December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Industry and Government "Guidelines" (Is Speech Next?)
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 5:15 PM 7/25/96, The Deviant wrote: ... >> Then, they added ITAR. And they want us to obey it. >> >> Finally, it seems, they're giving us "guidelines." Not law, Not ITAR. >> >> Next it's gonna be their their fondest desires, their preferences,and >> finally their whims. I was going to reply, but I have decided to follow the "speech guidelines" suggested by my local MiniTru authority figure. While the government does not demand that my words be cleared by them, they have made it clear that if I sign a "Good Citizen Pledge," and agree not to speak of certain things, that my problems with the government will be lessened, my export requests expedited, and my passage through Customs will be eased. --Tim May Seriously, I think there are serious "rule of law" issues arising out of these "consultations" between industry and government. Things are not spelled out, as Mindy Cohn of the Bernstein case so articulately has described, and people seeking clearcut decisions about what can and can't be exported find they get no answers. "We can't define an illegal export, but we know it if we see it." And actually not even this, as the decision often takes months or longer, or no response is ever received. (Was the ITAR violation t-shirt ever given a CJR or turned down for one? Though my personal view is that the t-shirt was a side issue, and a frivolous example, last I heard State was simply not responding one way or another.) Seems to me, and I'm sure to others, that the ITARs are a clear case of what lawyers call "overvagueness." And my joke about a "Good Citizen Pledge" is only partly a joke. The language of companies "coming to agreements" with the State Department, in exchange for expedited handling, is a dangerous trend. Carried further, it could create classes of companies and citizens, not all of whom would be treated equally under the law. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: [Rant]Re: Shell buys key escrow system from TIS
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 06:20 AM 7/25/96 -0400, Jim Ray wrote: >Will Rodger,<rodger(a)interramp.com> >Washington Bureau Chief of Inter@ctive Week, wrote: ><snips> >>Administration officials didn't return calls for comment, but it's clear >>that the Clinton-Gore team have their first "testbed" for trying out key >>recovery, or key escrow, proposals. > >Hmmm. A new meme, "key recovery" is lots better than "key escrow," but >I still wonder if I'm ever gonna see a journalist say, "'GAK,' or Govt. >Access to Keys for cryptography." I doubt we'll see many non-cyber-journalists saying "GAK", at least in print :-) But the name "Clipper III" seems to be catching on fairly well, which has the added benefit if connoting "yet another key-grabbing attempt after the previous two failures", which I like a lot. Key recovery is at least quasi-honest, unlike "key escrow"; I'd tend to call the Clintonista's scheme "key registration" though I've generally found that "master key system" gets the point across adequately. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # http://www.idiom.com/~wcs # Confuse Authority!

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CD Prices and Inflation
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 6:18 PM 7/25/96, jim bell wrote: >If what Duncan said were true, then you'd see music stores spring up which >sell ONLY the "Top-40 stock", but sell it for pre-CD vinyl prices. They'd >get all that business, and OTHER record stores would sell the obscure stuff. > That's not happening. Something not being talked about in any of the messages I've seen is the role of _inflation_. Those claiming CD prices are "too high" should consider inflation. (Caveat: I also consider CD prices "too high," in terms of what I'd _like_ to pay.) When I first started buying LPs, circa 1967, LP prices were usually around $4.88 (that figure rings a bell, no pun intended). Some discount prices were around $3.67, at a local PX (Post Exchange, a military store, usually having subsidized prices). I do recall paying $5.98 for some albums I wanted. And in those days the average working man's salary was under $10,000 a year, gold was $35-40 an ounce, a new 3-bedroom house in many areas cost $20-30K, a pound of hamburger cost less than a dollar, a copy of "Scientific American" cost either 60 or 75 cents (price increased) and a paperback book cost between 75 cents and $1.25. (These numbers are approximate, but mostly about right. Paperback books, for example, were at about 35 cents until the 60s, then moved to 50 cents, then to 60-75 cents, then hit the dollar point around 1970, the $1.95 point a few years later, then jumped to $2.95, $3.95, etc., and are now around $5.95 for most bestseller paperbacks. Again, don't quibble too much. A detailed check of paperback collections showing publishing dates and prices would pin these numbers down.) So, what do we have now? Salaries are 2-4x higher, gold is at $375 an ounce, a new 3-br house averages about $100K (and is 2x that in many places), hamburger is at $2-3/pound, "Scietific American" sells for $3.95 or $4.95, and paperback books go for $4.95. Roughly, then, everything on this list is 3-4 times more expensive than it was in the late 60s. So, those LPs I was buying for $4-5 should now cost $12-20, correcting for inflation/price rises. And yet I am able to find many CDs I want for $8.67 (Tower Records: "3 for $25" sales). And they never wear out. And they usually have 60 minutes or more music on them--at least the CDs I buy do--, compared to the paltry 35-40 minutes on most LPs of the past. I can also make flawless copies of CDs I borrow onto DATs. (A friend of mine has gone a bit far with this, borrowing thousands of CDs from libraries...he now has 3900 CDs recorded digitally.) So, while I "wish" CD prices were even lower, I'm paying a lot less in "real dollars" for more music today than I was paying 15 years ago or 30 years ago. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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RE: Noise: Re: Responding to Pre-dawn Unannounced Ninja Raids
by Bill Olson (EDP) 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

snow writes: > >On Wed, 24 Jul 1996, Bill Olson (EDP) wrote: >> Alan Horowitz writes: >> >Phil, >> >are you saying that you're a better businessman than Rush Limbaugh? >> >Can we see some 1040's, please? >> >> Rush Limbagh is a big fat *RICH* idiot. > > Big? yes. > Fat? I'd say so. > Rich? In relation to me, yes, and probably to you. > > Idiot? The man _got_ rich doing something he enjoys and is good at, >meanwhile you are working for the great satan. Who is the Idiot? Yes, I work for satan. But I am wealthy because of it. Nice guys finish last. My emphasis was that he was rich, not that he was an idiot. Personally, I think the guys an asshole, but I commend him for his capitolist efforts. BTW - I'm an idiot. Never said I wasn't. >

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Re: Schelling Points, Rights, and Game Theory--Part II
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 7:28 PM 7/25/96, janke(a)unixg.ubc.ca wrote: >Hello, Tim, > >I found your essay interesting, but would like to describe a >hypothetical situation and my ideas of how your notion of Schelling >points applies to you to see if I am correctly following your ideas: > >Suppose that I live in a rural area and >I know that my neighbour beats his children because I have seen them with >bruises before and too many times just to be from household accidents. >Since I am far enough away from him, the beating does not make enough noise >to distrub me from any of my activities. I am also planning on >moving in three years, so there is little danger that I will be a >victim if the children develop into violent criminals due, in part, >to their abuse. In this case, the "least action" reasoning seems to >tell me to do nothing. I mentioned "beatings" as a specific example of where the community may decide the costs of intervention are justified. In my view, concentrating on such "extreme" cases (beatings, Christian Scientist parents, etc.) is rarely useful, especially when most "interventions" are for so much less extreme cases. >On the other hand, the state might do some sort of calculation like >the following: > >(probability the children will become violent criminals) x >(cost of dealing with violent criminals) >-(cost of taking the children from the parent) Well, I don't believe any calculus of "probability the children will become violent criminals" is useful. We don't know if watching the Power Rangers will make an 8-year-old "turn into" a criminal at age 18. And so forth. >Am I following your ideas ok? :) > Check out the Friedman URL I gave for more details. The Schelling point view is more "energy conservation common sense" than utilitarian models usually have it. Thus, all of your talk about estimating the chances that someone will become a criminal in the distant future is not something an "energy conserver" (a lazy person, basically) will worry about too much. Especially, but not solely, because there is basically no way to predict the future. I might think that my neighbor, a Christian Fundamentalist, is raising warped kids. But this is his business, so long as I have don't have to pay for them or their ideas directly. They may turn out to be Dahmerian cannibals in 10 years, but they probably won't. And, in any case, I won't lift a finger to change their home environment. (Nor would my neighbor tolerate it--and he's got a Benelli Super-90 Tactical Shotgun, a lot more firepower than I have!) This last paragraph is pretty important. A lot of people realize they can't personally intervene with their neighbors, and so they seek the power of a mob or herd to enforce some law they themselves cannot or will not. "There ought to be a law!" is the most disgusting phrase in the English language. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: Netscape
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 05:15 PM 7/25/96 +0000, The Deviant wrote: >hOn Wed, 24 Jul 1996, jim bell wrote: >> That still doesn't make sense. >> First, there were laws. And we had to obey them. >> Then, they added ITAR. And they want us to obey it. >> Finally, it seems, they're giving us "guidelines." Not law, Not ITAR. >> Next it's gonna be their their fondest desires, their preferences,and >> finally their whims. >> What's wrong with this picture? Do I detect an ass-kissing contest? > >Yup.. thats it. And they said I was an idiot when I [Correctly] said >that Netscape wasn't activly fighting the ITAR. Agreed. Writing good crypto is certainly praiseworthy and desirable, but it does not "fight ITAR," per se. (It fights lack of crypto, which is not the same thing! Lack of crypto certainly needs to be fought, as well.) Writing the software and selling it domestically is, at best, "ITAR-neutral." Putting it on the net in the most unrestrictive way the State Department has previously approved of is also "ITAR-neutral." (Because such a method is, presumably, within the rights of anyone; we can conclude this because "the State Department said so.") A _PRO_-ITAR stance is one in which a company or person puts restrictions on his distribution of that software above and beyond what have historically been approved, particularly when prior distributions of software are still going on with those previously-approved restrictions. They may be absolutely entitled to do so, but that's still pro-ITAR. For a small and uninfluential company, the significance of doing that is minor, but for Netscape, it's crucial because it practically invites the government to set a new precedent beyond what they (the government) previously thought they might get away with. >> You should have told them that if they're "evaluating their guidelines" that >> means that NO future modifications to those guidelines is binding on you, >> since it is not part of ITAR and is CERTAINLY not part of the law. You >> should have memorialized the contact with a lawyer's letter, and promptly >> posted the new version of your software with whatever version of the >> precautions (MIT, RSA, or?) you felt most happy with. >> > >Or even better... Lets look at this version... > >lets say I get my internet service from MCI. Now lets say I put crypto on >my web page. When somebody from out of the country visits my web page, >and downloads it, who's exporting it? Them, MCI, or me? I'd say they >are, and I doubt ITAR covers this... this is one of those things thats >covered in "guidelines". ;) umm.... Smooch Smooch? Yes, if we really oppose ITAR, we should kill it by insisting that the government fully document it at every turn. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Re: Twenty Bank Robbers -- Game theory:)
by John Brothers 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 03:03 PM 7/25/96 -0400, you wrote: >On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, jim bell wrote: >> My guess? They all agree to kill whoever made that suicidal rule. >> Otherwise, all but two would end up dead. >But the people at the start of the line know that if they don't >hang together, they will end up dead, and if that they act purely >selfishly only the last two will benefit. Because they want to stay >alive, a better solution for the first person to propose equal shares, >which would be opposed by the last two players, but supported by the rest. >He could also split the money only amongst the first half of >the gang, since he only needs half the votes. doh! I just spent 20 minutes writing all the logic to that down! And to absolutely maximize his chances of staying alive, he will divide the money amongst robbers #2 - #10, and give up his own share. At least, that is the proposal I would make were I under those circumstances. John --- John Brothers Do you have a right not to be offended?

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Welcome to tmdgmet
by majordomo＠ayla.avnet.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: Twenty Bank Robbers -- Game theory:)
by Hal 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I think the best way to approach this problem is to first try to solve it assuming there are only two robbers rather than 20. Then once you have that figured out, try it for three, then four, and so on. Keep in mind that 50% support is enough for a proposed distribution to pass, you don't need a strict majority. Hal

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Re: Twenty Bank Robbers -- CLARIFICATION
by Erle Greer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 01:13 PM 7/25/96 -0500, you wrote: >Igor Chudov wrote: >> >> Here's a puzzle for our game theorists. >> >> Twenty cypherpunks robbed a bank. They took 20 million bucks. Here's >> how they plan to split the money: they stay in line, and the first guy >> suggests how to split the money. Then they vote on his suggestion. If >> 50% or more vote for his proposal, his suggestion is adopted. >> >> Otherwise they kill the first robber and now it is the turn of guy #2 >> to make another splitting proposal. Same voting rules apply. >> >> The question is, what will be the outcome? How will they split the >> money, how many robbers will be dead, and so on? >> > >I forgot to say what the GOALS are. The goals of every individual >cypherpunk are (in from highest to lowest priority): > >1. Stay alive >2. Get as much money as possible >3. Keep as many cypherpunks alive as possible, all other things being equal. > > - Igor. > Well, two wrong so far, here it is: Nobody knew that robber#17 was Steven Segal under-cover. #1 proposed an even split, so Segal broke his neck. The other 18, being CypherPunks, were smart enough to make tracks. One dead, Segal 20 million, and no lines rehearsed. vagab0nd(a)sd.cybernex.net http://ww2.sd.cybernex.net/~vagab0nd/index.html Visit web page for public key.

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