December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
by ichudov＠algebra.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Adam Back wrote: > > > Igor Chudov <ichudov(a)algebra.com> writes: > > so we have myself, Jim Choate, and you who colunteer to host > > mailing lists for the distributed cypherpunks. > > > > I have already created majordomo(a)algebra.com and cypherpunks(a)algebra.com. > > > > We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini > > mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed > > cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such > > a list. > > Please do. The list is called cypherpunks-hosts(a)algebra.com. Use majordomo(a)algebra.com to sub-scri-be. - Igor.

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Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
by Adam Shostack 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

ichudov(a)algebra.com wrote: | i have already set up majordomo(a)algebra.com and cypherpunks(a)algebra.com | and can join. While compitition is great (I think this is the second replacement list?), having multiple cypherpunks lists is a recipie for confusion and cross-posting, which there is already enough of on cypherpunks. So, I'll make the following suggestion: Those who are willing to create lists work together so that there is a single subscribe address, and a single submit address, however many exploders exist. I would personally prefer to see the name cypherpunks lay fallow for a while, and suggest cpunks or something similar. Note that I'm doing nothing more than making a suggestion. Take it as my considered enthusiasm for the continuation of cypherpunks as a list. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume

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Re: Filling Power Vacuums
by joburger＠world.evansville.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> heh. perhaps "leadership" involves more than posting. perhaps there > is a way to have "leadership" without hierarchy. perhaps "leadership" > is not equivalent to "management". perhaps sometimes > you win by losing, and lose by winning. perhaps water is so powerful > because it is lower than all that which it flows around. Could you explain the bit about having leadership w/o hierarchy. Yes ,if there is an informal leadership such as what Tim was refering to, then their is no heirarchy. However, as soon as people get designated as 'leaders' or 'moderators' then one has to have heirechy in that no matter how the various pieces of a system are arranged, they have to be arranged somehow, even completely at random. imho (which you seem to have so many of) you could spare the pseudo-Zen BS. > <Now, of course, the message is being sent that Sandy Sandfort is in some > <sense the de facto leader, being that he determines what traffic goes out > <to the main list and what traffic gets bounced into the flames list. In > <fact, I'll make a prediction: The media will see that he is the chief > <censor and arbiter of worthiness and will increasingly contact him for the > <Official Point of View on various items they are interested in. > > timmy, why are you so upset about the media angle? why do you give the > slightest damn what the media thinks? answer: because you want to be > the one they call when they want to know what the cypherpunks think. > you want them to pay attention to the cypherpunks. in short, you would > like to have the glamor of a leader, without any of the responsibility. I don't think he was suggesting this in the least, he is quite capable of defending himself. I don't particularly like the idea of someone that I had no part in choosing being seen as representative of my views. > I think you would be surprise at the realization that "leaders" exist > in those so-called "anarchies" Key word 'so-called' An anarchie is usually a conceptual ideal that is never reached, sorta like a democracy. > <I am resentful and suspicious of people who _do_ step into the > <"power vacuum" to lead and control. > <Now I grant you that Sandy's form of leadership and control is relatively > > apparently in your brain, "lead" == "control" Dosen't it though? How else can one 'lead'. Even if just by setting an example the leader is changing the follower's actions, e.g. controlling. Granted the follower is volentarily submitting to this control, but it is control none the less. Most other cases of hard leadership are not as nice. Josh

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Re: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
by Jeremiah A Blatz 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Eric Cordian <emc(a)wire.insync.net> writes: > A Gilmore Supporter writes: > > > You know, I was vaugley offended by John's comments about whiny > > cypherpunks, until I read this message and realized who he was talking > > about. John, thank you for your years of service to the cypherpunk > > community 9such as it is), > > John Gilmore's only contribution to Cypherpunks has been to provide > a box. I can't even remember the last time he contributed something of > interest to the list, and he certainly ranks as one of the least > frequent contributors of substance over the years. You have obviously never administered a Unix system. Just runing a machine with a few users requires some effort, I've done it. Managing a mailing list, especially one this immensly huge, has got to be one of the bitchliest things on earth. If you think running a majordomo for cypherpunks is just a matter of "providing a box," why don't you try it? > > and Sandy, thanks for your well-intentioned > > (but doomed from day one) efforts to take some resopnsibility for our > > current mess. It's too bad things had to end in such a pissy way, but > > anyone who wants to dole out blame should realize that in an anarchy, > > all members are responsible for the maintainence of freedom. > > Sandy, unlike Herr Gilmore, has been a major contributor of substance > to the list since its inception, and hopefully he will continue to be > in the future. The idea that he should moderate the list was of > course a silly one, but for reasons which do not reflect badly on him > in the least. > > What Mr. Blatz fails to realize is that the "problem" which certain > people tried to solve never really existed. The quality of the > Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the amount of signal, not > by the amount of noise, unless one is getting ones feed of the > list via 1200 baud long distance UUCP. RTFM well-intentioned. And please excuse my lack of gratuitous "scare quotes." (There, is that better?) List members complained. John said there was a problem, Sandy belived him and foolishly volunteered to "moderate" (enough scare quotes for you?) the list. Maybe John has grown into a crumudgen after his years of taking care of toad.com, but he's all but out of the picture now. At least he had the common sence to realize that he was not able to run the list in an appropriate manner and force a carthises. Better that then to let the list die out from continuing moderation. > The notion that the list was ever threatened by the humour of Dr. > Vulis, or the one line bot-spammed insults about Tim May's heritage, > is an absurd one. No one should have had any problem ignoring such > material, and only a politically naive fool would buy this as the > excuse for the blatant usurpation of the list by Gilmore and crew. Agreed. I do, after all, read the "unfiltered" list. But you have no right to tell Mr. Gillmore what to with his machine and his time. Perhaps 10 days is not enough to get a smooth transition to another system, but it does have the nice effect of moving people to action. You could take a look at the literature on social loafing for a full explanation. Cordially, Jeremiah Blatz "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBMwFYPskz/YzIV3P5AQHS7QMAyccuA5PbahXKAsJNsYdOKZHODqJng7C1 aTJ/BYYefEHngNSSb9KNu/deGUV1rrq/+zbmWfEDQYxBANpkJ6O60w8kJmR7iAI2 iH3TpsuKokazw/3QCLWrKh6AO9TNxwJ1 =2iSj -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:18:46 -0600 (CST) > From: ichudov(a)algebra.com > Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" > John Gilmore wrote: > > A pentium is definitely up to this task. I've been running it the > > whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and > > general computing). Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB) > > because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on > > the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the > > msg times out). Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each > > sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will > > have dozens running at the same time. My approach to this problem has been to use a 1G drive and mount the entire file system on it. Swap and MS-Dos each get their own partitions. This allows the use of the entire drive as a buffer. I am in the process of adding another 1G in approx. two weeks with the intent of moving /home off the main drive. This not only gives the system more space but the users as well. I set swap to 4x main ram. I use Linux and have it as one giant partition even though suggested is blocks of 16M, works for me (YMMV). Would be minor to monitor df and alarm when it gets to 200M or something. I must admit however that I am looking at a faster mbrd. and a bigger hard drive in the immediate future to make up for the extra load I expect. Had not really planned on the remailer project however... > > You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or > > some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the > > lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without > > unsubscribing. The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of > > email a day; more when the list is under attack. How about dumping the bounces to /dev/null? I shure don't care if some bozo's (other than mine that is) mailbox goes away. > > Make sure that every message sent to the list gets into at least > > two logfiles -- on separate partitions, in case one fills up. At > > least if you want to have an archive of what's been sent. I have no intention of acting as an archive. I personaly see that as a 'subscriber' issue. Potentialy even a business if the archive were suitably databased. Of course with the distributed model any member is potentialy capable of this. > > > I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to > > > MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest. I would certainly be interested in your involvment with the Distributed Remailer. > > The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into > > dealing with problems. Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but > > there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make > > trouble for you just because they like to. Spending a day or two > > cleaning up the mess is just part of the job. Check your level of > > committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you > > won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the > > list's existence into crisis again. It's not a "set it up and forget > > it" kind of operation. I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills. > Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day > instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce > faster and not clog the queue. I like this idea very much. Myself I would set it for like 4 hours or so and if it couldn't be delivered then bye bye. Another motivation for selective sites to operate as archives without themselves being remailers. Another issue related to this is at what point to unsubscribe accounts. It seems to me that if the address times out some number of times it should be deleted. Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway? Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Cypherpunks-resources FAQ for alt.cypherpunks
by omegam＠cmq.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I am under the assumption that alt.cypherpunks or alt.privacy.cypherpunks or some such will come into existence shortly. With that in mind, I have decided to create a FAQ of pointers to resources on cypherpunk issues. The goal is to help eliminate the "What is PGP?" and other newbie-questions that are bound to come up even more frequently in a newsgroup scenario. A FAQ such as this has probably long been appropriate, but it didn't really occur to me until just now. Not being a cryptologist or adequate coder, this is one way I feel I can contribute. It's hard to have discussions when people haven't even looked at the background information before piping in. I don't pretend that a FAQ can prevent this, but it's worth a shot anyway. I started typing away about two hours ago and came up with the following. It's pretty shaky since it's late and it's Mardi Gras. Feel free to comment in public or private. Please, Please, Please make suggestions and provide relevant pointers. Obviously, I will be doing a lot of research over the next few weeks to fill in this very bare outline. If you disagree with this or feel its useless... fine. Please tell me and explain all your reasons why. Besides, I'm doing it regardless. Here's what I'm chewing on so far.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Cypherpunks Resources FAQ version 0.000000001 This document lists resources for readers interested in Cypherpunk issues and goals. The primary intention of this document is to get new readers to the group to explore the background issues which cypherpunks attempt to address. It also includes pointers to many common cryptographic implementations and tools. Furthermore, pointers and instructions for various mailreaders are provided to help users filter out some of Usenet's inevitable noise and glean the most useful information they can from this newsgroup. This FAQ does not attempt to explictly define who the Cypherpunks are or answer questions about the philosophy. That is an exercise for the reader who utilizes the pointers within to find the answers on their own. After exploring these resources, the hope is that the reader will become a more effective and insightful contributor to alt.cypherpunks -- even if he/she is opposed to the goals of the group. This FAQ is propagated monthly to alt.cypherpunks. It can also be obtained be sending email with the subject and/or body "get cpunks faq" to omegam(a)cmq.com. When information in the FAQ is updated, I will also post a "what's new" message for those who are interested in reading additions/corrections without wading throught the entire FAQ again. -------*********------- Author's Note/Disclaimer ---------*********--------- I maintain this FAQ solely on a voluntary basis. I am doing this because I think it is necessary. It would be contrary to the anarchic nature of the Cypherpunks to attempt to call this an official FAQ of the Cypherpunks group. Anyone who disagrees with the editing decisions and pointer selections I have made in this FAQ is free to. What this means is that you are encouraged to send comments, suggestions, corrections, new questions, and answers to me. I may or may not include them in future revisions of the FAQ. I do ask that somewhere in the subject of your mail redarding this FAQ you include the text "(CFAQ suggest)", so procmail can file such comments appropriately and I can address them in a more efficient manner. If I use your suggestion or answer to a question, I will attribute the reference to you unless you request that I do not. You are free to create your own Cypherpunks-resources FAQ if you don't like mine. - Scott _______________________________________________________________ Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com> PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get a copy of my public key _______________________________________________________________ -------*********--------*********---------********--------*********------ Premliminary Outline Section 1 Introduction and General Information? Q1.1 Does this newsgroup have a charter (No but, Tim's "official" charter. Eric's note at end of original toad.com welcome message) Q1.2 How did the group get started? (Need a brief history of group as well as any pointers to early history information and posts, also include pointer to early wired article) Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want? (May's Cyphernomicon, CSUA Berkely site, Others?) Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list? Are there archives? (Brief explanation, quote Gilmore's message? point to the usual archives? Note: check and note if arhive site still prevents IE usage) Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals. (point to Epic, EFF, etc sites which all have good archival information on political crypto causes even if many cpunks have strong disagreement with some of these groups. also point to Cryptography(a)c2.net and coderpunks lists) Q1.6 What have the cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that merely talk about them?(Pointers to anon remailers, Linux-IPSEC project, Mykotronx scandal--really need a good pointer here, more. Mention of course that many who call themselves cypherpunks are professionals in the computer security field.) Q1.7 Im interested, what can I do? Pointers to current projects, i distributed DES crack Q1.8 Quick n' Dirty Glossary: ie. GAK, TLA, etc. Section 2 Crypto in Action Q2.1 Pointers galore to PGP resources. Q2.2 Point to Schneir's site and include biblio info on Applied Crypto Q2.2 Point to cryptlib toolkits Q2.3 RSA, of course. Q2.4 pointers to disk encryption utilities for various platforms Q2.5 pointers to Raph's remailer site and other remailer info sites. remailer software. software to make remailer usage simpler (premail, PIdaho) Q2.6 pointers to the various digital cash purveyors and to explanations of how Chaumian digital cash works. Q2.7 pointers to Apache-SSL site and info, Stronghold, Q2.8 SSH Q2.9 Pointers to sites describing how various types of crypto actually work Q3.0 But how do I know if it's good crypto? Point to snake Oil FAQ? Schneir's essay. Use your brain. Section 3 Crypto and the Law Q3.1 Froomkin's site obviously.. John Young's also obvious. EFF has a good archive too. Karn case, others. Q3.2 Pointers to government's current position on crypto. ie. EAR, ITAR Q3.3 Pointers past Clipper failure info. Section 4 Who's who & (recent) History of Crypto. Q4.1 A couple of good general history sites exist. also Codebreakers bibliographical reference. Q4.2 Enigma is a common question, point to relevant sites. Q4.3 Whit Diffie--some interviews etc are available Q4.4 Bruce Schneir same Q4.5 Phil Z and PGP history and interviews. Q4.6 Jim Bizdos Q4.8 Dorothy Denning (go to include the enemy too) Q4.7 Pointers to news on breaks of ciphers Q4.8 NSA site. (Others? I'm getting sleepy, names escaping me at the moment) Question 5 Help! I want to know more but I'm drowning in noise Q5.1 Point to filtered lists in existence Q5.2 news2mail gateways as source of list. mail filtering tools come into good use. point to a bunch of them. Q5.3 Point to kill-file info for various newsreaders and platforms. Possibly include generic examples from own experience and list user's experience who wish to contribute. Specific names will be ommitted of course. Also score information for those interested Q5.4 point to information on other utilities and verification-type schemes _______________________________________________________________ Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com> PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get a copy of my public key _______________________________________________________________

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alt.cypherpunks lives! was Re: New group
by Robert A. Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks) c'punks: I went to look at news this morning, and I found the following: In article <33019178.58622842(a)news.demon.co.uk>, paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk (Paul Bradley) wrote: | Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time | someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only | temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on | usenet!... It seems this alt.cypherpunks thing was a lot easier than it looks. Either that, or I have a clueful newsadmin. :-) Cheers, Bob -- Robert Hettinga e$ 44 Farquhar Street Boston, MA 02131 The e$ Home Page: http://thumper.vmeng.com/rah/

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please
by Monica Fisher 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Please take mfisher(a)ash.nl off of your mailing list

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Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
by chefren 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On 11 Feb 97 at 3:54, John Gilmore wrote: > I've come to the conclusion that I'm not willing to host the > cypherpunks list any more. It's not the true assholes that brought me > to this decision; it's the reaction from the bulk of people on the > list: suspicion, flamage, and criticism with every attempt to improve > things. I noticed few people volunteering some of their own time, > money, or machines to help out. Almost all the suggestions were > advice for *other* people to implement: Hm... In the year 1513 or 1514 someone who could be an Honourable Member of this list (if one could be one...) wrote: > There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more > perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, > than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order > of things. <Niccolo Machiavelli, Il Principe> Please stop at looking too much on how people scream about your new ideas and continue this list the way you like it!!! I think it's Your Machine and we have to respect your decision to pull the plug, nobody should blame you for that, but please listen a little to the 1000+ people who don't scream and are obviously happy with the list and respected your right to do the "sandy filter experiment". +++chefren

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New group
by Paul Bradley 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi all, Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on usenet!... Best regards... Paul Bradley

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