December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Crypto Takes a Holiday (NYET, Children, etc.)
by rah＠shipwright.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

[remove reflective headgear, cough, adjust nomex underwear, blow whistle..] Good afternoon. Having just percipitated an accidental thread on rockets, I'm not one to talk, really. That's never really stopped me before, of course... However, if someone could tell me a direct relationship between strong crypto and parental values, control of one's offspring, evangelical christianity, and other inherent Rights of Mankind(tm), I would greatly appreciate it... Cheers, Bob Hettinga [check respirator, pull down headgear, resume position behind corrigated steel barricade] ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) "There is no difference between someone Shipwright Development Corporation who eats too little and sees Heaven and 44 Farquhar Street someone who drinks too much and sees Boston, MA 02331 USA snakes." -- Bertrand Russell (617) 323-7923

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Re: Philadelphia Enquirer Story on Clipper
by shamrock＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Dorothy E. Denning, chairman of the computer-science department at > Georgetown University and a supporter of the Clipper plan, said such > a world [with unbreakable encryption] would be like ''highways without >traffic lights and people > without driver's licenses.'' Let me predict it here today: there will be the day that you will need a license to access the Net. > She said the public was far more > concerned with crime than*privacy.* It gives me the chills everytime I read that quote. I just can't get used to it. -- Lucky Green <shamrock(a)netcom.com> PGP public key by finger

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Children of the Net
by jim＠bilbo.suite.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Did you here about the new Steven King novel? It called "Children of the Net". It about a group of children who stumble upon an obscure mailing list and come under the influence of the evil sysop. Lots of gore and suspense as parents try to regain control of their childrens' minds. I won't reveal how it ends, but it involves a lot of nifty government technology. :-) Jim_Miller(a)suite.com

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The Terrorists are coming! The Terrorists are coming!
by jim＠bilbo.suite.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Today's broadcast of "The McClaughlin(sp?) Group" had a short segment discussing the likelihood that terrorists will get and detonate a nuclear device. The opinions of the five journalists varied from "not likely" to "almost certain". At the end of the show, when the journalists are asked to make their predictions, one of them said that due to the terrorist threat, the US needs a larger and more powerful intelligence capability that ever before. wonderful Jim_Miller(a)suite.com

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Censoring the Net
by tcmay＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Cypherpunks, I was initially dismissive of the various calls by members of this List to censor the Net in various ways: - to protect children - to stop illegal posts - and even to better ensure that children get exposed to alternative views. (As a Adept of Cthulhu, I certainly feel it is my right to demand "fair access" to the children of Xtians and other such ilk. By not being given a chance of accepting Cthulhu into their hearts--literally--they are being condemned to being consumed as a light snack by the Elder Ones. This is just not fair to the children. Denying them access to salvation is a form of child abuse, and must be stopped. Raids by the BATF against anti-Cthulhu stronghold would be a good start....Cthulhu _likes_ the smell of burning children!) Anyway, the chorus of arguments for censorship here echoes the discussion going on on the Net as a whole. Very disturbing that so many Cypherpunks are being drawn in by these specious arguments. What version of our list have they been reading? Centralized control of the Net is neither advisable nor possible. "Not advisable" becuase then we'd have every special memetic interest group in the world lobbying for sanctions against their rivals, for more support for their particular views, and we'd have cops busting down doors. "Not possible" because the Net in its current form is world-wide in scope, with the U.S. only being currently the de facto nexus of activity. This will not be the case in 10 years, perhaps even in 5 years. For U.S. laws to control the Net is foolishly impractical. And strong crypto makes all this moot, eventually. Data havens, full pseudonymous remailers (two generations beyond today's flaky, student-run experiments), and "fortress crypto" (the bane of law enforcement) will make attempts to control who reads what moot. Your ideas, pro- or anti-Christian, pro- or anti-Muslim, will not be won by regulating the Net. And Cthulhu will have the last laugh. --Tim May -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^859433 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. "National borders are just speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Announcing: The Censorship Escrow System (CES)
by Ray 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The Censorship Escrow System is a new service being provided by The People for a Better Tommorow and SAVE OUR CHILDREN. CES's goals are: o to provide children with a sanitized world view o to prepare our children as proper citizens for their government o to prevent children from developing sexual/political deviancy o to preclude dangerous independent thinking o to parent the child in absense of proper parental guidance The CES concept is simple. CES will archive all of your children's books, tv, and educational products. We will also record and archive all of your child's telephone conversations. If you suspect that your child is being exposed to Dangerous Ideas, you will provide us with a key to unlock our archives for your child. We will then review all of the materials for offending ideas, and then recommend a plan of action. For a small fee, you will be eligible for the CCES, or Complete Censorship Escrow System. Unlike CES's retroactive censorship, CCES will monitor all of the information your child is to be presented with, and Escrow offending material until a later day when your child is indoctrinated enough to resist the material. At that time (usually age 16-18), you may give your child a key which he may present to us. The key will unlock all of the material he was prevented from viewing. Coming Soon: Internet Censorship Escrow System Features: o archiving of all newsgroups and mailing lists for escrow o authentication of age to prevent your child from gaining access to the active groups o smart information filtering of K-12 newsgroups to remove/escrow material relating to sex, rebellion, etc. o establishes an Internet Parent Overseer Board which when chaired by a group of fine upstanding citizens from the community, has the power to veto creation of public newsgroups which could be offensive to children. CES: Protecting your children for a Better Tommorow! >From the people who brought you the Gun Ownership Escrow System (GOES), Healthcare Escrow System (HES), and Hate Speech Escrow System (HSES). -The People for a Better Tommorow side note: CES is available now for beta testing. The internal company name for the project is Tipper. We expect to have an electronic expert system version of our system called the Tipper Chip available soon for implantation into VCRs, Home Video Game Systems, and Computers. -TPfaBT

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Re: Lady Di's medical records
by shamrock＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> I understand that in California, shrinks have a duty to protect > records. I expect encryption is spreading. I also expect that many of > them are worried about the trend to force disclosure of patient > records. (Such as with the Tarasoff ruling on patients who make > threats, the various other loopholes for breaking doctor-patient > privilege, the various "discovery" procedures in court cases, and so > on.) I personally know individuals that are avoiding medical care because of concerns about confidentiality. It seems the loopholes are extending. Patient records stay around for years. Who knows what the requirements will be five years from now? It would not surprise me if individuals who have been seeking drug treatment within the last, say, five years would have to be reported to the Klinton Kommunal Kare agency. > (Watch for software key escrow to fold this in: mandated encryption > of records, but American Psychiatric Association and California State > Mental Health Association the designated escrow sites. For example.) To be examined by the above supervisory agency upon "reasonable suspicion", no doubt. -- Lucky Green <shamrock(a)netcom.com> PGP public key by finger

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Re: Crypto Takes a Holiday (NYET, Children, etc.)
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Responding to msg by tcmay(a)netcom.com (Timothy C. May) on Sun, 31 Jul 3:16 PM >Let the ideas compete That is the best protection for all us children. John

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Re: Philadelphia Enquirer Story on Clipper
by frissell＠panix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:46 PM 7/31/94 -0700, Lucky Green wrote: >> Dorothy E. Denning, chairman of the computer-science department at >> Georgetown University and a supporter of the Clipper plan, said such >> a world [with unbreakable encryption] would be like ''highways without >>traffic lights and people >> without driver's licenses.'' > >Let me predict it here today: there will be the day that you will need a >license to access the Net. Yeah. I can imagine it. It would be like New York City today where the tabs are telling us that seemingly half the population is "driving while license suspended." <g> Course the 1st Amend. was specifically designed to eliminate the nasty British habit of licensing newspapers. Driving licenses weren't mentioned in that document. Have their been any licensing proposals for the Information Stupor Highway yet? If the Supremes will let me burn a cross, isn't it likely that they will let me log on? DCF "On the Information Super Highway, there will have no speed limits, there will be no rest areas, <voice change to irony> there will be no troopers. But there will be a passing lane, a passing lane." -- Network MCI

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Re: Labeling Usenet articles.
by Jonathan Rochkind 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> No, I think he's essentially talking about a 'secure' moderated newsgroup. > That is, the moderator(s) would sign each 'authorised' message with a > special key, and the newsreader would verify that it was signed by a Ah, now I understand, thanks. Actually, now that I see what you're getting at, this _does_ seem like a good idea. I think moderated newsgroups can be useful in some circumstances (sure, including a fundie newsgroup), and it would be nice to have a cryptographically secure system of doing this, that cant' be easily circumvented like the present one. And I agree that scripts using PGP do seem capable of doing this, rather then writing some new software. This actually is quite a good idea.

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Survey: what free scientific, mathematical, statistical software is wanted?
by tim werner 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This was not cross-posted to any crypto groups, so I thought I would post to the list. Hope it's appropriate. Article 491 in gnu.announce (moderated): Date: Sun, 31 Jul 94 17:23:58 EDT Distribution: world Newsgroups: gnu.announce,gnu.misc.discuss,sci.stat.math,sci.stat.consult,sci.stat.edu,alt. iams,comp.lang.fortran,comp.graphics.gnuplot,comp.software Followup-To: poster From: lenk(a)gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Survey: what free scientific, mathematical, statistical software is wanted? Lines: 25 [ Please repost this wherever you think is appropriate! ] Project GNU of the Free Software Foundation is conducting a survey to determine the kinds of mathematical software commonly utilized by scientists and mathematicians. Your answers will help us to determine the programming tasks we present to our volunteers. This will ultimately result in a more complete set of math programs and subroutines available as free software. Please answer the following questions with regard to scientific, mathematical, and/or statistical software: 1. What packages are commonly used? 2. What programs and subroutines are desired, but not available? 3. What freeware currently exists? 4. Where else can we ask these questions? Please give as much detail as you can, including package name, author, language, and where it can be found. Send responses to math-sw-survey(a)gnu.ai.mit.edu Thank you!

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No Subject
by owner-cypherpunks 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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No Subject
by owner-cypherpunks 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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No Subject
by owner-cypherpunks 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Children, the Net, and Dead Modems
by mpd＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

My Zoom 14.4k modem just caught on fire. Therefore, there will be a sudden interruption of my participation in our friendly Sunday afternoon flame war on children, the Net, and other related issues. I found an 11 year old Hayes Smartmodem in a heap of junk in my closet. I think it will do 1200. This is the second time my Zoom modem has burned up unexpectedly after being replaced under Warranty, in case anyone is thinking of buying one. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd(a)netcom.com $ via Finger. $

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Children and the Net
by mpd＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> On Sun, 31 Jul 1994, Mike Duvos wrote: > > Had it not been for the fact that having children covered with > > scars, welts, and bruises is not considered child abuse in the > > state of Texas, all the children would have been removed from the > > compound prior to the raid, and only the adults would have been > > toasted. > Puh-leeze! There has been little to no evidence of ANY abuse of the > Branch Davidian children. The only thing we know is that Koresh liked his > mates young but that doesn't mean the rest of hte children were abused > and, of course, Koresh's kink is quite normal in quite a few places. Are > you forgetting that the BDs were investigated for child abuse and cleared > earlier? These facts were well documented. Child welfare workers visited the compound and examined the children. Signs of previous physical punishment were noted as well as a room devoted to that purpose and the appropriate paraphernalia. A doctor at Baylor University Medical Center was asked later why this didn't cause the removal of the children, and said that while such behavior would certainly be considered abuse in a medical sense, it did not meet the legal definition of abuse according to the laws of the State of Texas. Texas, of course, is the leader on the national corporal punishment bandwagon and dishes out over 250,000 state-sponsored beatings every year in its public school system. So far all efforts to ban the practice have been successfully opposed by the teachers union. -- Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ mpd(a)netcom.com $ via Finger. $

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Re: Crypto Takes a Holiday (NYET, Children, etc.)
by rah＠shipwright.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 3:16 PM 7/31/94 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: >> >> [remove reflective headgear, cough, adjust nomex underwear, blow whistle..] [...] > >Chill out. [...] Damn. Every time I put on that asbestos suit, Tim brings out the napalm.... >The connection, tenuous (but no more tenuous that a hundred other >threads these past two years), is that of source-level or >receiver-level blocking is central to many of the proposals here and >in general: > >* Centralized control: Source-level blocking. vs. >* Decentralized, market control: Receiver-level blocking. >Strong crypto makes the second view impossible to stop. > >Is this enough of a connection? Tim, you just made my point. It makes the whole thread moot, and any participation in what appears to be a holy war about it for other reasons (like thrashing someone theologically) is a waste of time. >I doubt I can convince Nathan Zooks that his idea for a world-wide >police state to ensure that children are not exposed to anti-Christian >material is a lousy idea, or that I can convince Mike Duvos that his idea >of mandating access to Nathan's "Funny Mentalist" children so as to >de-program them is an equally lousy idea, but I sure do hope I can >convince most of you that central control just doesn't work. Just like Tom Paine, you're reducing things to extremes, Tim. Useful when providing the ideological motivation for a particular political action, but not helpful in a jihad between people who are allies on any other significant topic of discussion on this list. Mr. Zooks can't help but believe what he does because it's a logical consequence of his deeply-held religion. Mr. Duvos' strong belief in the evils of Fun-damn-mentalism, while laudible in my *personal* opinion, seems to prevent him from ignoring an opportunity to thrash anybody with those beliefs. Neither one of them is as comical as you portray them. My point is, we shouldn't perpetuate the brawl on the field by clearing the benches in solidarity with our theological soulmates. > >Let the ideas compete, but don't argue for a Net that is what the >Unites States was ostensibly organized to avoid. Yes, and I believe there are at least a dozen newsgroups out there where this kind of ideological warfare can be played out, keeping the s/n ratio here in better shape. A slow news day on the list is not a good excuse to keep the bandwidth allocated with a pissing match about who's religious paradigm is bigger. Cordially(!), Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) "There is no difference between someone Shipwright Development Corporation who eats too little and sees Heaven and 44 Farquhar Street someone who drinks too much and sees Boston, MA 02331 USA snakes." -- Bertrand Russell (617) 323-7923

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Re: Crypto Takes a Backseat (NYET, Children, etc.)
by Blanc Weber 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Children, Censorship, Pornography, & Who's Right It Is to Interfere: I have asked myself at times what I would do about abuse towards a child if I were to become personally aware of one, as well as what would be the proper resolution to the fact that freedom & liberty means exposure to not only the best, but the worst that is possible in humans. I couldn't accept interfering with a family and their progeny; I couldn't advocate setting up a body of overseers to pretend that they are the ultimate authority on how to raise the young to become at least as perfect as their elders. I have settled upon the idea of alternatives: when alternatives are existent, those who need and are searching for what these alternatives provide will be able to overcome the attempted influences upon their minds & bodies; if there is a place where children could go if they found their life at home abusive or unbearable (and they were aware of this place, or these people) then they themselves could seek relief & assistance there. If they were restricted or limited in their contacts at home, then they could go to wherever else other access to information is available (and don't children accomplish this, anyway, usually to the surprise and consternation of their parents?). I think the best solution would be to make available the kind of assistance which children themselves could take it upon themselves to seek at their discretion, if they thought their situation called for it. What could anyone object, if a child was to make their discomfort & unhappiness apparent by seeking the help of another who was willing to come to their aid? This would not be interferance, but still satisfy the desires of those who have concerns about injustices to the vulnerabilities of kids. In an open environment where all things are possible, where you never know what you're going to get (in that box of chocolates), it would be best to have recovery systems in operation where the damage would be limited and correction would be possible & easier to achieve. Intelligence should make its impression upon the lives of free individuals above what the limited concepts and fears of some would propose. This implies open discussion, communication, the ability to present a better view of life, better ideas, and wiser alternatives. Children like to know that their parents care for them, that their parents are interested in their physical & mental welfare. I think that they would prefer the guidance of their parents above that of strangers, that they would prefer that those whom they admire could provide the best counsel to them, and to give their parents the credit for having the best judgement on the block. But if sympathetic guidance & open discussion is not a part of their family's atmosphere, this leaves the seeking mind to find other sources of knowledge about the way the world works, and other sources of seeming authority to fill in the vaccuum. I think that the future is calling for much preparation of the intellect towards a greater ability to deal with the abstract while not leaving the level of the concrete (not that this isn't always important). The technological innovations which are continuously being created, improved, advanced require that a person be facile in dealing with new & advanced concepts as well. This also requires that a person be able to maintain their contact with the real world and not go off in ignorance with an imagination which lacks a knowledge of real processes and of how things (life, social systems, income, etc.) are made possible. The challenge of the new frontier is magnified in the world of ideas & information; if the individual (child or adult) is to be free to indulge in all the new toys being made available, then they must have a way to deal with what s/he will confront there on every level, for personal efficacy and for effective self-defense against the things which one would/should not choose to tolerate, whatever one's age group. Blanc [Enlightening Disclaimer: These comments are derived from my own intellect, not my employer's.]

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Re: FW: No SKE in Daytona and other goodies
by Blanc Weber 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: Jim Dixon If you see a guy skulking in a dark alley with a gun, a knife, and a large club, do you debate whether he is of necessity about to use them? ........................................................................... No, but maybe he wouldn't be planning to use them on *me*. Maybe he was chasing a burglar or pedophile; maybe he was in danger of being abducted by little green men from Mars; how would *I* know what he was doing out there in full armor? I could watch and wait, with my cam-corder ready in case anything really interesting really happened. Blanc [Unoffical Job-related Disclaimer: I confess . . . . . . . that I am not yet ready to confess.]

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swell discusions[D[D
by Brian D Williams 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Gee, I'd sure like to participate in all these neat discussions going on here on cypherpunks today, but I'm busy examining these disgusting GIF'S that some sick mind uploaded to all these sites in Tennessee...... Brian Williams Extropian Cypherpatriot "Cryptocosmology: Sufficently advanced communication is indistinguishable from noise." --Steve Witham "Have you ever had your phones tapped by the government? YOU WILL and the company that'll bring it to you.... AT&T" --James Speth

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Re: The Terrorists are coming!
by jdd＠aiki.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In message <Pine.3.87.9408011942.A12890-0100000(a)raven.csrv.uidaho.edu> CatAshleigh writes: > first of all the only "muslim" (NOT ARAB, NO ARABS HAVE NUKES, the only How do you know? > country with nukes in the middle east is Israel) country > with a nuclear program is pakistan, and they're years away from anything > that could be stolen. Ahem. Uzbekistan is Muslim, and is also the third or fourth largest nuclear power, and also is in a part of the world where there is a long tradition of ... how do I say it gently ... greasing the palm. I spent quite a while next door in Afghanistan and am familiar with the culture. A large part of the former USSR was Muslim and there were strategic and tactical nuclear weapons scattered all over the place (tactical weapons are used as mines, fired from artillery pieces, carried by short range missiles, and dropped from fighter bombers). If none of these is unaccounted for, it is a genuine miracle. Also, there has been quite a lot of press coverage here in the UK of the defector from Saudi Arabia who claims that (a) the Saudis backed both the Iraqi and the Pakistani nuclear programs and (b) the Saudis at least have some nuclear materials. > second of all there are more deaths caused by lighting on golf courses, > ask any insurance agency. Also not true. The total number killed directly and indirectly in Japan alone by atomic bombs is certainly over 100,000. I can't believe that that many people have been killed by lightning on golf courses! Then again, we are talking about elementary arithmetic. Yes, the probability of someone being killed by lightning on a golf course tomorrow is much much higher than that of the detonation of a nuclear weapon in a populated area. But when that nuclear weapon goes off, it's not going to be just one golfer that gets scorched. > some call it pork barrel, I call it consperasy theory to protray muslims > as terroists. Pork barrel? -- Jim Dixon

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Re: Philadelphia Enquirer Story on Clipper
by frissell＠panix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 06:55 AM 8/1/94 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote: >Course the 1st Amend. was specifically designed to eliminate the nasty >British habit of licensing newspapers. Driving licenses weren't mentioned >in that document. Have their been any licensing proposals for the >Information Stupor Highway yet? If the Supremes will let me burn a cross, >isn't it likely that they will let me log on? To further answer myself... Note that we have had telephones for more than 100 years without any licensing of telephones in this country. In fact, the telephone companies were prohibited from denying service save on a number of narrow grounds. And that was in a much tighter regulatory environment than seems destined to exist in the future. DCF "License Communists -- not Workstations"

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Re: Children and the Net
by gtoal＠an-teallach.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: "James A. Donald" <jamesd(a)netcom.com> Yep. They thought that was really great. > Will you be upset > if they try this at home? At the age of three Jim figured out that death was permanent and extremely serious. It was just a real shame you had to kill your kid's dog with a sharp spike up one nostril to make the point though ;-) G

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Re: Lawsuits Against PKP
by smb＠research.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Two lawsuits were recently filed in federal court, northern district of Calif, which may cripple Public Key Partners. Cylink v. RSA Data Security, C-94-02332-CW, June 30, 1994, San Fran. It alleges that the RSA patent is invalid. RSA Data had denied Cylink a patent license. This one is really fascinating -- Cylink is one of the owners of PKP, along with RSADSI...

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Re: Children and the Net
by Graham Toal 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: Mike Duvos <mpd(a)netcom.com> A doctor at Baylor University Medical Center was asked later why this didn't cause the removal of the children, and said that while such behavior would certainly be considered abuse in a medical sense, it did not meet the legal definition of abuse according to the laws of the State of Texas. Texas, of course, is the leader on the national corporal punishment bandwagon and dishes out over 250,000 state-sponsored beatings every year in its public school system. So far all efforts to ban the practice have been successfully opposed by the teachers union. Come off it, the benefits of a teacher giving your kid the strap at the time of an offence far outweigh the harm done. I find it really hard to believe there are places in the world where it's criminally illegal for teachers - in some places, even parents - to apply corporal punishment when necessary. Anyway, it's biggest benefit is that it teaches kids a healthy disrespect of authority and shows them the pretence behind politics, 'voluntary' taxation etc etc. The people with the physical force are in charge. I think that's a lesson all kids should be made to learn the hard way. G

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