December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

IP: ISPI Clips 5.10: 'Deadbeat' Parents Database Goes on Line
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: "ama-gi ISPI" <offshore(a)email.msn.com> Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 5.10: 'Deadbeat' Parents Database Goes on Line Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 00:11:28 -0700 To: <Undisclosed.Recipients(a)majordomo.pobox.com> ISPI Clips 5.10: 'Deadbeat' Parents Database Goes on Line News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) Friday October 2, 1998 ISPI4Privacy(a)ama-gi.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This From: CNN Interactive, September 30, 1998 http://www.cnn.com National Registry to Track 'deadbeat' Parents Goes on Line: The Federal Case Registry will track the 16 million U.S. parents who are required to pay child support http://www.cnn.com/US/9809/30/deadbeat.registry/ WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A new national registry aimed at helping keep track of the 16 million U.S. parents required to pay child support goes on line Thursday. The Federal Case Registry is designed to help custodial parents who aren't receiving child support track down the non-custodial parents who owe the money. Once the "deadbeat" parent is located, even in another state, officials can ask his or her employer to withhold child support from paychecks, which the employer is obligated to do under federal law. "This is an exciting day of hope for children whose parents have abandoned them financially," said U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Secretary Donna Shalala in a statement. HHS figures show that states now collect about 22 percent of the $50 billion in back child support owed each year. The new database is expected to be particularly helpful in cases where the children live in a different state than the deadbeat parent. "Since one-third of all child support cases are interstate, we now can confidently close the loopholes for parents escaping their financial obligations," said Olivia Golden, an HHS assistant secretary. Custodial parents can enter information about the deadbeat parent in the registry. That information will then be checked against data in a separate registry, the National Directory of New Hires, which includes records for everyone who begins a new job. Critics of the registry concept say that many custodial parents who try to go after child support after a multi-year lapse won't have enough accurate data to make a match. Fathers' rights groups have also expressed concerns that the tracking system could be used to invade the privacy of law-abiding parents. However, Golden says the law that set up the registry prohibits unauthorized use of the data. Thirty-nine states will begin entering information into the registry immediately. The remaining 11 states are expected to come on board during 1999. Correspondent Jennifer Auther contributed to this report. © 1998 Cable News Network, Inc. --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------ ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a regular bases (up to 3 - 8 clips per day) send the following message "Please enter [Your Name] into the ISPI Clips list: [Your e-mail address]" to: ISPIClips(a)ama-gi.com . The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small contributor-funded organization based in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada). ISPI operates on a not-for-profit basis, accepts no government funding and takes a global perspective. ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research into electronic, personal and financial privacy with a view toward helping ordinary people understand the degree of privacy they have with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise inform them about techniques to enhance their privacy. But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and generous financial support. If you value in the ISPI Clips service or if you are concerned about the erosion of your privacy in general, won't you please help us continue this important work by becoming an "ISPI Clips Supporter" or by taking out an institute Membership? We gratefully accept all contributions: Less than $60 ISPI Clips Supporter $60 - $99 Primary ISPI Membership (1 year) $100 - $300 Senior ISPI Membership (2 years) More than $300 Executive Council Membership (life) Your ISPI "membership" contribution entitles you to receive "The ISPI Privacy Reporter" (our bi-monthly 12 page hard-copy newsletter in multi-contributor format) for the duration of your membership. For a contribution form with postal instructions please send the following message "ISPI Contribution Form" to ISPI4Privacy(a)ama-gi.com . We maintain a strict privacy policy. Any information you divulge to ISPI is kept in strict confidence. It will not be sold, lent or given away to any third party. ********************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address ********************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **********************************************

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IP: ISPI Clips 5.11: Canada Weighs in on Crypto--CNET
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: "ama-gi ISPI" <offshore(a)email.msn.com> Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 5.11: Canada Weighs in on Crypto--CNET Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 00:13:01 -0700 To: <Undisclosed.Recipients(a)majordomo.pobox.com> ISPI Clips 5.11: Canada Weighs in on Crypto--CNET News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) Friday October 2, 1998 ISPI4Privacy(a)ama-gi.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This From: CNET News.con, October 1, 1998 http://www.news.com Canada Weighs in on Crypto http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,27044,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh By Janet Kornblum, janetk(a)cnet.com Staff Writer, CNET News.com In a move aimed at encouraging e-commerce, the Canadian government today introduced a new policy with relatively loose restrictions on the export of encryption software. The new encryption policy, introduced today in a speech by John Manley, Canada's minister of industry, may be more notable for what it lacks: a mandatory requirement for controversial key recovery and powerful restrictions on strong encryption products. Encryption software is used to put a digital lock on private communication. To read an encrypted document, the recipient has to have a "key." The controversy over encryption has been a classic case of business and privacy interests vs. government. On one hand, businesses and privacy advocates want to be able to develop and sell products that are airtight as possible. On the other, governments--primarily the United States--want to be able to prevent outsiders from being able to digitally lock out law enforcement officials from their communication and thwarting efforts to prosecute wired criminals. Though the White House has loosened its stance on the export of encryption software, it still backs policies that make the practice difficult. Canada's Manley, on the other hand, specifically said the country "will not implement mandatory key recovery requirements or licensing regimes for certification authorities or trusted third parties." It does, however "encourage industry to establish responsible practices, such as key recovery techniques for stored data and industry-led accreditation of private sector certification authorities," he added. The government also pledged to make it easier for Canadian firms to export strong encryption products both by streamlining the export permit process and by making sure Canada's regulations are not tighter than those of competitors in other countries. "The policy underscores that Canada is open for electronic business," Manley said. "We are encouraging the widespread use of strong encryption and growth of export markets for Canadian technologies." David Banisar, policy director for the Electronic Privacy Information Center and an outspoken critic of the United States' tight export restrictions, today applauded most of Canada's new policy. "It definitely refutes the U.S.'s attempts to get Canada to restrict crypto in many ways," Banisar said. "It allows Canadian companies to export software pretty much of any size." He added that Canada's policy could help influence more liberal European rules on encryption exportation. "This won't force the U.S.'s hands, but what it does is it further isolates the U.S.," he said. However, Banisar did take exception to a proposal contained in the policy statement today that says the government will introduce legislation that specifically makes it "an offense to wrongfully disclose private encryption key information and to use cryptography to commit or hide evidence of a crime." Making cryptography itself a special circumstance in the commission of a crime is tantamount to adding special penalties for using "basic instruments of communication" such as a telephone or a pen, Banisar said. Unlike laws that single out the use of guns or other weapons specifically designed to produce physical damage, "this is not a technology that creates crimes," he said. "And because its intended use is going to be essentially ubiquitous this could be an additional penalty that could apply to any kind of crime." Copyright © 1995-98 CNET, Inc. --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------ ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a regular bases (up to 3 - 8 clips per day) send the following message "Please enter [Your Name] into the ISPI Clips list: [Your e-mail address]" to: ISPIClips(a)ama-gi.com . The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small contributor-funded organization based in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada). ISPI operates on a not-for-profit basis, accepts no government funding and takes a global perspective. ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research into electronic, personal and financial privacy with a view toward helping ordinary people understand the degree of privacy they have with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise inform them about techniques to enhance their privacy. But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and generous financial support. If you value in the ISPI Clips service or if you are concerned about the erosion of your privacy in general, won't you please help us continue this important work by becoming an "ISPI Clips Supporter" or by taking out an institute Membership? We gratefully accept all contributions: Less than $60 ISPI Clips Supporter $60 - $99 Primary ISPI Membership (1 year) $100 - $300 Senior ISPI Membership (2 years) More than $300 Executive Council Membership (life) Your ISPI "membership" contribution entitles you to receive "The ISPI Privacy Reporter" (our bi-monthly 12 page hard-copy newsletter in multi-contributor format) for the duration of your membership. For a contribution form with postal instructions please send the following message "ISPI Contribution Form" to ISPI4Privacy(a)ama-gi.com . We maintain a strict privacy policy. Any information you divulge to ISPI is kept in strict confidence. It will not be sold, lent or given away to any third party. ********************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address ********************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **********************************************

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IP: Wired News - The Golden Age of Hacktivism
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: Bridget973(a)aol.com Subject: IP: Wired News - The Golden Age of Hacktivism Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 21:56:06 EDT To: ignition-point(a)majordomo.pobox.com http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/15129.html The Golden Age of Hacktivism by Niall McKay 4:00 a.m. 22.Sep.98.PDT On the eve of Sweden's general election, Internet saboteurs targeted the Web site of that country's right-wing Moderates political party, defacing pages and establishing links to the homepages of the left-wing party and a pornography site. But the Scandanavian crack Saturday was not the work of bored juveniles armed with a Unix account, a slice of easily compiled code, and a few hours to kill. It advanced a specific political agenda. "The future of activism is on the Internet," said Stanton McCandlish, program director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation. "More and more, what is considered an offline issue, such as protesting the treatment of the Zapatistas in Mexico, is being protested on the Net." In the computer-security community, it's called "hacktivism," a kind of electronic civil disobedience in which activists take direct action by breaking into or protesting with government or corporate computer systems. It's a kind of low-level information warfare, and it's on the rise. Last week, for example, a group of hackers called X-pilot rewrote the home page of a Mexican government site to protest what they said were instances of government corruption and censorship. The group, which did not reply to several emails, made the claims to the Hacker News Network. The hacktivists were bringing an offline issue into the online world, McClandish said. The phenomenon is becoming common enough that next month, the longtime computer-security group, the Cult of the Dead Cow will launch the resource site hacktivism.org. The site will host online workshops, demonstrations, and software tools for digital activists. "We want to provide resources to empower people who want to take part in activism on the Internet," said Oxblood Ruffian, a former United Nations consultant who belongs to the Cult of the Dead Cow. Oxblood Ruffian's group is no newcomer to hacktivism. They have been working with the Hong Kong Blondes, a near-mythical group of Chinese dissidents that have been infiltrating police and security networks in China in an effort to forewarn political targets of imminent arrests. In a recent Wired News article, a member of the group said it would target the networks and Web sites of US companies doing business with China. Other recent hacktivist actions include a wave of attacks in August that drew attention to alleged human rights abuses in Indonesia. In June, attacks on computer systems in India's atomic energy research lab protested that country's nuclear bomb tests. More recently, on Mexican Independence Day, a US-based group called Electronic Disturbance Theater targeted the Web site of Mexican President Ernesto Zedillo. The action was intended to protest Zedillo's alleged mistreatment of the Zapatista rebels in Chiapas. Nearly 8,000 people participated in the digital sit-in, which attempted to overwhelm the Mexican president's Web servers. "What we are trying to do is to find a place where the public can register their dissatisfaction in cyberspace, so that your everyday [mouse] clicker can participate in a public protest," said EDT co-founder Ricardo. The apparent increase in hacktivism may be due in part to the growing importance of the Internet as a means of communication. As more people go online, Web sites become high-profile targets. It also demonstrates that many government sites are fairly easy to crack, said one former member of Milw0rm, the now defunct group that defaced the Indian research lab's Web site. In an interview in Internet Relay Chat, the cracker rattled off a list of vulnerable US government Web sites -- including one hosting an electron particle accelerator and another of a US politician -- and their susceptibility to bugs. "They don't pay enough for computer people," said the cracker, who goes by the name t3k-9. "You get $50,000 for a $150,000 job." Some security experts also believe that there is a new generation of crackers emerging. "The rise in political cracking in the past couple of years is because we now have the first generation of kids that have grown up with the Net," John Vranesevich, founder of the computer security Web site AntiOnline. "The first generation of the kids that grew up hacking are now between 25 and 35 - often the most politically active years in peoples' lives." "When the Cult of the Dead Cow was started in 1984, the average age [of our members] was 14, and they spent their time hacking soda machines," said Oxblood Ruffian. "But the last couple of years has marked a turning point for us. Our members are older, politicized, and extremely technically proficient." While hacktivists are lining up along one border, police and law enforcement officials are lining up along another. This year the FBI will establish a cyber warfare center called the National Infrastructure Protection Center. The US$64 million organization will replace the Computer Investigations and Infrastructure Threat Assessment Center and involve the intelligence community and the military. Allan Paller, director of research for the SANS Institute, said the FBI is staffing the new facility with the government's top security experts. "They are stealing people from good places, including a woman from the Department of Energy who was particularly good," he said in a recent interview. "They are taking brilliant people." Paller also said that a grassroots effort is under way in Washington to establish a National Intrusion Center, modeled after the Centers for Disease Control. "There is definitely an increased threat of cyber terrorism," said Stephen Berry, spokesman for the FBI press office in Washington. As offline protests -- which are protected in the United States by the constitution -- enter the next digital age, the question remains: How will the FBI draw the distinction between relatively benign online political protests and cyber terrorism? ********************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address ********************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **********************************************

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IP: ISPI Clips 5.12: New Fingerprint Chip - Protection vs. Privacy
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: "ama-gi ISPI" <offshore(a)email.msn.com> Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 5.12: New Fingerprint Chip - Protection vs. Privacy Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 00:34:02 -0700 To: <Undisclosed.Recipients(a)majordomo.pobox.com> ISPI Clips 5.12: New Fingerprint Chip - Protection vs. Privacy News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) Saturday October 3, 1998 ISPI4Privacy(a)ama-gi.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This From: The New York Times, September 28, 1998 http://www.nytimes.com PERSONAL COMPUTING: Tiny New Chip Could Pit Protection of Property Against Right of Privacy http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/98/09/cyber/compcol/29compcol-fixmer.ht ml By ROB FIXMER, rob(a)nytimes.com Tom Rowley seems uncomfortable in the role of braggart. A sheepish look comes over his face when he tells you, "We're going to change the way people live." But Rowley's assertion is not to be taken lightly. For one thing, he said those words once before, in the early 1980's, when the innovation he was introducing was a concept he called voice mail. For better or worse, he did change the way we live. The product that inspires his boast today is a humble-looking chip, about the size of a postage stamp and no thicker than a nickel. When attached to a computer, it reads fingerprints with a precision that meets the Federal Bureau of Investigation's standards for personal identification. Beginning early next year, consumers will see the fingerprint chip introduced in notebook computers, then in desktop devices. Every major manufacturer of computer hardware in the United States is believed to be in some stage of testing or developing products using the chip. Eventually, it is all but certain to be embedded in door and car locks, bank cards, cellular telephones, driver's licenses and the sundry other mundane objects that identify us as consumers and citizens and give us access to places and money. Rowley is the chief executive of Veridicom [ http://www.veridicom.com/ ], a tiny start-up company in Santa Clara, Calif. He is backed by venture capital from, among others, the Intel Corporation, which recognizes the chip's potential to open vast markets in consumer electronics, and Lucent Technologies, which owns the patents accrued by Bell Laboratories, where the chip was invented in the early and mid-1980's. Although the product, known as OpenTouch, is cutting-edge technology, it is low-tech by silicon standards, making it inexpensive to manufacture in large numbers. The Korean and Taiwanese companies under contract to produce it see Veridicom's chip as a way to milk a few more years from old fabrication plants that have already been fully depreciated and might otherwise be closed as obsolete. All of which means that the fingerprint chip, is going to be very inexpensive -- probably less than $10 per chip within 18 months of its introduction, and eventually even less, industry experts said. A low price means that it is almost certain to become far more widely used than voice mail, whether as OpenTouch, which Veridicom will introduce in November at the Comdex trade show, or as another company's competing product. Far less certain is the social and political impact of the fingerprint chip. It certainly can greatly enhance personal security. But depending on how it is used, it could have a profound impact on privacy, for better or worse. The paranoid will no doubt see in this chip a conspiracy by the Government or another Orwellian nightmare. The real threat, though, is not from Big Brother but from a legion of what a colleague refers to as "little brothers," business interests like magazine publishers, banks and indemnity companies that want to track our every move, profile our every passion, anticipate our every need either to persuade us to part with our money or to assess us as risks for credit or insurance. Credible identification cuts two ways when it comes to security and privacy. The same fingerprint reader that gives us secure access to our home or car can be used to trace our movements through office buildings, stores, schools and airports. That can be good or bad depending on the circumstances and what we are up to. I may not want anyone to know that I am in Room 1705 of the Acme Professional Building visiting my lawyer or psychiatrist or heart specialist or interviewing for a job -- unless the person tracking me is a fire marshal clearing a burning building. But if I lose my notebook computer on a flight to Seattle, I want to know that no one will be able to rifle through my files, because the manufacturer has frozen the code that reads the fingerprint chip so deeply in my computer's electronics that no amount of tampering will allow another person to boot it or to unscramble the data on my hard drive. On the other hand, without safeguards, the same fingerprint-identified passport that will be useless to a thief will allow governments around the world to track my every move. Perhaps the most ambiguous line between privacy threats and security will be the use of Veridicom's technology on the Internet. In many ways, it will be the ultimate "cookie," those files that Web sites place on our hard drives to identify us, or at least our computers, when we point our browsers in their direction. In some ways, this is beneficial. If the fingerprint reader on my computer serves as a certificate of identification when I buy something on line, the seller does not know my credit card number or whether I am paying with credit or cash. The seller may not even know my identity. Veridicom's chip assures the seller that I am who I claim to be without revealing who I am. Likewise, when used as an encryption key, the chip will guarantee that no one can unscramble and read my e-mail or other documents. But there is a darker side. Companies are already using cookies to create personal profiles of Internet users by aggregating every piece of information we surrender on Web sites. The very kinds of sites we visit reveal a great deal about us to those who want our money, and when we buy products or enter contests or register to use a site, we reveal not only who we are but a great deal about how we live. At the same time, a study released this summer by the Federal Trade Commission revealed that most businesses on the Web did not tell visitors how the information they surrendered would be used. In a few cases, the study found that companies sold information that they had promised users would be kept confidential. The Clinton Administration insists that for now, the infant electronic-commerce industries be allowed to police themselves in matters of privacy. That is frightening enough when our cookies give up information dropped on our treks through cyberspace. When everything we do on line can be tied to our credit and bank cards, driver's licenses and passports, the extra security we have gained might well be outweighed by the privacy we have lost. Not surprisingly, Tom Rowley spends most of his time these days trumpeting the potential benefits of his chip, but he does not deny its potential for mischief. After all, he admits, at times even voice mail "is a real pain." The social stakes this time around are a lot higher. PERSONAL COMPUTING is published weekly, on Tuesdays. Rob Fixmer at rob(a)nytimes.com welcomes your comments and suggestions. Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------ ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a regular bases (up to 3 - 8 clips per day) send the following message "Please enter [Your Name] into the ISPI Clips list: [Your e-mail address]" to: ISPIClips(a)ama-gi.com . The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small contributor-funded organization based in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada). ISPI operates on a not-for-profit basis, accepts no government funding and takes a global perspective. ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research into electronic, personal and financial privacy with a view toward helping ordinary people understand the degree of privacy they have with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise inform them about techniques to enhance their privacy. But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and generous financial support. If you value in the ISPI Clips service or if you are concerned about the erosion of your privacy in general, won't you please help us continue this important work by becoming an "ISPI Clips Supporter" or by taking out an institute Membership? We gratefully accept all contributions: Less than $60 ISPI Clips Supporter $60 - $99 Primary ISPI Membership (1 year) $100 - $300 Senior ISPI Membership (2 years) More than $300 Executive Council Membership (life) Your ISPI "membership" contribution entitles you to receive "The ISPI Privacy Reporter" (our bi-monthly 12 page hard-copy newsletter in multi-contributor format) for the duration of your membership. For a contribution form with postal instructions please send the following message "ISPI Contribution Form" to ISPI4Privacy(a)ama-gi.com . We maintain a strict privacy policy. Any information you divulge to ISPI is kept in strict confidence. It will not be sold, lent or given away to any third party. ********************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address ********************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **********************************************

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IP: Got a Cause and a Computer? You Can Fight City Hall
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: believer(a)telepath.com Subject: IP: Got a Cause and a Computer? You Can Fight City Hall Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 10:17:14 -0500 To: believer(a)telepath.com Source: New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/interactive-townhall.html October 3, 1998 Got a Cause and a Computer? You Can Fight City Hall By RICK LYMAN AUSTIN, Texas -- Bill Clinton seems to have generated the most petitions, calling for him to be impeached, to resign, to be left alone. Thirteen people have signed one demanding a ban on tigers and other exotic cats as pets. Eight favor the establishment of areas in national parks for nudists. But a petition demanding statehood for New York City attracted not a single signatory, not one, not even Donald Trump. In that dark epoch between the discovery of fire and the discovery of the World Wide Web, the Bolsheviks had to storm the Winter Palace to get their point across. Now it can all be done with the gentle click of a mouse button. "I got the idea when I was sitting at home in Austin watching a city council debate on cable television," Alex Sheshunoff, 24, said. "The issue they were discussing was very important, but the debate was really boring, enough to induce narcolepsy. I started wondering: How can you get citizens involved in the democratic process when they don't have time to spend three hours at a city council meeting waiting to make a three-minute statement?" His answer: E-The People, which describes itself as "America's Interactive Town Hall" and resides in cyberspace at www.e-thepeople.com. Those who find their way to the Web site, either directly or through one of the newspapers or nonprofit agencies that are Sheshunoff's partners, are given the chance to sign a petition already posted on the site, create a new petition or write a letter to government officials about whatever is stuck in their craw. "There have been a lot of people talking recently about the intersection of democracy and the Internet," Sheshunoff said, "but not a lot of people sitting down and writing the code. That's where we come in." E-The People has been open since August but is still trying to "stomp out the last of the bugs," Sheshunoff said, and should be fully operational in a month or so. The Web site, which also bills itself as "an Alex Sheshunoff Initiative," is designed to connect citizens with their government officials, local or national, and to turn a profit for Sheshunoff and his investors. For example, a Houston resident interested in protesting about the environment is led through a process of identifying whom he should contact (a click calls up a list that includes the governor, lieutenant governor, city council representative, 26 state representatives, eight state senators and 20 agency officials with specific responsibility for the environment). Then the resident can compose a message that is automatically sent as e-mail to whichever officials are selected, or as a fax, if the recipient has no e-mail address. It is all free for the petitioners and letter writers. Advertisers and media partners pay the freight. Messages can also be sent to the White House or to Congress, Sheshunoff said, but the central intent is to address local issues. "The president already received a half-million e-mails a month, but for a city council member to receive 10 letters on a single subject can have a real impact," he said. "This is really about local people solving local problems." The letters are treated as private mail, Sheshunoff said. E-The People takes no note of their content and promises it will sell none of the demographic data that might be collected in the process. Sheshunoff's initiative operates from an office on the 19th floor of a tower in downtown Austin, part of a suite of offices that are home to Alex Sheshunoff Management Services, the company run by his father, a well-known banking consultant. The younger Sheshunoff prowled his small room recently, a thatch of sandy hair brushing his forehead, occasionally grabbing for a purring cellular telephone while a team of young programmers hunched over keyboards frantically tapping in data. An American flag dominated one wall while a map of the United States filled another, showing the route of an 80-city transcontinental bus tour that Sheshunoff has been running to spread the word. The bus, decorated to resemble a mailbox, left Austin on Aug. 1 and has made its way across the Southwest, up the Pacific Coast and across the prairies into the Midwest, New England and New York. It is heading south on its return to Texas. So far, 45 newspapers have agreed to go into partnership with E-The People, meaning they will feature a link to the site on their own Web pages and share with E-The People any advertising revenues generated by surfers traversing that link. Among those signed up are The San Antonio Express-News, The Oregonian in Portland and The Daily News in New York. Sheshunoff is hoping for 100 media partners. Sheshunoff once considered a career in network television. While a student at Yale, he did some work for ABC News, as a production assistant and then reading his own short, personal essays in the wee hours. Then he read somewhere that the audience for network television news had dropped 30 percent since 1990. Sheshunoff said he spent his senior year "thinking about where news was going." This led him, as it has hundreds of others in his generation, to the Internet. His first effort was an online magazine developed as a way of allowing readers to pinpoint the restaurants and other venues nearest their homes. "We sold some of that underlying technology to newspapers and others, for their Web pages," he said. A similar process is used in E-The People, he said, but it is more sophisticated. "It's not as easy as it sounds," he said, "to take somebody's address and tell them who their elected officials are." Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company ----------------------- NOTE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml ----------------------- ********************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address ********************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **********************************************

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IP: ISPI Clips 5.13: Identity Theft is Huge & Growing
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: "ama-gi ISPI" <offshore(a)email.msn.com> Subject: IP: ISPI Clips 5.13: Identity Theft is Huge & Growing Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 00:35:01 -0700 To: <Undisclosed.Recipients(a)majordomo.pobox.com> ISPI Clips 5.13: Identity Theft is Huge & Growing News & Info from the Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) Saturday October 3, 1998 ISPI4Privacy(a)ama-gi.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This From: American Bar Association's, ABA Journal, October 1998 http://www.abanet.org IDENTITY THIEVES http://www.abanet.org/journal/oct98/10FIDENT.html Stealing someone's identity to buy everything from cars to toys and leaving the real person's credit rating in ruins may be the perfect crime because there is little that can be done to prosecute it. Until now. BY MICHAEL HIGGINS, higginsm(a)staff.abanet.org Sometime in the early 1990s, a con man named Scott Clinton Gilbert visited a resumé and printing shop in Las Vegas. His bill came to $185.30, and he paid in his usual fashion: He lied. Gilbert charged his purchase under the name "Robert Hartle." If anyone had questioned Gilbert's true identity, the scam artist was more than ready. He had obtained a "Robert Hartle" driver's license, Social Security card--even a birth certificate. Gilbert probably didn't think much of that small transaction. Before his fraud spree was done, he would stick the real Robert Hartle with debts of more than $110,000, including bills for three pickup trucks, two motorcycles and a double-wide mobile home. Gilbert, who later pleaded guilty to related charges, was one of thousands of criminals who quietly discovered what in an increasingly cashless society had become almost the perfect crime: identity theft. By posing as someone else, thieves found, they could steal in a way that left victims powerless and police uninterested. "It was a very easy crime," says Ed Mierswinsky, a consumer advocate at U.S. Public Interest Research Group in Washington, D.C. "Forget restitution. Consumers couldn't even obtain peace of mind" from seeing the criminals punished. Today, identity theft is still a vibrant and growing criminal enterprise, but its cover has been blown. Federal officials are holding summits and seminars to alert law enforcement officers to the crime. State legislators are pushing for tougher criminal penalties. And this fall, Congress is likely to vote on a bill that would make identity theft a federal felony, punishable by up to 15 years in prison. Another bill would give consumers more control over who has access to personal information, such as Social Security numbers. A '90s Kind of Crime: It's hard to say how widespread identity theft is because there is no standard definition of the crime. But sometime around 1994, the number of complaints to government, business and consumer groups began to explode. Last year, identity theft cost consumers and financial institutions some $745 million, according to the U.S. Secret Service, which has jurisdiction over many financial crimes. In 1992, about 35,000 people called the credit reporting agency Trans Union with questions or complaints about identity theft, the company reports. Last year, calls numbered more than 523,000. It is the victims themselves who've dragged the crime into the spotlight, demanding that lawmakers take action. Among them: an Arizona factory worker who helped initiate the new federal felony bill. He's a man who first learned about identity theft in 1994, when a collection agency called to ask why he hadn't paid his printing bill. He's Robert Hartle. Hartle, 46, was living with his wife, JoAnn, in Spirit Lake, Iowa, and working as an inspector at a foundry when he was thrust into identity-theft hell. The Hartles had been living frugally, with few bills, and made almost all their purchases in cash. But when Hartle got the strange call about the Las Vegas printing bill, he ordered a copy of his credit report. It told a different story, Hartle says. To the credit reporting agency and anyone who used its information, Hartle was a free-spending deadbeat. Luckier than most, Hartle had a lead on the culprit. He knew of a man going by the name of Carl Lee Lunden who had befriended his mother in Phoenix. In fact, "Lunden"--later found to be Gilbert--had persuaded the elderly woman, some 30 years his senior, to marry him, giving him access to Hartle family information. He had also made what Hartle had assumed was a joke about working under Hartle's name. Hartle traveled to Phoenix to present his case to police. That's where he learned something he found hard to believe. Even if he was right about "Lunden," the police didn't consider Hartle to be the victim of a crime. The law enforcement logic was this: Hartle wasn't legally obligated to pay any of the bills the impostor had run up. Therefore, Hartle wasn't out any money. If anyone was a victim, it was the bank that issued the credit card. Never mind that Gilbert had ruined Hartle's credit. Or that the creditors wouldn't erase the debts without a showing of fraud. Hartle found the police wouldn't even allow him to file a police report. "I offered to give [the detective] the evidence, and he refused to take it," Hartle recalls. "I told him that I was not a lawyer or a police officer, but I knew that crimes had been committed." By mid-1994, Hartle was in desperate shape. Gilbert had left Hartle's mother and fled Arizona, but hadn't stopped using his name. Hartle was spending $400 a month on phone calls, trying to get creditors off his back and law enforcement onto Gilbert. "Our credit was ruined. We couldn't move ahead with our lives. Everything was on hold," he says. "We couldn't continue to live like this." In Hartle's case, the con man he was chasing was crafty. Gilbert had moved to Phoenix from Florida, where he had a criminal record. But identity thieves don't need to be so devious. All that wouldbe thieves require is a credit card application and some basic personal information about their target. The key piece of information--the victim's Social Security number--is surprisingly easy to get. It's widely available on credit reports. And it's often the account number on documents that thieves can steal from their victims' mail or dig out from their garbage. Lawyers Can Be Victims, Too: Mari Frank, a lawyer in Laguna Niguel, Calif., found out firsthand how easily a scam artist can steal someone's name. In August 1996, Frank got a call from a bank in Delaware, asking why she hadn't paid an $11,000 balance on a Toys "R" Us credit card. When Frank asked where the bank had been sending the billing statements, she got an address in Ventura, Calif., about 80 miles north of her. It was Frank's first clue that an identity thief had run up bills of about $50,000 in her name. "She had gotten a red convertible Mustang that she was driving around --with my credit," says Frank, now an advocate for tougher identity theft laws. "She got a driver's license with my name." The thief in Frank's case was anything but sophisticated. She got Frank's credit report by saying she was a private investigator. To get the Toys "R" Us card, Frank says, the woman had simply crossed out her own name on the application and written in "Mari Frank." Another victim-turned-advocate is Jessica Grant, who also was shocked to find out how unprotected she was. Grant, a pension manager in Sun Prairie, Wis., had always used credit sparingly. But when she and her husband tried to refinance their home in December 1997, they found that an impostor had run up about $60,000 worth of debt in Grant's name. The thief, who lived in Texas, had opened 19 separate accounts. In some cases, the impostor got credit in Grant's name despite submitting applications with a residence and employer that didn't match Grant's. "That's the part of it that just infuriates me," Grant says. "There was just so much information that could have been--and should have been--questioned. But it never was." Dilemma of Enforcement: Like Hartle, both Frank and Grant found that local police did not consider them to be victims of crime. Both took their cases to federal law enforcement--the fbi and U.S. Secret Service--where they found good news and bad. Federal law does prohibit the fraudulent misuse of identification, bank cards and Social Security numbers. 18 U.S.C. 1028, 10 U.S.C. 1028, 42 U.S.C. 408. But, Frank and Grant both say, federal investigators told them they deal only with multistate fraud rings and cases worth upward of $200,000. Their cases didn't qualify. For the feds, it's a predicament, says James Bauer, a deputy assistant director in the Secret Service and a proponent of tougher identity theft laws. For example, Bauer's office is shutting down a fraud ring in which the thieves used stolen identities to buy cars, then cleverly leveraged their bounty. The thieves would take the car out of state, sell it, use the money to make a down payment on a house, then take out second mortgages on the house. "Multiply that times the 36 cars that we know about so far, and it amounts to literally millions of dollars," Bauer says. But while the feds have struggled to crack those sorts of operations, relatively small fish like Scott Gilbert have wriggled free. In theory, the banks that issue the credit cards--the real victims, in the eyes of local police--could push harder for prosecution. But according to U.S. Sen. Jon Kyle, R-Ariz., sponsor of the new federal identity theft bill, banks often have insurance to cover their losses. And they know their chances of getting any restitution may be slim. Even if police do investigate, identity theft cases can be expensive to prosecute, says Donald Grant, a Ventura County, Calif., deputy district attorney whose office handled Frank's case. Prosecutors have a strong incentive to work a plea deal because trying the case means paying to bring in bank employees as witnesses, as well as bank records from across the country, he says. They also know judges aren't likely to give jail time to nonviolent criminals, especially if the dollar amount is relatively small or the defendant is a first-time offender. "To prosecute these cases is a godawful pain in the neck," Grant says. If there's a trial, "We generate a lot of expense to taxpayers, and it's not a prison case. It's sort of a no-win situation for the victims," he concedes. And it's identity theft victims who are left trying to explain all this to creditors and collection agencies, who often suspect the victim of being the impostor. "I was getting outright, flat-out abusive treatment," says victim Grant. "I was in a position where I had to prove who I was, when they never bothered to ask [the thief] to prove who she was." By the time Hartle and his wife had moved to Phoenix to plead their case with law enforcement officials, Gilbert had fled. In November 1994, state police in New Hampshire picked him up on charges of trying to get a fake driver's license, Hartle says. Out on bail, Gilbert called Hartle and tried to get him to stop his pursuit. When Hartle refused, Gilbert taunted him. "He told me ... he wasn't going to quit using my identity until he felt like stopping," Hartle recalls. When Hartle threatened to track down Gilbert himself, "He laughed at me, said, 'Go ahead and try it because nobody's going to convict me.' " At the time, Hartle recalls, "It was beginning to look like he was right." But in early 1995, Hartle finally got a break. He had contacted U.S. Sen. Thomas Harkin, D-Iowa, and asked him to press federal prosecutors to help. In February 1995, they indicted Gilbert for buying guns under a false name and misusing a credit card. Gilbert pleaded guilty and was sentenced to 17 months in prison. But Hartle decided that wasn't enough. He turned to a state representative in Arizona, who pushed state prosecutors to reconsider Hartle's complaints. In October 1995, Gilbert pleaded guilty to perjury in state court and was sentenced to four years in prison. In total, Gilbert served a little more than three years. Not bad, Hartle says, "when you consider that when I started this, no one was interested." Hard to Pin Down: Despite what their victims go through, it's unusual for an identity thief to get a sentence as severe as Gilbert's. Take Mari Frank's case. She was fortunate to find a police supervisor in Ventura, himself a victim of identity theft, who ordered an investigation. Police arrested her identity thief in October 1996, Frank says. But the woman missed her sentencing hearing that December and remained free until police picked her up on other charges in January 1997. "She finally did a two-month work furlough program ... staying at a halfway house," Frank says. The thief drove to the program in the red Mustang she had bought with Frank's credit. "Violent crime does take precedence," Frank says. "I understand that. But the criminals know this is not really taken seriously. There [have] to be some identity thieves going to jail and doing some real time." Jessica Grant says she grew frustrated trying to get the Texas state police to take action. She eventually got help from the Houston police and an investigator with the Social Security Administration. As of July, the investigator had confronted a suspect and was preparing to file charges, Grant says. But identity theft itself isn't a crime in Texas. "The law that they're charging her with is the misuse of a Social Security number," Grant says. "She will probably not get jail time." All three victims paid a stiff price to clean up their credit records. Hartle estimates that he spent about $15,000 out of his own pocket during the ordeal. Grant says she has logged 158 hours, so far, trying to straighten out creditors. Frank, the lawyer, says she cleaned her credit record in eight months. But it took 90 letters, 500 hours and more than $10,000 in out-of-pocket expenses, she says. Beyond Bad Credit: For some victims, it gets even worse. Impostors have been known to commit crimes, then give their fake identity to police when they're arrested. "We're hearing more and more cases these days where the identity theft victim is saddled with a criminal record," says Beth Givens, project director at the Privacy Rights Clearinghouse, a San Diego-based group that aids identity theft victims. "That's what I call the worst-case scenario." Some victims may never learn of all the damage that was done, notes Jodie Bernstein, director of the Bureau of Consumer Protection of the Federal Trade Commission. "If your credit history is destroyed, you may not even know if it went to some potential employer and you didn't get a job," she says. "The victims we talk to eventually get it sorted out, but at great cost." Bauer of the Secret Service relates another story: "I know a [thief] out West who actually died using the victim's name," he says. The victim "had to get a death certificate undone." Hartle, Frank and Grant have pushed for reforms that are starting to change how the nation deals with identity theft. In Arizona, Hartle contacted his state legislator about making identity theft a serious crime that local police couldn't ignore. In July 1996, the state made it a felony--the first law of its kind in the nation. In California, Frank joined victims testifying last year on behalf of a bill that made identity theft a misdemeanor. As of July, she had testified eight more times in support of other identity theft measures, including one bill that would make it a felony in some circumstances. Frank, who works primarily as a mediator, also has written a book, From Victim to Victor: A Step-By-Step Guide for Ending the Nightmare of Identity Theft. And she has assembled a self-help kit and created a Web site, http://www.identitytheft.org , to assist victims. Frank says that because identity theft is so new, some lawyers misadvise clients. She has heard of lawyers counseling victims to change their Social Security number or declare bankruptcy, two strategies she says are counterproductive because they ultimately burden the victim with even more legal difficulties. Grant, lobbying in Wisconsin, got the quickest legislative action. In February, two months after she discovered she was a victim, Grant was the subject of a front-page article in the Wisconsin State Journal. State Rep. Marlin Schneider, an outspoken privacy hawk, introduced a bill in her name making identity theft a felony there. Grant visited the Wisconsin Capitol and talked to legislators, including one trip in March with a local TV-news camera crew in tow. The bill passed in April. When Gov. Tommy Thompson signed it into law, Grant got to keep the pen. And Hartle--four years after his first, confusing phone call about a $185.30 printing bill--hopes that this fall he will become one of the few victim-advocates to push through the same law at both the state and federal levels. With prodding from Hartle, Kyle, a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, introduced the Identity Theft and Assumption Deterrence Act last year. The act makes identity theft that crosses state lines a federal felony, punishable by up to 15 years in prison. It also allows restitution to victims. The larger war over who has control over personal information is one that will be fought well into the next century. Many issues are just now being identified. The financial and credit industries certainly have their share of political muscle. But don't count out those mistreated by the system--the Hartles, Franks and Grants. "They have lived through the Orwellian nightmare," consumer advocate Mierswinsky says. "The victims of identity theft are a force to be reckoned with." VICTIMS WORK TO KEEP PERSONAL DATA PRIVATE Although they've been the driving force behind identity theft laws in several states, the victims of this scam say what they've accomplished isn't nearly enough. Along with consumer groups, they're pushing for tougher restrictions on how businesses use personal information. High on their wish list: a bill introduced by U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., that would force businesses to get a person's consent before selling Social Security numbers and other personal data commonly found on credit reports. Consumer advocates blame banks and credit card companies for issuing preapproved credit applications and then not screening carefully enough for impostor applicants. They say merchants add to the problem by hawking "instant credit" cards at the checkout counter. "The lack of verification at that level is astounding," says Ed Mierswinsky, a consumer advocate at U.S. Public Interest Research Group in Washington, D.C. The credit reporting industry says it, too, is concerned about identity theft. Staffing has been increased on fraud hotlines, and sophisticated software is being put to use to detect spending patterns that may indicate fraud. Visa suffered $470 million in fraud losses in the United States last year, but only 4 percent was due to identity theft, says Dennis Brosan, Visa's vice president of fraud control in McLean, Va. That's down 12 percent from just a few years ago. But the credit reporting industry opposes restrictions on selling personal information. Officials say the information actually helps prevent identity theft because it makes it easier for banks and merchants to confirm whether people applying for credit are who they say they are. The data also accounts for tens of millions of dollars in annual sales for credit reporting agencies, the U.S. General Accounting Office reported in March. For lenders, there's a tension between serving customers who want tight security and those who bristle at being asked for three pieces of identification for every transaction. "All we can do is hope that the companies that have this ability to minimize the threat are doing everything they can," says Robert McKew, general counsel for American Financial Services Association, a trade group in Washington, D.C., whose members include many lenders. "I believe that they are." U.S. Sen. Jon Kyle, R-Ariz., sponsor of a new federal identity theft bill, says he is reluctant to blame lenders. "They're dealing with a lot of deadbeats, frankly, and everybody has a story," Kyle says. "It's very, very hard in today's world. In order to get credit you've got to give information. And once that information is in the commercial stream, it's very difficult to protect it." Michael Higgins, a lawyer, is a reporter for the aba Journal. His e-mail address is higginsm(a)staff.abanet.org. Copyright American Bar Association. American Bar Association 750 N. Lake Shore Dr., Chicago, IL 60611 312/988-5000 info(a)abanet.org --------------------------------NOTICE:------------------------------ ISPI Clips are news & opinion articles on privacy issues from all points of view; they are clipped from local, national and international newspapers, journals and magazines, etc. Inclusion as an ISPI Clip does not necessarily reflect an endorsement of the content or opinion by ISPI. In compliance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is distributed free without profit or payment for non-profit research and educational purposes only. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ISPI Clips is a FREE e-mail service from the "Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues" (ISPI). To receive "ISPI Clips" on a regular bases (up to 3 - 8 clips per day) send the following message "Please enter [Your Name] into the ISPI Clips list: [Your e-mail address]" to: ISPIClips(a)ama-gi.com . The Institute for the Study of Privacy Issues (ISPI) is a small contributor-funded organization based in Victoria, British Columbia (Canada). ISPI operates on a not-for-profit basis, accepts no government funding and takes a global perspective. ISPI's mandate is to conduct & promote interdisciplinary research into electronic, personal and financial privacy with a view toward helping ordinary people understand the degree of privacy they have with respect to government, industry and each other and to likewise inform them about techniques to enhance their privacy. But, none of this can be accomplished without your kind and generous financial support. If you value in the ISPI Clips service or if you are concerned about the erosion of your privacy in general, won't you please help us continue this important work by becoming an "ISPI Clips Supporter" or by taking out an institute Membership? We gratefully accept all contributions: Less than $60 ISPI Clips Supporter $60 - $99 Primary ISPI Membership (1 year) $100 - $300 Senior ISPI Membership (2 years) More than $300 Executive Council Membership (life) Your ISPI "membership" contribution entitles you to receive "The ISPI Privacy Reporter" (our bi-monthly 12 page hard-copy newsletter in multi-contributor format) for the duration of your membership. For a contribution form with postal instructions please send the following message "ISPI Contribution Form" to ISPI4Privacy(a)ama-gi.com . We maintain a strict privacy policy. Any information you divulge to ISPI is kept in strict confidence. It will not be sold, lent or given away to any third party. ********************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address ********************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **********************************************

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Re: [SoftSpeech] Interplay between Crypto Export Regs and Copyright (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 23:53:01 +0100 > From: Adam Back <aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk> > Subject: Re: [SoftSpeech] Interplay between Crypto Export Regs and Copyright > Recall PRZ himself did not export anything, and yet the Feds were > building the case on the basis that he allowed it to be exported, or > did not try hard enough to prevent it being exported. Rumor has it > that a low profile cypherpunk type, Kelly Goen, had something to do > with it, and he was the lesser publicized 2nd defendent in the USG > investigation of PRZ and associate. If this approach is so air-tight why is PRZ still walking around a free man? ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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IP: CNS - Justice Department Seeks Expanded Power
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: "A.C." <angie(a)computerhut.net> Subject: IP: CNS - Justice Department Seeks Expanded Power Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 00:13:37 -0700 To: ignition-point(a)majordomo.pobox.com >Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 13:18:40 -0500 >From: Jim Groom <gs924jfj(a)mon-cre.net> >To: Current Events <gs924jfj(a)mon-cre.net> >Subject: CNS - Justice Department Seeks Expanded Power > >http://www.conservativenews.org/indepth/welcome.html > >Justice Department Seeks Expanded Power > >01 October, 1998 > >By Ben Anderson >CNS Staff Writer > >(CNS) The United States Justice Department is seeking to expand its >authority and "obtain massive new enforcement powers" just days before a >busy Congress scurries to finish business, according to Representative >Bob Barr (R-GA). > >If the Justice Department has its wishes, according to Barr, it could >establish a "permanent FBI Police Force." The Justice Department is >allegedly trying to get their "wish list" attached to appropriations >bills to avoid public hearings or debate. > >Barr obtained a "wish list" by the Department which includes expanding >definitions of terrorism to include domestic crimes unrelated to >terrorism. The Department is also seeking to seize commercial >transportation assets for federal use and the ability to commandeer >personnel from other federal agencies without reimbursement. > >"These requests belong in some bizarre conspiracy novel," Barr said, >"not in serious legislative documents being circulated at the top levels >of federal law enforcement." > >In addition to forcing telephone and Internet companies to divulge >information on their customers, Justice Department officials are also >seeking to expand wiretap authority to allow "roving" wiretaps, and >wiretaps without any court authority, according to Barr. > >"These proposals represent a sneak attack on the most cherished >principles of our democracy. If they become a part of our law, freedom >and privacy in America will be permanently and severely diminished," >Barr said. > >Barr released information yesterday to expose the Justice Department's >efforts. Barr spokesman Brad Alexander told CNS the department typically >waits until the congressional atmosphere is clouded with lots of >legislation to lobby sympathetic Congressmen. > >Alexander told CNS the wiretapping issue is something the Justice >Department tries to expand at the end of every congressional session. > >Three phone calls made to the Justice Department by CNS were not >returned by press time. > >### >---------------------------------------------------------------------- September 29, 1998 http://www.house.gov/barr/p_doj.html BARR EXPOSES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE POWER GRAB WASHINGTON, DC -- U.S. Representative Bob Barr (GA-7) released today information exposing an effort by the Department of Justice to obtain massive new enforcement powers in the closing days of the 105th Congress. Barr obtained the information from a confidential source within federal law enforcement. Among other things, the Department's "wish list" for new authority includes (among others): + A vastly expanded definition of terrorism to include domestic crimes having no relationship to terrorism. + The power to seize commercial transportation assets for federal use. + The ability to commander personnel from other federal agencies without reimbursement. + Expanded wiretap authority to allow "roving" wiretaps, and wiretaps without any court authority. + Enlarged asset forfeiture provisions to allow the FBI to seize personal property in both criminal and civil matters. + The establishment of a permanent "FBI Police Force." + Loosening of Posse Comitatus restrictions to allow more military involvement in domestic law enforcement. + Authority to force telephone and Internet companies to divulge information on their customers. "These requests belong in some bizarre conspiracy novel, not in serious legislative documents being circulated at the top levels of federal law enforcement. These proposals represent a sneak attack on the most cherished principles of our democracy. If they become a part of our law, freedom and privacy in America will be permanently and severely diminished," said Barr. Barr also noted the Department and the FBI are "shopping" this wish list in an effort to get the items placed in a spending measure without hearings or debate. ********************************************** To subscribe or unsubscribe, email: majordomo(a)majordomo.pobox.com with the message: (un)subscribe ignition-point email@address ********************************************** www.telepath.com/believer **********************************************

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Re:Your inquiry
by user6＠new-century-commerce.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, If you want to promote your product or service legitimately to 100,000's of people per week. Bring your product or service to an audiance that is generally more affluent and technologically aware than any other. Our method will bring your product to the personal attention of 100,000's of potential customers very effectively and inexpensively. Please note we only accept responsible ethical advertisers. For more information email user6(a)new-century-commerce.com. We also design State Of The Art Websites, our sites are designed in dual html and flash multimedia animation. Even if you have an existing Website which needs spicing up or you need to gather customer information we can provide the skills and CGI programming to implement your requirements. If you are interested please contact us and we will be happy to show you our online portfolio of Websites. Our Websites are truely unbelievable!!!!

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Microsoft
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I'd always wondered how Bill Gates could shit with that pole so far up his ass. Then I realized: The pole is too long to be completely embedded in his ass and he uses the other half of it to rape computer users everywhere on a regular basis. And since the pole is crammed in his ass he can't shit, so he just retains his shit, making him incredibly anal retentive. I'm sure he enjoys this.

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Please include me
by KCzzzzz＠aol.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Include me on your mailing list

3 2

Q to cypherpunks. WAS:Re: Please stop forwarding Canadian Firearms Digest to Cypherpunks List!
by Jean-Francois Avon 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Q for you CPunks: did PGP v.5.5.3i was truly peer-reviewed for flaws or backdoors? If not, which is that last version that was? On Sat, 03 Oct 1998 14:20:42 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >Hi! Of course most of us believe that firearms registration is wrong >and that the right to own weapons is the right to be free, >and I suppose it is a break from Clinton&Monica rants, >but still, please stop forwarding the Canadian firearms stuff to >the cypherpunks list. Is is not about the right to be free, it is about govt organizing seriously to deny that right. :-S OK, I'll stop. No problemo Bill. OTOH, I will still post articles with relevance to crypto from the list or elsewhere. Some of thoses articles will possibly have nothing to do with crypto except that they will be modifications or subtleties of ITAR. Just so you know: I spend a lot of keystrokes teaching PGP to various peoples nowadays... Ciao all C'Punks. jfa Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds (Montreal), Canada Unregistered Firearms in the hands of honest citizens: Liberty's Teeth Strong Cryptographic tools in the hands of honest citizens: Liberty's Voice He who beats his sword into a ploughshare will get coerced to plow for those who don't... PGP keys: http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html PGP ID:C58ADD0D:529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 PGP ID:5B51964D:152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C

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Re: Please include me
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

piss off! ME FIRST! >From cypherpunks-errors(a)toad.com Sat Oct 3 22:43:06 1998 >Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 05:06:01 GMT >Message-Id: <199810040506.FAA29119(a)earth.wazoo.com> >From: Anonymous <nobody(a)earth.wazoo.com> >Comments: This message did not originate from the Sender >address above. >It was remailed automatically by anonymizing remailer software. >Please report problems or inappropriate use to the >remailer administrator at <wazoo(a)wazoo.com>. >Subject: Re: Please include me >References: <80e9319b.3616faed(a)aol.com> >To: cypherpunks(a)toad.com >Sender: owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com >Precedence: bulk > > Include me on your mailing list >Me too!!!! >-- an anonymous AOL31 user

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Dial 1-800-SPY TECH
by Blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I was surfing the web, looked at http://www.spaceinvestor.com/, when I noticed an article with the above title, referring to this company: Applied Signal Technology (APSG) Spy vs Spy gadgetry for the 21st Century. This company is the quality producer of surveillance equipment and is on track for consistent revenue gains of 15 - 20%... (also see Quarterly Earnings Report) Copied below are a couple of paragraphs about the company: In actuality the new Spy is a technological marvel of electronic hardware, computers, and software, that manifests into the latest high tech signal reconnaissance equipment. And the best of these new Techno-Bonds that process, evaluate, and store wireless telecommunications signals are produced by a small Silicon Valley company called Applied Signal Technology. Applied Signal Technology, stock ticker symbol: APSG, is a leader in the growing niche market of signal reconnaissance. Applied Signal Technology designs equipment to collect and process foreign telecommunication signals. The company's products include equipment that scans cellular-telephone, microwave, ship-to-shore, and military-radio-frequency transmissions; computer-based processing equipment then evaluates collected signals and selects those likely to contain relevant information. Over 95% of the company's revenue is derived from purchases by United States government agencies under contracts. [....] Investors should consider adding APSG to their long term portfolio. It has positive characteristics of a stock ready to surge higher. Hopefully an APSG stock price increase will become the sequel to "The Spy who loved me". .. Blanc

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Fire the Boss and Break the Alarm Clock!
by bill301＠success600.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Ordered to be celibate?
by Rain Dog 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Judge Orders Teen To Be Celibate CAMBRIDGE, Ill. (AP) -- A teen-ager who pleaded guilty to stealing handguns must remain celibate for 2 1/2 years unless he gets married, a judge said. Brandon Stevens, 17, was sentenced Wednesday to 30 months probation, 180 days in jail and a $2,000 fine. Henry County Judge Clarke Barnes said Stevens won't have to serve jail time if he completes treatment at a halfway house and meets conditions that include the celibacy rule. ``Certainly he's got no business having sexual relations with people to whom he's not married,'' Barnes said. Prosecutor Ted Hamer said the requirement was based on the judge's learning in court that Stevens was sexually active, not because of any sexually related charges. The American Civil Liberties Union said Stevens' sex life is none of the judge's business. And it's not clear how to enforce Barnes' order. ``It's sort of a self-policing type of order,'' Hamer said. ``Nobody's going to be spying on him or looking in windows. I think the judge just hopes he'll abide by the order.'' ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: "Brown, R Ken" <brownrk1(a)texaco.com> > Subject: RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 05:28:08 -0500 > I don't believe there are that many natural monopolies Where there *are* > natural monopolies it is because the entry cost is higher than any likely > profit. There are some additional issues involved other than start-up cost. Such things as market saturation and information hording. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering <mgering(a)ecosystems.net> > Subject: RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 02:43:25 -0700 > One thing that has changed fundamentally in the Information Age is the > ability for the consumer to get informed -- the ease if information > publishing and retrieval and the inability to control it. Actualy you are ascribing an effect as the cause. The information is there because the holders believe it's in their best interest to dissiminate it. As companies (the US Army' current behaviour is a good example) become to respect the distribution capability of the internet you'll see a reduction of information available. > Reputation has > more value then ever. Malarky. Reputation is irrelevant, just examine the prisoners delima. Those who put reputation over action are setting themselves up for a classic abuse of trust. > Government cannot protect people from their own decisions, and should > not have the right to take those decisions away. > I wouldn't eat at McDonalds even with all the regulation. You've got to be married or have lots of free time...;) > More often than not regulation is a false sense of security, and often > protects companies from legitimate liability (although god knows our > liability/tort system is completely out of whack). More often that not regulation is the result of abuse of the market by a manufacturer and is imposed ex post facto. It's intent is to eliminate future abuses. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering <mgering(a)ecosystems.net> > Subject: RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 02:26:21 -0700 > > In what way are the resulting markets different from > > either the producers or consumers view? > > Views on intellectual property and the obvious marketplace changes due > to an IP or lack of IP framework would be the major difference IMHO. I Explain further, from your description of the differences there are no fundamental mentionings or views of intellectual property. As a matter of fact the specific role of the individual is never even mentioned in either definition. It's almost like there is something poping out of thin air... > > Explain further what you mean by abolition of force is a > > prerequisite please. > > Basically no person (or entity) can use force (or its derivatives) > against another person (or entity). Your long history of criminal law, > except stripped of all victimless crimes. So people don't have a right to self-defence? I agree consensual crimes are not crimes. > > And what specificaly do you mean by proper role of government? > > "What, then, is law? It is the collective organization of the individual > right to lawful defense. Is it? Or is it simply another sort of coercion to cooperate with the collective? Is it not actualy the embodyment of ideals, an attempt at utopia if you will? > Each of us has a natural right--from God--to defend his person, his > liberty, and his property. These are the three basic requirements of > life, and the preservation of any one of them is completely dependent > upon the preservation of the other two. For what are our faculties but > the extension of our individuality? And what is property but an > extension of our faculties? I'm interesting to see how you reconcile the belief nobody has a right to use force yet has a right to defend their life. By facluty I assume you mean our emotional and psychological makeup coupled with our sensory record of them. I'd say that such issues are not a facet of individualism but rather a characteristic of life itself. As to property, it is a consequence of our biology, if that is a consequence of our faculties, and not visa versa, I'd doubt. > If every person has the right to defend -- even by force -- his person, > his liberty, and his property, then it follows that a group of men have > the right to organize and support a common force to protect these rights No it doesn't. You must first prove that a group of individuals have some right that as individuals they don't have. For one thing, even in your definition, rights are a fundamental aspect of birth as an individual. Something I've yet to see. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 22:33:24 -0700 > From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> > Subject: RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > In america the various mafias get plently of competition, > mostly by means short of actual warfare. Coke is a free > market except for police intervention, and the local church > is most certainly not a monopoly. Coke is a free-market? That's a laugh. I suggest you study the history of the Crips and related gangs, or the international Coke distributors. At no time was there more than a dozen or so groups and they worked cooperatively in many cases. As to the 'various mafias', in case you hadn't heard, they've been organized and integrated for about 30-40 years depending on who you ask. They cooperatively divide up territories and product lines between them to guarantee a minimum of violence and maximize profit for each member. However, I would lay dollars to donuts that if you were to go start your own family there would be very little consideration as to the consequences. Make no bones about it, if we're talking national or international crime it is most definitely organized and cooperatively arranged between a small set of players. That's a monopoly. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 22:33:24 -0700 > From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> > Subject: RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > market except for police intervention, and the local church > is most certainly not a monopoly. Your local church is a member of a larger international collective that does in fact use coercion in one form or another. Consider the consequences of abortion for a Catholic (true believer). Tell that to the various hospices and clinics that have been blown to kingdom come... Coercion is a much broader stroke than a simple assault. It can include real and imagined consequences to alter or limit the behaviour of others. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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IP: Clear and present danger: FIGHT AGAINST NATIONAL ID CARD (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 21:42:38 +0200 > From: "Albert P. Franco, II" <apf2(a)apf2.com> > Subject: IP: Clear and present danger: FIGHT AGAINST NATIONAL ID CARD > (fwd) > I think the original message speaks of executive, legislative, and judicial > branches. As defined by the constitution this is, in fact, the federal > government. > As a matter of practice, most if not all, of the states are > also divided this way. Article X which you quoted supports the tacit > understanding that We, the people, are not actually THE government. Really? Please expound... We, the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. ARTICLE IX. The enumeration of the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. ARTICLE X. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- It in fact supports NO such interpretation unless you take it out of context and alone. Much like trying to determine the ecology of a valley by examinging a single fish... In fact what it does say is that the Constitution was implimented by the people and not by a government *granting* rights and privileges. It futher states that it does not limit the rights or privileges of the people (note it doesn't mention federal or state govts.) futher backing up that we the people are implimenting this and not the other way around. Finaly it specificaly states that the order of resolution for any issue is to see if it's specificaly given to the federal govt., if not (and it's not prohibited), then to the states (to resolve via their own representative systems), and finaly if not covered by those two documents (the US Constitution and the individual state constitution) then it is retained by the people. So we find that in fact we the people *are* the initial and final authority. The bottem line is that *the government of the United States* consists of three parties, the federal system, the state, and the people. That is the government of this country and not some figmented heirarchy that has zero basis for support. The reason the federal is broken into 3 seperate sections is so that there is a measure of conflict and confrontation involved. *THE* basis for a working democracy is the limited use of cooperation. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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----> http://stuffed.net/98/10/4/ <----
by STUFFED NEWS DAILY 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Welcome to today's issue of Stuffed. To read it you should click on the URL above. If it is not made clickable by your email program you will need to use your mouse to highlight the URL, copy it and then paste it into your browser (then press Return). This email is never sent unsolicited. Stuffed is the supplement for the Eureka newsletter you subscribed to. Full instructions on unsubscribing are in every issue of Eureka! ----> http://stuffed.net/98/10/4/ <----

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Court considers cooking cookies' book - THE REGISTER
by Stu Green 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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http://jya.com/ECHELON-GO.htm
by interception 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: interception <interception(a)ii-mel.com> Subject: http://jya.com/ECHELON-GO.htm french centers of electronic interceptions are in: 1 - Agde 2 - Rohrbach-les-Bitch 3 - Domme 4 - Mützig, 5 - Alluets-Feucherolles 6 - Celar (Army) (fax, scramble,...): 950 people in Rennes 7 - Security Squad and electronic war (4 squads) in Metz 8 - Plateau d'Albion: 150 people 9 - Boat: Cargo le Bercy 10- Bouar (Centrafrican Républic) 11- Solenzara (Corse) 12- St-Barthélemy (Guadeloupe) 13- Réunion 14- Mayotte, Djibouti 15- Kourou Spatial Base (Guyane) 16- United Arab Emirates 17- New Caledonia In spite of Echelon http://www.ii-mel.com/interception/echelongb.htm french electronic interception are practiced in the USA Masson http://www.ii-mel.com/interception

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Increase your website traffic dramitcally!
by tlmjc＠msn.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 11:37:23 -0700 > From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> > Subject: RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > At 12:30 AM 10/1/98 -0700, Matthew James Gering wrote: > > Regulation includes much more than licensing and > > registration. Try hiring a couple employees, paying > > freelance individuals, setup office space, get yourself a > > company car and do your fed income taxes. Lightly regulated > > my ass. If they enforced every word of every code strongly > > and literally it would be nearly impossible to conduct > > business. > > To the best of my observation, every single small business is > operating illegally. The situation differs from Russia only > in degree, not in kind Prove it. List he specific rules, regulations, etc. that you believe every small business is breaking.... Put up or shut up. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 12:50:50 -0700 > From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> > Subject: RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > At 09:08 AM 10/4/98 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: > > Your local church is a member of a larger international=20 > > collective that does in fact use coercion in one form or > > another. > > Send me some of whatever you are smoking. That's the best you can come up with? Sheesh. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 12:48:50 -0700 > From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> > Subject: RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > Except for police intervention, anyone is free to buy coke > from dealers affiliated with the Crips, affiliated with the > Bloods, or affiliated with any one of several smaller > providers of such services. Really? I dare you to wear the colors of a Crip and then sell in the Bloods neighborhood. > Generally competition between these groups mostly resembles > the competition between Visa and Mastercard with shoot outs > being the exception rather than the rule. Shootouts are bad > for business.=20 Somebody should tell them this then since they certainly don't operate that way in the real world. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Microsoft got to where it is because of a lack of regulation Microsoft is not a monopoly by any stretch of the imagination. > The railroad industry in the mid-1800's. Railroads were highly competitive in the East. The railroad monopolies in the West were created by exclusive government land grants. Matt

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 12:42:58 -0700 > From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> > Subject: RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > Microsoft is not a monopoly. In servers, where much of their > income comes from, Malarky, MS makes the vast majority of their money off end-user and single machine licenses. Look at their quarterly or yearly earning statements. > Linux is eating their lunch, It is certainly growing but the fact is that by a factor of orders of magnitude commercial Unix'es own that market. When it comes to mission critical servers Solaris, HP, & AIX own the market still. > and the > desktop is under continual threat. For a monopoly to be a > monopoly, you not only have to have most of the market, you > have to have some means of excluding others, which Microsoft > manifestly does not. Not from a lack of trying on their part and the fact that federal regulators stepped in before it became totaly regulated. > You are totally deluded. None of these are examples of > monopoly, Certainly they were. Each and every example listed (and many more) were industries which were controlled by a small number of companies whose share in the total market was squeezing out competition. The results would have been a growing number of buyouts and thinning of competition to the point that only one or two companies would have survived. except for the railroad industry where government > intervention was for the purpose of creating monopoly, not > preventing it. In the aircraft industry for example, while the number of riders was growing very quickly there was a concommitent increase in end-user ticket prices that was way out of line with the increased cost of business operations as well as a decrease in the overall safety of the industry which was exemplified by a increase in the number of air crashes and aircraft who couldn't pass maintenance inspections yet continued to fly. > The garment and food packing industries were and are a huge > network of innumerable tiny shops, All working for about 5 or 6 companies who actlualy marketed and distributed the items. Just get a Dallas Texas phone book for that period (it's a distribution hub for the clothing/garment industry even today). > and the aircraft industry > had several big companies in fierce competition.=20 Yep, in the mid-50's there were like 5 national/international aircraft operators and the number of commercial avaition manufacturers selling to the national and international carrier market was like 3. There were smaller companies like Ryan for example but they were owned by the larger companies and eventualy merged into the regular operations. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

4 3

RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering <mgering(a)ecosystems.net> > Subject: RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 13:14:16 -0700 > > Microsoft got to where it is because of a lack of regulation > > Microsoft is not a monopoly by any stretch of the imagination. They own 90% of the desktops in this country, that's a monopoly or a company a hair-breadth's away. > > The railroad industry in the mid-1800's. > > Railroads were highly competitive in the East. The railroad monopolies > in the West were created by exclusive government land grants. Not true until after the 1890's. Prior to that the railroads in the US were owned by a total of like 5 people. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 12:35:49 -0700 > From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> > Subject: RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > > Malarky. Reputation is irrelevant, just examine the > > prisoners delima. > > Yet strange to report, the banks have no problem with granting me many tens > of thousands of dollars of unsecured credit. Which is exactly my point, default on a single one of those and watch what happens. > Perhaps your reputation is irrelevant. Mine, however, is obviously= > relevant. Only to you. What is important is the *fact* that you continue paying the bills. Default and all the *desire* in the world won't bring back those loans. > The continued solvency of Informix, rental car agencies, and so on and so > forth looks indicates it is possible to readily distinguish between those > who will defect in a game of prisoners dilemma, and those who will= > cooperate. That's so funny. Please produce the amount Informix lost by employee theft last year for example. If it's zero then you may have a point. I'll bet you it wasn't and isn't. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Find Out Anything About Anyone On The Net !!!!
by abayley＠pop.ihug.co.nz 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 12:11:04 -0700 > From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> > Subject: RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd) > At 05:28 AM 10/2/98 -0500, Brown, R Ken wrote: > > Nonsense. Most of those businesses became monopolies - or > > local monopolies - in the relatively unregulated 1880-1914 > > period.=20 > > Untrue: Actualy it is. But I'd certaily entertain any evidence you may want to present to your case...other than just saying it over and over. > > In some of them - like rail or oil in the USA - governments > > introduced regulation to *force* competition.=20 > > In the case of the railways, the governments granted and > imposed monopolies. Only after the early 1890's when the situation got so bad they had to do something. Prior to that there was no federal intervention in railroad operations per se (I say that because the US government used the railroads at a very hefty discount). > In the case of oil, I assume you are > referring to "Standard Oil", there was no monopoly, and the > government regulation had little apparent effect.=20 You assume wrong. I am talking of the entire oil industry as a whole. > Also the Standard Oil issue was about refineries, not oil > wells or oil pipelines. There was nothing to prevent any man > or his dog from setting up a refinery, and lots of them did. The issue in the oil industry isn't the refineries or pipelines or any of that other stuff. It's mineral rights. And every drop of mineral rights in this country is owned by oil companies or the US government as a result of the conflicts that took place from the late 1800's to the early 1900's. > > Recently government has forcibly broken up gas supply > > monopolies in this country. =20 > > After first forcibly creating gas supply monopolies. Actualy the local and state regulators did that back in the late 50's and early 60's the federals had no hand in it. The same happend prior to the TVA projects of the late 20's and 30's with the electric production industry. > > What happens much more often is that one company becomes > > dominant and then uses money to undersell rivals. > > Why don't you argue that they conduct sacrifices to Satan? Because then he would be doing what you like to do, change the subject and claim it's the same thing. > A big company has no monetary advantage over a small company. You know nothing of how large businesses work over small ones then. > Suppose Firm A controls 90% of the market and firm B controls > 10% of the market. Artificially low prices cost the big firm > nine times as much as the small firm. Bullshit math. The interactions are nowhere near as simple as you state. The big company has the resources to outlast the smaller company in any industry that can monopolize (an issue you seem to miss, not all industries can monopolize) and if its' smart will buy the smaller company at some point (unless prevented) as the smaller companies becomes resource starved. > Under capitalism, the > small company can duke it out on equal terms with the big > firm, and with great regularity, that is exactly what they > do. Examples please where a small firm dukes it out (sic) on equal terms with a larger one... > Garbage (what we call rubbish over here) collection is > > different again. It's not at all a nutural monopoly and > > there is nothing stopping anyone offering to do it as a > > business. But it is a natural for social ownership, > > You mistake the political adventures of your local elite for > universal laws. In some parts of the world rubbish > collection is private. In just about everyplace in the US the company doing the trash collection and dumping is private, especialy in the bigger cities. They may be working under contract for the city but the company is privately held. My suspicion is that most places on the planet, excluding control markets like Cuba, use private companies under contract for this. > In other parts of the world shoe > production is public. What country produces shoes as a function of government agency and prevents private shoe production? I must admit I nearly hurt myself laughing at this one. > In one of those nordic countries, I think Finland, the phone > system was never made a public enterprise or state regulated > monopoly, but most other things were. Then how does it operate? Who owns the switches and wires? Either it's a public utility or it's some sort of private enterprise (though it may be under contract to the government). > There is no "natural monopoly" that is not somewhere a A 'natural' monoploy, to my mind, is a company that operates in an industry that can be saturated. By saturation I mean that the demand of the market can be met by a small number (approaching 1 if left unregulated over time, usualy by by-outs or business experation) of manufacturers. The VCR industry is a great example of a 'natural' monopoly. Only a few years ago *every* VCR mechanism on the planet was made by one of 5 companies and with the cessation of Curtis-Williams, not one of them was a US company. It is not possible to buy a VCR designed and made in the US today because of this market monopolization. It is also impossible to start such a company because the costs of market entry are too enormous. There is *no* government regulation of the VCR industry outside of EOE issues to this day. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: I thought of an initialy regulated industry!... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 11:40:34 -0700 > From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)echeque.com> > Subject: Re: I thought of an initialy regulated industry!... > Observe that the level of harm is approximately proportional > to the level of government regulation. Please be so kind as to demonstrate by example why you believe that by de-regulating the food industry, for example, we would recieve better quality foodstuffs? Without regulation why would these companies quit mixing their products and making better systems of quality control so that the cases of E. Coli for example would decrease? Why is it that the number of deaths in this country from salmonella and related food diseases have *decreased* since the industry was regulated in the early 1920's when the problem (people getting sick or dying from adulterated foodstuffs) was at its peak? Just look at the current issues related to non-pasteurized fruit juice prodcts for a current example of the consequences of free-market economics lack of regulation and by extension responsibility and the consequences thereof. > You presuppose that government officials will be more > virtuous than private individuals. This is obviously > unlikely, since they have less reason to fear retribution > than private individuals. It's the private companies fearing retribution from the government, not the end user. Your reasoning is faulty. In an industry that is completely unregulated by anyone other than the consumer and the producer the consumer will be taken advantage of. The reason is that there is no real-world market force that will force compliance. Now some are going to scream that the consumer will, the problem is that the consumer is denied the information about/from the producer they require in order to make the reasoned judgement. The bottem line as to why free-market economies don't work is that it isn't in the producers best interest to have a educated consumer. They might buy somebody elses product or start their own company. Both of those are bad for profits. Free-market mavens forget that producers are just as greedy and corrupt as everyone else, there is no fair competition in an unregulated market given the pshychological make up of human beings. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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No Subject
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:59 PM 10/3/98 -0400, Michael Motyka wrote: >> There is a desert which is 1000 miles across. There is a camel who can carry >> 1000 bananas maximum. The camel eats 1 banana per mile travelled. The camel >> has a total of 3000 bananas to begin with. What is the maximum number of >> bananas that the camel can get across to the other side uneaten? > >My camels don't understand/can't eat fractional bananas. Why are bananas quantized in the presense of camels? Is this a quantum-computing thing?

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17 Dec '03

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1 0

Re: propose: `cypherpunks license' (Re: Wanted: Twofish source code) (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 01:04:20 +0100 > From: Adam Back <aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk> > Subject: Re: propose: `cypherpunks license' (Re: Wanted: Twofish source code) > If your aim is to maximise crypto deployment, use BSD or some other > relatively free distribution license other than GNU, so that we can > more rapidly write and deploy crypto software to undermine the power > of the state. With the proviso that the original author looses all access to profits from that code, effectively doing the R&D for untold numbers of companies without compensation or even recognition (they can claim it's all theirs at that point because they don't have to release the source). ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

2 1

RE: I thought of an initialy regulated industry!... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: "Blanc" <blancw(a)cnw.com> > Subject: RE: I thought of an initialy regulated industry!... (fwd) > Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:09:55 -0700 > Free market economices don't "work", simply because they are run by humans, who regularly suffer > psychological breakdowns, envy, and mistakes of judgement, not to mention disreputable marketing > departments. Regulated economies, however, are run by government drones, and are therefore perfect > vehicles which, with unfailing success, make all of their captive customers happy. > Not so, but I appreciate the sense of irony in your comment. > Everyone knows this, as we witness the apparent success of all those regulated economies overseas > which outshine the U.S. by three (maybe four) orders of magnitude. No one over there envies the > U.S. productivity and standard of living, and they never are moved to leave and come live over here, > to give up the benefits which extreme regulation confers upon them, in place of the (admittedly > mixed) free-market fiasco which operates over here, where all things are uncertain and frighteningly > unpredictable. Simply because people see a better place does not imply it is the *best* place. Selecting the lesser of two evils does not magicaly make one a goodness. It's still an evil. > In fact, many people become so disgusted with the monopolies and disfunctional liberty which exists > here, that they regularly expatriate to go live in places like Sweden, Germany, even Canada, where > they have the peace of mind and assurance that State coercion will provide for their every need - > in a most efficient, timely, prompt, and user-friendly manner. > They never have to worry about who has more or less, who is better or worse, or who knows better > than anyone what is best for everyone. It's all been pre-established and exists incontrovertibly in > their national consumer database. It would be nice if you said something other than "I disagree". It would really be nice if you cold describe specific examples and hypothesis, but that obviously is asking too much. Ah well. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

2 1

Another question about free-markets...
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Milton Friedman won the Nobel price in 1976 in economics. One of the questions he asked was: Do corporate executives, provided they stay within the law, have responsibilities in their business activities other than to make as much money for their stockholders as possible? His answer was 'no', they have no responsibility outside of those two considerations (ie the law, stockholders expectations of profit). Now in a free-market, by definition, there is no law. What then is the responsibility of businesses other than the pure unadulterated pursuit of profit? If this includes lying, denying consumers information, etc. what harm is done, they have fulfilled their responsibility to their shareholders (potentialy quite lucratively) and broken no law. Within this environment it follows that a primary strategy for such executives is the elimination of *all* competition. And since there is no law other than the measure of profit all can be justified. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

6 6

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17 Dec '03

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YOUR CLASSIFIED - AD / 333 NEWSPAPERS !!!!
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17 Dec '03

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1 0

No Subject
by Rod Logic 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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1 0

Capitalism and Monopolies (was RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction)
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate wrote: > Only after the early 1890's when the situation got so bad > they had to do something. Prior to that there was no federal > intervention in railroad operations per se Completely false. Traffic to/from the West coast did not warrant the capital investment in transcontinental railway, so the government make *exclusive* lands grants to specific railroads to extend the railways to the West coast (100M acres between 1863-7) . Those subsidies created the monopolies, the source of coercive power over Western farmers. Protest against this arbitrary power was blamed on the market instead of the government subsidies, and resulted in the Interstate Commerce Act of 1887, and the Sherman Act of 1890. I should have stated government "distortions" instead of "regulation." That includes subsidies. > And every drop of mineral rights in this country is owned > by oil companies or the US government as a result of the > conflicts that took place from the late 1800's to the > early 1900's. The placement (ownership) of these rights, their value, restrictions and enforcement are the result of a free market? No, government intervention. > Actualy the local and state regulators did that back in the > late 50's and early 60's the federals had no hand in it. Did anyone ever state monopolies result from federal regulations? Government distortion/intervention, that can come at any level. Acts of force or coercion can create a monopolistic situation, free trade cannot. > Bullshit math. The interactions are nowhere near as simple as > you state. The big company has the resources to outlast the > smaller company in any industry that can monopolize (an issue > you seem to miss, not all industries can monopolize) So what is the discriminating factor(s) distinguishing industries that can and cannot be monopolized? Don't forget capital markets; a free fluid capital market can and will support a smaller competitor if potential long term profits will support it. I will qualify that we do not have a very free capital market, it currently favors larger businesses. The answer is to deregulate the capital market. Even with our heavily regulated capital markets this works often. > Examples please where a small firm dukes it out (sic) on > equal terms with a larger one... Equality is about freedom of action, not status or result. Amazon vs Barnes & Noble, Yahoo vs NBC, Red Hat vs Microsoft, etc. I see the egalitarian perversion of "equality" polluting arguments against free market capitalism. Equal states and "game" like fairness and handicapping is not ideal, Freedom is ideal. > > In one of those nordic countries, I think Finland, the phone > > system was never made a public enterprise or state regulated > > monopoly, but most other things were. > > Then how does it operate? Who owns the switches and wires? > Either it's a public utility or it's some sort of private > enterprise (though it may by under contract to the government). However buys and installs the switches and wires. There is no artificial barriers such as right-of-way restrictions, exclusive franchise, utilities commission, or nationalization. There are many competing telecom companies, all the way to local loop. > > There is no "natural monopoly" that is not somewhere a > > A 'natural' monoploy, to my mind, is a company that operates > in an industry that can be saturated. That's a perverted definition of 'natural' monopoly. A 'natural' monopoly involves something where all or none must benefit (e.g. military defense) or something based on a severely scarce resource (e.g. real estate to your house). Market saturation is a natural effect of free competition, the number of firms it takes is irrelevant, and competition is not barred by artificial restraint, only profit. If a firm abuses its position competition can and will capitalize on the opportunity. A coercive monopoly is one that is immune to market constraints (supply and demand) -- that requires artificial barriers. > The VCR industry is a great example of a 'natural' monopoly. You must be joking. I could enter the video recording/playback equipment market tomorrow with sufficient capitalization and turn good profits in 5 years. I didn't say VCR because that is terribly myopic, the market demand is the function not the technology. Technology and innovation is a natural destabilizer to monopoly positions. Matt

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate wrote: > Explain further, from your description of the differences there > are no fundamental mentionings or views of intellectual property. > As a matter of fact the specific role of the individual is never > even mentioned in either definition. Intellectual property is fundamentally unenforceable in an anarchic state (you have no govt), at least in the manner we have now, whereas a Laissez Faire state could enforce it (you have limited govt). That says nothing about whether IP should exist in current form or at all, simply that it *could* exist under LF. I don't support the current path IP law is headed, but I support the underlying basis for intellectual property rights, as do most LF advocates. There are many different takes on anarchism, from those that include coercion as a market (and marketable) element to those where it is prohibited, but without the state (rational anarchy). Therefore it is difficult to discriminate the differences other than limited government versus no government. > So people don't have a right to self-defence? I agree > consensual crimes are not crimes. No, you certainly have a right to self-defense. >> "What, then, is law? It is the collective organization of the individual >> right to lawful defense." > Is it? Is it? No. Should it be? Yes. > Or is it simply another sort of coercion to cooperate with the > collective? Yes. "Nowhere has the coercive and parasitic nature of the State been more clearly limned than by the great late nineteenth-century German sociologist, Franz Oppenheimer. Oppenheimer pointed out that there are two and only two mutually exclusive means for man to obtain wealth. One, the method of production and voluntary exchange, the method of the free market, Oppenheimer termed the 'economic means'; the other, the method of robbery by the use of violence, he called the 'political means.' The political means is clearly parasitic, for it requires previous production for the exploiters to confiscate, and it subtracts from rather than adding to the total production in society. Oppenheimer then proceeds to define the State as the 'organization of the political means' -the systematization of the predatory process over a given territorial area." -- Murray Rothbard on Franz Oppenheimer's _Der Staat_ > I'm interesting to see how you reconcile the belief nobody > has a right to use force yet has a right to defend their > life. Abolition of *coercive* force. Defensive force I promote. >>"For what are our faculties but the extension of our >>individuality? And what is property but an extension >>of our faculties?" > By facluty I assume you mean our emotional and psychological > makeup coupled with our sensory record of them. > > I'd say that such issues are not a facet of individualism but > rather a characteristic of life itself. That was a quote from Frederick Bastiat, not me. Faculty is a broad term, your cognitive faculty is physiological, but your rational faculty (your mind) is really the essence of individuality. You are more correct, your individuality is derived from your faculty, your faculty is derived from the nature of man. > No it doesn't. You must first prove that a group of > individuals have some right that as individuals they don't have. Absolutely not and no they don't. What part did you miss? A group is simply a collection of individuals, therefore holds no more rights nor less rights than any single member, nor does any member sacrifice any rights by participating in a group. > For one thing, even in your definition, rights are a > fundamental aspect of birth as an individual. Rights are based on the nature of reality (survival). "In order to sustain its life, every living species has to follow a certain course of action required by its nature. The action required to sustain human life is primarily intellectual: everything man needs has to be discovered by his mind and produced by his effort. Production is the application of reason to the problem of survival... Since knowledge, thinking, and rational action are properties of the individual, since the choice to exercise his rational faculty or not depends on the individual, man's survival requires that those who think be free of the interference of those who don't. Since men are neither omniscient nor infallible, they must be free to agree or disagree, to cooperate or pursue their own independent course, each according to his own rational judgement. Freedom is the fundamental requirement of man's mind... The social recognition of man's rational nature--of the connection between his survival and his use of reason--is the concept of *individual rights*. ..."rights" are a moral principle defining and sanctioning a man's freedom of action in a social context... ...man has to work and produce in order to support his life. He has to support his life by his own effort and by the guidance of his own mind. If he cannot dispose of the product of his effort, he cannot dispose of his effort; if he cannot dispose of his effort, he cannot dispose of his life. Without property rights, no other rights can be practiced." -- Ayn Rand Matt

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17 Dec '03

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RE: Another question about free-markets...
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate wrote: > Now in a free-market, by definition, there is no law. A free market is not the absence of law (that is anarchy), a free market is the absence of government intervention in trade and commerce. That does not mean people and businesses are immune from criminal law, fraud statutes, civil liability, etc. > If this includes lying, denying consumers information, The market addresses information disclosure by favoring vendors that disclose. The legal system addresses intentional misinformation. You are confusing Laissez Faire [free market] Capitalism with Anarcho-Capitalism. Matt

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No Subject
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> At 12:59 PM 10/3/98 -0400, Michael Motyka wrote: > >> There is a desert which is 1000 miles across. There is a camel who can > carry > >> 1000 bananas maximum. The camel eats 1 banana per mile travelled. The camel > >> has a total of 3000 bananas to begin with. What is the maximum number of > >> bananas that the camel can get across to the other side uneaten? > > > >My camels don't understand/can't eat fractional bananas. > > Why are bananas quantized in the presense of camels? Is this > a quantum-computing thing? > Can the camel increase his miles/banana ratio if he dries out the peels and smokes them??

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RE: GPL & commercial software, the critical distinction (fwd)
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"Corruptissima republicae, plurimae leges." -- Tacitus > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Hettinga [mailto:rah@shipwright.com] > Most criminologists will tell that the more corrupt the > jurisdiction, the harder it is to be in compliance with > the law. That way, it's easier for the state's > functionaries to shake you down. > "'If we could just pass a few more laws', we could all be > criminals!"

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