December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

ITAR and Paper ROM
by Steve Schear 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it >should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of >easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper. That's about 800 kilobits, or >100 kilobytes. What does ITAR say about this? > > >Jim Bell >jimbell(a)pacifier.com I'm not sure if what I did in the 80s, trying to create what I called 'paper ROM, is applicable. In these investigations I used matricies of small (1-3 mm) squares of gray (16 levels) or color (64 levels) with a mind to replace diskettes for inexpensive mass data distribution. I was able to reliably get 100-200 KB/page side using standard offset printing. With modern ink-jet/laser printers you should be able to reliably get at least 10-50KB/page side. Although a technical success, I abandoned the effort when I discovered someone had patented (4,488,679) something similar a few years earlier. -- Steve

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No Subject
by Bovine Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

May Timmy May's forgeries get stuck up his ass so he'll have to shit through his filthy mouth for the rest of its miserable life. ||||||||||| \~0/ \0~/ < (0) > --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timmy May

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Re: OECD Waffles
by Marshall Clow 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>2-4-97. Reuters: > >Global group fails to endorse Clinton encryption plan > >Washington: An influential economic research group is preparing >guidelines on computer encryption for its member countries but >will duck some of the most contentious issues involved, according >to a draft obtained by Reuters. > [snip] Gee, that's funny.... I could have sworn I heard the Hon. Abassador Aaron tell us last week that the US had "strong international support" for its' key recovery programs, especially from the OECD. Here's a quote from an earlier Reuters article: > Wednesday January 29 3:26 PM EST > >U.S. Encryption Envoy Seeks Industry Cooperation > > SAN FRANCISCO - The Clinton administration's newly named point man on > encryption policy is citing international support for U.S. policies > limiting use of encryption and called for industry cooperation. > > Ambassador David Aaron, special envoy for cryptography, said on a > speech to the RSA Data Security Conference in San Francisco that U.S. > allies support the concept of lawful access by governments and the use > of key recovery mechanisms. and a quote from the NY Times: >The New York Times, January 29, 1997, p. D19. > > > Consensus Sought on Computer Coding > > By John Markoff > > San Francisco -- The Clinton administration's top overseas representative > on cryptography -- or data scrambling -- told a group of skeptical > computer industry executives and technical experts Tuesday that important > allies support the administration's position that governments should have > access-coded computer files and digital communications. > > The speech by David L. Aaron, made on the opening day of a computer > security conference, was part of a renewed effort by the administration > to gain broad support for its efforts to control data-scrambling > technologies, which are increasingly viewed as crucial components of > electronic commerce and communications. I am shocked, SHOCKED, I say, that a representative of our government would mislead us in this way. -- Marshall Marshall Clow Aladdin Systems <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu> Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.

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Re: AltaVista Tunnel
by Mark Rogaski 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- An entity claiming to be Anil Das wrote: : : Rick Osborne wrote: : > : > He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when : > I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went : > on with his little speech. The rest of my crypto-specific questions met : > with equal dark stares. And these are the people setting industry standards... : : I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give : them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches : on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the : system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in : technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency, : between the two. : If the marketing-droid didn't have the ability to answer such a basic question, DEC should have just sent out videotape promos. I don't understand why they went through the expense of sending warm bodies out on a roadshow without giving them enough specification about the product to give an effective presentation to a predominantly tech-oriented audience. From whom did they expect the questions to come? A competent marketing professional would AT LEAST know what standards/protocols the product supported, does a car company send its sales force out without knowing if the cars use gas or diesel? Another example of how the Macro$loth mindset of tossing out random buzzwords to a chorus of ooooh's and ahhhh's has polluted the industry. In Rick's case, DEC's image was deflated. OK, so how many other people present got the same impression. And it's very likely that one of those people is a decision maker, or the anecdote got back to one of the decision makers. So, due to DEC's failure to ensure that their sales force new the product, they can probably scratch Grumman off of their potential client list. Mark - -- [] Mark Rogaski || "Computers save time like kudzu [] [] wendigo(a)pobox.com || prevents soil erosion." [] [] http://www.pobox.com/~wendigo/ || - afcasta(a)texas.net [] [] >> finger for PGP pubkey << || [] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMvjCjBz4pZwIaHjdAQEziAf/WXyN1MHZd5E77RIGwQIk37gcTKAnDATS gKpKW/MWENV5qF7sEdJ/5BEE5KpJUsUvG9+/9ZfmjwLJbaiIAiIKBkLto5oBCwFi 0uR7RFqDCtIIsVzDb+L6gzAKJ98WDTHeaQO7uy3NDo6WkuGdIDtcxe5mzuLmekjE wlnNy3PCmU6LYZivuW4L8IAXQ+Fd263DX4WaR2FbRGXmdH6/QCJHp7kerjuppNtD rCaUh1yFoxmzzZp2QLgYhZRGDNzw7SKPCcmMBcPk2873f+U9kdEWrz0LzSQwSlRN zZGXZMfsuF6PrLckRS8fGO00/ZVuh4byiqGffSP++zwEE6GDcFHR4A== =Caug -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: AltaVista Tunnel
by Rick Osborne 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 03:48 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote: >I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give >them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches >on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the >system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in >technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency, >between the two. Oh, I understand that. But I do expect at least a *tiny* bit of knowledge on the product by said marketers. I mean, the entire base of PPTP is crypto. It's like trying to explain a word processor without knowing what a paragraph is. When I went to the networks guys, they answered every one of my questions about the routers, packet sniffing, etc. without hesitation. The nice lady with the .5TB RAID array was just as competent. The only person in that entire truck that couldn't answer my questions was this one guy. It just goes back to the old thread of "why don't people know about crypto?" _________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________ If it's broke, send it back. If it works, take it apart and find out why.

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Re: Deloitte-Touche?
by Marshall Clow 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Several people wrote: >I wrote: >>ObCrypto policy: >> Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy >>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon >>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of >>the government. [...] > >For the benefit of those of us who were not at this luncheon (probably >not even in the same country), could you please say more about this, >Marshall? What was the subject? What _did_ the DT speaker say, exactly? > After a while, I stopped taking notes, because I was so astounded at what he was saying. (Maybe someone with more complete notes could post a better summary) But, here a brief overview of the luncheon: Last Wednesday, January 29th, the Internet Privacy Coalition had a "policy lunch" in San Francisco. It was in one of the hotels hosting the RSA conference, and at the same time that the conference was breaking for lunch, so it was easy for attendees to "switch lunches". The speakers (as I remember, apologies to any I miss) were: Whit Diffie John Gilmore Kenneth Bass (counsel in Karn vs. Dept of State) Herb Lin (who ran the NRC staff for the crypto study) Marc Rotenberg William Hugh Murray (Deloitte & Touche) and a couple others that I missed, as I left early. Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech. He said that the government is going to crack down on domestic possession and use of crypto, that they were looking to increase their wiretapping capabilities 100-fold, and so on. He was very emphatic about not trusting anything that the government says, and that once they got their "foot in the door", that they would seek to expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc. He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He insisted that there was no way the government could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations, and to lobby their congresscritters to get the PRO-CODE bill passed. It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed accountant who was representing a large corporation whose job it is to help people obey the government. [ My father was an accountant. He worked for Deloitte-Touche, in fact. I don't expect accountants to be passionate about government regs, and especially not to advocate disobediance. Maybe that's why this affected me so strongly. ] -- Marshall Marshall Clow Aladdin Systems <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu> Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.

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I'm Just A Kid (But If I Was A Secret Goverhnment Guy...)
by Larry Johnson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I would:> Make regular government guys pass all kinds of laws and stuff to keep regular people from having what they need to be talking to each other in secret where I couldnt listen. (Cause Im the Secret Guy--not them!) Sic lawyers and persecutors on a guy if he made some secret-keeping stuff that worked and let everyone have it if they wanted it. Make my own secret software stuff using guys who want to make a lot of money and will do what I want if I make it so they will. Make businesses lose money unless they used my own secret software stuff cause they couldnt sell it everywhere unless they did what I said. Make a secret guy coup on troublemakers and take over their stuff so I could use it just for other secret guys and business guys to tell everyone to use just my own secret-keeping software stuff. I would make a secret guy coup on a mailing list if it was causing trouble for me. I wouldnt do it until I had my own secret stuff ready to give to everyone though. And I would have my other secret guys already on the list waiting for me to tell them what to do. I would cause a lot of trouble on the list and use it to get rid of the troublemaker guys and make everyone think that I am a good guy saving them from bad guys wearing black hats and shooting at them with penis-pictures. I would let another guy be a dumb guy and do all the bad things for me on the list so everyone would be mad at him and not at me. I would let my secret smart guys on the list tell everyone that the dumb guy wasnt doing dumb and bad things. I would make them say things that sound real smart but dont really mean anything except in the direction they are pointing their fingers to make people look. I would have my secret guys all saying underneath the conscious stuff together so that everyone would start believing things that I want them to believe. {My uncle just got back from his trip so he is going to help me with the rest (just the spelling and stuff though) and then he is going to kill me for making his secret machine call him a _lamer_ when he boots it up} <::>I want everyone to believe<::> :>I had to save the list cause it was sick. My secret guys talk about "the PATHOLOGY of the list" :>Dictatorship will save them from the chaos of anarchy. My secret guys talk about the "TRAGEDY of the COMMONS" :>It is not me but other guys who are trying to steal the list. My secret guys say "PRIVATE ACTORS..EXTRACT..REPUTATION CAPITAL." :>Its ok to throw doo-doo on the only original list guy who wont :>kiss secret guy/big business ass by connecting him in peoples :>heads with the guy everyone knows is a bad guy (because he uses :>bad words. My secret guys say "DMITRI VULIS' BEHAVIOR...SEEKS TO PUNISH THE LIST for failing to PUNISH or OSTRACIZE TIM MAY..TIM MAY WAS DISRESPECTFUL" <--"PRIVATE GAIN (PUBLIC RETRIBUTION)"-->OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...TIM MAY WAS DISRESPECTFUL...PUNISH TIM MAY(PUBLIC RETRIBUTION)..."ATTEMPT TO ACHIEVE PRIVATE GAIN...AT THE EXPENSE OF...QUALITY AND GOOD NAME OF THE LIST"...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...DIMITRI VULIS' BEHAVIOR...TIM MAY IS DISRESPECTFUL...DIMITRI VULIS..TIM MAY :>Only a few riff-raff are misrepresenting Dictatorship. My secret guys say "Several..." (the few that escaped the censors jackboot) "AUTHORS..." (people who only make stuff up in writing) "CHARACTERIZED JOHN GILMORE AND SANDY SANDFORT's..." ('made up' the bad character of) "with RESPECT to MODERATION"...RESPECT MODERATION ...RESPECT MODERATION...RESPECT MODERATION :>I am not a Dictator who is stealing the list. My secret guys use nice polite words to describe what people really called dictatorship and stealing. "MONOPOLIZE" instead of DICTATORSHIP "APPROPRIATE" instead of STEAL. :>Freedom and gain should be associated with private ownership. My secret guys would put words in the mouths of "FREE-market" guys (standing by an American flag with their hands over their hearts singing the national anthem) and make them say that the "SOLUTION TO "TRAGEDY...IS PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...MAXIMIZE LONG-TERM GAIN...CAREFUL MANAGEMENT" :>If there is no list Fuhrer to say how things will always be done then the email won't run on time. My secret guys say "WASTEFUL...HARMFUL SHORT-TERM STRATEGIES..." are what everyone is going to get without a having a Dictator and "PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...ELIMINATE...WASTEFUL...NONOPTIMAL USE OF RESOURCES" and "WORK towards...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP"..."ANARCHIC COMMUNITY AT ODDS WITH...GOOD USE OF RESOURCES"...WORK-->PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...ANARCHIC-->WASTEFUL...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP-->SOLUTION TO TRAGEDY...ANARCHIC-->HARMFUL<->TIM MAY<->DIMITRI VULIS<->HARMFUL ANARCHIC...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP-->HISTORICAL...OSCTRACIZE TIM MAY TIM WAS DISRESPECTFUL...ANARCHIC HARMFUL...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY WORK=PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...WORK=PRIVATE OWNERSHIP ANARCHIC HARMFUL...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...ANARCHIC...DISRESPECTFUL DIMITRI VULIS=TIM MAY...DIMITRI VULIS=TIM MAY=DIMITRI VULIS OSTRACIZE TIM VULIS... If I was a secret government guy I would make a cypherpunks home page and fix it so that anyone who used the "legendary and massive directory of global Internet resources" (a fancy name for a bunch of Yahoos) to search for cypherpunks would only find my home page and the home pages of two crazy guys. My home page wouldnt have any links to other peoples cypherpunks mail list stuff but only the one my secret guys were taking over. I would hope nobody would notice that almost everyone in the world who searches for the cypherpunks would only find the mailing list that is censored by my guy and my autobot. I would hope that nobody would notice that the guy saying hes checking to see if secret government guys are messing with the cypherpunks is one of my guys. Of course Im just a kid and not a secret government guy so I cant do all this stuff. Good thing for you guys, huh? (But you guys should watch out for messages that start with saying, "You are getting sleepy...you are getting very very sleepy...) Anyway my uncle is kicking me off of cypherpunks so he can clean up my mess in my dads email before he gets home. And then hes going to kill me (but only after I help him find the silver key on the second level of Duke Nukem3D--hes a gamer-lamer). You guys might think Im a lamer myself but I got my Sandy flame on the censored list (on my very first message) using kindegarten cryptography and you didnt so maybe you could learn something from a kid, huh? My uncle says he doesnt think kids (or anybody else) should have what they say thrown in the flames-crapper just because someone doesnt like what they say. He used to go behind the Iron Curtain so people could hear what other people didnt want them to hear and now he goes behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain instead and he says he wont let any lamers shut me up just because their ashamed of what their doing and dont want anyone to know about it. He helped me with some of this but only to not sound like a real lamer (just a bit of a lamer) but not with what I think about the cypherpunks. I learned how to read with the Froggie manual and cypherpunks messages and government stuff and stuff by my dead uncle who is dead because of what he wrote about the guys who started the internet in the first place. (Their not good guys.) I like you guys. Dont bend over for the lamers. Dont start to cry. Just keep on being flamers. Bitch and shout. Dont worry about the schisms. And dont let the Fascists take Your algorithms. Lamers come and go So dont worry bout their junk Anarchists have <Delete> keys They're Immortal CypherPunks. I have to go get killed now. Human Gus-Peter grandson of gomez

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Re: Silly Americans
by Rick Osborne 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>At 09:37 PM 2/4/97 -0500, Rick Osborne wrote: >>a philosophical note, why *do* we allow the government to regulate >>algorithms? (Implementations, I can understand, but *algorithms*?) At 03:33 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: >Because they're bigger than we are and better-armed? Okay, I can accept that ... >Because there's lots of money to be made by people patenting things? This i have a little more trouble with ... Sure *one* company can make alot of money, but *one* company making money doesn't stimulate the economy. >Because big companies can use it to interfere with competition? Once again, this is non- and even counter-productive. Pure competition is great, but if only one company has a product, there is *no* competition. >Because it's good for the economy because it encourages inventors >of algorithms to publish them and make money by doing so? No: many companies using the same algorithm with different implementations is good for the economy. It's like this: say that way back when the first electronic spreadsheet was produced, someone patented it. It then evolved into Excel. Now, no one else can do any kind of electronic spreadsheet, because Microsoft has the rights. There is no competetion and anyone who wants to use an electronic spreadsheet has to use Excel. This would be great for Microsoft, but horrible for everyone else. Lotus 1-2-3 would have never existed, etc, etc, etc. The constant chatter about the expiration of the Diffie patent proves my point: if everyone was satisfied with what there was, then no one would be gearing up to produce their own products. Competition is a *good* thing. You can't evolve without it ... _________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________ Once a Junior Programmer interrupted a Great Guru of the Sun to ask a Question of no importance. The Great Guru replied in words which the Junior Programmer did not understand. The Junior Programmer sought to rephrase the Question, saying, "Stop me if I appear stupid." The great Guru, without speaking, reached over and pressed L1-A. The Junior Programmer achieved Enlightenment.

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New type2.list/pubring.mix
by John A. Perry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hello Everyone, I've just updated the type2.list/pubring.mix combination on jpunix.com to reflect the retirement of rebma. The files are available by anonymous FTP from ftp.jpunix.com as well as by WWW from www.jpunix.com. Additionally, the files are now available by IRC (EFnet) by accessing the rops bot on #remailop. Just send a /msg rops hello so rops will recognize you. You can then do a /dcc chat rops, go to the file area and then do a /dcc get. John Perry KG5RG perry(a)alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg(a)kg5rg.ampr.org WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry(a)jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMvjs0lOTpEThrthvAQHrnQP8CRmcUbp5fndiFyfTdDXmmMYNHj7wteBG 8S9kw1J9TnDpjaXI5fy+OXzX7UthDjO5HznmBjx/iv4ozZ6d5SnNiKFyRGSok3lB +o6EovbYtp1fUZ7JzDF/0fqCn5vs/v5LetIDYSNrAjz6utiFk0/Lfh9VQyu/FlJq +R4+H/UC+bw= =qlqM -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Sorry!!
by John A. Perry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I apologize for 3 copies of the same message. I was having some problems with premail. I'll try not to let it happen again. John Perry KG5RG perry(a)alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg(a)kg5rg.ampr.org WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry(a)jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMvjuN1OTpEThrthvAQHZmgQAkp1pN5S/NV/8Bg17kiQXKBM59y+bmMEx XkkEPQlVYCPrE6z+t+QRx93DQS3HVwAE8x5tvP9fkvnWGJxuyMMkBeJv+ru2kDUg dDxo8+C+TsQ6jQ+B7OQWg4EcaC9vpQNPYQLEYpI5UjgXrpYLtilcfeGzvYqSDXmN 8+xvb184UfE= =sSG7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Are cypher punks capable?
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:57 PM 2/4/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote: >Against Moderation wrote: >> In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not >> completely trivial. > >Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems? > I just unsubscribed to cypherpunks, simoutaneously (excuse the spelling) subscribing to the cypherpunks-unfiltered (and low tar) list. One problem I have is in transit, how many messages did I loose? Since the moderated list is delayed by however long it takes for Mr. Sandforth to read the messages, I lost at least as many messages as he pulled in last minus the number of messages that he had already sent out. I thought about subscribing for about four hours to both lists, but I have enough trouble with my account hitting its maximum kB limit. I don't have any filters, scripts, or other, and yet I still had a problem, (one which I finally ignored).

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ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
by Hugh Daniel 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

What: San Francisco Bay Area Cypherpunks monthly physical meeting When: Saturday February 8th, 1997 Where: Turning Auditorium, Stanford University, Stanford California Agenda: 11:++ setup, gossip, face feeding etc. 12:00 USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc. 13:00 PGPmail & PGPdisk overview, Dave Del Torto, PGP inc. 14:00 Break 14:30 Announcements, late breaking news, etc. 15:00 The 3 hour 40bit challenge, Ian Goldberg, UCBstudent 16:00 Why bother killing the list?, Hugh Daniel Future Meeting Planing, IPSEC Update, etc. 17:00 This hour left bank for future expansion... Dinner: 18:30 Dinner at Thai City, 3691 El Camino Real, PA (All times are approximate and likely to be totaly ignored...) Directions: Turning Auditorium is in Polya Hall, Jordan Quad, Stanford University, Stanford, Santa Clara County, California, USA. A (bit)map to the part of the Stanford Campus where the meeting will be held is at: http://www-facilities.stanford.edu/transportation/PGrid4.html General directions: - From Hwy 101, take the Embarcadero exit all the way to campus. Turn right (clockwise) on Campus Drive. Turn left into the Jordan Quad parking lot. - From Hwy 280, take Sand Hill. Turn right on Junipero Serra, then left (counterclockwise) onto Campus Drive. Turn right into the Jordan Quad parking lot. Host: Many thanks to Richard Graves <llurch(a)stanford.edu> and to Stanford University for providing the space for this months meeting. Notes: We will have a small NHK (Nipon(Japan)) film crew at much of this meeting, they are doing a documentary and are interested in how this (main) branch cypherpunks works (or does not work as the case may be...). We have a wonderful space to do demos in this month, Turing Auditorium has Internet, projections screens, audio amps and a Clone-PC and a Macintosh to demo software, web sites etc. If you have something Cypherpunkish to demo, this is the month to do so!

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Sorry!!
by John A. Perry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I apologize for 3 copies of the same message. I was having some problems with premail. I'll try not to let it happen again. John Perry KG5RG perry(a)alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg(a)kg5rg.ampr.org WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry(a)jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMvjuN1OTpEThrthvAQHZmgQAkp1pN5S/NV/8Bg17kiQXKBM59y+bmMEx XkkEPQlVYCPrE6z+t+QRx93DQS3HVwAE8x5tvP9fkvnWGJxuyMMkBeJv+ru2kDUg dDxo8+C+TsQ6jQ+B7OQWg4EcaC9vpQNPYQLEYpI5UjgXrpYLtilcfeGzvYqSDXmN 8+xvb184UfE= =sSG7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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New type2.list/pubring.mix
by John A. Perry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hello Everyone, I've just updated the type2.list/pubring.mix combination on jpunix.com to reflect the retirement of rebma. The files are available by anonymous FTP from ftp.jpunix.com as well as by WWW from www.jpunix.com. Additionally, the files are now available by IRC (EFnet) by accessing the rops bot on #remailop. Just send a /msg rops hello so rops will recognize you. You can then do a /dcc chat rops, go to the file area and then do a /dcc get. John Perry KG5RG perry(a)alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg(a)kg5rg.ampr.org WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry(a)jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMvjtk1OTpEThrthvAQEY9QP/RAmfhG6yF0xRQn23XgXhnVxQIMexnEIw SS3WNj8hHIS5TAT06AsjFLrcBGPqkN612XiYrkGAtgXLQfPuevxGrtDRdGesYzGH kz5+exvxW3BOuVokQs7TZLoQQzSq5WbmfdoG1UZ6aSXPQ1gE6c/Hwgx8R/Z4Os9I xZP07vWyryc= =bPEB -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: "Strong" crypto and export rule changes.
by Ian Goldberg 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article <199702030626.WAA14616(a)toad.com>, Vin McLellan <vin(a)shore.net> wrote: > Ian popped the 40-bit RC5 (not RC4) challenge with 259 processors, >almost all standard Unix college-lab workstations, as I understand it. >(RC5 has a variable block size and a variable number of rounds; but the >unknown plaintexts for this contest were enciphered using a declared >12-round RC5 with a 32-bit word size.) The message Ian revealed was >something like: "That's why you need a longer key!!!!!" > > (The network Ian used to link his lab workstations, NOW at >Berkeley, is definitely not standard, however. I think there is a >description of it online; but briefly, NOW seems designed to very >efficiently handle this sort of intensive distributed processing project. >More important, perhaps, was the fact that Ian just chewed through the >possible keys with a pure brute-force attack on the key space. His attack >was not really optimized for RC5, or designed to attack any specific >element in the RC5 crypto architecture.) Actually, it was 259 _machines_, but 4 of them were 8-processor UltraSPARCs (by far the coolest machines I had access to), for a total of 287 processors. The "special" network used by the NOW cluster was irrelevant; I didn't use it at all. I used the machines on the NOW and 120 other HP workstations as regular TCP/IP clients. I started them by simply logging in to each machine, one at a time with "rsh" (well, "krsh" or "ssh" where appropriate). - Ian -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMvj4REZRiTErSPb1AQFl5gP+MGlyElNu6X3IHseW6Q0EPicPa4mQs35Z koUKkAhk0qrT2CpEzw7J6dtjyTLs2BUmScEOtvU8KiBjK8aRZCsE0BHSmONWtX71 dNZu1q/+wm2oSLi1tDq0mT7bpbBR0NbO71tWgza2vTFhtP4vKvzt5SodYSN+JTYL 5DuLvpofRFs= =ly1x -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Are cypher punks capable?
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:57 PM 2/4/97 -0000, Secret Squirrel wrote: >Against Moderation wrote: >> In general, unsubscribing and resubscribing to a mailing list is not >> completely trivial. > >Do you think that a cypher punk is not able to solve these problems? > I just unsubscribed to cypherpunks, simoutaneously (excuse the spelling) subscribing to the cypherpunks-unfiltered (and low tar) list. One problem I have is in transit, how many messages did I loose? Since the moderated list is delayed by however long it takes for Mr. Sandforth to read the messages, I lost at least as many messages as he pulled in last minus the number of messages that he had already sent out. I thought about subscribing for about four hours to both lists, but I have enough trouble with my account hitting its maximum kB limit. I don't have any filters, scripts, or other, and yet I still had a problem, (one which I finally ignored).

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Re: Deloitte-Touche?
by Mark Voorhees 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:45:30 -0800, Marshall Clow wrote: >It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because >I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It >was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional >manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed >accountant who was representing a large >corporation whose job it is to help people obey the >government. I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc. Mark

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Edited Edupage, 4 February 1997
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"educom(a)educom.unc.edu" 5-FEB-1997 01:10:14.09 To: IN%"edupage(a)elanor.oit.unc.edu" "EDUCOM Edupage Mailing List" >************************************************************ >Edupage, 4 February 1997. Edupage, a summary of news about information >technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, a >Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities >seeking to transform education through the use of information technology. >************************************************************ >GATES SAYS OLD LAWS ARE GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE NET >Microsoft's Bill Gates: "It's always surprising how old concepts carry over >into the new medium. It's overly idealistic to act like, Oh, the Internet >is the one place where people should be able to do whatever they wish: >present child pornography, do scams, libel people, steal copyrighted >material. Society's values have not changed fundamentally just because it's >an Internet page. Take copyright. Sure, there should be some >clarifications about copyright, but the old principles work surprisingly >well in the new medium. Anybody who says you have to start over -- I don't >agree with that." (George Feb 97) Looks like he hasn't thought about enforcement problems, which may fortunately prevent the application of unnecessary laws to the 'net. >CULTURE CLASHES ON THE INTERNET >At a session of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, the issue of >censorship on the Internet was debated from East/West perspectives, with the >Eastern view represented by such countries as Singapore, Iran, and Egypt. >Denmark foreign minister Uffe Ellemann-Jensen said, "Whenever you want to >stop the free flow of information, you must ask yourself what is possible. >The usual answer from politicians is we need international rules. I say, >forget it. It won't happen." Iranian mathematics professor Mohammed >Lasijani countered: "In the west, the issue is sometimes how to globalise >liberalism: how to export an ideology. I am not a liberal, and I do not >believe liberalism is the only way to a decent life." (Financial Times 4 >Feb 97) Well, yes, neither did Adolf Hitler. Sorry, cultural differences won't wash; individual liberties are more important than culture or national sovreignty. >Edupage is written by John Gehl <gehl(a)educom.edu> & Suzanne Douglas ><douglas(a)educom.edu>. Voice: 404-371-1853, Fax: 404-371-8057. >Technical support is provided by Information Technology Services at the >University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. >********************************************************** >Edupage ... is what you've just finished reading. To subscribe to Edupage: >send mail to: listproc(a)educom.unc.edu with the message: subscribe edupage >Edgar Allan Poe (if your name is Edgar Allan Poe; otherwise, substitute >your own name). To unsubscribe send a message to: listproc(a)educom.unc.edu >with the message: unsubscribe edupage. (If you have subscription problems, >send mail to manager(a)educom.unc.edu.)

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Re: Moderation, Tim, Sandy, me, etc. * Strong crypto == DES?!
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"mclow(a)owl.csusm.edu" "Marshall Clow" 5-FEB-1997 04:04:13.13 >At 4:05 PM -0800 2/4/97, aaron(a)herringn.com wrote: >> >>If I might make a suggestion: >> >>Some people want moderation. That's fine, I've never been very big on >>letting other people choose what I read, but some people want it. >> >>For those who want it, let someone moderate the list for as long as >>they care to do it. Approved messages get a "X-sandy-approved" >>header. The responsibility for setting up a filter to toss everything >>that doesn't have the header is the responsibility of the end user. >>Toad will need to filter incoming posts to make sure they don't come >>"pre-approved", but that's the only hole I can think of. >> >>Everyone gets all of the Cypherpunks list. Those who want moderation >>filter the unapproved posts, those who want all of it get all of it. >> >>Hopefully, this will make (almost) everyone happy. >> >I like this idea. >However, I would suggest an additional refinement: > Implement a cypherpunks-moderated list which >is all the 'approved' messages. This way, people who wish >to have the benefits of a filtered list are happy, people who >wish to have posts rated for them (but be able to check on >the "rater") are happy, and people who wish to see every >message are happy. > >(I know that John has concerns about toad's mail capacity, >and this may be too big a load) Lance's offer for informix to host the unmoderated version of the list may be of assistance here. >ObCrypto policy: > Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy >from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon >last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of >the government. D-T is the most "establishment" of the big-6 >accounting firms, last time that I looked. What all did he have to say? -Allen

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Re: what's in a name?
by Dave Hayes 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Greg Broiles <gbroiles(a)netbox.com> writes: > Wei Dai's message raises an important question: what is the relationship > between ownership and list content or quality? I'll assert that ownership can only have a negative impact on content. Freedom is preferable to bias, and hence loss of freedom can only hurt content...according to -my- standard of content anyway. > Are mailing lists an example of a situation where "the tragedy of the > commons" is not a useful metaphor? Yes. Such analogies assume that common people create tragedy, which is only true if their leaders have designed things to work that way. > Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for > good use of resources? The network resources are there to handle email traffic. Attempting to place a non-technical content-based standard on the usage of resources invites censorship and leads to stagnation of ideas. If people would simply learn to filter what they don't like from their net.viewport, there would not be a perceived problem. ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave(a)jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet Nasrudin arrived at an all-comers horse race mounted on the slowest of oxen. Everyone laughed, an ox cannot run. "But I have seen it, when it was only a calf, running faster than a horse.", said Nasrudin. "So why should it not run faster, now that it is larger?"

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Re: My Departure, Moderation, and "Ownership of the List"
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"jer+(a)andrew.cmu.edu" "Jeremiah A Blatz" 5-FEB-1997 06:54:01.96 >On the choke points note, mailing lists are better than usenet because >legendary AOLers with there 5 free hours of fame and their ilk usually >don't figure out how to pester mailing lists. Being on a mailing list >usually requires a commitment, that is enough of a barrier for many of >the usenet underirables. Umm... try reading list-managers for a while on AOL cluelessness for mailing lists. The Usenet AOL undesirables also do things like reading AOL's ever-so-helpful directory of mailing lists (some list managers have asked to have their list taken _off_ of this directory). -Allen

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Re: ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
by Ed.Falk＠Eng.Sun.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hi all; if anybody's interested in having a PGP key-signing party at this event, I'd be willing to organize one. If interested, send me your key (or a pointer to where I can download it), and let me know what times are good for you for the party. -ed falk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQBVAwUBMvkGtzLd6HIbO1jdAQGZFQH9GNbQCwSS09YuPrC9jg43A9NiusV18sdM 66MKMVxIYYi2EstThJVWN8NLYCIGCgOiJnnIJ4ZgkbnAwY9zmZviVw== =4etp -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
by Adam Back 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Declan McCullagh <declan(a)pathfinder.com> writes: > Adam writes: > > >The problem with censorship or moderation is that it waters down the > >absolutism of free speech. Free speech in electronic media, with > >cypherpunks type I, and type II remailers, is the closest thing to > >truly free speech yet. > > I agree and disagree. Moderation often *increases* the value of speech. The > Wall Street Journal, or Time Magazine, or the JAMA have strict policies > regarding what information they print; these policies increase the > publication's value. Their policies impose the editors and owners biases on the publication. If people value their publication they buy it. The average quality of the articles is higher than a discussion group -- the authors spend longer writing the articles, and the best articles are selected by the editors. Unsuprising. The articles are probably biased towards the editors or owners politics. > Moderation is not necessarily censorship. Would you criticize the > National Coalition Against Censorship for not including in their > newsletter (to which I subscribe) off-topic rants by Jesse Helms? A newsletter is not a discussion forum. Editorial control of a newsletter is not moderation of a discussion group. The cypherpunks list is a discussion forum. It's the electronic equivalent of people talking amongst themselves about crypto issues in free time at CFP, or a crypto conference. > What Vulis and the rest (whom I killfiled long ago) have done is > polluted a common resource, making it unusable for the rest. It's > the tragedy of the commons. When all can speak without limit in a > public forum, the drunken boor can shout everyone else down. Dimitri's opinions aren't threatening anything. If you aren't interested in what he says don't read his articles. If you disagree with what he says, argue against it. Subscribe to or start filtering services (rating services) reflecting your views. Personally I think something useful could be done with a content digested form of cypherpunks with ratings, and pointers to the actual posts. Things like: + a thread on the experiment moderation, discussion from John Gilmore, Tim May, and others (hypertext ref) + series of latest ascii art and insults + new crypto developments in article forwarded by JYA +-+ discussion of new crypto developments, and Lucky offers a bet Would take a fair amount of effort from someone to produce a running commentry of cypherpunks discussions to provide a higher level index in to cypherpunks. The price of unconditional free speech is that people will say things which you personally don't agree with, however libertarian you are. The only thing to do is to ignore stuff you don't like, or argue against it, if you say, no this is too crap, or too worthless, then you've started on the slippery slope. It is the same principle that protects your own freedom of expression. It is worth bearing in mind that cypherpunks themselves are part of a minority (the population of people who understand what encryption is and implies, and know what governments are proposing enough to form an opinion on whether crypto should be regulated or not). Adam -- print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

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ANNOUNCEMNT: February 1997 Cypherpunks Bay Area Meeting
by Hugh Daniel 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

What: San Francisco Bay Area Cypherpunks monthly physical meeting When: Saturday February 8th, 1997 Where: Turning Auditorium, Stanford University, Stanford California Agenda: 11:++ setup, gossip, face feeding etc. 12:00 USG Export 'Laws' of the week, Roz Thomsen, PGP inc. 13:00 PGPmail & PGPdisk overview, Dave Del Torto, PGP inc. 14:00 Break 14:30 Announcements, late breaking news, etc. 15:00 The 3 hour 40bit challenge, Ian Goldberg, UCBstudent 16:00 Why bother killing the list?, Hugh Daniel Future Meeting Planing, IPSEC Update, etc. 17:00 This hour left bank for future expansion... Dinner: 18:30 Dinner at Thai City, 3691 El Camino Real, PA (All times are approximate and likely to be totaly ignored...) Directions: Turning Auditorium is in Polya Hall, Jordan Quad, Stanford University, Stanford, Santa Clara County, California, USA. A (bit)map to the part of the Stanford Campus where the meeting will be held is at: http://www-facilities.stanford.edu/transportation/PGrid4.html General directions: - From Hwy 101, take the Embarcadero exit all the way to campus. Turn right (clockwise) on Campus Drive. Turn left into the Jordan Quad parking lot. - From Hwy 280, take Sand Hill. Turn right on Junipero Serra, then left (counterclockwise) onto Campus Drive. Turn right into the Jordan Quad parking lot. Host: Many thanks to Richard Graves <llurch(a)stanford.edu> and to Stanford University for providing the space for this months meeting. Notes: We will have a small NHK (Nipon(Japan)) film crew at much of this meeting, they are doing a documentary and are interested in how this (main) branch cypherpunks works (or does not work as the case may be...). We have a wonderful space to do demos in this month, Turing Auditorium has Internet, projections screens, audio amps and a Clone-PC and a Macintosh to demo software, web sites etc. If you have something Cypherpunkish to demo, this is the month to do so!

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Re: Deloitte-Touche?
by Mark Voorhees 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:45:30 -0800, Marshall Clow wrote: >It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because >I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It >was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional >manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed >accountant who was representing a large >corporation whose job it is to help people obey the >government. I'm almost certain that Murray is a consultant rather than or in addition to an accountant. He's been saying these things for years at conferences, in papers, on mailing lists, etc. Mark

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