December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Java
by AwakenToMe＠aol.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Since I am new here, and its probably been asked one billion times... .. I've only heard a tiny bit about a problem that existed with security and Java about 6 months ago.... What was it?

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whitehouse queries files on political enemies
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

what goes around comes around.. this reminds me of the old stories of Nixon and the various NSA domestic programs mentioned by Bamford ("Puzzle Palace") - ------- Forwarded Message Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:23:03 -0700 (MST) To: fsnw-l(a)freespeechnews.com From: Free Speech <ron(a)grapevinenews.com> Subject: [FreeSpeech-NewsWire] Files White House Got >From POLITICSnow I just picked up the following Associated Press story, dated June 7, 1996: "The Clinton White House acknowledged Friday it sought and received more than 300 FBI files, including those of House Speaker Newt Gingrich's press secretary, former Bush chief of staff James A. Baker III and other prominent Republicans." - - -- Associated Press=20 Also, in POLITICSnow is another press story which states, "Blankley, Baker, Fitzwater Among 330 FBI Files White House Got". The following is from that story: Friday, June 7, 1996=20 =A9 The Associated Press=20 "WASHINGTON (AP) - The Clinton White House acknowledged Friday it sought and received more than 300 FBI files, including those of House Speaker Newt Gingrich's press secretary, former Bush chief of staff James A. Baker III and other prominent Republicans.=20 Republicans immediately denounced the White House, saying President Clinton's aides misused the FBI to get information on political enemies. A top GOP leader suggested hearings were in order.=20 White House spokesman Mark Fabiani called it "an innocent bureaucratic mistake" and said there was no indication anyone reviewed the FBI background material.=20 But among the unanswered questions were who at the White House knew the files had been gathered and why they were kept at the White House rather than returned to the FBI after the error was discovered by a low-level White House employee sometime early in 1994.=20 The files - some 330 in all, almost all of them former employees of Republican administrations - were stored in the White House security office's vault in late 1993 and early 1994, the White House said." My comments: I have heard posters say, "So what, I'm alive. I have a job. Why should I care about this Whitwater stuff?" I, myself, have defended President Clinton in POLITICSnow when they were known as PoliticsUSA. I have held firm that there is no evidence against the Clinton's. This still holds true, in my opinion, with Ron Brown, Vince Foster, etc. I stated that Travelgate, Whitewatergate, Troopergate, etc. were much to do about nothing. Maybe they are in themselves. Although, I am on the verge of making a public apology in POLITICSnow based upon the evidence that is beginning to come forth. For anyone who counts himself a liberal, a basic premise is to have the government out of our personal business unless there is an absolute need for it. What apparently has happened is that the Whitehouse, for purely political reasons, obtained 330 FBI files almost all of them former employees of Republican administrators. This violates, in my opinion, the basic principles of liberalism. I will answer any posts in this news forum by anyone who terms himself a liberal and at the same time defends, what I consider, Nazi behavior. I want to add that I have the highest respect for the FBI and all the other Intelligence Services of the United States. The buck stops somewhere, and it is not with the FBI. Best regards, Bob Drake snoball(a)mail.idt.net - ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- End of Forwarded Message

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Re: Snake Oil on the Water...
by Deranged Mutant 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On 16 Jun 96 at 11:19, Alan Olsen wrote: > I recieved this on another list. The snake oil is starting to flow pretty > heavy. I expect it to get worse... > >Subject: Windows 3.x or Win95 FREEWARE Mail/Encryption Program > >X-UIDL: 788ef8d7083cb4f8e94b2c20183773b5 [..] > >At the following two sites, you may download the FREEWARE Pegasus Mail > >program version 2.3.3 16 bit for windows 3.x or a version for WIN95. The > >unique thing about it, besides its simplicity and that it's a great mail > >program better than Eudora, it has a built in encryption program that is as Actually, it is much better than Eudora and has plug-ins for encryption. The native encryption sucks, and the author warns against it (it's there as a demo of the crypto API!). There *is* a PGP-plugin (w/source) that uses PGP to encrypt or decrypt mail and add keys. The last version I saw had shitty key management... if you're emailing somebody at an address different from the key-id, it didn't prompt you for another key (and Pegasus 2.2 sent it out in cleartext!). I don't like the add on much, but many others do, aware of that flaw and some others. Seems like the person who wrote that message doesn't know what he's talking about. There's a difference between snake oil and a user who doesn't understand a product. Rob. --- No-frills sig. Befriend my mail filter by sending a message with the subject "send help" Key-ID: 5D3F2E99 1996/04/22 wlkngowl(a)unix.asb.com (root@magneto) AB1F4831 1993/05/10 Deranged Mutant <wlkngowl(a)unix.asb.com> Send a message with the subject "send pgp-key" for a copy of my key.

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[noise] Re: SM3 ?'s (fwd)
by Damien Lucifer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:09:45 -0400, eron(a)in-sync.com (Eron Cohen) wrote: Don C. Jenkins wrote: > 3) Now that I am almost convinced that SM3 is the software I wish to > purchase - I was wondering if there is a way to make it automaticley edit > out irritating clients from my schedule? Or insert an extra million in my > bank account? > Yes. We are planning to ship this effect with 3.5 version of Razor next month. Not only does it remove the clients from your schedule but from your entire life using an advanced form of pattern recognition. We need to get this approved by the bureau of tobacco and firearms before we are allowed to start shipping it though, because in some places its considered a munition. Once approved we hope we can open our market to annoyed people in other fields too.

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Re: Snake Oil on the Water...
by Rich Burroughs 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 07:03 PM 6/16/96 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: >On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, Rich Burroughs wrote: > >AFAIK, "The Pegasus Team" is still one person, and he's not an idiot. The >person who sent the message was some random idiot, not a member of "The >Pegasus Team." Just thought that should be straightened out lest any >unwarranted ill will be left floating around... Yes, you're absolutely right, and I owe the Pegasus author a big apology for assuming that this guy who thinks there's a 40 bit domestic version of PGP had anything to do with Pegasus. I really misspoke, and I apologize. BTW, I've heard that Pmail is progressing quite well. Rich ______________________________________________________________________ Rich Burroughs richieb(a)teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~richieb See my Blue Ribbon Page at http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/blueribbon U.S. State Censorship Page at - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/state New EF zine "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause

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Re: Snake Oil on the Water...
by Lou Zirko 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: richieb(a)teleport.com, cypherpunks(a)toad.com, alano(a)teleport.com Date: Sun Jun 16 22:36:53 1996 Now if we could get John to get it to work with the 32-bit version it would be even better. Lou Z. > John's program is available at: > http://www.aimnet.com/~jnavas/winpmail.html > > I really think the Pegasus team would do better to mention > that John's program is available, rather than try to steer > people away from PGP. PGP JN makes using the basic email > features of PGP more streamlined than most other mail > packages I've used (except Private Idaho, which is not a > full-fledged email package). I think it would be better to > mention that both options exist, rather than seeking to > convert the masses away from PGP, which is unlikely to > succeed anyway, IMHO. Lou Zirko (502)383-2175 Zystems lzirko(a)c2.org "We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 iQEVAwUBMcTTBstPRTNbb5z9AQEWpAgAoNBF5M+xyRPRAQjdBR8NpMgwEsb2lROj Now8Ku1ovNvTDc+Y7ZJ8InN1pyM53SA72LIjXFX5Tjughbkkh+96nXCsdEvStBO2 im4rIA+cv2QmcdhGVScgokUkY5BRiNnCc92bH+zOxmQMx/r7Bx8779phChQebF6P 01GP94Vlwh8lVoM7T4LCfAto5tsgMQVIwbOoYqkeDU1SpSQvz030XpQqaN94oCTh le7foWIWMJuAD26zetsbWgeEfZpIL/9M4e1dfDbcSJsBBN3Wwzs2XxKYqgbsz7ob 18+4toNNblt6WcPnhvbFzSgf3v0sYUAEcqawg/7QJiCBjNGncBwjJw== =nVgx -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Snake Oil on the Water...
by Alan Olsen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:27 PM 6/16/96 -0700, Rich Burroughs wrote: >For those people who want to use PGP with Pegasus, there's a >nice little plug-in for Pegasus called PGP JN, by John Navas, >which allows you to choose to encrypt with PGP (you need to >have a copy) instead of the Pmail crypto. It has a few small >drawbacks, IMHO, but I found it much easier to use than PGP >shell interfaces that require cutting text to the clipboard >first. It is very nice with one major drawback. It does not support conventional cryptography with PGP. This means that it is absolutly useless for use with nyms. (Which is one of my main uses for PGP in the first place.) Other than that... --- Alan Olsen -- alano(a)teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon

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Re: Snake Oil on the Water...
by Alan Olsen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:47 PM 6/16/96 +0000, Deranged Mutant wrote: >Actually, it is much better than Eudora and has plug-ins for >encryption. The native encryption sucks, and the author warns >against it (it's there as a demo of the crypto API!). I found this part out later. My mistake for not checking the program docs. [snip] >Seems like the person who wrote that message doesn't know what he's >talking about. That is very true. He is clueless and unrepentantly so. His private e-mail to me indicates it in spades. (As well as being rude and insulting for even challenging his claims about the program.) >There's a difference between snake oil and a user who doesn't >understand a product. True. I was not aware that the author of the program had warned against using it as well. Evidently this guy did not read that part as well... --- |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano(a)teleport.com |

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How to find out if the list is down? [ADMINISTRIVIA]
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Subject: Is the list down? No (and the delay between your posting and my reply is just because I've been too busy to read it all.) In general, if the list isn't reaching you, it's occasionally because mail is stuck between toad.com and your machine, occasionally because the list is stuck, and occasionally because you've been dropped. If you send mail to majordomo(a)toad.com saying who cypherpunks it will send you a list of everyone on the list, possibly including you. (If it doesn't include you, then you know what's wrong.) If mail's working, it usually answers pretty fast. If mail's jammed, sometimes this kicks it off, and sometimes it stalls, just like a posting you sent to the entire 1200+ list members would (:-). And sometimes there's something more subtle going on, in which case you can send mail to cypherpunks-owner(a)toad.com and/or owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com. Of course, it could be that nobody's posted anything to the list in the last 24 hours, which probably means that Hugh's implemented the Signal-to-Noise-Improver Bot and nothing made it past the filters..... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # http://www.idiom.com/~wcs # Dispel Authority!

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Re: Slander of Catholic Church
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 5:59 PM 6/11/96, attila wrote: > too strong, moroni --remember _our_ values; not those of a critic. > last night in FHE I covered the first mob in Jackson County where Bushop > Partridge turned the other cheek to make it easier after the first was > tarred by the mob. Thanks, Attila. I think Paul Penrod and the Archangel Moroni missed my main point. I was not singling out Mormonism for special criticism, just using it as an example of a "cult" or "religion" which is in many ways even more "outre" to many of us than Scientology is. Belief that a body rotting in the ground can be baptized into one's church is at least as odd as believing that Mankind is descended from the survivors of spaceships fleeing an evil overlord. My point, in using Catholicism as an example (interesting that only my brief lines on Mormon views were critiqued...Catholicism must indeed be nearly extinct on lists like ours), was that one's man's "criminal cult" is another man's "holy religion," and that the "net.war" declared by some on the Church of Scientology is little different than having a similar war against Catholics, Rosicrucians, Parsees, whatever. The Church of Scientology is no more a cult than is LDS or Catholicism....it is just much newer. Believing that clam consciousness suffuses our thoughts is no stranger than are the bizarre claims of most religions. Talk is of some belief systems being "cults" and others being "religions." When the Constitution speaks of "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion...," it is clear that this is not just for "recognized" and "established" religions. (Before the usual suspects jump in with quibbles, this does not mean that a religion may not be constrained in various ways. The laws against polygamy constrained the Mormons, the laws against certain drugs constrained certain Native American religions, etc. Constitutional law classes are the best forum to debate this.) I am no supporter of the CoS, nor of any religion. I find it hypocritical for folks bashing the "clams" and bombarding a.r.s with copyrighted CoS material to now be whining that the clams are "unfairly" using a.r.s. I also find it "unsurprising" that the CoS is taking steps to preserve what it thinks is its copyrighted, proprietary material. (I am not interested in debating the ins and outs of whether the NOTS material should or should not have been published, nor of whether some investigators went overboard in investigations of Grady Ward, etc. This stuff is boring ephemera to me, just another religious war.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: Zimmerman/ViaCrypt?
by vin＠shore.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Edgar Swank noted: >There was a big discussion recently on alt.security.pgp about PRZ and >ViaCrypt. Apparently Phil now wants to produce his own commercial >version of PGP and has "requested" ViaCrypt to sell back the >commercial rights under threat of a lawsuit if they don't. > >Phil disagrees with ViaCrypts new "business" version of PGP which >apparently encrypts all messages with an employer-supplied public key >in addition to any specified by the employee. ViaCrypt has their side >of the argument on their web page. <http://www.viacrypt.com/> PRZ is becoming a businessman. Nothing wrong about that -- business is what makes the cars shine and the toilets flush. To me, however, it seems self-servingly pious to seek to reclaim previously sold rights on the grounds that a corporate customer should not have the right to set up an escrow key for company communications. There's another debate due about whether an employee should have the right to also -- on company time, over company nets, etc. -- use e-mail with a private (non-escrowed) encryption to secure personnal communications. I, predicably, think the employee should have such a right -- as part of the permissible and acceptable "personal space" allowed an employee. (Just as he/she should be allowed to make unmonitored personal phone calls, and go to the bathroom when the urge strikes.) Today, this level of privilege is probably an artifact of white collar or professional employment; not an employee's or citizen's right, but rather a perk associated with the independence granted a valued employee who expects and demands it. >The basis of the possible lawsuit would be that ViaCrypt violated >their agreement not to put any "back door" into any product with the >PGP name. Whether the "business version feature" could be defined as a >"back door" would be the crux of the argument. That's an argument that should be laughed out of court. And off the Net even sooner. (Although Phil is so much of a hero to most of us, for his own productive efforts and for having endured the DoJ's squeeze, he probably got an outrageously tolerant hearing on alt.security.pgp.) Steve Reid <root(a)edmweb.com> added: >>IMHO Phil Zimmerman has good reason to object to the mutant version, >>if >>it's going to cause the PGP name to somehow endorse escrow. Balderdash! There is nothing corrupt or nasty about escrow, per se -- the issue is who gets access to the escow key and under what conditions. If the legitimate owner of the protected information totally controls the escrow key, there is no issue. In business communications, key escow is just another dimension in backup. >>If there really is a demand for escrow, maybe cypherpunks could create a >>One Time Pad escrow service. Different custom 'keys' could be produced, >>depending on who's asking for the data... <G> There is a demand for escrow. For a while, seven or eight years ago, I collected tales of all the weak commercial crypto system which were then being busted. One of the most striking things was the number -- four or five commercial products that I recall, Lotus 1,2,3 being the most prominent -- which were cracked by legitimate administrators desperate to retrieve something encypted by an employee who had lost his/her key. Suerte, _Vin Vin McLellan +The Privacy Guild+ <vin(a)shore.net> 53 Nichols St., Chelsea, Ma. 02150 USA Tel: (617) 884-5548 <*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>

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Re: Remailer Operator Liability? [NOISY RESPONSE]
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>> distributed to a minor who was using a nym. I think pressure on anonymous >> remailers is going to increase as various groups complain that the paw >> innocent widdle kiddies are "vulnerable to corruption"(or some bullshit like >> that) because their age can be hidden. Read the decision. The CDA _may_ be > >This is true. Yesterday evening I interviewed the director of >enforcement for a TLA here in DC. He expressed his concern about >anonymous remailers and anonymity online. (More on this later.) > >The word here in DC is "accountability." You can always attract government officials by offerering them other bureauspeakisms, like "plausible deniability" and "convenient leak mechanisms for 'reputable sources'". # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # http://www.idiom.com/~wcs # Dispel Authority!

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Re: Does information want to be free?
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>>I confess I was amused by how he described those Internet anarchists >> who delighted in publicizing books that should in fact be restricted. > I am amused (though I am not taking sides) by the general lack of >attention or rhetoric that "crypto-anarchists"/"cypherpunks"/whatever, >otherwise privacy respecting people, usually espouse. Many of us do care about those privacy issues - computers are very good at combining information from multiple sources, and crypto is about the only technology that lets you change the balance of power away from computerized centralization to individual-controlled decentralization. On the other hand, the phrase "books that should in fact be restricted" is viewed by many of us to be a synonym for "the empty set"; "books about government leaders which should be restricted" is an even emptier set, whether they're true, bogus, or some of each. In general, a Cypherpunk(tm) approach to protecting private information is not to advocate laws against distributing it, but to build tools to let you protect it while giving it to people that you _do_ want to have it; perhaps to use individual contracts to protect the information, but also to build tools to support contractual agreements and identify leaks. In some cases, boycotting organizations that violate privacy is a good idea (and building alternatives can support boycotts); flaming them for rudeness is another approach :-), and helping organizations understand the privacy implications of what they're doing and helping them use privacy-preserving methods instead of hanging an SSN on everything is another good cypherpunks activity. On the other hand, building anonymous publishing systems so people can blow the whistle on their government officials is a good thing, even though it may be used by people rude enough to pry into people's private lives. Also, while publishing one politician's cancer experience may be rude, publishing a recent American president's growing senility should have been done more aggressively, as should publishing the moral failures of his Vice president.... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # http://www.idiom.com/~wcs # Dispel Authority!

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Re: Remailer Operator Liability?
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 05:53 PM 6/15/96 +1000, Zed wrote: > >Unlikely. The use of anonymous remailers was given as a reason for why it >was impossible to effectively determine if indecent material was being >distributed to a minor who was using a nym. I think pressure on anonymous >remailers is going to increase as various groups complain that the paw >innocent widdle kiddies are "vulnerable to corruption"(or some bullshit like >that) because their age can be hidden. Read the decision. The CDA _may_ be >declared constitutional if there was an effective and reliable way of >preventing minors from accessing "indecent" material - which anonymous >remailers make harder to do. However, even if remailers didn't exist, kiddies could still be unknowingly reached via mailing lists (anyone know who came up with the term "email exploder" that the Court used instead of "mailing list"?), freenet accounts, un- age verified accounts opened anywhere on earth, or borrowed accounts. The decision mentioned some of this. DCF

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UK users about to get clippered
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

If you live the UK, brace yourself for HMG's "Clipper" annoucement later this week. Look particularly carefully at the escrow agencies. - Remailereuters

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Re: Remailer Operator Liability?
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 05:53 PM 6/15/96 +1000, Zed wrote: >On another front, anonymous remailers were brought up in the latest hearing >of the Church of Scientology's court case against Dennis Erlich. Judge Whyte >expressed concern that trade secret status could be destroyed simply by >posting information through an anonymous remailer. Of course, trade secret status could also be destroyed by posting something straight without anonymity. And were one judgment proof one's exposure as the poster would be meaningless. Even a completely non-anonymous account may be hard to trace if you have a common name and the account is based somewhere far from home. If you open an account on a Dutch system using your (common) name, you might be hard to find. It's the ease of publication not the anonymity that makes the Net dangerous for trade secrets. DCF "If the most common given name on earth is Mohammed and the most common surname is Lee does that mean that the most common name is Mohammed Lee?"

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Re: pretty good reputation
by Hal 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Here are some references to the material on reputations I mentioned before. ftp://prospero.isi.edu/pub/papers/security/insurance-cccs94.ps * Charlie Lai, Gennady Medvinsky, and B. Clifford Neuman. Endorsements, Licensing, and Insurance for Distributed System Services, In Proceedings of 2nd the ACM Conference on Computer and Communication Security November 1994. This discusses some concepts related to extending trust relationships through a network. ftp://research.att.com/dist/mab/policymaker.ps "Decentralized Trust Management" by Matt Blaze et al This suggests a formal way of specifying trust relationships among keys. In effect you have little programs that get activated by certain keys, or by certain signatures. It is a very flexible methodology which could be adapted to many ways of specifying trust relationships. http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/sdsi.ps (or .tex) "Simple Distributed Security Infrastructure" by Ron Rivest and Butler Lampson This is a key certificate structure which is somewhere between a hierarchical and a web of trust system, somewhat influenced by Blaze's ideas. It is pretty limited though in the kinds of trust delegation it allows. You can accept another person's signatures on specific keys but you can't mark him as a generally-accepted signer. However you can develop chains of signatures as in PGP and perhaps some extra mechanism could be used to decide when to trust them. Hal

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List of reliable remailers
by Raph Levien 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed information about remailer features and reliability. To use it, just finger remailer-list(a)kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of interesting links to remailer-related resources, at: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see: http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger pgpkeys(a)kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu This is the current info: REMAILER LIST This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration options and special features for each of the remailers. The second part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each remailer. You can also get this list by fingering remailer-list(a)kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu. $remailer{"extropia"} = "<remail(a)miron.vip.best.com> cpunk pgp special"; $remailer{"portal"} = "<hfinney(a)shell.portal.com> cpunk pgp hash"; $remailer{"alumni"} = "<hal(a)alumni.caltech.edu> cpunk pgp hash"; $remailer{"c2"} = "<remail(a)c2.org> eric pgp hash reord"; $remailer{"penet"} = "<anon(a)anon.penet.fi> penet post"; $remailer{"flame"} = "<remailer(a)flame.alias.net> cpunk mix pgp. hash latent cut post reord"; $remailer{"mix"} = "<mixmaster(a)remail.obscura.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?"; $remailer{"replay"} = "<remailer(a)replay.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek"; $remailer{"ecafe"} = "<cpunk(a)remail.ecafe.org> cpunk mix"; $remailer{"amnesia"} = "<amnesia(a)chardos.connix.com> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ksub"; $remailer{'alpha'} = '<alias(a)alpha.c2.org> alpha pgp'; $remailer{'nymrod'} = '<nymrod(a)nym.jpunix.com> alpha pgp'; $remailer{"lead"} = "<mix(a)zifi.genetics.utah.edu> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"treehole"} = "<remailer(a)mockingbird.alias.net> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"exon"} = "<remailer(a)remailer.nl.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"vegas"} = "<remailer(a)vegas.gateway.com> cpunk pgp hash latent cut"; $remailer{"haystack"} = "<haystack(a)holy.cow.net> cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"ncognito"} = "<ncognito(a)rigel.cyberpass.net> mix cpunk pgp hash latent"; catalyst(a)netcom.com is _not_ a remailer. lmccarth(a)ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer. usura(a)replay.com is _not_ a remailer. Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator: (c2 alpha) (flame replay) (alumni portal) Use "premail -getkeys pgpkeys(a)kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu" to get PGP keys for the remailers. Fingering this address works too. Note: The remailer list now includes information for the alpha nymserver. Last update: Mon 17 Jun 96 6:46:17 PDT remailer email address history latency uptime ----------------------------------------------------------------------- replay remailer(a)replay.com ****+*+***+* 6:14 99.98% alumni hal(a)alumni.caltech.edu #######**#+# 2:57 99.97% ecafe cpunk(a)remail.ecafe.org *##.-#+--#+# 50:08 99.96% vegas remailer(a)vegas.gateway.com -** **+*#*+# 6:21 99.90% mix mixmaster(a)remail.obscura.com .-+++++++-+ 3:15:05 99.90% c2 remail(a)c2.org -++-++++-++ 1:07:45 99.89% flame remailer(a)flame.alias.net +++++++++++ 1:05:51 99.76% penet anon(a)anon.penet.fi _______._ 60:16:03 99.64% portal hfinney(a)shell.portal.com ##*### ##+# 2:46 99.49% nymrod nymrod(a)nym.jpunix.com +**#++*+* * 9:43 99.45% lead mix(a)zifi.genetics.utah.edu +-++++++++++ 45:49 99.29% exon remailer(a)remailer.nl.com *** *++***+* 5:07 99.23% haystack haystack(a)holy.cow.net *#* +--#*-*+ 23:51 99.18% amnesia amnesia(a)chardos.connix.com ------- --- 3:19:01 96.26% extropia remail(a)miron.vip.best.com ---.-- ---- 6:23:54 94.00% ncognito ncognito(a)rigel.cyberpass.net -....- .. 14:29:58 89.44% treehole remailer(a)mockingbird.alias.net +-++++++ 3:28:59 62.60% alpha alias(a)alpha.c2.org ++***+- 37:51 49.39% History key * # response in less than 5 minutes. * * response in less than 1 hour. * + response in less than 4 hours. * - response in less than 24 hours. * . response in more than 1 day. * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days). cpunk A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To: field. eric A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead. penet The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses X-Anon-To: in the header. pgp Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email address, should be used as the encryption key ID. hash Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of outgoing messages. ksub Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode. nsub Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode. latent Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option. cut Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option. post Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header. ek Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header. special Accepts only pgp encrypted messages. mix Can accept messages in Mixmaster format. reord Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note: I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and haven't verified the reord info myself. mon Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email. filter Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined for public forums are subject to filtering. Raph Levien

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Re: PBS show
by Peter Trei 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Received: from toad.com [140.174.2.1] by alcor.process.com with SMTP-OpenVMS via TCP/IP; Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA03979 for cypherpunks-outgoing; Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.pacifier.com (root(a)mail.pacifier.com [199.2.117.164]) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA03971 for <cypherpunks(a)toad.com>; Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ip9.van1.pacifier.com (ip9.van1.pacifier.com [206.163.4.9]) by mail.pacifier.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA22527; Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199606131636.JAA22527(a)mail.pacifier.com> X-Sender: jimbell(a)mail.pacifier.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:35:16 -0800 To: tcmay(a)got.net (Timothy C. May), cypherpunks(a)toad.com From: jim bell <jimbell(a)pacifier.com> Subject: Re: PBS show Sender: owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com Precedence: bulk Jim Bell wrote: >But the Apple II WAS a toy! Non-detached keyboard, poor placement of reset >key, upper-case only, 40-character wide display, odd microprocessor, VERY >SMALL capacity floppies (which were very slow as well), as well as a hostile >legal situation regarding the building of clones. Hell, they even objected >to other companies building boards which plugged into the bus! The reason for the 40 column screen was quite simple - many customers did not want to shell out a few hundred dollars for a monitor, and instead installed a cheap RF modulator and used an old TV for a screen. The resolution of a TV is inadequate for 80 coumn text (think about the smallest easily readable text you've seen on braodcast or cable). The Apple ][ did not include the RF modulator because it wasn't FCC certified with one - but every dealer also sold $20 modulators tailored for the machine. With the unshielded plastic case, I could wipe out any other TV within 30 feet - a significant distance for a NYC apartment dweller, which I was at the time. While it was not the first machine I programmed (the PDP-8e has that dubious honor, circa 1971), I learned a lot from my Apple ][. Among other feats, I added lower case support to Apple Kermit, and implemented Life in 6502 assembler using HIRES graphics. Peter Trei trei(a)process.com Peter Trei Senior Software Engineer Purveyor Development Team Process Software Corporation http://www.process.com trei(a)process.com

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Spy Tech
by jya＠pipeline.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Three feathers for spying technology: TST: "MI6 stole secrets from French navy." Top secret technology for tracking nuclear submarines has been stolen from a French naval base by MI6, Britain's foreign intelligence service, after a French civilian engineer was paid thousands of pounds to betray one of his country's most closely guarded secrets to an MI6 front company which posed as a technical defence consultancy and publishing house. TST: "High-flying gliders replace satellites." Solar powered gliders circling above cities could provide a cheap alternative to satellites for global communication systems, according to a group of American scientists. WaJo: "Israel Asks White House to Place Curbs On 3 U.S. Satellite-Surveillance Firms." The request is regarded as "very sensitive," according to one U.S. official, because Israeli officials say it relates to their national security concerns. However, officials of the affected U.S. companies charge it amounts to unfair competition because an Israeli company is about to enter the space surveillance business and it wouldn't face similar restrictions. http://pwp.usa.pipeline.com/~jya/tekspy.txt (18 kb) Spy surf: http://www.anonymizer.com Or, TEK_spy

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The Ultima Spy Book
by jya＠pipeline.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The Ultimate Spy Book by H. Keith Melton (Dorling Kindersley, London) DK Publishing, New York First American edition, 1996. $29.95. ISBN 0-7894-0443-5 Over 600 illustrations of the tools and tricks of spycraft for killing, betraying, deceiving, surveilling, encrypting, decrypting, communicating, burgling, recruitment and training, fucking up and rotting in jail, and flacking spy fluff until tip-canoe-ed. --------- Eye pix of cipher devices: Kryha, Bolton, Hebern, M-94: http://pwp.usa.pipeline.com/~jya/cd1.jpg Hagelin's M-209 and CD-57: http://pwp.usa.pipeline.com/~jya/cd2.jpg Enigma: http://pwp.usa.pipeline.com/~jya/enigma1.jpg Enigma innards and Geheimschreiber: http://pwp.usa.pipeline.com/~jya/enigma2.jpg Purple: http://pwp.usa.pipeline.com/~jya/purple.jpg ---------- CYA: http://www.anonymizer.com

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No Subject
by mixmaster＠remail.obscura.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 06:14 PM 6/16/96 -0500, "John A. Perry" wrote: :-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- :Version: 2.6.2 : :hIwDSReYoIbc3PkBA/9xblBrrofx89t5QoJVwCyGB/+futdCXEolwcsQdwWGcDtc :7Vn7orCB8v6iQO+sCgAlYf38ftUxGmzebDd/7eWodTGx8XKnzBIZ9E6bRS38XLRa :XDaipoiNRDi7gX2DA5ADtshTLtUiCjaYurGxGEla2iIMrEacGEyyekdZpUYT1KYA :AAJ17fM4D2X8vpKTtWLr/6REeQvxPU80FpWKa/q1b6wMZ43oG9ZolMONj65hWqX0 :mhY+wp/vUsvQ21P/9VzYF0sy9JIAr45VhoDZBBCG0UW23WoOInXko2Kl2UeZmrut :xR/nZm1sMzU+XYr7QG17aOfeezRs/frYEpvuAbrWYNELlPH72OBJ368nSkesiTo+ :gELda7vNsD12UTEl7gRAo3WizCY2zsQySLOShEiAX7f5vYco8A6pEwJ4XYs4pGn6 :xV4JNUeMjBKGtVkGoZJln3x7W1brgGmRNQbY/dcmCkExOOp+4myRVu0/ufH7n5TO :FWqrb+nqyjgnirqS9DwoqB5JsHiMWU/dJBaCtXH4i1p//oeE9FE82nE2vAOZGMvn :D+MRnheCVRi2TWnwe44PnB+L5z7+J+YJyulGM3bvXhZukjGCAj+EMmWxqkSgc2NS :/xh6efgZNACmQIqxLdsw6TLbh9p+yMaxtaCZU9Bs9jw8dN+7FBZxgFG/hrrI1uh3 :oFahFMDXXAUMUs7lFOcxjAWTRRZKKSOG2mg5M5mr8VbY+5BQdcJJeY+jSCnDinUC :wGFfEWlZMV7sdKhzA0YkHJYBgAPtmTaxrHQidPce46FbIeYVRsUOSEtvttYpMjIz :mCVc5ywueUXbUe5UW3KrlV8uxKH3fEIEZ9Pxf3M9XR/aFXysccnzNzbe87XN8PDk :mxzsRzmoD0CgCSAGfNrTdWl8bFQGnEaweMPnSIFzbSJkRcO0oiBU4/dhEFYiPgx5 :UD2r0uFNjKPt4KFBbFJLi0mrMuOCaxjhva7i70GQ95b4qVsyOZLN5KYSUnSDxDX4 :HFUIrEI/rsw= :=BesD :-----END PGP MESSAGE----- : My Cypherpunk's New Member's Package did not contain the key to decypher this obviously witty and succinct message; I would appreciate an individual with full membership to pgp this and post it for the benefit of others. Anyone with key id 86DCDCF9 come on down! Thanks.

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Damn, that snake oil is tasty! [was Re: SafE Mail Corporation]
by David E. Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > We would like someone to be able or should I say try and crack our > encryption. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. > Mmmm... flamebait. > > Our Web site is http://www.sfmc.com Phone number is 1-800-252-9938. > The highlights: > >Because we believe our encryption algorithm for SafE Mail >is so strong and unbreakable, we will offer five free copies >of SafE Mail or cash equivalent, to anyone capable of cracking >a SafE Mail encrypted file. Uh, okay... but, uh, if we break the encryption, doesn't that make the package damn near useless? Also, they charge $40 (!!) shipping and handling for their free demo. ----- David Smith, Thinker Of Deep Thoughts :) http://www.prairienet.org/~dsmith/library.html

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Re: UK users about to get clippered
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:03 PM 6/17/96 +0200, Anonymous wrote: >If you live the UK, brace yourself for HMG's "Clipper" annoucement >later this week. Look particularly carefully at the escrow agencies. >- Remailereuters And it should go over even less well than American Clipper. When that was proposed, in April of 1993, there was no standard encryption chip nor the immediate prospect of one. Someone might, at least arguably, have been attracted to Clipper with the argument that it's better than no encryption at all. However, now that the NTT chip has been revealed, nobody is going to be under the illusion that it's "Clipper or nothing." Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Re: Remailer Operator Liability?
by frantz＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>(anyone know who came up with the term "email >exploder" that the Court used instead of "mailing list"?) Brendan P Kehoe's "Zen and the Art of the Internet" (1993) discussing mailing lists says (p11), "Any mail sent to that address will "explode" out to each person named in a file maintained on a computer at ..." I have seen it used elsewhere as well. Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | The Internet may fairly be | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | regarded as a never-ending | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz(a)netcom.com | worldwide conversation. | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

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Re: alpha.c2.org in deep shit?
by sdudar＠solutions.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Huh? At 06:14 PM 6/16/96 -0500, you wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- >Version: 2.6.2 > >hIwDSReYoIbc3PkBA/9xblBrrofx89t5QoJVwCyGB/+futdCXEolwcsQdwWGcDtc >7Vn7orCB8v6iQO+sCgAlYf38ftUxGmzebDd/7eWodTGx8XKnzBIZ9E6bRS38XLRa >XDaipoiNRDi7gX2DA5ADtshTLtUiCjaYurGxGEla2iIMrEacGEyyekdZpUYT1KYA >AAJ17fM4D2X8vpKTtWLr/6REeQvxPU80FpWKa/q1b6wMZ43oG9ZolMONj65hWqX0 >mhY+wp/vUsvQ21P/9VzYF0sy9JIAr45VhoDZBBCG0UW23WoOInXko2Kl2UeZmrut >xR/nZm1sMzU+XYr7QG17aOfeezRs/frYEpvuAbrWYNELlPH72OBJ368nSkesiTo+ >gELda7vNsD12UTEl7gRAo3WizCY2zsQySLOShEiAX7f5vYco8A6pEwJ4XYs4pGn6 >xV4JNUeMjBKGtVkGoZJln3x7W1brgGmRNQbY/dcmCkExOOp+4myRVu0/ufH7n5TO >FWqrb+nqyjgnirqS9DwoqB5JsHiMWU/dJBaCtXH4i1p//oeE9FE82nE2vAOZGMvn >D+MRnheCVRi2TWnwe44PnB+L5z7+J+YJyulGM3bvXhZukjGCAj+EMmWxqkSgc2NS >/xh6efgZNACmQIqxLdsw6TLbh9p+yMaxtaCZU9Bs9jw8dN+7FBZxgFG/hrrI1uh3 >oFahFMDXXAUMUs7lFOcxjAWTRRZKKSOG2mg5M5mr8VbY+5BQdcJJeY+jSCnDinUC >wGFfEWlZMV7sdKhzA0YkHJYBgAPtmTaxrHQidPce46FbIeYVRsUOSEtvttYpMjIz >mCVc5ywueUXbUe5UW3KrlV8uxKH3fEIEZ9Pxf3M9XR/aFXysccnzNzbe87XN8PDk >mxzsRzmoD0CgCSAGfNrTdWl8bFQGnEaweMPnSIFzbSJkRcO0oiBU4/dhEFYiPgx5 >UD2r0uFNjKPt4KFBbFJLi0mrMuOCaxjhva7i70GQ95b4qVsyOZLN5KYSUnSDxDX4 >HFUIrEI/rsw= >=BesD >-----END PGP MESSAGE----- > >

2 1

Re: Remailer Operator Liability?
by shamrock＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 9:45 6/17/96, Duncan Frissell wrote: >At 08:43 AM 6/17/96 -0400, Declan B. McCullagh wrote: > >>I believe we used the term "email exploder" instead of "mailing list," >>particularly in cross-examination and closing arguments, to convey the >>idea that such a device is often used for conversation, not just one-way >>communication. > >Was this term invented during the hearings or has anyone heard of it before? I have heard of it before. I believe "mail exploder" is a rather old term. -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred. Disclaimer: My opinions are my own.

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Blowfish Reliability
by Computer Virus Help Desk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Can anyone say with any degree of certainty what resources it would require to crack a file encrypted with 160 Bit Blowfish? Many Thanks! CVHD

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Pathfinder's New Look
by design＠pathfinder.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dear Pathfinder Member: We're excited to announce a major redesign of Pathfinder, your home on the Net, and invite you to come and check it out at http://pathfinder.com! The NEW look of Pathfinder is our response to your feedback. We've made it FASTER LOADING, EASIER TO NAVIGATE and added even more DAILY and INTERACTIVE content. And, we've taken advantage of the latest technologies like Java to make your Pathfinder experience more informative and fun. Whether it's up-to-the-minute news and weather, the latest sports scores, stock quotes or today's celebrity gossip - you can now find it all at the click of a mouse. If you don't see what you're looking for just click on the SEARCH button and we'll help you find it - if it's on Pathfinder or somewhere else on the Net. When we launched in October 1994, Pathfinder was considered a ground-breaking effort on the Web. Today, Pathfinder is a true super-site, containing more than 150,000 web pages from over 90 of the biggest names in news, information and entertainment - names you trust like Time, Money, Sports Illustrated, Entertainment Weekly, People and Fortune. Much more important than our size, however, is our loyal base of Pathfinder users. With your help and support Pathfinder has grown from just a large web site into a vibrant virtual community of members and ideas. We'd be very interested in your feedback on our new look - just click on the "Welcome" banner at the top of the homepage and you can send us all your thoughts and ideas. And, if you find you have any questions while visiting Pathfinder, be sure to check out our new online HELP area. Sincerely, Marie Blue Director of Consumer Marketing P.S. Stay tuned for details on our exciting new product, PATHFINDER PERSONAL EDITION. It's a fully personalizable and customizable online news and information service plus - get the information you want, when you want it! See our homepage for more information.

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SafE Mail Corporation
by safemail＠ntrnet.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

We would like someone to be able or should I say try and crack our encryption. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. Our Web site is http://www.sfmc.com Phone number is 1-800-252-9938. Randy Estridge SafE Mail Corporation

6 5

Re: Snake Oil on the Water...
by David E. Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:27 PM 16-06-96 -0700, it was written: >>At the following two sites, you may download the FREEWARE Pegasus Mail >>program version 2.3.3 16 bit for windows 3.x or a version for WIN95. > >I like Pmail. Had I not been an experienced Eudora user before I >tried it (and pretty stuck on the Eudora interface) I would have >probably stuck with it. Kudos to the Pegasus team for releasing >a freeware program with such excellent filtering capabilites. It >is much more of a full-fledged program than Eudora Lite, IMHO. > >> The >>unique thing about it, besides its simplicity and that it's a great mail >>program better than Eudora, it has a built in encryption program that is as >>effective as PGP and lots simpler. All you do is agree on a password with >>your correspondent. That simple. The "encryption" built into PMail is - and the author admits this - crap. He wrote the encryptor interface, which is essentially Message XOR Password, as a demonstration. Then the JN PGP interface was written. >> The encryption program and the mail program >>were developed in New Zealand, and were legally imported, so the encryption >>program is better than PGP, which is regulated by Federal Cypher Laws. > >This is misleading, IMHO. Mild understatement. >PC users who use PGP should try Pegasus and PGP JN. Been there, done that. It's a nice combo, but could be a little better. >Private Idaho is available from Joel McNamara's page, at: >http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/ Been there, done that. It's also a nice program, but nowhere near a full featured mail client. That's by design, as I understand. dave

1 0

Rating Problems
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The recent CDA decision pointed out some of the problems involved in rating Net content. For example, the court spent a lot of time talking about Cyber Patrol software and the CyberNOT list "containing approximately 7000 sites in twelve categories. The software is designed to enable parents to selectively block access to any or all of the twelve CyberNOT categories simply by checking boxes in the Cyber Patrol Headquarters (the Cyber Patrol program manager). These categories are:" Violence/Profanity: Extreme cruelty, physical or emotional acts against any animal or person which are primarily intended to hurt or inflict pain. Obscene words, phrases, and profanity defined as text that uses George Carlin's seven censored words more often than once every fifty messages or pages. Violence against plants is OK, however. Likewise Cypherpunks which probably meets the 1 bad word per 50 messages standard. I wonder if they use Carlin's original or updated 7 Words. Partial Nudity: Full or partial exposure of the human anatomy except when exposing genitalia. Nudity: Any exposure of the human genitalia. Only in pictures. Text-only full-frontal nudity is OK. Looks like baby pictures are out though. Sexual Acts (graphic or text): Pictures or text exposing anyone or anything involved in explicit sexual acts and lewd and lascivious behavior, including masturbation, copulation, pedophilia, intimacy and involving nude or partially nude people in heterosexual, bisexual, lesbian or homosexual encounters. Also includes phone sex ads, dating services, adult personals, CD-ROM and videos. Bestiality is not covered though. Gross Depictions (graphic or text): Pictures or descriptive text of anyone or anything which are crudely vulgar, deficient in civility or behavior, or showing scatological impropriety. Includes such depictions as maiming, bloody figures, indecent depiction of bodily functions. There goes all of Pop Culture. Certainly deficient in behavior. Racism/Ethnic Impropriety: Prejudice or discrimination against any race or ethnic culture. Ethnic or racist jokes and slurs. Any text that elevates one race over another. Luckily, all other forms of discrimination are OK. Women, crips, queers, Jews, and old folk watch out. How politically incorrect of Cyber Patrol. Satanic/Cult: Worship of the devil; affinity for evil, wickedness. Sects or groups that potentially coerce individuals to grow, and keep, membership. Does that include evangelicals? They're not Satanic but they certainly encourage membership growth. Some evangelicals can be quite coercive. And why Satanists? Don't we have freedom of religion in this country? Remember, the Supremes *did* throw out the Hialeah Sanitaria Animal Sacrifice Ordinance. Drugs/Drug Culture: Topics dealing with the use of illegal drugs for entertainment. This would exclude current illegal drugs used for medicinal purposes (e.g., drugs used to treat victims of AIDS). Includes substances used for other than their primary purpose to alter the individual's state of mind such as glue sniffing. I'm glad my drug pages are limited to the non-entertaining uses of illegal drugs. Purely analgesic purposes only. Militant/Extremist: Extremely aggressive and combative behaviors, radicalism, advocacy of extreme political measures. Topics include extreme political groups that advocate violence as a means to achieve their goal. There goes www.whitehouse.gov. They certainly "advocate violence as a means to achieve their goal." Pretty aggressive and combative as well. Radical. Advocate extreme political measures. Gambling: Of or relating to lotteries, casinos, betting, numbers games, on-line sports or financial betting including non-monetary dares. There goes www.wsj.com. *All* financial betting. Questionable/Illegal: Material or activities of a dubious nature which may be illegal in any or all jurisdictions, such as illegal business schemes, chain letters, software piracy, and copyright infringement. Which jurisdictions -- Singapore? Do they mean just US jurisdictions or all jurisdictions. Is offshore banking dubious? It's not illegal. Alcohol, Beer & Wine: Material pertaining to the sale or consumption of alcoholic beverages. Also includes sites and information relating to tobacco products. Poor Joe Camel. If Health Nazis are bad for adults, why are they good for children? Note guns aren't on the banned list so www.nra.org is safe for the kiddies. DCF

2 1

Re: pretty good reputation
by Vipul Ved Prakash 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Deranged Mutant wrote: > > first, i would like to make it clear that i have no personal grudges against > > I never thought you did... That was simply to ensure a flame free discussion. Almost anything I talk about on my local bbs echos (back in India) turns out to be a flame war, specially if its related to _touchy_ software like PGP :) > > pgp, i have some interest in reputation systems which i am trying to pursue. > > since pgp tries to model a reputation system and is being used world-wide, > > i am using pgp as a model for discussion. > > That's the point, though. PGP *does not* try to model a reputation > system. When you sign keys, you only attest that you are sure that > that key belongs to the person whose name is on it. A signature says > *nothing* about a person's reputation. > This is meant to be used separately by each user of PGP. If Alice > knows Bob personally, then she knows how trustworthy Bob is when he > signs a key, in relation to her. This is not meant to be shared with > anyone else, and has no meaning to anyone else except Alice. in that case if alice receives a key signed by bob, she would know the key is good. and there is no need for the two other fields. infact the reason why i felt pgp is trying to model a reputation system if because of these two fields that carry trust values. > You can't set up a global web of trust. It's computationally > infeasable, esp. with contradictions, to resolve. It's also > meaningless. Say Alice trusts Bob. Bob trusts Carol. Carol trusts > Don. Should Alice trust Don? No... subjective factors like "trust" > don't commute. this is precisely what i wanted to know. can there be a model wherein one can compute a trust-like parameter? if yes in what ways should this parameter be modified and qualified. or conversely what kind of qualification/modification is required for computing trust? > > copule of things you mentioned are intresting. in a reputation system the > > trust parameters are fuzzy and there are lot of layers (since we > > are talking of a web of users), so we can't mix it with the liar paradox. > > Yes we can. There's been work done with the Liar paradox using fuzzy > logic. Also other work in repuation webs ("Say the president of a > company asks all his vice presidents for their opinions about each > other, so he can appoint a successor. How does he resolve > contradictions, when all he has are their opinions about each > other?"). lets say a reputation system involves alice, bob, carol and don. Computing trust parameter with respect to each other can lead to situtions where alice trusts bob x% and has y% proof that he is a liar, after considering all other relations. If this x% > y% she'll believe him, if not she won't. thats why i feel the liar paradox doesn't really pose much of a threat. > > as far as halting problem goes, again can we reduce a reputation system to > > halting problem? Infact alonzo church and some other scientists made > > symbolic equivalents of turing's machine which could determine the broad > > limits of automatic computation. is there any research being done on reputation > > systems that involves church's thesis? > > I mispoke slightly: I mentioned the halting problem in terms there > being non-computable functions. There are people on the list (and > elsewhere) who don't have an inkling about the halting problem, and > propose security/reputation systems that fly in the face of it. > > I've been working on a proof or discussion of a "Very Generalized > Halting Problem" that basically says that you can check that > something is "not x" from a set of tests to see if that something is > not "x"... if it fails at least one test, you know it's not "x", but > if it doesn't fail any, because such a set must be incomplete > (Goedel's Theorem...), you are never sure that it's "x". > > How this relates to a reputation system? If you set up a global > reputation network where people tag each other in degrees of trust, > you try for completeness and end up with . People will > contradict each other and there will be no way to resolve it. Alice > says Bob is trustworthy to a degree, and Bob says Carol is > trustworthy to a degree, but Carol says Alice is untrustoworthy > (rates Alice lower). There will be inconsistency only if trust/untrust values are absolute. that is you either trust someone or you don't. i am talking of a system wherein trust values lie between 0..1 which are derived from a set of tags. in that case bob alice trusts bob x% bob trusts carol y% and carol trusts alice z%. if z < x, z < y simply implies alice trusts bob, bob trusts carol more than carol trusts alice. so the system will be relative rather than absolute. a person who is trusted by more people will carry greater weight and people trusted by him will carry higher weight too. this way snoopy who is not trusted by many people will automatically have a weak relationship with others. > There's the other point that someone else on the list (Perry?) brought up: > if people publicly rate each other, there may be social/political > pressure to give some people lower or higher ratings. again these ratings will be decided in a web rather that on one-to-one basis. that way the social/political pressure can be reduced though not completely eliminated. > And again, being a private rating system means 1) I don't offend > anyone since no one else knows how I rate them, and 2) there are no > contradictions because I am not relying on other's ratings to > determine how I rate them. > > BTW, some work using fuzzy logic in terms of how people rate each > other is being done at the Group for Logic and Formal Semantics at > the University at Stony Brook (in Stony Brook, NY). I went to school > there and still help out in the Philosophy Department and the > G.L.F.S. with some programming etc. It isn't exactly the same as > ratings systems, but its close enough. if any research work is freely available i'll be really interested. best, vipul.

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Re: Snake Oil on the Water...
by Lou Zirko 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: dsmith(a)prairienet.org, richieb(a)teleport.com, cypherpunks(a)toad.com, secure(a)commtouch.com Date: Mon Jun 17 16:44:10 1996 Pronto Secure, currently in beta 6.16, is shaping up as a fine all-inclusive mail package that supports PGP. You might want to take a look at it at: Beta Testers residing in the USA are invited to download the beta from: http://www.commtouch.com/secus/secus1.htm Non US residents should download from: http://www.commtouch.com/secnon/secintl1.htm I have been with it since beta 1 and it definately has come a long way. Platforms supported are the MS GUI. It is a 16-bit app. I currently run it under NT 3.51 w/ 32-bit PGP executables. Take a look. Lou Z. Lou Zirko (502)383-2175 Zystems lzirko(a)c2.org "We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 iQEVAwUBMcXR4ctPRTNbb5z9AQH8Tgf/aCWChVMTKFyv+NpADQqosnMO2C7EAj/Z o+O2KwQ91YVaRpkmJjrHzQuP+ou6YKHi5hH9SLRbN5Ox4/8YMmaOIRjqOrTmgta8 +fMBAtJ01AyWW9ZZh0sfEqM32RQ8Pt+x2Q8+MuyuEU/9vaeGhbb7DksGA8y2ht/5 uDKBUtrGgxAS7Yr2VRJVJXNd1b7eFdKGFUhBJJo9ig11/ICHcXVbUqpQ9Iqi2aRT hoRRVtiMawCJznXaYid+2fami/pgtq/i00kV9y4ge3TOooxM4KZB3LZziCbS8R4d AfaG9dj0wP50/zDhFxdExVc6NbQzTyr3kY+4z/47qkIZZ3wn5paezw== =FO3b -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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RE: Non-Lethal Terrorism
by .. 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

if you get the opportunity, check out the beyond 2000, nextstep and invention shows on the discovery channel. albeit, they may be a bit dated, the stuff is often enlightening. tuit, r&d of stunguns, dazzlers, flypaper, tanglers and lo-grade chemical agents has been underway for some time in labs arouns the world. lethality is not as popular as it once was. some of these devices do, however, work through excruciating, if nondamaging, pain. tony ---------- From: John Young[SMTP:jya@pipeline.com] Sent: Saturday, June 15, 1996 10:33 PM To: cypherpunks(a)toad.com Subject: Non-Lethal Terrorism NON-LETHAL TECHNOLOGIES Military Options and Implications Report of an Independent Task Force http://pwp.usa.pipeline.com/~jya/nltech.htm (47 kb) Beware snooping, consider using the anonymizer at: http://www.anonymizer.com ----- Or, if http fails, NLT_ech to <jya(a)pipeline.com>

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Re: Are Intrested in a new approach to Cryptography???????
by Raph Levien 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

M.Wagoner (1) wrote: > > We have superior Russian Encryption that cannot be broken. We would love to > send you a copy of this software as a challenge to do so. Do you do such things? > Our encryption far exceeds the military standard of 1024 bit encryption, > hundreds of times over. I was told that if anyone could break this, it would > be your organization or anyone else associated with the 'Cypher Punks'. Basically, we are not interested. We are not a free cryptanalysis service. Besides, we already have effectively unbreakable encryption - our main interest is integrating ciphers that have already stood the test of time into useful applications. Best of luck, though. Raph

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Re: Rating Problems
by David E. Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> The recent CDA decision pointed out some of the problems involved in rating > Net content. For example, the court spent a lot of time talking about > Cyber > Patrol software and the CyberNOT list "containing approximately 7000 sites Do we just ignore the fact that these lists are outdated within seconds of release? Even if they can be automatically distributed via the net (maybe by forcing your Web browser to use their page as your home page and automagically downloading to you a new update), the list will still be outdated by days or weeks. This is one of the big problems with all of these types of filters. > Violence/Profanity: Extreme cruelty, physical or > emotional acts against any animal or person which are > primarily intended to hurt or inflict pain. Obscene > words, phrases, and profanity defined as text that uses > George Carlin's seven censored words more often than > once every fifty messages or pages. Gee, is this real or simulated violence? I don't suppose I can go surfing over to the Mortal Kombat website now... > Satanic/Cult: Worship of the devil; affinity for evil, > wickedness. Sects or groups that potentially coerce > individuals to grow, and keep, membership. > > Does that include evangelicals? They're not Satanic but they certainly > encourage membership growth. Some evangelicals can be quite coercive. And > why Satanists? Don't we have freedom of religion in this country? > Remember, the Supremes *did* throw out the Hialeah Sanitaria Animal > Sacrifice Ordinance. What about Co$? They might be a cult, depending upon who you ask. And, what about us harmless, life-affirming Witches? The name alone will probably trigger a lot of filters. I think the point of all this is that unless/until a "smart" filter can be devised, there can't / won't be a good filtering package that will please everyone, or even a majority of someones. Good luck. dave ----- David E. Smith, dsmith(a)prairienet.org PO Box 324 Cape Girardeau MO USA 63702-0324 http://www.prairienet.org/~dsmith/dave.html "fighting ultimage cosmic evil... ... one bean burrito at a time."

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San Diego Cypherpunks Physical Meeting
by Chris Claborne 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

San Diego Area CPUNKS symposium Thursday, June 20th, 1996 Invitation to all Cypherpunks to join the San Diego crowd at "The Mission Cafe & Coffee Shop" were I hope to get an update of Lance Cottrell's anonymous e-mail server, "mixmaster", exchange keys, and discuss other topical CP stuff. There's always the semi-topical discussions; Internet Service Provider in San Diego (providing, anonymous remailers and other privacy services), stelth communications, latest Cypherpunk goings-on, Internet happenings (like recent Federal court decision). Don't forget to bring your public key fingerprint. If you can figure out how to get it on the back of a business card, that would be cool. Place: The Mission Cafe & Coffee Shop 3795 Mission Bl in Mission Beach. 488-9060 Time:1800 Their Directions: 8 west to Mission Beach Ingram Exit Take west mission bay drive Go right on Mission Blvd. On the corner of San Jose and mission blvd. It is located between roller coaster and garnett. It's kind of 40s looking building... funky looking (their description, not mine) They serve stuff to eat, coffee stuff, and beer. See you there! New guy, bring your key fingerprint. Drop me a note if you plan to attend. 2 -- C -- ... __o .. -\<, Chris.Claborne(a)SanDiegoCA.NCR .Com ...(*)/(*). CI$: 76340.2422 http://bordeaux.sandiegoca.ncr.com/ PGP Pub Key fingerprint = 7E BF 38 3F 24 A7 D1 B0 54 44 96 AA 10 D0 5D 51 Avail on Pub Key server. Dreams. They're just screen savers for the brain.

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RE: Micropayments are Crap
by Blanc Weber 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From: Vladimir Z. Nuri > >this really revolutionizes the idea of a magazine or editor. >suddenly anyone on the net can become an editor or writer, >and become as financially successful as the market will support. ................................................................ Really. This will be a tremendous boon for individuals, with great potential for capitalistic profits, what with all those consumers (otherwise known as "people") benefitting from the large variety of services available through the Almighty Free Market (The Now All-Oneness, All HTML One-Stop-Shop). .. Blanc

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Re: Snake Oil on the Water...
by Lou Zirko 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: dsmith(a)prairienet.org, cypherpunks(a)toad.com Date: Mon Jun 17 18:59:49 1996 They have started mentioning the product on their web pages and provide a link to the beta site for sign-ups etc. Since 6.x I have not yet experienced a product crash, except with a disk full condition which was reported to them earlier today. BTW, would you be interested in setting up a secure channel for testing? Lou Z. Lou Zirko (502)383-2175 Zystems lzirko(a)c2.org "We're all bozos on this bus" - Nick Danger, Third Eye -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 iQEVAwUBMcXxrctPRTNbb5z9AQGfwAgAn7PYnixstxM13Bm6/VTEJp0J7b7e4kh8 evPhPIrsfgWskZzQY/YJtNtaV8p7hphPMeOewGpZ/lXhuPPZeHwLWmFTx/cmX5po g8imoxfwPheHaVtj2R2mdvEyL7Xfiz/YZDJ2E9pyqN7euIrx+xPwbDVqedv87TC3 sFwJecbSpAmGwR2f5V7SrVx+uQcdQ+NzUyOhcToYRnbl7gydEyuGQpQNpn7uyi8S fpvqyoKMwU/ki6xLKIHBPmp8ZQK0AeWnOQl80oGbG7jUGveW9ESs5BwrtXSQPDlI 4SXv1T1UGlVF+DtLFgGHP5agGhl4KT+c5z4ZUTc+BzqSs5aqYmB8yA== =4txl -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Pickle Angels?!? (Humour)(Noise)
by William Knowles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On today's Sally Jesse Raphel was Curtis Swiva? founder of the Guardian Angels talking about his new record of eating pickles. He plans to break the record for eating 22 hot dogs in 12 minutes. The whole rest of the stage was full of drag queens, and other rejects from the Jerry Springer show. Curtis must be really hard up to get his mug on TV! William Knowles erehwon(a)c2.org -- William Knowles <erehwon(a)c2.org> PGP mail welcome & prefered / KeyID 1024/2C34BCF9 PGP Fingerprint 55 0C 78 3C C9 44 DE 5A 3C B4 60 9C 00 FB BD Finger for public key --

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Re: SafE Mail Corporation
by Sandy Sandfort 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ C'punks, At 05:21 PM 6/17/96 -0400, M.Wagoner (1) wrote: > >We would like someone to be able or should I say try and >crack our encryption. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. >Our Web site is http://www.sfmc.com Phone number is >1-800-252-9938. So I pulled up the Web site to see what sort of reward they offered to the successful cracker. Under the heading "Attention `Hackers'" they said if you crack their unbreakable SafE Mail code, you get 5 free copies of ... SafE Mail! Oh, that's a really primo prize, broken software. Duh. Since cracking their encryption is IMPOSSIBLE, I suggest they make the stakes interesting--$100,000, or hell, a cool million. After all, it's unbreakable. It's not like they will have to pay up or anything. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Royalties (was "Re: Micropayments are Crap", which is a boring s
by Deranged Mutant 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On 17 Jun 96 at 12:45, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: [..] > 2. copyrights. the issue of copyrights is not even resolved today. > when serious cash starts to be associated with cyberspace you > are going to see a lot of incredibly agitated people, especially > lawyers. I imagine systems will evolve that are similar to > a technology that has evolved by which radio stations pay music > companies whenever they play artists songs. (if any cpunks could > elaborate on this system, I think it is an excellent preliminary > example of how a microcurrency-like system would interact with > a copyright situation). I think similar standards are going to Excellent example? I dunno. At the non-commercial station I work, once a year or every other year ASCAP or BMI, for a two week period, wants our playlists... not the usual playlists, but detailed ones which even the most anal-retentive people hate to fill out: the performer, the song writer (not always the same), album and song titles, record label, and if music is ASCAP, BMI, etc. Includes not only songs but them music, background music, etc. I don't remember the rates, but non-commercial stations pay a lower rate than commercial ones. Royalties are supposedly divied out to songwriters (and performers?) or record companies based on how much airplay they received, which I guess is averaged out for the whole year. I don't know if they survey all radio stations around the same time or space it out for different areas and different stations throughout the year. Touch luck for artists who get some airplay but not enough to make it on the lists, of course. Digital area: possibility that people will feel because it's computerized, EVERYTHING can be kept track of. This is problematic, aside from privacy reasons, because the big royalty makers get less and the smaller people get more. Parallel with experiemtal Nielson-ratings tech... a special cable box that did the monitoring for you, and even had an electronic eye that could tell if anyone was in the room, or if they were sleeping or reading the paper rather than watching... apparently every station got much lower ratings than when people generously filled out booklets, so the stations threatened to set up an alternate system, so I don't know if that system was adopted. I'm curious as to how royalities are divied up from the cassette tax, since everyone with blank casssettes is, of course, violating copyrights according to some logic. Will people want royalities for reselling? There was a flack a few years ago from some big record distributors over used CD sales. They refused to supply some of the big chains if they continued to sell used CDs without giving them a cut. Rob

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FYA: SafE Mail Corporation
by geeman＠best.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

2 1

Re: More secure web browser
by Chris Adams 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Chris> This is all I got from the anonymizer test site (URL was posted >Chris> recently). >Chris> <BR> Your Internet browser is IBM-WebExplorer-DLL/v1.1b. >Chris> <BR> You are coming from . >Chris> Seems reasonably private. Unfortunately, it's not an option if you >Chris> don't use OS/2... >I doubt it. You're only `private' wrt hostname because io-online's >reverse DNS tables appear (very) broken. This has nothing to do with >the browser or the O/S. I wasn't referring to that. I was referring to the fact that ALL it had was WebExplorer and the hostname. Some of the other browsers release a LOT of extra information... BTW, no OS-supremacy was intendeded - merely a realization of the fact that WebExplorer is an OS/2 only product.

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Re: Netscape Mail Security and PGP Plugins
by Chris Adams 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>However as has been mentioned here a PGP/MIME mail type could >theoretically be used to activate a handler for that incoming mail. I >don't know exactly how this would work. Glancing at the netscape plug >docs near <URL: >http://home.netscape.com/eng/mozilla/2.0/handbook/plugins/ > it appears >that plugins are activated on HTML page downloads, not (necessarily) on >mail receipt. So unless you typically find your incoming mail on a web >page, it doesn't look like this will work. I will ask about it on >coderpunks for clarification. Netscape 2 seems to support HTML in email files. Has anyone tested it with a plugin?

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Re: Fuseable Links - no guarantees??
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 3:44 AM 6/15/96, Warren wrote: >I have never paid much attention to the protection of firmware or the >technical issues revolving around such schemes...was wondering: > >I recently saw an add for a UK based group that says they can take a PIC >OTP micro and read the prom (for a fee, of course) - How the heck is this >done?? I have my suspicion that they (somehow) magically peel off the >ceramic coating (without destroying the chewy center), get a circuit mask >and 'micro probe' the I/O of the IC...they then download the secret recipe >to the afore mentioned 'chewy center'. > >Is this close to accurate?? How is it 'done' ??? I don't know of any modern chips that have "ceramic coatings." (Some chips, esp. CPUs, are still ceramic-packaged, but in these cases the metal or ceramic lids are easily removed.) Most chips are plastic-packaged, and plasma ashers and/or chemical baths will expose the chip surface easily enough. Once exposed, various methods exist to read internal voltage levels. For example, electron beams in a scanning electron microscope (SEM) can fairly easily read at least surface potentials. Whether a SEM in voltage-contrast mode can read voltages on lower levels depends on a lot of things, and I can't even make a guess here as to whether OTP (one-time programmable) memories from particular vendors can have internal nodes probed. With enough money, many things are possible. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: SafE Mail Corporation
by Deranged Mutant 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

What the heck: I'm bored tonight... Well, not that bored. Don't need another 'tear snake-oil to bits or is this a damned troll' thread. Why does "M. Wagoner" sound familiar? On 17 Jun 96 at 17:21, "M.Wagoner" (safemail(a)ntrnet.net) wrote: > We would like someone to be able or should I say try and crack our > encryption. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. > > Our Web site is http://www.sfmc.com Phone number is 1-800-252-9938. > > Randy Estridge > SafE Mail Corporation Uh oh. I checked the page. Claimed Public Key, Sigs, Error Correction, Compression, lots of nice stuff. They kind of got the vocabulary down. Only in a fuzzy way. Hypes "INTERNET Compatible" is if that means anything, a "22 character public key" (no, it's not a type. twenty-two character public key, in several places said that), proprietary algorithm, etc. etc. Yawn, Rob. --- No-frills sig. Befriend my mail filter by sending a message with the subject "send help" Key-ID: 5D3F2E99 1996/04/22 wlkngowl(a)unix.asb.com (root@magneto) AB1F4831 1993/05/10 Deranged Mutant <wlkngowl(a)unix.asb.com> Send a message with the subject "send pgp-key" for a copy of my key.

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pretty bad idea (was Re: pretty good reputation)
by Deranged Mutant 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On 16 Jun 96 at 12:32, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: [..] > > That's the point, though. PGP *does not* try to model a reputation > > system. When you sign keys, you only attest that you are sure that > > that key belongs to the person whose name is on it. A signature says > > *nothing* about a person's reputation. [..] > in that case if alice receives a key signed by bob, she would know > the key is good. Pretty-good, yes. (Assuming she trusts anything signed by Bob.) > ... and there is no need for the two other fields. > infact the reason why i felt pgp is trying to model a reputation system > if because of these two fields that carry trust values. Those are private/personal trust values only. Alice rates Bob on how well she'd trust a key signed by Bob. This is subjective for Alice, based on her relationship with Bob. She may not know him well and assign him a low rating. Or she may know him all too well, and give him a low rating. This has no meaning for Carol, or Don, or anyone else, since they have different (if any at all) relationships with Bob. > > You can't set up a global web of trust. It's computationally > > infeasable, esp. with contradictions, to resolve. It's also > > meaningless. Say Alice trusts Bob. Bob trusts Carol. Carol trusts > > Don. Should Alice trust Don? No... subjective factors like "trust" > > don't commute. > > this is precisely what i wanted to know. can there be a model wherein one > can compute a trust-like parameter? if yes in what ways should this parameter No, at least not one with meaning. There are many factors that would go into one's rating of another: how well one knows the other; part history; bias for or against another because of thing like race, religion, political viewpoint, favorite OS, skills/talent or lack thereof, etc. People's ratings of each other change as well... just imagine global ratings of a once overly well-liked famous person who after several years is now infamous (or an infamous person who is now forgiven). And again, social pressure to give someone a certain rating... [..] > lets say a reputation system involves alice, bob, carol and don. Computing > trust parameter with respect to each other can lead to situtions where > alice trusts bob x% and has y% proof that he is a liar, after considering > all other relations. If this x% > y% she'll believe him, if not she won't. Generally x+y=1 in this scheme. But lets say for a moment they are separate: x = trust level; y = mixtrust level, independent of x... that makes little sense, since if y>.5, then Bob isn't trustworthy, but why is x > y? x and y would always have to be adjusted for each other... (so it's better off to use something like x+y=1). > thats why i feel the liar paradox doesn't really pose much of a > threat. But even then, For Alice, x(Bob) > y(Bob), so Bob is trustworthy. For Bob though, x(Alice) < y(Alice). So what of Carol? She does not yet know Alice and Bob, and sees their ratings about each other [Note: some people would assign ratings based on others; others would assign ratings based on personal experience... another problem with a global rating scheme]. Carol asks Alice about Bob, who says he's trustworthy. She asks Bob about Alice, who says Alice is untrustworthy. If Alice is correct, then according to Bob she's not worth listening to, but then why listen to Bob. If Bob is correct, Alice isn't worth listening to, but then again, maybe Bob isn't since she says Bob is... so why should Carol bother with any of them. Ok, in real life it's possible to meet two people, one of him is a liar but not so much as to admit another is more truthful... and that truthful person agrees. It's actually quite common... but how does a third person who doesn't know any of them figure it out? How does a computer program using a formula? But given a system with several variables (ie, several people rating each other) you'll have something that's even harder to resolve. Given a global system with thousands or millions of variables... how does one make sense of all those ratings about a particular aspect of one person? [..] > There will be inconsistency only if trust/untrust values are absolute. > that is you either trust someone or you don't. i am talking of a system > wherein trust values lie between 0..1 which are derived from a set of Oh no. There's also a lot of inconsistency there too. Doesn't matter if you use boolean or fuzzy values. > tags. in that case bob alice trusts bob x% bob trusts carol y% and carol > trusts alice z%. if z < x, z < y simply implies alice trusts bob, bob trusts > carol more than carol trusts alice. so the system will be relative rather than You're ignoring how much Alice trusts Bob, how much Carol trusts Bob and how much Alice trusts Carol. > absolute. a person who is trusted by more people will carry greater > weight Why should that person carry more weight? (more weight than who else?) What if all the people who trust that person are idiots? Why should I, or you, or anyone else care about somebody more or less because "x number of people trust so-and-so"? > and people trusted by him will carry higher weight too. this way snoopy There's another flaw. And what if those people trust him? Exponentially increasing trust? > who is not trusted by many people will automatically have a weak relationship > with others. Not many people know Snoopy, so he has no trust level. Nobody wants to get to know Snoopy just because he has no trust level. He's locked out. Bad idea. > > There's the other point that someone else on the list (Perry?) brought up: > > if people publicly rate each other, there may be social/political > > pressure to give some people lower or higher ratings. > > again these ratings will be decided in a web rather that on one-to-one basis. > that way the social/political pressure can be reduced though not completely > eliminated. No. Individuals put their ratings in the web to skew or confuse things. Rob. --- No-frills sig. Befriend my mail filter by sending a message with the subject "send help" Key-ID: 5D3F2E99 1996/04/22 wlkngowl(a)unix.asb.com (root@magneto) AB1F4831 1993/05/10 Deranged Mutant <wlkngowl(a)unix.asb.com> Send a message with the subject "send pgp-key" for a copy of my key.

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THIS IS SORT OF ... CRYPTIC
by Sandy Sandfort 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, I'm not sure what this item is about. Anybody know? S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:31:16 -0700 (PDT) From: CHINANET Moderator <cnm(a)SDSC.EDU> To: chinanet-tech(a)sdsc.edu Subject: CINET-L Newsletter, Issue No. 69 (CN96-012), June 16, 1996 Optic Fiber Automatic Surveillance Network Ready in Three Years The construction of the national optic fiber automatic surveillance network has been going on smoothly. The three surveillance stations located from Beijing to Tianjin are operating normally. It was estimated that the construction of another 23 surveillance stations will be completed by July. People concerned also estimate that the construction of the national optic fiber automatic surveillance network, installed with 500 surveillance stations, will be completed within three years. (Info(a)AsiaInfo.Com, June 5, 1996) ____ ____ ____

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