December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
by Toto 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jane Jefferson wrote: > Also Sprach Adam Back: > > I await with interest the last phases of Dimitri's experiment, when > > the cypherpunks list becomes a moderated forum. > > That appears to be the main brunt of his efforts, to "push the envelope" > of free speech in order to force it's definition. Perhaps to exhibit > the necessity for a controlling authority, and thus justify the existence > of the various agencies which are trying to control the flow of > information in this country and elsewhere. If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does it start, and when does it stop. Cryptography, above all, enables the ability of a group or an individual to keep their communications secret, safe from prying eyes. The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have available in Tucson, AZ. If you act quickly, I will throw in a set of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.) The crypto-cognizant citizen proclaims cryptographical ability as a means of empowering their rights of free speech. The more intelligent of them recognize as misinformation the government's feeble claims that they cannot successfully investigate someone moving tons of illegal drugs into the country unless they have the capacity to eavesdrop on the private correspondences of 'all' of their citizens. (Which is the equivalent, in my mind, of claiming that AIDS cannot be held in check without knowing the details of all of the citizens sex-lives.) In short, I believe that if the issue of free speech is not one of the central issues on the CypherPunks list, then the list is merely one more heartless, unfeeling extension of the Great Machine which is grinding inexorably forward toward the day when we will all have its numbers tattoo'd on our forearms. As far as I am concerned, any CypherPunk who believes that the socio/politico issues surrounding cryptography are not important enough to be an integral part of this list is falling into the same type of trap as those who think that they can become good cryptographers without becoming good cryptanalysts. Those who seek to become merely cryptographers seem to think that 'numbers rule'--those who seek to be able to analyze the end-result of those 'numbers' realize that the minds, hearts and souls 'behind' those numbers tell the story of how people think and feel, and the motivations behind their cryptographical intent. (And also reveals where their vulnerabilities lie.) Thinking that cryptography is about 'numbers' is akin to thinking that equality is about 'skin-color'. > "In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche "In times of war, a peacelike man sets upon others." Bubba Rom Dos Toto

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Re: Newt's phone calls
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:07 PM 1/20/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote: >Depending on the country and bank you can probably perform almost >any transfer you like by fax. I moved my pension from one bank >to another simply by sending a fax. I have done similar transactions >with Swiss, German and UK banks. > >For some reason the fax is considered to be a practically >infallible authentication device. Quite why is beyond me since >it should be obvious to anyone that all one needs to fake a >fax is a photocopier, document signed by account holder, paste >and scissors. You get everything needed on a signed cheque. > A check is no good, most checks are now printed on paper with special lines that are supposed to become obvious after copying. A signed letter or even a mailing envelope would probably be better. Also, scotch tape makes those pexky shadows disapear like magic. My dad uses it to make multiple versions of make-up math tests that trivially look like the origional in order to goad persons who were sick on test day so that they could get the answers from someone else into printing down those answers and getting less than random probability. (multiple choice)

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Re: [Math Noise] (fwd)
by Kent Crispin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate allegedly said: > > > > Infinity does not have a predecessor, so it makes no sense to > > count back from it a finite number of steps. > > If infinity does not have predecessors (ie is immune to normal arithmetic > operations) then it is not possible for a sequence to approach it by adding > a finite amount to succesive terms in order to approach it. This means that > a sequence can not meaningfuly be asymptotic with infinity (meaning I have to > be able to draw a asymptote, at least in theory, in order to demonstrate the > limit). Jim, the problem here, as elsewhere in your posts, is that you confuse the prosaic meaning of terms with the mathematical meaning. "Approaching" infinity is sort of inane, mathematically speaking, but if it did have a meaning, it wouldn't mean "getting closer to". > > If one constructs the Ordinals, which are isomorphism classes of > > well-ordered sets, and the Cardinals, which are equivalence > > classes of equipotent sets, one will automatically end up with > > all sorts of transfinite numbers. > > If infinity is not a number, how is it possible to have a definite number > (ie transfinite) which is larger than it? > > My contention is that number theory as you present it is playing fast and > loose with the concept of infinity not being a number or visa versa. Your contention is precisely what you are doing. The term "infinity" means several things mathematically speaking, but the various meanings are precise. Your comments demonstrate that you don't really know what those precise meanings are, and thus it is difficult for people who are used to them to communicate with you. So perhaps you could define *exactly* what you mean by "infinity"? -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: 5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E 87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F

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Re: Airport security [no such thing]
by Adam Shostack 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Recall that all security is economics. The airlines want the appearance of security without having to pay for it. The '3 questions' ("Pack your luggage? let it out of your sight? Taking any gifts?") originated with El Al, where they are the introduction to a very expensive (and privacy invading) set of screening questions. The El Al people are trained to watch you as they ask the questions, and respond to signs of lying or rehersal. The Americans read the questions off the screen, and pay no attention to your answers. The market, however, is irrational*, and airlines prefer to have government imposed regulations over having to actually figure out what works, and do it. *The market is irrational because statistics on what airlines are safer than others is closely held knowledge of the FAA. Adam Alan Bostick wrote: | She presented the gate agent with *four* tickets and *four* IDs. "Where | are these other people?" the agent asked. "They're parking the car," | said the traveler. The agent gave her all four boarding passes; and my | companion and I were bumped to the third boarding group. | | The woman in front of us was white and middle-class-looking, traveling | with what appeared to be her family. One wonders what would have | happened were she a swarthy man wearing robes and a burnoose. Or if she | were just wearing shabby clothes. -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume

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A Moment of your Time.
by blizz＠capella.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

If I could just have a moment of your time, this is an opportunity message being sent out first to those I would think might be interested. I have a network marketing opportunity to make GOOD money with MINIMAL effort. I will not take up your time with the details. If you are serious about making REAL money in the MLM game, just reply with OK in the message subject and I will send you a Webpage that will explain better than I could ever do via Email. This program uses a database to place people in your downline AUTOMATICALLY as they sign up. you can spend little or even NO time recruiting, the choice is yours. I have never claimed to be articulate when sending Email, so I will end it here, but trust me, this is worth AT LEAST taking a look at. After all, if we don't have the time to check out NEW opportunity's, are we really being honest to ourselves in expecting to ever make money at this? If you wish to be removed from my mailing list, just reply to this with REMOVE in the subject line, and you will automatically be taken from my future mailing lists. I hope you choose to reply with OK, you really should at least take a look... Thanks, and GOOD LUCK Either way!

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Re: UNS_top
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

You'll get the full article soon enough, I expect. The Reuters story isn't quite right, though. Burma has no Net-connection. I stood outside the building that will house it last month (they wouldn't let me in) after hiking five miles through fields to get around police barricades. It should go live this year. For China and Singapore Net-censorship, check out my web site at http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/ -Declan On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Toto wrote: > John Young wrote: > > Governments in China, Burma and > > Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with > > minimal success. > > Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you > just being a goddamn tease? > > Toto > > > >

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Re: Menwith Hill / NSA
by pgut001＠cs.auckland.ac.nz 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I've just heard from Duncan Campbell (who made the documentary), he'll send me a copy of the script which can be put on the web. I'll let people know when it's available. Copies of the tape can be ordered from his company: IPTV Ltd 1 Meadowbank Edinburgh EH8 8JE Scotland, UK E-mail : duncan(a)gn.apc.org Tel : +44 131 659 6566 Cost is \pounds 14.50 stg + any postage costs for outside UK - \pounds 5 will cover it. They have no NTSC versions in stock but can make them from the master. Provided they get orders for at least 10, the cost will be the same. They accept payment in US$ cheques as well as \pounds stg cheques; no credit cards, sorry. He is, in theory, on holiday for another month or so and only has intermittent net connectivity, so please don't flood him with email just yet. Peter.

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Interesting item from Nwlibertarians@teleport.com
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:44:32 -0800 (PST) >From: James Ogle <joogle(a)netcom.com> >Subject: NWLibs> LP: Browne's Vote Annulled, Chudov Still PM >To: Jack Dean <JackDean(a)webworldinc.com> >cc: usa-par(a)netcom.com, ichudov(a)algebra.com, rjschundler(a)aol.com, > nwlibertarians(a)teleport.com, brockman(a)netcom.com >Sender: owner-nwlibertarians(a)teleport.com >Reply-To: nwlibertarians(a)teleport.com > > >To: Jack Dean >Cc: Usa-par(a)netcom.com Listserver Members and Other Libertarians > >It turns out that according to Jack Dean, a campaign worker with the Harry >Browne in '96 campaign, the eballot vote for Igor Chudov (Libertarian - >OK) cast from HarryBrowne@HarryBrowne'96.com address, which was forwarded >to Mr. Jack Dean by me, was a fake - so the two votes are shaved off the >Chudov total. Can anyone speak with better authority on Browne then >Mr. Jack Dean, and say the Browne did cast the vote? On a positive >note however, Tim Ladd (Pot - CA) has agreed to list Mr. Chudov as his >first choice, so Mr. Chudov stays as PM for the time being with five votes. > >The new vote totals are shown below. > >BTW, a special welcome to the usa-par(a)netcom.com list to Evan Colletti >(Pot - NV), who joins the list from Reno NV, as a founder of the NV-PAR >and the Nevada Pot Party. > > --James Ogle > >On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Jack Dean wrote: > >> >> You wrote: >> >> >Jack, i just received this email from Mr. Harry Browne. Will you >> >please confirm with him that he did indeed cast the vote? >> >> No, he didn't. It appears to be a faked e-mail message. I'll be >> investigating how it was done. >> >> Sorry. >> >> Jack >> >> >> ************************************************************************** >> J. Harris Dean | voice & fax> 714/870-5585 >> 2217 Vista del Sol | pager with voice mail> 714/935-3638 >> Fullerton, CA 92831 | e-mail> JackDean(a)webworldinc.com >> ************************************************************************** >> "LIBERTY is something you cannot have, unless you are >> willing to give it to others." - William Allen White > >---------------------------------------------------Votes for PM of USA PAR > > > ====**** ************************** ****==== > ====*** * THE 3RD USA PARLIAMENT * ***==== > ====== ************************** ====== > > Igor Chudov Taoiseach > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >For Immediate Release January 20, 1997 > > RESULTS OF VOTING FOR TAOISEACH > > Vote For # Of Vote For >MP Vote For PM Secretary Seats Rules >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Monty Truitt 1 Monty Truitt 1 James Ogle > 2 James Ogle 2 Monty Truitt > 3 Donald Duck 3 Micky Mouse 1 no >Daniel Brockman 1 Valerie Madriaga 1 James Ogle > 2 Igor Chudov > 3 Mike Bogatirev > 4 Zachary Quest 2 yes >Mike Robinson 1 Daniel Brockman 1 James Ogle > 2 Steve Michael 2 Mike Robinson > 3 Mike Robinson 1 yes >Nathan Brown 1 John Mayer 1 James Ogle > 2 Michael Banon 1 yes >Patrick Seats 1 Patrick Seats 1 James Ogle > 2 Daniel Brockman 2 Gary Swing 1 yes >Kerby Hensley 1 Locke Heemstra 1 James Ogle 1 >Jack Clayton 1 Steve Michael 1 James Ogle > 2 Jack Clayton 1 yes >Igor Chudov 1 Daniel Brockman 1 James Ogle > 2 Igor Chudov 1 yes* >James Ogle 1 Daniel Brockman 1 James Ogle > 2 Igor Chudov > 3 Nathan Brown > 4 Zachary Quest 2 yes >Bruce Daniels 1 Daniel Brockman 1 Gary Swing 8 yes >Gorden Hartman 1 Daniel Brockman 2 James Ogle 3 yes >John Mayer 1 Steve Michael 1 James Ogle 1 yes >Mike Bogatirev 1 Daniel Brockman 1 James Ogle 2 abstain >Gene Marsee' 1 Valerie Madriaga 1 James Ogle 1 abstain >Locke Heemstra 1 Lock Heemstra 1 James Ogle > 2 Daniel Brockman 1 yes >Shirley Bradshaw 1 Bruce Daniels 1 James Ogle > 2 Valerie Madriaga 1 >Lloyd Llewellyn 1 Igor Chudov 1 >Eli Rozicki 1 Nathon Brown 1 >Laura Booth 1 Nathan Brown 1 James Ogle 1 yes >Ann Atkerson 1 Newt Gingrich 1 James Ogle 1 >Steve Duby 1 Steve Duby 1 James Ogle > 2 Nathan Brown > 3 John Mayer > 4 Laura Booth 1 >Greg Farley 1 Nathan Brown 1 James Ogle 1 >Tim Ladd 1 Igor Chudov 1 James Ogle > 2 Nathan Brown >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Total 35 > > >*Voted yes on rules and other rules, and wrote in "Create USA PAR Web Page". > >Results As Of 1/20/97 > >Daniel Brockman (17 votes) Declines To Stand >Igor Chudov Elected Prime Minister - 5 votes >James Ogle Elected Secretary - 25 votes >Rules Approved - 23 votes > >--James Ogle, secretary > USA Parliament > > > Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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RE: Disseminating public-key crypto source code
by John Lehmann (SSASyd) 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> >I've written a few Perl routines for public-key cryptography. I'd >like to freely disseminate the source code (starting with ElGamal) to >as many people as I can, > >It's my understanding that there are two orthogonal restrictions: > > 1) ITAResque: I can't give code to non-U.S. citizens. > 2) PKPesque: Using public-key crypto is an infringement, > although disseminating/possessing the source > code is not. > >While I'm sure these are oversimplifications, it would seem that I can >release my source code over the Internet provided I install a simple >verification mechanism (cf. MIT's PGP distribution) to ensure that >only people claiming to be U.S. citizens have access privileges. > >Am I correct? If so, why aren't more people doing this? > People do do this, but if you are using RSA or other methods patented in the US, you might want to look at them. Is the concept of PK cryptography patented? And of course you are familiar with Bernstein v DoS... [http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/HTML/bernstein_961218 _pressrel.html] >The plaintiff in the case, Daniel J. Bernstein, Research Assistant Professor at >the University of Illinois at Chicago, developed an "encryption >algorithm" (a recipe or set of instructions) that he wanted to publish in printed >journals as well as on the Internet. Bernstein sued the >government, claiming that the government's requirements that he register as an >arms dealer and seek government permission before publication >was a violation of his First Amendment right of free speech. This is required by >the Arms Export Control Act and its implementing regulations, >the International Traffic in Arms Regulations. > >In the first phase of this litigation, the government argued that since Bernstein's >ideas were expressed, in part, in computer language (source >code), they were not protected by the First Amendment. On April 15, 1996, >Judge Patel rejected that argument and held for the first time that >computer source code is protected speech for purposes of the First >Amendment. ...here Perl has the advantage of being a scripting language, and so by default comes as source, though if you had written the routines in a scripting langauge like Python, you might find it easier to convince a judge that it was in fact human readable... -- John "BTW IANAL" Lehmann

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Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls)
by Liz Taylor 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

frantz(a)netcom.com (Bill Frantz) wrote: > The box has a 3 or 4 digit display which displays "something" about the > 3DES key, where "something" is some of the bits, or a hash, or ... With 3 > decimal digits, a MIM attacker has a 999 out of 1000 chance of getting > caught. Not true. It will take a MIM machine less than a tenth of a second to come up with a 3DES key that will have the same three digit hash. Remember the attack found about Clipper's LEAF hash, which was only 16 bits long?

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RE: Disseminating public-key crypto source code
by John Lehmann 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> >I've written a few Perl routines for public-key cryptography. I'd >like to freely disseminate the source code (starting with ElGamal) to >as many people as I can, > >It's my understanding that there are two orthogonal restrictions: > > 1) ITAResque: I can't give code to non-U.S. citizens. > 2) PKPesque: Using public-key crypto is an infringement, > although disseminating/possessing the source > code is not. > >While I'm sure these are oversimplifications, it would seem that I can >release my source code over the Internet provided I install a simple >verification mechanism (cf. MIT's PGP distribution) to ensure that >only people claiming to be U.S. citizens have access privileges. > >Am I correct? If so, why aren't more people doing this? > People do do this, but if you are using RSA or other methods patented in the US, you might want to look at them. Is the concept of PK cryptography patented? And of course you are familiar with Bernstein v DoS... [http://www.eff.org/pub/Legal/Cases/Bernstein_v_DoS/HTML/bernstein_961218 _pressrel.html] >The plaintiff in the case, Daniel J. Bernstein, Research Assistant Professor at >the University of Illinois at Chicago, developed an "encryption >algorithm" (a recipe or set of instructions) that he wanted to publish in printed >journals as well as on the Internet. Bernstein sued the >government, claiming that the government's requirements that he register as an >arms dealer and seek government permission before publication >was a violation of his First Amendment right of free speech. This is required by >the Arms Export Control Act and its implementing regulations, >the International Traffic in Arms Regulations. > >In the first phase of this litigation, the government argued that since Bernstein's >ideas were expressed, in part, in computer language (source >code), they were not protected by the First Amendment. On April 15, 1996, >Judge Patel rejected that argument and held for the first time that >computer source code is protected speech for purposes of the First >Amendment. ...here Perl has the advantage of being a scripting language, and so by default comes as source, though if you had written the routines in a scripting langauge like Python, you might find it easier to convince a judge that it was in fact human readable... -- John "BTW IANAL" Lehmann

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Arkansas Phone Scramblers, etc.
by John C. Randolph 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I just had an interesting exchange with the latest person to take up residence in my bozo filter. I get this message from some clown I've never heard of, sent from AOL, saying that he wants one of these Radio Shack scrambler frobs, and hinting that he'd be willing to pay lots for it. I sent him back a note pointing out, among other things, that I don't know him, he doesn't know me, and that we're talking about buying and selling a frob that at least one set of JBT's doesn't think he should have. I concluded by telling him that I wouldn't sell him one if I had one, that I wouldn't tell him whether I had one, and that if he wants to have a private conversation with someone, he should just get a copy of PGP phone, like everyone else. He sent me a huffy note, saying I'd better learn some diplomacy. So, what do you think guys? Did I just piss off some federal prosecutor who was hoping to body-grab me to a clueless jusrisdiction like Arkansas to try me for crypto-terrorism, or did I piss off another fucking AOL'er? Amused and Torqued at the same time, -jcr

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Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft
by Lucky Green 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:46 AM 1/20/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: >[microcurrency] >>It will also not catch on until there are better standards involving >>microcurrency transactions amongst the vendors. It would also help if >>there was a single interface (or "helper app") for whatever vendor you >>decided to go with. I am not sure that is feasible. Single interface, perhaps. Sun's Java Wallet is step in this direction. Single helper app, not a chance. The systems are too different, and do not share a sufficient number of properties, to use the same helper app. >as I see it, I think there are a few key standards that need >to be devised: > >1. an html tag that indicates how much a link costs, probably in >the <a href="" cost=xx> type syntax This could be done, but is, IMHO, too inflexible. >2. modification of http to support a payment mechanism, by sending >a token. Take a look at PEP and UPP. This may not be what you are looking for, but it is a start. Available at any IETF draft repository. [...] >>Currently every vendor of payment schemes has made it proprietary in some >>way. (At least the ones I have seen.) This means that if the user visits >>three different web pages, each using a payment scheme from a different >>vendor, that user has to be signed up with all of those vendors. (Or at >>least have their helper apps.) The systems are *not* interchangeable due to fundamental differences in the design. This is not a software/UI issue. I do not expect the signup requirements to last much longer. To give just one example, take a look at the current discussions on dev-lucre, a list for the Unofficial Cypherpunks Implementation of Ecash. [Sorry, I don't have the archive URL.] http://www.isaac.cs.berkeley.edu/ntlucre/ has the latest version. The list is currently discussing an ActiveX Ecash control. With -lucre, you no longer need to sign up with an issuer. Assuming an ActiveX control, the client software installs itself. As to the merchant software, Stronghold already ships with Ecash support built in. Netscape has announce that Navigator will ship with CyberCash. There is definitely movement at the browser/server end. -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm

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Hard Drive Encryption
by FrozenHell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I found a program on the internet called POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE that says it will encrypt your hard drive... then when ever you turn on your computer it will request a password before it even accesses your DOS. If you put in the right password it will load as a TSR that will let your access your encrypted hard drive. But I have a Western Digital Caviar Hard Drive and have the use the W.D. Disk Manager v6.03d that comes with it... this is another program that loads before your DOS... does anyone know if this program Potassium Hydroxide will work with W.D. Disk Manager and work under Win 3.11/95. I don't want to risk gibbling all the info on my hard drive. If not does anyone know of a program that will let me encrypt my hard disk and decrypt it will a password before my DOS is loaded and work with the above programs of mine. If it helps I am using DOS 6.21 with Windows 3.11 ( I'm upgrading to `95 soon ;> ) -FrozenHell (fhell(a)nether.net)

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Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > my predictions: > 1) Dale Thorn will become another Kagalenko and will mailbomb mods Unless someone can give me good enough reason to get involved with communications programming, even at a macro level, I doubt I'll be much of a technical threat to c-punks et al. I suspect that the main reason for much of Sandy's fear and loathing of late is not the incessant Spamming of the c-punks list, but rather the presence of a superior, dominant intellect which threatens his space here. Which would you fear most: The government looking over your shoulder, checking for possible ITAR violations, or a relentless critic who's apparently made it his current life's mission to ceaselessly point out your limitations to the whole world? > 2) 90% of cypherpunks-moderated will be about moderation > and censorship This topic should be one of the easiest to cut.... > 3) there will be massive openings of alternative cypherpunks > mailing lists, all doomed to fail Failure or success depends on many factors. Unfortunately, most successes in real life are money-sponsored, and therefore necessarily contain a driving, but hidden agenda. > 4) several alt.* newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks will be created Most people watch TV rather than get involved in anything. Whatever is interesting about that (other than as an academic study) I don't know. > 5) main business of freedom-knights will be shitting and spitting > at cypherpunks in alt.cypherpunks I've been posting some intense material to freedom-knights, but the response has been quite restrained. One could conjecture that the interest level there is not high (as far as c-punks goes), or that the maturity level is higher than other places... > 6) moderators will spend increasing amounts of time on their work In mathematics, when something doesn't compute intuitively, although on paper the proposition looks OK, you'd say "there's something wrong or missing here, it doesn't add up", etc. Moderators spending lots of time moderating postings from the hoi polloi doesn't add up either. > 7) crossposting between alt.cypherpunks and mail.cypherpunks > will be prohibited by alt.cypherpunks FAQ, posted monthly > by Dr. John Martin Grubor This thing about crossposting is way overblown. I was told forcefully once not to crosspost to c-punks and coderpunks, as though one list were a true subset of the other. Posters should be advised of the specific reasons for not "crossposting" to certain list combinations, unless you are referring only to commercial Spam or other 'bot-generated mail.

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Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes
by Greg Broiles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

(I wrote a pretty long message and decided that the last few paragraphs said what I was really getting at. So I put the long message on the web at <http://www.io.com/~gbroiles/cpunks.html> and have sent along only the last bit.) This discussion of public perception now finally reaches what finally spurred me to write in the first place, which is the relationship of all of this to the name of the list, and whether the unfiltered list should be called "cypherpunks" or "cypherpunks-unedited" or whatever. I think that the dispute over the name (or, more accurately, grumbling and dissent about John Gilmore's decision about naming) is reducible to a dispute over whether it's more important that the list be perceived as a "free expression zone" where any message is accepted, or if it is perceived as a mailing list with a high signal/noise ratio. At a purely technical level, these are both non-issues; the name "cypherpunks(a)toad.com" is merely a string of text, and we could all just as easily subscribe to "mxfgfds(a)toad.com"; and motivated subscribers can use automated tools to tweak the signal/noise ratio to their individual liking. But most people will follow a path of least resistance; they will (remain) subscribe[d] to "cypherpunks(a)toad.com", and they will not use filters, and what they get is what the world at large will think "cypherpunks" is. While I don't care (and suspect many others don't care) what the perception of "cypherpunks" is, per se, I do care about whether or not interesting people choose to send their thoughts and information to the list. So to the extent that public perception changes that, I'm interested. And we've been doing the "free expression zone" for several years, and what we're ending up with is a mixture that's mostly crap - of the messages I see (and I filter a lot out), a small fraction (10%?) is pure garbage (e.g., the "cocksucker" messages), a large fraction (60%?) is on-topic but uninteresting or not useful, and the rest is useful in that it's got information or a perspective I hadn't been exposed to before I read the message. Other lists which are moderated (either by message or by author) attract people whose messages are frequently useful; many of those people have been on the Cypherpunks list at one time or another and have found it unsuitable. So I'm ready to experiment with a new configuration because I'd like to get more useful information. One approach to the name question would be to eliminate "cypherpunks(a)toad.com" and force old/new subscribers to choose between "cypherpunks-edited" and "cypherpunks-unedited". The advantage I see is that it provides more accurate feedback about what people want; the present method provides information about the perceived value of unmoderation weighed against the bother of dealing with subscribing & unsubscribing. The disadvantage is that it's likely to eliminate many subscribers, and that it tends to abandon the "cypherpunks(a)toad.com" history which is, by now, ~5 years old. -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles(a)netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. |

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Re: Airport security [no such thing]
by Eric Murray 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Adam Shostack writes: > The '3 questions' ("Pack your luggage? let it out of your > sight? Taking any gifts?") originated with El Al, where they are the > introduction to a very expensive (and privacy invading) set of > screening questions. The El Al people are trained to watch you as > they ask the questions, and respond to signs of lying or rehersal. > The Americans read the questions off the screen, and pay no attention > to your answers. Some airlines here in the US have set up "check in" terminals near the gate so you can check in there instead of having to deal with human beings at the desk. The terminal asks the magic three questions. No chance for seeing someone's reaction to the questions there (unless of course there's a hidden camera pointed at the terminal, or some sort of biometric device attached). One time I asked a ticket guy if he's ever had anyone say "yes" to the magic questions, his answer was that the one time it happened the person turned out to be an FAA three-questions enforcement squad conducting a check. -- Eric Murray ericm(a)lne.com ericm(a)motorcycle.com http://www.lne.com/ericm PGP keyid:E03F65E5 fingerprint:50 B0 A2 4C 7D 86 FC 03 92 E8 AC E6 7E 27 29 AF

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Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
by Jane Jefferson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Also Sprach Toto: > > If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly > the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because > behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does > it start, and when does it stop. Exactly. > The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the > purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep > their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please > contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have > available in Tucson, AZ. If you act quickly, I will throw in a set > of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.) The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to individual. If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7 > The crypto-cognizant citizen proclaims cryptographical ability as > a means of empowering their rights of free speech. The more intelligent > of them recognize as misinformation the government's feeble claims that > they cannot successfully investigate someone moving tons of illegal > drugs into the country unless they have the capacity to eavesdrop on > the private correspondences of 'all' of their citizens. (Which is the > equivalent, in my mind, of claiming that AIDS cannot be held in check > without knowing the details of all of the citizens sex-lives.) Governments, however, are made up of the very same people who claim to require these rights to privacy. Those people create, codify and enforce the laws. The problem is that the people who find themselves in this position of power are not always the most moral or concerned with the best interest of the majority. And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these people to gain this power, unchecked! Thus, the real problem ends up being not "how to control the government so that the government doesn't control us", but "how to deal with the government when it goes into control-freak mode". That it will go into such a mode is a given -- based on human nature and history. This is a fundamental cycle of evolution and human behavior. We have to face the fact that humans are predators, and as long as we are, the cycle of this behavior will continue. The human race has not evolved to such a point where privacy is not an essential thing. If tomorrow everyone turned instantly telepathic and we all were capable of knowing each other's thoughts, you'd best believe the suicide rate would be beyond belief. Buisnesses would instantly fail, countries would instantly be absorbed by other countries, many relationships based on love and trust would be destroyed. And during that time, the deadliest person alive - the toughest and the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather, it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete absence. This is not to denigrate the efforts of the cypherpunks, but merely to point out an area that they may not have thought of as a method to battle the trend towards fascism. -- Marcus: "They'll try to kill you." | "You won't see me in Xena: "Oh, I still have a few tricks | front, but you can't left up my sleeve...I don't | leave me behind!" have any sleeves!" -- Xena bloopers | -- YES

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Re: Dr Vulis's crypto experiment (Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT)
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > my predictions: > 1) Dale Thorn will become another Kagalenko and will mailbomb mods Unless someone can give me good enough reason to get involved with communications programming, even at a macro level, I doubt I'll be much of a technical threat to c-punks et al. I suspect that the main reason for much of Sandy's fear and loathing of late is not the incessant Spamming of the c-punks list, but rather the presence of a superior, dominant intellect which threatens his space here. Which would you fear most: The government looking over your shoulder, checking for possible ITAR violations, or a relentless critic who's apparently made it his current life's mission to ceaselessly point out your limitations to the whole world? > 2) 90% of cypherpunks-moderated will be about moderation > and censorship This topic should be one of the easiest to cut.... > 3) there will be massive openings of alternative cypherpunks > mailing lists, all doomed to fail Failure or success depends on many factors. Unfortunately, most successes in real life are money-sponsored, and therefore necessarily contain a driving, but hidden agenda. > 4) several alt.* newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks will be created Most people watch TV rather than get involved in anything. Whatever is interesting about that (other than as an academic study) I don't know. > 5) main business of freedom-knights will be shitting and spitting > at cypherpunks in alt.cypherpunks I've been posting some intense material to freedom-knights, but the response has been quite restrained. One could conjecture that the interest level there is not high (as far as c-punks goes), or that the maturity level is higher than other places... > 6) moderators will spend increasing amounts of time on their work In mathematics, when something doesn't compute intuitively, although on paper the proposition looks OK, you'd say "there's something wrong or missing here, it doesn't add up", etc. Moderators spending lots of time moderating postings from the hoi polloi doesn't add up either. > 7) crossposting between alt.cypherpunks and mail.cypherpunks > will be prohibited by alt.cypherpunks FAQ, posted monthly > by Dr. John Martin Grubor This thing about crossposting is way overblown. I was told forcefully once not to crosspost to c-punks and coderpunks, as though one list were a true subset of the other. Posters should be advised of the specific reasons for not "crossposting" to certain list combinations, unless you are referring only to commercial Spam or other 'bot-generated mail.

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Hard Drive Encryption
by FrozenHell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I found a program on the internet called POTASSIUM HYDROXIDE that says it will encrypt your hard drive... then when ever you turn on your computer it will request a password before it even accesses your DOS. If you put in the right password it will load as a TSR that will let your access your encrypted hard drive. But I have a Western Digital Caviar Hard Drive and have the use the W.D. Disk Manager v6.03d that comes with it... this is another program that loads before your DOS... does anyone know if this program Potassium Hydroxide will work with W.D. Disk Manager and work under Win 3.11/95. I don't want to risk gibbling all the info on my hard drive. If not does anyone know of a program that will let me encrypt my hard disk and decrypt it will a password before my DOS is loaded and work with the above programs of mine. If it helps I am using DOS 6.21 with Windows 3.11 ( I'm upgrading to `95 soon ;> ) -FrozenHell (fhell(a)nether.net)

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Re: RSA challenge: is it legal to try?
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 05:33 PM 1/16/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 08:13 PM 1/14/97 -0800, jim bell wrote: >>US. Alone, that would have denied non-US patents to RSA. However, such an >>explanation grandly ignores the fact that computer software (let alone >>mathematics in general) was not considered patentable ANYWHERE (?) before >>public-key systems made their appearance in 1976. >... >>I'm still waiting for an "innocent" explanation for the US patent office >>beginning to issue software patents. I don't think there is one. > >The first software patent was Dennis Ritchie's patent on setUID. So what year was that? >Computer security is one area that, if you're going to allow patents >on software at all (which I think are a bad idea, but that's politics) No, it's not JUST politics. It's also (im)practicality. Even if, arguably, software OUGHT TO be patentable, going from a time in which software wasn't patentable to software patentability is essentially impossible. First, it requires (or, at least, ought to require, if they were to do it right...which they didn't) a searchable compilation of all previously existing software ideas and constructs to ensure that obvious or previously-existing ideas were not given patents. Since prior to about 1976 there was no motivation on anyone's part to collect such a database (secrecy being the most useful protection) then it was practically guaranteed that the Patent Office would be unable (or unwilling???) to refuse to grant patents on old ideas. Further, unlike a lot of big-ticket engineering, programming can be done by individuals with a relatively low-cost computer. Many if not most of the software constructs that were later called "patentable" were probably actually invented by people who had no interest in patenting them...and the few greedy ones who did were given the rewards. That's not fair, particularly when they may have been invented during a time in which software patents were known to be impossible to get. Also, since unlike other areas of engineering current programmers didn't have to pay for previous software constructs ("do-loops were free") there should have been distinct limits on the royalties that anybody could ask for in software-patent cases. Another problem is that much of the costs of most software companies are personnel and advertising. Any realistic royalty system (even assuming all other problems were solved) would have to determine what portion of a program's functionality was attributable to a patented concept, which I assert is essentially impossible. Do you charge for execution time? (the guy who patents the "wait loop" would make a fortune!) Length of code? Number of times called? Royalties must, presumably, be limited to a reasonable and practical level, and also (obviously) they may also have to be divided among a number of potential claimants, in the same way that (for instance) a car manufacturer may have to pay royalties on potentially hundreds or even thousands of patents to sell a single car. If no mechanism currently exists to arrive at a fair division of such royalties (about 20 years after the patents for the various encryption systems were filed) , I think it may be presumed that nobody seriously believes that this is possible. In short, I think it's absolutely foolish to believe that any sort of workable system could ever have been arranged to patent software, even if all of the issues above had been addressed fairly. And the reason I asked for an "innocent" explanation is to give people the benefit of the doubt so that they could show that the system was working. It isn't, and you know it. It's not surprising that no REAL LAWYERS (tm) around here were willing to tackle this issue. They know it's all a fraud. >>It also ignores the strong likelihood that the reason for the Patent-Office >>policy change (done, apparently, without benefit of a corresponding law >>change) was because with public-key/RSA there was finally an example of >>software the government wished to deny to the average citizen, >>and the only mechanism (short of secrecy, which was broken) to do so >>was to patent it. > >D,H,R,S, and A didn't _have_ to apply for patents.... >With hardware security products, the NSA has the power to seize and >classify systems which are applying for patents, for no particularly >good reason, and they used to do it often. Actually, I don't think they REALLY "have the power." What I mean by this is simple: Since American patents are supposedly grantable for applications filed up to one year prior, there is no guarantee that they will even see a patent application to grant until long after the cat is out of the bag. For instance, there was >an analog scrambler for CB radios that got its patent applications >seized in about 1980. And most software patent applications for >crypto have involved machinations to avoid getting trapped by this, >like publishing in foreign journals before submitting applications. Why should they have to publish in FOREIGN journals? Like I said before, since up to one year can elapse after disclosure (and, apparently, even longer in the case of the DHM patent, submission to ANY journal, not merely domestic ones, should do to prevent NSA's tricks. (and today, publishing on the Internet should achieve exactly the same results.) Richard Schoeppel commented this way: "Roger Schlafly has made a reasonable case that the DHM patent is invalid because the invention was "published" more than a year before the patent was filed. (He dug up a copy of a preprint they were circulating with a stamped received-date of ?May 1976?.)" What are we to conclude? These sleazebags can't even follow their own rules! Look, I asked for an INNOCENT explanation of software patents. INNOCENT explanations don't include the obvious kind of scams pulled like this. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
by Bill Campbell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Toto <toto(a)sk.sympatico.ca wrote: > If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly > the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because > behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does > it start, and when does it stop. As a long time lurker (much longer than many of the numerous relatively recent vociferous posters) I *must* speak up. If the dear "Doctor's" posting are indeed a "grand" experiment in newsgroup (or maillist) sociology, then it seems they are akin to experiments in recent history; if the patient dies, so what? There are other lists... While many of you think that the ability of a list to withstand constant spamming is an important issue; the government is busily working to outlaw encryption and privacy, and I fear that much is lost by the side issue of the "how easily can I kill a list". I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced. > The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the > purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep > their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please > contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have > available in Tucson, AZ. If you act quickly, I will throw in a set > of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.) This is very true, but I cannot understand why you think that the attempt to disrupt and destroy this list a necessary step in the task of resisting this governmental effort. > As far as I am concerned, any CypherPunk who believes that the > socio/politico issues surrounding cryptography are not important > enough to be an integral part of this list is falling into the > same type of trap as those who think that they can become good > cryptographers without becoming good cryptanalysts. Again, I can't understand why "killing the messenger" is advancing the issues of privacy and crypto issues. How does the posting of numerous crude anti-Tim May messages promote personal privacy? > > "In peacetime, a warlike man sets upon himself." -- Nietzsche > "In times of war, a peacelike man sets upon others." > Bubba Rom Dos This seems horribly to describe the current situation. =Bill=

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Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
by Richard L. Field 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In reply to Solveig Bernstein's First Amendment challenge questions: I read the new regs as permitting: (i) publication of source code in paper form (including publications reproduced on microfilm or on prerecorded phonograph records), or in the form of a motion picture film and soundtrack (section 734.3(b)(2)); and, separately, (ii) teaching or discussion of information "about" cryptography (section 744.9). The export of other encryption materials (including the distribution to non-US persons of source or object code on diskettes) is restricted, even if the materials are publicly available "educational information" for release by instruction in catalog courses and associated teaching laboratories of academic institutions (section 734.9). Technical assistance activities that go beyond "mere" teaching or discussion of information about cryptography are restricted, if they show "intent" to aid a foreign person in the development or manufacture, outside the United States, of controlled encryption commodities and software. This is a General Prohibition (see section 736.2(b)(7)(ii)). I think one question to be resolved is: could the "mere" teaching about cryptography (which is okay), *coupled* with distribution of source code in paper form (which is otherwise okay because it is not, by itself, subject to the EAR - see note to section 734.3(b)(2) and (b)(3)), be considered a violation of the EAR because it demonstrates "intent" to aid a foreign person in the development of encryption software? One would hope not (see Bernstein), but the new 734.9 seems to imply that such a combination may be restricted. Thus, a potental First Amendment challenge to the new regs would be a challenge to a restriction on teaching coupled with paper publication/distribution of source code. Another would be a challenge to the restriction on non-paper publication/distribution, whether or not coupled with teaching. - Richard Field (For discussion purposes only. Not legal advice or a legal opinion.) On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 14:45:44 -0500 (EST) you wrote (to Declan McCullagh): > >What have the new crypto regs done to the "technical data" and the "public >domain" exemptions from ITAR? > >The problem is this: as I understand it, the Commerce Dept. regs exempt >teaching and print presentations generally, but these exemptions do not >apply to "encryption software." > >Does this mean that the exemptions do not apply to *teaching about* >encryption software or *publications about* encryption software? Or *only* >that the exemptions do not apply to diskette-contained source code or object >code. > >In other words, the new regs might completely decontrol teaching and >publication of something like Professor Bernstein's Snuffle. > >On the other hand, the new regs might, like ITAR, restrict teaching and >publication of Snuffle (as well as publication of source code in diskette >format). > >The purpose of the question is to understand whether a First Amendment >challenge to the new regs is a First Amendment challenge to a restriction on >*teaching, publication, and program distribution* or just a challenge to a >restriction on *program distribution.* > > >Solveig Bernstein, Esq. >(202) 789-5274 >(202) 842-3490 (fax) > >Assistant Director of Telecommunications & Technology Studies >Cato Institute >1000 Mass. Ave. NW >Washington, DC 20001

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Nex type2.list/pubring.mix
by John A. Perry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hello Everyone! There is a new type2.list/pubring.mix combination on jpunix.com. The Web version is located at www.jpunix.com and the FTP version is at ftp.jpunix.com. This version reflects the introduction of the wazoo remailer. John Perry KG5RG perry(a)alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg(a)kg5rg.ampr.org WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry(a)jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMuSrVFOTpEThrthvAQF3VQP/WnfaCY5FYNyImKDX2p5HqjevMzw98bxR SsiKqWVUTRxEd10rTxPTBfVpq/d+kfDkWs3HQEc/Z2a3LYXwZ/8bFkr9qXTP2wOq L5PjjpD3QwfJVa2wv+DWYgn07rTyKhe5kOti4YfTt//M7F3S0T/BLMuggG/BXKyB ccUyqt16PL4= =+wMo -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Quantum computers/Java of a different sort
by Peter Trei 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> From: Mike McNally <m5(a)vail.tivoli.com> > To: cypherpunks(a)toad.com > Subject: Quantum computers/Java of a different sort > For all you quantum computer fans, see > > http://sciencenow.sciencemag.org/html/970117c.htm > -- > Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin Shades of the Infinite Improbability Drive! (cf Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy) Peter Trei trei(a)process.com

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