December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

American Dissident Voices Weekly Transcripts
by Adv Info 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--------------------------------------------------------------- American Dissident Voices is a world wide radio program which deals with topics of interest that concern people of European descent. We hope that these weekly articles will offer the reader an opposing viewpoint to the major news media. For more information, please e-mail advinfo(a)dreamon.com. Please visit our World Wide Web Site at http://www.natall.com. For patriotic books and tapes, visit National Vanguard Books Online Catalog at http://www.natvan.com/cgi-bin/nvbctlg.txt?url=www.natall.com -------------------------------------------- American Dissident Voices Online Radio http://www.natall.com/radio/radio.html Dresden: A Real Holocaust by Kevin Alfred Strom The night of February 13th, and February 14th, Valentine's Day, mark an ominous anniversary in the history of Western Civilization. For beginning on the night of February 13th, 1945, occurred the destruction of Dresden. On the eve of Valentine's Day, 1945, World War II in Europe was nearly over. For all practical purposes Germany was already defeated. Italy, and Germany's other European allies, had fallen by the wayside. The Red Army was rushing to occupy vast areas of what had been Germany in the East, while the allies of the Soviets, the British and Americans, were bombing what was left of Germany's defenses and food and transportation infrastructure into nonexistence. And what was Dresden? Most of you have probably heard of Dresden China, and that delicately executed and meticulously detailed porcelain is really a perfect symbol for that city. For centuries Dresden had been a center of art and culture, and refined leisure and recreation. She was a city of art museums and theatres, circuses and sports stadia, a town of ancient half-timbered buildings looking for all the world like those of medieval England, with venerable churches and centuries-old cathedrals gracing her skyline. She was a city of artists and craftsmen, of actors and dancers, of tourists and the merchants and hotels that served them. Above all, what Dresden was, was defined during the war by what she was not. She had no significant military or industrial installations. Because of this, Dresden had become, above all other things that she was, a city of children, of women, of refugees, and of the injured and maimed who were recovering from their wounds in her many hospitals. These women and children, these wounded soldiers, these infirm and elderly people, these refugees fleeing from the brutal onslaught of the Communist armies to the East, had come to Dresden because it was commonly believed at the time that Dresden would not be attacked. Its lack of strategic or military or industrial significance, and the well-known presence of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilian refugees and even Allied prisoners of war, seemed to guarantee safety to the city. Surely, it was thought, not even a the most powerful and determined enemy would be so depraved and sadistic, and so wasteful of that enemy's own resources, to attack such a city. But the people of Dresden, who were happily attending the cinema or eating dinner at home or watching the show-horses in the circus on that fateful night were wrong, wrong, wrong. And their leaders were also wrong, for the city was virtually open and undefended and only minimal civil defense preparations had been made. Dresden's population had almost doubled in the months before the attack, mainly as a result of the influx of refugees from the Eastern Front, most of them women and young children. According to British historian David Irving, the briefings given to the British bomber squadrons before the attack on Dresden were curiously different. In one, the soldiers were told that their target was the railway center of Dresden. In another, they were told that the target was a poison-gas factory. In yet another, they were told that the target was a marshalling-grounds for troops in the city. Another was told that the target was a major arsenal. These were all lies. The only marshalling-grounds for what few troops were in the area were located well outside the city. The arsenal had burned down in 1916. There were factories for toothpaste and baby-powder in Dresden, but none for poison gas. There were, in fact, no fewer than eighteen railway stations in Dresden, but only one was hit by the bombing, and that was barely touched and in fact was operating again just three days later. According to copious documentation unearthed by David Irving from the archives of the American and British governments, the point of the attack was in fact to inflict the maximum loss of life on the civilian population and particularly to kill as many refugees as possible who were fleeing from the Red Army. In achieving these goals it was highly successful. It was thus planned and executed by those at the very highest levels of the British and American governments, who to attain their purposes even lied to their own soldiers and citizens, who to this day have never been told the full story by their leaders. How was this devastating effect accomplished? At 10:10 PM on February 13th, the first wave of the attack, consisting of the British Number 5 Bomber Group, began. The attacking force consisted of about 2,000 bombers with additional support craft, which dropped over 3,000 high explosive and 650,000 incendiary bombs (more commonly known as firebombs) on the center of the city. Incendiary bombs are not known for their efficiency per pound in destroying heavy equipment such as military hardware or railroad tracks, but are extremely effective in producing maximum loss of human life. The loads carried by the bombers were over 75 per cent incendiaries. In fact, the goal of the first wave of the attack was, according to British air commander Sir Arthur Bomber Harris, to set the city well on fire. That he did. The lack of any effective anti-aircraft defenses allowed the bombers to drop to very low altitudes and thus a relatively high degree of precision and visual identification of targets was achieved. Despite the fact that they could clearly see that the marked target area contained hospitals and sports stadia and residential areas of center city Dresden, the bombers nevertheless obeyed orders and rained down a fiery death upon the unlucky inhabitants of that city on a scale which had never before been seen on planet Earth. Hundreds of thousands of innocents were literally consumed by fire, an actual holocaust by the true definition of the word: complete consumption by fire. The incendiaries started thousands of fires and, aided by a stiff wind and the early-on destruction of the telephone exchanges that might have summoned firefighters from nearby towns, these fires soon coalesced into one unimaginably huge firestorm. Now such firestorms are not natural phenomena, and are seldom created by man, so few people have any idea of their nature. Basically, what happened was this: The intense heat caused by the huge column of smoke and flame, miles high and thousands of acres in area, created a terrific updraft of air in the center of the column. This created a very low pressure at the base of the column, and surrounding fresh air rushed inward at speeds estimated to be thirty times that of an ordinary tornado. An ordinary tornado wind-force is a result of temperature differences of perhaps 20 to 30 degrees centigrade. In this firestorm the temperature differences were on the order of 600 to 1,000 degrees centigrade. This inward-rushing air further fed the flames, creating a literal tornado of fire, with winds in the surrounding area of many hundreds of miles per hour--sweeping men, women, children, animals, vehicles and uprooted trees pell-mell into the glowing inferno. But this was only the first stage of the plan. Exactly on schedule, three hours after the first attack, a second massive armada of British bombers arrived, again loaded with high explosive and massive quantities of incendiary bombs. The residents of Dresden, their power systems destroyed by the first raid, had no warning of the second. Again the British bombers attacked the center city of Dresden, this time dividing their targets--one half of the bombs were to be dropped into the center of the conflagration, to keep it going, the other half around the edges of the firestorm. No pretense whatever was made of selecting military targets. The timing of the second armada was such as to ensure that a large quantity of the surviving civilians would have emerged from their shelters by that time, which was the case, and also in hopes that rescue and firefighting crews would have arrived from surrounding cities, which also proved to be true. The firefighters and medics thus incinerated hadn't needed the telephone exchange to know that they were needed--the firestorm was visible from a distance of 200 miles. It is reported that body parts, pieces of clothing, tree branches, huge quantities of ashes, and miscellaneous debris from the firestorm fell for days on the surrounding countryside as far away as eighteen miles. After the attack finally subsided, rescue workers found nothing but liquefied remains of the inhabitants of some shelters, where even the metal kitchen utensils had melted from the intense heat. The next day, Ash Wednesday and Valentine's Day, 1945, medical and other emergency personnel from all over central Germany had converged on Dresden. Little did they suspect that yet a third wave of bombers was on its way, this time American. This attack had been carefully coordinated with the previous raids. Four hundred fifty Flying Fortresses and a support contingent of fighters arrived to finish the job at noon. I quote from David Irving's The Destruction of Dresden: "Just a few hours before Dresden had been a fairy-tale city of spires and cobbled streets .... now total war had put an end to all that. ...The ferocity of the US raid of 14th February had finally brought the people to their knees... but it was not the bombs which finally demoralised the people ... it was the Mustang fighters, which suddenly appeared low over the city, firing on everything that moved .... one section of the Mustangs concentrated on the river banks, where masses of bombed-out people had gathered. ... British prisoners who had been released from their burning camps were among the first to suffer the discomfort of machine-gunning attacks .... wherever columns of tramping people were marching in or out of the city they were pounced on by the fighters, and machine-gunned or raked with cannon fire." Ladies and gentlemen, on this program I can only give you a bare glimpse of the inhuman horror of the holocaust of Dresden. In Dresden, no fewer than 135,000 innocent victims died, with some estimates as high as 300,000. More died in Dresden than died in the well-known attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. More destruction befell Dresden in one day than was inflicted on the whole of Britain during the entire war. And yet you haven't been told. I urge every one of you to read The Destruction of Dresden by David Irving. I assure you, after reading Irving's book, you will never take seriously the Establishment's version of what happened in that war again. What you ought to take seriously, though, is the fact that the same clique that controlled the traitorous Roosevelt and Churchill governments, whose hatred of our race and civilization and whose alliance with Communism were the real causes of the holocaust of Dresden, still controls our government and our media today. It is they who are pushing for a disarmed, racially mixed America. It is they who promote the teaching of sodomy to our young children. It is they who are destroying our industrial infrastructure in the name of a global economy. It is they who created the drug subculture and then also the police state agencies which pretend to fight it. The hour is very late for America and indeed for all of Western civilization. But if patriots will heed our call, then there is no reason for despair. For the enemies of our nation may have power, but their power is based on lies. Won't you help us cut through the chain of lies that holds our people in mental slavery? ~ National Alliance Main Page http://www.natvan.com

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Re: Copyright violations
by nobody＠wazoo.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dr.Dimitri Vinyl K[unt]OfTheMinute has been fired for stealing blow jobs. _<_ (_|_( Dr.Dimitri Vinyl K[unt]OfTheMinute \-._|_,-, `-----'

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Want a job as a Crypto Researcher or Research Scientist?
by John Gilmore 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I can't vouch for any of it, and I have my doubts about any company that decides whether you're a "Scientist" based on whether you have a PhD, but I thought it might put a cypherpunk in a position to do some good: Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 13:30:52 -0700 From: dnne <dnne(a)enol.com> Subject: CRYPTO RESEARCHER OR SCIENTIST John, I would greatly appreciate your recommendation. I am trying to fill a RESEARCHER and a RESEARCH SCIENTIST position for a leading East Coast developer of encryption technology for the computer industry. RESEARCHERS will work in conjunction with Research Scientists on research projects covering all aspects of cryptography--from algorithms, to protocols, to implementation. RESEARCHERS also provide technical support to software developers and to the company customers through consulting and educational activities. RESEARCHERS should have at least a B.S. and preferably an M.S. in computer science, mathematics, or a closely related field. Solid exposure to cryptography either through practical experience or within academic pursuits is highly desirable. RESEARCH SCIENTIST candidates should have a Ph.D. or equivalent research experience in cryptography. This company provides a very competitive compensation and benefits package as well as company paid relocation benefits. Thanks, Dan Barrus Senior Technical Recruiter Cutting Edge Technologies Voice: 800-881-7212 Fax: 801-373-3024

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No Subject
by Paul Bradley 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Cypherpunks, I have newsgrouped some further alt.groups as follows: alt.cypherpunks.announce alt.cypherpunks.technical alt.cypherpunks.social I recommend that posters crosspost as follows: All messages, apart from announcements, go to alt.cypherpunks. Alt.cypherpunks.announce holds announcements only and it`s contents is disjoint with that of alt.cypherpunks. Alt.cypherpunks.technical: All posts to this group are also crossposted to alt.cypherpunks alt.cypherpunks.social: All posts to this group are also crossposted to alt.cypherpunks. The newsgroup names are pretty self explanatory but technical is just for technical discussion and social for discussion of social and political issues regarding cryptography. With this crossposting scheme readers can either get the whole content or just the part they want easily without filtering working overtime, for instance, I might choose to subscribe to alt.cypherpunks.technical and only dip into alt.cypherpunks.social when I felt like a flame war ;-) As I said, its only a guideline of course and post what you want where you want but i feel this organisation allows people to easily choose the part of the discussion they want to read. Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
by Leonard Janke 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"Timothy C. May" <tcmay(a)got.net> writes: > [...] > Given that _political_ discussions of crypto are now encouraged in > _talk_.politics.crypto (emphasis added) rather than sci.crypt, do you think > political and social essays dealing with crypto anarchy, offshore > databases, undermining governments, etc., will be welcome in the "comp" > hierarchy? > > I rather doubt it. And I would bet that if comp.org.cypherpunks is ever > approved, those who dislike crypto anarchy and sociopolitical chatter will > use the "comp" name to try to suppress such discussions. > [...] I think that the statement of our desire to create a new group should clearly indicate that the discussion group is of a special nature due to the tight integration of technical and political discussions. Cypherpunks are trying to achieve political goals through technological means, so it is difficult, and not regarded as desirable to produce a false dichotomy for discussions. As an example, we could cite the Linux newsgroups like comp.os.linux.misc. Linux is a piece of software written to help achieve a political goal, and, thus, in the Linux groups it is not considered off-topic to philosophize about these goals or the future as and after Linux knocks Microsoft out of the market. :) talk.politics.crypto and sci.crypt can, then, easily be argued against since the discussions there are much more restricted than what we desire. > [...] You really think whoever is spamming the list with ASCII art and > broke into Paul's account to post hundreds of "John Gilmore is a > cocksucker" posts will back off because of the "dedication" of some? To the > perverse personality, this is merely a greater challenge and temptation. > [...] Given that you have been on the list a great deal longer than I, I do respect that you may have deeper insights into the mind of the "perverse personality" than I do. I, however, am not aware of evidence that the person or persons behind the disruptions since the middle of last year would try to interrupt a democratic USENET creation vote. My recollection of the history is that the initial attacks were directed at you personally. Dr. Vulis was blamed for them and thus, apparently, became the target of nasty e-mailings to his site. He responded to this by spamming the list with rather large articles on Armenian war crimes and forwardings of the messages. At that point Gilmore booted Vulis. Gilmore then became a target of attack and, it seems that many (presumably) innocent bystanders were unwittingly subscribed to the list in an effort to cause more work, and, hence, annoyance to Gilmore when they complained about the unwanted mail. At this point many new personalities seemed to materialize out of nowhere bent on doing nothing more than fueling flame wars. Then the "moderation experiment" (fiasco)... I do not see in this evidence, however, that any of the disruptors would target the process of the creating a new group USENET group. At first, the the disruptor could easily have rationalized that anonymous, personal attacks were fair play, since anarachists favour no explicit rules with regards to speech. After Vulis was removed by Gilmore the disruptor could then rationalize that "anything goes" since list had then passed from a state of anarchy to one with Gilmore trying to decide who could or not be on the list. (I do not think that these conjectued rationalizations are valid myself, but am just trying to give an my thoughts on the psychology of the "perverse personality".) USENET nesgroup creation is whole new ball game, however. There are explicitly defined rules and the process is intended to be democratic. If my guess as to the identity of the person masterminding the attacks is correct, that person seems to have democratic sympathies or, at least, be strongly opposed to even hints of censorship, so I do not think he would attempt to disrupt the process of deciding if a new group is created or not since that would both be inferring in a democratic process and an attempt to prevent a group of people from creating a discussion group, and thus, himself, becoming a censor. (This makes me think that given that the process is intended to be democratic, it may be more fitting that a more anarchisticly method is used to create an "alt.*" group for cyphepunks than the democratic one used to create a "comp.*" one.) In any case, if you have deeper insights than mine into the mind of the disruptor, or evidence that he or she or them would try to disrupt a comp.* newsgroup creation proces, I would be eager to hear them. Leonard

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[Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
by John Gilmore 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:24:37 -0800 (PST) From: Declan McCullagh <declan(a)well.com> To: fight-censorship(a)vorlon.mit.edu The Netly News Network http://netlynews.com/ A List Goes Down In Flames by Declan McCullagh (declan(a)well.com) February 12, 1997 The plan for the cypherpunks mailing list was simple. It was to be an online gathering place, an intellectual mosh pit, dedicated to the free flow of ideas and personal privacy through encryption. Of course it caught on. From its modest beginnings connecting a few friends who lived in Northern California, it quickly grew into one of the most rowdy, volatile lists on the Net: Cypherpunks typically piped more than 100 messages a day into the mailboxes of nearly 2,000 subscribers. And the list became a kind of crypto-anarchist utopia. Populated by pseudonymous posters with names like Black Unicorn, it was a corner of cyberspace where PGP signatures and digital cash were the norm -- and there were no rules. Then yesterday came the news: The list was being evicted and faced imminent shutdown. In an e-mail seen 'round the Net, John Gilmore, Electronic Frontier Foundation cofounder and list maintainer, announced that he was no longer willing to provide a virtual home for the cypherpunks. In a post entitled "Put Up or Shut Up," he described how his efforts to improve the list through moderation were condemned, how technical problems were consuming more of his time, how pranksters had tried to subscribe the entire U.S. Congress to the list. How this experiment in crypto-anarchy had failed. He gave the cypherpunks 10 days to find new lodgings. "The last straw for me was seeing the reaction of the list to every attempt to improve it. It was to carp, to cut it down, to say you're doing everything wrong," Gilmore told me yesterday night. One of the first employees of Sun, Gilmore quit after eight years -- a millionaire more interested in pursuing ideas than dollars. But his experiment with the list has left him weary. "If everything I'm doing is wrong, I'm clearly not the right person to host the list," he said. "I would like to see some other structure in which the positive interactions on the list could continue. I'm not trying to create that structure anymore," he added. Instead, he would try the only true crypto-anarchist solution: "I'm handing it over to members to do what they wish with it." The cypherpunks first pierced the public's consciousness when Wired magazine splashed them across the cover of the second issue. The Whole Earth Review and the Village Voice followed soon after. The name "cypherpunk" came to be synonymous with a brash young breed of digerati who were intent on derailing the White House's encryption policies and conquering cyberspace. This was crypto with an attitude. Gilmore was typical of the breed. Monthly Bay Area meetings of the 'punks were held in the offices of Cygnus, a company he started to provide support for the free Unix alternative, GNU. But the veteran cypherpunk came under heavy fire in November 1996, when a loudmouthed flamer flooded the list with flame bait and ad hominem attacks on various members. Finally, Gilmore, ironically, gave him the boot -- and incited an all-consuming debate over what the concept of censorship means in a forum devoted to opposing it. In a society of crypto-anarchists, who should make the rules? The mailing list melted down. By last month, it seemed, more messages complained about censorship than discussed crypto. Indeed, for months Gilmore seemed unable to do anything right. He tried moderation, which proved to be even more contentious, raising the question of empowering one cypherpunk to decide what was appropriate for others to read. One member of the group, in effect, would be more equal than the rest. And why would members take the time to write elaborate, thoughtful articles on crypto-politics if their treatises might not make it past the moderator's keyboard? After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk meeting in September 1992. In an essay summarizing the reasons for his departure, he wrote: "The proper solution to bad speech is more speech, not censorship. Censorship just makes opponents of 'speech anarchy' happy -- it affirms their basic belief that censors are needed." After all, May pointed out, the list ended up on Gilmore's toad.com machine only by happenstance -- it almost was housed on a workstation at the University of California at Berkeley. Ownership of the computer with the database of subscribers did not mean that Gilmore owned the cypherpunks. "Whatever our group once was, or still is, is not dependent on having a particular mailing list running on someone's home machine... and it cannot be claimed that any person 'owns' the cypherpunks group," May wrote. The cypherpunks have responded to Gilmore's eviction notice. List participants generally have halted the incessant attacks on Gilmore, and now the discussion has turned to how to continue this experiment in online anarchy -- while preventing one person from ever again having absolute control of the List. Within hours of Gilmore's announcement, posters were tossing around ideas of a distributed network of mailing lists that would carry the cypherpunk name, and other 'punks likely will migrate to the more tightly controlled coderpunks and cryptography lists. But for the true believers in crypto-anarchy, only one solution is adequate: Usenet. "There is no 'nexus' of control, no chokepoint, no precedent... for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups," Tim May wrote. That, in the end, is what defines a cypherpunk. ###

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Re: crypto restrictions
by Derek Atkins 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

anand abhyankar <anand(a)querisoft.com> writes: > 1) is it illegal to develop an encryption tool (s/w) outside the US > which uses > 40 bit size session keys and then import that s/w inside of > the US. Not currently. -derek -- Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) URL: http://web.mit.edu/warlord/ PP-ASEL N1NWH warlord(a)MIT.EDU PGP key available

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Re: alt.cypherpunks
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > alt.cypherpunks has been newgroup'ed, and I belive rm'grouped. Smart, > > consiencous newsadmins probably did not honor the rmgroup, as > > alt.cypherpunks should be acceptable, but most newsadmins are too > > overworked to actually look at most of the crap that comes through. > > For example, it hasn't received any messages on my news server, > > probably because the one upstream removed it. > > Seems I'm getting alt.cypherpunks.announce (empty), but not > alt.cypherpunks or any of the others that show up as newgroup'ed on > Deja News... Are they alive and well elsewhere? All of the groups have showed up at news.demon.co.uk (not suprisingly since I grouped them) and I haven`t seen any cancels. I was sent a message by some net.scum about him nearly rmgrouping alt.cypherpunks.announce because it was unmoderated but he got a stern "cypherpunk" talking to for that ;-) Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Re: [Declan McCullagh: "A List Goes Down In Flames," from Netly]
by Adam Back 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Declan McCullagh <declan(a)well.com> writes: > But the veteran cypherpunk came under heavy fire in November 1996, > when a loudmouthed flamer flooded the list with flame bait and ad > hominem attacks on various members. Finally, Gilmore, ironically, gave > him the boot [...] > > Indeed, for months Gilmore seemed unable to do anything right. He > tried moderation, which proved to be even more contentious, [...] > > After the expulsion, some of the longtime list denizens left > angrily, joining the 700 subscribers who had departed since the > controversy began. One of those was Tim C. May, a crusty former Intel > engineer who prides himself as the organizer of the first cypherpunk > meeting in September 1992. Tim left when the moderation experiment started, not after John unsubscribed Dimitri, and blocked him from re-subscribing. What does `crusty' mean as applied to a former Intel engineer? Adam -- print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

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Re: alt.cypherpunks
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> I haven't seen any rmgroups for alt.cypherpunks. Paul Bradley's > newgroup for alt.cypherpunks is nowhere to be found, but Mike Duvos' > newgroup made it onto the Net, and was reposted the next day by > usenet(a)news.myriad.ml.org. My local server (news.demon.co.uk) recognised my newgroup for alt.cypherpunks and it was immediately visible, I don`t know how far it propogated or where Mikes took effect but whatever the distribution we seem to have reached most main news servers. > alt.cypherpunks.announce > alt.cypherpunks.social > alt.cypherpunks.technical > > and, of course... > > alt.fan.paul.bradley What else? > The latter has been rmgrouped because it was not discussed in > alt.config. No, It was rmgrouped because the cmsg had no charter, I posted this to see if the Cabal would respond. > I might suggest that deliberately tweeking the whiskers of the Cabal by > gratuitous newgrouping is unlikely to bode well for alt.cypherpunks. Quite so, I recieved mail the next day from a member of said clique telling me he "considered rmgrouping alt.cypherpunks.announce" because it was unmoderated. Needless to say he got a stern talking to for that one ;-) I guess I just have to much of a partiality for a little whisker tweeking ;-) > > -- > Eric Michael Cordian 0+ > O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division > "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" > Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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