December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:39:33 GMT > From: Adam Back <aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk> > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd) > > And this is different from yesterday how? > > What's different is that this is Denmark now. Before it was just the > US. And Canada, France, England, China, South Africa, etc., etc., etc. It was NEVER *just* the US. > > Are you offering to put up your monies to provide any and all legal and > > other support for any such site that participates? When is your site going > > up? > > John said that people should put up per country mirrors first globally > accessible, but if required by local laws / harrassment to stop doing > that make them accessible only in the country. And this reduces their footprint with their LEA's how? > As a fall back position as I understand it, so that all the useful > crypto apps are still available. Which doesn't change my original question one whit. What is Gilmore going to do with his may resources to protect those who participate? ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:53:51 +0100 > From: Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen(a)stud.uni-muenchen.de> > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls > Tim Griffiths wrote: > > > However I 'export' PGP from the US, I'm exporting it, even if I have a > > web site for each bit, 0 or 1 being determined by whether Clinton has > > a cigar or not in a posted picture. > > Hence the best way, once there are strict export regulations, is not > to export. One moves rather knowledge (thought) across the country > boundaries and there build locally the desired software. That's why > I believe it will be increasingly more essential for the future to > have good crypto algorithms that are very simple to describe and > implement. Interesting aspect to a cypherpunks archive. Archive the software as well as the technical documentation required to write it from scratch. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd) > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:11:14 +0100 (NFT) > From: ulf(a)fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) > According to Jim Choate: > > > And this is different from yesterday how? > > It is different in that it has been legal to distribute PGP and any > other public domain and mass market crypto software from Denmark > up to now. Ah, so the call is for folks in Denmark to post the various pieces of currently available software then, not everyone on the planet as it appears. Don't think so. He's asking that people put PGP and other available software on their websites without the current export controls. If he's not then he's not doing anything except blowing empty bugles because people are already doing what he's asking for. In that situation he's after reputation capital, personal gain. > > Are you offering to put up your monies to provide any and all legal and > > other support for any such site that participates? When is your site going > > up? > > John Gilmore's RSAREF site went up about a year ago. Your point being what? Exactly what it states above. If you don't get it to bad. RSAREF is not quite what he is asking folks to do now is it. Bottem line, Gilmore is asking folks to run out and put their livelyhood and their life at risk. What's he going to do for those who comply with his request? Let me ask you this Ulf, when is YOUR site going up? When will YOU be the first European repeater for the CDR? Your address implies you're in Denmark. What are you going to do for YOUR liberty today? Has Gilmore agreed to help fund YOUR fight of the change in your courts? Bottem line, when will you get off your butt and put your neck in the noose like many of the rest of us? The reality is that the change in Denmark's law changes the global picture very little. Now when Denmark quites letting people IMPORT PGP *and* places like the US quite letting people export it in some media (currently paper & ink) then you'll have cause to really be indignent. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 02:28:18 -0800 > From: x <x(a)x.com> > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin > Walls > >1. What is the point of the obfuscation? If it's not legal to do it > >openly, then it's certainly not legal to hide the fact your doing it. > >"The accused did it in such a way as to demonstrate that he was aware > >of it's illegality". > > the point is not to hide anything; the point is to expand, arbitrarily (and > this was a trivial example), the f() that takes bits from a controllable > image to one that is not. In other words, hide it. A distributed stego hash algorithm. It quacks like a duck. It waddles like a duck. It swims like a duck. It would actualy be criminal collusion and would give the LEA's in the relevant areas the necessary reason (ie probable cause) to act in concert, creating a bigger big brother. Hardly a cpunks goal. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Survey Says Kids Feel 'Threatened' By Internet
by damaged justice 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

A survey has suggested that up to half a million British children may have been upset by something they have seen on the Internet. The NOP poll shows that one in five of nearly 4,000 children between the ages of six and 16 interviewed for the survey between September and October this year were "uncomfortable" with some content viewed on-line. In the UK, 2.4 million children are estimated to use the Internet - roughly a third of all children between six and 16. Of those who have had negative experiences while surfing the Internet, the largest proportion - 40% - had seen something "rude". 'Not surprised' One in seven said they had encountered content that had "freightened them", while 25% saw pages that they thought "would get them into trouble". NOP Associate Director Rob Lawson described the numbers as a "significant minority". The children's charity NCH Action for Children suggested the survey strengthened calls for Internet regulation to protect younger users. Charity spokesman John Carr said: "I regret to say I'm not surprised by this survey's findings, it's what we have been saying for some time. Net nannies "Parents need to know their children are surfing the net in safety and security. At the moment, they have no way of knowing that at all." NCH Action for Children, which advises the government on children's issues, backs the introduction of "net nannies" - programmes which filter out content unsuitable for children. The survey, called Kids.net, was paid for by Microsoft, the BBC, NatWest and Anglia Multimedia in syndicate. The Department of Trade and Industry's forthcoming review on Internet regulation is expected to be published before Christmas. [from news.bbs.co.uk]

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The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site...
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Here's the bottem line issue with Gilmore's RSAREF site. It isn't Gilmore's, it's EFF's. It isn't Gilmore's butt on the line as it would be for person who participate in his call to action. What's EFF going to do to protect those participants? Nothing. What's Gilmore personaly going to do to protect those participants? Nothing. He's asking others to put their butt in the line of fire while he sits safely in a rear area. In effect he's asking YOU to be cannon fodder for his rights. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Trans World Specials Fare Sales
by Trans World Specials 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:45:56 -0500 > From: Duncan Frissell <frissell(a)panix.com> > Subject: Re: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site... > > Save that the cowards have never busted anyone for crypto exports. It's > dead letter law. They know they'd lose a criminal case against a civilian. > So, when do you bring your site with unconstrained access to PGP up? ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:28:59 +0100 > From: Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen(a)stud.uni-muenchen.de> > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd) > For longer term it might be desirable to have a site in a crypto- > politics neutral country (one that is unlikely to have crypto laws > in foreseeable future) to which software could be uploaded. > Downloading is then import and not subject to restriction. Where? Where is there a country that has a social, economic, and legal infrastructure of sufficient breadth but liberal views of speech to support such an effort? There are lots of little countries around but they have unstable governments, no economy to speak of, limited telecommunications infrastructure, etc. It's fine and dandy to talk about this in the theoretic but the rubber has to hit the road at some point. There isn't such a country to be had. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Ber (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:41:33 -0500 > From: John Young <jya(a)pipeline.com> > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Ber > Yes, Gilmore's proposal was to mirror the contents; URLs threaten > no reg-makers. > > Yep, mirrors of everything would be very large. We've heard already > that folks would like help in knowing what to mirror if they can't do > large archives, or can't easily decide which are most important. [text deleted] > What would help is a list from experts on what are the most gov-enraging > programs. We'd like to offer a few of those on jya.com, to test BXA's up-and- > running crypto-enforcement program, maybe get some jail and trial pleasure, > it's been too quiet on Bernstein, Junger, Karn, et al, a deliberate gov-stall, > awaiting Wassenaar. Besides enraging, it should also include the necessary documents, monographs, libraries, etc. to empower others to write the code within their own legal boundaries. If somebody makes the effort to compile such a list I'd like to personaly request they include this in addition to finished product. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd) > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:43:58 +0100 (MET) > From: 3umoelle(a)informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) > > Ah, so the call is for folks in Denmark to post the various pieces of > > currently available software then, not everyone on the planet as it appears. > > It is not just about Denmark. The Wassenaar arrangement has been > signed by 33 countries, including the US, Canada, the European Union, > Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Norway and others. Up to now, 30 of > these states have allowed to export mass market and public domain > crypto software without a license. Only the US, France and NZ did not > have the "General Software Note". Which is EXACTLY my point. People are being asked to put their butts on the line with no infrastructure or plan for what happens when the LEA's show up. Such poor planning is doomed to fail. > The US has exercised extreme pressure at the Wassenaar conference (as > one German government official writes) and has managed to get the > General Software Note modified. Now the states that have signed the > arrangement will have to regulate the export of strong > cryptography. There are other places such as Brazil, Iceland, South > Africa, India, and even Singapore which do not have any export > restrictions. And look at their social, economic, and civil liberty records. Other than Iceland not one area on your list of places has sufficient resources of the correct type to support this sort of effort. Iceland is about the only place that has any hope at all. Is there any move by any group to start some sort of archive there? Are there any subscribers from Iceland on the CDR? If so, I'd like their view on how realistic it would be to host a site in Iceland. > John Gilmore writes: "I call for volunteers in each country, at each > university or crypto-aware organization, to download crypto tools > while they can still be exported from where they are, and then to > offer them for export from your own site and your own country as long > as it's legal." ^^^^^^^ > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Which is exactly what is needed in this situation. Which, again, is my point. What is Gilmore going to do when they decide to make it illegal and start hassling these folks who were kind enough to back him? What does he OWE them for their participation in HIS movement? > RSAREF is what he has determined he can legally export from the US. So, > yes, he is doing what he also asks others to do. Hm, funny. Looks like EFF owns that site. Gilmore is doing nothing himself. He's using EFF as a shield for personal liability. Why isn't he suggesting that others do this instead of direct and personal action? Why is he not running the gilmore.org site directly? Why isn't he looking at starting some sort of international organization similar to EFF, or expanding EFF to do this sort of stuff and at the same time provide the same sort of legal shield he currently enjoys? > > Let me ask you this Ulf, when is YOUR site going up? > > My university is already distributing SSLeay, PGP, ssh, cfs and other > cypto tools. As long as they continue to do so, I won't make my mirror > available on the web, but my own crypto site is going up later this > week with another piece of strong crypto software. Kudos. > > What are you going to do for YOUR liberty today? Has Gilmore agreed to > > help fund YOUR fight of the change in your courts? > > Today I am going to create the distribution of the software I have > been working on in the past months, have the server set up and, if all > goes well, upload the file. > > I have made a few thousand dollars on developing crypto software and I > am ready to use much of that money to defend my right to distribute > the results of my work on the web. I haven't asked John or anybody > else to help me. But John IS asking you, me, and others to help him. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Government-enraging programs
by Jim Gillogly 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

John Young writes: > What would help is a list from experts on what are the most gov-enraging > programs. We'd like to offer a few of those on jya.com, to test BXA's up-and- > running crypto-enforcement program, maybe get some jail and trial pleasure, > it's been too quiet on Bernstein, Junger, Karn, et al, a deliberate gov-stall, > awaiting Wassenaar. One way to determine which programs are the best for this purpose would be to study what various governments have taken some action on. Some obvious ones: PGP (various versions, high level of government interest) Snuffle (extended US litigation) All the AES candidates (strictly-controlled dissemination from NIST) SecureOffice (Charles Booher's program -- US government has taken action) Applied Cryptography disk (US export license denied) It would also be nice to have an infrastructural component, such as (when ready for mass distribution) the Linux/FreeSWAN IPSec release; this doesn't have quite the cachet of programs on which the government has already weighed in, though. -- Jim Gillogly Sterday, 18 Foreyule S.R. 1998, 17:40 12.19.5.13.11, 10 Chuen 4 Mac, First Lord of Night

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Baker on Gilmore's Foil of Wassenaar
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Response to a forward of John Gilmore's message to UK Crypto: Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:50:19 -0500 From: <sbaker(a)steptoe.com> To: <ukcrypto(a)maillist.ox.ac.uk> Subject: Re:Foil to Wassenaar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="simple boundary" I would only add this caution. I think John is wrong in giving legal advice that Wassenaar is not binding without implementing legislation. That is an American approach to these matters. I believe that many, perhaps most, Wassenaar members derive their authority to regulate exports directly from the arrangement itself. For that reason, I would not assume that everyone everywhere is free to ignore the new restrictions until some further law or regulation is promulgated. Stewart Baker Steptoe & Johnson LLP 202.429.6413 sbaker(a)steptoe.com Baker & Hurst, "The Limits of Trust -- Governments, Cryptography, and Electronic Commerce" is now available from http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/9041106359

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Re: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site...
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Save that the cowards have never busted anyone for crypto exports. It's > dead letter law. They know they'd lose a criminal case against a civilian. > > DCF What about the Martinez case? She was convicted of exporting a satellite TV descrambler because of its crypto hardware. Charles Booher is still facing possible prosecution for putting his SecureOffice program on his website. His Grand Jury hearing for possible indictment has been postponed, at last report. Can we be sure that he won't be indicted?

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RE: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site...
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate wrote: > In effect he's asking YOU to be cannon fodder for his rights. No, he's asking people who are willing to act in their own self-interest to protect the flow of strong crypto. Note he didn't even ask people to do so as civil disobedience (illegally), which I would myself be more than willing to do could I afford the bandwidth and legal fees. If you have no self-interest, then shut up and don't participate. You're in the USS Republic of Texas anyway. Matt "Anyone who fights for the future, lives in it today." --Ayn Rand

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RE: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering <mgering(a)ecosystems.net> > Subject: RE: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site... > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:20:00 -0800 > Jim Choate wrote: > > In effect he's asking YOU to be cannon fodder for his rights. > No, he's asking people who are willing to act in their own self-interest to > protect the flow of strong crypto. Note he didn't even ask people to do so > as civil disobedience (illegally), which I would myself be more than willing > to do could I afford the bandwidth and legal fees. No, what he's asking people to do is provide a mechanism for politicaly controversial material to be made available in areas that are legal for those who are in areas where it isn't legal. If you seriously wish to propose that won't make you a target then you have no clue how LEA's work. While he does this behind the legal protection of EFF he's asking others to do it first person, something he apparently can't find the fortitude to do himself. Further, he's not willing to extend his legal protection to help others. > If you have no self-interest, then shut up and don't participate. You're in > the USS Republic of Texas anyway. What an ignorant statement. When is YOUR CDR node going up (email accounts are about $25/mo)? I've put up and continue to do so, when do you commit and then obtain the morale right to criticize others who are acting in their and YOUR best interest? I'd guess never, that takes a committment. Hell, if it wasn't for Igor and myself you wouldn't in all likelyhood even have this place to bitch. It would have disappered over a year ago. Nobody else (even the the co-creator TC May) was willing to save it. Now we've got 6 nodes (1 in Japan) which makes it very difficult to completely shut down legaly, physicaly, or through acts of God (eg tree falls or fires). You could put up a CDR node and finance it each month by smoking 1/4 ounce less of your pot. It's cheap, cheap, cheap. Piss off junior. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 19:20:34 +0100 > From: Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen(a)stud.uni-muenchen.de> > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd) > I don't know. But maybe Switzerland, a neutral country in wars, I suspect that with their reversal concerning anonymous numbered accounts and other similar changes in their laws and their enforcement that none of the fully developed countries in N. America, W. Europe, Pacific Rim would be good candidates for this sort of shenanigan without some legal backing from the get go. That leaves S. America, Africa, E. Europe, Middle East, India, and China. Not a lot of hope there. If it's not political issues, it's no economies, no modern infrastructure, religious, etc. Besides, do you really want to trust a country that funded the Nazi'a when they claimed neutrality? There continues neutrality is a ruse because it's convenient to trap those who aren't smart enough to ask why they manage to survive when their neighbors are toast. And it ain't because the mountains are high or everyone is armed. Just look at Barbarossa. > such a site could be erected. Of course it is a resource problem. No, it isn't. I fund my entire site for about $600/mo out of my own pocket. ISDN, DNS, 24 hour access, etc. That's cheap for fighting abuses of civil liberties by organizations whose bugdets are measured in big-B's. My main box (einstein) is a 486DX2/80 20M ram, 2G of drive running Linux 1.1.59 for the last 4 years. I just gave away 10 Sun 3/60's and HP/Apollo 400's that would be perfect for this sort of stuff except nobody is willing to do it. People are always giving me machines in the hope that I can either do something with them or can find somebody else who will; They're mighty rare (the people that is). I'm in the process of looking at DirectPC for a means to give my domain a fully functional mobile site. I'm looking at a couple of hundred dollars a month for that over a thousand or so for the hardware. Use Linux and run it off your car (Ok, I've a Brono II so it's a bit more convenient) via a converter. People are pretty intrigued when I put the dish in the back and drive around. Setup is easy, pull the dish from the back and clamp it on the baggage rack and site it. Hook a cell phone up for uplinks and sit back with a 400k max downlink. What's really cool is the dish I've been playing with has a DirectPC lmb and two DSS lmb's as well. The whole setup was less than $500 (minus the DSS tuners). I recognize that say $1k/mo. is a lot for most folks but the real interesting question is why the better funded cpunks aren't doing this sort of stuff when they claim such committment to the cause. Gilmore, TC May, etc. are clearly financialy capable of such activities. Such organizations as EFF and EF-Texas/Georgia clearly could raise these sorts of funds to further their suggestions to the rest of us, yet they don't. The best we get from them is requests for us to do it alone. There are times when I read some of May, Gilmore, Declan, etc. missives and wonder who it is they REALLY work for. Why is it they consistently don't follow through on their own suggestions? > But nowadays storage is getting cheaper. If one has a server machine, > it shouldn't be too big a problem to set up an archive. Yeah, two hours of work and it's there. Dirt simple. > to obtain a compiler and run the installation script. That way > storage space can be highly reduced. I'm buying 3G drives for less than $200 and I checked with John Young's archive and his entire archive is a tad over 200M. My guess is the entire web contents regarding crypto could be put down in a couple of gigs. Technical resources are not the issue. It's finding people who are willing to put themselves in harms way for their beliefs. Very few people have the strength of their convictions (most likely because they don't have any). I'd say most folks are motivated by mental masturbation. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Power Outage in San Fransisco/bay area (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:27:18 -0800 (PST) > From: Max Inux <maxinux(a)bigfoot.com> > Subject: Power Outage in San Fransisco/bay area > Well, we are going on hour 4 now, most of the power is back. One group of > 2-4 employees caused it they say. This was admitted 3 hours later, and > then they knew 15 minutes after it happens.. typical. They expect to be > back on by this afternoon Damn, you beat me to it. I was going to post something about a dry run for Y2K in San Fran. Any rioting? ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Power Outage in San Fransisco/bay area
by Max Inux 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Well, we are going on hour 4 now, most of the power is back. One group of 2-4 employees caused it they say. This was admitted 3 hours later, and then they knew 15 minutes after it happens.. typical. They expect to be back on by this afternoon On the Shell Building at 8:30AM "Building closed, no power. Power will not be restored for 6-8 hours." I wonder how they knew. The estimate is probably about right too, wierd. The mission village sub-station has been re-oppened, and most peoples power is now being revived. Funny how 2-4 people not following procedure were able to shut down 4 substations. Looks like PG&E have lots of work ahead to find out the cause/effect of this type action. Max -- Max Inux <maxinux(a)openpgp.net> New DH and RSA keys Generated. Kinky Sex makes the world go round If crypto is outlawed only outlaws will have crypto

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Altavista hacked
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

It appears that www.altaviata.com has been hacked. Begin Quote: If you are looking for pornographic material (naked people) please Click Here Else please check back with us soon, we are under construction. Thanks. End Quote Resolving *.digital.com DNS entries seems impossible. Any ideas? Wish DNSsec was deployed, it might of prevented this.

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RE: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site... (fwd)
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Further, he's not willing to extend his legal protection to help > others. Has there been any indication that the EFF would not support or help someone being persecuted for crypto-export disobedience? I wouldn't rely on such charity, nor is charity ever obligatory (that's socialism), but what reason do you have to discount it? The essence of civil disobedience is many many individual targets, not one organization. > When is YOUR CDR node going up Fine, if that is the source if your righteousness, I will put one up 1Q99. I won't even play the my network is bigger than your network pissing match, but I will put my money where my mouth is if you think hosting a list node is that big of a deal. I'm am not critical of any contribution, but I will be critical of someone chastising others contributions simply because they would do it differently. A call to arms to protect liberty is not a draft. If you don't want a gun, then don't take it, I won't even call you a Tory. Matt

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RE: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering <mgering(a)ecosystems.net> > Subject: RE: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site... (fwd) > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:26:52 -0800 > > Further, he's not willing to extend his legal protection to help > > others. > > Has there been any indication that the EFF would not support or help someone > being persecuted for crypto-export disobedience? I wouldn't rely on such I've asked many times from the local chapter and the answer was always no. The EFF has certainly never offered legal support to anyone in the 8 years or so they've been in existance, well other than Steve Jackson perhaps (I'm not sure if the EFF helped defray any of his court costs). > charity, nor is charity ever obligatory (that's socialism), but what reason > do you have to discount it? > > The essence of civil disobedience is many many individual targets, not one > organization. You should look into the history of civil disobedience then. The ONLY time it works is when it is done via mass involvement. The NAACP and ACLU have been quite effective within their limited areas of interest. Your understanding of the history of civil disobedience is skewed at best. > I'm am not critical of any contribution, but I will be critical of someone > chastising others contributions simply because they would do it differently. > A call to arms to protect liberty is not a draft. If you don't want a gun, > then don't take it, I won't even call you a Tory. Then you should rethink your approach. Somebody asking to put your neck on the block while they won't with their own is no contributor. I believe back in the War of Indipendence THOSE people were called Tory. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Attention: All Sportsmen!!!!!!!!!!
by a14u＠a14u.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Sportsmen, are you into: Hunting, Fishing, Camping, Hiking, Biking, Climbing, Sports, Playing or just Work? Then you'll want to click here! Because you'll love what you see! http://www.a14u.com _______________________________________________________________________________ If you would like to be removed from our mailing list, simply reply with "Remove" in the subject heading. You will be deleted from any further mailing. _______________________________________________________________________________

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FW: Survey Says Kids Feel 'Threatened' By Real Life
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

A survey has suggested that up to one and a half million British children may have been upset by something they have heard or read. The NOP poll shows that one in five of nearly 4,000 children between the ages of six and 16 interviewed for the survey between September and October this year were "uncomfortable" with the state of world affairs. In the UK, 7.2 million children are estimated to be exposed to the outside world - roughly 98% of all children between six and 16. Of those who have had negative experiences while being outside the home, the largest proportion - 40% - had seen something "rude". 'Not surprised' One in seven said they had encountered information that had "freightened them", while 25% heard ideas that "would get them into trouble". NOP Associate Director Rob Lawson described the numbers as a "significant minority". The children's charity NCH Action for Children suggested the survey strengthened calls for censorship to protect younger people. Charity spokesman John Carr said: "I regret to say I'm not surprised by this survey's findings, it's what we have been saying for some time. Censors "Parents need to know their children are learning in safety and security. At the moment, they have no way of knowing that at all." NCH Action for Children, which advises the government on children's issues, backs the introduction of censors - people who filter out ideas unsuitable for children. The survey, called Kids.net, was paid for by Microsoft, the NSA, the GOP, China, and MCI/Worldcom in syndicate. The Department of Trade and Industry's forthcoming review on Internet regulation is expected to be published before Christmas. [satire on news from news.bbs.co.uk]

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Officers face suspension for email offenses: Half of Town's Police Force Involved
by Max Inux 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Chief cleans house after half the Department makes fun of him via email on Patrol Car Computer Terminals (PDC's)... (Plus it's a rally cool website - listen to police scanners while you read FBI FOIA files on people like Frank Sinatra). OAKLAND, N.J. (APB) -- Half of this small borough's police force may be suspended for allegedly using computer terminals in their patrol cars to send one another disrespectful comments about the chief and the borough. http://www.apbonline.com/911/1998/12/06/oakland1206_1.html

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