December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Encrypting Pagers is Easy! [Overview, technical tradeoffs, crypto]
by Gold Dot 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Y'all: Since I design pagers for a living, I thought I might comment on encryption in pagers. I've been thinking about encryption in pagers for several years now. RC4 was suggested, and it is probably a good choice for the low end microcontrollers used in pagers. The problem with encryption in pagers is not algorithms, hardware, software or even technology. The problem is getting awareness that there is a problem transmitting pages in the clear. Most people have no clue and I've seen not one request from a customer (meaning large paging companies) for encrypted pagers. A few more well-publisized hacks will help, though. Code space is at a premium in a pager, so widespread awareness of the inherent insecurity of paging protocols will be necessary to get encryption into the products. So, here's a project for any hacker with time on their hands. Input the audio signal from a garden variety scanner into your sound card (just about any variety will do) and decode the signal. It's just 4 level FM. I'd do it myself, but I value my job. :-) Or, if you're lazy and have money, buy yourself a SignalPro and decode two channels simulaneously. Then, scan paging systems in strategic locations and post the juicy tidbits to the 'net. TTFN, Gold Dot golddot(a)nym.alias.net "Gold is money, and nothing else is." -- some dead guy

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index.html
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

CNN logo Navigation Infoseek/Big Yellow Pathfinder/Warner Bros Main banner Price Waterhouse rule DOOR-TO-DOOR SCHOOL SALES DEBATED AFTER BOY'S SLAYING Werner October 1, 1997 Web posted at: 10:02 p.m. EDT (0202 GMT) TOMS RIVER, New Jersey (CNN) -- During the school year, it's a scene that takes place across the United States -- children selling merchandise door-to-door, raising money to benefit their schools or activity groups. But now, the rape and murder of an 11-year-old New Jersey boy who tragically knocked on the wrong door has brought renewed attention to the issue of whether door-to-door sales should be discouraged, or even outlawed. Prosecutors say Edward Werner was attacked and murdered by a 15-year-old boy who opened the door at a house in Toms River. Edward hoped to win a walkie talkie by selling the most merchandise in a contest. Authorities say they know of no other connection between the victim and the teen who has been charged -- that it was a "chance encounter" brought about by Edward's door-to-door selling in what a prosecutor describes as a "very safe" neighborhood. The teen-ager was charged Wednesday with murder and aggravated sexual assault. Authorities did not release his name because he is a juvenile. Raising money for the PTA Schools and non-profit groups pull down an estimated $2 billion a year from product sales, and no state has a law restricting door-to-door fund-raising sales by school children. But in the wake of Edward's slaying, a New Jersey legislator has suggested a ban. Neighborhood Ironically, Edward was raising money for the PTA -- though the national Parent Teacher Association has a policy discouraging students from selling merchandise door-to-door. The sales kits provided to the students warned them to sell only to "family, friends and neighbors with whom you are familiar." The Association of Fund Raisers and Direct Sellers, a trade group representing about half of the estimated 1,500 companies that deal with school and youth groups, has also adopted a policy saying it does not endorse door-to-door sales. Instead, the association suggests that children sell to relatives, friends or neighbors they know, while having parents sell to their co-workers, according to Russell Lemieux, the association's executive director. "That's really the bulk of sales in fund raising," Lemieux said. "The instance of a child going door-to-door is quite rare." However, children are often offered incentives that encourage them to sell as much as they can -- incentives which could have a tendency to encourage, rather than discourage, door-to-door sales. "Our members say incentives ... make a big difference," Lemieux said. Robbery thought the motive When he was last seen, Edward had about $200 on him, and police say he had been showing that money to friends. Robbery is believed to have been a motive in his murder, but no robbery charge has been filed. In the wake of the tragedy Edward's school district has banned door-to-door sales, as green ribbons have begun to appear in his memory. Correspondent Christine Negroni contributed to this report. _________________________________________________________________ Infoseek search ____________________ ____ ____ _________________________________________________________________ rule Message Boards Sound off on our message boards You said it... [INLINE] Price Waterhouse rule To the top © 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms under which this service is provided to you.

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Request for illegal electronic surveillance examples and cases
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

So I'm putting together a special report featuring examples of illegal wiretapping by governments -- to show why we shouldn't trust them with mandatory domestic key escrow. Also illegal electronic surveillance, generally speaking. Especially more recent ones. Maybe non-U.S. examples too. Any suggestions? I'm thinking things like: MLKjr, Mrs. Roosevelt, _Irvine_, _Socialist Workers Party_, Dewey-FBI alliance, mail opening, Emma Goldman, Brownell's blanket microphone surveillance, _Katz_, _Alderman_, CISPES. -Declan ------------------------- Declan McCullagh Time Inc. The Netly News Network Washington Correspondent http://netlynews.com/

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Re: Remailers and ecash
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote: > Bill Stewart wrote: > >Latency is essential to security, though high volume reduces the > >latency that's needed to get a given level of security. > > Latency may be a means to get security in the current remailer design, > but it is a means to the end and not the end itself. This doesn't > mean we shouldn't use latency to get security, but it is undesirable, > like using cinderblocks for construction. The reason I point this out > is that it is important to separate design choices to achieve a goal > from the goal itself. > > If we had a remailer network in which each customer had a constant > bandwidth connection to one or more remailers, you could have zero > latency mail. (Actually, this would be nice to use with those Comsec > phones.) Or use something like anonymous broadcast. Send (fixed sized, constant rate) packets continuously around a fixed set of remailers. Messages may or may not be inserted into these packets, and with encryption it is impossible to tell which node inserted a message (and only until the packet completed the circuit could you tell - inside the machine originating the broadcast). Messages would be resent through the set of remailers, and could be PK encrypted to one of the other nodes. With the broadcast being anonymous, the reciever within the set cannot know who it came from (and theoretically because it is encrypted, no one could know who it is to except the sender, and you can do something to create anonymous target packets). You would still need some mixing for low usage times (or wait for N messages and circulate a control "forward now" message, so that 10 messages come in sequentially and are held, and then at an even interval, 10 messages go out from random nodes.

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http:--www.cnn.com-US-9710-01-shooting.update-
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

CNN logo Navigation Infoseek/Big Yellow Pathfinder/Warner Bros Main banner Visit Regal at Buick.com rule TEEN KILLS 2 AT SCHOOL; MOTHER FOUND DEAD AT HOME Woodham October 1, 1997 Web posted at: 3:38 p.m. EDT (1938 GMT) PEARL, Mississippi (CNN) -- A Mississippi teen-ager slashed his mother's throat Wednesday morning before going on a shooting rampage at his high school that left two students dead and at least six wounded, authorities said. The high school junior, Luke Woodham, was arrested and charged with three counts of murder shortly after the shooting at Pearl High School, about three miles east of the state capital, Jackson. Police Chief Bill Slade choked back tears as he told reporters, "This was a disgruntled girlfriend-boyfriend thing... We talked to the youth. He gave us a statement and his manifesto was that he felt he had been wronged." _______________________________________________________________ A L S O : Message Board: Violence in U.S. Schools _______________________________________________________________ Pearl Mayor Jimmy Foster describes what happened icon 308K/27 sec. AIFF or WAV sound Pearl Police Chief Bill Slade explains what measures will be taken to help traumatized students icon 219K/20 sec. AIFF or WAV sound One student's mother is shocked icon 255KB/19 sec. AIFF or WAV sound A former girlfriend of the suspect was one of two students killed at the school. Slade also said police suspect that the student had killed his mother, Mary T. Woodham, 50, at home earlier Wednesday by slashing her throat. The shooting happened about 8:10 a.m. as buses were arriving at the school. David Williams, a sophomore, said the gunman walked into the commons area inside the front of the school, pulled a rifle from his jacket and opened fire. "He was shooting anybody he could find. He shot at me and hit the staircase," said Mark Wilkerson, a freshman. "I saw fragments going everywhere." Medic offering help One student described the accused youth as reserved. "He was a very quiet person," said Alan Burrow. Four wounded students, ranging in age from 14 to 18, were taken to Rankin Medical Center in Brandon, Mississippi, where one student had already been treated and released. Grieving students gathered in hospital waiting rooms. "The injuries are non-critical gunshot wounds," hospital spokesman Mark Lee said. "In layman's terms they are flesh wounds." Officials shut down the school almost immediately after the shooting and sent all students home. Rhonda Marks, a spokeswoman at River Oaks Hospital, said two students had been brought into the hospital for treatment. Marks did not know if the hospital would receive any more wounded. _________________________________________________________________ Infoseek search ____________________ ____ ____ _________________________________________________________________ rule Message Boards Sound off on our message boards You said it... [INLINE] Visit Regal at Buick.com rule To the top © 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms under which this service is provided to you.

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Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
by Brian B. Riley 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/1/97 4:20 PM, Cynthia Brown (cynthb(a)sonetis.com) passed this wisdom: >I agree wholeheartedly. Uncontrolled guns do not solve problems, >they create them. If most households have at least one firearm, it >makes it that much easier for a criminal to obtain one by stealing >yours while you are at work. > >Canada may be regulated to death according to most libertarians, >but I for one like it that way. I can walk alone and unarmed at >night in Ottawa, Toronto, etc. without fearing for my life. Can a >female resident of Washington or New York say the same? Our schools >do not have metal detectorsat the entrances because they are not >needed. I live in the state of Vermont, where we have more guns per household than most of the states in the US. We are one of the only (if not *the* only) states in the Union that permits concealed carry without requiring a permit (with the not surprising exceptions of USG buildings and schools). Our record high murder year was a few years ago, twenty three murders (that high because we had a woman go crazy at the Eveready plant in Bennington and killed five people in one sitting) in more recent years the figure generally stays under ten per year ...three years ago the figure was five and only one of them was with a gun ... a shotgun, not a handgun. We go where we please with little fear as well; It has to do with a frame of mind, a set of values, not with a lack of availability or opportunity. There is something to be said for living in a place where a man can come right down off the hills during deer season and walk into a liquor store with a shotgun to buy a bottle of hooch without drawing a SWAT team! Try that in NYC or Toronto! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNDMWG8dZgC62U/gIEQLX+gCfZ+GzaNlvSx+xQPszw8cD/1VrDxkAoJ7Y aESM15SJSCwdbYKjDRG2zCIi =69FK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr For PGP Keys <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key> "Give a man a fish and you have fed him for a day, but give him a case of dynamite and soon the village will be showered with mud and seaweed and unidentifiable chunks of fish." -Joe Chew

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Re: Forwarded mail...
by Brian B. Riley 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/1/97 9:03 PM, Jim Choate (ravage(a)ssz.com) passed this wisdom: >Why is the situation more stable if both parties are armed? If I >were confronted by a armed burglar and we were facing off I would >pull the trigger as soon as I got a lock. If their gun wasn't in a >ready position Iwould warn them and if they so much as flinched I'd >drop them. If they wereunarmed I might beat them senseless with the >gun but I would not shoot themunless they made a motion to rush me, >then I would go for a non-lethal shotunless the distance was less >than a dozen feet (rushing distance) or so >in ... nothing personal, but why is it people keep deluding themselves with the idea that they can shoot to wound. You cannot know what a shot will do ... if you shoot someone the odds are pretty high that you will kill him or seriously injure. You cannot count on 'non-lethally' wounding anyone. Leg shots have a very high incidence of hitting bone and deflecting up into the torso and really raising havoc. A shot to the thigh could easily hit the femoral artery and a total bleedout .... if you are going to shoot assume your are going to kill, if the guys lives, then you get to sleep a little easier that night and later. I hear so much talk about killing like its something really easy to do ... it isn't ... unfortunately it gets easier each time, and the sleeping gets tougher ... the only consolation to the bad dreams is that it means you haven't lost your humanity, yet! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNDMc3sdZgC62U/gIEQKPVACgnbr0UQGw0Lx8j7tJhOii6bVWB/MAnjM6 euuGEBAmFLhxWsULQLNTOFSs =LFzV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr For PGP Keys <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key> "...Those of you who turned your swords into plowshares will soon find yourselves under the yokes of those of us who kept our swords..." -- author unknown

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Remailers and ecash
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Given: We want more (reliable) remailers But someone has to pay for them Conjecture: New remailers can be financed by charging the users a fee per message to use the remailers. If a remailer charges a fee, the number of users will be reduced to those who are willing to pay the fee. When the number of users is reduced, the potential for traffic analysis is increased, which reduces the value of the remailer. If the value of the remailer is reduced, it will not be worth the cost to many users, and those users will seek a less expensive, higher traffic remailer. Thus, the commercial remailer is forced to lower its prices until it is unprofitable. Conclusion: Pay-per-message commecial remailers are not economically viable. Hence we need a new economic model to finance remailers. Several have been proposed: - Advertiser supported - Pay a flat fee per month for remailer access - Everyone a remailer. Remailers only accept messages from other remailers. To use remailers you must run a remailer. - Get companies to run remailers on their firewalls to reduce traffic analysis by competitors/spies - Pay for access to an anonymous message pool - Sell a spam filtering service to fund remailers - Sell a spamming service to fund remailers - Sell cpu cycles in exchange for remailer access - Charge people for extra services, such as low-latency - Pay for a nym account, nymserver subsidizes remailers - Have the money launderers subsidize the remailers - Somehow get all those Mac users to pay - Offer $50 to the first person to set up a remailer, as Monty Cantsin did - Fund social programs for universal remailer access and universal health care like Cynthia wants

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Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd) > Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 23:56:19 -0400 > From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr(a)together.net> > >And why does this by any security when it's the header info and > >contents that Mallet looks at, not the frequency. The only thing > >such approaches do is impliment security by obscurity, and that > >ain't security. > > What header info?, its all messages to the remailer with nondescript > info .. from that point the latency and mix takes over. The meaningful > message looks no different from the 'cover' traffic. Mallet will be following the cover traffic, since it is cover there will be no correllation uncovered between input and output traffic because the output traffic header info will either be a small class of destinations used over and over or else it will be chosen randomly using something like a spider on webpages or a usenet newsgroup crawler. Just send the bogus packets to random addresses, talk about spam with a bite... <hint: the LEA's would then instigate an investigation of the randomly selected target, depleting their resources, this might buy you 2-3 days if you got two halves of a clue to rub together> <speculation: anything short of several thousand entries in the bogus destinations will be trivial to track> <obvious: once a bogus address is used and known by the LEA's it will be worthless to send any further packets there> <obvious: all this traffic analysis will be done by computers with very nice databases so it might take one or two agents to review the full traffic set for just about any time frame under review> <speculation: given a determined and well equiped Mallet it should take no more than a week to 10 days to resolve the analysis if the destination party is a small set, say <= dozen, using todays remailers and traffic levels. Previously it was mentioned that one remailer handled about 4300 pieces a day, something Oracle or Sybase wouldn't have a problem with> <speculation: currently remailers are not seriously bothered by the BIG Big Brother's because it is not worth validating the paranoids out there that they are being watched> For the sender to chain from remailer to remailer to destination the destination has to be in the header info somewhere. Now in the most secure system each packet header will only contain the address of the next hop. When the next site gets it the packet contents are de-crypted (otherwise reading the chaining info is trivial) and the contents are uncovered to reveal another packet with the next hop header and another encrypted block. And on and on we go. <Question: Are there any remailer sets that impliment the encrypted nested packet system?> <speculation: an encrypted chain could be made stronger if the next hop header depended on which key was used to decode it. In other words, remailer A's key will produce one next hop address while remailer B's key will send it elsewhere. This is a subset of the different plaintext - same cyphertext problem - a hard problem as I understand it. Find two distinct texts that encrypt with different keys to the same cyphertext> Now if I were tasked with traffic analysis of this sort I would look at each incoming header and each outgoing header. I would look for some sort of correlation (ie some percentage of the time when I see this source address I see this destination address within some period) over time between the steps in the chain. Realisticaly it would take at least a dozen or so transmissions using the same remailer chain before a clear pattern would emerge. In general there are two types of classes in traffic analysis. The first is monitoring of a specific entity involved in the transfer, usualy source or destination. The second is passive traffic monitoring where I simply go from remailer to remailer and find statistical correlation between the various packets in the hope that somewhere somewhen I would come across something of use. <observation: without latency being added simply shuffling the messages will not significantly hamper the analysis. To be most effective the latencies should be randomly chosen. This implies that for best security the content of the traffic should not be greatly time sensitive. It furher implies that such traffic should be over a significant range, at least an order of magnitude say> <suggestion: I learned of the basics of traffic analysis from following the study of dinosaur teeth and trying to determine which type they were. Different dinosaurs leave distinctive but different types of scratches on their teeth. By applying statistics to the measurements it becomes possible to assign them to specific types> The first type is the most commen currently but with the various requests by the FBI and other LEA's it is becoming clear they want to get into the second class of traffic analysis in a big way. Guess they are finding it harder and harder to get the big-wigs like the drug cartels because they use a higher degree of technology than the LEA's do, they're simply out-classed. With the second class they could catch a email (for example) from some end user buying a couple of quarters of pot and then chase that chain in reverse. Without the passive second class monitoring they would have never gotten that lead in the first place. Now consider the LEA's think nothing of monitoring a suspect for years if required. I know of one case where the DEA spent 2 years tracking a 'kingpin' for 45 tons of herb. They even brought in specialist from the NSA and military to do covert monitoring for the over-seas participants, including traffic analysis of their communications. <observation: Blackhawks have a pretty nifty electronics system, watching downtown Bagdad via a sat link while flying along playing with Internet email and using your FLIR to not hit the cables between the poles> If they ain't LEA's then a whole new set of options become available. Also consider, if they aren't LEA's then they are probably doing a class one traffic analysis which is only a matter of time to resolve. Considering the current number of anonymous remailers it would not surprise me if the CIA/NSA/Massad/MI5/etc. are not currently monitoring them all. It is a given that countries like Iraq, Singapore, China, etc. are currently doing about all they can to monitor the remailers because they are known to be used by 'terrorist' organizations. It seems to me that many people have an inherent (and unrecognized) assumption that Mallet will have access only to a single remailer and won't bother actualy tracing the traffic. A bad assumption. It is also worth remembering, the government as a whole is quite slow but there are some quite capable individuals. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 06:35:55 +0200 (MET DST) > Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd) > From: nobody(a)REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) > The question is will people pay money for this. Nobody gives a damn if you > think it's useful or not. Shure they do because one of the things I would love to do is run a commercial anon remailer. If I as a businessman motivated to get into it can't justify it how in the world can somebody with less technical experience justify it? How would you justify it to your bank for a $10k loan? I suspect that if I can find a way to overcome my anal retentive penny pinching then it will sell others as well. > The customer is always right, and all that. You obviously have never done business with me. I've turned more than one customer away because they were either stupid or wanted something that was completely out of line. I provide my customers a specific set of services at specific fees with specific results, period. If they don't like the way their baby looks that is their problem, I just deliver 'em. I do this out of love, not a need to feed. <trivia: Bill G. once said that the computer industry was the only industry that ate its children> > Obviously, some people had a reason to take the time to write those thousands > of posts, the question is will they pay the remailers to post them. Depends on their motivation...a question we all seem to be grappling with. If it's possible I am shure that one of the thousands of posts that we generate on this issue will be the trigger. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: Forwarded mail... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: Forwarded mail... > Date: Thu, 2 Oct 97 00:09:24 -0400 > From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr(a)together.net> > ... nothing personal, but why is it people keep deluding themselves > with the idea that they can shoot to wound. You cannot know what a > shot will do Remember: A gun is like a finger, just point it at what you want to hit. I have met hundreds of great shots in my life, there are many people for whom this sort of behaviour would not be delusional. My grandfather (who you'll hear more about in a minute) used to delight us as small kids by lighting matches stuck in wood fence posts with a .22 pistol from about 50 yds. My cousin from Louisiana likes to shoot squirrels (if you can call it that) by passing the bullet just in front of their nose, causes lung hemorraghes and they just fall off the limb. Me, I always miss or blow their teeny little head off, it's apparently a game of 1/4 inches. I work with an ex-gomer (ie USMC) pilot who is quite phenomenal with his .357 Desert Eagle, his groupings are just about an inch at 25 yds. I have 20/10 eyesight (in one eye now, the L. is blind) and I've been shooting guns since I was 6 years old. By the time I was 12 I was killing Nutria in Louisiana's swamps every summer for bounty with a single shot of .22 from 100+ yds. I once got a nice heart shot on a deer at 400 yds. over iron sites with a .308. I hit what I aim at with a pistol or rifle assuming I have fired it a few times (which if I own the gun is a given). The first thing I do is range a weapon when I buy it. It's also why I practice shooting in groups of 3. Better chance of hitting, and hitting something important. Being shot at doesn't bother me, been there done that several times now, so I don't think that will be much of a factor. I agree a snap shot is inaccurate but if I have time to get the gun and get to my bedroom door nobody is going to get a chance for a snap shot. Hell, if I had a reasonable idea where they were I'd shoot their wormy ass through the wall. I seriously doubt anyone can get to my bedroom without me being warned (my burglar alarm isn't electronic). <hint: if your walls are white and you're faced with a burglar cover yourself with a white sheet (assuming the lights are off and only ambient is available) and stay below waist level moving no more than about 1 ft. at a time and shooting upward. Keep both elbows tucked in and hold the gun in a 2-hand grip, use you ears not your eyes> >... if you shoot someone the odds are pretty high that > you will kill him or seriously injure. If you break into my house at 1AM this is a given. I'll either shoot you or beat you to death with a skillet. If you don't want to die don't break into my house. It's the Golden Rule. There is absolute NOTHING that justifies breaking into my house at any time let alone in the middle of the night. It's called 'cause and effect' unfortunately most folks now a-days just don't seem to have caught the clue. There is a saying that my grandfather tought me (he was a medic in WWI because he was a contientous (sp?) objecter): If you pull a gun on somebody shoot, and shoot to kill. If you can't bring yourself to kill then don't use a gun. > You cannot count on > 'non-lethally' wounding anyone. Who the hell wants to non-lethaly wound a burglar, I'm betting on them flinching when I start yelling at them... > Leg shots have a very high incidence > of hitting bone and deflecting up into the torso and really raising > havoc. A shot to the thigh could easily hit the femoral artery and a > total bleedout Absolutely great reasons to shoot the asshole there. Look, when a person breaks into your house, robs you, rapes you, or whatever they are basicly saying "I am going it on my own, I apply no rules or recognition of civilization. Your life means nothing to me because I am willing to trade it for a few measly bucks". It is silly to try to deal with such people reasonably, if they were reasonable they wouldn't be there in the first place (they'd be home protecting their own possessions). They are a clear and present danger with long-term intent. Save your life and their next victim or your tax dollars to put them in jail and train them to be better criminals, do everyone a favor kill them now. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: Request for illegal electronic surveillance examples and cases
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Declan wrote: >So I'm putting together a special report featuring examples of illegal >wiretapping by governments -- to show why we shouldn't trust them with >mandatory domestic key escrow. Also illegal electronic surveillance, >generally speaking. Especially more recent ones. Maybe non-U.S. examples >too. There are a number of US cases in the just published "Secrets: The CIA's War at Home," by Angus Mackenzie. What is worth exploring to supplement the perhaps too facile gov-bash is the burgeoning private industry of illegal electronic surveillance, staffed with mostly ex-gov folks (and those not deft enough to get a global Cold War sinecure) who are not always as scrupulous as the government. These operations are growing worldwide as governments down-size, up-size and sneaky-rig their NatSec and LE programs, often most slyly by privatizing them behind false fronts. Indeed, the bigger story may be the ways illegal electronic snooping is being hidden behind "legal" operations by both government and industry, often working in concert to camouflage the bastardly deeds by pointing fingers at each other to justify higher budgets and higher fees and more restrictions on free expression. Get Stewart Baker looped and talkative. Then John Deutch, William Perry, and on and on. The media and DC public interest groups are not outside this long-running covert loop of mutual back-scratchers. Read "Secrets." Trace for example where the heads and legal counsels of military, spy and law enforcement agencies go in private industry, and the affiliations they form in commerce and non-profit orgs, beginning with SAIC, say, and the Council on Foreign Relations, the lobby-law firms and schools, but do not stop with the obvious, easy to find. Get Stewart Baker looped and talkative. Then John Deutch, William Perry, ex-legislators, and on and on. Be prepared to have your not-so-secure comm systems hacked by the New Terrorists as dirty secrets are threatened. Read "Secrets:" some of the characters in the crypto debate are mentioned in earlier disguises and, in a few case, where they show now.

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Stop Dreaming & Start Making Money!
by 72384400＠13117.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Are you interested in making an extra $10,000, $50,000, or $100,000 a month? YES! $100,000 a month. If you believe that someday you'll get that big break, get ready because THIS IS IT! Just imagine, no more living from paycheck to paycheck. Become FINANCIALLY INDEPENDENT. Buy your dream home. Purchase that sports car in cash. Never again worry about living in debt. "I currently make $1,350 to $1,800 a day doing this part-time. One week after I started, the checks showed up in my mailbox. I can't believe it!" - Lynette from Glendale, CA. I'm sure you've seen couples on TV, sitting on a couch, holding each other's hand & claiming to make this sort of MONEY. If all these people were lying, don't you think you would have heard about it from the Attorney General or Hard Copy? STOP thinking that no one can possibly make this kind of money. WE ARE!! "I was probably the most skeptical person out there, until I saw how much my brother-in-law was making. Then I HAD to try it. The first day, I got checks that totaled $5,693. Yesterday I made $4,374." - Michael from Everette, WA $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Are you ready to change your life forever? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ MAKE HUGE PROFITS IN THE INFORMATION AGE Selling information is one of the FASTEST and EASIEST ways to get into the mail order business. Ordinary people just like you and me are doing this and smiling all the way to the bank. It is only in this amazing business can you start out with practically NO CAPITAL and with literally NO LIMIT to your profits. I bet you know someone who would PAY YOU $5-$15 to know: HOW TO GET $1,000,000 WORTH OF LIFE INSURANCE WITH NO CASH! HOW TO STOP PAYING PROPERTY TAXES ON YOUR HOME WIPE OUT DEBTS WITHOUT BANKRUPTCY INSIDER SECRETS TO PERSONAL TAX SHELTERS HOW TO REDUCE YOUR GROCERY BILLS BY 50% TOP 10 WAYS TO MAKE MONEY ON THE INTERNET All you have to do is buy our CD-ROM which contain over 650+ how to money making reports, reprint on diskettes or paper & SELL, SELL, SELL. CD-ROM comes with Unlimited Reprint & Resell license. You can sell the reports individually or in sets through classified ads, personal contacts, flyers, or on the Net. Sell them HOWEVER you want and for as MUCH as you want. YOU KEEP ALL THE PROFIT. HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE YOU $$$$$ Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and you send out only 2,000 email ads a day. (You obviously already have an internet connection so e-mail advertising is FREE.) Your email would read: SPECIAL REPORT "Live in a $100,000 Home without ANY Money" Send $10 & self- addressed stamped envelope to: YOUR NAME YOUR ADDRESS YOUR CITY AND STATE Let's also say that the mailing only receives a tiny response rate of not 5% , not 1% but 0.5%. That comes out to 10 orders a day X $10.00 per order. That's $100 in additional income a day for 5 minutes of work. Imagine, that comes out to an additional $36,500 a year. Can you use an extra $36,500 a year for 5 minutes of work? BUT what would happen if you sent out 100,000 emails? At the smaller response rate of 0.35% , YOU WILL EARN $105,000.00 OF SPENDABLE CASH IN JUST ONE MONTH! Note: Some programs out there send email at 250,000 - 330,000 emails an HOUR with a 28.8 modem. Note: Currently there are over 90 million email accounts users & predicted to be 500 million by the year 2000 When you order from us, you get: *Our BEST-SELLING 650+ money making reports on CD-ROM. *Step-by-step proven instructions on how you can start a huge business selling information & become financially successful. *The best methods for bulk e-mailing and obtaining e-mail lists. Other money making programs sound great, they say place tiny classified ads. They forget to tell you that, you have to WRITE A BOOK. With our CD-ROM, you can begin selling, TODAY! E-Z ORDER FORM : Please print out this form and fill in the blanks legibly to send along with payment. I WOULD LIKE TO ORDER THE FOLLOWING: QTY TITLE _______ CD-ROM (650+ Reports with Full Reprint Rights) Advertised before for $99.00 NOW *ONLY $59.00* Name ____________________________________________________ Street Address ____________________________________________ City, State, Zip_____________________________________________ Phone Number_____________________________________________ Email Address_____________________________________________ Payment method ____ credit card ____ check ____ money order Account Number _____________________________________ Expiration Date ________________ Name on Card _______________________________________ Signature ___________________________________________ ORDER AMOUNT __________________________ + $4.00 shipping/handling = _______________ TOTAL Send payment along with this completed form to: Micro Info Publishing 2107 W. Commonwealth Ave. #264 Alhambra, CA 91803 Comes with a 30 DAY MONEY BACK GUARANTEE

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Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Alex Le Heux wrote: >>>You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To >>>kill. Just like any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be >>>used at some point. >> >>Although guns are obviously designed for killing things, this does >>not mean that they will be used. This can be seen from the >>statistics. There are far fewer murders than there are guns. >>Almost all of them are never used for killing someone. > >You can't deny that the more guns there are available, the more >people will get shot. Oh yes, I can. In fact, I believe the opposite is the case. The statistics bear this out. But, your claim was that a weapon will eventually be used to kill somebody. I guess it's clear at this point that this was wildly inaccurate. >There may be some people that are capable of owning a gun and using >it wisely (ie. not), but I don't believe that this is a significant >fraction of any population. You should come to the United States and spend some time around the shooting community. The people are real pleasant, real easy to get along with, and real careful with their weapons. >>You are also not considering the case where one person has a gun and >>another does not. The situation is more stable if both people are >>armed. (And don't claim you are talking about disarming a whole >>society. You aren't, just part of it.) > >Urgl? The situation only becomes more explosive if both sides are >armed. That can occur, but in general nobody likes to be shot. Even if you are going to shoot your opponent regardless, if he has a gun you move more cautiously. >Look at the arms race, which is now, thank god, over. I am amazed at >the amount of restraint both sides displayed during that time, >although it's been really close a few times. What would have happened if the Russians didn't develop nuclear weapons? I think they would have been nuked sooner or later, don't you? And, we aren't talking about an arms race, here. We are talking about whether citizens are allowed to own a few rifles. >It's really simple: If there are no guns, no one will get shot. You will find this difficult to achieve, however. >I _am_ talking about disarming a population. I don't know which 'it' >I'm not part of, but I am definately not part of the 'it' that >promotes death by gunshot. You are not talking about disarming the police and the military are you? Just as I thought: you only want to disarm the civilians. That's not such a great idea, judging by history. >>>So making sure there are lots of guns around only serves to make a >>>lot of people very dead. This is a Bad Thing. >> >>Depends who they are. Bet the Dutch resistance made good use of >>their weaponry, eh? > >Even if they did, dead people are still a Bad Thing. We had no >quarrel with the soldiers the resistance killed. Neither did most of >them had any quarrel with us. Just like the US troopers in Vietnam or >some other place. Are you arguing that the Dutch resistance should not have resisted? I believe they did the right thing, myself. I do not believe it was a Bad Thing. I believe it was a Good Thing. I believe they did not kill enough people. >>Be aware that the gun control lobby has often used misleading >>statistics. For instance, you will hear a lot about "handgun >>deaths". It turns out that most of these are suicides. While >>undesirable, most people perceive a difference between somebody >>killing themselves and a nutcase doing his thing at a school. > >I am not the gun control lobby,... No, but it appeared that you may have been misled by them. >I am a citizen in a mostly gun-free society, and glad of it. People >getting shot here, be it robbery, suicide, police violence or self >defence is a rare occurence. Police violence is caused by gun ownership? I doubt this very much. >Over her, drive-by shootings are something from fairy tales. Oddly enough, this is mostly true here as well. It is unclear what is magical about the words "drive by shooting." I believe this phrase lacks real content and is simply a trigger for hysteria. The implication is that people are randomly firing on people in the streets. While this may occur once in a great while, it is extremely uncommon. Usually people kill for a reason. Usually they are trying to kill their enemies. In the U.S., this is often related to the black market. Whether somebody kills their enemy from a car or not is irrelevant. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNDP3UZaWtjSmRH/5AQEHIQf/RaA4NODawPxLEEI5mMGPnMG/+7ASceoL p6i2oM8c0w2Qu7yx7FfK5uC0wtRpyQFZXFaPpZ7AoMUYumAXCnnVLdksKaxMdsCP 0Dv0I1Bg5lh+Ko5XEyCHBl472MQH5P7rg6sWil3+X6D4KPEh6IhfQ/WAdczAOhGG h1pDDTHOiRYO52x4Lb5vyH58OtyzxAqoBUH2YD6ReVcdYbgUXcXD54UGTbzsPbzw 5Rlx/M5gCMXOpKoISZnsCPhZyPrw8a/kG3VPdbmJC4XbE4evohCeA+CDZzy2HTDb x3S2iUnmPEw6Cg4KhXeKfyznIXNgLWLDUu5tOpc9qtuCNrWeBc1DzA== =/9qs -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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InfoWar 27 / TEXT
by The Same Guy 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The True Story of the InterNet Part III InfoWar Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain by TruthMonger <tm(a)dev.null> Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- InfoWar Table of Contents * Anarchist Post of the Century Alex Le Clue ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anarchist Post of the Century ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Mr. Policeman is Your Friend From: Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> To: cypherpunks(a)cyberpass.net >Electronic Frontier Canada's David Jones (djones(a)insight.dcss.McMaster.CA) >posted the following to the EFC mailing list: >2. If cops can read E-mail, so can the bad guys > http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/gazette.24sep97.html Let's not forget that cops are often the bad guys. And I don't mean this in a macho, off-the-pigs way. I mean that throughout history the "cops" are those who have enforced the laws and whims of tyrants, who have arrested and tortured and executed dissidents and nonconformists of all flavors, and who were the "King's men" in the times of the Founders. Even in more recent decades in the U.S., don't forget it was "cops" who harassed civil rights workers, who broke up perfectly legal strikes, who arrested and imprisoned Eugene Debs for speaking out against the draft in particular and a foolish war, WW 1, in general, and so on. One need only look to J. Edgar Hoover and his police state measures. (In fact, the very term "police state" tells us all we need to know about whether or not "Mr. Policeman is Your Friend" is always, or even most of the time, true.) And with full awareness that I am invoking Godwin's Law, the "cops" in Europe in the 1933-45 period were the enforcers of Hitler's policies. Here's a list of some folks throughout history and in various regimes who would likely have reason not to want to escrow their keys with the local police: Jews, Catholics, Protestants, atheists, heretics, schismatics, heathens, poets, authors, Scharansky, Solzhenitsyn, refuseniks, Chinese dissidents, students in front of tanks, Branch Davidians, Scientologists, Jesus, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, African National Congress, UNITA, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, colonial rebels, patriots, Tories, Basque separatists, Algerian separatists, secessionists, abolitionists, John Brown, draft opponents, communists, capitalists, imperialist lackeys, anarchists, Charlie Chaplin, Galileo, Joan of Arc,, Martin Luther, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, civil rights workers, Margaret Sanger, birth control activists, abortionists, anti-abortionists, Michael Miliken, Robert Vesco, Marc Rich, Nixon's Enemies, Hoover's enemies, Clinton's enemies, Republicans, Democrats, anarchists, labor organizers, pornographers, readers of "Playboy," viewers of images of women whose faces are uncovered, Amateur Action, Jock Sturges, violators of the CDA, alt.fan.karla-homulka readers, Internet Casino customers, Scientologists, Rosicrucians, royalists, Jacobeans, Hemlock Society activists, Jimmy Hoffa, John L. Lewis, Cesar Chavez, opponents of United Fruit, land reformers, Simon Bolivar, Robin Hood, Dennis Banks, American Indian Movement, Jack Anderson, Daniel Ellesberg, peace activists, Father Berrigan, Mormons, Joseph Smith, missionaries, Greenpeace, Animal Liberation Front, gypsies, diplomats, UN ambassadors, Randy Weaver, David Koresh, Ayatollah Khomeini, John Gotti, Papists, Ulstermen, IRA, Shining Path, militia members, tax protesters, Hindus, Sikhs, Lech Walesa, Polish labor movement, freedom fighters, revolutionaries, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, and "suspects" --Tim May The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^2,976,221 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alex Le Clue ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Axle Le Clue shook his head in disbelief, as he read the CypherPunks list post that had been sent by his clueless Doppelganger, Alex Le Heux. Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto" From: alexlh(a)xs4all.nl (Alex Le Heux) To: cypherpunks(a)cyberpass.net Bullshit. People in the US rarely use their weapons against oppressive governments or political turbulence. Most guns that are used against another person there are used to commit crime or to defend against those armed criminals. Anonymous <anon(a)anon.efga.org> wrote: >Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their >occupation. While there certainly were many courageous Dutch people >who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least), and >there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance, >there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well. Not >only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch >informers, but there were even Dutch SS units. You have a nerve. You, coming from a country where people are still regularly killed in the name of racism, tell me this?! Alex -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNDNpTNuYAh4dUSo/EQK3bwCeKJv4AW0kOwjSRitLi7HDa7KEaW8AoN4F OwK1wOG19pazc93T1twP1Evp =FsmU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Axle Le Clue had been following this thread, in which a large number of CypherPunks had contributed their perspective, to little effect, for the most part. Alex Le H[clu]e[less]ux, despite a variety of sensible, well-reasoned posts by a number of different American CypherPunks, seemed to remain, in his own mind, a world-class expert on a country in which he did not reside. What was especially sad, was that the poor, dumb fucker wasn't even a spook. Axle Le Clue decided that, since the rather civil posts by the other list members were not helping his clueless twin from across the sea to come half-way to his senses, that he would step into his VerityMonger suit and bring the boy up to speed on what an ignorant asshole he was making of himself. It was the least he could do for an evil twin Subject: When you realize that you're too stupid to live, you can borrow my gun. From: Axellc(a)xsDRUGS4all.hi (Axle Le Clue) To: cypherpunks(a)Algebra.COM Alex, Did you know that all Europeans are exactly 5' 7" tall, have light brown hair and limp slightly when they walk? I know this because I watch TV and that makes me a goddamn fucking expert on you low-life foreigners who aren't like us, over here. If you disagree with my view of your region of the world, then why don't you get your head out of your fucking ass so that you have an outside chance of expressing an opinion or viewpoint that you didn't suck out of the cocks of the mass media when it comes to our region of the world. I saw a news story on TV the other day about two senior citizens who drew down on a would-be robber in a restaurant, or some such, using their illegal guns, which they carried for their own protection. Yep, I saw it in the news once. Today some kid slashed his mater's throat, and then went to school and whacked out a couple of his classmates with a rifle. I have seen this every half-fucking-hour since it happened, and will no doubt be shown all of the messy details another few hundred times before the mass media who seem to be in charge of spoon-feeding people like yourself their world-view is done creating your reality for you. You want nerve, pal? I've got the fucking nerve to suggest that you petition your fucking government to take in a few million US government created nigger crack-heads, so that your country can teach our citizens how to treat them with love and respect. To tell the truth, I'd rather you took the white-bread junkies, because my nigger drug addict acquaintances have treated me much better than my honkey junkie pals. Correct me if I'm wrong (but I never am), but it seems to me that Europe is not even interested in saving our Black-African Americans from the horrible abuse they suffer as a result of our country's racism. Come and get 'emsee if they'll go. The US has racial problems because we have different races. We also have a whole shitload of racial harmony. All over the world, there are a variety of countries engaged in mass murder and genocide, at any given point in time. You try coming to the US and slaughtering even a few thousand of any particular race, religion, or ethnic group, and you won't even be able to take a wild guess at the number of people of various races, religions and ethnic groups that will be on your ass like shit on stink. You hypocritical piece of shit--having the fucking audacity to conceitedly brag about how the people of Europe have "put the crap of WWII behind us" and suggest that it is something that we "haven't managed to do." Want the cold, hard facts of life, Bubba? You didn't put WWII 'behind' you. We did! Gun-loving Americans conquered your continent and gave you your countries back instead of enslaving you, like every other winner in history has done. Some of us discriminate against Jews. Do you know why? Because we HAVE some! We were giving them refuge while Europe was massacring them by the millions. Now you have the balls to say we're not all treating them right all of the time. Buy a fucking clue! NEWS FLASH!!! Fascism hadn't died, it has just gone underground and crept into every facet of life through the corporate and government power mongers. The government and the mass media are working the citizens like dumb fish on a hook, who are still trying to swallow the worm. There is a New World Order on the way, and it isn't going to be any prettier than the last time it was tried. You can dismiss as paranoid ranters and ravers, those who decry the increasing loss of our freedom and privacy, but you would be better served to listen and learn from them, rather than criticize their determination to defend their liberty, to the death, if necessary. Why? Because these are the same people who defended Europe's liberty, to the death. The danger is not the freedom lovers who are armed and declaring the line they will not let others step over, in compromising their rights and freedoms. The danger is the sheeple who believe the government and their media shills when they say that the Thought Police only want Austria. The Privacy Police only want the Jews. The danger is the sheeple who buy the government lie that they need to deny us our rights and freedoms to solve the problems that they, themselves, have created. If you can't see this clearly, then there is nothing that I or any of the other CypherPunks can say to change your perception of the source of creeping fascism that is leading to yet another attempt to create a New World Order. I love the American people. I despise the secret American government. I feel the same about many other countries I have lived in or visited. I do not want to see your children, or mine, fighting in the future over what color to paint their prison cells, instead of fighting to escape, and be free. When the cattle cars stop at the end of the line, the people you find there are not nearly as civil and reasonable as the ones who checked your identity cards at the beginning of the trip, to make sure that you were properly processed according to your rights under the law. I think you are an idiot to believe that the threat of weapons in the hands of the citizens is a greater threat than weapons only in the hands of the rich and powerful. However, if Europe is conquered by the forces of evil, once again, I am sure that myself and many other Americans will do what we can to come pull your ass out of the fire. It may take a little longer, this time, though, since we may have to kick our own fascist government's ass before we come kick the shit out of your dictators. No need to thank usit's just the way Americans are. VerityMonger "If you want to conquer the world, you're going to have to come through me." ("Do you feel lucky, Hitler? Welldo you?) Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger <theSameGuy(a)theSamePlace.Old>" "You can't get there from here." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs" "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet') Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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counter-intuitive -- spam is good for you. anonymous assholes are your friend
by Zooko Journeyman 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I just got through reading another hilarious post from Anonymous, and I realized that instead of filtering anonymous posts _out_ of my reading list like I used to, I've gradually started filtering them _in_. I was thinking about why, and it illustrates a counter- intuitive hypothesis that's been germinating in my head for a few days/months/years. I'll call it "Zooko's Law of Evolutionary, Counter-Intuitive, Painful Serendipity": In an evolving ecosystem, things which appear to do harm often result in benefit. For example, if you consider having lots of healthy, happy bunnies to be a benefit, you might consider an influx of voracious wolves to be bad news. But in many cases the selective pressure exerted by the wolf population will result in stronger bunny genes, healthier bunnies, more bunny babies and cetera. In the case that the wolves leave again, or some other aspect of the environment changes (winter comes, etc.) then the population of passive grass-nibbling bunnies will turn out to be disappointingly fragile compared to the population of well-exercised wolf-fleeing bunnies. Now you might complain that I am not playing fair by tossing in these hypothetical environment changes late in the game. If we are evaluating _just_ the influx of wolves, and not some possible developments such as the wolves passing on, winter coming and so forth, then "obviously" the bunnies were better off without wolves. But perhaps that's just the point. In an evolving ecosystem, you _can't_ measure success without considering the likelihood of continual change. You might also object that I am sneaking in some unfounded Platonic concept of "bunny goodness" which only holds in certain contexts. I.e. maybe the environment will change in a way that penalizes bunnies with sinewy muscles and fast hearts and rewards big fat stupid bunnies who only think of the next nibble. Okay. Maybe I am. But my intuition tells me that this isn't some human-prejudice Platonic Ideal slipping in, but that in fact competition _does_ usually make the competitors better suited for all sorts of likely environmental changes. Now why do the cpunks care? Because I think the invasion of flaming, spamming Vulisses and "Graham-John Buellers" was good for the cpunks list. It drives away people with too little intelligence, stomache-strength, technical know-how or egostic attitude manage their own list input without depending on group dynamics to manage it for them. Okay, so like all "natural" selections, it takes out a few of the good guys too. I still miss Perry Metzger's involvement, but if we had to lose Perry in order to lose a few dozen clueless loudmouths, then so be it. Anyway, I consider it a Bad Thing that anonymous remailers are so difficult to learn and use. I would approve if point-n- click remailers and remailer clients were widely distributed. But in another application of Zooko's Law of Evolutionary Serendipity, the fact that remailers are hard to use means that the people who use them are smarter than average. So maybe _that's_ why I've found it rewarding to select _for_ anonymous posts instead of against in recent times. And why I toy with the notion of fomenting the kind of infowar "war games" that Phill Hallam-Baker hates. Damn, I wish Daniel Dennett were reading this list. Regards, Zooko Journeyman P.S. Just to tie up one loose end-- you might notice that I counted the flame-invasion as a goodness because it drove off "clueless loudmouths". But what's the difference between a "Graham-John Buellers" and a normal crypto-groupie? Is this a double-standard? Not at all. The clueless loudmouths that I am glad to be rid of are an insidious sort, like William H. Geiger III, Paul Bradley, and rest-his-soul Jim Bell who are on-topic and sane enough to attract attention from the real thinkers, but who are prolific and mediocre enough to pull down the over-all quality of discourse. Apologies to the named people for hurting your feelings. It's nothing personal, but I have to call 'em like I see 'em. Cut down the volume of your output to just the very best of your articles, and maybe I'll stop filtering you out.

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Re: Stronghold
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes: > > Anonymous <anon(a)anon.efga.org> writes: > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM writes: > > Those who are newcomers to the list should know that Vulis has never > > presented any evidence substantiating his vague claims that Stronghold > > is insecure or has backdoors (or whatever the claims were). Vulis is > > conducting a personal vendetta against one of C2Net's staff members and > > anyone who happened to be or become associated with him. > Nor do I have to present any evidence. You misordered this: it should say "Nor do I have any evidence to present." > I'm not the one selling StrongHold. No, you're the one trying to torpedo its sales to get back at certain individuals for some perceived slight. > I have received several threatening communications from C2Net's lawyers, > which were discussed at length on this list. To avoid unpleasant disputes > I agreed not to disseminate my opinions about StrongHold. Amazingly, C2Net doesn't like to see its product publicly slandered by reptiles like Vulis. If Vulis' opinion were based on anything other than personal ill will - ie, if he had ever actually downloaded and examined Stronghold and found any problems with it - he would have a leg to stand on. As it is, his allegations are completely unfounded. > Please keep this in mind if you consider buying it. Keep in mind that anything Vulis says is in all likelihood a complete lie.

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index.html
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

CNN logo Navigation Infoseek/Big Yellow Pathfinder/Warner Bros Main banner AST. Working for your business. rule BOY SHOOTS SISTER FOR TALKING ON PHONE TOO LONG October 1, 1997 Web posted at: 11:11 p.m. EDT (0311 GMT) ORANGE PARK, Florida (AP) -- A 14-year-old boy shot his sister for talking on the telephone too long, a law enforcement official said. The boy, who was not identified because of his age, was charged with attempted murder. His 15-year-old sister was treated for a gunshot wound to her chest and released from a hospital. The boy said that his sister was getting on his nerves for talking on the phone too long, the sheriff's office said. He said he took his mother's .22-caliber revolver from a locked box in her bedroom. The girl was reading a book when she was shot Monday. When officers arrived, the boy was talking on the phone. "I could understand a temper thing, but this kid had the gun for four or five hours before he went into his sister's bedroom and shot at her twice," said sheriff's Sgt. Wes Gronikowski. Copyright 1997 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. _________________________________________________________________ Infoseek search ____________________ ____ ____ _________________________________________________________________ rule Message Boards Sound off on our message boards You said it... [INLINE] AST. Working for your business. rule To the top © 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms under which this service is provided to you.

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index.html
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

CNN logo Navigation Infoseek/Big Yellow Pathfinder/Warner Bros Main banner Visit Regal at Buick.com rule NATIONWIDE CRACKDOWN ON MAIL FRAUD BEGINS Mail fraud graphic October 1, 1997 Web posted at: 11:11 p.m. EDT (0311 GMT) WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Federal, state and local law enforcement agencies joined hands with more than 1,500 private sector volunteers Wednesday to launch a nationwide crackdown on mail fraud. "Project Mailbox," initiated by the Federal Trade Commission, U.S. Postal Inspection Service, the National Association of Attorneys General and the American Association of Retired People, targets con artists who use mass mail to defraud consumers. The FBI estimated several years ago that an estimated $40 billion a year is lost to mail and telemarketing scams that include a range of deceptive claims such as phony bills, bogus advance-fee card offers and false contest claims. One goal of the new effort is to get a more accurate and up-to-date estimate on the size and nature of this problem. To assist, AARP is asking members to turn over unsolicited and suspicious mail to law enforcement officials. The coalition is also launching a consumer education campaign. rule Related sites: Note: Pages will open in a new browser window * AARP * Federal Trade Commission * United States Postal Service External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive. _________________________________________________________________ Infoseek search ____________________ ____ ____ _________________________________________________________________ rule Message Boards Sound off on our message boards You said it... [INLINE] Visit Regal at Buick.com rule To the top © 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms under which this service is provided to you.

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Upgrade to first class - nearly every time you fly...
by 53199432＠hotmail.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

To respond to this message, DO NOT HIT REPLY! (nothing will happen) Rather, use the link at the end of the message. *********************************************************** <HTML><PRE>UPGRADES to first class (domestic and international), the latest 'Two-for Ones', analysis of the many frequent flyer perks, double and triple miles, comparisons of premium class amenities and unpublicized bank card perks - sound interesting? Read on!!! You deserve the best first and business class comfort the airlines have to offer and these days domestic and international airlines are offering the most easily attainable upgrades in air travel history, many of them either without charge or even a membership in their frequent flier programs! Every issue of The Front Row Advisor bimonthly newsletter compiles and packs no-nonsense, insider air travel tips, disclosing the little-known first class promotions for all passengers and lots more; all presented in a well-organized, concise yet thorough, easily readable format. Our current issue is up to 20 pages with over 70 articles dedicated to FIRST CLASS AIR TRAVEL ONLY, NO ADVERTISING!!! The Front Row Advisor is the only thorough industry resource of low cost and no cost upgrades blended with timely, unbiased reporting from worldwide sources covering all the airlines, not just a few. Like to read more? We'd like to send you a FREE "Sneak Preview" issue! *************** CLICK HERE TO REQUEST A FREE "SNEAK PREVIEW" *************** </PRE></HTML> end END

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Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Alex Le Heux wrote: >On 2 Oct 1997 01:29:33 +0200, in list.cypherpunks you wrote: >>Cynthia Brown wrote: >>>On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Alex Le Heux wrote: >>>> This sucks. >>> >>>I agree wholeheartedly. >> >>>IMNSHO the best way to fight crime is not with bigger guns than the >>>"bad guys", but with better social programs such as universal health >>>care, and improved day care so single parents can show their kids >>>what a productive lifestyle looks like. >> >>Of course you agree wholeheartedly, you are an exploiter. It is >>wrong. You should be ashamed of yourself. > >Can you explain who exactly exploits who here? How about our friend J.F. Avon? He has the misfortune to share citizenship with Ms. Brown. Thus, while he may be minding his own business, doing nobody any harm, and pursuing happiness, should he decline to spend thousands of hours of his life working to pay money into Ms. Brown's socialist schemes, armed men will come to his house, put him in a cage, and leave him there for years. That's not a very friendly way to treat a neighbor, is it? In the United States, many thousands of people correctly recognize this situation. Many thousands of people are gun owners. Many thousands of people are not only gun owners, but combat veterans. The logical outcome would be great violence directed towards the government. Yet, this has not happened (recently ;-). Why? Certainly if the sums at stake were involved between governments, there would be fodder for many wars. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that civilians, even armed civilians with combat experience, are so overwhelmingly peace loving that they will bend very far backwards to avoid trouble, even if it means thousands of hours of work. Can the same be said of career military or government people? >PS. What's the point in posting anonymous when you have this sig? > >>Editor in Chief >>Smile Magazine >>http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html >>http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html Tools which are not used are not improved. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNDPgFZaWtjSmRH/5AQEQ8wf+PwFFagIxuwKkoR5rUAxnseSP8DzrRsrw tQD5gCZ0t1JTBdXUinhZzr2NsyKDtGoPcauDtrxqWyMdAem5ZCf2v6D8Cgm34n3Q bkmvSJbo2bSuD9ggzboENp6rhvsbJ7THf7I4eMHRIUrnPgnQbaWTOXKqBPtG5w+W qPrgHAb7s6oaB8aRqX0sPByWKqbd853RLjsy62Tl3oMc7hp70TAKwXCtXKQTUhL+ CeNBpNFvnN1nR1L3AqL5aji0/BaN+7foptPRDH3eZfUwLx547+1R+DdLKAb7u5tL RJaza5h0O3Zkg+ImlqR2cKe5awxwB6NNkm2oR1GD1p0f80+mGUHtcQ== =C9wS -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate: >For the sender to chain from remailer to remailer to destination the >destination has to be in the header info somewhere. Now in the most secure >system each packet header will only contain the address of the next hop. When >the next site gets it the packet contents are de-crypted (otherwise reading >the chaining info is trivial) and the contents are uncovered to reveal another >packet with the next hop header and another encrypted block. And on and on >we go. > ><Question: Are there any remailer sets that impliment the encrypted nested > packet system?> Jim Choate has been amazingly clueless throughout this discussion, but this takes the cake. Does he really not know about encrypted nested chaining? My God! Of course remailers work this way, Jim. They've worked this way practically from the beginning. All remailers work this way. The mixmaster remailers are built around this idea, making each packet a constant size and adding dummy packets as new ones are stripped off, so outgoing messages look just like incoming ones. How can you be arguing about remailers when you know so little about how they work? ><speculation: an encrypted chain could be made stronger if the next > hop header depended on which key was used to decode it. > In other words, remailer A's key will produce one next hop > address while remailer B's key will send it elsewhere. This > is a subset of the different plaintext - same cyphertext > problem - a hard problem as I understand it. Find two > distinct texts that encrypt with different keys to the > same cyphertext> That won't help. There would be no point in doing this. I'd ask you to explain, but that would just prolong the agony.

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Re: Stronghold
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

C2Net was wrong to censor the cypherpunks list in the guise of moderation. It was wrong to send threatening letters to people who claimed its products were weak. The whole moderation/censorship experiment was a terrible mistake. The actions taken by C2Net were completely unjustified. At the same time, it is dishonest to say that its products have backdoors or are weak. There is no evidence whatsoever that this is the case. It may stretch the intellects of some cypherpunks beyond the breaking point to hold these two views about matters at the same time. In the black and white world where some cypherpunks live, a company which tries to prevent criticism is evil, hence it must be fraudulent as well. More mature list readers will recognize that a company or a person can be wrong in some actions while being right in other ways. The burden of proof in claiming that there is a weakness in someone's security product is on those making the claim. Compare the unfounded statements by Vulis with the carefully documented breaks of weak software by Ian Goldberg, David Wagner, John Kelsey, and Bruce Schneier. What if Goldberg and Wagner had claimed that Netscape's RNG seeding was weak, without providing any more evidence than that claim? What if Schneier et al had broken cellular phone encryption without backing it up? They would have been justifiably ignored. If anyone really does believe that C2Net's products have backdoors or weaknesses, why don't they present them? Either they want people to keep using C2Net's supposedly broken products, which reflects badly on them, or they want people to stop but they are unable to present any evidence of these purported weaknesses. When Vulis or anyone else claims Stronghold is broken, ask him why he is presenting his claims in a form which will cause people to keep using this "broken" software. Does he want people to have weak encryption? Is he in favor of backdoors? If not, he would surely present evidence of the weaknesses, if there is any. Make Vulis explain his motivations when he makes these claims.

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new release of Crowds
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text X-Authentication-Warning: akalice.research.att.com: majordomo set sender to owner-crowds-talk(a)research.att.com using -f Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:28:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Reiter <reiter(a)research.att.com> To: crowds-talk(a)research.att.com Subject: new release of Crowds Sender: owner-crowds-talk(a)research.att.com Precedence: bulk Crowds 1.0.3 is now available. If you already agreed to our license on our web page, there's no need to do it again; just send email to crowds-support(a)research.att.com from the previous email address that you gave us, and we'll send 1.0.3 to you. The main change in 1.0.3 is a configuration file that eliminates the need for command-line arguments to anon.pl, and that also enables us to ship distributions ready to join our crowd (i.e., the registration step is eliminated). Hopefully this will make Crowds easier to use. - Mike --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

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CDA protects against liability
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Another case where the CDA protected against liability. Remailer ops should look into this. http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/7361.html: A San Francisco judge has ruled that a lawsuit that sought to force an Internet service provider to silence a Usenet participant is barred by the federal Communications Decency Act. At issue was a claim by San Francisco Satanists Michael and Lilith Aquino that San Diego-based ElectriCiti Inc. "breached its duty to the [plaintiffs] and to other Internet users" by failing to take action against an anonymous Usenet poster. The newsgroup participant allegedly harassed Michael Aquino, a former US Army lieutenant colonel and the leader of the Temple of Set, and his wife, Lilith. The claimed harassment took the form of messages referring to the Aquinos' involvement in a ritual child-abuse investigation in San Francisco in the 1980s. The couple was never charged with any wrongdoing. Superior Court judge David Garcia accepted ElectriCiti's contention that the lawsuit violated a little-discussed and still-in-force CDA provision that exempts ISPs from liability for content transmitted on their networks. The law states that "no provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider." The decision is one of three such cases nationwide that have been thrown out because they attempted to hold ISPs responsible for subscribers' speech, said ElectriCiti's attorney, Roger Myers.

4 4

Possible Security Hole in Internet Explorer 4.0
by Martin Minow 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From a message in MacOSRumors <http://rumors.netexpress.net/> (I have not independently verified this) --- Begin quote --- Internet Explorer 4.0 ships with major security hole.... With the Microsoft Internet Explorer 4.0 for Windows release only hours old, users have already discovered a major security hole that smacks painfully of Big Brother: Most folks will remember the Netscape java bug that allowed you to snoop on what people where visiting. Well IE4.0 goes a bit further than this - Logging of your actions, even when you would otherwise be shielded by proxies is BUILT-IN. The channel definition format (.CDF) http://www.microsoft.com/standards/cdf-f.htm includes a LOGTARGET feature that allows a web site provider to make your browser deliver logs of your usage via an http post or put. Even hits from cache are logged. This is all not so good and getting worse. Not only is the information posted material, you wouldn't want to give to a provider, (considering) "http post/put" is normally spoofable anyway. Unanswered question for next time - or for folks with more time than me to follow up Can you put other sites in your channel definition and get logs of when they read your competitor's site (with this system)? Definitely not confidence-inspiring. It appears the Mac version is affected by this same problem, as well...and neither platform has any means of disabling this "feature" at present. --- [Internet Explorer 4.0 has not yet been released for the Macintosh platform.] Martin Minow minow(a)apple.com

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Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
by alexlh＠xs4all.nl 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Matt Elliott wrote: [snip] > >You people just don't get it do you? A gun has one purpose: To kill. Just like > >any other tool, a gun, if it is available _will_ be used at some point. > > Yea, so what is your point. As long as it is lawfull killing that seems to > me to be the point to use a gun. For lawfull purposes. Criminals will > always be using guns anyway. If they take away guns people will just find > another just as forcefull method of defending them selves. I have a potato > gun that will put a 3 inch hole in just about any living creature. I'm > going to take it deer hunting this winter. It will be cool to say I shot a > dear with a potato and a can of hair spray (the propelant) I completely disagree. I bet you'd disagree too when the cops come to take you away for using illegal crypto. It would be totally lawful. But that's besides the point. Killing people is NOT a good thing. It never is. It might be unavoidable in a you-or-him situation, but that doesn't make it a good thing. Would you like to be shot? No? Not even if someone else claims he has a good reason to? I think this goes for most people. So the best that you can do it claim that _you_ think there's a good reason to kill someone. This is not a working theory for a community. Alex --- I dabble in techno-house and sometimes, I do that badass hip-hop thang... But the F U N K gets me every time!

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Re: Secure phone
by John Deters 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:21 AM 10/2/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 11:13 PM 10/1/97 -0700, Lucky Green wrote: >> Bad idea. You don't want people to have to look up keys to use your device. >> Some people may not want to be listed in the phone book. Not to mention >> that a PKI adds an additional and unnecessary layer of complexity. Just use >> DH and have the parties each read half of a hash of the public >> exponentials. No keys to store, no keys to remember, no keys to compromise. > >Trouble is this exposes the system to the man-in-the-middle attack. Perhaps >you could take advantage of the real time nature of the system to prevent >man in the middle, by constructing a protocol such that man in the middle >will invariably time out during the connection setup, or produce an >audible lag problem in speech. The MITM attack is thwarted by Lucky's note: >> DH and have the parties each read half of a hash of the public ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> exponentials. No keys to store, no keys to remember, no keys to compromise. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Each party reads off a series of digits displayed on their screen. Out loud. To each other. Over the secure phone. The MITM attacker can't duplicate the hash on both ends, because a hash of the public keys used to make the connection are different between the MITM's public key and the real public keys. Here's a secure conversation (assume for the moment that the addition below represents a strong hash): Alice <-------------------------------------> Bob PK=1234 PK=5678 1234+5678=6912 5678+1234=6912 Alice reads 69 over the phone, and Bob reads 12 back to her. Alice and Bob proceed to have a private conversation. Now, since Mallory has to create a PK, he cannot just duplicate Alice's 1234, because he'd also need the private key to decrypt the conversation. Likewise, he cannot duplicate Bob's 5678. He has to generate his own PKs in an attempt to fool Bob & Alice. Alice <-----> Mallory <-> Mallory <---------> Bob PK=1234 PK=1111 PK=2222 PK=5678 1234+1111=2345 5678+2222=7900 Alice reads "23" over the phone, and Bob reads "00" back. Since Alice's hash function said she should hear "45" back from Bob, and Bob's screen said he should have heard "79" from Alice, Alice and Bob decide to talk about the weather, and how pretty the trees are in certain cities. Mallory could try to thwart this by impersonating Bob's voice to Alice, saying "45", and Alice's voice to Bob, saying "79" (Mallory does, of course, know these numbers), but if Bob & Alice know each other, this probably won't work too well. Mallory would have to be able to cut into the conversation real-time, undetected. Now, of course, Mallory could hire Anna & Barry to pull the whole impersonation thing off, so that for the entire conversation Alice talks to Barry and Anna talks to Bob, each thinking that they're really talking to the other, but that's also fraught with risk. I'm sure they could pull it off on TV, though :-) So, it'd go full circle back to pass phrases again. "I hear the cherry trees are lovely in Washington D.C." "I wouldn't know, I've never visited Washington in the spring." "I agree, the weather is usually too wet." John -- J. Deters "Don't think of Windows programs as spaghetti code. Think of them as 'Long sticky pasta objects in OLE sauce'." +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | NET: mailto:jad@dsddhc.com (work) mailto:jad@pclink.com (home) | | PSTN: 1 612 375 3116 (work) 1 612 894 8507 (home) | | ICBM: 44^58'36"N by 93^16'27"W Elev. ~=290m (work) | | For my public key, send mail with the exact subject line of: | | Subject: get pgp key | +--------------------------------------------------------------------+

7 22

Remailers and ecash
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- An anonymous brother wrote: >Given: We want more (reliable) remailers > But someone has to pay for them > >Conjecture: New remailers can be financed by charging the users a fee per > message to use the remailers. > > If a remailer charges a fee, the number of users will be reduced to > those who are willing to pay the fee. > > When the number of users is reduced, the potential for traffic analysis > is increased, which reduces the value of the remailer. > > If the value of the remailer is reduced, it will not be worth the cost > to many users, and those users will seek a less expensive, higher > traffic remailer. > > Thus, the commercial remailer is forced to lower its prices until it is > unprofitable. > >Conclusion: Pay-per-message commecial remailers are not economically viable. You know how the remailer operators do all their work now for free because they believe in it? And how all this software has been written and given away because people believe in it? Maybe some other people will help pay for the maintenance of the remailers because they believe it is the right thing to do. Especially since it need not be forever. And, I have to believe that out of the millions of well heeled Internet users, there are enough privacy oriented people to pay for a small remailer network, at the very least. We just have to get the ball rolling, that's all. > - Pay a flat fee per month for remailer access This is isormorphic to using ecash if you want to keep the messages of each user disassociated from each other. > - Everyone a remailer. Remailers only accept messages from other > remailers. To use remailers you must run a remailer. I don't grow my own wheat, grind it up, and then make my own bread. I also prefer not to run a remailer. > - Pay for access to an anonymous message pool Interesting! > - Sell cpu cycles in exchange for remailer access If we use ecash, you can sell anything in exchange for remailer access. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNDP8VpaWtjSmRH/5AQEMNgf9FY0zq4+p1R6F4GPIvLCqQQsXJ9TeeNSX v8sH99yUpYm+FmJuxwoGzel0Q0VRaR6NakuTx/Q1tKzSA4H2cnslEixyft9c0CsE 5dWEXe7694x/el4xXJcoX3+XNrKjo8qAERe9jcttPUtEgwT+2+JnfcMOudX7UZd6 LL8OvpD9CJrwQuJIeaNgbftwuVukuLkCRWJ1wrsJAs37Y9w9GqA+RTlqNXbElyi6 ryC17sysWOaFVryjLEHYXL9r60Ct9ZHp1hQoP0O1yCyKa5BMrTsVfXWOXuU/qSDe w0cfkcZ6lI8EmZObcOLr3sRdblq7nojoBctypSkILwEtEqgbpW0HXg== =TgmT -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

2 1

Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- My brother VerityMonger wrote: >Fascism hadn't died, it has just gone underground and crept into >every facet of life through the corporate and government power >mongers. The government and the mass media are working the citizens >like dumb fish on a hook, who are still trying to swallow the >worm. There is a New World Order on the way, and it isn't going to be >any prettier than the last time it was tried. No doubt VerityMonger knows this, but many others may not: "New World Order" was a phrase originally coined by Josef Goebbels. Interestingly, the term "European Community" arose out of German industrial discussion groups in ~1944 who were trying to find a way to salvage the German position at the time. One idea was to make peace and attempt to establish a "European Community". Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNDP5BJaWtjSmRH/5AQFnGwf9HBs0DDAjhc0PPHjnKsGQ1JRaB797fIaO Cbz+QvUs/OzClpSrPQAighJ5DlE3yNWseBxCaYDQ/dOxhpB/vnFI509FRBqgDgOp qaYqaQVdWjeirrAlWFpeMV9yjKlk09fTe3ospvenDFkNvrJedTeP73t8bCceq/Iz +I2dWn3/eCmm0+Xlblm/ljETBXCh6i4WpfnRuA0htJQQJwctPjopuxOo3vpde4JH //clHjOckrkqo/H4+D1iX7BeAJOYUnToGO4r/w1vvGEWEZG4pGfB9MNZ74P71JFs 3lmCXJ2p+D55fmhjmHrNQFfi+oFmbnt0u/yuxlI2O0Qr/obwje7oIA== =6SBY -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Crypto-continuation in Washington: FBI/DoJ keep up the pressure
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Crypto is hot in Washington. Don't think the battle's over; it's just beginning: * This afternoon when the Senate Intelligence committee met to consider a new CIA deputy director, Sen. Bob Kerrey said "there's a real urgency" to get an encryption bill passed. (Presumably, that would be his bill, the "Key Escrow Infrastructure" McCain-Kerrey/S.909.) Anyone still think that the Senate will do the right thing on crypto? Think again... * Last week Janet Reno talked at her weekly press conference about balancing law enforcement rights with privacy rights -- through mandatory domestic key escrow. * Yesterday Louis Freeh spoke at length before the House International Relations committee about the spread of nuclear weapons... and reminded committee members about the problems the FBI has with nonescrowed crypto... * Sen. Jon "Mandatory Domestic Key Escrow" Kyl said on Sunday that the Clinton administration's export controls on crypto were *not tight enough*... More info: http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1385,00.html http://www.jya.com/declan8.htm -Declan **************** HEARING OF THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE NOMINATION OF LT.-GEN. JOHN A. GORDON TO BE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY CHAIRMAN: SENATOR RICHARD SHELBY (R-AL) 106 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON, DC 2:00 P.M. EDT WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1997 SEN. KERREY: I hope no doubt that you've heard of and perhaps had the opportunity to read the recommendations made by Senators Helms and Moynihan, but I think they're excellent. It's an excellent examination of, first, the need in some instances to classify, as well as the need to examine that classification system. It's not really a question, General Gordon. I think it's imperative that, on the issue of encryption, that the president exert some authority and try to pull together the congressional leaders and say, "We need a secure public network." There's counter-intelligence concerns. There's national security issues here at stake, obviously, balanced against the concerns for civil liberties and the concern for commercial interests and the need to develop. But there's lots of action up here on the Hill, both in the House and the Senate, in half a dozen committees or eight or nine committees, or Lord knows how many altogether, more than I realized existed. And I think there's a real urgency to get something passed both for the private sector, so they can have some stability, but also on the public-sector side, so we can protect the nation's interests. MR. GORDON: Senator, I have not delved that deeply into the encryption issue. I certainly take your point on this point. But I do know that if the Senate does confirm me that that will be squarely on my plate. **************** ATTORNEY GENERAL JANET RENO'S WEEKLY MEDIA AVAILABILITY U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE WASHINGTON, DC THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 1997 Q No, wait - ATTY GEN. RENO: You've got to be quicker than that. Q (Inaudible) - yes, ma'am. Director Freeh and Director Constantine both have complained that U.S.-made encryption devices are giving the drug cartels an advantage whereby interdiction becomes impaired. Would you favor, as Mr. Freeh does, some kind of giving of the keys to these devices to the FBI and DEA? ATTY GEN. RENO: I don't think that Director Freeh favors giving keys to the FBI and to the DEA. Q No? ATTY GEN. RENO: What Director Freeh has talked about is what we have today - if someone is going to tap a phone, they don't just go in and tap the phone, if they're going to do it legally. What law enforcement does is it develops probable cause to believe that the telephone is being used to commit a crime and that to overhear would provide evidence of a crime. That is submitted to a judge, both in federal court and in many states courts where wiretapping is authorized. The judge reviews the sufficiency of the affidavits in support of the petition and enters an order directing the telephone company to provide that opportunity. What Director Freeh is hoping to achieve is the same thing with respect to encrypted products; so that the court would direct that the key be provided to the telecommunications system, or the other system, in order to decrypt the encoded message. What we're trying - what the administration is trying to do is to recognize that there are two important interests at stake here. One is the law enforcement interest, which is so vital with respect to terrorists, with respect to being able to decrypt the drug dealer's computer when I - I can get a search warrant now and seize his black book and I can read his black book or decipher what he's talking about. But if he can encrypt the information on his computer, that will be a significant obstacle to law enforcement. At the same time, the whole purpose of encryption with modern telecommunication is to provide for the privacy interest, of commercial interest of the average citizen. And so I think it's important that we work together to ensure the law enforcement capacity and ensure that the present capacity to get court-ordered authorities for surveillance are continued and are made real, while at the same time ensuring privacy. Q So you're saying that the phone company would have the responsibility? Do they have the capability of encrypting? ATTY GEN. RENO: The phone company doesn't have it. There would be a system whereby a key would be provided through third parties or otherwise. But this is something that we need to work together on to ensure that law enforcement interests are protected and that privacy interests are protected as well. **************** HEARING OF THE HOUSE INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS COMMITTEE SUBJECT: ORGANIZED CRIME CHAIRED BY: REPRESENTATIVE BEN GILMAN (R-NY) LOUIS FREEH, DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION 2172 RAYBURN HOUSE OFFICE BUILDING WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 1, 1997 10:00 A.M EDT REP. : Following up on what Mr. Hyde said on your need to fight international crime and terrorism, what do you need, as an agency director and for your agency, in terms of specifics to wage a fight that you can win? MR. FREEH: Yes, sir. As I mentioned in my statement, I think we need it on three levels. We need the permanent and minimal FBI presence overseas to develop the kinds of relationships that Dr. de Gennaro and I have had now for 18 years. We have asked for, and the Congress approved last year, in August of 1996, a plan to expand the FBI's Ligat (sp) program from approximately 23 to 43 Ligats. That would call for, by the end of 1999, 146 special agents in 42 different countries with 116 support employees. That's a total of 262 people. As I mentioned, the plan was submitted last year. It wasn't just an FBI plan. It was jointly submitted by the State Department and the attorney general. And we've asked for funding in the 1998 and 1999 budgets to reach that level. We've also asked for a continuation of the training. As I mentioned, we've been able to train thousands of police officers around the world. The benefit of that training is two-fold. First of all, we can give them what they need most of all, which are the basic tools to conduct their own investigations. Just as importantly, we develop through those relationships, as Dr. de Gennaro described it, the cop-to-cop contacts and relationships. So an FBI agent or a DEA agent can pick up the phone and speak to a police commander in Uzbekistan or Kazakhstan, if that's the place where we need to do our work. So the training is a very important part of the whole program. And again, and finally, we need the technological tools to do our work. We have to be able to communicate rapidly and securely. We have to deal with encryption. We have to deal with cyber-crime. And those are all part of a larger technological challenge which we're trying to meet. [...] REP. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): Thank you, John. Director Freeh, appreciate your testimony. It's been quite riveting, actually. One of the briefing papers we have indicates that the American public, in a recent poll, whatever you want to take polls worth, say that 70 percent of the American people who were surveyed found it likely that the United States could be attacked by terrorist groups within the next decade using smuggled nuclear devices. If you were asked that, what category would you be in? MR. FREEH: I think it's a threat and a possibility that should occupy our highest priority. I think we've seen attacks certainly in Oklahoma, in New York City. We know that many of the state sponsors of terror, including Iran, are rapidly and very aggressively acquiring nuclear technology, both in terms of warheads and launching devices. We know that many of the state sponsors of terrorism, particularly Iran, sponsor and fund and control Hezbollah groups, including groups which have connections and operations in the United States. So the links, although I don't think I've seen them in a documented form, clearly suggest that if a terrorist is willing to use a truck bomb to blow up a building with thousands of people at risk, the accomplishment of the particular objective would not be changed or influenced by the opportunity to use a much more devastating (nuclear?) or biological or chemical agent. So I think we have to take the possibility extremely seriously and we have to take drastic steps to try to prevent and detect that. **************** [This thanks to John Young. --Declan] Remarks by Senator Jon Kyl at the First International Conservative Congress--September 28, 1997 [...] The Clinton Administration pursues a foreign policy without clear goals or the will to act decisively and is squandering the national security means left to it by a dozen years of Republican presidency. It emphasizes hope over reality and reliance on arms control agreements like the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT), the Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) Treaty, and the Chemical Weapons Convention (CWC) over a stronger defense. And political benefit over national security, as in its decisions to cave in to the concerns of some in industry in irresponsibly relaxing export controls on key items like encryption technology and supercomputers. **************** ------------------------- Declan McCullagh Time Inc. The Netly News Network Washington Correspondent http://netlynews.com/

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Re: Forwarded mail...
by Brian B. Riley 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/2/97 11:36 AM, Mark Rogaski (wendigo(a)ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org) passed this wisdom: >An entity claiming to be Brian B. Riley wrote: > >:: ... nothing personal, but why is it people keep deluding >themselves : with the idea that they can shoot to wound. You cannot >know what a > >Because that's what all the cops on TV do. Most people see >non-lethal leg shots on TV all the time, so they assume that it's >probable. Even worse was "The A-Team" where hundreds of rounds were >fired, but no one ever got hurt. It was intended to reduce the >amount of violence on TV, but (in my opinion) only made gunplay >seem like a safe recreational activity. ... oh, I well know the answer to the question ... just waxing a little bit rhetorical ... I would seriously like to be there to look into they eyes of the yahoos who so bithely espouse dropping the hammer on a person right after they have watched the life drain from someones eyes the for very first time and see just how well they feel and how cocky and cavalier they still are. I wouldn't wish that burden on anyone. You just can have no idea unless you have been there. We send men off to war and then get all upset when so many come back with there brains on crooked ... the sheeple have no idea what they have done to these men (and now women) !!! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNDQS3sdZgC62U/gIEQLMfACdEDkNNtzbeccxGJGcuvuUkp810IoAoJZV 0HbGxZ0ogu2gzzGNIYhilxM+ =8vrU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr For my PGP Keys <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key> "...error reading WinOS. (A)bort, (R)etry, (M)acintosh?"

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Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Alex Le Heux wrote: >On 2 Oct 1997 00:24:27 +0200, Anonymous (sic) <anon(a)anon.efga.org> wrote: >>Alex Le Heux wrote: >>>Maybe you haven't noticed, but seen on 2000 year scales, the entire >>>world is constantly in a state of war. Europe isn't special in that >>>regard. >> >>I guess the conclusion, then, is that gun control is bad for the >>whole world, not just Europe. > >Eh, no. The conclusion would be that gun control or no gun control >does not affect the amount of war in the world at all. It certainly affect civilians! Most of the people who die in wars are not in armies. They are in villages, towns, and cities. Roughly 50 million people died in World War II. Perhaps 15 million (numbers approximate) were soldiers. Being unarmed is often unlucky. >>>And even if I had my AR15 then, it wouldn't help me a lot against >>>guided missiles and mortar fire. >> >>It's harder to police a hostile population which is well armed. > >True, but imho this will only result in more people getting killed. It can result in that, certainly. But somehow the next time your country is overrun, I doubt you would take your weapons (assuming you had any) and give them to the invader in the hope that this will increase the likelihood of your survival. >Any invader would not beat about the bush in the US, they'll make >very clear that they'll have nothing to do with citicens defending >their own homes. They'll just blow up the home from a distance. Ah, if they know which home to blow up they will. But they won't. (Unless they get their hands on the government gun registration records. Then they'll know which homes to go to.) >>>And anyway, "to defend yourself in a war" is not one of the usual >>>arguments against gun control. >> >>The popularity of an argument can be independent of its worth. >> >>"To defend yourself in general" is commonly used. War, oppressive >>government, and political turbulence are the most likely situations >>in which people need their weapons, even in the United States. > >Bullshit. People in the US rarely use their weapons against oppressive >governments or political turbulence. Sometimes we do. Study the Black Panthers. You raise a good point, though. I believe that widespread gun ownership acts as a dampener on conflict. People discover that they really can respect Group X enough to cut some kind of deal rather than herding them into concentration camps. The dynamic here is probably complicated. It isn't as simple as "Oh, we don't want to go after them, they have guns!" That underlies the process, but usually it translates into respect. (Look at how people feel about a "Mafia Don" versus "some greaseball working in a restaurant". Most people despise the man in the restaurant, even though when presented in neutral terms they claim to respect his behavior. What's the difference between these two people? It isn't that one is the nicer guy.) Should things progress to the point where armed troops are attempting to haul people out of their homes, the availability of firearms acts to drawn attention to what is happening. The people committing the acts are getting very strong signals that Something Is Wrong. The cost of collecting people increases dramatically when they are armed. In Berlin the assembly area for Jewish people was originally somewhere in the center of the city where other civilians could see what was going on. This caused discomfort and a certain amount of unrest amongst the population, so they moved the assembly area to the outskirts. But, there would be no denying the implications of automatic weapons fire all over the city. Would this guarantee survival? No, it would not. But, in my opinion, it would increase the odds. You can imagine it going wrong: "We won't be safe until we get rid of all those Jews and they damned assault rifles!" But, probably it would go the right way. >Most guns that are used against another person there are used to >commit crime or to defend against those armed criminals. - From day to day this may be true. But we are talking about those exceptional circumstances that arise every few decades, especially in countries where the peasants are not allowed to own weapons. And, you might want to take a look at the numbers. How many people have been murdered outright by their own governments in the 20th century? (This number excludes wars, which probably isn't reasonable.) It clocks in at well over 100 million. (Anybody have the actual number?) It takes a lot of bar shootings to get up to those kinds of numbers. >>I have to confess that I am surprised at the level of resentment >>among the members of various Europeans countries feel towards other >>European countries. For example, the Germans don't like the Dutch >>because when they visit they are treated badly by, among others, the >>police. The Dutch don't like the Germans because, well, they got to >>know them a little too well in the 1940s and they are nursing the >>grudge. >> >>With that sort of situation, anything can happen and it can happen >>quickly, even if things seem mellow right now. And these little >>resentments and jealousies are felt between far more groups in >>Europe than just between the Dutchies and the Germans. > >Excuse me? Have you ever even been in Europe? In the last 50 years I >mean? You are so full of shit here, it's incredible. I hereby invite >you to come over, and stay a while. I have a comfy couch. Thank you for your kind offer. If things go to hell here in the U.S. in the next couple of years I may take you up on it. Yes, I have been in Europe. I drew my conclusions from talking to and observing many Europeans. It wasn't what I expected, but it caused me to understand European history a little better. In the U.S., even when we are ragging on another ethnic group or another country, there is always this feeling in the air that is sort of naughty and low class to be doing it. In Europe, I did not sense this at all. (That's not all bad. It's not hypocritical.) People had all sorts of interesting views about people in other countries. I was particularly shocked by European anti-semitism. You can find people in the U.S. who will talk about "those New York Jew bankers" and the like, but I hadn't really seen hardcore anti-semitism before. By hardcore, I mean people who see all Jewish people as belonging to the same nationality, regardless of their passport. And, they don't think of this as a particularly remarkable thing. They see it as just one of those obvious facts that it would be foolish to deny. Jewish friends who travel in Europe have had repeated experiences where people want to treat them as Jews, rather than as Americans of the Jewish religion, which is what they are. >Anyone in Europe can go anywhere else, and be treated reasonably to >very well. We in Europe have put the crap of WWII behind us a long >time ago. Something that you haven't managed to do apparently. > >The Dutch are absolutely not 'nursing a grudge'. Come and visit. >You'll see. I did see. It was most interesting. I had a long conversation with a Dutch man once. He was very pleasant, civilized, and intelligent. Then he started telling me about the Germans and how pushy they were, how they always butt in line, etc. etc. I've heard similar things from other Dutch people. I personally witnessed a (very minor) incident. I have some German friends who were foully treated by the police in the Netherlands, too. These people are decent, polite, professional people. I have no doubt they did nothing whatsoever to provoke this treatment. (By "no doubt" I mean that we are talking about the most civilized people I have ever known.) But, they will never return to the Netherlands and I don't blame them. You might want to try a little experiment. Are you capable of appearing to be German? If you can get the style and the body language down, try coming into the Netherlands as a German visitor and see what kinds of response you get. If you can really fool people into thinking you are German you will probably learn something interesting about your country. (It might be hard to pull this off, though.) >>Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their >>occupation. While there certainly were many courageous Dutch people >>who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least), and >>there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance, >>there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well. Not >>only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch >>informers, but there were even Dutch SS units. > >You have a nerve. You, coming from a country where people are still >regularly killed in the name of racism, tell me this?! Now, now, now. Don't get all excited. I said it was nice country, didn't I? I said some bad things about my own country, didn't I? The fact is, I think if you randomly selected people from the Netherlands, in general you would do pretty well. However, let's not deny what happened historically. Even nice appearing people do bad things. And they aren't always Nazis, either. As for racism, Europe is not without racism. It's hard to quantify it and hard to compare, but I suspect to a very great extent, America is seen as being racist because we discuss it, feel guilty about it, and try (sort of) to do something about it. (Never mind all of the ethnic groups in the U.S. that find they are able to live together harmoniously, even though their ancestors in Europe were continuously at each other's throats.) I've had two American friends who were beaten in Europe in racial incidents. One was white, one was black. One of them spent time in the hospital. Both crossed the racial line all the time in the U.S. without incident. >>I basically think well of the Netherlands and its people, but it is >>important to recognize that certain unpleasant characteristics exist >>in a large portion of the population of even a nice country. It is >>unlucky to pretend that these characteristics can never be expressed. > >We absolutely not pretending that this can never be expressed. In >fact, it's being expressed every day. We have our neo-nazi political >parties too. It's just that we here have learned our lesson, and very >few people actually listen to them. This may be true, but it's hard to tell. The climate is not conducive right now, either. What would happen if it suddenly became clear that anti-semitism would promote one's career? I think you would find them coming out of the woodwork again. >>What would have happened if the citizens of El Salvador were >>adequately armed? One thing you wouldn't see is a death squad going >>into a neighborhood to kick down some innocent's door and murder him >>or his family. At least, you wouldn't see it twice. > >Sure you would. It just would be that more bloody. The fact that >someone is armed has never stopped anyone from attacking. You just >make sure that your shot is the first and hits. What are people in death squads like? Believe it or not, they are not so different from ourselves. They also have fears. People do, in fact, act on their fear from time to time. If you think that while you are busy "shooting first" at some guy that maybe his neighbors won't mind blowing your head off for it, you are going to behave more cautiously. At the very least, it will cut down your nightly "take" by at least 70%. That's a big deal if you are part of the surviving group. >>People who are well armed are less likely to become pawns, victims, >>or slaves. That is desirable. > >They are just more likely to become dead. If you were faced with somebody you believed would enslave you, would you throw away your weapon in the hopes your life would be spared? I doubt this very much. >>Incidentally, the consistent support the U.S. government has shown >>for murderous or even genocidal governments is of great concern to >>those of us who live in the U.S. It is unlikely that these tactics >>won't be used here were there a serious political struggle and a >>disarmed population. > >- From over here it appears that the majority of Americans doesn't >really give a shit. Correct me if I'm wrong. It was hypothetical. I don't know if such a serious political struggle will arise in the near future. If most Americans don't give a damn, it will be very unlucky for troublemakers like the cypherpunks. In fact, though, most Americans do give a damn. Look at the great effort the government has to go through to get Americans into wars. It is a source of endless frustration to the elite that the population won't just hop into wars. Wilson and Roosevelt were both elected on peace platforms before getting us into the World Wars. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNDPwxpaWtjSmRH/5AQHswAf/WD4jWejWmUX4GAaEkWcJW5uhnEXjiLap G2lhu5E4/htFDe791IK6iZ1Pn9i7y8FnyzQMKwoA4sFlgFl4ZAZWCGktnLPBryOY Mqk2ckQGdYEa87vsFVSPZsVCJ51vJadqeAE/dZgWSbB+Vhck+2AcNypw5gCFHT3F N92K+KGvw/bKMS4oucomNaD1kpEsGcCBL95zcv/ZbgMKCz9LkdgHoS/GyzdssNCj BCZWhnUci5gFM1Pa1AAM7HNwkohFMfEsX1dpKr56NbziT1QwUXLHUzW8Qxf+OB2h 6p+xLwcWzFNzpyN6CzJHbxaB0S9PVIuy9zMDz3xMynaAy3S+2zmVaw== =tIFo -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Stronghold
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>> C2Net was wrong to censor the cypherpunks list in the guise of >> moderation. It was wrong to send threatening letters to people who >> claimed its products were weak. The whole moderation/censorship >> experiment was a terrible mistake. The actions taken by C2Net were >> completely unjustified. > >Where do people get these bizarre ideas? C2 didn't censor the list. A >guy who happened to work for C2 dropped some messages from one >list. The messages still went out on the unfiltered list. Had he >worked for Mc Donald's or the the NYC Sanitiation Department, would >you blame them for this as well? C2 employees informally mentioned libel suits to several cypherpunks, such as Tim May. Given that a good percentage of the company, perhaps a majority, was involved with this incident, it seems reasonable to judge the character of the company based on these actions. This incident changed my view of C2 considerably. Initially I held them in the highest regard. No longer. (Your employment by C2 should have been mentioned in your post. Many people on the list may not know about it. It is relevant.)

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Re: Forwarded mail... (fwd)
by Brian B. Riley 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/2/97 2:35 AM, Jim Choate (ravage(a)ssz.com) passed this wisdom: >Remember: A gun is like a finger, just point it at what you want to >hit. > >I have met hundreds of great shots in my life, there are many >people forwhom this sort of behaviour would not be delusional. My >grandfather (who you'll hear more about in a minute) used to >delight us as small kids by lighting matches stuck in wood fence >posts with a .22 pistol from about 50 yds. My cousin from Louisiana >likes to shoot squirrels (if you can callit that) by passing the >bullet just in front of their nose, causes lung hemorraghes and >they just fall off the limb. Me, I always miss or blow theirteeny >little head off, it's apparently a game of 1/4 inches. I work with >anex-gomer (ie USMC) pilot who is quite phenomenal with his .357 >Desert Eagle,his groupings are just about an inch at 25 yds. None of these targets shoots back ... none of these targets pump up much adrenaline. I would never call myself a great shot (I did qualify expert at both rifle, M-14, "A" course and pistol, .45, 1911A1), and I can tell you of making several 25-35 yard snap shots in the jungle at moving shooting targets with the adrenaline driving my eyeballs through the roof ... but they were exactly that, pure reflex, center of body mass shots, under max pressure. I must in all fairness recall the other three to six shots each time that could have gone anywhere and probably did. The point is, "shooting to wound" is a dangerous delusion! *no one* can predict what a bullet will do when it enters the body. The rule I have always followed is don't take out your gun unless you are going to use it; don't use it unless you intend to kill. Makes decisions much easier on that basis. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNDQjysdZgC62U/gIEQL2pwCfYadqKN/3+wKF1BYC7MZxp8y3ud0An1L4 yXD3o+rsefpV8FO8MqD6OEtl =GHfD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Brian B. Riley --> http://www.macconnect.com/~brianbr For PGP Keys <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key> "The Box said Win '95 or better - So I used a Macintosh!" -- Harold Herbert Tessman

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Re: Quor's cipher
by Antonomasia 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Antonomasia <ant(a)notatla.demon.co.uk> wrote: > My attack takes a long chunk of known text and looks for repetition. > > ppppppppppppppp.11.pppppppppppppppppppppp > ccccccccccccccc.22.cccccccccccccccccccccc > > When a two neighbouring p-c pairs are the same you can test > whether they have the same value of a and b. > (That is a_n == a_n+1 and b_n == b+n+1, a != b usually.) > > This involves 16 inputs to each byte - very cheap. > What I really want next is to know "a". nobody(a)REPLAY.COM wrote: > Wouldn't this only happen (on average) in one out of every 65536 p-c > pairs? Yes (counting only those we test). > Since the state array is changed entirely with every 128 bytes > encrypted, 1 out of 2^16 doesn't seem to help much. This finding doesn't uncover a great deal, I agree, and what it does uncover is transient. 1 out of 2^16 is the number of pairs we test to find a point with the property we're looking for. The measures to compare this to are: message length several times 65k is fairly low cost of testing low benefit of test when passed also low :-( The changes are regular though, progressing through the array in two places. That's why I proposed testing neighbouring p-c pairs because you can be almost sure the relevant state (and it's which part of the state array is relevant that's uncertain) is the same for the two. In fact it would be nice to spot this: ppppppppppppppp.11.ppppppppppppppppppppp ccccccccccccccc.22.ccccccccccccccccccccc and see that a and b were the same, but the underlying state array changed in a relevant way. This would be indicated by a slightly less than total match, but still rare enough not to be a fluke. This could allow you to test possible values of a and b, and perhaps get 4 bits of a. But a and b don't persist over nearby bytes so I'm not clear what I'd do if I got them. What it would be nice to have next is a more damaging result emerge from this or some other observation so that we could determine more of the state without going to long range comparisons. This cypher is constructed differently from RC4 or fish - not as simple as WAKE but broadly comparable to Sapphire II. I think I'll enlist the help of a search engine. It's more than likely there other things waiting to be done to this. Quor's friend 'nobody' has actually put some crypto on the list -let's see what we can do with/to it. -- ############################################################## # Antonomasia ant(a)notatla.demon.co.uk # # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/ # ##############################################################

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Hansa.net's LOCI encourages development of e-commerce financial products and services
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text X-Authentication-Warning: fma66.fma.com: majordomo set sender to owner-espam(a)lists.espace.net using -f X-Orig-From: "Bell, Lynwood" <hansa(a)ibm.net> X-e$pam-source: Various X-Sender: rah(a)pop.sneaker.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 13:44:21 -0400 To: espam(a)intertrader.com From: Robert Hettinga <rah(a)shipwright.com> Subject: Hansa.net's LOCI encourages development of e-commerce financial products and services Sender: owner-espam(a)lists.espace.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: e$(a)thumper.vmeng.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list --------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Bell, Lynwood" <hansa(a)ibm.net> Reply-To: hansa(a)ibm.net Organization: The Span-Hansa Group MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Hettinga, Robert" <rah(a)shipwright.com> CC: "Cate, Vince" <vince(a)offshore.com.ai> Subject: Hansa.net's LOCI encourages development of e-commerce financial products and services Bob, I just announced this today for our public company. It might be appropriate to send it to either or both of your e$lab and FC98 mailing lists. I am not going to be able to accommodate hundreds of ventures but, given that some will have their own resources, money, etc. and only want the venue and the Bank to play with... it may be very interesting for all of us. Add this to the pot in whatever way you feel is appropriate. Cheers, Lyn ------------- Hansa.net Global Commerce, Inc. The Hansa Bank Bldg, Box 213, Landsome Road, The Valley, Anguilla, B.W.I., TV1 02P Phone (264) 497-3800, Fax 497-3801, email hansa(a)ibm.net PRESS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Hansa.net and Hansa Bank join forces to encourage the development of e-commerce financial products and services to further expand Hansa.net's offerings of Location Optimized Commerce on the Internet (LOCI ). October 1, 1997 - Hansa.net Global Commerce, Inc. together with Hansa Bank & Trust Company Limited, both of Anguilla, British West Indies, and both members of the Span-Hansa Group, have agreed to jointly sponsor emerging Internet technologies which will enhance e-commerce through specifically tailored banking and financial applications. Lynwood S. Bell, Chairman of Hansa Bank, the controlling shareholder of Hansa.net a publicly traded company, said "Many excellent start-up companies lack a vehicle through which to perfect their product or service and to test their market acceptance. Most traditional domestic banks, encumbered with vast legacy systems and bureaucracies are reluctant to entertain these developers in live trials. The Hansa Bank, a British regulated private merchant and investment bank offering a full range of banking and brokerage services, has agreed to provide platforms for approved developers and to participate actively with them. All applications will be thoroughly screened, carefully controlled in their development and testing phases and will be completely isolated from the Bank's existing business. The Bank expects that some of these products may eventually result in leading edge products and services for the Bank." Hansa.net's role will be to assist in marketing any developed products to other banks and financial institutions. As well Hansa.net's existing LOCI clients are expected to benefit from the Bank's new or enhanced services. The first project, currently undergoing final review prior to being accepted by the Bank for testing, involves a Dutch developer of digital chequing. Plans are to demonstrate the product at the Financial Cryptograph 98 Conference, February 23-26, 1998 (see http:www.fc98.ai). Hansa Bank is one of the sponsors of this conference. Vince Cate, an Internet and cryptography expert recently featured in Forbes and Wired Magazines is participating with Hansa.net and Hansa Bank on this project. He said, "Many brilliant e-commerce ideas and products never reach the market because they have no incubator or no real life environment in which to test. Hansa.net and Hansa Bank provide both. As well, Anguilla is the perfect venue for such development in terms of sample size, global perspective, government support, and of course, the absence of any taxes. We fully expect that many of the products developed will end up in companies which are incorporated and reside here in Anguilla." About Hansa.net and the related Span-Hansa Group Hansa.net was founded in 1978 for computer systems development and software design. In 1985 the company went public, and subsequently expanded into software product development, marketing, and international trade technology. Hansa.net's primary role is to coordinate all of the elements of Location Optimized Commerce on the Internet (LOCI pronounced "low-see") for its clients. Hansa.net trades on the Vancouver Stock Exchange under the symbol "HAN" Both companies are part of the Span-Hansa Group comprised of ten organizations doing business in as many international locations. The Group's activities also include the financing of intellectual property, public stock offerings, acquisitions and mergers, and consulting on international business structures and trade. The Group maintains offices in Amsterdam, Barbados, and Anguilla, More information on the Span-Hansa Group and on other Span-Hansa strategic partners can be found on the Company's Internet home page: http://www.hansa.net. Lynwood S. Bell President Contact: Hansa.net - Lynwood Bell Vince Cate (264) 497-3800 hansa(a)ibm.net (264) 497-3255 vince(a)offshore.com.ai The Vancouver Stock Exchange has neither approved nor disapproved of this release. ====================================================================== LYNWOOD BELL - Span-Hansa Group, Hansa.net Global Commerce, Hansa Bank http://www.hansa.net ====================================================================== --------------------------------------------------------------------- Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info(a)hyperion.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- Like e$? Help pay for it! See <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html> Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, <mailto:rah@shipwright.com> --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

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Re: Stronghold
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Lucky Green <shamrock(a)cypherpunks.to> writes: > On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Anonymous wrote: > > > > > C2Net was wrong to censor the cypherpunks list in the guise of moderation. > > It was wrong to send threatening letters to people who claimed its > > products were weak. The whole moderation/censorship experiment was a > > terrible mistake. The actions taken by C2Net were completely unjustified. > > Where do people get these bizarre ideas? C2 didn't censor the list. A guy > who happened to work for C2 dropped some messages from one list. The > messages still went out on the unfiltered list. Had he worked for Mc > Donald's or the the NYC Sanitiation Department, would you blame them for > this as well? Are you serious? The messages dropped were those which made (spurious) claims of weaknesses in C2 products. And later messages were dropped which attempted to discuss the dropping of earlier messages. The effect was that subscribers to the filtered list not only were not exposed to the messages critical of C2, they were prevented from knowing that a controversy existed about the filtering policies. There can be little doubt of the truth of these facts. One of us is remembering things wrongly. And yes, if the moderator were a McDonalds employee and he not only dropped messages which criticized McDonalds, but also filtered out later messages complaining about his actions, then I'd jolly well blame him.

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Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"
by Blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Individuals need ways to defend themselves from the physical aggression of others. One of the reasons why people associate into societies, cities, and governments, is for the advantages of protection which can be achieved by large numbers of people acting in concert against their common enemy. They also insitute police forces and national defense agencies for the same reason: defense against physical aggression. Everyone on the planet has enemies, and anyone can become, or behave essentially as, an enemy - even someone's physically stronger kid brother who decides to hit them with a stone because of talking on the phone too long, even a former lover/husband who decides to kill their girlfriend/wife out of jealousy. Stalkers, thieves, rapists, drug addicts, perverts, etc., or just real animals from the animal kingdom, strike at the most inopportune times, when there are no officially sanctioned police forces around to be of help. But even if there were security guards constantly available at every street corner or planted inside one's house, the principle is the same: people are physially vulnerable and need defense from those who would take advantage of them, who would by weaken them and do physical harm. Guns are imperfect tools and humans are often imperfect fools in the use of them. Se la vie. Nevertheless, until the design of guns is improved, or until there is a better weapon, a better tool invented which can be used by individuals - independently of organized defense agencies - for their own use in regard of their own safety, guns will be manufactured, sold, and bought. And used. Killing people is a Bad Thing, but there exist people who don't prevent themselves from doing harmful, destructive things to others. At that particular point in time, when they are about to commit their crime against another, their potential victims are in the position of having to do something of practical use, and quickly. They could use karate, or ju-jitsu, or ninja stars, or call their dog to attack, or yell for help, or use their special pocket knife, or run, or use a gun. But they must do *something*, they must employ some means to prevent from being harmed, or from having their valuables taken, or else suffer the consequences of debility or death. Such is the position which an "out-of-control" person can put one in. It is possible to reason that such uncontrolled people need to have been raised better, could have received psychological assistance, should have been given an alternative view of life, might have been presented with better values and philosophies, etc. But you have to also consider how much intellectual support any individual must be provided - must they be programmed from birth with the proper structure of behavior, in order to have around oneself the convenience of living with "good people" who are not inimical to the society? (and would that be a society of real humans, of interest to other real humans) Is what a person makes of themselves ultimately a personal project, or is it to be pre-determined and continuously managed by others (parents, teachers, guidance counselors, psychologists, government clerks, policing agencies, government agencies, government leaders). When you relate to a person, will you be relating to someone with their own identity and personal ambitions, who make independent decisions about the actions they take, or only to a product of other people's influence? In any case, when someone behaves counter to your own wishes and seeks do with you what they will, or to take from you what they will, including your life, you must determine whether to allow it or how to prevent it - and if moved to prevent it, what will work to accomplish that. It might be necessary to kill that Bad Person (though not their whole family or relatives or neighborhood or race or country). .. Blanc

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Re: Forwarded mail... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: Forwarded mail... (fwd) > Date: Thu, 2 Oct 97 18:52:18 -0400 > From: "Brian B. Riley" <brianbr(a)together.net> > None of these targets shoots back ... none of these targets pump up > much adrenaline. I have been shot at several times, some were hunting accidents and some were intentional. I did not freek out nor did my adrenalin rush impede my ability to think or to react. I did shoot back in each case. I am still alive and don't have a single bullet hole in my body so I must be doing something right. Don't know about them, I left the area in every case ASAP. > can tell you of making several 25-35 yard snap shots in the jungle at > moving shooting targets with the adrenaline driving my eyeballs > through the roof My house at 1am is not comparable to the jungle nor is the psychological situation comparable either. I am not confused about where or what is going on nor am I worried about making my tour. I am faced with the clear situation of somebody who wants to do me bodily harm. That doesn't scare me, it pisses me off to no end. When I get a rush I don't shake and such, I get very calm and methodical. It's only after the crisis has passed that I tend to sit down and shake like hell. > The point is, "shooting to wound" is a dangerous delusion! No shit. Let me make this clear. The ONLY way I would even consider shooting to wound was if the burglar was CLEARLY UNARMED, and the only reason that would happen was because in Texas shooting unarmed persons, even burglars, is illegal other than that you'd be dead. In any other situation my intent is to kill, kill, kill. As I said before, I would start with a center chest body shot and work up (which is natural since the aim point for successive shots will rise). > have always followed is don't take out your gun unless you are going > to use it; don't use it unless you intend to kill. Makes decisions > much easier on that basis. We agree on this point. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 18:22:26 -0700 > From: Blanc <blancw(a)cnw.com> > Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or > crypto" > Stalkers, thieves, rapists, drug addicts, perverts, etc., or just real > animals from the animal kingdom, strike at the most inopportune times, when > there are no officially sanctioned police forces around to be of help. I have to object to the inclusion of drug addicts, they do what they do because the legislators and police want to stick their noses in other peoples business. If drug addicts resort to crime then society as a whole must garner some of the responsibility of putting them in that situation. In short the methods we use to control drug use in this country promote crime. This does not apply to others who would do this anyway and happen to take drugs, which means the drug laws are clearly unreasonable. > something of practical use, and quickly. They could use karate, or > ju-jitsu, or ninja stars, or call their dog to attack, or yell for help, or Isn't killing dogs a bad thing? I am shure my dog thinks so. Perhaps their is a lesson to be had in comparative psychology here. It's much easier to ask another entity to die for you because you consider them different and therefore of less value in the grand scheme of things. Human history is full of such instances. This also happens to be the rationale a lot if not all burglars use to justify their actions as well. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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None (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:04:09 +0200 (MET DST) > Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd) > From: nobody(a)REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) > When all your customers are anonymous, you don't get to be very choosy. Shure you can. The operator offers a simple service, resend email anonymously. If the result of that email is the anon user bringing hardship on the remailer cancel their account. If they do it again, cancel it again. Such is the woes of a commercial remailer. Outside of that, if they don't like the fact that I won't do other things for them when they are anonymous that is too bad. Like I said, I offer specific services with specific goals for a specific fee. If the results are not what you wanted, too bad. You want my other services then you'll have to give up the anonymity because I need a certain level of security that dealing with anonymous customers simply can't provide. I would operate a commercial remailer, I would limit my services to keeping the remailer up and the accounts valid so long as the money flowed in from the users, period. I don't do dedicated lines, security audits, development, etc. to anonymous customers. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto" (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 16:47:32 -0400 > From: Anonymous <anon(a)anon.efga.org> > Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto" > The only conclusion that can be drawn is that civilians, even armed > civilians with combat experience, are so overwhelmingly peace loving > that they will bend very far backwards to avoid trouble, even if it > means thousands of hours of work. Can the same be said of career > military or government people? A D E C L A R A T I O N By the REPRESENTATIVES of the U N I T E D S T A T E S O F A M E R I C A, In GENERAL CONGRESS assembled. [deleted material] Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. [deleted material] ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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RE: counter-intuitive -- spam is good for you. anonymous assholes are your friend
by Phillip Hallam-Baker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Thursday, October 02, 1997 11:54 AM, Attila T. Hun [SMTP:attila@hun.org] wrote: > if Phill is secure, what difference does it make if you assault > him? my guess is he is not secure, and probably has no clue how > to get from there to secure. Because when you ring the alarm bell on my system it is answered by law enforcement and it costs about $10,000 a time to deal with the issue. Setting off fire alarms costs real money. Incidentally the security line you are pushing is a crock. To get real security I believe you have to have feedback and monitoring. This is especially important in an institutional setting where you may not have complete control of critical infrastructure. For my application simply hoping the guys with the white hats find security holes before those in the black ones do is simply not enough. In any case I'm not as complacent as Attila seems to think the security model has been amply reviewed by the best in the field. Threatening to catch the malefactor and put him behind bars is a valuable additional security tool. The more bad guys there are behind bars the less time I have to spend worrying. Phill

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Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:33:00 -0400 > From: Anonymous <anon(a)anon.efga.org> > Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd) > Jim Choate: > > >For the sender to chain from remailer to remailer to destination the > >destination has to be in the header info somewhere. Now in the most secure > >system each packet header will only contain the address of the next hop. When > >the next site gets it the packet contents are de-crypted (otherwise reading > >the chaining info is trivial) and the contents are uncovered to reveal another > >packet with the next hop header and another encrypted block. And on and on > >we go. > > > ><Question: Are there any remailer sets that impliment the encrypted nested > > packet system?> > > Jim Choate has been amazingly clueless throughout this discussion, but > this takes the cake. Does he really not know about encrypted nested > chaining? My God! Of course remailers work this way, Jim. They've > worked this way practically from the beginning. All remailers work this > way. No they don't, all remailers do not encrypt their outgoing as a matter of course (do any currently do it as a matter of course? I would bet not if I were a gambler). The remailer you used to send this didn't use encryption on its outgoing or else I wouldn't be able to read it. The last time I looked about a year ago the vast majority of remailers didn't encrypt their outgoing traffic as a matter of course, it required the user to do it (I suspect this is still true). Furthermore I specificaly used the word 'set' to mean a group of remailers acting in concert such that this encryption happened automaticaly - I know the answer already - No, there are no sets (ie a cooperative network) of remailers (Mixmaster operaters included) implimenting this unless the user goes to extreme and does it all themselves. As a matter of fact there appears to be little to no cooperation between remailer operators. There are no remailer key servers to manage the server and user keys so the user must contact each remailer and obtain the key which is itself open to traffic analysis, note that such first contacts by definition have to be in the clear. Hope that Mallet starts their analysis AFTER you get your keys or else. If this process can't occur automagicaly there is little commercial utility for the system - it's too cumbersome. > The mixmaster remailers are built around this idea, making each > packet a constant size and adding dummy packets as new ones are stripped > off, so outgoing messages look just like incoming ones. First off, the size of the packets in no way effects the succes of a traffic analysis, only a cryptanalysis of their contents. Traffic analysis looks at four things: the incoming packet header, the outgoing packet header, and the times of receipt and transmission. The idea behind latency is that if it is chosen correctly and the packet re-transmission falls outside the analysis window there is no way to correlate the incoming and outgoing traffic. From the analysis engines perspective the events are distinct and non-related. Simply re-ordering the packets at re-transmission time does nothing if I set the window larger than the time it takes to resend the original traffic and the cover traffic. Setting the analysis window to infinity also causes the analysis overhead to grow quickly though this means that re-ordering and latency are irrelevant. A party implimenting traffic analysis is probably not going to look at the contents until they have a clear understanding of the traffic flow between the surveiled parties. At that point it is cheaper to look at the involved parties and see if one of them has a weakness that can be exploited (ie offer immunity to a herion addict) over doing actual expensive cryptanalysis. If you can subvert a member you are in the classic man-in-the-middle position. When the Austin Cpunks looked at Mixmaster about 1.5 years ago for several months it became clear that as implimented currently Mixmaster can't easily support public remailer key servers or automated non-user-involved chaining and processing (encryption & decryption). Shure the packets look the same, but unless you as the sender go in and manage that material you are shit out of luck. The remailers can't do it themselves without user intervention, that's economicly not viable. > ><speculation: an encrypted chain could be made stronger if the next > > hop header depended on which key was used to decode it. > > In other words, remailer A's key will produce one next hop > > address while remailer B's key will send it elsewhere. This > > is a subset of the different plaintext - same cyphertext > > problem - a hard problem as I understand it. Find two > > distinct texts that encrypt with different keys to the > > same cyphertext> > > That won't help. There would be no point in doing this. I'd ask you > to explain, but that would just prolong the agony. It is actualy quite simple why you would want to do this. You could then in effect send the same packet (identical in every bit) to a set of remailers. Each remailer would then decode the packet and send it on. All but one would go to bogus addresses and the one remailer with the right key would get to resend to the next remailer(s). Plus none of the outgoing traffic would be to the same server, further complicating analysis. This also gives the user some control over how much cover traffic gets generated. However Mallet doesn't know which packets are which and therefore must follow every packet. This multiplies the number of hops in the traffic analysis that need to be analyzed. As mentioned in one of my previous posts, in this situation the complexity goes up by a power causing the required computing resources to trace the traffic to quickly become excessive. Sine this is so painful for you, I assume this is the end of this discussion. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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None (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 04:05:48 +0200 (MET DST) > Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash > From: nobody(a)REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) > A pinging system can be set up to verify that all the remailers are > operating correctly. It will certaily tell you if the system is network aware, as to internal operation and its validity it says nothing. If you want to test it you must send each remailer in the network a message with a final destination of the source. If you don't get it back you know the remailer is not online. This is called a 'loopback'. > Thus forwarding within the remailer network is free, So as long as I only send traffic to other remailers the electricity and such are not charged? How does my local electric company measure this? If the remailer is turned on there is a cost. Unless you are getting charged by the packet the cost of operating is indipenant of the traffic until you have to increase your clogged pipe. Commercialy irrelevant approach. > insert new messages. This scheme is a little more flexible than attaching > ecash to each message because you can arrange any type of fee schedule you > like, such as a flat rate per month. But it doesn't pay for the cover traffic. It also short changes the man-in-the-middle remailers since they have to spend resources without getting recompensed. This would indicate that there is little financial motive to operate a remailer that deals only with other remailers. > There's also the reverse of this, where remailers accept from anyone, but > only send to other remailers. Thus you have to pay to get your messages > out of the remailer network. This is more restrictive because the payment > must be anonymous. So what keeps me from submitting message after message and never pulling them out? I guess you just keep paying the bills to pay for the increasing traffic and the need to increase your pipe to carry it. Commercialy irrelevant. Also, consider the exponential expansion from cover traffic. > Sign up with an ISP that offers alt.anonymous.messages. This one is a > no-brainer. (and profitable for the ISP) > > This results in a system where sending messages is essentially free (since > free remailers exist) but it costs money to receive them. So far it seems > to be successful, at least for those who pay a flat fee for usenet access. So what if I use a free-net or perhaps one of the free machines at the public library or at the local college? Or the system at work? ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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And with the money you save on rent, you can...
by The Same Guy 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

* A Washington Post report in March on prison corruption in Mexico revealed that drug traffickers supposedly under maximum security actually have "spacious rooms, cooks and maids, cellular phones, a gymnasium, a sauna, and manicured gardens where they host barbecues," among other things. And in May, the New York Times revealed that a federal jail in Brooklyn has been run as a "Mafia social club," where family business "sit-downs" featured smuggled-in meatballs, manicotti, vodka, and wine. And in May, imprisoned Gangster Disciple leader Larry Hoover was convicted in Chicago of running a vast prison drug operation in which he typically issued memos and gave orders by cellular phone while wearing $400 alligator boots and eating specially prepared food in his cell. To read these News of the Weird newspaper columns from the past six months, go to http://www.nine.org/notw/notw.html (That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no audio. Just text. Deal with it.)

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Kitsch!
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- - From the "Unberable Lightness of Being" by Milan Kundera. Part Six, "The Grand March" Section 6 Sabina's initial inner revolt against Communism was aesthetic rather than ethical in character. What repelled her was not nearly so much the ugliness of the Communist world (ruined castles transformed into cow sheds) as the mask of beauty it tried to wear - in other words, Communist kitsch. The model of Communist kitsch is the ceremony called May Day. She had seen May Day parades during the time when people were still enthusiastic or still did their best to feign enthusiasnm. The women all wore red, white, adn blue blouses, and the public, looking on from balconies and windows, could make out various five-pointed stars, hearts, and letters when the marchers went into formation. Small brass bands accompanied the individual groups, keeping everyone in step. As a group approached the reviewing stand, even the most blase faces would beam with dazzling smiles, as if trying to prove they were properly joyful or, to be more precise, in proper agreement. Nor were they merely expressing political agreement with Communism; no, theirs was an agreement with being as such. The May Day ceremony drew its inspiration from the deep well of the categorical agreement with being. The unwritten, unsung motto of the parade was not "Long live Communism!" but "Long live life!" The power and cunning of Communist politics lay in the fact that it appropriated this slogan. For it was this idiotic tautology ("Long live life!") which attracted people indifferent to the theses of Communism to the Communist parade. Section 7 Ten years later (by which time she was living in America), a friend of some friends, an American senator, took Sabina for a drive in his gigantic car, his four children bouncing up and down in the back. The senator stopped the car in front of a stadium with an artificial skating rink, and the children jumped out and started running along the large expanse of grass surrounding it. Sitting behind the wheel and gazing dreamily after the four little bounding figures, he said to Sabina, "Just look at them." And describing a circle with his arm, a circle that was meant to take in stadium, grass, and children, he added, "Now, that's what I call happiness." Behind his words there was more than joy at seeing children run and grass grow; there was a deep understanding of the plight of a refugee from a Communist country where, the senator was convinced, no grass grew and no children ran. At that moment an image of the senator standing on a reviewing stand in a Prague square flashed through Sabina's mind. The smile on his face was the smile Communist statesmen beamed from the height of their reviewing stand to the identically smiling citizens in the parade below. Section 8 How did the senator know that children meant happiness? Could he see into their souls? What if, the moment they were out of sight, three of them jumped the fourth and began beating him up? The senator had only one argument in his favor: his feeling. When the heart speaks, the mind finds it indecent to object. In the realm of kitsch, the dictatorship of the heart reigns supreme. The feeling induced by kitsch must be a kind the multitudes can share. Kitsch may not, therefore, depend on an unusual situation; it must derive from the basic images people have engraved in their memories: the ungrateful daughter, the neglected father, children running on the grass, the motherland betrayed, first love. Kitsch causes two tears to flow in quick succession. The first tear says: How nice to see children running on the grass! The second tear says: How nice to be moved, together with all mankind, by children running on the grass! It is the second tear that makes kitsch kitsch. The brotherhood of man on earth will be possible only on a base of kitsch. Section 9 And no one knows this better than politicians. Whenever a camera is in the offing, they immediately run to the nearest child, lift it in the air, kiss it on the cheek. Kitsch is the aesthetic ideal of all politicians and all political parties and movements. Those of us who live in a society where various political tendencies exist side by side and competing influences cancel or limit one another can manage more or less to escape the kitsch inquisition: the individual can preserve his individuality; the artist can create unusual works. But whenever a single political movement corners power, we find ourselves in the realm of totalitarian kitsch. When I say "totalitarian," what I mean is that everything that infringes on kitsch must be banished for life: every display of individualism (because a deviation from the collective is a spit in the eye of the smiling brotherhood); every doubt (because anyone who starts doubting details will end by doubting life itself); all irony (because in the realm of kitsch everything must be taken quite seriously); and the mother who abandons her family or the man who prefers men to women, thereby calling into question the holy decree "Be fruitful and multiply." In this light, we can regard the gulag as a septic tank used by totalitarian kitsch to dispose of its refuse. Section 10 The decade immediately following the Second World War was a time of the most horrible Stalinist terror. It was the time when Tereza's father was arrested on some piddling charge and ten-year-old Tereza was thrown out of their flat. It was also the time when twenty-year-old Sabina was studying at the Academy of Fine Arts. There, her professor of Marxism expounded on the following theory of socialist art: Soviet society had made such progress that the basic conflict was no longer between good and evil but between good and better. So shit (that is, whatever is essentially unacceptable) could exist only "on the other side" (in America, for instance), and only from there, from the outside, as something alien (a spy, for instance), could it penetrate the world of "good and better." And in fact, Soviet films, which flooded the cinemas of all Communist countries in that cruelest of times, were saturated with incredible innocence and chastity. The greatest conflict that could occur between two Russians was a lovers' misunderstanding: he thought she no longer loved him; she thought he no longer loved her. But in the final scene they would fall into each other's arms, tears of happiness trickling down their cheeks. The current conventional interpretation of these films is this: that they showed the Communist ideal, whereas Communist reality was worse. Sabina always rebelled against that interpretation. Whenever she imagined the world of Soviet kitsch becoming a reality, she felt a shiver run down her back. She would unhesitatingly prefer life in a real Communist regime with all its persecution and meat queues. Life in the real Communist world was still livable. In the world of the Communist ideal made real, in that world of grinning idiots, she would have nothing to say, she would die of horror within a week. The feeling Soviet kitsch evoked in Sabina strikes me as very much like the horror Tereza experienced in her dream of being marched around a swimming pool with a group of naked women and forced to sing cheerful songs with them while corpses floated just below the surface of the pool. Tereza could not address a single question, a single word, to any of the women; the only response she would have got was the next stanza of the current song. She could not even give any of them a secret wink; they would immediately have pointed her out to the man standing in the basket above the pool, and he would have shot her dead. Tereza's dream reveals the true function of kitsch: kitsch is a folding screen set up to curtain off death. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNDRQjT7jyGKQlFZpAQFY2wf+OVzGMbHNobPuwJERYJm5NWVUicscI+8I k+6GI7tHbj+g5XnKU8xCjB6k69AFTWTP9YOC4M6+WUsQx17BrbKd6rlZIQ95xh8o aleWPsdsESFgarGO6PV7496I8xl6BXixqiySHCkUlZ7YQXsTMFknGO/81ndrJqMU UgZLGIem6CMkc8qAOvwa6bd3N8qvv8ShBFnkYZ+8SFWC3I5EhCARLYjlijhVYqcK EPnBZVmKcpP6ojOxCWiKzARh1Z66y1Xf+GBdsRCYrHU7NoUfqqo9quMyNFX6eM7u AehRJZ7rOG30mhWcRfuCrT++uGKOFfKUsWLDJIzG/4mkEmhU9801GQ== =qoeS -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Traffic Analysis
by Robert A. Costner 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I'm curious about traffic analysis capability. While I don't know the exact figures involved, I'd say that Cracker throws away about 10% of the messages it receives. Admittedly, these are probably not encrypted messages (I don't know. Humans do not get to read the messages.) Does this make traffic analysis more difficult? On the other side, if Cracker were to send out more messages that it takes in, or just replace these thrown away messages with random noise messages, perhaps encrypted, would this foil traffic analysis? Or suppose Redneck sent each nym an encrypted message each day, or more often? This would be a pure nonsense message just sent out to foil traffic analysis. Since the server generated the nonsense message internally, there would be no matching incoming message for Redneck. -- Robert Costner Phone: (770) 512-8746 Electronic Frontiers Georgia mailto:pooh@efga.org http://www.efga.org/ run PGP 5.0 for my public key

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Not that I'm a troublemaker...
by Tim W. May 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

THE CLASSIC MIDDLE NAME (continued) * In Alabama, murderer Billy Wayne Waldrop was executed in January, and the next month, murderer Dudley Wayne Kyzer was turned down for parole. Two weeks later, murderer Coleman Wayne Gray was executed in Virginia. In May, murderer Larry Wayne White was executed in Texas. In July, Maryland inmate Richard Wayne Willoughby was sentenced to life in prison for killing another inmate. And once again this April 19, the nation was reminded that the Oklahoma City bombing date commemorated not only the seige at Waco, but the 1995 Arkansas execution of murderer and militia hero Richard Wayne Snell. AUTHENTICITY: All news stories mentioned in News of the Weird are from news stories appearing in daily newspapers in the U. S. and Canada (or occasionally, reputable daily newspapers in other countries or other reputable magazines and journals). No so-called supermarket tabloid, and no story that was not intended to be "news," is ever the source of a News of the Weird story.

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