December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Cuba and AP
by Hallam-Baker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

If people want to see the effect of an AP society have a look at Cuba. Under the Batista regime $50 was sufficient to have someone killed. There was anarchy, the police were corrupt, the mafia ran most of the few parts of the country that worked - even they found the lack of order a problem. The result was Fidel Castro. The Batista regime could neither reform nor survive. Any society that was threatened by AP would likewise collapse. It is important to distinguish liberty and libertines. The libertine recognises no check on individual rights, even when they affect the rights of others. The inevitable result of libertinage is authoritarianism. Phill

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Bell case and the liability of information...
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text X-Sender: pswire(a)pop.service.ohio-state.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 09:54:35 -0400 Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications <CYBERIA-L(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM> Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications <CYBERIA-L(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM> From: Peter Swire <swire.1(a)OSU.EDU> Subject: Re: America Online and liability for dissemination of informatio To: CYBERIA-L(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM At 09:23 PM 4/6/97 -0700, Bob Stock wrote: >Someone said: >>>Look at it this way: what if this anonymous one had gone to his >>>local library, went through the newspapers and collected >>>classified ad forms. Then sent them all in, publishing >>>classifieds which said the same thing in 20 newspapers across the >>>country. > >>the newspapers which published those ads would have >>potential liability if they were negligent in their fact checking >>before publishing them. > >Newspapers are legally required to check the facts of classified ads >before publishing them in order to escape any potential libel >liability? You can't be serious. Sorry. Check out the cases that Soldier of Fortune magazine lost for failing to check its classified ads. The cases involved "gun for hire" classifieds, someone got shot, and the estate was permitted to sue the magazine. The tort analysis used a Hand test, in which the cost of screening the classified (on its face an invitation to commit a deadly crime) was found to be less than the cost to society of allowing the magazine to run such ads. The facts of SOF are very special, but they show at least one scenario where courts have found liability for running a classified ad. Regards, Peter Prof. Peter Swire Ohio State University College of Law e-mail: swire.1(a)osu.edu web: http://www.osu.edu/units/law/swire.htm (in early stages of construction) --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

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(Fwd) Re: AP Revisited
by Charles Anthony 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 11:48:48 -0400 From: Hallam-Baker <hallam(a)ai.mit.edu> To: Kent Crispin <kent(a)songbird.com>, cypherpunks(a)toad.com Subject: Re: AP Revisited I think its quite wrong to see Clinton as someone who believes in the authoritarian position, the real problem is he cuts his cloth according to the popular whim. Think again. Clinton and his administration are rabid when it comes to cryopto policy and the expansion of the FBI and others ability to pry into the lives of innocent citizens.. The draft of the crypto legislation is a good example of how, when given an opportunity to act out of the general public's sight and grasp, he's in there seeking even more ridiculously easy ways to get into everybodies business. I mean the current draft requires only a govt request in order to obtain access to your email. NOT a court ordered/appproved warrant- They may as well ask to be allowed to open and read every letter and pkg at the post office too.(and if this draft becomes law they probably will) All of these 'new' and neccessary' intrusions are Clinton proposals, not hold overs from some other admininstration. If he were opposed in principle he could certainly 'cut his cloth' along less authoratarian lines, following the lead of many of the administrations own committee reports that have come out against key escrow plans, but he will not budge on the issue. In fact, each time it is put back out there it gets worse. Clinton's ability to coopt left energy and appear to be less than he is is- earning appologistic comments like the one above- is what is really frightening. When it comes to US citizens civil liberties, Clinton is more dangerous than Reagan and Bush put together and I wouldn't call either of them friends of the people. Since it has been thrown around so much, remember that Hitler was a most powerful speaker, who connected well with the masses, couching nazi policy in the terms that gave the people what they wanted to hear. They too thought he was a most sincere and earnest fellow, with only the good of the country at heart. A 'Nixon' would never get away with this sort of proposal- but a telegenic, non-enhaling, sax playing, mcdonalds eating, aw shucks, (they lay it on thick you think?) well meaning bubba? --C ********************************************************************** Charles Anthony canthony(a)info-nation.com http://www.info-nation.com -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3a mQBtAzM63W8AAAEDAMRi15+AIXC0j2R7IrdeNhM7AQXPGAYAd2mCNhKrQa09fICZ 4jEpTd0biV+3nMAL6/6pWUm1AmFPS/FngecmXkrmMPlbgv3O0dapbJ2/FQf3XUtH Z5AEOdKL9xK5Ml7dCQAFE7QIY2FudGhvbnmJAHUDBRAzOt1wi/cSuTJe3QkBAemw AwC1DGxodXVPkA1D6uLdqFvP5H3/98i/gM2x9IvvfZscWszwrJuOhkYyd71TF7K5 gy55OqPp+Rf77On0XhmHoi98Y4HOSTHYPhN9o9zQQ+pn/4HmxQ4Tbtih2sCDNvmG b2g= =0pHR -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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Re: AP Revisited
by Lucky Green 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:48 AM 4/7/97 -0400, Hallam-Baker wrote: >I seem to recall that the War on Drugs was a Bush proposal originally. >Dole supported it and as with the CDA I would not expect a single >member of congress to stand up against charges of "drug dealers friend". The War on Drugs was first declared by President Nixon. It has been a failure ever since. -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred "I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence." Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: Helping Prof. Jim Bell
by Hallam-Baker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Secret Squirrel wrote: > > If the FBI story is not yet another hoax, I think that it is > a good diea to call jimbell and maybe donate him some $$ for > lawyers or something like that. I'm not sure sending him money for lawyers would be most helpful. I was thinking another type of profession entirely. Until Jim actually gets charged for something I don't see that freedom of speech is the issue. Jim appears to be in trouble for reasons not associated with his AP rants. The AP manifesto has made it worse and attracted the opinion of the press but it does not appear to have caused his trouble, merely affected the way he was dealt with. AP probably caused there to be 20 heavilly armed cops rather than two unarmed ones. It probably meant that casual comments were taken rather more seriously than otherwise. Bell was always much more wacko off list than on. Phill

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No Subject
by Mix 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Embedded in Tim C[rook] May's babblings are preposterous lies, wild distortions, child pornography (both as graphic descriptions and in JPEG format), ethnic slurs, and racial epithets. \\\\\|///// \\\\|//// < * | * > | * | \( . )/ \___/

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Re: Cuba and AP
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hallam-Baker, counting on cypherpunks readers to be unwitting victims of ten second sound-byte mentality, wrote: > > If people want to see the effect of an AP society have a look at Cuba. > Under the Batista regime $50 was sufficient to have someone killed. > There was anarchy, the police were corrupt, the mafia ran most of the > few parts of the country that worked - even they found the lack of order > a problem. > > The result was Fidel Castro. The Batista regime could neither reform nor > survive. Any society that was threatened by AP would likewise collapse. So Hallam-Baker recognizes the AP system as a valid way to bring about the collapse of unpopular, corrupt dictatorships. > It is important to distinguish liberty and libertines. The libertine > recognises no check on individual rights, even when they affect the > rights of others. The inevitable result of libertinage is > authoritarianism. The result of men living together on the face of the earth leads to the inevitable result of authoritarianism. Systems such as "Assassination Politics" can aide in fighting against unbearable corruption of power by lowering the cost of assassination and thus raising the cost of corruption. The stench in Cuba was so bad under the U.S. backed Batista regime that Guerva and Castro were a breath of fresh air for the majority of Cuban people. Despite years of harassment, invasion, and economic attack on Cuba by the shameless 'free' countries <yuk,yuk> of the world, Castro is still a better option for the Cuban people than other options. When this ceases to be the case, then another variation of the Cuban AP system will arise (perhaps Bell's?), and we will see the rise of a new Cuban government. Despite the grand support the IRS is receiving from the government- owned members of the cypherpunks list, it can hardly be argued that the U.S. government has a problem with "Assassination Politics," since they have availed themselves of it in the past, but only with the power of AP being in the hands of the citizens instead of their own ruling hands. TruthMonger (#7)

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Re: Helping Prof. Jim Bell
by Toto 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hallam-Baker wrote: > Until Jim actually gets charged for something I don't see that > freedom of speech is the issue. > The AP manifesto...merely affected the way he was dealt with. Hallam-Baker is apparently incapable of understanding his own trail of logic. He tells us that freedom of speech is not the issue, and then proceeds to tell us that Jim Bell was dealt with differently than others for exercising his freedom of speech. Now perhaps he can explain to us how race issues are not involved when cops beat the living crap out of niggers when arresting them for traffic violations. ("Until the nigger in intensive care 'gets charged with something' I don't see that race is an issue.") -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html

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Re: Helping Prof. Jim Bell
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Although I don't disagree with Phill in general, I note from the IRS agent's affidavit that the reason given for searching his house was they thought he was gonna do the AP thing after all. So AP does appear to have caused if not all his troubles, at least the ones from last week. -Declan At 3:17 PM -0400 4/7/97, Hallam-Baker wrote: > >Until Jim actually gets charged for something I don't see that >freedom of speech is the issue. Jim appears to be in trouble >for reasons not associated with his AP rants. The AP manifesto >has made it worse and attracted the opinion of the press but it >does not appear to have caused his trouble, merely affected the >way he was dealt with. > >AP probably caused there to be 20 heavilly armed cops rather than >two unarmed ones. It probably meant that casual comments were >taken rather more seriously than otherwise. Bell was always much >more wacko off list than on. > > > Phill ------------------------- Time Inc. The Netly News Network Washington Correspondent http://netlynews.com/

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New Paper by Ron Rivest
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam(a)ai.mit.edu> To: "Micropay (E-mail)" <micropay(a)ai.mit.edu> Subject: New Paper by Ron Rivest Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:18:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-micropay(a)ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: micropay(a)ai.mit.edu Ron Rivest has just added a new paper on Micropayments to his Web site: Electronic Lottery Tickets as Micropayments (rump session talk given at the Financial Cryptography '97 conference) http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/publications.html Its in Postscript, perhaps when the HTML Math proposal finally appears... (Three years and counting so far). Phill Phillip M. Hallam-Baker Visitng Scientist MIT Laboratory for Artificial Intelligence. hallam(a)ai.mit.edu http://www.ai.mit.edu/people/hallam/hallam.html --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

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Re: Wassenaar Arrangement now available
by Toto 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Greg Broiles wrote: > In early March, I filed a FOIA request with the Arms Control & Disarmament > Agency, a division of the Department of State, for a copy of the Wassenaar > Arrangement, a multinational agreement which is intended to regulate and > coordinate the regulation of military and "dual-use" items. (Cryptographic > software and hardware is often considered a "dual-use" item.) > > I received a copy of the Arrangement last week, and have converted it to > HTML. It is available on the web at > > <http://www.parrhesia.com/wassenaar/>, or > <https://www.parrhesia.com/wassenaar/> for the security-conscious. > > The document itself does not refer to cryptography or cryptographic > software/hardware. The last page of the document - the "Munitions List" was > blank; but the document was marked "released in full". I'm going to compare > what I've got with the various pieces of the Arrangement which have been > released through other sources to see if I need to make a supplemental > request for more information. The disparity between various informational 'releases' of information surrounding the Wassenaar Agreement points to the real intentions of those involved, which is to regulate the availability to strong crypto not so much through legislation, as through uncertainty surrounding legal issues which can result in severe penalties to those who might chance to cross ill-defined legal lines. In a previous post, I mentioned a law enforcement official who responded to my question about one of the finer points of the law with the reply, "I'm not paid to 'know' the law, I'm paid to 'enforce' it." i.e. No matter what action you perform, the interpretation that the government uses to fuck you in the ass will take an opposite position on the matter. I have seen back-to-back cases in the same courtroom, with the same judge, where government prosecutors argued diametrically opposed positions in order to convict the accused. The result? Two convictions. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html

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Re: Cypherpunks FAQ
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"Timothy C. May" <tcmay(a)got.net> writes: > * First, calling for _others_ to write a FAQ, or to "collectively" write a > FAQ, rarely works. (I'm not criticizing Paul, just noting historical truth.) > > * Second, many FAQs have been started, few have been finished. An excellent FAQ from L.Deitweller was shot down by Timmy May and his cronies precisely because Timmy was envious of LD's ability to do what Timmy couldn't do. <blah, blah, blah> --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Fan mail from Hallam-Baker...
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Sender: hallam(a)etna.ai.mit.edu >Message-Id: <334920D5.ABD(a)ai.mit.edu> >Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 12:29:09 -0400 >From: Hallam-Baker <hallam(a)ai.mit.edu> >X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; OSF1 V4.0 alpha) >Mime-Version: 1.0 >To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" <dlv(a)bwalk.dm.com> >Subject: Re: I hope thr IRA nails Hallam-Baker... >References: <5i4971$iug(a)life.ai.mit.edu> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >You are now in very serious trouble. > >I have contacted the FBI and other agencies. You will encounter >difficulty in travelling to certain foreign countries. > >You may have put your own life at risk. The IRA is not the only >terrorist group in Ireland, its opponents make a point of assasinating >anyone who openly supports IRA activities. > > Phill. Paul, or someone in U.K. - I'd like to donate $1 to the IRA every time Hallam-Baker posts to this mailing list. Can someone please tell me a convenient way to send them donations? Thank you very much.

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Re: Helping Prof. Jim Bell
by Timothy C. May 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 5:01 PM -0600 4/7/97, Toto wrote: > Hallam-Baker is apparently incapable of understanding his own >trail of logic. > He tells us that freedom of speech is not the issue, and then >proceeds to tell us that Jim Bell was dealt with differently than >others for exercising his freedom of speech. Look, we know Jim Bell the writer. (Some people have met him and know him as Jim Bell the loon, according to their assessments here, but that's a different, though possibly relevant, point.) An error many are making here is to assume that Bell was searched because of his "Bell the writer" personna. This is clearly incorrect. The search warrants dealt with many issues, as have been detailed in several posts here, and in the stuff Greg Broiles put up in scanned format. Assuming that his writings here were the cause of the actions against him is just plain incorrect. His writings may have affected the assessment of "likelihood" and "intent," given the various other things, but how else should it be? One's spoken or written words may indeed be protected by the First, against prior restraint and censorship, but they can generally be used, if available. In my posts I've carefully avoided evaluating whether Bell will be found guilty of any actual crime...I don't know the evidence, or the legal code, well enough. I _have_ said that I don't find it _surprising" that the Feds would think him a plausible threat, at least worthy of a search. They may read his rants and ultimately decide his threats were not plausible. They may decide the chances of conviction aren't good. Who knows? Bell himself said he was not surprised. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: Bot-generated insults
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Ray Arachelian <sunder(a)brainlink.com> writes: > It figures you wouldn't know any other language than BASIC, and nadly ^^^?? > written basic at that. I've seen better code written by chimpanzees. If Ray "Arsen" Arachelian can work for Earthweb, LLP, as an "associate network adiministrator", then I'm not surprised if they have chimpanzees writing Java code as well. I used to think that LISP is the best language for such apps, but wouldn't debase it by writing a simulation of a dandruff-covered Armenian in it. **************************************************************************** (DEF 'randomize '(LAMBDA () (SETQ RSEED (DTIME)) (SETQ RSEED (- RSEED (* 12345(/ RSEED 12345)))))) (DEF 'random '(LAMBDA (s) (SETQ RSEED (+ RSEED 911)) (COND ((GT RSEED 15000) (SETQ RSEED (- RSEED 15000)))) (+ 1 (- RSEED (* s (/ RSEED s)))) )) ~ (DEF 'statement '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 020)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC "Let the games begin!")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC "Sweet Jesus!")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC "Not that!")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC "At last!")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC "Land O' Goshen!")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC "Is that all?")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC "Is it in?")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC "Cheese it, the cops!")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC "I never dreamed it could be like this!")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC "If I do, you won't respect me!")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC "Oh my God!")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC "Now!")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC "Open Sesame!")) ((EQ R 014) (PRINC "Pomade!")) ((EQ R 015) (PRINC "Harder!")) ((EQ R 016) (PRINC "Faster!")) ((EQ R 017) (PRINC "Again!")) ((EQ R 018) (PRINC "Help!")) ((EQ R 019) (PRINC "Ay de mi!")) ((EQ R 020) (PRINC "Deeper!")) ))) (DEF 'said '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 018)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC " cried")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC " bellowed")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC " yelped")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC " croaked")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC " growled")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC " panted")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC " moaned")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC " grunted")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC " laughed")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC " warbled")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC " sighed")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC " ejaculated")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC " whispered")) ((EQ R 014) (PRINC " stammered")) ((EQ R 015) (PRINC " wheezed")) ((EQ R 016) (PRINC " squealed")) ((EQ R 017) (PRINC " whimpered")) ((EQ R 018) (PRINC " pleaded")) ))) (DEF 'girl '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 011)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC "saucy baggage")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC "wanton hussy")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC "unfortunate woman")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC "lust-crazed duchess")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC "female impersonator")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC "nine-year-old nymphomaniac")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC "45-year-old virgin bull-dyke")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC "leather freak")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC "home-cumming queen")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC "defrocked nun")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC "bisexual budgie")) ))) (DEF 'adj-1 '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 014)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC "thrashing")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC "slurping")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC "insatiable")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC "rabid")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC "satanic")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC "corpulent")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC "nose-grooming")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC "tripe-fondling")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC "dribbling")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC "spread-eagled")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC "orally fixated")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC "vile")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC "awesomely endowed")) ((EQ R 014) (PRINC "strapping")) ))) (DEF 'boy '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 020)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC " rakehell")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC " black panther")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC " hunchback")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC " friar")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC " archduke")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC " midget")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC " great dane")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC " stallion")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC " donkey")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC " electric eel")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC " lecherous")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC " lickspittle")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC " faggot butler")) ((EQ R 014) (PRINC " paraplegic")) ((EQ R 015) (PRINC " pothead")) ((EQ R 016) (PRINC " dirty old man")) ((EQ R 017) (PRINC " black-power advocate")) ((EQ R 018) (PRINC " follicle fetishist")) ((EQ R 019) (PRINC " egg-sucking chicken flicker")) ((EQ R 020) (PRINC " hired hand")) ))) (DEF 'verb-1 '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 011)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC " plundered")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC " diddled")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC " devoured")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC " fondled")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC " mouthed")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC " tongued")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC " lashed")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC " tweaked")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC " violated")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC " defiled")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC " irrigated")) ))) (DEF 'adj-2 '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 012)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC "alabaster")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC "pink-tipped")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC "creamy")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC "rosebud")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC "moist")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC "throbbing")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC "juicy")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC "heaving")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC "straining")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC "mammoth")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC "succulent")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC "quivering")) ))) (DEF 'tits '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 013)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC " schnoobies")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC " globes")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC " melons")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC " mounds")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC " buds")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC " paps")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC " chubbies")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC " protruberances")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC " treasures")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC " bum")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC " bung")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC " vestibule")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC " armpits")) ))) (DEF 'verb-2 '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 011)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC "plunged")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC "thrust")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC "squeezed")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC "pounded")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC "drove")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC "eased")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC "slid")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC "hammered")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC "squished")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC "crammed")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC "slammed")) ))) (DEF 'adj-3 '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 018)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC "bursting")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC "jutting")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC "glistening")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC "brobdingnagian")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC "prodigious")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC "purple")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC "searing")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC "swollen")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC "rigid")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC "rampaging")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC "warty")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC "steaming")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC "gorged")) ((EQ R 014) (PRINC "trunklike")) ((EQ R 015) (PRINC "foaming")) ((EQ R 016) (PRINC "spouting")) ((EQ R 017) (PRINC "swinish")) ((EQ R 018) (PRINC "red-hot")) ))) (DEF 'prick '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 024)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC " prosthesis")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC " intruder")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC " prong")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC " stump")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC " member")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC " meatloaf")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC " majesty")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC " bowsprit")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC " earthmover")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC " jackhammer")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC " ramrod")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC " cod")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC " jabber")) ((EQ R 014) (PRINC " gusher")) ((EQ R 015) (PRINC " engine")) ((EQ R 016) (PRINC " brownie")) ((EQ R 017) (PRINC " joy stick")) ((EQ R 018) (PRINC " plunger")) ((EQ R 019) (PRINC " piston")) ((EQ R 020) (PRINC " tool")) ((EQ R 021) (PRINC " manhood")) ((EQ R 022) (PRINC " lollipop")) ((EQ R 023) (PRINC " kidney prodder")) ((EQ R 043) (PRINC " device")) ))) (DEF 'adj-4 '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 010)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC "pulsing")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC "hungry")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC "hymeneal")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC "palpitating")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC "gaping")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC "slavering")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC "welcoming")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC "glutted")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC "gobbling")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC "cobwebby")) ))) (DEF 'cunt '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 017)) (COND ((EQ R 001) (PRINC " swamp")) ((EQ R 002) (PRINC " honeypot")) ((EQ R 003) (PRINC " jam jar")) ((EQ R 004) (PRINC " butterbox")) ((EQ R 005) (PRINC " furburger")) ((EQ R 006) (PRINC " cherry pie")) ((EQ R 007) (PRINC " cush")) ((EQ R 008) (PRINC " slot")) ((EQ R 009) (PRINC " slit")) ((EQ R 010) (PRINC " cockpit")) ((EQ R 011) (PRINC " damp")) ((EQ R 012) (PRINC " furrow")) ((EQ R 013) (PRINC " sanctum sanctorum")) ((EQ R 014) (PRINC " bearded clam")) ((EQ R 015) (PRINC " continental divide")) ((EQ R 016) (PRINC " paradise valley")) ((EQ R 017) (PRINC " wanton desire")) ))) (DEF 'smut '(LAMBDA () (PRINC '\") (statement) (PRINC '\") (said) (PRINC " the ") (girl) (PRINC " as the ") (adj-1) (boy) (verb-1) (PRINC " her ") (adj-2) (tits) (PRINC " and ") (verb-2) (PRINC " his ") (adj-3) (prick) (PRINC " into her ") (adj-4) (cunt) (PRINC ".") (TERPRI) )) (randomize) **************************************************************************** ~Pseudo-random 1 to s (DEF 'randomize '(LAMBDA () (SETQ RSEED (DTIME)) (SETQ RSEED (- RSEED (* 12345(/ RSEED 12345)))))) (DEF 'random '(LAMBDA (s) (SETQ RSEED (+ RSEED 911)) (COND ((GT RSEED 15000) (SETQ RSEED (- RSEED 15000)))) (+ 1 (- RSEED (* s (/ RSEED s)))) )) (DEF 'adj-phrase '(LAMBDA () (PROG () LOOP-adj (SETQ R (random 124)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 001) "stinking") ((EQ R 002) "little") ((EQ R 003) "smelly") ((EQ R 004) "ugly") ((EQ R 005) "bisexual") ((EQ R 006) "deranged") ((EQ R 007) "revolting") ((EQ R 008) "sickening") ((EQ R 009) "disgusting") ((EQ R 010) "perverted") ((EQ R 011) "stupid") ((EQ R 012) "illiterate") ((EQ R 013) "flea-bitten") ((EQ R 014) "depraved") ((EQ R 015) "uncouth") ((EQ R 016) "bad breathed") ((EQ R 017) "pitiful") ((EQ R 018) "dumpy") ((EQ R 019) "offensive") ((EQ R 020) "dim witted") ((EQ R 021) "loathsome") ((EQ R 022) "insignificant") ((EQ R 023) "blithering") ((EQ R 024) "repulsive") ((EQ R 025) "worthless") ((EQ R 026) "blundering") ((EQ R 027) "retarded") ((EQ R 028) "useless") ((EQ R 029) "obnoxious") ((EQ R 030) "low budget") ((EQ R 031) "asisine") ((EQ R 032) "neurotic") ((EQ R 033) "subhuman") ((EQ R 034) "crochety") ((EQ R 035) "indescribable") ((EQ R 036) "contemptible") ((EQ R 037) "unspeakable") ((EQ R 038) "sick") ((EQ R 039) "lazy") ((EQ R 040) "good for nothing)") ((EQ R 041) "slutty") ((EQ R 042) "spastic") ((EQ R 043) "creepy") ((EQ R 044) "sloppy") ((EQ R 045) "dumb") ((EQ R 046) "predictable") ((EQ R 047) "atrocious") ((EQ R 048) "grotesque") ((EQ R 049) "ungodly") ((EQ R 050) "feeble-minded") ((EQ R 051) "clueless") ((EQ R 052) "demented") ((EQ R 053) "bewildered") ((EQ R 054) "outrageous") ((EQ R 055) "deranged") ((EQ R 056) "confused") ((EQ R 057) "miserable") ((EQ R 058) "detestable") ((EQ R 059) "annoying") ((EQ R 060) "shameless") ((EQ R 061) "ignorant") ((EQ R 062) "despicable") ((EQ R 063) "insane") ((EQ R 064) "tiny brained") ((EQ R 065) "oblivious") ((EQ R 066) "hopeless") ((EQ R 067) "god-awful") ((EQ R 068) "bungling") ((EQ R 069) "appalling") ((EQ R 070) "lackluster") ((EQ R 071) "skaggy") ((EQ R 072) "brainless") ((EQ R 073) "boring") ((EQ R 074) "uncultivated") ((EQ R 075) "inadequate") ((EQ R 076) "inhuman") ((EQ R 077) "self-exalting") ((EQ R 078) "testy") ((EQ R 079) "irresponsible") ((EQ R 080) "mentally deficient") ((EQ R 081) "disdainful") ((EQ R 082) "friendless") ((EQ R 083) "dreadfull") ((EQ R 084) "psychotic") ((EQ R 085) "opinionated") ((EQ R 086) "monotonous") ((EQ R 087) "disgraceful") ((EQ R 088) "preposterous") ((EQ R 089) "totally tacky") ((EQ R 090) "uneducated") ((EQ R 091) "rediculous") ((EQ R 092) "double ugly") ((EQ R 093) "irrational") ((EQ R 094) "cranky") ((EQ R 095) "goofy") ((EQ R 096) "crude") ((EQ R 097) "embarrassing") ((EQ R 098) "deeply disturbed)") ((EQ R 099) "inept") ((EQ R 100) "undisciplined") ((EQ R 101) "crooked") ((EQ R 102) "pathetic") ((EQ R 103) "infantile") ((EQ R 104) "witless") ((EQ R 105) "indecent") ((EQ R 106) "infuriating") ((EQ R 107) "unimpressive") ((EQ R 108) "insufferable") ((EQ R 109) "dismal") ((EQ R 110) "erratic") ((EQ R 111) "incapable") ((EQ R 112) "hallucinating") ((EQ R 113) "pompous") ((EQ R 114) "pitiable") ((EQ R 115) "slovenly") ((EQ R 116) "laughable") ((EQ R 117) "bad tempered") ((EQ R 118) "decrepit") ((EQ R 119) "bizarre") ((EQ R 120) "driveling") ((EQ R 121) "uncultured") ((EQ R 122) "cantankerous") ((EQ R 123) "hypocritical") ((EQ R 124) "sleazy"))) (COND ( (LT(random 3) 3) (PRINC ", ") (GO LOOP-adj)) ( T (PRINC " ")) )))) (DEF 'noun '(LAMBDA () (COND ((EQ (random 4) 1) (SETQ R (random 15)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 01) "twit") ((EQ R 02) "bastard") ((EQ R 03) "fool") ((EQ R 04) "idiot") ((EQ R 05) "cretin") ((EQ R 06) "dolt") ((EQ R 07) "moron") ((EQ R 08) "degenerate") ((EQ R 09) "mutant") ((EQ R 09) "asshole") ((EQ R 10) "imbecile") ((EQ R 11) "incompetent") ((EQ R 12) "failure") ((EQ R 13) "noncompoop") ((EQ R 14) "pothead") ((EQ R 15) "wiper of other peoples' behinds")))) (T(SETQ R (random 30)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 01) "lump") ((EQ R 02) "crock") ((EQ R 03) "ball") ((EQ R 04) "mass") ((EQ R 05) "tub") ((EQ R 06) "loaf") ((EQ R 07) "bucket") ((EQ R 08) "mound") ((EQ R 09) "bunch") ((EQ R 10) "stack") ((EQ R 11) "glob") ((EQ R 12) "bag") ((EQ R 13) "heap") ((EQ R 14) "mountain") ((EQ R 15) "load") ((EQ R 16) "toilet full") ((EQ R 17) "barrel") ((EQ R 18) "sack") ((EQ R 19) "blob") ((EQ R 20) "pile") ((EQ R 21) "clump") ((EQ R 22) "shovel full") ((EQ R 23) "cake") ((EQ R 24) "bowl") ((EQ R 25) "wheelbarrel full") ((EQ R 26) "box") ((EQ R 27) "crate") ((EQ R 28) "collection") ((EQ R 29) "truckload") ((EQ R 30) "vat") )) (PRINC " of ") (SETQ R (random 69)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 01) "stale ") ((EQ R 02) "foul ") ((EQ R 03) "fossilized ") ((EQ R 04) "festering ") ((EQ R 05) "steaming ") ((EQ R 06) "gross ") ((EQ R 07) "reasty ") ((EQ R 08) "recycled ") ((EQ R 09) "mildewed ") ((EQ R 10) "raunchy ") ((EQ R 11) "putrid ") ((EQ R 12) "moldy ") ((EQ R 13) "synthetic ") ((EQ R 14) "filthy ") ((EQ R 15) "soppy ") ((EQ R 16) "radioactive ") ((EQ R 17) "infested ") ((EQ R 18) "septic ") ((EQ R 19) "crusty ") ((EQ R 20) "smelly ") ((EQ R 21) "dirty ") ((EQ R 22) "rotten ") ((EQ R 23) "crumby ") ((EQ R 24) "musty ") ((EQ R 25) "second-hand ") ((EQ R 26) "fly-covered ") ((EQ R 27) "imitation ") ((EQ R 28) "moth-eaten ") ((EQ R 29) "pureed ") ((EQ R 30) "decaying ") ((EQ R 31) "decomposed ") ((EQ R 32) "freeze dried ") ((EQ R 33) "soggy ") ((EQ R 34) "petrified ") ((EQ R 35) "seething ") ((EQ R 36) "stinking ") ((EQ R 37) "clammy ") ((EQ R 38) "dehydrated ") ((EQ R 39) "polluted ") ((EQ R 40) "lousy ") ((EQ R 41) "stenchy ") ((EQ R 42) "malignant ") ((EQ R 43) "noxious ") ((EQ R 44) "grimy ") ((EQ R 45) "fusty ") ((EQ R 46) "reeky ") ((EQ R 47) "nasty ") ((EQ R 48) "mutilated ") ((EQ R 49) "sloppy ") ((EQ R 50) "fresh ") ((EQ R 51) "gruesome ") ((EQ R 52) "foreign ") ((EQ R 53) "grisly ") ((EQ R 54) "sloshy ") ((EQ R 55) "dusky ") ((EQ R 56) "wormy ") ((EQ R 57) "mealy ") ((EQ R 58) "defective ") ((EQ R 59) "spoiled ") ((EQ R 60) "contaminated ") ((EQ R 61) "sun-ripened ") ((EQ R 62) "rancid ") ((EQ R 63) "old ") ((EQ R 64) "fermenting ") ((EQ R 65) "industrial-strength ") ((EQ R 66) "flea-bitten ") ((EQ R 67) "nauseating ") ((EQ R 68) "decomposing ") ((EQ R 69) "unimaginable ") )) (SETQ R (random 91)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 01) "pig bowels") ((EQ R 02) "walrus blubber") ((EQ R 03) "dog barf") ((EQ R 04) "coyote snot") ((EQ R 05) "carp guts") ((EQ R 06) "skunk waste") ((EQ R 07) "camel fleas") ((EQ R 08) "llama spit") ((EQ R 09) "rat boogers") ((EQ R 10) "toe jam") ((EQ R 11) "maggot guts") ((EQ R 12) "dog meat") ((EQ R 13) "ear wax") ((EQ R 14) "nose nuggets") ((EQ R 15) "swine remains") ((EQ R 16) "rubbish") ((EQ R 17) "goat carcusses") ((EQ R 18) "sewage") ((EQ R 19) "zit cheese") ((EQ R 20) "vulture gizzards") ((EQ R 21) "hogwash") ((EQ R 22) "navel lint") ((EQ R 23) "gutter mud") ((EQ R 24) "leprousy scabs") ((EQ R 25) "nasal hairs") ((EQ R 26) "garbage") ((EQ R 27) "elephant plaque") ((EQ R 28) "slug slime") ((EQ R 29) "buzzard barf") ((EQ R 30) "jock straps") ((EQ R 31) "parrot droppings") ((EQ R 32) "camel manure") ((EQ R 33) "chicken guts") ((EQ R 34) "underwear") ((EQ R 35) "compost") ((EQ R 36) "pig droppings") ((EQ R 37) "rabbit raisins") ((EQ R 38) "turkey puke") ((EQ R 39) "whale waste") ((EQ R 40) "hippo vomit") ((EQ R 41) "pimple pus") ((EQ R 42) "dog phlegm") ((EQ R 43) "buffalo chips") ((EQ R 44) "weasel warts") ((EQ R 45) "shark snot") ((EQ R 46) "swamp mud") ((EQ R 47) "tripe") ((EQ R 48) "pig hickies") ((EQ R 49) "fish lips") ((EQ R 50) "cockroaches") ((EQ R 51) "dandruff flakes") ((EQ R 52) "rodent droppings") ((EQ R 53) "carrion") ((EQ R 54) "monkey zits") ((EQ R 55) "horse puckies") ((EQ R 56) "pig slop") ((EQ R 57) "sewer seepage") ((EQ R 58) "armpit hairs") ((EQ R 59) "ape puke") ((EQ R 60) "frog fat") ((EQ R 61) "bug parts") ((EQ R 62) "mule froth") ((EQ R 63) "hog livers") ((EQ R 64) "camel flops") ((EQ R 65) "sludge") ((EQ R 66) "pimple squeezings") ((EQ R 67) "toad tumors") ((EQ R 68) "sweat socks") ((EQ R 69) "bat guano") ((EQ R 70) "rat cysts") ((EQ R 71) "moose entrails") ((EQ R 72) "foot fungus") ((EQ R 73) "buzzard leavings") ((EQ R 74) "eel guts") ((EQ R 75) "maggot brains") ((EQ R 76) "sinus clots") ((EQ R 77) "stable sweepings") ((EQ R 78) "drain clogs") ((EQ R 79) "cigar butts") ((EQ R 80) "pigeon bombs") ((EQ R 81) "cow cud") ((EQ R 82) "snake innards") ((EQ R 83) "spitoon spillage") ((EQ R 84) "barf curds") ((EQ R 85) "maggot fodder") ((EQ R 86) "nose pickings") ((EQ R 87) "cow pies") ((EQ R 88) "puke lumps") ((EQ R 89) "hog swill") ((EQ R 90) "sinus drainage") ((EQ R 91) "lizard bums") )) )))) (DEF 'directional-verb '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 5)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 1) "puke") ((EQ R 2) "vomit") ((EQ R 3) "fart") ((EQ R 4) "piss") ((EQ R 5) "shout obscenities"))))) (DEF 'direction '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 3)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 1) " at you") ((EQ R 2) " in your face") ((EQ R 2) " in your general direction"))))) (DEF 'verb-phrase '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 5)) (COND ((EQ R 1) (directional-verb) (direction)) ((EQ R 2) (PRINC "cry")) ((EQ R 3) (PRINC "weep")) ((EQ R 4) (PRINC "scream")) ((EQ R 5) (PRINC "commit gross abominations")) ))) (DEF 'suggestion '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 6)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 1) "crawl back under a rock") ((EQ R 2) "go back whence you came from") ((EQ R 3) "die abd leave us in peace") ((EQ R 4) "go jump in a lake") ((EQ R 5) "take a long walk off a short pier") ((EQ R 6) "do yourself a favor and drop dead") )))) (DEF 'proper-name '(LAMBDA () (SETQ R (random 5)) (PRINC (COND ((EQ R 1) "Alan Turing") ((EQ R 2) "Marvin Minsky") ((EQ R 3) "Douglas Hofstadter") ((EQ R 4) "your best friend") ((EQ R 4) "a large crowd of graduate students")) ))) (DEF 'abuse '(LAMBDA () (PRINC "You ") (adj-phrase) (noun) (PRINC ". ") (SETQ RR (random 4)) (COND ((EQ RR 1) (PRINC "May ") (proper-name) (PRINC " ") (directional-verb) (direction) (PRINC ". ")) ((EQ RR 2) (PRINC "Whenever I see you, I want to ") (verb-phrase) (PRINC ". ")) ((EQ RR 3) (PRINC "Why don't you ") (suggestion) (PRINC ". ")) ((EQ RR 4) (PRINC "Please, ") (suggestion) (PRINC ". ")) ))) (randomize) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

2 2

Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him.
by lucifer＠dhp.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Adam Back wrote: > I see lots of discussion of AP. However I see lots of people > discussing cautiously, couching it in terms of: > game theory, or intellectual possibility > or dismissing it as impractical. > > Perhaps I'm just imagining things, but it would seem to me that if one > had in the past made comments on the list suggesting that AP might > even be a _good thing_, Jim Bell's experience might make one think now > was be a good time to disclaim that one was talking theoretically. Jim *who*??? > I've viewed several posters comments on AP ever since Jim Bell got > involved in discussing anonymous markets in illegal services as being > careful to stay on the side of speech. > It is almost as if they are afraid to discuss openly their views on > the subject. This doesn't stop them from castigating those who post anonymously in regard to this subject. (As if not wanting to face 20 armed government agents who consider you "armed and dangerous" {i.e. shoot first and ask questions later} somehow negates their facts and logic.) > Democracy is one person one vote, however this is skewed in most > democracies by numerous factors: corporate lobbying, media influence, > and people who are easily influenced by media. > > AP is one $ one vote. Theoretically rich people could out-vote their > rivals. So the end result might well be, not the assassination of those involved, but the lessening of their power by virtue of depleting their funds, which leads to a more equal playing field. > Game theoretically: AP may be a good thing for you personally if the > reduction in power of groups targetted by AP bets was beneficial > enough to you to cancel out the negative aspects of you yourself being > targetted, and the negative aspects of living in the resulting > society. Green Peace might serve as a good example of this. A sufficient number of individuals contributing small amounts to the pool might not be able to negate the total funds available to whaling companies, but they might be able to impact the profit margin sufficiently that they would not be able to extinct the species. > I'm not too sure what the outcome would be. All sorts of people might get > targetted by all kinds of unanticipated groups of the populace. Will the > mafia join the fray, and offer insurance against having a contract taken out > on yourself? Will the government join in and take out hits on GAK > dissenters and free speech activists? Will corporations get rid of > embarassing whistleblowers? Will irritating media starlets get offed? > > We have no way of knowing whether the outcome would be "a good thing" by any > chosen metric. But the results would be a far cry more interesting than reruns of Gilligan's Island. TruthMonger (#7 - the 'sane' one)

4 3

ElGamal
by lucifer＠dhp.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tim C[ocksucker] Mayhem is widely recognized on the net, because of his frequent vitriolic postings, as someone/thing ready to cut off his own penis to spite the testicles, although his friends recognize him better from the rear. /\ /..\ Tim C[ocksucker] Mayhem /_\/_\

2 1

Re: New Paper by Ron Rivest
by lucifer＠dhp.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Robert Hettinga wrote: > > From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam(a)ai.mit.edu> > To: "Micropay (E-mail)" <micropay(a)ai.mit.edu> > Subject: New Paper by Ron Rivest This interplay between C2Net schills and MIT schills is getting more than a little boring. We always seem to have the same actors involved in the attacks on the cypherpunks. First, lightweights like Kent Crispin post some dribble before the 'event' takes place. After the 'event', the heavyweight disinfo artists like Hallam-Baker step forward with their bullshit. Then their bum-buddy "cheers" Bob Hettinga forwards their posts from other lists to try to give them the appearance of respectability. Bullshit is bullshit, no matter how much these characters stroke each other's cocks. TruthMonger

1 0

Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
by Toto 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Kent Crispin wrote: > > I think it is fairly clear that AP is a Chimera. The problem with > lurid fantasies like it, though, is that they give the press and > politicians convenient targets. In fact, a case could be made for > considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill. Certainly he is a perfect foil > for a statist agenda. So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address) I am waiting for a post from Kent that is sufficiently lucid that it can be replied to without drinking an extra bottle of Scotch to follow his twisted trail of logic. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html

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Re: Feds reading this list, Jim Bell, and threats
by Kent Crispin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Mon, Apr 07, 1997 at 07:24:03PM -0600, Toto wrote: > Kent Crispin wrote: > > > > I think it is fairly clear that AP is a Chimera. The problem with > > lurid fantasies like it, though, is that they give the press and > > politicians convenient targets. In fact, a case could be made for > > considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill. Certainly he is a perfect foil > > for a statist agenda. > > So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is > an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address) Just so you know, Toto, .gov informs me it doesn't want there to be the slightest possibility of anyone thinking I am speaking for it. And the part about Jim Bell being an NSA shill? I am not volunteering to testify to anything, but your are the *second* person to say something about it, so it *must* be true. And the part about the statist agenda? That must be true too, since you quoted it. > I am waiting for a post from Kent that is sufficiently lucid that it > can be replied to without drinking an extra bottle of Scotch to follow > his twisted trail of logic. You needed that extra bottle anyway. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent(a)songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

1 0

AP--the choice of Postal Workers everywhere
by Toto 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

snow wrote: > Crispy Critters wrote: > > you are either born into that social contract, or you move > > into it. In either case the social contract that makes up the state > > predates your involvement. You are free to accept or reject the > > terms of that social contract. If you chose to reject them, then you > > should leave -- since the individuals who composed that contract were > > there before you, their rights take priority. > > BULLSHIT. I don't have a choice. I would like to leave, but > everywhere is already claimed by fucking statist pricks. There is no > place left where a person can go and be free of self important pricks > who think that it is _their_ right to infringe on _my_ rights. Since the land thieves have everything locked up, the only option is to stand and fight. Wise conquerers always leave the disenchanted a small, desolate place they can go to lick their wounds. The current fascists idiots in power don't have the sense to do that. The result is a civilization that is falling apart because those who don't want to take it in the ass have no option except to stick around and fight. > If the contract was written by people who no longer exist, and > enforced from the top, by force then you _do_ have the right to change > the system from without. Especially since (in the context of American, > French, and several other "[un]social contracts") they were themselves > brought about by force and violence, often with the support of less than > a majority. And you can never ignore the 'majority of one'. If the government deems it their right to act as they will, as a result of being heavily armed, then they complain in vain about the individual deeming it their right to act as they will, as a result of being heavily armed. What is good for the gander (government) is good for the goose (postal worker). -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html

1 0

Re: Wassenaar Arrangement now available
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

We've converted the AU version of Wassenaar "Part 3 Category 5 - Telecommunications and Information Security" DOC to HTML: http://jya.com/aucat_5.htm "Part 2 - Information Security" fits the notes on cryptography posted here by Hayashi Tsuyoshi and fills in the missing pieces.

1 0

Re: $20,000 the going rate?
by Toto 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

William H. Geiger III wrote: > > I am forwarding a message from another list as I felt it may be of intrest > to some here. > > Subject: SCANNER LISTENER FOILS MURDER PLOT > Following from the > Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Friday, April 4, 1997 > =========================================== > "TWO ACCUSED OF MURDER-FOR-HIRE PLOT" > > Overheard phone call leads to arrests And the way this relates to Jim Bell is... -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html

3 2

Tim I.R.S. May
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tim Bell wrote: At 10:57 PM +0100 4/7/97, Adam Back wrote: >I can think of at least half a dozen posts dealing with the ethics, the >need (they claim) for independent review, the immmorality of the death >penalty in general, and so on. >Exactly what more is needed? >If you mean that no one is talking about the mechanics of actually setting >up such a market, this may be true. For lots of reasons. Could be folks >just have no particular interest in spending the time to actually set one >up, even a "play" AP system. Could be they perceive other projects to be >more important. Or it could be that those who are setting up AP systems are not leaving themselves open to attack. >(Sidenote: the work Robin Hanson and others did on "idea futures" is an >example of something that's more important, and more "doable," and less >dangerous. And yet I see precious little discussion of _it_ on this list. Maybe that is because it doesn't address issues that the government feel are enough of a threat to suppress. >>Perhaps I'm just imagining things, but it would seem to me that if one >>had in the past made comments on the list suggesting that AP might >>even be a _good thing_, Jim Bell's experience might make one think now >>was be a good time to disclaim that one was talking theoretically. >But, on the contrary, I've seen more "positive" comments, in absolute >numbers, about AP in the last several days than I recall seeing in the last >several months. Perhaps if you weren't so liberal in your use of killfiles, then you wouldn't be so out of touch with what cypherpunks list members discuss on the list. >>I've viewed several posters comments on AP ever since Jim Bell got >>involved in discussing anonymous markets in illegal services as being >>careful to stay on the side of speech. >> >>It is almost as if they are afraid to discuss openly their views on >>the subject. >Example, please. Who was previously an advocate of AP on a regular basis >that has recently spoken only of it terms of speech? Tim, lacking the ability to read, asks about those who "advocate" AP. Adam is quite correct in his perception of cypherpunks pussyfooting around their true views on AP since the government attack on Jim Bell's views. Of course, Tim May attacks those who choose to remain anonymous via the cypherpunks remailers. Tim and the IRS make quite a tag-team in denigrating those who would speak freely about AP. >(Actually, I recall very few supporters of AP, even before the list >subscribership dropped dramatically.) Since you shitcan the posts of a variety of list subscribers, your recollections don't count for very much, do they? >I like a lot of your stuff, Adam, but on this one I think you're 175 >degrees out of phase with reality. Perhaps Adam's view of reality encompasses a broader range of posts to the list than Tim's does. Perhaps those who put all cypherpunks in their killfiles could claim that the cypherpunks don't really exist. TruthMonger (#1--the shit disturber)

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Blanc Weber / Positivist Schill
by Toto 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Blanc Weber wrote: > --------------------------------------------------- > In "Human Action", by Ludwig von Mises, he explains very well how > nations which restrict their market options create the tensions and > circumstances which lead to wars between them. All of the good computer gurus I know have degrees in Political Philosophy, and the like. You must be one of them. > I was considering, likewise, that the current developing technologies > might open up people's imagination to so many interesting things to do > and new ways to get what they are after, creating a sense of > "possibility", rather than "impossibility", that this would affect their > outlook on life and their attitude and turn their attention to more > positive things beyond killing - that is, beyond the idea of achieving > freedom from certain influences by killing the source of those > influences. Are you part of a cypherpunks list conspiracy to balance my cynicism? Are you actually suggesting that there may be a spark of hope for mankind to prevail in the battle with the forces of mindless robotic sheepnocity? > In the "new world order", those influences would not be so threatening, > as there would exist ways to route around them. This could reduce the > tensions which would otherwise arise, leaving the mind open to more > productive considerations, freed to think less in terms of destructive > methodologies. You seem to be one of the eternal optimists who can even see the possible good in AP. I suggested in a recent post that perhaps Green Peace could use the AP system to drain the profit margins of whalers without actually causing their death. Of course, I was low on Scotch at the time, so my idea cannot be taken seriously. -- Toto "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" http://bureau42.base.org/public/xenix/xenbody.html

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Fucking Idiots
by lucifer＠dhp.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

XX Xnon-to: PRESIDENT(a)WHITEHOUSE.gov The New York Times, April 7, 1997, pp. D1, D7. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- U.S. Restrictions on Exports Aid German Software Maker By EDMUND L. ANDREWS BOBLINGEN, Germany, April 3--Boris Anderer and his four partners have a message for the spy masters in America's national security establishment: thank you very, very much. Mr. Anderer is the managing director for marketing at Brokat Informationssysteme G.m.b.H., a three-year-old software company here that is growing about as fast as it can hire computer programmers. When America Online wanted to offer online banking and shopping services in Europe, it turned to Brokat for the software that encodes transactions and protects them from hackers and on-line bandits. When Netscape Communications and Microsoft wanted to sell Internet software to Germany's biggest banks, they had to team up with Brokat to deliver the security guarantees that the banks demanded. But what is most remarkable is that Brokat's rapid growth stems in large part from the Alice in Wonderland working of American computer policy. Over the last two years, Brokat and a handful of other European companies have carved out a booming business, selling powerful encryption technology around the world that the United States Government prohibits American companies from exporting. Mr. Anderer could not be happier. "The biggest limitation on our growth is finding enough qualified people," he said, as he strode past rooms filled with programmers dressed in T-shirts and blue jeans. The company's work force has climbed to 110 from 30 in the last year, and the company wants to add another 40 by the end of the year. "This company has grown so fast that I often don't know whether the people I see here have just started working or are just visitors," he said. Encryption technology has become a big battleground in the evolution of electronic commerce and the Internet. As in the United States, European banks and corporations are racing to offer on-line financial services, and many of these services are built around Internet programs sold by American companies like Netscape and Microsoft. Cryptography is crucial because it provides the only means for protecting customers and companies from electronic eavesdroppers. Though the market for encryption software is in itself tiny, it is a key to selling technology in the broader market of electronic commerce. Encryption is the first line of defense against hackers eager to pry loose credit card information and raid bank accounts, so it plays a critical role in the sale of Internet servers and transaction-processing systems. Brokat, which has revenues of about 10 million marks ($6 million), uses its cryptography as a door-opener to sell much more complicated software that securely links conventional bank computer systems to a bank's Internet gateways and on-line services. Netscape, Microsoft and computer equipment manufacturers all include encryption in the networking systems they sell to corporations. But the United States Government blocks American companies from exporting advanced encryption programs, because agencies like the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the National Security Agency fear that they will lose their ability to monitor the communications of suspected terrorists and criminals. Far from hindering the spread of powerful encryption programs, however, American policy has created a bonanza for alert entrepreneurs outside the United States. Brokat's hottest product is the Xpresso Security Package, a set of computer programs that bump up the relatively weak encryption capability of Internet browsers from Netscape and Microsoft. Besides America Online, Brokat's customers include more than 30 big banking and financial institutions around Europe. Deutsche Bank A.G., Germany's biggest bank, uses Brokat's software at its on-line subsidiary, Bank 24. Hypo Bank of Munich uses Brokat in its on-line discount stock brokerage operation. The Swiss national telephone company and the Zurcher Kantonalbank are also customers. Among Brokat's competitors, UK Web Ltd., based in London, is marketing an equally powerful encryption program in conjunction with a Silicon Valley company C2Net Software. Recently, UK Web and C2Net boasted of selling "full-strength" cryptography developed entirely outside the United States. "We don't believe in using codes so weak that foreign governments, criminals or bored college students can break them," the two companies said in a statement, in a stinging swipe at the American export restrictions. Bigger companies are starting to jump into the fray as well. Siemens-Nixdorf, the computer arm of Siemens A.G., recently began marketing a high-security Internet server program that competes with products from Netscape. Companies can download the software from Siemens computers in Ireland. There is nothing illegal or even surprising about this. The basic building blocks for advanced encryption technology, a series of mathematical algorithms or formulas, are all publicly available over the Internet. American companies like Netscape sell strong encryption programs within the United States, and companies like Brokat are even allowed to export their product to customers in the United States. For many computer executives, the real mystery is why the United States Government continues to restrict the export of encryption technology. "The genie is out of the bottle," said Peter Harter, global public policy counsel at Netscape, who complained that American policy thwarts his company's ability to compete. "I have a good product, and I can sell it to Citibank, but l can't sell it to Deutsche Bank," Mr. Harter said. "It doesn't make any sense. Why shouldn't they be able to buy the same product as Citibank? It makes them mad, and it makes us mad." In response to industry complaints, American officials have repeatedly relaxed the restrictions on encryption over the last several years, and they did so again last November. But because the speed of computers has increased so rapidly codes that seemed impenetrable just a few years ago can be cracked within a few hours. In a policy announced last fall, the Clinton Administration announced that it would allow American companies to freely export cryptography that used "keys" up to 40 bits in length. The longer the key, the more difficult a code is to crack. But banking and computer executives say that 40-bit codes are no longer safe and can be cracked in as little as a few hours by skilled computer hackers. The minimum acceptable code, according to many bank executives, must have keys that are 128 bits long. "From our point of view, there is at least the possibility that a 40-bit encryption program can be broken, and that means there is a danger that our transaction processing could be compromised," said Bernd Erlingheuser, a managing director at the Bank 24 unit of Deutsche Bank. Bank 24 has about 110,000 customers in Germany who gain access to banking services over the Internet using either the Netscape Navigator or Microsoft's Internet Explorer. Anette Zinsser, a spokeswoman for Hypo Bank, concurred. "Forty bits is just too low," she said. Hypo Bank offers Internet-based banking and discount brokerage services to about 28,000 customers. In a country not known for high-technology start-ups, Brokat jumped at the opportunity. Mr. Anderer, a former consultant at McKinsey & Company in Germany, teamed up three years ago with two fraternity friends, Michael Janssen and Stefan Roever, and two seasoned computer experts, Achim Schlumpberger and Michael Schumacher. The group originally conceived of building a company around modular software components that were designed for the banking industry, and they financed the company for nearly two years through the money they earned from consulting projects. But they were quickly drawn to the area of encryption, and developed a series of programs around the Java technology of Sun Microsystems. The Xpresso encryption package is installed primarily on the central "server" computers that on-line services use to send material to individual personal computers. Customers who want to connect to a bank's server download a miniature program, or applet, that meshes with their Internet browser program and allows the customer's computer to set up an encrypted link with the server. The effect is to upgrade the 40-bit encryption program to a 128-bit program, which is extremely difficult for outsiders to crack. Now, in another step through the looking glass of encryption policy, Brokat is trying to export to the United States. There is no law against that, but American laws would theoretically prohibit a company that used Brokat's technology from sending the applets to their online customers overseas. So the company is now negotiating with the National Security Agency for permission to let American companies send their software overseas, which is where it started from in the first place. If Brokat convinces the spy masters, the precedent could help American software rivals. "This could open a new opportunity that would benefit American companies if they understand the implications," Mr. Anderer said. [Photo (14K)] The five managing partners and founders of fast-growing Brokat Informationssysteme are (left to right) Boris Anderer, Michael Janssen, Achim Schlumpberger, Michael Schumacher and Stefan Roever. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why don't you fucking losers at the whitehouse just line American businessmen up against the wall and blow their brains out? Go to Germany and buy a fucking clue (if American $ are still worth anything by the time you're done fucking American business.) TruthMonger (#2)

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ZDNet Announces HealthyPC.com!
by announce＠lists.zdnet.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Anonymous cash via intermediaries
by Hal Finney 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The paper by Rivest on lottery tickets as micropayments, at: http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~rivest/publications.html is a clever idea, but he mentioned something in passing at the end that I thought was very interesting in its own right. He wrote: > True anonymity of the user from the vendor is more costly, as it > requires an intermediary (the vendor needs to have routing/delivery > information for the goods sold). That third party could also > intermediate the payments for the user - the user pays the intermediary, > and the intermediary pays the vendor. Anonymous cash is most useful in the context of anonymous communications. If you are achieving anonymity via "mix" technologies, like the remailers or Wei Dai's proposed PipeNet, then the same network which hides the communications path could hide the payment path. You pay the first mix in the chain, which pays the next, and so on until the person at the end receives payment. Even with a non-anonymous payment system, you get the effect of anonymity. With intermediaries like this, you could use, say, First Virtual's credit-card based payments. If you want to buy some information anonymously, you set up a remailer chain to send the request to FV. With that you include a payment to that first remailer, requesting forwarding. The remailer accepts the payment, processes the message, and when it forwards it, it sends along a payment of its own (from its own account) to the next remailer in the chain, again requesting forwarding. This continues until the last remailer forwards the message to the final recipient, making a payment of its own in response to the forwarding request. In order to figure out who paid whom, an observer would have to trace through the remailer chain. And if they could do that, they could follow the message too, breaking the anonymity. (I had proposed a similar idea of forwarded non-anonymous payments a couple of weeks ago, but that was specifically in the context of paying for remailers. Rivest's idea would extend this to a general payment scheme.) I see some obvious problems, but perhaps they can be patched up. The remailers would have to be honest and trustworthy (not to mention brave, clean, and reverent); if the payment somehow got lost en route it could be difficult to verify who had pocketed it. There is some anonymity lost by having all the remailers in the chain know how much is being paid, even if they don't know who is involved. If online payment schemes were used, they could leave traces which would allow after-the-fact tracing of the payment path (and therefore the message path). Despite this, the convenience barriers to the use of anonymous cash might make it worth looking into "payment remailers" (or web redirectors). As long as there are at least two forwarders in the chain you have a minimal level of anonymity, and your payments should be as anonymous as your communications. Hal

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Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really?
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:36 pm -0400 on 4/7/97, Kent Crispin wrote: > Nope. Not any of those things (Gee, there's that "statist" word > again. There must be a playbook somewhere). Yes. It's from the same playbook which says I now get to call you a "twit". > More a "security > analyst" notion. See the cute little book "Chaos and the Capital > Markets" (I don't have it handy so I can't give you the author.) > Anyway, he makes an empirical of security prices, and demonstrates > that they are chaotic. It was more oriented to practitioners, not > theorists... Bark. Chaos theory has nothing to say about the capital markets practically by definition, but that's a "security analyst" notion, so you probably wouldn't understand it. > Chaotic is not the same as stochastic. Actually, chaotic behavior is a subset of stochastic behavior. I stand by what I said. Just because a random variable is predictable within certain parameters doesn't mean that you can call say, every flip of a coin 100 times. When you get to the limit of predictability, you are as "efficient" as you can get. > There are obviously stochastic > factors in markets. Equally obviously, they are not the only factors. Sure. What? The devine right of kings? The inherent good of the surveillance state? I say that stochasticity, including chaos, is the only factor that matters. > The fact that markets demonstrate a chaotic element is potentially > exploitable as a trading strategy. That statement, is, of course, an another oxymoron, just like "market control". > I heard that's why trading houses > were hiring physicists, incidentally -- most of the expertise in > Chaos Theory was developed in the context of physics. Rediculous. Most of the "expertise" in chaos "theory" is in the hands of dillitantes who like to draw pretty pictures. Most of the physicists hired by Wall Street were people who discovered market analogs to physical processes. A friend of mine, for example, who used Monte Carlo simulations to analyze sonar returns, and now uses Green's functions to get faster results on interest rates and total return scenarios on bonds. Or another, who did 2D magnetohydrodynamic code once, and now does fun stuff in the currency markets. The problem with simulating a market with emergent systems is that you can't say anything about a given market when the simulation is over. Just about the simulation. Otherwise (duh?) it's not chaotic enough. Which, by the way, was my point. When you get to "chaos", you're as "efficient" as you can go. That's not to say that using emergent systems technology to create markets *themselves* isn't useful. Far from it. That's the kind of stuff several people around here hope to see arise from autonomous entities operating in cash-settled internet markets, for example. Cash settlement technologies, by the way, which need strong unescrowed cryptography even to function. > That's "Crispin", Mr. Applethwaite. I hate being mislabeled. Ah. Another ad hominem. See "twit", above. You're ugly, and your mother dresses *you* funny, too. By the way, I'm sorry I misspelled your name. For some reason, it seems I didn't respect you enough to get it right... > I never said anything about planned economies being efficient. In > fact, I never mentioned planned economies at all. You said that "chaotic" markets aren't efficient. I said exactly the opposite. That they are the ultimate in efficiency, and that if you believe that chaotic markets are not efficient, you must favor planned economies, because they're the only alternative. I figure this tendency towards stringent control must be from where you work or something. Oops. Another ad hominem. So sorry. They must be in the air this evening. > Obviously I can't "prove" markets are not efficient -- that's an > empirical matter, not a mathematical matter. However, no one can > prove they are efficient, either (that's why it's the "Efficient > Market *Hypothesis*"). There are many other examples of persistent > inefficiencies in markets, the presidential election year cycle > being the first to come to mind. Right. And the increasing American importation of bananas throughout the 20th century caused an increase in suicide. Another informal fallacy. You're nine for nine tonight, Mr. Ch^hispin. Of course there are actual exceptions to the efficient market hypothesis, fools' markets being the most famous example. However, the crash of any given fool's market is completely unpredictable, and, as such, is as efficient a price as you're going to get, paradoxically. Which was my point. > [interesting but besides the point argument deleted] Actually, it was the *whole* point, but you didn't get it. Another one of those "security analyst" notions, which kind of blew by you, in what seems to be a rather breezy evening in your neck of the woods... > > This inability of a hierarchy to handle as much information or resources as > > a geodesic is, of course, a major problem with key escrow, > > No, it's a theoretical problem that has no impact on practical key recovery > systems. Okay. I'll tell you this one, for fun, too, since you don't get *it* either. In a geodesic network, a single node can not possibly process all the information in the network. It chokes, and the network routes around it. You can bet that any key escrow agent would be innundated with surviellance requests and would eventually become either useless under the load no matter how big a processor it had. (Hint: it's the same kind of problem with certificate revocation.) Or, it will be forced to cache its keys in other locations, making them more insecure. Soon, either everyone can't get access to the keys because they can't handle the load, or everyone can because the keys aren't secret anymore. An interesting corrolary is that even if the keys were available, the surveilling entity would choke on *its* information load. This is FinCEN's eventual problem. Maybe we could call it the Freeh paradox, or something. Anyway, the best you can hope for is some kind of distributed caching model, based on the distributed trust models we talk about here. But, if some kind of centralized entity tries to access *those* keys for surviellance, it chokes even worse than if it had all the keys in the same place. > "Whip me! Beat me! Savage me in Cypherpunks!" Just lay there and take it, slave. You know you love it, or you wouldn't be here. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

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Sweden Netscape Intranet
by harka＠nycmetro.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Now, how do we get all of these people to use PGP for their e-mail? (Also interesting to note is the fact, that they'll use 128 bit crypto, regardless of what the US gov thinks about it...:)) Ciao Harka In> Sweden Gets Wired With Netscape (04/03/97; 8:30 p.m. EST) By In> Douglas Hayward , TechWire In> STOCKHOLM -- Netscape is negotiating an innovative deal with In> the Swedish national postal service aimed at creating a In> national intranet covering the whole of Sweden. In> Sweden Post plans to use Netscape's Communicator browser and In> SuiteSpot server software to offer Swedish households and In> small businesses intranet and Internet access services, In> according to observers familiar with the proposed deal, which In> is worth more than $10 million. In> The postal service would use the Netscape Directory Services In> product to create a single "white pages" facility covering all In> Swedish households wishing to join the scheme, which would In> potentially create a national intranet, observers said. In> All households joining the network would be given by Sweden In> Post electronic mailboxes and a copy of Netscape's In> Communicator browser software. The postal service would manage In> households' electronic mail services in a manner similar to In> the way it manages paper-based mail services. Sweden's total In> population is about 8.8 million people. In> The email addresses issued by Sweden Post would mimick the In> real-life address of each participating household. The goal is In> to issue more than 1 million email addresses by this summer, In> said Sweden Post spokesman Jan Andersson. In> "As far as I know, this is the first time a PTT has offered In> this kind of service," Andersson said. In> For households without networked PCs, Sweden Post would In> translate the incoming email and send it as separate faxes or In> print out the messages and send them through the paper-based In> mail system, he said. In> In addition to email, services offered to users will include In> electronic shopping, Web access, Web publishing facilities, In> and the ability to set up secure electronic trading outlets. In> The service will use 128-bit encryption software and digital In> certificates to ensure security. In> The idea that each assigned email address would be similar to In> the recipient's street address is troubling, said Ian Walden, In> a specialist in IT law for the London-based law firm of Tarlo In> Lyons. The plan may even violate the European data protection In> directive, a 1995 law that is in effect in all 15 nations in In> the European Union, he said. In> "Is it necessary to make a direct link in the email address to In> the physical location? I think it's dangerous," Walden said, In> "and I would warn Sweden Post to reconsider such an approach." In> Netscape will supply Sweden Post with browser and server In> software for an initial fee of roughly $10 million under the In> proposed deal, which was agreed in principle early March but In> has yet to be finalized. Sweden Post already uses Netscape's In> electronic publishing and merchant software in its Web-based In> electronic shopping mall -- known as Torget -- under a deal In> signed last year. In> Sweden Post, which recently lost its monopoly of mail delivery In> services in parts of Sweden, wants to become a major player in In> the Internet services market in order to compensate for any In> decline in its traditional business as a result of the growth In> of electronic communications. In> "Sweden Post realizes that either it gets into the electronic In> services market in a big way, or it loses a lot of business to In> Internet service providers. And for Netscape, deals like this In> with utilities are a perfect way to overcome Microsoft's In> greater marketing power among ISPs," said the observer. In> "Netscape believes that if it can to sign up the utilities, it In> won't have to worry too much about the ISPs in Europe." In> The initial licensing fee would not include the cost of future In> software upgrades nor the cost of royalty fees for copies of In> browser software distributed to households by Sweden Post. In> Lennart Gren, Netscape's director for the Nordic region In> including Sweden, declined to confirm that the deal had been In> agreed. In> Netscape has been targeting utilities and telcos in Europe for In> some time. In February, the German national telco, Deutsche In> Telekom, said it would promote Communicator as its browser of In> choice. The telco added that it would use Netscape's intranet In> suite as its product of choice when building intranets for In> corporate customers. /*************************************************************/ /* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE ...more info at */ /* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! -> http://www.epic.org */ /* E-mail: harka(at)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail pref'd) */ /* PGP public key available upon request. [KeyID: 04174301] */ /* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5 28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */ /*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/ /* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve */ /* and may all living beings find the way to happiness... */ /*************************************************************/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBM0nnJjltEBIEF0MBAQGACAf7B/fSypYu05W2AXyhDmhDTICbyt1EnsrE 1YdYCY01bTp9C0QjIXVsCLsfgpAzaC5BlGMjGa1IPPFRj/7zm9C26nIezYomggOu 0PLI2rvAPgjN3GxTs8k1/IfsJdi5PoTz6lLILL8NR5cXA+dCUeJbEx5jpS3zq709 SJgBg1L8IDI6Dg9JFhY0ZLrKxKbWq/cMM8swEqYF3HFEbDJXiBd4oSquhBBuYkxV f0Fd8WqFqaEcPp/MZ5oGp0cKsvnrw7QNTy+vLwvJqqM7Oj0P8hKPjG+shWkITKtx jg3Z8Juk4JvnlMhtv4Xe2b8fDO2cMW6qJCO1GGV/PWc1xU18W5pT5A== =txDk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...

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Re: "...markets are fundamentally chaotic, not efficient"? Really?
by Kent Crispin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Tue, Apr 08, 1997 at 01:51:45AM -0400, Robert Hettinga wrote: > At 12:36 pm -0400 on 4/7/97, Kent Crispin wrote: > > > Nope. Not any of those things (Gee, there's that "statist" word > > again. There must be a playbook somewhere). > > Yes. It's from the same playbook which says I now get to call you a "twit". Uh oh. Must of touched a nerve... > > More a "security > > analyst" notion. See the cute little book "Chaos and the Capital > > Markets" (I don't have it handy so I can't give you the author.) > > Anyway, he makes an empirical of security prices, and demonstrates > > that they are chaotic. It was more oriented to practitioners, not > > theorists... > > Bark. Chaos theory has nothing to say about the capital markets practically > by definition, but that's a "security analyst" notion, so you probably > wouldn't understand it. Sorry. It's Edgar Peters, "Chaos and Order in the Capital Markets", John Wiley, 1991. I'm sure you will rush out and buy a copy :-) > > Chaotic is not the same as stochastic. > > Actually, chaotic behavior is a subset of stochastic behavior. I stand by > what I said. Clearly, you don't know what you are talking about. Strictly speaking, chaotic behavior (as mathematically defined in chaos theory) is completely *deterministic*, not random. The conundrum is that chaotic behavior *looks* random, and indeed, it can be very hard to tell if a set of data is generated by a determinstic chaotic procedure or a stochastic procedure. Pretty pictures of Mandelbrot and Julia sets are generated by selecting points *determinstically*, iterating through a *determinsitic* algorithm, and looking at the result. It's the mathematics that creates the complexity, not randomness. (To be fair, of course, I must also state that some fractals are generated by starting with random numbers and running them through some algorithm.) > Just because a random variable is predictable within certain > parameters doesn't mean that you can call say, every flip of a coin 100 > times. When you get to the limit of predictability, you are as "efficient" > as you can get. > > > There are obviously stochastic > > factors in markets. Equally obviously, they are not the only factors. > > Sure. What? The devine right of kings? The inherent good of the > surveillance state? I say that stochasticity, including chaos, is the only > factor that matters. No, you described it just above when you said "just because a random variable is predictable within certain parameters". So, for example, I know that if a head is worth $1 and a tail is worth -$1, my net worth won't jump by $100 on a single toss. > > The fact that markets demonstrate a chaotic element is potentially > > exploitable as a trading strategy. > > That statement, is, of course, an another oxymoron, just like "market > control". I don't know whether you are expressing your flatulent ignorance of chaos theory, or whether you are referring to the term "trading strategy". I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter, and agree that the term "trading strategy" is at least suspicious. > > I heard that's why trading houses > > were hiring physicists, incidentally -- most of the expertise in > > Chaos Theory was developed in the context of physics. > > Rediculous. Most of the "expertise" in chaos "theory" is in the hands of > dillitantes who like to draw pretty pictures. A lot of those, for sure. But Mandelbrot did some of his first work on chaos studying cotton prices with Hendrik Houthakker, a Harvard economist. But how about Edward Lorenz (of the "Lorenz attractor") studying weather, studies of turbulence, Feigenbaum & Co at Los Alamos, the Dynamical Systems Group at Santa Cruz, etc etc. The pretty pictures are pretty, but even I can do those. > Most of the physicists hired > by Wall Street were people who discovered market analogs to physical > processes. A friend of mine, for example, who used Monte Carlo simulations > to analyze sonar returns, and now uses Green's functions to get faster > results on interest rates and total return scenarios on bonds. Or another, > who did 2D magnetohydrodynamic code once, and now does fun stuff in the > currency markets. Sure, that too. > The problem with simulating a market with emergent systems is that you > can't say anything about a given market when the simulation is over. Just > about the simulation. Otherwise (duh?) it's not chaotic enough. Which, by > the way, was my point. When you get to "chaos", you're as "efficient" as > you can go. I wasn't referring to simulating markets; I was referring to studying real markets. [...] > > That's "Crispin", Mr. Applethwaite. I hate being mislabeled. > > Ah. Another ad hominem. No, just a joke. Boy, I must really have hit a nerve. Sensitive big ego, perhaps? > See "twit", above. You're ugly, and your mother > dresses *you* funny, too. By the way, I'm sorry I misspelled your name. For > some reason, it seems I didn't respect you enough to get it right... That's ok. I just attribute it to a fragile ego, anyway. > > I never said anything about planned economies being efficient. In > > fact, I never mentioned planned economies at all. > > You said that "chaotic" markets aren't efficient. I said exactly the > opposite. That they are the ultimate in efficiency, and that if you believe > that chaotic markets are not efficient, you must favor planned economies, > because they're the only alternative. It's understandable that you might make this mistake, given your misunderstanding of dynamic systems. > I figure this tendency towards > stringent control must be from where you work or something. Oops. Another > ad hominem. So sorry. They must be in the air this evening. That nerve must really be throbbing. Sorry. > > Obviously I can't "prove" markets are not efficient -- that's an > > empirical matter, not a mathematical matter. However, no one can > > prove they are efficient, either (that's why it's the "Efficient > > Market *Hypothesis*"). There are many other examples of persistent > > inefficiencies in markets, the presidential election year cycle > > being the first to come to mind. > > Right. And the increasing American importation of bananas throughout the > 20th century caused an increase in suicide. Another informal fallacy. > You're nine for nine tonight, Mr. Ch^hispin. Of course there are actual > exceptions to the efficient market hypothesis, fools' markets being the > most famous example. You don't like my example, but agree to my point. I like that. So now we both agree that "there are actual exceptions to the efficient market hypothesis" (your words). > However, the crash of any given fool's market is > completely unpredictable, and, as such, is as efficient a price as you're > going to get, paradoxically. Which was my point. You, unfortunately, misunderstand your own example. It actually is a paradox. > > [interesting but besides the point argument deleted] > > Actually, it was the *whole* point, but you didn't get it. Another one of > those "security analyst" notions, which kind of blew by you, in what seems > to be a rather breezy evening in your neck of the woods... Plenty of hot air around, as you speak. > > This inability of a hierarchy to handle as much information or resources as > > a geodesic is, of course, a major problem with key escrow, > > No, it's a theoretical problem that has no impact on practical key recovery > systems. > > Okay. I'll tell you this one, for fun, too, since you don't get *it* > either. In a geodesic network, a single node can not possibly process all > the information in the network. It chokes, and the network routes around > it. > > You can bet that any key escrow agent would be innundated with > surviellance requests No, I wouldn't bet that. Even a lame theory a looks good against a braindead strawman. [rest of braindead strawman deleted] > > "Whip me! Beat me! Savage me in Cypherpunks!" > > Just lay there and take it, slave. You know you love it, or you wouldn't be > here. Actually the most entertaining thing is watching blowhards at work. And one thing for sure, Bob -- for all your failings, you *do* know how to blow. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent(a)songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

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some arguments for privacy
by Wei Dai 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

A couple of weeks ago I asked for some arguments in favor of privacy. I pointed out that one person's increased privacy exerts negative externalities on others by reducing their available information. I wanted to know why more privacy might be beneficial to society despite this consideration. I didn't really get the answers I wanted, probably because I wasn't clear about the kind of arguments I had in mind. Anyway, here I give some arguments of my own, which I hope offer new perspectives on this issue. Privacy as Insurance Suppose you are looking for a job. It seems reasonable to argue that if you are a better than average worker, you would be able to get a better offer if you had less privacy because the potential employers would be better able to distinguish your abilities from your past history. On the other hand less privacy would hurt you if you are a worse than average worker. If you don't yet know your own abilities, you would prefer more privacy as an insurance against your own potential deficiencies. If that doesn't seem realistic, consider how the argument might apply to your children. This line of reasoning also explains why people are troubled by genetic screening. Thus privacy might increase social welfare by providing a sort of social insurance. Privacy as Restriction on Signaling "Signaling" is a term used by game theorists to describe the use of publicly observable actions to provide information to others about one's private attributes. The best example comes from biology, where male peacocks grow extravagant tails to signal their genetic fitness to females. Clearly signals must be costly, otherwise they wouldn't be convincing. They are often also wasteful, as in the peacock example. (As a side note, the deposit solution to the junk mail problem I talked about some days ago is an example of non-wasteful signaling.) Privacy reduces the range of actions one can use as signals. This would increase social welfare if the wastefulness of the signals exceed the benefit they provide in the form of useful information. Consider a possible future where every room in every house is wired with a camera that continously broadcasts to the Internet. Life would certainly be very uncomfortable in this future, as every trivial action must be carefully considered in order to preserve one's reputation. Possible Benefit of Non-Privacy Limited This is more of an argument for privacy technology, rather than privacy per se. Suppose that privacy-invading technology becomes much cheaper than privacy-enhancing technology. Given the arguments above it seems inevitible that governments will pass laws to restrict the distribution of certain kinds of information about individuals. But of course this will not keep the information out of the hands of those governments themselves and other resourceful organizations. Thus any possible benefit of decreased privacy in the form of market efficiency would be severely limited since only a few market players would have improved information. This benefit would be easily outweighted by the harm in the form of governments' increased coercive power.

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Re: [PGP-USERS] New International Version (fwd)
by 3umoelle＠informatik.uni-hamburg.de 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message from Lutz Donnerhacke <lutz(a)iks-jena.de>: On Tue, Apr 08, 1997 at 02:00:02AM +0200, Ulf Möller wrote: > > The subject is somewhat misleading. PGP 2.6.3in is a derivative of > > PGP 2.6.3i, modified as to comply with the policy of the certification > > authority run by Individual Network e.V. (IN e.V.). Specificially, it > > differentiates between signature and encryption keys, and implements > > key expiry dates. > > PGP4.5 does both of these things. I wonder if their modifications are > compatible with PGP Incs newer version. > > It would be a pity for the versions to get out of sync and cause > compatibility problems. If PGP4.5 follows the PGFormat.Doc specifications, there will be no problem despite ENCR/SIGN, which is not covered by the PGFormat.Doc.

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Denning paper on crypto, EU mandatory GAK
by Greg Broiles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but I ran across a new (new to me; it's dated 2/19/97) paper by Dorothy Denning re crypto and crypto policy/legislation. Historically, her work has proven to precede/predict policy shifts on the part of the US government. The paper has little information which is new to a reader of cpunks; but I did note one ominous paragraph referring to the role of "TTPs" in Europe: >>>> The European Commission has been preparing a proposal to establish a European-wide network of Trusted Third Parties (ETS) that would be accredited to offer services that support digital signatures, notarization, confidentiality, and data integrity. The trust centers, which would operate under the control of member nations, would <<<< ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>>> hold keys that would enable them to assist the owners of data with emergency decryption or supply keys to their national authorities on production of a legal <<<< ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>>> warrant. The proposal is expected to be adopted by the Commission, with discussions provisionally scheduled in the Council of the European Union for the first half of 1997 [22] <<<< Also see <http://www.seven77.demon.co.uk/krisis/>, which appears to be the home page for a pilot project creating a software and political/corporate infrastructure for Europe-wide GAK. Yow. Also of interest is her cite <http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/Trends.html#29> to John Young's archived version of the 12/30/96 revision of the EARs instead of the BXA's. The paper itself is at <http://guru.cosc.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/Trends.html>; like it or not, it may prove to be a useful insight into what's coming in 1997/1998. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQEVAgUBM0oWVP37pMWUJFlhAQEClgf/WIIWSILMpyM47o1LU83cS78V7OHuSpJM WsSrajoKX4TxbH/+Dwcwjf/s8IFI41+rj9VcL+pucXN+HarztYJpT6MX80ULI6sa EvmpXZ2gfKBisvHs9co2CRvSHwTip03sJvciGxilk0V70jNPaSZfRPb+22wsQerl his86IqSUt1OQFkXLmiOCak0z1jT6D25AoVCc+M0EoKfE7KwmOdoiFxhrAw1/HqZ 09H98nB55fS207zBsKW6b0u2zQfA9pTHeNfRn7V1PHnqaO4iprGy4SDMvbh/4t87 1wznAc25Un1QwTPTAjQypS7vS+qlMGRUPIO2uwzCi6HuK84c2Tf9Cw== =qR1F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles(a)netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. |

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U.S.S. Liberty
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Timothy Maypole digs into his cesspool of a mind for his mailing list fertilizer. _ o |<)_/# Timothy Maypole TT <T

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Re: Adam Back speaks out on AP / was: Jim Bell? Never heard of him.
by lucifer＠dhp.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Adam Back wrote: > Anonymous writes: > There is a cost with > anonymity: people take you less seriously, none of your reputation is > on the line. Anonmous persistent personas might be better as they > allow reputation to be tracked. True, if your concern is to be listened to by those concerned about reputation. If your aim is for your post to stand upon its own facts and logic, however, then a 0-reputation persona may be preferable. There were a series of "Jim Bell is a loon." postings which I found to be uninformative in regard to the points they seemed to want to ramrod past the readers by virtue of discounting the message via slamming the messenger. > > So the end result might well be, not the assassination of those > > involved, but the lessening of their power by virtue of depleting > > their funds, which leads to a more equal playing field. > > I'm not sure this follows. > > If a corporate can use it's wealth to influence other groups, for > example by assasinating key employees of opposition company, it may > well get richer as a result. I see the value of AP not in the assassination of others, but in the potential for a wide-ranging group of individuals to drain the assets of their oppressors. Large grocery chains have a history of moving into an area, then undercutting the little guys until they are forced out of business, whereupon they raise their prices outrageously, unfettered by competition. AP might well serve as an avenue for the little guys to band together to target these operations and remove the profitability of this mode of monopolistic attack. The TruthMonger multi-user persona might well serve as a similar example of raising the cost of doing "character assassination" business. I might well be Jim Bell, himself. However, rather than saying, "Jim Bell is a loon, so we can discount all of TruthMonger's arguments.", one is forced to deal with the validity of the arguments, facts, and logic in the posts. Certainly a persona with built-up reputation capital can be an asset in many situations, but there is also a time when anonymous communications can serve as a conduit for weaning out those enamored with personality issues, and who lack the discernment to judge the true content and logic underlying a message. TruthMonger

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Re: your mail
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

mpd(a)netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes: > Graham-John writes: > > > On Mon, 7 Apr 1997, Mix wrote: > > > I think Vulis needs each of us to send ten copies of this back to him. > > [Silly Timmy May insult deleted] > > You do realize you are doubling the amount of noise by responding to > each and every one of these posts, don't you? Perhaps he doesn't. A prefrontal lobotomy does that to people. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

ichudov(a)algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes: > Hi, > > As we all know, there exist certain programs, called "spambots", whose > task is to post various messages to many newsgroups simultaneously. > > Besides their posting functionality, certain spambot programs take > special care to make their spams undetectable by anti-spambots. In > particular, they can be programmed to modify certain fields or the > message text itself in such a way that these messages would not look > unique, but would still carry the same content. > > We can generalize the things that spambots might do and suggest that > a general spambot would do the following to avoid spam detection: > > 1) modify all header fields, for example From: Subject:, etc, with > each spam posting. > 2) Follow up to other articles posted to newsgroups so that the > spams would look like genuine unique messages to the readers, and > defeat spam detectors Right - if you're following up in a newsgroup, you can just re-use the subject. You can also use the "From:" and other headers from one of the regular posters. > 3) Randomly altering the spam message proper such that blindly comparing If you're following up, then rather than being random, you can tailor you response based on the message you're following up on - kind of like Eliza or better. :-) > them would be futile. Such alterations may include interchanging certain > synonymous words, adding spaces or punctuation, or simply changing line > wrapping length. > 4) Swapping paragraphs and phrases. > 5) Add random headers, footers & fillings (like ASCII art) > > I am sure that the readers can come up with more examples. > > The task (or the problem) is: > > a) come up with a reasonable set of assumptions of what such a > spambot would or could do > b) Create an algorithm which would print Message-IDs of messages that > have identical content, so that most if not all of the judgments of > this algorithm would be correct, assuming that the spambot operates > within the limits of a). > > A message can be thought of as a sequence of words, phrases and > paragraphs, as well as a set of header lines. > > Path: header field may be specially treated. I don't think it's possible. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Cryptography Export
by Secret Squirrel 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I export cryptography source code almost every single day. Does the government have a problem with that? Fuck them in the ass! I can't believe that corporations pay legal experts huge sums of money to receive advice telling them to bend over and spread 'em for the government's bullshit legislation. I am not alone. My nephew regularly exports 'code' for Pig-Latin, as a parody of my efforts to spread the use of crypto. He says that they can take his Pig-Latin when they pry it from his cold, dead, baby fingers. Cable companies regularly export encryption code when they send out their signal-scrambling code to foreign recipients. Can you think of other examples? Can you think of hundreds of similar examples? Think about it. If the government wants to prosecute me for exporting encryption code, then they had best be prepared to prosecute _all_ exporters of every single item that involves altering data that can be re-converted on the other end to render the output intelligible. If you think that I am taking this matter lightly, then think again, because I have a legal opinion from an attorney who has been shoving the governments dick back in their own face for half a century, and he regards my potential defence as a cake-walk. I not only already have the paperwork set up to defy any potential restraining orders that may arise, but I have a judge that is fully prepared to institute the necessary proceedings to validate my right to do what hundreds or thousands of individuals and corporations are doing every single day. If the government thinks that they can legislate the thickness of condoms available for export, then they had best think again. And if they think that they can require exported condoms to have holes in them, then they are certainly living in fantasy land. I am a self-confessed madman, but I am a madman standing on legal precedents that are as solid as the Rock of Gibralter. (Think about it.) Potential Prudential Precedent <precedent(a)crackhouse.gov>

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Re: Cuba and AP
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:24:54 -0700 Subject: Re: Cuba and AP To: cypherpunks(a)toad.com From: nobody(a)huge.cajones.com (Huge Cajones Remailer) On the date above TruthMonger (#7) stumbled about missed the point: [SNIP THIS TRIPE] >>>> The stench in Cuba was so bad under the U.S. backed Batista regime that Guerva and Castro were a breath of fresh air for the majority of Cuban people. Despite years of harassment, invasion, and economic attack on Cuba by the shameless 'free' countries <yuk,yuk> of the world, Castro is still a better option for the Cuban people than other options. <<<< Moreover, young #7, those older than you recall the _joy_ with which Castro, et al, were greeted by much of the US media and a large segment of the seemingly informed public. Only, I say only, when it became common knowledge that Castro was backed by the commies did he become the villain. Better the people suffer under bu$ine$$-supported Batista than be ruled by a Red! Believe it; I was there, whippersnapper! TruthMonger (#23)

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Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

owner-cypherpunks(a)manifold.algebra.com writes: > As we all know, there exist certain programs, called "spambots", whose > task is to post various messages to many newsgroups simultaneously. > > Besides their posting functionality, certain spambot programs take > special care to make their spams undetectable by anti-spambots. In > particular, they can be programmed to modify certain fields or the > message text itself in such a way that these messages would not look > unique, but would still carry the same content. I just came up with yet another brilliant idea how to combine Usenet marketing with e-cash. Suppose Alice runs an advertizing agency and gets paid to publicize certain messages of commercial or political nature. She sets up a Web page listing the catalog of regexps that she wishes to publicize. Something like: 1. Visit.*teens.*http://www.xxxfoo.bar 2. Elect.*John M. Grubor.*sheriff 4. For a drooling good time.*900-555-5555 3. Drink Kaka Cola and a price list for each regexp - say, $2 for posting this regexp in a moderated newsgroup, 50c for the Big 8, 25c for alt and regionals. I'm not sure if cross-posts should be discounted. Assuming there are several such Alices, the prices will be set by supply and demand. Suppose Bob, in search of a few quick bucks, comes across Alice's site. We'd have to think of a protocol, but Alice assigns Bob an id which he must mention together with the regexps in order to get credit. Alice and Bob enter a contract. Bob puts one or more of Alice's regexps in his Usenet articles - most likely in the .signature. For example: From: bob Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice Message-ID: <123(a)bob.server> <something phishing-related> -- Elect John M. Grubor sheriff!!! Alice's ID# 123456 I am Bob! I am Bob! I am Bob the Poster! Drink Kaka Kola Alice's bot searches the Usenet feed (like K*bo and S*rd*r) for the regexps that she is paid to promote. When she encounters Bob's article, it extracts Bob's ID and the Message-Id, counts the distinct regexps, and the newsgroups, and credits Bob's account. If Carol follows up on Bob's article and quotes Bob's regexps and ID#, then Bob gets paid again. If somehow an article contains the ID# of two or more of Alice's agents, they split the fee. Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP. Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details. Actually, this doesn't even need e-cash - Alice can pay regular $$$. Hi Ross - if you're still on these lists, I think you'll like this. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: Blanc Weber / Positivist Schill
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Are you part of a cypherpunks list conspiracy to balance my > cynicism? Are you actually suggesting that there may be a spark > of hope for mankind to prevail in the battle with the forces of > mindless robotic sheepnocity? There is little hope unless we kill around 70% of the population of the planet, those untouched by western "democracy" or the totalitarian autocracies of the mid and far east are the only people sure to be mentally capable of comprehending the ethical theory and idealogy of anarchism. > You seem to be one of the eternal optimists who can even see > the possible good in AP. One does not need to be an optimist to see the good in AP, merely capable of following a logical chain of thought without allowing yourself to react to things rather than really considering them. > I suggested in a recent post that perhaps Green Peace could use > the AP system to drain the profit margins of whalers without > actually causing their death. Of course, I was low on Scotch at > the time, so my idea cannot be taken seriously. I am low on Jack Daniels at the moment, so I too am not functioning as usual. Reality is merely a halucination brought on by lack of alcohol. Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Kent Crispin-Baker
by null＠myemail.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Kent Crispin wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 07, 1997 at 07:24:03PM -0600, Toto wrote: > > Kent Crispin wrote: > > > > > > In fact, a case could be made for > > > considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill. > > So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is > > an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address) > Just so you know, Toto, .gov informs me it doesn't want there to be > the slightest possibility of anyone thinking I am speaking for it. Amazing that they notified you right after I made note of it, isn't it? > And the part about Jim Bell being an NSA shill? I am not volunteering > to testify to anything, but your are the *second* person to say > something about it, so it *must* be true. And the part about the > statist agenda? That must be true too, since you quoted it. I think that they are confusing you with Hallam-Baker, who offered to testify against Bell in court. This is an understandable error, since even a modicum of traffic analysis shows that you work in concert with one another. > -- > Kent Crispin > kent(a)songbird.com [ And, lest we forget: kc(a)llnl.gov ] TruthMonger ************************************************************************ This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/ MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer to the URL above for instructions on how to do so. ************************************************************************

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Kent Crispin-Baker
by null＠myemail.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Kent Crispin wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 07, 1997 at 07:24:03PM -0600, Toto wrote: > > Kent Crispin wrote: > > > > > > In fact, a case could be made for > > > considering Jim Bell as a NSA shill. > > So, now Kent is volunteering to testify to the fact that Jim Bell is > > an NSA shill. (and still seems ashamed of his .gov address) > Just so you know, Toto, .gov informs me it doesn't want there to be > the slightest possibility of anyone thinking I am speaking for it. Amazing that they notified you right after I made note of it, isn't it? > And the part about Jim Bell being an NSA shill? I am not volunteering > to testify to anything, but your are the *second* person to say > something about it, so it *must* be true. And the part about the > statist agenda? That must be true too, since you quoted it. I think that they are confusing you with Hallam-Baker, who offered to testify against Bell in court. This is an understandable error, since even a modicum of traffic analysis shows that you work in concert with one another. > -- > Kent Crispin > kent(a)songbird.com [ And, lest we forget: kc(a)llnl.gov ] TruthMonger ************************************************************************ This Anonymous email has been relayed by http://www.MyEmail.net/ MyEmail.Net is a free anonymous mailing service. No records indicating the identity of person(s) who originated this message are retrieved electronically, or as a requirement to submit. Your email address can be blocked to prevent further contact from this service, please refer to the URL above for instructions on how to do so. ************************************************************************

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Re: Cuba and AP
by lucifer＠dhp.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

TruthMonger (#23) wrote: > Only, I say only, when it became common knowledge that Castro > was backed by the commies did he become the villain. > > Better the people suffer under bu$ine$$-supported Batista than > be ruled by a Red! The Cuban people obviously thought differently, regardless of the wishes of foreign interests. > Believe it; I was there, whippersnapper! Yes, but you wouldn't be *here* if my gun hadn't jammed. TruthMonger (#7) "This grassy knoll looks like a good place to have lunch. What's in the picnic basket?"

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Re: Anti-Spambot: what algorithm should be used?
by ichudov＠algebra.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Another problem: what would prevent an anti-spam zealot from posting the following: From: antispammer(a)usenet.cabal.com Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice Message-ID: <123(a)bob.server> <something phishing-related> -- Alice's ID# 123456 Drink Kaka Kola -- Kaka Cola is full of shit, do not drink it, I am just collecting $$ from stupid Alice, Hahaha!!! Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > i think that it is a good idea. > > remember though that it will not be hard to modify newsreader clients to > automatically killfile all articles matching Alice's regexps, or even to > grab them automatically from her website. So Alice may discover that her > business is not as effective. > > igor > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > owner-cypherpunks(a)manifold.algebra.com writes: > > > > > As we all know, there exist certain programs, called "spambots", whose > > > task is to post various messages to many newsgroups simultaneously. > > > > > > Besides their posting functionality, certain spambot programs take > > > special care to make their spams undetectable by anti-spambots. In > > > particular, they can be programmed to modify certain fields or the > > > message text itself in such a way that these messages would not look > > > unique, but would still carry the same content. > > > > I just came up with yet another brilliant idea how to combine Usenet > > marketing with e-cash. Suppose Alice runs an advertizing agency and gets > > paid to publicize certain messages of commercial or political nature. > > > > She sets up a Web page listing the catalog of regexps that she wishes to > > publicize. Something like: > > > > 1. Visit.*teens.*http://www.xxxfoo.bar > > 2. Elect.*John M. Grubor.*sheriff > > 4. For a drooling good time.*900-555-5555 > > 3. Drink Kaka Cola > > > > and a price list for each regexp - say, $2 for posting this regexp in a > > moderated newsgroup, 50c for the Big 8, 25c for alt and regionals. I'm > > not sure if cross-posts should be discounted. Assuming there are several > > such Alices, the prices will be set by supply and demand. > > > > Suppose Bob, in search of a few quick bucks, comes across Alice's site. > > We'd have to think of a protocol, but Alice assigns Bob an id which he > > must mention together with the regexps in order to get credit. Alice and > > Bob enter a contract. Bob puts one or more of Alice's regexps in his > > Usenet articles - most likely in the .signature. For example: > > > > From: bob > > Newsgroups: rec.sports.phishing,alt.fan.alice > > Message-ID: <123(a)bob.server> > > <something phishing-related> > > -- > > Elect John M. Grubor sheriff!!! Alice's ID# 123456 > > I am Bob! I am Bob! I am Bob the Poster! Drink Kaka Kola > > > > Alice's bot searches the Usenet feed (like K*bo and S*rd*r) for the > > regexps that she is paid to promote. When she encounters Bob's article, > > it extracts Bob's ID and the Message-Id, counts the distinct regexps, and > > the newsgroups, and credits Bob's account. > > > > If Carol follows up on Bob's article and quotes Bob's regexps and ID#, > > then Bob gets paid again. If somehow an article contains the ID# of two > > or more of Alice's agents, they split the fee. > > > > Alice's contract can also specify that if a third party forges a cancel > > within a week for Bob's Usenet article containing the regexp, then Alice > > will pay nothing and let Bob sue the forger for the lost income. (This > > may become moot as more and more ISPs ignore forged cancels.) This gives > > Bob the insentive to spam intelligently - not to trigger any cancelbots > > and not to have his plug pulled by his ISP. > > > > Alice can also put some reasonable caps on the number of repetitions > > because if Bob posts the same regexp 10,000 times, the marginal exposure > > is less from Bob than from a newbie Carol. Again, if there are several > > such Alices, the market will take care of negotiating such details. > > > > Actually, this doesn't even need e-cash - Alice can pay regular $$$. > > Hi Ross - if you're still on these lists, I think you'll like this. > > > > --- > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM > > Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps > > > > > > - Igor. > - Igor.

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Re: 20 Armed Feds raid home of guy (Jim Bell) who posted to Internet
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

tcmay(a)got.net (Tim May) writes: > had a chance to arise. And at least a couple of CP list members have talked > about lawsuits, without any apparent devastation of their repuations (even Has or hasn't C2Net's reputation been devastated by Sandy Sandfart? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Please donate to Sean Fein whenever Hallam-Baker posts to this list
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk writes: > > >You may have put your own life at risk. The IRA is not the only > > >terrorist group in Ireland, its opponents make a point of assasinating > > >anyone who openly supports IRA activities. > > > > > > Phill. > > Oh dear Dimitri, I do hope Phill hasn`t frightened you *too* much ;-) Not at all - he just reaffirmed my conviction that the IRA is right. > > > Paul, or someone in U.K. - > > I'd like to donate $1 to the IRA every time Hallam-Baker posts to > > this mailing list. Can someone please tell me a convenient way > > to send them donations? Thank you very much. > > I would say you were probably best to send a $1 donation for each > post to Sinn Fein, the "legitimate" political wing of the IRA which > claims not to condone their violent actions but is, in fact, a > conduit for IRA funding. I don`t know their address but if you do a > web search in UK polotics for Sinn Fein you should find them pretty > easily. They may also be a good site to run an AP bot from ;-) That's an excellent suggestion! Thank you very much, Paul. I found their web site at http://www.irlnet.com/sinnfein. They have a little electronic commerce page - if you have ssh, you can order a cool Bobby Sands T-shirt and pay with your Visa or MasterCard. OK, I hereby pledge to snail-mail $1 cash to: Friends of Sinn F\'ein 510 C St NE Washington, DC 20002 Every time Hallam-Baker posts to this mailing list. I urge other list members to do likewise. You will be supporting a just cause. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: AP Revisited
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk writes: > > Like Insurance? By purchasing insurance you are in effect > > betting that you _will_ have an accident that does more damage than > > you have paid in premiums. > > > > Really contorted huh? > > Hmm, I hadn`t thought of that, this is an interesting way to see AP: > Taking out a life insurance policy on someone else... But of course - entities that sell insurance/write options refer to their business as "making bets" and that's exactly what it is. By the way a lot of people in the finance industry are compulsive gamblers who lose tremendous amounts of money on horses, sports events, Atlantic City, etc. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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congressman wants review of online banking system
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text X-Sender: oldbear(a)pop.tiac.net Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 17:58:51 -0400 To: Digital Commerce Society of Boston <dcsb(a)ai.mit.edu> From: The Old Bear <oldbear(a)arctos.com> Subject: congressman wants review of online banking system Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: bounce-dcsb(a)ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: The Old Bear <oldbear(a)arctos.com> CONGRESSMAN CALLS FOR REVIEW OF ONLINE BANKING House Banking Committee Chairman James Leach (R-Iowa) has asked the General Accounting Office to review whether the Federal Reserve has sufficiently protected its Fedwire funds transfer and security transfer system from electronic trespassing. Fedwire processes around 380,000 securities and funds transfers totaling $1.6 trillion each day. source: BNA Daily Report for Executives April 7, 1997 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo(a)ai.mit.edu In the body of the message, write: unsubscribe dcsb Or, to subscribe, write: subscribe dcsb If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB(a)ai.mit.edu --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA Lesley Stahl: "You mean *anyone* can set up a web site and compete with the New York Times?" Andrew Kantor: "Yes." Stahl: "Isn't that dangerous?" The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

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