December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Key Recovery / The True Story
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

When Key Recovery and Key Escrow schemes become a fact of life, there will be abuse and fraud of the nature that some on the cypherpunks list have expressed concern about. The grandmother who is arrested for plugging a parking meter will have her computer confiscated so the authorities can search for evidence that her plugging of the meter was pre-planned. Some $20,000/year clerk is going to dip into someone else's funds to support their drug habit. And some government spook is going to break into a church's computer to find out if they are secret terrorists because they oppose this or that government policy. The fact of the matter is, the government is perfectly happy with the citizens' vocal opposition to these possibilities because it provides a convenient smokescreen for the greater import of Key Escrow. They will occasionally pop a Jim Bell, or a "pornographer" to justify their "need" for Key Escrow, but they will let nature take its course until their capacity to monitor everyone, everywhere, all the time, is an accepted fact of life. The real reasons for the push for Key Recovery and Key Escrow are centered on global concerns. World power is acquired and maintained by acquiring and manipulating information and opinion. Countries and companies are helped to rise and fall from prominence. One is supported, another is sabotaged. One politician has his sins covered and another has them exposed. The rich and the powerful have always ruled, no matter what form the government of the day takes. It has always been so. When the government disinformation specialists incite the citizens to fight over pennies, it is to distract them while the rulers steal their dollars. The chaos of the citizen is the friend of the government, so they work to promote a chaos that will meet their needs. They allow us to have our Saviors, but if our J.F.K.'s and our Martin Luther Kings get too powerful, then they are removed. The allow us to have our victories, but there is always a 'rider' attached that takes away yet another of our rights and freedoms. While we fight battles, the government fights wars. Anyone who believes that the attack on Jim Bell is not aimed at the CypherPunks is a fool. While we fight battles, the government fights wars. TruthMonger

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Re: Spam IS Free Speech
by Mark Grant 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Spam is interfering with the *real* victim's (the sendmail operator's) > ability to provide customer service; in a very real and fiscally > damaging way. It's worse than that; some asshole has just sent out a spam with a forged return address at $$$$(a)unicorn.com. There is absolutely nothing I can do to stop people sending such forgeries, yet my mailbox is about to explode with megabytes of complaints and mailbombs. I hate to think what kind of mess I'll have to deal with when I get back from my holiday next week. Anyone know how to track down the owner of 1-800-322-6169 EXT 2561, the only contact information in the spam? I'm not in the US so I can't call them to complain. Is there any way I and the spammees could take legal action against them without spending vast amounts of money? Mark P.S. Privtool 0.90 is just out at utopia.hacktic.nl; I'll send a proper announcement soon. Privtool is a PGP-aware mail program for X-windows, see details at http://www.unicorn.com/privtool/privtool.html.

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Re: "You have the right to remain silent"
by lucifer＠dhp.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tim May wrote: > The latest example being the Ramsey case in Boulder ("Home of PGP"). Much > is made of the fact that the Ramseys, not being under arrest, are not > required to *say anything* to the police. (Left unanswered is why innocent > parents whose daughter has been brutally murdered would choose to say > nothing to the police...even I, a skeptic about much that modern cops are > involved in, am suspicious of the Ramseys for their noncooperativeness.) The noncooperation of the Ramseys does not reflect on their guilt or innocence, but on the fact that they have an excellent lawyer. People who have average lawyers, or even good ones, have a much greater chance of being convicted of a crime that they did not commit. When the police interview you, they have information or evidence that you and your lawyer aren't aware of. Their job is to get you to make statements that can be used against you in the future if you are charged with a crime. They attempt to lead you into making an innocent statement such as, "I eat eggs sometimes." and the next thing you know you are in court with a prosecutor repeating it and pointing at you accusingly. The fact of the matter is that guilt or innocence is no longer decided on real evidence, for the most part. *Circumstantial* evidence rules the roost, and it has been perverted to become a battle of which lawyer can spin the most convincing tale around indefinite evidence. So you go to jail because you drive a red truck, smoke camels and own a pair of brown socks (despite the fact that all of the witnesses described someone who was a foot taller and a hundred pounds heavier). How is this crypto relevant? It is yet another symptom of why we are losing our privacy and our freedom. The Ramseys should live in a world where they can put trust in their government and tell them everything that might remotely help find their child's murderer, instead of unjustly ending up on the chopping block themselves. Cypherpunks should live in a world where they can share their logs with the government to help them catch a child murderer and know that their cooperation will not be used to abuse themself or others who use the remailers. What about the cooperation of Jim Bell's friends. The newspapers report that his friends say they talked about this or that in a joking manner (or somesuch innocuous way), but you can bet your bottom dollar that this is not mentioned on the application for an arrest warrant. When the police interview you and ask you if you plan to kill the president, answer, "Yes. When pigs fly." Which part of your statement will they neglect to mention when they file the charges against you? (Take a wild guess on this one.) If you have joined in the discussion of the AP Bot, then I hope that you saved *all* of your posts, because the government will be introducing the ones where you described a possible implementation but not the posts where you described the system as unfeasible and unrealistic. If Jim Bell and his friends had the Ramseys' lawyer they wouldn't have been so quick to supply information which can be twisted and perverted to support Bell's persecution. TruthMonger

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AW: Good book on stegano?
by Hartmut Korth 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Von: Chevreau Sylvain Gesendet: Freitag, 16. Mai 1997 02:37 An: stegano-l Betreff: RE: Good book on stegano? Hi everybody, hi Deepa, 1) Maybe the tutorial/review is being written in some university or company, e.g. for the planed 2nd Int. Workshop on Information Hiding or other publications or internally. Who knows? Because there have been several seperate publications and first compilations in various media in '96 and I haven't yet found any technical paper about steganography published in 1997. Has anybody? My feeling is everybody is reviewing right now! 2) Actually there are already at least 2 BOOKS dedicated to steganography: - "Disappearing cryptography" by Peter Wayner (pcw(a)access.digex.net) the review of which can be found in the CIPHER newsletter #19 (or was it 18?) & #20. [How to get first contact with Cipher, "Newsletter of the IEEE Computer Society's TC on Security and Privacy" : BACK ISSUES: There is an archive that includes each copy distributed so far, in ascii, in files you can download at URL http://www.itd.nrl.navy.mil/ITD/5540/ieee/cipher/cipher-archive.html There is also an anonymous FTP server that contains the same files. To access the archive via anonymous FTP: 1. ftp www.itd.nrl.navy.mil 2. At prompt for ID, enter "anonymous" 3. At prompt for password, enter your actual, full e-mail address 4. Once you are logged in, change to the Cipher Directory: cd pub/cipher 5. Now you can request any of the files containing Cipher issues in ascii. Issues are named in the form: EI#N.9612 where N is the number of the issue desired and 9612 captures the year and month it appeared. ] - "Information Hiding", edited by Ross Anderson, Springer Verlag Proceedings of the 1st International Workshop held in Cambridge, U.K., in May/June 96 Infos at URL http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14 (see section 'Privacy and Freedom issues'). 3) To answer your question anyway, I would advise you to take a look at this nice page I've discovered recently (NEW: it's 1 month old!) : http://www-nt.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de/~hartung/watermarkinglinks.html Thanks to Frank Hartung by the way. Here you will find easily several links to past BIBLIOGRAPHIES for past years, and also have on overview of what's the hell is happening !!! Good readings, Sylvain Sylvain Chevreau ChevreauS(a)tce-rdf.fr for now, ChevreauS(a)thmulti.com from June on.

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New Chip Verifies Fingerprints (fwd)
by decius＠ninja.techwood.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Veridicom, a spinoff of Lucent Technologies, just demoed (at > CardTech/SecurTech '97) their chip that can perform fingerprint > recognition/authorization. They plan on selling them for $300 each > (same cost as this face recognition system Gregory's mentioned). The > article doesn't say when they will be available. > > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/chronicle/article.cgi?file=BU41045.DTL& > directory=/chronicle/archive/1997/05/22 I am mailing this to cypherpunks and BCCing the original list because it is not nearly as open. I am putting on my cypherpunk hat here, and although this is not a general discussion list I think this warrants comment. (I would also like to see what the cypherpunks have to say.) Eric Hughes said that "Cryptography is about economics." When I am designing a system, I weigh the cost of securing the system verses the expected loss that will be incurred if the system is not secure. The cellular phone industry decided that it would cost them more to secure their system than it would to swallow the losses. They were wrong, but I will not digress into that. The point here is clear. Security is an economic choice. It is a business decision. Furthermore, if I decide to secure a system, I need only use enough security such that the cost to break that security is equal to the value of that which is being secured. Any additional security is a waste of money. When I am breaking a system I will always attack the weakest link (unless I am doing this for intellectual challenge but that is not really the point here). This is obvious. Lets take a look at a sample Biometric security system: Fingerprints are used to replace the pin codes on an ATM. I am being very general here, but there are four main peices to this system. The banking network itself, which is DES encrypted, the ATM, the biometric system and the human being. Note the contrast with a non-biometric system, which consists of the network, the ATM, and a pin code. Biometrics pull the human into the equation. Cracking DES would cost more than a million dollars. I can't put a value on cracking the ATM, but they are designed to be difficult to open up and most are in places where they are very visible, so the cost is very high. I have not seen anyone present a method for attacking a biometric security device. If you assume that you will have to develop one you are again talking about millions. How about "cracking" the human... How much does a good sturdy knife cost? Less than $20. If I get mugged and the mugger wants access to my bank account all he has to do is chop off the relevant finger. Don't laugh. This *WILL* happen. Biometrics create an general economic incentive for maiming or murdering people. I will take you one further... *When you implement a biometric system you are deciding that the value of that which is being protected is greater than the value of the lives of the people who have access to it.* This is obvious if you look at the trade-offs. You are securing the system such that the easiest way to break it is to kill a person. Obviously this will reduce your instances of fraud, as killing a person is more messy then hacking a pin code. However, because the cost of killing someone is smaller than the value of the object being protected, there are going to be losses. You have to decide that you are capable of swallowing those losses. You have to decide that the value of the decrease in fraud over a non-biometric system is greater than that of the lives of the people who are lost when fraud does occur. This is a despicable situation, but don't think you won't see it. It is probably inevitable now. One additional point. The possibilities for surveilance inherent in biometrics are fearsome. If I managed to compile a large database of people's names, social security numbers, and face prints; I could set up a closed circuit camera system in my store which would provide me with the name, home address, credit, and other information about every person who enters my business, AUTOMATICALLY, without the customers even being cognisant that this is going on. The marketing people will be going nutz over this possibility. I'm going to the drug store for some Pepto... -- */^\* Tom Cross AKA Decius 615 AKA The White Ninja */^\* Decius(a)ninja.techwood.org "If the economic, social and political conditions... do not offer a basis for the realization of individuality, while at the same time people have lost those ties which gave them security... powerful tendencies arise to escape from freedom into submission." -- Erich Fromm

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Re: Why I think Jim Bell is getting railroaded
by Mix 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Before charging to the rescue its a good idea to make sure >that you are rescuing the right person. Government agents >also have the right not to be threatened with murder. Threats are illogical. --Sarin

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Re: SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS
by winsock＠rigel.cyberpass.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Paul Bradley <paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk> wrote: >(Tim wrote) >> Notable example: the Malibu doctor suspected--wrongly, it turns out--of >> growing pot on his ranch. He and his wife were startled by the ninjas >> bursting into their bedroom. The doctor reached for a handgun in his >> nightstand and was sprayed with 9mms from the Heckler and Kock MP-5s of the >> raiders. The estate of the doctor is currently suing the LA County >> Sheriff's Department and other agencies, but you know how those things go. >> I know I shock a lot of people by saying this, but I think those involved >> in the raid should be tried on murder charges and, if found guilty, >> executed promptly. And if the court system won't do this, which it >> obviously won't, then the alternative is <CENSORED CENSORED CENSORED >> CENSORED>. > >This is quite right, the police had no right to be in his house as he had >commited no ethical crime, therefore he merely attempted to defend >himself against people who had broken into his house. If they then shot >him they are guilty of murder, no question about it. The interesting thing is that the envirocrats wanted the land, and the sheriff (who is, BTW, not in jail) got an appraisal on it BEFORE the raid. This case, and not Ruby Ridge, Waco, or The Reichsta...um.. OK City, radicalized me. This man (Donald Scott) did NOTHING to deserve his murder, and the crooks who killed him deserve death. >If the government want a "war on drugs" they can expect a real war, where >the enemy fight back. > >All of those fortunate enough to be living someone where they are legally >entitled to obtain defensive weapons, Lock and load. Yes, and buy components. These will be outlawed before they go for guns as such, in the hope that wear and tear will do their grab for them. Mystrey man

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News about Sun and Elvis
by Kent Crispin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----Forwarded message from "Judas, Roland" <rj(a)medos.de>----- From: "Judas, Roland" <rj(a)medos.de> To: "'firewalls(a)greatcircle.com'" <firewalls(a)GreatCircle.COM> Subject: News about Sun and Elvis Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:36:44 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: firewalls-owner(a)GreatCircle.COM Precedence: bulk --- White House Reviews Sun's Encryption Initiative --- By John Fontana, Communications Week WASHINGTON-The Clinton administration said it is reviewing the relationship between Sun Microsystems and a Russian company that produces a strong encryption product, which Sun is licensing for worldwide distribution. The White House issued a statement last night, saying, "We are reviewing our regulatory posture with Sun to ensure that their arrangement with the Russian encryption company is in compliance with U.S. export controls." The Department of Commerce, which is responsible for export regulations on strong encryption, stressed that the administration was reviewing the relationship and not conducting an investigation, a spokesman said. Last week, Sun, in Mountain View, Calif., told Communications Week that it had licensed an encryption product from Moscow, Russia-based Elvis+ Co., which offers 128-bit keys and would resell it worldwide under the name PC Sunscreen SKIP Elvis+. Sun has approximately a 10 percent equity stake in Elvis+, whose product is based on Sun's Simple Key Management for IP (SKIP) protocol. The specification was published nearly two years ago. Humphrey Polanen, general manager of Sun's security and electronic commerce group, was confident the government would find Sun "in full compliance with the letter of the law." He said a key factor was that Sun offered no technical assistance in the development of the software. U.S. law bars the export of encryption over 56 bits without government approval. Companies seeking to export 56-bit products must also have a system in place within two years for key recovery. Netscape Communications, also of Mountain View, has followed that path with its browser software, but Sun has neither government approval nor a method to recover keys. The administration wants access to keys in cases of criminal investigations. It is concerned that strong encryption products could fall into the hands of terrorists, even though similar products are available from nearly 30 foreign companies. The statement from the White House also said it had not evaluated the product and could not comment on it. If found in violation of export controls, Sun could face civil and/or criminal penalties. Criminal penalties, which would be handed out by the Justice Department, could mean Sun executive officers would spend time in a federal prison. At press time, Sun had not seen the announcement and would not comment. "The administration may have to go after Sun to protect the integrity of its policy," said Marc Rotenberg, the director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "You might see the ,Zimmerman effect,' which would be tremendous public sympathy." Rotenberg is referring to Phillip Zimmerman, who won a battle with the government over his Pretty Good Privacy encryption product, which was distributed free over the Internet. "The White House is at risk by going after a U.S. company for making a good product," Rotenberg said. "This is one more reason to think the administration's cryptography policy is not long for this world." Three bills attacking the administration's policy are being discussed on Capitol Hill, but only one, the Security and Freedom through Encryption Act, has made it out of committee. The bill, which was authored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va), would prohibit mandatory key recovery. President Clinton is opposed to the bill in its current form. -----End of forwarded message----- -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent(a)songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

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Re: Compelling a key (fwd)
by tzeruch＠ceddec.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Why does everyone still have cypherpunks(a)toad.com in their Cc: list, or how can I get it to work so I don't have to edit the headers (back to the procmail manual...) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:17:04 -0400 (EDT) From: tzeruch(a)ceddec.com To: Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> Cc: Jim Choate <ravage(a)EINSTEIN.ssz.com>, cypherpunks(a)toad.com Subject: Re: Compelling a key (fwd) On Wed, 21 May 1997, Tim May wrote: > At 4:45 PM -0800 5/21/97, Jim Choate wrote: > > >> In practice, I think the Washington, D.C. doctor, Elizabeth X, the woman > >> who refused to say where her children were, was held for about 2 years, and > >> that this was the all-time record for a contempt case. She was ultimately > >> released when the court concluded she had no intention of cooperating. > > > >Exactly! It is ENTIRELY up to the individual judge who issued the contempt > >citation. If they are pissed enough 2 years will be nothing. As far as I > >have been able to find there are NO statutes, other than that of a statute > >of limitation for a particular type of crime, that limit how long you can > >sit in jail on contempt. One correction. She was released by a special law passed by the house of representatives after a media blitz about her case. The law only let her go and did not generally limit the period of time people could be held in contempt. It was not the judge, but a legislature trying to quell some outcry without doing any real reform

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Re: spam is a good thing (was Re: Spam IS Free Speech)
by Ross Wright 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On or About 22 May 97 at 13:11, William H. Geiger III wrote: > If given the choice between 2 evils of receiving Spamford > Cyber-momo's crap or going to a metered rate INet I choose Spamford > as the second will not get rid of him. There we go! The all American strive for compromise. Yet, very few people are willing to compromise on this issue, for some reason. I'd like for more people just give it up and come to the realization that the INet is going to be commercial, and no laws can stifle the commerce that goes on here. Or stop Spam. Ross =-=-=-=-=-=- Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: (408) 259-2795

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from BoS: News about Sun and Elvis+
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From the "other shoe" department... Cheers, Bob Hettinga --- begin forwarded text X-Authentication-Warning: jekyll.piermont.com: [[UNIX: localhost]] didn't use HELO protocol To: cryptography(a)c2.net Subject: from BoS: News about Sun and Elvis+ Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 12:58:06 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry(a)piermont.com> Sender: owner-cryptography(a)c2.net I thought this would be of interest. ------- Forwarded Message From: "Judas, Roland" <rj(a)medos.de> Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 09:36:44 +0100 To: best-of-security(a)suburbia.net Subject: BoS: News about Sun and Elvis - --- White House Reviews Sun's Encryption Initiative --- By John Fontana, Communications Week WASHINGTON-The Clinton administration said it is reviewing the relationship between Sun Microsystems and a Russian company that produces a strong encryption product, which Sun is licensing for worldwide distribution. The White House issued a statement last night, saying, "We are reviewing our regulatory posture with Sun to ensure that their arrangement with the Russian encryption company is in compliance with U.S. export controls." The Department of Commerce, which is responsible for export regulations on strong encryption, stressed that the administration was reviewing the relationship and not conducting an investigation, a spokesman said. Last week, Sun, in Mountain View, Calif., told Communications Week that it had licensed an encryption product from Moscow, Russia-based Elvis+ Co., which offers 128-bit keys and would resell it worldwide under the name PC Sunscreen SKIP Elvis+. Sun has approximately a 10 percent equity stake in Elvis+, whose product is based on Sun's Simple Key Management for IP (SKIP) protocol. The specification was published nearly two years ago. Humphrey Polanen, general manager of Sun's security and electronic commerce group, was confident the government would find Sun "in full compliance with the letter of the law." He said a key factor was that Sun offered no technical assistance in the development of the software. U.S. law bars the export of encryption over 56 bits without government approval. Companies seeking to export 56-bit products must also have a system in place within two years for key recovery. Netscape Communications, also of Mountain View, has followed that path with its browser software, but Sun has neither government approval nor a method to recover keys. The administration wants access to keys in cases of criminal investigations. It is concerned that strong encryption products could fall into the hands of terrorists, even though similar products are available from nearly 30 foreign companies. The statement from the White House also said it had not evaluated the product and could not comment on it. If found in violation of export controls, Sun could face civil and/or criminal penalties. Criminal penalties, which would be handed out by the Justice Department, could mean Sun executive officers would spend time in a federal prison. At press time, Sun had not seen the announcement and would not comment. "The administration may have to go after Sun to protect the integrity of its policy," said Marc Rotenberg, the director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. "You might see the ,Zimmerman effect,' which would be tremendous public sympathy." Rotenberg is referring to Phillip Zimmerman, who won a battle with the government over his Pretty Good Privacy encryption product, which was distributed free over the Internet. "The White House is at risk by going after a U.S. company for making a good product," Rotenberg said. "This is one more reason to think the administration's cryptography policy is not long for this world." Three bills attacking the administration's policy are being discussed on Capitol Hill, but only one, the Security and Freedom through Encryption Act, has made it out of committee. The bill, which was authored by Rep. Bob Goodlatte (R-Va), would prohibit mandatory key recovery. President Clinton is opposed to the bill in its current form. ------- End of Forwarded Message --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

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Jim Bell accused of "spamming"
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I find it symptomatic that the enemies of free speech use "spam" as a generic term for any kind of speech they don't like. I don't think the following piece needs much commentary, but it probably will. Path: altavista!news1.digital.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.108.254.3!news.teleport xtm!kelly.teleport.com!jh From: Jack Hammer <jh(a)teleport.com> Newsgroups: or.politics,wash.politics,alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.tom-leykis Subject: IRS SAYS INTERNET SPAMMER SABOTEUR (fwd) Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:15:35 -0700 Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 Lines: 155 Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.970521171344.16635E-100000(a)kelly.teleport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: kelly.teleport.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Xref: altavista or.politics:25633 alt.rush-limbaugh:79911 alt.fan.tom-leykis:5 xt Subject: IRS SAYS INTERNET SPAMMER SABOTEUR Government affidavit says an Internet author plotted to sabotage an Oregon 9-1-1 computer and poison city water with botulism. VANCOUVER, Wash.- Is there any truth to the rumour that Assassination Politics (AP) author Jim Bell, who was arrested here Friday by the Internal Revenue Service, plotted with Portland, Oregon 9-1-1 overseer Greg Daly to poison the Bull Run resevoir with botulism made from green beans, and shut down the 9-1-1 emergency center's computers by dumping carbon fibers into the air vents? The IRS is accusing Vancouver resident James Dalton Bell, 38, of conspiring to overthrow the U.S. government. He appeared Monday afternoon in U.S. Distict Court in Tacoma and was accused in an 18-page affidavit. AP is a Murder Inc. like plot about a risk-free way of rewarding assassins through a lottery. Bell was seen frequenting local Libertarian functions and a so-called common law court. The murder conspiracy was applauded by some high ranking Libertarians. The plot has circulated widely on the Internet. An April search warrant accused Bell of directly soliciting others to murder. AP would supposedly protect the identity of the murderers. The strategy, which Bell says he wrote and posted solely for speculation, involves uses of encryption to predict and confirm assassinations and electronic digital cash to pay for the gruesome killings. Criticism of AP predicted a reign of anarchy and terror should the plan be allowed to develop. Bell responded to criticism personally and with vehemence. Federal agents raided Bell's Vancouver home April 1 and then accused him of obstructing government officers, and employees, and using false Social Security numbers. Bell is far more dangerous than the charges suggest, the affidavit filed by IRS Inspector Phillip G. Scoff said. Scott's affidavit said Bell, who has a chemistry degree from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, had discussions about using carbon fiber particles to attack computer systems with Greg Daly, a friend who is an electronics specialist overseeing Portland's 9-1-1 communications center. "Daly stated that he and Bell had 'laughed' about attacking the 9-1-1 center with the fiber," the affidavit said. The affidavit went on to say that Daly also told IRS agents that he had hypothetical discussions with Bell about contaminating water supplies and about making the botulism virus from green beans. In the April 17 and 18 intertiews with IRS agents, Daly admitted he had keys to Portland's pristine alpine watershed and direct access to the Portland water treatment facilities. Daly tried to defend himself Monday by saying that the conversations he and Bell had were "merely intellectual fun-and-games discussions" between old friends who enjoy technical things. But Daly also described his friend of 15 years as "bit of an odd unit". And during the interview Daly appeared to crack and turn state's evidence when Daly offered to "rat (Bell) out in a heartbeat." The investigation had been expanding Thursday when IRS agents searched the home of another friend of Bell's, merchant marine radio man Robert East. Among items seized in the East address raid was a three foot length of carbon fiber. The IRS affidavit reported that East told agents he and Bell had discussed "the possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents of a federal building" to its computers and about using the fiber against the IRS. Bell was recently published in The Oregonian daily newspaper where he appeared to avoid an explanation of his plan, writing mostly of what he predicted would be AP's positive impact. Bell did not say in the article how exactly AP would be implemented, who could be killed by it or even why it was called Assassination Politics. But the Internet version, repetively posted for more than a year on libertarian e-mail lists and newsgroups, revealed a darker vision. Some recipients of Bell's complained of the excessive "spamming", others of AP's ethical lapses. The Oregonian seemed to accept Bell's story without question, and Bell's idea was defended by some Libertarians. Responding to the arrest, Tonie Nathan, the first woman and only Libertarian to receive an electoral vote for Vice President, appeared to endorse Bell's assassination plan. "I find them basically rational, mind-opening, intellectually stimulating," she wrote Tuesday. She went on to say that AP "should be considered." Found inside what the IRS reports was Bell's car were documents from the Multnomah County Common Law Court (MCCLC), a group that elects themselves the case judges and purports to administer "common law." Bell was seen at a court meeting held in a Portland pizza parlour back in February. Bell has denied ownership of the car. The self-appointed court met in an all-you-can-eat buffet where it put Attorney General Janet Reno, IRS Commisssioner Margaret Richardson and other IRS officials on trial. The mock trial was the result of a complaint by Oregon resident Louis Wispell, one of the MCCLC "Justices." It has been observed in this "court" that complainants can select their judges from the buffet line, some who confessed to stealing food, having snuck past the cashier on the pretense of being on the camera crew. The judges have also been observed to switch places with complainants in other meetings of the MCCLC in trhe basement of a Russian church. The MCCLC has recently been in the news in regards to charges of its clerk, Richard Lancial, and his son, Thor Lancial, of simulating court process. Charles Bruce Stewart is the Chief Justice of that court and also the owner of an e-mail list, nwlibertarians(a)teleport.com, on which Bell posted much of his material. Stewart insists his court is constitutional. The IRS says Bell has a history of tax disputes with them and reportedly has a large, outstanding, unpaid balance. Friday was set for Bell's detention and preliminary hearing. The government has asked that Bell be held without ball because he is a danger to the community, and reportedly is seeking a grand Jury indictment. From your friend, Your best friend, Your only friend, Jack Hammer ;-) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Spam complaints 14 times worse than Spam.
by Ross Wright 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This was from: Tasty Bits From The Technology Front Your Host: Keith Dawson This issue: <URL:http://www.tbtf.com/archive/05-22-97.html> ..Mailing-list spammers.. Email spam is the favorite gripe of most Netizens, excepting the spammers. Congress is considering legislation [25] to limit the practice of sending unwanted commercial email in bulk. Not everyone thinks this is a good idea. See [26] for a thread from an ongoing debate on Declan McCullagh's fight-censorship mailing list. George Matyjewicz <mosaic1(a)ix.netcom.com> did a modest experiment on a week's worth of his email -- he is on 56 mailing lists and gets around 200 messages a day -- to gauge how widespread the problem actually is. Matyjewicz posted these results: week avg/day Total messages 1,354 193.4 Spam messages 10 1.4 < 1 % Spam complaints 189 27.0 14 % Mailing-list owners share information on the addresses from which commercial spam messages originate. Recently Alexander Verbraeck <A.Verbraeck(a)duticai.twi.tudelft.nl> posted a particularly compre- hensive list of purported spammers. I have taken the liberty of preserving a snapshot on the TBTF archive [27], sorted both by email address and by "virulence" -- the total number of messages sent by each spammer over a given time period to two of Verbraeck's lists. Thanks to Tom Parmenter <tompar(a)world.std.com> for the tip. [25] <URL:http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C10875%2C00.html> [26] <URL:http://www.tbtf.com/resource/to-ban-spam.html> [27] <URL:http://www.tbtf.com/resource/spammers.html> =-=-=-=-=-=- Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: (408) 259-2795

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Western Union & IRS
by Ray Arachelian 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I donno if this is news or not, but having just visited one of these places, I noticed prominently place warning signs that transfers over $3K are reported to the IRS including your SSN, effective May 28 of this year or something... =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Ray Arachelian | "Boy meets beer. Boy drinks Beer, |./|\. ..\|/..|sunder(a)sundernet.com| Boy gets another beer!" |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ | |\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die. |..... ======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================

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Spam laws threaten remailers?
by nobody＠hidden.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

See http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/ My bill merely provides a means for Internet users to filter out e-mails that they do not wish to receive by requiring that senders of unsolicited e-mails to include Advertisement as the first word of the subject line and that the real street address, e-mail address and a telephone number be contained within the body of the message. Routing information that accompanies the message must also be accurate. Could this be the end of remailers?

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Re: "You have the right to remain silent" (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 15:08:27 -0400 > To: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii(a)amaranth.com>, cypherpunks(a)toad.com > Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent" > they can't order you to talk to them. They can arrest you with probable > cause > and detain you briefly for purposes of investigation. They can arrest you at will w/ or w/o probable cause. If they can't produce probable cause at your hearing then a writ of habeas corpus comes into play. They can't CHARGE you without probable cause, minor but important distinction. As I understand it, the charges that are recorded when you first go to the police station are not 'official' until your hearing and a judge signs the paperwork. The police can even arrest you as a witness or for 'protective custody' and then even the habeas corpus gets murky because no charges are filed. If they can convince a judge to go along they can even hold you in communicado. > They can ask you for > your name and you may have to supply it, According to the 5th(?) Federal District you don't even have to do that unless you are driving a vehicle or otherwise operating under a public license. > Since cops are not judges, This particular point if kept in mind changes the interpretation of the Constitution considerably. It also puts such actions as making it illegal for citizens to own assault weapons but the police can questionable since the constitution does not draw a distinction between law enforcement and the citizenry, as it does with the judicial, legistlative and executive bodies. It therefore follows that if I as Joe Citizen can't do it then a police officer can't either since they have no constitutional rights that I don't and the 10th Amendment prohibits expansion of federal power (and by extension of the 14th, states) by anything other than that proscribed in the constitution. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Use a cipher, go to jail
by Michael Wilson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Follow the link: http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/052297/info24_9595.html --------------------------------------------------------------------------- FBI says hacker sold 100,000 credit card numbers --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net Copyright ) 1997 The Associated Press SAN FRANCISCO (May 22, 1997 9:13 p.m. EDT) -- A clever hacker slipped into a major Internet provider and gathered 100,000 credit card numbers along with enough information to use them, the FBI said Thursday. Carlos Felipe Salgado, Jr., 36, who used the online name "Smak," allegedly inserted a program that gathered the credit information from a dozen companies selling products over the Internet, said FBI spokesman George Grotz. ---- Said hacker used a sniffer to gather the numbers, and as part of the process, he encrypted the database he sold to an undercover agent. Anyone care to take any bets on whether he shows up as a case for the 'use a cipher to commit a crime' argument?

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Re: "You have the right to remain silent" (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, Forwarded message: > From: "Willaim H. Geiger III" <whgiii(a)amaranth.com> > Date: Thu, 22 May 97 08:46:56 -0500 > Subject: Re: "You have the right to remain silent" > 1) Under the 5th Amendment one is not required to give any assistance to > the police in a criminal investegation. Not exactly true. The police can take various body samples and other 'physical characteristics' (eg hand writing) for determination of issues involved in a case without you being able to refuse under the 5th. Also, if you are not being accussed of any crime then the 5th can't protect you, unless you want to admit tacit involvment in some criminal activity. Which I am sure to some mindsets is sufficient probable cause. In many states, such as Texas, citizenry are required by law to report any commission of a felony. Not doing so can itself be a felony. Most swords cut both ways... An interesting aspect of the 5th and physical sample taking is the way the line is drawn between what is permitted and what isn't. Historicaly it has been just fine for a cop to shove his finger down your throat to grab that black molly but verboten to pump your stomach. It is generaly felt that pumping your stomach is 'too' invasive. What I would like to know is what is the record since that ruling of the farthest down somebodies throat evidence has been legaly removed from and beyond which its legitimacy is consistently denied. Interesting issue regarding fingerprints for drivers license and the 5th that has to my research remained untested is that the fingerprints were taken while under no suggestion of wrongdoing and with no Miranda. Yet these can be used as evidence in criminal cases even at the federal level. Now it might be argued that if not explicitly stated there is an implicit contract with the state government and the individual regarding the use in criminal proceedings. But since the 14th does not work in reverse there can not be any implicit federal contract. Can the interstate commerce clause be extended to this? > 2) That the Ramsey's were prime suspects after 48hrs and no suspect was > found. They were prime suspects the moment the operator answered the 911 line. > 3) That this was SOP for the LEA's to go after family members/friends of a > murder victim even though, on average, 1/3 of murders in the US are > commited by strangers and this figure is incresing. Meaning that 66% of the time they will get the culprit. Sounds like a good strategy to me for clearing 66% of the cases quickly. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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"You have the right to remain silent" (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:03:11 -0800 > From: Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> > Subject: "You have the right to remain silent" > >The 5th is meant to apply ONLY to persons being accussed of a crime, it is > >not nor was it ever meant to protect non-accussed persons from turning over > >evidence of criminal acts. > > So you are saying the police may compel any and all information from > someone just so long as that person has not been formally accused of a > crime? If they ask you questions regarding the commission of a crime the 5th will not protect you unless you were involved. The flip side to this that protects this 'hole' from being catastrophic is that you don't have to talk to the police at all unless accussed of a crime. They most certainly can take physical evidence from 3rd parties (ie hostile witnesses) which they believe are involved in some manner with the crime (ie entering your apartment to track the path of a bullet in the hopes of retrieving it). Refusing to answer the questions of the prosecutor while under oath has its own consequences. What really keeps it from getting out of hand is the cost of interviewing and calling all possible witnesses to some crime. Just imagine calling everyone on the floor of a murder as SOP. > The Miranda precedent ("you have the right to remain silent...") > establishes that someone under arrest may remain silent. And someone _not_ > under arrest is under no obligation to cooperate, unless subpoenaed, right? As I understand it that is correct. > The latest example being the Ramsey case in Boulder ("Home of PGP"). Much > is made of the fact that the Ramseys, not being under arrest, are not > required to *say anything* to the police. (Left unanswered is why innocent > parents whose daughter has been brutally murdered would choose to say > nothing to the police...even I, a skeptic about much that modern cops are > involved in, am suspicious of the Ramseys for their noncooperativeness.) If they are truly innocent, what could they possibly have to say other than "Please find the killer of our daughter" and "We didn't do it." Innocent people have little to say, the guilty need to convince us of their innocence. "Me thinks he protest too much." I have no idea Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Re: Spam laws threaten remailers?
by Ross Wright 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On or About 22 May 97 at 15:25, Greg Broiles wrote: > Both of the anti-spam bills that I've seen (CAUCE and Murkowski's) > are poorly drafted - they're both overbroad and underinclusive. I > don't think they're necessarily constitutionally "overbroad", but > they haven't been written by people with a good understanding of the > technical issues. > > As I read both bills, they'll prohibit behavior pretty universally > considered legitimate - e.g., including a link to a web site in your > .signature which happens to sell a product or service, for example. This is really going too far!!! I was told, when I first got on-line, that this was a "polite" way to get your product or service out there, without spamming. By posting on-topic replies to usenet and high traffic mailing lists, like this one... Shit, I hate this "one bad kid gets the rest of the class in trouble" mentality. I am really pissed at this whole issue and the goverment trying to get it's grubby paws on the net any way they can! I am also irked at the public's desire for this government intervention. > I think it'd make more sense to solve this problem technically, > and/or carefully think about the legal framework appropriate for > governing the flow of data between computers. (There are also sticky > First Amendment issues here.) You got that right. > Ugh. > Arrrrgh. Ross =-=-=-=-=-=- Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: (408) 259-2795

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V-Chips for the Internet
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

A White House press briefing today describes Clinton's plan for providing V-chips for parents to control childrens' access to the Internet. Technology is being developed for that purpose. http://jya.com/wh052297.txt Quote: MS. LEWIS: It's our understanding, and we just checked this with people at the White House who know much more about technology than all of us put together, that there is in fact technology being developed that would serve as the equivalent of a V-chip for the Internet, and we think that's what the President referred to. Q Clinton has talked before about giving parents ways to protect their children on the Internet, but has he ever before suggested the idea of a V-chip for the Internet? MS. LEWIS: Not that we know of, but we know -- as is clear, I think, from his wording, he is aware that the technology has been developing. End quote.

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Police & military access
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, It occured to me that if the police have no civil liberties extending beyond that of a citizen and citizens are not legaly permitted access to military hardware then neither should the police. If this applied then it would not be legal for police to have access to any sort of communication or encryption technology that was not available to the normal citizen. If a police officer can buy body armor and automatic weapons for self defence then so can a citizen. If a police officer can search a suspect for weapons "to protect their person" and confiscate or otherwise remove them from the immediate vicinity then a normal citizen should require a police officer to do the same. In other words, once it is established that the suspect is not armed the police officer should be required to place their weapon in their vehicle or othewise secure it off their person. etc. etc. So, the question of the hour is: Do police have any civil rights not endowed to a individual citizen? Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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index.html
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

CNN logo US navbar Infoseek/Big Yellow Pathfinder/Warner Bros Main banner Samsung. Meeting the challenge. rule WOMAN TRIES TO SELL KIDNEY TO PAY BILL sparrow May 22, 1997 Web posted at: 10:59 a.m. EDT (1459 GMT) ST. PETERSBURG, Florida (CNN) -- Faced with a $25,000 bill for gall bladder surgery, a Florida woman placed an ad in a local newspaper to sell her kidney to cover the surgery. But there's a big problem with her plan: It's illegal. "KIDNEY Runs good, Taking offers. $30,000/obo," read the advertisement in this week's St. Petersburg Times. Ruth Sparrow isn't joking either. She has been drinking buckets of water for more than two months to clean out the organ, prepping it for donation. "I'm not doing it for a profit," she told CNN-affiliate WTVT in Tampa. "You're trading a damn kidney for a gall bladder." icon (85K/6 sec. AIFF or WAV sound) Sparrow, a 55-year-old nurse, said she told doctors before the surgery that she would be unable to pay the bill and offered to pay the bill by donating her kidney. The offer was refused, she said. movie icon (331K/28 sec. QuickTime movie) Federal and state laws prohibit anyone from offering buy or sell a human organ or tissue. In Florida, the offense is a second-degree felony. medical.center Jean Layne of Lifelink of Florida, a tissue recovery organization, explained that the reason for the law is "not to disadvantage families who do not have a lot of money, allowing everyone equal access to transplantation." Bayfront Medical Center, where the gall bladder surgery was performed, was stunned when notified of the ad. It said Sparrow owes about $17,000 on the bill and that the medical center is "trying to get her qualified for some type of assistance." Sparrow dropped her medical insurance four years ago because she could not afford the $4,000-a-year premium. She said it's unfair that taxpayers pick up the tab for criminals' medical expenses, while she could get punished for her tactic. icon (145K/12 sec. AIFF or WAV sound) She also emphasized that she did not know it was illegal to run the ad. "I just want to live in my own little hovel and pay my bills like everybody else," she said. "I don't want to owe anybody." From CNN-affiliate WTVT Reporter Stan Jayson rule CNN Plus * Consumer News - Fitness and Health Related story: * Florida man offers to 'lease' a kidney - April 2, 1997 Related sites: Note: Pages will open in a new browser window * The St. Petersburg Times * Bayfront Medical Center * United Network for Organ Sharing Transplantation Information Site * American Share Foundation - organ donation and transplantation information External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive. rule Message Boards Sound off on our message boards Tell us what you think! You said it... [INLINE] Samsung. Meeting the challenge. rule To the top © 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Terms under which this service is provided to you.

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More stories from the Bell jar...
by Alan Olsen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- This story is from the Oregonian May 22, 1997 Page D3: Arrest solves mystery of law office stink bomb A federal investigation that led to the arrest of James Dalton Bell of Vancouver appears to have solved a longtime mystery regarding a stink bomb attack in a downtown Portland law office. In late April 1984, someone broke into law offices at 1123 S. W. Yamhill St. and poured a liquid on a hallway run that was so odorous it made at least one of the lawyers who smelled it vomit twice. At the time, Nick Albrecht, who still practices law there, said the skunklike scent, called mercaptan, was so overpowering that he had to go home because he could not stop gagging. The target of the stink bomb attack was lawyer C. Douglas Oliver, who now lives in Southern California and won't discuss the incident. Bell was arrested Friday on a federal complaint charging him with obstructing and impeding the Internal Revenue Service and the use of false Social Security numbers. The complaint said that documents found on Bell's computer boasted of the mercaptan attack on the office of a Portland lawyer who had sued him. The lawyer was Oliver. Albrecht said Oliver had suspected that Bell might have been behind the mercaptan attack, but could never prove it. The federal complaint also charged Bell with the March 16 mercaptan attack on the IRS offices in the federal office building in Vancouver. On the following day, when employees returned to work after the weekend, several of them had to be placed on leave because the smell was so powerful, the complaint said. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 5.0 beta Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBM4USfeQCP3v30CeZAQGNJgf+O8L65Bc6ce1jhUtUpjQS1kas2WU3TlNm l/wxZt+kNhRV58VnCLYg1JWsUhoifM6JK+v2QU727SVHmAy+ktlovL43oKsgK7EE Vg4WAj9A0rMqKIzNU/0PjNyjPtdsUEbxaZisIbWPONdm/sx1x9hhbDbA5T7sayyW 6HLms5v8n4OQ9URQsnNNpPme6cKTiMFnOk0qw2+0mQUska4q6fLgoEn+vxOYsDAP WPQHaF7EEWHr/8eDRYZP+GgaOtI2pLJvuLGXeebf/0+BEAmTNS6AUuAwt2ogmxCx TPGni0IRhODol5swhZlKAklK7si548Unm90o2o+Lg3JvFqg0SQs/Vg== =7KT2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- | "Bill Clinton - Bringing back the sixties one Nixon at a time." | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan(a)ctrl-alt-del.com|

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Re: Spam Prevention System?
by lucifer＠dhp.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I was wondering if perhaps a way to minimize the hassle with sitting on one's thumb while waiting for unwanted email to download could be eased by an email program which retreived only headers, allowed you to delete the unwanted ones, and then retrieve the wanted ones, deleting the rest. Is this feasible?

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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless (was Wine Politics Again!)
by Blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Paul Bradley wrote: >I can see why you might say this, but I must ask why we need imaginative >ideas? - The old ones, involving guns and other weapons sound OK to me. >If you really want imaginative ideas go ask Jim Bell, his carbon fibres >idea was sure one I`d never heard of before. [and] >Your style of discourse in your post suggests you believe that the most >effective way to go about achieving a better society and a better form of >government is the reform the present system. ................................................................ We need imaginative ideas because of being the New, Improved, Techno-Elite. Why use crude, primitive, outdated methods, when you can use new, educated, modern ones. heh. Perhaps because of all the history I've read, coupled with (admittedly limited) economic studies, I'm not inclined towards simple violence as the best solution. But this is only because it is, indeed, quite difficult to deliver justice precisely; it is easy to make mistakes about who is the real enemy and instead extinguish the wrong target, thus complicating further the attempts at reestablishing normality (I have read of instances like this, where the wrong person or group was destroyed by mistake, creating havoc without solving the real problem). What I think would be an effective way to achieve a better society & government is to abandon both of them. As in the financial markets, one's attention should be removed from failing, troublesome political elements and placed instead on things/systems which *are* rewarding. The available energies and resources which are being wasted would provide better returns if applied/invested in real "growth" enterprises. Of course, most people aren't ready to do this just immediately, and do wish to promote the existence of both, as they fear the consequences of living without these comforting concepts. There are presently many cities in the U.S. and even, surprisingly, sectors of foreign governments which are privatizing many of their services. This is a teeny step for mankind, yet the end result is that it takes away the excuse of the main governing agencies for the "need" to extract more & more tax moneys for services which aren't working anyway. As soon as everyone has "seen" what has been accomplished by contracting services out & disbanding the entrenched government departments, everyone realizes that yes, there are alternatives to government-run services, and no, society won't die tomorrow from the distance created between the new arrangements and the central command structure. You couldn't have argued most people into this perception, however; they could not have imagined it. It is also a fact that many corporations are providing more and more "benefits" to their employees (some as 'required by law' of course), taking on such responsibilities in regard of the welfare of their employees as resembles a small government. This has the effect of shifting the attention of many people away from what governments can do for them, to what employment in certain companies can deliver. As more individuals begin to look to their employment/employers for these additional benefits, their expectations are shifted accordingly away from a large central body administering to their welfare. This is not a clean weaning away, and it is not without its own inherent errors in the reasons for its existence or in the ways in which these services are conducted/administered (at least,not by libertarian/anarchic standards). But the result is that it takes away from governments another area of responsibility, even while the government positions itself as the commander of what companies will be forced to do for their employees. As a matter of fact, what has been happening is that large companies are coming into competition with governments as "providers". Many people in general, as well as on this list, sometimes wonder who is the more powerful or evil: governments or corporations. Regardless, as corporations take responsibilities away from central bodies, these powers are distributed out to the smaller financial organizations. These little clones then begin to take on a life of their own and begin to challenge the large parent (this makes me think of Sun, which is now in effect challenging the export laws without asking for permission and the U.S.gov has to determine what the right thing is to do about it). These are tug&pull operations; there are many large barks and much gnashing of teeth. But the ones with the money have clout and bargaining power, as without them the U.S. cannot be a "world leader" (a term the meaning of which is slowly dissolving away as well). One day it will transpire that employees will look to their employers for benefits, rather than to a large central Bureau of Disorganization. Business organizations will be the means by which individuals arrange to get their life's provisions (strange that this should presently be the exception, rather than the norm). Individual contractors will continue to make their own short-term arrangements, negotiating for the kind of remuneration which they will accept in exchange for their work. One can extrapolate from that any further developments towards individual leverage in such arrangements. Some people fear that this will only change the face of the Master and not improve the situation at all. But they forget that as long as they can change employers, as long as they are not coerced into working for any particular company, they can not only go where they find it best for themselves, but they can of course create their own business organzation. (duh) This isn't really an idea for an alternative to violence; more of a presentation of an existing trend which could obviate the need for armed confrontation and explosive plans of action. It does not take away the need to always be prepared for self-defense (but there are many ways to defend oneself); it does not take away from the need to let PowerMongers know that individuals are willing & able to use destructive means to prevent totalitarians from assimilating everyone into an amorphous mass of subservient bodies. But it does require perspective into the future, of imagining practical developments from current trends, of researching the possibilities for positive outcomes. It requires that one think in terms of practicality more than in terms of "sticking it to them". But then some people are looking for a good fight, too (on both sides). I just personally wouldn't want to be there when they clash. .. Blanc

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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless (was Wine Politics Again!)
by Blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Paul Bradley wrote: >I can see why you might say this, but I must ask why we need imaginative >ideas? - The old ones, involving guns and other weapons sound OK to me. >If you really want imaginative ideas go ask Jim Bell, his carbon fibres >idea was sure one I`d never heard of before. [and] >Your style of discourse in your post suggests you believe that the most >effective way to go about achieving a better society and a better form of >government is the reform the present system. ................................................................ We need imaginative ideas because of being the New, Improved, Techno-Elite. Why use crude, primitive, outdated methods, when you can use new, educated, modern ones. heh. Perhaps because of all the history I've read, coupled with (admittedly limited) economic studies, I'm not inclined towards simple violence as the best solution. But this is only because it is, indeed, quite difficult to deliver justice precisely; it is easy to make mistakes about who is the real enemy and instead extinguish the wrong target, thus complicating further the attempts at reestablishing normality (I have read of instances like this, where the wrong person or group was destroyed by mistake, creating havoc without solving the real problem). What I think would be an effective way to achieve a better society & government is to abandon both of them. As in the financial markets, one's attention should be removed from failing, troublesome political elements and placed instead on things/systems which *are* rewarding. The available energies and resources which are being wasted would provide better returns if applied/invested in real "growth" enterprises. Of course, most people aren't ready to do this just immediately, and do wish to promote the existence of both, as they fear the consequences of living without these comforting concepts. There are presently many cities in the U.S. and even, surprisingly, sectors of foreign governments which are privatizing many of their services. This is a teeny step for mankind, yet the end result is that it takes away the excuse of the main governing agencies for the "need" to extract more & more tax moneys for services which aren't working anyway. As soon as everyone has "seen" what has been accomplished by contracting services out & disbanding the entrenched government departments, everyone realizes that yes, there are alternatives to government-run services, and no, society won't die tomorrow from the distance created between the new arrangements and the central command structure. You couldn't have argued most people into this perception, however; they could not have imagined it. It is also a fact that many corporations are providing more and more "benefits" to their employees (some as 'required by law' of course), taking on such responsibilities in regard of the welfare of their employees as resembles a small government. This has the effect of shifting the attention of many people away from what governments can do for them, to what employment in certain companies can deliver. As more individuals begin to look to their employment/employers for these additional benefits, their expectations are shifted accordingly away from a large central body administering to their welfare. This is not a clean weaning away, and it is not without its own inherent errors in the reasons for its existence or in the ways in which these services are conducted/administered (at least,not by libertarian/anarchic standards). But the result is that it takes away from governments another area of responsibility, even while the government positions itself as the commander of what companies will be forced to do for their employees. As a matter of fact, what has been happening is that large companies are coming into competition with governments as "providers". Many people in general, as well as on this list, sometimes wonder who is the more powerful or evil: governments or corporations. Regardless, as corporations take responsibilities away from central bodies, these powers are distributed out to the smaller financial organizations. These little clones then begin to take on a life of their own and begin to challenge the large parent (this makes me think of Sun, which is now in effect challenging the export laws without asking for permission and the U.S.gov has to determine what the right thing is to do about it). These are tug&pull operations; there are many large barks and much gnashing of teeth. But the ones with the money have clout and bargaining power, as without them the U.S. cannot be a "world leader" (a term the meaning of which is slowly dissolving away as well). One day it will transpire that employees will look to their employers for benefits, rather than to a large central Bureau of Disorganization. Business organizations will be the means by which individuals arrange to get their life's provisions (strange that this should presently be the exception, rather than the norm). Individual contractors will continue to make their own short-term arrangements, negotiating for the kind of remuneration which they will accept in exchange for their work. One can extrapolate from that any further developments towards individual leverage in such arrangements. Some people fear that this will only change the face of the Master and not improve the situation at all. But they forget that as long as they can change employers, as long as they are not coerced into working for any particular company, they can not only go where they find it best for themselves, but they can of course create their own business organzation. (duh) This isn't really an idea for an alternative to violence; more of a presentation of an existing trend which could obviate the need for armed confrontation and explosive plans of action. It does not take away the need to always be prepared for self-defense (but there are many ways to defend oneself); it does not take away from the need to let PowerMongers know that individuals are willing & able to use destructive means to prevent totalitarians from assimilating everyone into an amorphous mass of subservient bodies. But it does require perspective into the future, of imagining practical developments from current trends, of researching the possibilities for positive outcomes. It requires that one think in terms of practicality more than in terms of "sticking it to them". But then some people are looking for a good fight, too (on both sides). I just personally wouldn't want to be there when they clash. .. Blanc

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Re: FCPUNX:The USA is the world's biggest terrorist state
by jamesd＠echeque.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 02:56 PM 5/21/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote: > The US is in very real danger of reaping the same sort of maelstrom that > vanquished the Romans. They were also very powerful, with tentacles > reaching almost to the limits of their known world, before a combination of > internal decay and dissention and reprisal from those vanquished put them > asunder. Regrettably, this depiction of the fall of the Roman Empire is incorrect. During the last period of the Roman empire in the west, the empire was both very weak, and extraordinarily brutal to its subjects, torturing to death huge numbers of people on a scale no seen again until the twentieth century. Despite this they never encountered any resistance from their terrorized subjects. Only free people , and people who recently were comparatively free, rebel. A world government would not fall until it had tortured to death such a large proportion of the population that there was enough wilderness to protect runaways, or until its technological level fell so low that its communications stopped working. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd(a)echeque.com

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Re: Crypto use to foil law enforcement?
by Carl Ellison 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 02:36 AM 5/19/97 -0700, Greg Broiles wrote: >I ran across this entry in the Congressional Record which discusses several >examples where encryption was discovered in the course of a law enforcement >investigation. > >[Congressional Record: September 18, 1996 (Senate)][Page S10882-S10886] > >[...] > >Mr. GRASSLEY. Mr. President, I'm pleased that the Senate has passed >the eonomic espionage bill. This is an important measure that I believe [...] > The third case, however, especially illustrates the seriousness of >decryption problems--determining the unique key or in this case, >password from a large number of possibilities. According to Agent >Davis, a mere 4 character password has 1.9 million possibilities due to >the number of keyboard characters. Can you imagine how difficult it >must be to figure a short, 4 character password. What if the password >were 10 characters or 20 or more? It's easy to see why criminals are >moving toward password protection for their records. With the congress so woefully uninformed that they confuse password protection with cryptography and naive enough to believe that 1.9E6 possibilities represents a serious roadblock to entry, it looks like we have a major education effort to perform. It is interesting that there were no examples in this summary of crypto used for communications -- but that's completely consistent with what we've been hearing all along. - Carl +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Carl M. Ellison cme(a)cybercash.com http://www.clark.net/pub/cme | |CyberCash, Inc. http://www.cybercash.com/ | |207 Grindall Street PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 | |Baltimore MD 21230-4103 T:(410) 727-4288 F:(410)727-4293 | +------------------------------------------------------------------+

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Re: LSE UK crypto politics conference
by Carl Ellison 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:03 PM 5/20/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote: >Panel: Carl Ellison, legal advisor to GLIC (forget name), Nigel >Hickson DTI, someone from TIS (?) who spoke too quitely. Chair was >Caspar Bowden, Scientists for Labour. The person from TIS was Brian Gladman. BTW, he wrote an open letter response to the DTI proposal which is on the web from one of the standard Privacy sites. - Carl +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Carl M. Ellison cme(a)cybercash.com http://www.clark.net/pub/cme | |CyberCash, Inc. http://www.cybercash.com/ | |207 Grindall Street PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 | |Baltimore MD 21230-4103 T:(410) 727-4288 F:(410)727-4293 | +------------------------------------------------------------------+

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reporting standards and Jim Bell
by Adam Back 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I noticed an example of the sort of reporting standards which the news media is sinking to in reporting on Jim Bell's case... observe these two quotes: The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1: : Daly described his friend of 15 years as a "bit of an odd unit" but never : dangerous and never serious about attacking the 9-1-1 systems or the : Bull Run watershed. : : "I'd rat him out in a heartbeat for that," Daly said. So... Daly considered Jim to be merely discussing technical feasibility of attacks, something we do every day on cpunks. Daly says if he had ever considered Jim was thinking of carrying out any of the hypothetical attacks, that he would have reported him instantly. OK... now this other quote from another news story (forwarded by Dimitri to the list from a post in or.politics quoting some newspaper). : And during the interview Daly appeared to crack and turn state's : evidence when Daly offered to "rat (Bell) out in a heartbeat." Sounds like a quote of the same comment by Daly. Sounds like the newspaper(s) in question are having fun, creatively misquoting, and fabricating to work up a story. Not knowing the truth behind any of this stuff, it makes one wonder how much truth there is in the other details of the story as reported by the gutter press. I noticed someone called "the Oregonian" the local fishwrap... presumably implying it is one of those sensationalist news-fiction newspapers, which are continually being sued for liable for printing fictitious garbage about media personalities. Perhaps similar to the UK "the Sun", etc. (a combination of titilating fictional "gossip" and nude pin ups, populist news for the masses). Adam -- Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/ print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

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Re: Not that I'm a troublemaker, but...
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I was watching the national news broadcast a picture of the key to the Ryder truck that was purportedly found near where McVeigh's car was allegedly parked. I thought it would be an interesting project for someone with the proper technological tools to take the picture and add a graphic of the "bloody glove" beside it. Key Asscrole

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Quotation for 5/23/97
by Rick Osborne 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

________________________ R i c k O s b o r n e ________________________ Today's quote of the day seems only *slightly* appropriate for this list. :) >Before all else, be armed. >Machiavelli (1469-1527) _________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________ If it weren't for doctrine, a lot of the world's religions would get along a lot better, because the core roots of their beliefs aren't that dissimilar, it's the interpretation and the rules that grew up around them that seem to cause all the trouble. J Michael Straczynski -- Creator of _Babylon_5_

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BUSINESS CLASSIFIEDS INTERACTIVE(sm)
by Service＠iBase.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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No Subject
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

It's naieve to assume that Bell was even the target. World gov't/military machines learned their PR lessons in vietnam. As a part of a greater plan, it makes sense. If the stinkbomb allegations are fact, then they have enough to convict him on something minor like assault, possibly with intent or with a weapon. That would help, but wouldn't be required. They most definitely have posts with his name on them and people who would testify to his being of the libertatian/radical bent. Neither of those will likely hold up in court, but that's ok. The US is still reeling from OK City. Tried as it might, the US gov't couldn't find an outside enemy to pin it to. Whether Timmy did it or not is again irrelevant, they needed to find someone to blame and did. Now that it's the defenses turn, it would be useful to remind people of the scar--get someone for "conspiring" to do it again. Bring up that hatred again--can't hurt the prosecutions case. Markoff's and Littman's versions of the Mitnick saga are indeed most interesting. Shimomura's machine gets broken into and there was _something_ on there that _someone_ wanted back pretty badly. Does it matter if he did it? _Someone_ did, and that alone is usable. BTW, we get to wash the egg off the FBI. Sommi the "cyberstalker" goes unfound for months. Come on, we all know that no one could be that stupid. Ultimately, these add up in the mind of Joe public online. He's scared of hackers and organizations that promote libertarianism. "We can protect you from them if you let us." At this point the collective conscious doesn't care about losing what it percieves as a tiny amount of freedom to keep itself and it's offspring safe. And that's the game. The more a gov't oppresses, the more paranoid it needs to be. Becoming a police state is simple, becoming a welcomed police state takes careful planning. Prior planning prevents piss poor performance -- sparky

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Re: Spam laws threaten remailers?
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Two possibilities: First, the law might not apply to remailer operators. It only applies to originators of messages. It might make it illegal to use remailers to send commercial messages, but that would apply to the users, not to the remailer operators. Even if it does apply to remailers, they can comply with it. Put "Advertisement" at the front of each subject line, and put the remailer operator's contact info in the message. Remailer operators are not generally hidden, so this does not hurt them any.

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No Subject
by CDR Filter Account 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: The Natives Are Getting Restless
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Friday, May 23, 1997 - 16:33:14 MET It has been said that the greatest lesson learned from the vietnam war by the military industrial complex, was the need for effective disinformation and its role in dividing groups that would otherwise hang together against a common enemy. Applied to the home front this translated into "identity" politics. To break up the antiwar and youth movements of the 60s, everyone was defined as a minority with their own agenda and lexicon. Feminists, Vanishing White male, Black Power advocates, Gays/Lesbians, christian peaceniks, hispanic farm workers, etc each was pitted against the other by underscoring their departure points in a machevelian plan to divide and conquer those that had united against the war and the MIC. For the most part this has been extremely successful and any meaningful dialogue on a national scale has long been next to impossible because of it. List members should be the first to rise above the base tactics of the enemy. We need to develop a language of inclusion that unites all of these seemingly disparate peoples against the common enemy. > Blanc wrote: > > > If this society is at war, it is a Civil War, fighting against itself. In > > fact, there are many groups fighting against each other, on many different > > levels: racial, gender-based, religious, economic, philosophical, not to > > leave out political. Companies are fighting each other "tooth & nail" > > for survival in marketing turfs, races are still exchanging vicious barbs, > > homosexuals are under verbal & physical attack by the socially "normed", > > the poor still envy & disparage the rich, women & children seem more than > > ever to be at risk to attacks from roving sex perverts, the liberals would > > love to put the libertarians under, religious groups lecture against the > > moral depravity of all those "other" people, and half the country is either > > stocking up for a National Disaster or forming into militia groups or other > > Think Tanks to fight some sort of government encroachment (even the health > > food stores where I shop are always posting sign-up sheets to vote against > > something or another the government wants to ban or some right-of-choice > > that is being threatened by proposed legislation). > > Second only to Miss Piggy among deep thinkers, Mrs. > Wiggs, the one with the cabbage patch, said this: "In the > mud and scum of things ... Something always always > sings." > > I am grateful that there is at least one female on the list who > is capable of stepping into the middle of the "Dick Wars" on the > list and reminding the men that the "targets" they talk about have > names, faces, and children. > I am aware that there is a human cost inherent in every conflict, > and I accept that it will always be so, but I cannot accept the > idea that one can leave their conscience clear by "criminalizing" > their target and discounting their target's humanity. > I am an anarchist and a realist. If I had a button that would > nuke D.C., I might well push it--but I am also a thinking, feeling > human, and I would cry a river of tears, as well. When I estimate > a "body count", I never fail to count the children. > > Blanc's aim is true when she speaks of the growth of reactionary > posts to the list which fail to include a foundation of creative > thought. > Anyone can return fire when attacked and turn the situation into > a firefight where a random volley of ammo decides the outcome of > the battle. However, a good squad leader already has his defences > in place to deal rationally with situations that can easily be > forseen before they arise. > When "they" come for your neighbor today, will you be surprised > when they come for _you_ tomorrow? When I first heard of Jim Bell's > arrest I began composing a reply to Hallam-Baker's coming post. It > may be vocal and emotionally charged, but it is not done solely > out of blind reactionism. > > God bless Blanc. > > TruthMonger -96 > >

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Re: Crypto use to foil law enforcement?
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 3:21 am -0400 on 5/23/97, Carl Ellison wrote: > With the congress so woefully uninformed that they confuse password > protection with cryptography and naive enough to believe that 1.9E6 > possibilities represents a serious roadblock to entry, it looks like we have > a major education effort to perform. For 35 years we've sown innumeracy, and now it's time to reap the harvest, I'm afraid. Heinlein once half-jokingly proposed that all voters have to prove they can solve a quadratic before they can vote. That joke's not so funny anymore. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

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Re: [NTSEC] 64-bit En/Decryption speed (fwd)
by Ray Arachelian 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 13:22:42 +0000 From: Alan C. Ramsbottom <acr(a)als.co.uk> To: ntsecurity(a)iss.net Cc: stoutb(a)pios.com Subject: Re: [NTSEC] 64-bit En/Decryption speed > Consensus is that Alpha CPUs can run crypto operations 10x faster than > Intel-based systems, but to say it's based on the 64-bit-ness of the CPU > alone is false. Is everyone aware of the RSA DES challenge? In essence the task is to brute-force DES. You can find more information at: http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/des.html DESCHALL is one of real-world programs written to take up the challenge and reports the figures: DEC AlphaStation 600 5/333 ... 2.944M keys per second Dual Pentium 200 MHz ......... 2.003M keys per second SGI Onyx2 (194 MHz R10000) ... 1.943M keys per second HAL 385 (161 MHz Sparc64-II) . 1.660M keys per second UMAX S900 250MHz 604e ........ 1.368M keys per second AlphaStation 255/233 ......... 1.297M keys per second PowerMac 8500 200MHz 604e .... 1.095M keys per second PowerBook 3400 240MHz 603e ... 1.065M keys per second Sun Ultra2 Dual CPU .......... 1.060M keys per second PowerMac 8500 180MHz 604e ..... 990K keys per second PentiumPro 166MHz ............. 901K keys per second HP 9000/780C 180Mhz ........... 870K keys per second PentiumPro 180MHz ............. 850K keys per second [snip] I do not know how well this program is optimised for specific platforms, if at all. However I can confirm that other programs written for the challenge give similar results on Intel Platforms. Regards, --Alan-- acr(a)als.co.uk

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Accounts payable
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Timmy C[reep] May's reheated, refurbished, and regurgitated cud is completely inappropriate for the mailing lists into which it is cross-ruminated. ' ' ' ' ^-O-O-^ -ooO--U--Ooo- Timmy C[reep] May

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Reputation Capital
by Mark C. Wallace 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Does anyone have any papers/sources/url's on reputation capital? [1] I'm contemplating a project which I think might be similar; don't want to unecessarily make a fool of myself. [1] Dejanews and altavista turned up references, but nothing substantive. I've RTFM.

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NYC Crypto Forum
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Ray Arachelian taped the Cryptography Forum at the Association of the Bar of the City of New York last evening and will share once its transcribed. In the meantime: TITLE OF PROGRAM: Guns, Ammunition and Cryptography: Is the Government's Policy on Digital Encryption Creating a Crisis? MODERATOR: Charles R. Nesson, Professor, Harvard Law School PANELISTS: Matt Blaze, Co-author of Risks of Key Recovery paper. (short-notice invitee) Lynn McNulty (ex-NIST now RSA) filling in for Jim Bidzos Scott Charney, Computer Crime Unit, Department of Justice Kenneth W. Dam, Professor, University of Chicago Law School Dorothy E. Denning David J. Farber, University of Pennsylvania Marc Rotenberg, EPIC ----- Nesson asked the audience (about a hundred), "How many use encryption?" Over half raised hands. "Wow!" he said, "If I asked that of a law class at Harvard, maybe two or three hands would have been raised." Nesson then posed to the principal question: "Is the government's policy on cryptography creating a crisis?" Dam, Denning and Charney said no. Other panelists said yes. The audience by show of hands was about evenly split. There was intense discussion among the panelists but no change in position. Some highlights: David Kahn, in the audience, reaffirmed his support for key escrow, stating that it would not change the current legal provisions for electronically snooping, and why ask for more privacy than is now authorized. Blaze summarized the KR risks paper and pointed out the enormous expense of designing, implementing, operating and securing a global key recovery system -- which, as he ironically smiled, could make cryptographers and crypto-corps rich. That such a system might make security weaker by offering fewer choice targets to attack -- the key repositories. Blaze reminded that encryption will become pervasive in all electronic systems, not just communications. That it must be robust and untamperable or more and more crucial systems will be vulnerable to attack. And, the more complicated the security provisions the more likely they will fail. Farber stated that time was being wasted on KR debate while the nation's infrastructure remained immensely vulnerable to electronic attack. He said that with six students he could shut the system down in "a few days, with, say, spoof E-mail to key administrators." That ITEF is working on a next-generation system to prevent that, but meanwhile there is great risk. McNulty reaffirmed industry's position that other countries will develop robust encryption if the US does not allow export. Charney responded by pointing out that the administration seeks global commitment to key escrow among governments, and asserts they will comply for the same reasons the USG wants it. He said, for example, that countries may allow development of strong crypto but, like the US, will not allow export. He cited Japan's refusal to allow NTT's 128-bit export, and said Russia will surely not allow the export of the Sun/Elvis product. Same for France, Germany, and so forth. There was audience derision when Charney noted that the US must do as the Russians and Chinese and French do to control crypto. Interestingly, Charney did not cite The Wassenaar Arrangement, although Dam pointed out how difficult it was to reach agreement on the COCOM predecessor and enforce compliance with it. Nesson summarized Charney's position by saying, "do you mean that key escrow would do no more than help you catch criminals too stupid to use unescrowed crypto?" Charney nodded, and said that "nearly all all criminals we catch by electronic surveillance talk openly about being surveilled but do nothing about to avoid it." Nesson reiterated: "Do you mean that you want a system to catch stupid criminals while the nation's infrastructure is left vulnerable?" Charney, "That's not the right way to put it." Denning gave examples of her recent survey of law enforcement for examples of crypto use to hinder investigations. Finally, Dam noted that encryption policy was a different task than implementing encryption systems. That the detailed understanding of those who follow the encryption debate is not shared by the public nor by most officials. That agreement upon policy will require greater education for those who could not care less about the complications and subtleties being debated. An auditor queried: There seems to be agreement that encryption will work best when it is totally transparent to users, and the sooner that is devised the better. Why not just get on with it,? Blaze shook his head at this cluelessness, howled at the ceiling, sprouted fur, bared teeth, leaped Dave Farber, went for Charney's jugular, clawed Denning. Kahn and the suited audience ran screaming into the safe streets of Manhattan, while shaggy coders roared, "Kill, kill, kill the infrastructure-fuckers."

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NYC Crypto Forum Add
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

A supplement to the NYC Crypto Forum: Toward the end Nesson asked, "How about the missing participant here, NSA?" Several panelists noted, "NSA's here, in the audience." (Nonesuch spoke, however.) Nesson went on to ask, "What about national security interests outweighing the right to privacy?" It was here that David Kahn offered his defense of key recovery. Farber and others responded that the problem is that the government is not trusted, that guards against abuse of power have not worked, that national security too often has been a cloak for illicit actions. Here, an audience member said that he worked at Salomon Brothers doing traffic analysis of vast E-mail, and that we should be aware that more electronic snooping is going on than most people know. How could we be sure that law enforcement would not similarly abuse systems set up to catch criminals for other purposes, as NSA allegedly does, and, now using the same methodolgies, as private companies do to spy on employees, customers and competitors. All panelists nodded at this, that it's hard to tell god from the devil, and crypto won't help.

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Re: The Bell Plan
by lucifer＠dhp.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- TruthMonger #1 wrote: > John Young wrote: > > The Oregonian, May 20, 1997, Metro Section P-1: > > An affidavit says a Vancouver man arrested Friday talked of > > sabotaging Portland's 9-1-1 computer and Bull Run water > After reading this news article and a variety of posts on the cypherpunks > list (especially by Tim May and Paul Bradley), I have decided that I cannot > in good conscious allow Jim Bell's persecution for exercising his basic > human right to free speech to pass by without taking personal action to > support him. > "Then they came for the CypherPunks, and nobody spoke up..." > - Jonathan Neither can I. Although some on the list claim I live in an ivory tower while they live in the real world I haven't seen these cowards coming forward to engage in any meaningful protest of the railroading of Jim Bell. > Accordingly, I am hereby starting a thread on the cypherpunks list > to discuss "the possibility of putting the fibers down the air vents > of a federal building" to kill its computers, and the feasability > of using other methods to accomplish the same end. While I can't speak for the effectiveness of this approach, I would venture that any action of this sort would have a greater chance of success with the cooperation of a government employee such as myself who has access to the computers in the target area. (We are not all government shills.) > In keeping with what I see as a cypherpunk frame of mind, I am > posting this via an anonymous remailer, but I am also digitally > signing it. I am not hiding my identity, but merely taking > action to prevent my public statement from being used to unjustly > persecute me. I will do likewise. I am forced to slant my regular posts to the list to agree with government policy but unlike my detractors I at least have the courage to take a stance against my employer's unjust actions and challenge them to prove their case if they wish to retaliate against me for exercising my right to free speech. GovernmentMonger -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 5.0 beta Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM4XjSRpK214wNeaBAQExsgP/fh3tfF+dATYzYtETNEnDf1jn0aCkU7/r 2BVORjdhBDGvOJLvJ/Yh1sHeaTNTiPPV/cv02nt0J+zf0V9RdYXXwGkjRaAXVSSA l5JgrN4XvCYEybUODvFsgXPcLY3p09L2QT4a4fIC264bfZLQuPmTSJqgPQDowSDB n4LKu727Dkg= =z3Er -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 5.0 beta mQCNAy/BlpsAAAEEAOfc0TkSKlc9TQbw4wYUpL+0YZ8rMXTGZOLUHJl5KZgGDHRR EiTtNcRB8Vl8psIT6GZ5FPu1VKduC3aaNuQEV9wKrXYzkmsMjtWIbYxsUZ9Rq/Vs 6Sl4B3GSKPMudhlSuaGWUZxhVTPdn0eLUz9hlRz/kZR2opurmRpK214wNeaBAAUR tCBLZW50IENyaXNwaW4gPGtlbnRAc29uZ2JpcmQuY29tPokAlQMFEDOFUs2X26C5 /DVozQEBR34D/2TzjEn8ING2PNdVB4K0Vy9HcXgKyKf81eACfxhC6J5cBr+MCUIj 7xAbsj2556EBDJKf955Od5xIauPfx7woMb+b7eTJg3lOekar327jSEX1feAfYG+e yhgPid04U0FdkGpLhqMdc6qSXHCYcnD9RVw27x4np+eE/iiQVzy+SF5eiQCVAwUQ L8GYbBvasrrONMAdAQFExwP/UK82Y4+Q7E6q+P8RcC4wPcJEx1I5VAmBuBc3eI1T h+Lw3f4RdJ9eaK6ooip8GQ3SwLOiNRN3Mj0+K/7y+T2smP0wLpcP6IXqs4kO0v0e QGd2uz6dvtWWb02jMuaG6gyt2SqhJ/hgHzgF22RsqO5Wtk5N/W/oG0f6L3trjNPR hh8= =G7R+ -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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AP=MAFIA ?
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Italy remembers murdered anti-Mafia judge ROME (May 23, 1997 3:43 p.m. EDT) - Italy on Friday mourned the judge whose ground-breaking Mafia investigations led to his murder five years ago. On Thursday, prosecutors in Sicily requested life jail terms for more than 30 bosses charged with the murder. Judge Giovanni Falcone, his wife Francesca Morvillo and three bodyguards were blown up on May 23, 1992, on a motorway outside the Sicilian capital Palermo. "Institutions and citizens have a duty not to forget," the speaker of the Chamber of Deputies (lower house), Luciano Violante, said in an anniversary message to the families of the victims. He called on Italians "to avoid the rhetoric of commemorations (and to) work with determination in the fight against the Mafia to defend those values of civility and legality" for which Falcone worked. Crimefighters including FBI director Louis Freeh, in Palermo for a memorial service, drove in convoy along the motorway. They stopped to pay tribute at the point where explosives packed under the road were detonated by remote control as Falcone's car passed. "We are not just honouring the memory of a single man but of many policemen, prosecutors and investigators which he represents," Freeh said. Prosecutors in the central Sicilian city of Caltanissetta requested life sentences on Thursday for 32 Mafiosi, including Cosa Nostra's jailed boss of bosses Salvatore Riina and some of his key lieutenants, who are charged with masterminding the murder. For Giovanni Brusca, the most senior member of the Mob to be captured in the past year, prosecutors sought a 30-year jail term. They cited mitigating circumstances since Brusca has admitted using the remote control device that triggered the blast. The trial was halted for five minutes on Friday as a mark of respect. The defence is expected to sum up late next month. A verdict is expected late this year. On Friday night thousands of Sicilians gathered for a pop concert held in Falcone's memory on an undeveloped tract of land in the city's outskirts near a villa where Riina spent part of his 23 years at large before his arrest in 1993. Falcone, a Sicilian, revolutionised Italy's war on the Mafia by tracking financial records that revealed the extent of the Mob's criminal activities and resources, and by persuading captured Mafioso to turn state's evidence. Testimony from "Men of Honour," who are sworn on pain of death to a code of silence or "omerta" when they are initiated into the Mafia, gave unprecedented insight into the feared society and led to the arrest of Riina and other bosses. The murder of Falcone, and two months later of his friend and colleague Paolo Borsellino in a car-bomb attack, horrified Italy and galvanised efforts to crack the Mafia and end the reign of terror imposed by Riina and his bloody Corleone clan. Palermo's chief prosecutor Giancarlo Caselli cautioned on Friday that Italy now risked slipping into complacency. "The Mafia seems to have become a second division problem, or even a non-problem, because people think...that police successes in the last few years are leading to a definitive solution of the problem. "That is not so," Caselli said in a radio interview. "The Mafia is still an extremely robust and highly dangerous beast." _________________________________________________________________ [ Global | Stateside | Sports | Politics | Opinions | Business | Techserver | Health & Science | Entertainment | Weather | Baseball | Basketball | Football | Hockey | Sport Server | MAIN ] _________________________________________________________________ Copyright ) 1997 Nando.net Do you have some feedback for the Nando Times staff? http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/world/052397/world14_3679.html

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Re: Key Recovery / The True Story
by Ernest Hua 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> And some government spook is going to break into a church's computer > to find out if they are secret terrorists because they oppose this > or that government policy. This is an interesting point on which very little serious debate is taking place: Is it EVER okay for spooks to break into a church's computer to find out if they are secret terrorists? I'm not sure the answer is clearly one way or another, and I am willing to bet that the tone of the answers will mostly be emotional appeals to some idealistic standard or pessimistic nightmares. A meta question is whether the answer to a question like this one above can be answer strictly through a "for all practical purposes it would never affect me so it does not matter" answer. Ern -- Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707 Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua(a)chromatic.com -- Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707 Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua(a)chromatic.com -- Ernest Hua, Software Sanitation Engineer/Chief Cut And Paste Officer Chromatic Research, 615 Tasman Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089-1707 Phone: 408 752-9375, Fax: 408 752-9301, E-Mail: hua(a)chromatic.com

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Jim Bell Complaint
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

We offer the May 16 complaint against Jim Bell: http://jya.com/jimbell3.htm The complaint draws upon previous search warrants at Greg Broiles's site: http://www.parrhesia.com/jimbell/

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Re: Jim Bell Complaint
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

William Geiger wrote: >After reading the complaint I have to say that with friends like that >who needs enemies? True, if that's what the friends actually said, and if they were not induced to do so by being fed lethal information: don't go down with Bell, protect yourself, spill your guts. Recall that John Painter spoke to one or more of them and they hedged the remarks of the complaint, but he, too, saw the makings of a deal in the affadavit's allegations. Turning friends against friends is pretty common in investigations, using threats and promises of relief from possible charges, even saying that your friend is squealing on you. I was struck by how similar some remarks attributed to Bell were to those attributed to McVeigh, not that they were not made, but that the investigators chose to select just those to indicate lethal intent. The possible link between the McVeigh trial and Jim Bell's bust could indicate how the feds are itching to attack every advocate of anti-gov mayhem (no pun Tim). The IRS searching the Internet for incriminating advocacy is a warning of what's to come, as often predicted here. Time to study and ponder the 1st Amend -- which, by the way, Matt Blaze did at the NYC crypto forum last night to challenge Charney and Denning. Matt pulled out a copy and cited it, which may be a good indication of what he knows that we don't about what's coming.

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Re: Police & military access (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:23:31 -0700 > From: Kent Crispin <kent(a)songbird.com> > Subject: Re: Police & military access > > Do police have any civil rights not endowed to a individual citizen? > > No. But on the job, doing their state assigned duties, they have > access to instrumentalities not available to private citizens or > off-duty police. "On" and "off" duty may sometimes be a little fuzzy > in practice, but the principle is clear. It isn't a big deal, and > it's not a matter of civil rights. Which principle is clear? That police like to confuse the issue as much as possible to their advantage? Of course it is a matter of civil rights. The police are a representative of the CIVIL authorities, you have truly missed the entire point of the constitution. > A license to practice medicine > gives you the ability to prescribe morphine. A certain class of > drivers license lets you drive a school bus full of children. True, but there is NO law that can dictate which doctor I choose let alone if I choose one at all. At least there I have a choice, because of this the comparison you are trying to draw is broke. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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