December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

snow wrote: > Thorn: > > Alec wrote: > > The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is > > merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception. > > If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin" > Somewhere in the above three lines, someone is making a hell of an > asumption. See also "The Euthphro Question", plato. Humans do OK with simple issues, example: 1 + 1 = 2. Especially true if the issue has no inherent moral/ethical tie-in. Once you get past the simple, however, you start seeing motivation, personal imperative, etc., which leads to hidden agendas and lies. When I speak of God, I'm not surrendering any personal power, or subscribing to your God concept necessarily (e.g. Plato), I'm just defining an object of pure reason that is free of human self-interest, for sake of argument. > > A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and > > said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but > > rather the liberty to do what you ought to do". > No, real freedom is being able to decide for yourself what you ought to > do--or--who the hell decides what I ought to do? My example shows that real freedom goes hand-in-hand with responsibility. A person could interpret my example in a way that "what you ought to do" is defined and controlled by external parties, but that was not my point or the point of the original author.

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[Noise] From The Onion
by Adam Shostack 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

SATAN TO REVISE BAR CODE SYSTEM NEW YORK--Responding to retailers' calls to "streamline the Mark of the Beast," Satan announced plans Monday to make significant changes in the UPC symbol by the end of the millenium. "All men, small and great, rich and poor, slave and free, shall bear the mark of the beast," Satan said. The mark, "666," now hidden in every UPC symbol, may be more effective if taken off products and burned directly onto consumers' foreheads or hands, according to The Father of Lies. Said National Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan: "As foretold in the Book of Revelations, it shall come to pass that no man shall be able to buy or sell without the Mark of the Beast." The new bar code system will be introduced through a series of televised public-service announcements featuring Friends star Matthew Perry and Satan, who will appear as a beast with seven heads and ten horns. http://www.theonion.com/onion3102/index3102.html -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume

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[Noise] From The Onion
by Adam Shostack 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

SATAN TO REVISE BAR CODE SYSTEM NEW YORK--Responding to retailers' calls to "streamline the Mark of the Beast," Satan announced plans Monday to make significant changes in the UPC symbol by the end of the millenium. "All men, small and great, rich and poor, slave and free, shall bear the mark of the beast," Satan said. The mark, "666," now hidden in every UPC symbol, may be more effective if taken off products and burned directly onto consumers' foreheads or hands, according to The Father of Lies. Said National Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan: "As foretold in the Book of Revelations, it shall come to pass that no man shall be able to buy or sell without the Mark of the Beast." The new bar code system will be introduced through a series of televised public-service announcements featuring Friends star Matthew Perry and Satan, who will appear as a beast with seven heads and ten horns. http://www.theonion.com/onion3102/index3102.html -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume

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RE: greed and the internet
by Internaut 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Will you send some references for Internet II and the government hubs? Thx, Internaut ---------- From: Attila T. Hun[SMTP:attila@primenet.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 1997 08.32 PM To: cypherpunks Subject: greed and the internet -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- greed and the internet our network provider (MCI) has been gradually burying our T1 trunk and the effective feed has been reduced to 1200 baud from 1.56 Megabaud; that, and add 20 seconds to 5+ minutes of packet hold, and it is now worthless. they claim they will have increased capacity, but there are no pressing big money commercial interests on this feeder --so when? Problem is not just here --everywhere; the greedy commercial bastards have oversold their network space intentionally as they are bucking for per packet and timed usage charges which are currently prohibited by the FCC and the state PUCs. The FCC is the key since other than the local network, which is burdened with the costs of the trunk, everything is regulated by the FCC which is trying to totally eliminate the state PUCs in the 105th Congress, Newt's mouth not withstanding. The FCC agreed to review the matter, capitulating to big greed interests, which will make the Internet a rich man's toy. $19.95/month plus access charges will increase to thousands of dollars per month; slow networks make toast of the free hours and overtime kills. Without the creative input of the multitude, there will be no content, so why have a net other than for commercial purposes? suites the misinformation cabal just fine. Well, the FCC granted a reprieve --for the moment. but will come up again, and again, until it passes. The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay before play basis. That, and it gives control of information to the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white' -above sin. Universities are being bought off with the 'Internet II' proposal which provides super trunks of over 600 Megabaud capacity, a 400 times improvement. All of this feeds into five stategically placed super-hubs where Uncle's shadow government can monitor everything. The Internet was supposed to be our freedom: freedom of information and government in the sunshine, but government is proving it is still bigger, faster, and badder by using draconian rules of illegal regulatory agencies. agencies which are usurping rights limited to the legislative branch. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMubOW704kQrCC2kFAQE0gQQAxrkUhyX5wl+dZ/i6ajMJXAD7f+gpvc6Z CBik+g62RqWrMbOblfLRubhEIWUfK2FQxIBRJ+0cQezCH4IfM1CxbytJ4Cx3BBBs GwHGuhTfLnGVnuCAugguRdNUrd/tXaN47pAVqmg330XvLlTJqha8ODPsi2b+7qst 2z8qbOW0cqo= =M9c5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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RE: greed and the internet
by Internaut 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Will you send some references for Internet II and the government hubs? Thx, Internaut ---------- From: Attila T. Hun[SMTP:attila@primenet.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 1997 08.32 PM To: cypherpunks Subject: greed and the internet -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- greed and the internet our network provider (MCI) has been gradually burying our T1 trunk and the effective feed has been reduced to 1200 baud from 1.56 Megabaud; that, and add 20 seconds to 5+ minutes of packet hold, and it is now worthless. they claim they will have increased capacity, but there are no pressing big money commercial interests on this feeder --so when? Problem is not just here --everywhere; the greedy commercial bastards have oversold their network space intentionally as they are bucking for per packet and timed usage charges which are currently prohibited by the FCC and the state PUCs. The FCC is the key since other than the local network, which is burdened with the costs of the trunk, everything is regulated by the FCC which is trying to totally eliminate the state PUCs in the 105th Congress, Newt's mouth not withstanding. The FCC agreed to review the matter, capitulating to big greed interests, which will make the Internet a rich man's toy. $19.95/month plus access charges will increase to thousands of dollars per month; slow networks make toast of the free hours and overtime kills. Without the creative input of the multitude, there will be no content, so why have a net other than for commercial purposes? suites the misinformation cabal just fine. Well, the FCC granted a reprieve --for the moment. but will come up again, and again, until it passes. The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay before play basis. That, and it gives control of information to the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white' -above sin. Universities are being bought off with the 'Internet II' proposal which provides super trunks of over 600 Megabaud capacity, a 400 times improvement. All of this feeds into five stategically placed super-hubs where Uncle's shadow government can monitor everything. The Internet was supposed to be our freedom: freedom of information and government in the sunshine, but government is proving it is still bigger, faster, and badder by using draconian rules of illegal regulatory agencies. agencies which are usurping rights limited to the legislative branch. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMubOW704kQrCC2kFAQE0gQQAxrkUhyX5wl+dZ/i6ajMJXAD7f+gpvc6Z CBik+g62RqWrMbOblfLRubhEIWUfK2FQxIBRJ+0cQezCH4IfM1CxbytJ4Cx3BBBs GwHGuhTfLnGVnuCAugguRdNUrd/tXaN47pAVqmg330XvLlTJqha8ODPsi2b+7qst 2z8qbOW0cqo= =M9c5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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by CV Communications 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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No Dimitri??
by William H. Geiger III 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of days. I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started? - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii(a)amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Logic, not magic. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMuexAI9Co1n+aLhhAQGcIAQAkEhaPi0bljU274ZXgkjU3rXFmIrUS4dm OEm0CqTH0eGDYHyftEyGdwI8ibKukC9SVpgG8bzgKHP+O4tjXJN+afcVAHbTxaMy uVqxgsvOexUR0tFKVCQ7MySMwCyDudCSbsDgf8Ox2swISwmIOqaxwLrBF5DqDy9w G6JNq5gUruo= =hIV+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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No Dimitri??
by William H. Geiger III 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of days. I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started? - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii(a)amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Logic, not magic. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMuexAI9Co1n+aLhhAQGcIAQAkEhaPi0bljU274ZXgkjU3rXFmIrUS4dm OEm0CqTH0eGDYHyftEyGdwI8ibKukC9SVpgG8bzgKHP+O4tjXJN+afcVAHbTxaMy uVqxgsvOexUR0tFKVCQ7MySMwCyDudCSbsDgf8Ox2swISwmIOqaxwLrBF5DqDy9w G6JNq5gUruo= =hIV+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
by Asgaard 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote: >The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument. A semantic comment: We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people using tcp/ip email don't think about this as using the Internet. Another list I'm on has recently set up a Hypermail site on the Web, mingling transparently with the list, for those who are overwhelmed by 100 posts a day (it's a proffessional list unrelated to computers per se). When people here about it they say: 'Wow, I didn't know you had access to the list on the Internet too!' It's treated the same on television, in the US as well as here in Sweden, Internet = Web and nothing else. It will be hard for us who have been around for a while, and to fresh computer litterates who know something of what's behind the screen, to relearn the use of the term 'Internet'. But we will eventually have to accept it or become 'dinosaurs', that's the way language evolution works. Asgaard

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Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation (fwd)
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 05:20 PM 1/23/97 +1100, proff(a)suburbia.net wrote: ... >The catch is that positive votes are inherently more valuable than >negative votes, since to obstruct progress requires a number of votes >equal to the outstanding proposals, but to move forward a proposal only >requires a number of votes equal to the proposal. Blind obstructionism >(and blind advocacy) are uneconomical. That's the point of having >more than one vote to potentially spend on an issue, with potentially >more issues than you can vote on all of them. You will have to pick >you battles carefully if you want to avoid being lost in the noise. > Here you risk the media controlling the vote even better. First they push a tearjerker proposal early in the year to swallow up all of the votes, then they ask for special interest legislation to protect their respective monopolies on grounds of ecology, (one paper means more trees, one TV station means clearer communication, etc.) ... >For reciprocity, it's possible to charge off percentages in the >win/lose case to bias the power concentration: if your side wins, it >costs you one less token then you voted, etc.. Again, initial >bylaws are established through constitution provision: "we have the >power that is being shared, therefore, these are the weights". > ... This prompts people to vote with who they think will win as opposed to how they feel. In this case the media shows numerous charts showing a pending landslide in thier favor. What do you know, everyone voted in favor of the media just to recycle votes. ... >Heh. I was thinking more in terms of its value as a cascade trigger >to increasingly complex social organisms in the Internet implementation >space. Representational democracies (republics, really) came about >because of rate limits on communication. The US could not elect a >president by popular vote because there were no methods of verification, >and communication rates were limited by travel time. Therefore, the >US has an Electoral College. But a side effect of this structure is >a bias for bipartite seperation of interests, instead of seperation >into as many interest groups as it takes to do the job of mapping the >interest space. This bias is not removed because the bipartite >interests have (and must continue to have) the power concentration. >This leads to continued "wasted vote syndrome", where people vote >for the lesser of two evils instead of voting their conscience... an >effect of mass psychology. Similar pressures prevent the polling >times from being changed to opening at 8am EST and closing at 8am EST >to prevent early returns from earlier time zones influencing the >outcome of elections before people in later time zones have even voted. >For example, Ross Perot got almost 20% of the vote in the 1992 >election, but 0% of the electors. He would still have lost, given >the actual values. There is actually a case in US history where the >winner of the electoral vote lost the popular vote... the president >was not chosen by the people, but by the electors. ... Actually, our founding fathers thought that the people were morons, a reasonable assumption since news carried so slowly and most people were more worried about how to survive the winter than how to read. ... >Yep. The reason I went weighted, by the way, was the volunteer >nature of the project. In theory, number of vote tokens spent >should be proportional to willingness to actually volunteer. As >you point out, there could be feedback here as well: for instance, >if a proposal passes, if it is completed, the tokens spent on >the vote could be refunded to those who voted for it. If it dies >on the vine, the tokens could be refunded to those who voted >against it. Being right would give you more license to participate, >and being wrong would not, etc.. Again, a matter for the initial >bylaws. ... Not being right, just agreeing with the concensus. Remember that most of the Germans eventually agreed with Hitler, that did not make them right. By the way, the general populus is still mostly morons. Even with a higher literacy rate. Most of them seem to use it to read the National Enquirer and Hollywood based publications.

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