December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
by John Gilmore 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> - Is a pentium up to the task of running a list of this size and > volume? A pentium is definitely up to this task. I've been running it the whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and general computing). Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB) because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the msg times out). Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will have dozens running at the same time. The new version of majordomo (that allows confirmation of subscriptions) will help a lot. It needs a small patch though, to do exponential backoff on the lock file, or when you get a flood of messages, thirty majordomo processes will burn up the whole machine trying and failing to get the lock file. You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without unsubscribing. The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of email a day; more when the list is under attack. You'll want to run the latest version of BIND on the machine, too, since doing DNS name-lookups on a thousand email addresses is expensive. You want them all in the in-memory cache on the same machine. The name daemon burns about 7MB virtual, 5MB real RAM once its cache gets loaded. Make sure that every message sent to the list gets into at least two logfiles -- on separate partitions, in case one fills up. At least if you want to have an archive of what's been sent. > I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to > MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest. Make sure you are getting "transit" service to the Internet, instead of trying to cheap out with "peering" to a few major networks. Without transit service ("we'll carry your packets to anywhere even if the destination is not on our network") you won't be able to route packets to some places on the net. This will cause mail to those subscribers to sit in the queue for days and then bounce. The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into dealing with problems. Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make trouble for you just because they like to. Spending a day or two cleaning up the mess is just part of the job. Check your level of committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the list's existence into crisis again. It's not a "set it up and forget it" kind of operation. John

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Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:18:46 -0600 (CST) > From: ichudov(a)algebra.com > Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" > John Gilmore wrote: > > A pentium is definitely up to this task. I've been running it the > > whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and > > general computing). Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB) > > because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on > > the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the > > msg times out). Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each > > sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will > > have dozens running at the same time. My approach to this problem has been to use a 1G drive and mount the entire file system on it. Swap and MS-Dos each get their own partitions. This allows the use of the entire drive as a buffer. I am in the process of adding another 1G in approx. two weeks with the intent of moving /home off the main drive. This not only gives the system more space but the users as well. I set swap to 4x main ram. I use Linux and have it as one giant partition even though suggested is blocks of 16M, works for me (YMMV). Would be minor to monitor df and alarm when it gets to 200M or something. I must admit however that I am looking at a faster mbrd. and a bigger hard drive in the immediate future to make up for the extra load I expect. Had not really planned on the remailer project however... > > You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or > > some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the > > lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without > > unsubscribing. The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of > > email a day; more when the list is under attack. How about dumping the bounces to /dev/null? I shure don't care if some bozo's (other than mine that is) mailbox goes away. > > Make sure that every message sent to the list gets into at least > > two logfiles -- on separate partitions, in case one fills up. At > > least if you want to have an archive of what's been sent. I have no intention of acting as an archive. I personaly see that as a 'subscriber' issue. Potentialy even a business if the archive were suitably databased. Of course with the distributed model any member is potentialy capable of this. > > > I can provide a pentium box running Linux with a T1 connection to > > > MAE-West to host the list, if there is still interest. I would certainly be interested in your involvment with the Distributed Remailer. > > The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into > > dealing with problems. Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but > > there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make > > trouble for you just because they like to. Spending a day or two > > cleaning up the mess is just part of the job. Check your level of > > committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you > > won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the > > list's existence into crisis again. It's not a "set it up and forget > > it" kind of operation. I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills. > Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day > instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce > faster and not clog the queue. I like this idea very much. Myself I would set it for like 4 hours or so and if it couldn't be delivered then bye bye. Another motivation for selective sites to operate as archives without themselves being remailers. Another issue related to this is at what point to unsubscribe accounts. It seems to me that if the address times out some number of times it should be deleted. Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway? Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Win '95 disk crypto...
by harka＠nycmetro.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Forwarded message: In> Subject: SOFT> Encrypted disks for Windows NT In> From: softwinter(a)post1.com In> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:13:22 +0200 (IST) In> Soft Winter Corporation, February 10, 1997 released: In> Shade - strong encryption software for Windows NT. In> Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file. In> Such a device can then be formatted using any file system In> (like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference In> is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation In> and decrypt it on every read operation. In> To download go to: http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il In> Soft Winter Corporation, In> softwinter(a)post1.com Ciao Harka /*************************************************************/ /* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE ...more info at */ /* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */ /* E-mail: harka(a)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */ /* PGP public key available upon request. [KeyID: 04174301] */ /* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5 28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */ /*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/ /* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve */ /* and may all living beings find the way to happiness... */ /*************************************************************/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBMv/y1TltEBIEF0MBAQHJGAf8Cyqr97JIRraQNIS+ioHQiT5KDEozoI5w i7C1pEtMk39WX/dmmcECR561KS3/8595a4mf7bebJ9iS8Bl6ZewSHE6F/oo0biWn rLfmCVIAy23ADoww/rwLXhWxntybjQAr2kObbrPhtf8Um8KlmnJ24QTEWWbhugwx UgC+7N4gRAuxv4Qxoshey1oNeASx7cOQ3Q2REj3wsRq1WPFQMkB43lI5YcMQzlYX KgAoCRRLpnRIOpH5gq6qdC8QNs1cy3gZmfoFML/oqBhn0YaxiAs0Hz7LmlSpufgH +7APc4UpVvadRTTi65APbv1BAJQYq+dGo1fhp7Y+rgFYcEeCh4ZC8Q== =0p9D -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...

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Re: List! No Way: Creati
by harka＠nycmetro.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- -=> Quoting In:attila@primenet.com to Harka <=- In> I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional In> antispam filters including knocking out exploding mail headers, In> etc. I would accept excluding non-members as long as we take the In> remailers which are listed with either JP or RL. Were it possible to use Perry's PGPDomo, which would effectively keep out at least the Spammers? Perry? :) Ciao Harka /*************************************************************/ /* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE ...more info at */ /* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */ /* E-mail: harka(a)nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */ /* PGP public key available upon request. [KeyID: 04174301] */ /* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5 28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */ /*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/ /* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve */ /* and may all living beings find the way to happiness... */ /*************************************************************/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBMv/y/zltEBIEF0MBAQEnBQf/UVcg/iFUtR3hMk2zrNwZmweqE4XA3cLy ixfNNGoKO6cP0oUnSrqRoWW4LtMrHamMldBMXmFARmkh3joqgFZpzXSwCbiCSFtv yN7tDOmfzvDfI4gRpohuc7ou3rMMlbjs/lZamJAV5iByE8Kh3/phcvOmb5u9zjWK m/bcLsje39fLpIeMHL3y0jYf4Z5wyvb4dndBVeF+m50IguT9hVd3KZ4hza2XiKQr zPkX1Y2uDW1vq9/m2Wd9PLxnio5hrbOuLHdVFzTUxcVBfnJjMB0rrexW3z/2KqJ8 4V0r3xZXqui5z6k55PQTrVZt9Hqb+zVDoDAAA/tzMfHpVU+MOnM3Xg== =Jtwu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...

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Remove
by unknown＠example.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Please remove our e-mail address from your services we received three viruses from erractic re-mail. Thank You Allen Woffard

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Re: Filling Power Vacuums
by joburger＠mail.evansville.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> heh. perhaps "leadership" involves more than posting. perhaps there > is a way to have "leadership" without hierarchy. perhaps "leadership" > is not equivalent to "management". perhaps sometimes > you win by losing, and lose by winning. perhaps water is so powerful > because it is lower than all that which it flows around. Could you explain the bit about having leadership w/o hierarchy. Yes ,if there is an informal leadership such as what Tim was refering to, then their is no heirarchy. However, as soon as people get designated as 'leaders' or 'moderators' then one has to have heirechy in that no matter how the various pieces of a system are arranged, they have to be arranged somehow, even completely at random. imho (which you seem to have so many of) you could spare the pseudo-Zen BS. > <Now, of course, the message is being sent that Sandy Sandfort is in some > <sense the de facto leader, being that he determines what traffic goes out > <to the main list and what traffic gets bounced into the flames list. In > <fact, I'll make a prediction: The media will see that he is the chief > <censor and arbiter of worthiness and will increasingly contact him for the > <Official Point of View on various items they are interested in. > > timmy, why are you so upset about the media angle? why do you give the > slightest damn what the media thinks? answer: because you want to be > the one they call when they want to know what the cypherpunks think. > you want them to pay attention to the cypherpunks. in short, you would > like to have the glamor of a leader, without any of the responsibility. I don't think he was suggesting this in the least, he is quite capable of defending himself. I don't particularly like the idea of someone that I had no part in choosing being seen as representative of my views. > I think you would be surprise at the realization that "leaders" exist > in those so-called "anarchies" Key word 'so-called' An anarchie is usually a conceptual ideal that is never reached, sorta like a democracy. > <I am resentful and suspicious of people who _do_ step into the > <"power vacuum" to lead and control. > <Now I grant you that Sandy's form of leadership and control is relatively > > apparently in your brain, "lead" == "control" Dosen't it though? How else can one 'lead'. Even if just by setting an example the leader is changing the follower's actions, e.g. controlling. Granted the follower is volentarily submitting to this control, but it is control none the less. Most other cases of hard leadership are not as nice. Josh

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Network of majordomos
by Greg Broiles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote: >[...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to >start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list. >[...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which >are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures >taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop. I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology. Instead of installing Majordomo, why not install INN, pass traffic as newsgroup(s) (if you don't like alt.cypherpunks, you could simply start your own top-level cpunks group(s)), and leave your NNTP port(s) open (or read-only, if you're an evil CIA brain-stealing censor) so that cpunks at large could connect with newsreaders or their own servers and send/rcv newsgroup traffic? Many cpunks could do this (instead of using Majordomo) locally, connecting to each other to achieve wide propagation and low latency. And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to people who want it as E-mail. Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing: it's a distributed database of messages designed to facilitate each server getting its own copy of every message, and holding it locally for distribution to interested readers. Other people have been kind enough to write, debug, and document the software - all you have to do is install it. This could be running tonight. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQEVAgUBMwDefP37pMWUJFlhAQGg8wf/R/XcPI7UTmiktI0ce0cR0x54O2pTr2ju WRZ3OXNV7X8xOmU8zhvj/Q6Rg0etZRmDfj9wM51mCZuOx6uh94IlFvBTpFnEz8Vg tM3zeWSt/SukyGfxRLkrRYF4GMU5eKEYBYI7p/3q6WioYBk4JI22EeAyr5Cn+1IA icMJhCpfUE6P1YoC+7zPh+Kbp8Ny3tCtry/axsSZfVRsBZr2M33VONe47quC1l5A CBEEllkeSZey6VfAhrBxLOGiD42evx/TYU1yeR2bhcHUcQ0e5MTR8o8eDBoreuXF ntT9vD0Ov0BEhP2j5r6xC6WcFX0iEynxwErC3nNURPE5CPCoRXws/w== =w4Av -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles(a)netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. |

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Re: Shade Disk Encryptor for NT Registration key
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>SoftWinter Support >softwinter(a)post1.com >http://softwinter.bitbucket.co.il Shade looks like an interesting product, and anything that fits into 64K these days (even if that is the size of the zip file) deserves some respect :-) For cypherpunks - it's using MDC as its crypto algorithm, with 160-bit SHA as the hash. I can't tell if that's the original SHA or the revised SHA-1. The readme.txt is adapted from Peter Gutmann's MDC documentation. The demo version runs for 21 days, and doesn't do encryption, so perhaps the real thing is a bit larger. List price is $149 US. I couldn't get it to run - I'm using NT 3.51, which you haven't tested it on, rather than NT 4.0; it complained about not being able to find Image_List_SetImageCnt in COMCTL32.dll or something like that. Perhaps that's related to not having installation instructions with the demo? there's a SecDisk.sys that looks like it wants something done with it... Or perhaps it's just a 3.51 vs. 4.0 difference. Oh, well... > Shade allows you to create encrypted disk device inside a file. > Such a device can then be formated using any file system > (like NTFS or FAT) and used as a regular disk. The only difference > is that Shade will encrypt the data on every write operation > and decrypt it on every read operation. I assume it's possible to use this for TEMP directories for applications like word processors. I'm not sure I'd want to use it for swap, but do you know if that would work? # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)

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alt.cypherpunks
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hey, folks, I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting process, or anything else. They just happened. Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds it to the available groups list at his own discretion. It's not like we want comp.cypherpunks or something, with a voting process, right? Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

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Re: Network of majordomos
by Peter Hendrickson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 1:09 PM 2/11/1997, Greg Broiles wrote: >At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote: >> [...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to >> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list. >> [...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which >> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures >> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop. > I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology.... > And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to > people who want it as E-mail. > Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing:... How about this? The people who like Usenet should race ahead and set it up. The people who like networks of majordomos should race ahead and set those up. Just so long as the tracks meet somewhere in Utah. The more people are involved with distributing the "list" the more robust it will be. Peter Hendrickson pdh(a)best.com

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Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
by ichudov＠algebra.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

i have already set up majordomo(a)algebra.com and cypherpunks(a)algebra.com and can join. igor Firebeard wrote: > > >>>>> John Gilmore writes: > > JG> Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the > JG> original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19). And it's a good > JG> thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get off > JG> its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer exist. > > [...] > > JG> This is a "put up or shut up" to the cypherpunks community. > > This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm > "putting up". I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to > start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list. I > didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first > pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to > speed things up. Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which > are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures > taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop. As the resulting > mailing list from each 'domo will be identical, periodically > (initially weekly), the subscriber lists of all of the participating > majordomos will be compared, with any duplicate subscribers being > removed from the 'domo(s) with the longest subscriber list. There > will be no filtering done of any mail to the collective list, although > anyone interested in providing a filtered list will be welcome to > subscribe to the list. Anyone interested in joining the 'domo network > with the conditions described (duplicate subscriber checking and no > filtering) is welcome. > > John, I'd appreciate your permission to use your Cypherpunks > welcome message as the basis for the welcome message of this new list. > Also, while we will make every effort to have this new list available > for subscriptions by Feb 20, I'd appreciate it if you could consider > making the current list available for a short period longer if we > encounter unanticipated difficulties. > > -- > #include <disclaimer.h> /* Sten Drescher */ > ObCDABait: For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the > flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. [Eze 23:20] > ObFelony: President Clinton, you suck, and those boys died! > Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee. > - Igor.

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Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
by Timothy C. May 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup, >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks, >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that. > >A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages >over an alt.* newsgroup: > >1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.* >2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars >3) The propagation will be a lot better >4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers > not carrying alt.*. > >I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup worse than >alt.* newsgroup. Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating "alt.cypherpunks." But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permission or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the ground. (Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would skew discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part of sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.) Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli may host a list. Fine with me. But I wonder how long Tivoli and its parent company, IBM, will tolerate such things as postings of dumpster divings at Mykotronx and RSADSI, of deliberate slams against Tivoli products (a la the case John Gilmore referred to this morning), postings about assassination markets, and so on. I still feel that the time has come to move virtual forums such as ours out of U.S. jurisdictions. Given that most European nations are worse in some ways (no Holocaust denial posts allowed in "cypherpunks(a)foobar.de"?), I recommend the alt.cypherpunks as the best overall compromise. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: List! No Way: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
by Timothy C. May 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 7:11 PM +0000 2/11/97, Attila T. Hun wrote: > tim: > > two points you make: > > 1. the propogation is slow... > > 2. some sites do not carry alt. groups > > are enough to kill an active discussion list. of course, it does > slow down excessive volume. Good points. However, I'm used to fairly robust debate on Usenet, and the prop delay does not seem too stifling to me. As you note, it cuts down on immediate replies; this may not be a bad thing. I see any site which can be identified with a corporate or institutional entity--like C2Net, toad, Tivoli, Primenet, Netcom, whatever--being targetted if a controversial mailing list is hosted at that site. (This may not have been the case when the list was full unmoderated, and was only a "reflector" or exploder of incoming messages. As soon as a moderator started passing on some messages and rejecting others, the precedent was set (somewhat) for charges that a site or sysadmin is now liable. This has not been tested in court, of course, but I fear this is how things will go. As I mentioned in another message, had the traffic in alt.religion.scientology instead flowed through a site such as "scientology(a)primenet.com," the operators of Primenet and the sysadmin of that mailing list almost certainly would have received "decease and cyst" orders. Remember that Netcom was hit with similar orders. Usenet cannot be stopped in this way. A major strength.) > I vote we just set up a new majordomo with some additional antispam > filters including knocking out exploding mail headers, etc. I would > accept excluding non-members as long as we take the remailers which > are listed with either JP or RL. This is a suggestion I have long thought to be a good one. Only allow posts from list subscribers, and make a special exception for remailers by adding them to the approval list. Figure if a spammer is smart enough to know what a remailer is, at least see her traffic for a while. Drop the inclusion of remailers if volume is too high. (Or, put remailer messages in a special place. An ftp or Web site, for retrieval. Or have list members "vet" the remailed messages, as someone was suggesting a few months back. Or....) > Likewise, Jim Choate and Sten Drescher apparently are trying to > establish a multi-site majordomo. the extra work of maintaining > non-duplicates and sychronization makes the task non-trivial and > questionable... Yeah, it seems to be one of those potentially good ideas that will just never get done, due to the difficulties, the maintenance, and the press of other projects. (And even if it gets done, which I hope for of course, I doubt many of us will want anything with added complexity, new commands for our posting software to deal with, etc. So, it will have to look just like an ordinary mailing list, with the mirroring handled transparently.) (Speculation: Isn't some of this talk about distributed mailing list sites and mirroring beginning to echo the structure of FidoNet?) --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
by Jeremiah A Blatz 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- mpd(a)netcom.com (Mike Duvos) writes: > John Gilmore <gnu(a)toad.com> writes: > > Sandy has agreed to continue moderation through the end of the > > original 1-month experiment (through Feb 19). And it's a good > > thing, too, because the "cypherpunks community" had better get > > off its whining butt in the next ten days, or it will no longer > > exist. > > Ten days notice to relocate a high volume mailing list is > insufficient. This is yet another ultimatum by a whining coward > who does not yet realize he is in a battle he is not going to win > by escalation of reciprocal pissing. <big, disgusted, snip> You know, I was vaugley offended by John's comments about whiny cypherpunks, until I read this message and realized who he was talking about. John, thank you for your years of service to the cypherpunk community 9such as it is), and Sandy, thanks for your well-intentioned (but doomed from day one) efforts to take some resopnsibility for our current mess. It's too bad things had to end in such a pissy way, but anyone who wants to dole out blame should realize that in an anarchy, all members are responsible for the maintainence of freedom. Jer "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBMwEAm8kz/YzIV3P5AQHEagL8Co832vJ75u3U0zfEYp8ixZ1yGM1sx4jQ Aybf55rSeeCUVIOpxgWL03NHEm2+5l9eIAg6qxbne4UZpURu79suMJGe1i5p8ekT UIJsRRZTpq6OVr9w86uJHl3HDvaM9CnK =SeWH -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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NEW CYPHERPUNKS LIST (was Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up") (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:49:46 GMT > From: Adam Back <aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk> > > > This appears to be as good a time as any to announce that I'm > > "putting up". I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to > > start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list. I > > didn't intend to announce this until Jim and I had gotten the first > > pair of 'domos working properly, but this means that we'll need to > > speed things up. Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which > > are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures > > taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop. > I'll contribute what I had planned: > > As a stop gap measure you could create a standard majordomo at the > beefiest of your 'domo hosts. While it is true I was planning on bringing the Austin Cpunks remailer back (kourier.ssz.com) this rather unexpected expansion has got me backpedalling. So it looks like it will take about 3 weeks to get the intial site ready for public access. Right now my ISDN based site is all we have working. We have another site through another ISP in the process of registering and configuration. I have currently created a 'cypherpunks(a)ssz.com' but still have a couple of other issues to work out. The most relevant one is that I will be upgrading both Linux and Majordomo in approx. 2 weeks. We will be discussing this issue further on Saturday at the Austin Cypherpunks meeting. If all goes well with our discussion and my upgrade we should have the SSZ cypherpunks site available in about 2 weeks. Sten and I hope that we can pursuade some others to get involved both running remailers as well as modifying the various scripts. At this point everything we do will be released to the public domain. We also are expecting to add a proviso that all submissions to the cpunks distributed remailer will be de facto public domain unless a specific 'fair use' header is included in each submission. Finaly, another issue that will slow me down is the upcoming SRL show here in Austin. I have committed time and effort so I don't know yet how the conflicts will come or how I will resolve them. The next SRL planning meet is Thu. nite so I will have a clearer idea of my upcoming schedule. > Or you could create a quick 'n dirty mail exploder, by taking the > current subscribers, and putting 100 mail addresses in a .forward file [much good comments cut out] > Final comment: perhaps you've investigated this, but what Perry > Metzger has for the majordomo running cryptography(a)c2.net is excellent > at stopping people forging subscribe and unsubscribe messages. > > And would really cut down the nuisance of people subscribing others > without their knowledge. These are several of the issues that we will be discussing this Saturday. We will also be looking at various means to distribute the subscriber list. The current lead suggestion is to have subscriptions at any of the cpunks be evenly distributed among them. This would somewhat complicate the subscriber process. Another aspect that I am hot to trot on is setting the system up so that some of the cpunks sites could be anonymous, crypto, or combo remailers as well. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Re: Cocksucker Gilmore's Big Adventure
by Eric Cordian 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

A Gilmore Supporter writes: > You know, I was vaugley offended by John's comments about whiny > cypherpunks, until I read this message and realized who he was talking > about. John, thank you for your years of service to the cypherpunk > community 9such as it is), John Gilmore's only contribution to Cypherpunks has been to provide a box. I can't even remember the last time he contributed something of interest to the list, and he certainly ranks as one of the least frequent contributors of substance over the years. Any goodwill John might have built up by letting us all use his box has certainly been eradicated over the last few weeks by his takeover of the list, and the series of edicts which followed. Yes, it was nice of John to donate the use of his box, back in the days when he did not feel the urge to exercise unilateral editorial control. But if it hadn't been his box, it would have been someone elses box, and our gratitude towards him shouldn't be so great that we are willing to sit back and let him do major damage to that which "Cypherpunks" is supposed to stand for, lest someone claim we are unappreciative. > and Sandy, thanks for your well-intentioned > (but doomed from day one) efforts to take some resopnsibility for our > current mess. It's too bad things had to end in such a pissy way, but > anyone who wants to dole out blame should realize that in an anarchy, > all members are responsible for the maintainence of freedom. Sandy, unlike Herr Gilmore, has been a major contributor of substance to the list since its inception, and hopefully he will continue to be in the future. The idea that he should moderate the list was of course a silly one, but for reasons which do not reflect badly on him in the least. What Mr. Blatz fails to realize is that the "problem" which certain people tried to solve never really existed. The quality of the Cypherpunks list is determined solely by the amount of signal, not by the amount of noise, unless one is getting ones feed of the list via 1200 baud long distance UUCP. Anyone can create signal by writing about relevant topics, and if you feel signal is lacking in your particular area of interest, feel free to add some. The notion that the list was ever threatened by the humour of Dr. Vulis, or the one line bot-spammed insults about Tim May's heritage, is an absurd one. No one should have had any problem ignoring such material, and only a politically naive fool would buy this as the excuse for the blatant usurpation of the list by Gilmore and crew. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

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whois cypherpunks.org ?
by Anil Das 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

With all this talk about relocating the home of cypherpunks, I decided to see if any second level domains are registered under the cypherpunks name. Both cypherpunks.org and cypherpunks.com are registered by one Elias M. Levy in Ft. Meade, MD. I haven't seen his name on the list though. Anybody knows more about this? -- Anil Das

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Germany Versus Scientology
by Evil se7en 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I have posted a rather lengthy story about Germany's war against the Scientologists. It was long enough to preclude mailing it directly to the lists, so I have put it on my web site. You may find it at: http://www.dis.org/se7en/ with the link being directly under the large "X." I decided to post it for the reasons that I know several people who suffered directly at the hands of the Scientologists after trying to infiltrate their organization via the Internet. These people will recieve this message due to this posting. Enjoy. se7en

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http:--cnnfn.com-digitaljam-wires-9702-11-hackers_wg-
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Click here to download the shareware YOU want at ZDNet [INLINE] Digital Jam hackers graphic Hackers victimize firms Experts tell House panel breaking into networks is too simple February 11, 1997: 6:17 p.m. ET [INLINE] Hackers and Feds in Vegas - July 31, 1996 Internet firms make hacking pay - April 12, 1996 WASHINGTON (Reuter) -- Hackers are finding it easier to break into computer networks and steal money, partly because companies are reluctant to admit that they are vulnerable, security experts said Tuesday. [INLINE] "If I want to steal money a computer is a much better tool than a handgun," Daniel Geer, engineering director for Open Market, Inc., told a House of Representatives technology subcommittee hearing on computer security. "They start out stealing $1,000 a day and figure they can get away with $2,000 a day and then they get greedy and hit some figure which sets off alarm bells." [INLINE] A panel of experts assembled by the subcommittee said many companies refuse to report breaches in their security because they want to avoid negative publicity and embarrassment. [INLINE] "Most computer crimes are not reported," Eugene Spafford of Purdue University told the panel. He estimated losses run into "hundreds of millions of dollars" but said no one really knows since so much goes unreported. [INLINE] Daniel Farmer, a security consultant, said penetrating a computer system is relatively easy. "Just using simple tests, I could break into two-thirds of the systems I tried," he said, adding that he could easily raise that figure to three-quarters if he wanted. [INLINE] Farmer said that during his tests he even discovered a problem with the White House World Wide Web site and told the system manager about it. He said he never received a reply. [INLINE] "Defensive programs have been overtaken by offensive programs" developed by hackers, he said. [INLINE] Spafford said law enforcement has kept pace with advances made by hackers who are able essentially to take over entire networks and run them by remote control. [INLINE] In addition to banks and corporations, the experts said, government secrets can be stolen and used to threaten national security. They cited recent computer network tampering at the Justice Department and the CIA. [INLINE] A General Accounting Office study recently found that there were 250,000 "hits" aimed at the Defense Department's computer networks last year and 65 percent were successful. Link to top home | digitaljam | contents | search | stock quotes | help Copyright 1997 Reuters. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Copyright © 1997 Cable News Network, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

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Computer break-ins
by Lynne L. Harrison 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: cypherpunks(a)toad.com Date: Tue Feb 11 22:14:30 1997 U.S. Experts: Computer Break-Ins Go Unreported U.S. Experts: Computer Break-Ins Go Unreported February 11, 1997, 4:19 PM EST WASHINGTON (Reuter) - Security experts said on Tuesday hackers are finding it easier to break into computer networks and steal money, partly because companies are reluctant to admit that they are vulnerable. ``If I want to steal money a computer is a much better tool than a handgun,'' Daniel Geer, Director of Engineering for Open Market, Inc., told a House of Representatives technology subcommittee hearing on computer security. ``The only way they get caught is if they cross some threshold,'' he said. ``They start out stealing $1,000 a day and figure they can get away with $2,000 a day and then they get greedy and hit some figure which sets off alarm bells.'' A panel of experts assembled by the subcommittee said many companies refuse to report breaches in their security because of they want to avoid negative publicity and embarassment. ``Most computer crimes are not reported,'' Eugene Spafford of Purdue University told the panel. He estimated losses run into ``hundreds of millions of dollars'' but said no one really knows since so much goes unreported. Daniel Farmer, a security consultant, said penetrating a computer system was relatively easy. ``Just using simple tests, I could break into two-thirds of the systems I tried,'' he said, adding that he could easily raise that figure to three-quarters if he wanted. Farmer said that during his tests he even discovered a problem with the White House World Wide Web site and told the system manager about it, but never received a reply. ``Defensive programs have been overtaken by offensive programs'' developed by hackers, he said. Spafford said law enforcement had not been able to keep up with advances made by hackers who are able essentially to take over entire networks and run them by remote control. In addition to banks and corporations, the experts said, government secrets can be stolen and threaten national security. They cited recent computer network tampering at the Justice Department and the CIA. A General Accounting Office study found that there were 250,000 ``hits'' aimed at the Defense Department's computer networks last year and 65 percent were successful. =A9 Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMwE1lz5A4+Z4Wnt9AQHlrAQAi4X7MTb8CbWTaQZfdLIfwzkMkzT1g/gi QPcdaPedbgG6tU8SBS5trqyXu5JvwaVomEUpW+qrKT0JzD8a1Lyf23dgK5qLM+/+ fDWz08KaxsW3uymTRNBZo2gl/ZwpdU7DeQoReOkAqQyBXPWeoBRwYbyGu1pDlHBB yK3hRY2MrEk= =Ht0R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --j0geb1id6lkzfrn2of7klxdtm3pg8j--

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Cypherpunks-resources FAQ for alt.cypherpunks
by omegam＠cmq.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I am under the assumption that alt.cypherpunks or alt.privacy.cypherpunks or some such will come into existence shortly. With that in mind, I have decided to create a FAQ of pointers to resources on cypherpunk issues. The goal is to help eliminate the "What is PGP?" and other newbie-questions that are bound to come up even more frequently in a newsgroup scenario. A FAQ such as this has probably long been appropriate, but it didn't really occur to me until just now. Not being a cryptologist or adequate coder, this is one way I feel I can contribute. It's hard to have discussions when people haven't even looked at the background information before piping in. I don't pretend that a FAQ can prevent this, but it's worth a shot anyway. I started typing away about two hours ago and came up with the following. It's pretty shaky since it's late and it's Mardi Gras. Feel free to comment in public or private. Please, Please, Please make suggestions and provide relevant pointers. Obviously, I will be doing a lot of research over the next few weeks to fill in this very bare outline. If you disagree with this or feel its useless... fine. Please tell me and explain all your reasons why. Besides, I'm doing it regardless. Here's what I'm chewing on so far.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Cypherpunks Resources FAQ version 0.000000001 This document lists resources for readers interested in Cypherpunk issues and goals. The primary intention of this document is to get new readers to the group to explore the background issues which cypherpunks attempt to address. It also includes pointers to many common cryptographic implementations and tools. Furthermore, pointers and instructions for various mailreaders are provided to help users filter out some of Usenet's inevitable noise and glean the most useful information they can from this newsgroup. This FAQ does not attempt to explictly define who the Cypherpunks are or answer questions about the philosophy. That is an exercise for the reader who utilizes the pointers within to find the answers on their own. After exploring these resources, the hope is that the reader will become a more effective and insightful contributor to alt.cypherpunks -- even if he/she is opposed to the goals of the group. This FAQ is propagated monthly to alt.cypherpunks. It can also be obtained be sending email with the subject and/or body "get cpunks faq" to omegam(a)cmq.com. When information in the FAQ is updated, I will also post a "what's new" message for those who are interested in reading additions/corrections without wading throught the entire FAQ again. -------*********------- Author's Note/Disclaimer ---------*********--------- I maintain this FAQ solely on a voluntary basis. I am doing this because I think it is necessary. It would be contrary to the anarchic nature of the Cypherpunks to attempt to call this an official FAQ of the Cypherpunks group. Anyone who disagrees with the editing decisions and pointer selections I have made in this FAQ is free to. What this means is that you are encouraged to send comments, suggestions, corrections, new questions, and answers to me. I may or may not include them in future revisions of the FAQ. I do ask that somewhere in the subject of your mail redarding this FAQ you include the text "(CFAQ suggest)", so procmail can file such comments appropriately and I can address them in a more efficient manner. If I use your suggestion or answer to a question, I will attribute the reference to you unless you request that I do not. You are free to create your own Cypherpunks-resources FAQ if you don't like mine. - Scott _______________________________________________________________ Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com> PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get a copy of my public key _______________________________________________________________ -------*********--------*********---------********--------*********------ Premliminary Outline Section 1 Introduction and General Information? Q1.1 Does this newsgroup have a charter (No but, Tim's "official" charter. Eric's note at end of original toad.com welcome message) Q1.2 How did the group get started? (Need a brief history of group as well as any pointers to early history information and posts, also include pointer to early wired article) Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want? (May's Cyphernomicon, CSUA Berkely site, Others?) Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list? Are there archives? (Brief explanation, quote Gilmore's message? point to the usual archives? Note: check and note if arhive site still prevents IE usage) Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals. (point to Epic, EFF, etc sites which all have good archival information on political crypto causes even if many cpunks have strong disagreement with some of these groups. also point to Cryptography(a)c2.net and coderpunks lists) Q1.6 What have the cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that merely talk about them?(Pointers to anon remailers, Linux-IPSEC project, Mykotronx scandal--really need a good pointer here, more. Mention of course that many who call themselves cypherpunks are professionals in the computer security field.) Q1.7 Im interested, what can I do? Pointers to current projects, i distributed DES crack Q1.8 Quick n' Dirty Glossary: ie. GAK, TLA, etc. Section 2 Crypto in Action Q2.1 Pointers galore to PGP resources. Q2.2 Point to Schneir's site and include biblio info on Applied Crypto Q2.2 Point to cryptlib toolkits Q2.3 RSA, of course. Q2.4 pointers to disk encryption utilities for various platforms Q2.5 pointers to Raph's remailer site and other remailer info sites. remailer software. software to make remailer usage simpler (premail, PIdaho) Q2.6 pointers to the various digital cash purveyors and to explanations of how Chaumian digital cash works. Q2.7 pointers to Apache-SSL site and info, Stronghold, Q2.8 SSH Q2.9 Pointers to sites describing how various types of crypto actually work Q3.0 But how do I know if it's good crypto? Point to snake Oil FAQ? Schneir's essay. Use your brain. Section 3 Crypto and the Law Q3.1 Froomkin's site obviously.. John Young's also obvious. EFF has a good archive too. Karn case, others. Q3.2 Pointers to government's current position on crypto. ie. EAR, ITAR Q3.3 Pointers past Clipper failure info. Section 4 Who's who & (recent) History of Crypto. Q4.1 A couple of good general history sites exist. also Codebreakers bibliographical reference. Q4.2 Enigma is a common question, point to relevant sites. Q4.3 Whit Diffie--some interviews etc are available Q4.4 Bruce Schneir same Q4.5 Phil Z and PGP history and interviews. Q4.6 Jim Bizdos Q4.8 Dorothy Denning (go to include the enemy too) Q4.7 Pointers to news on breaks of ciphers Q4.8 NSA site. (Others? I'm getting sleepy, names escaping me at the moment) Question 5 Help! I want to know more but I'm drowning in noise Q5.1 Point to filtered lists in existence Q5.2 news2mail gateways as source of list. mail filtering tools come into good use. point to a bunch of them. Q5.3 Point to kill-file info for various newsreaders and platforms. Possibly include generic examples from own experience and list user's experience who wish to contribute. Specific names will be ommitted of course. Also score information for those interested Q5.4 point to information on other utilities and verification-type schemes _______________________________________________________________ Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com> PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get a copy of my public key _______________________________________________________________

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Mac-Crypto 1997 session Schedule
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Sender: mac-crypto(a)thumper.vmeng.com Reply-To: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie(a)webstuff.apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Precedence: Bulk Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:43:19 -0800 From: Vinnie Moscaritolo <vinnie(a)webstuff.apple.com> To: Multiple recipients of <mac-crypto(a)thumper.vmeng.com> Subject: Mac-Crypto 1997 session Schedule hey all; I have posted a preliminary list of sessions for the 1997 Mac-Crypto conference at the Mac-Crypto conference at the webpage http://www.vmeng.com/mc/conf.html if you haven't registered, please get your name in now! if you want to give a talk, please drop me a line asap. Vinnie Moscaritolo http://www.vmeng.com/vinnie/ Fingerprint: 4FA3298150E404F2782501876EA2146A ------------------------------------------------------- ...I know what probably happened. A new high-level manager at Apple picked up some old dusty videotape off the shelf, labelled "Super Bowl 1984", played it and said, "Yah know, that guy on the screen was making a hell of a lot of sense until that trouble-maker smashed it!" --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

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Re: Network of majordomos
by Greg Broiles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 02:08 PM 2/11/97 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote: >At 1:09 PM 2/11/1997, Greg Broiles wrote: >>At 10:45 AM 2/11/97 -0600, Firebeard wrote: >>> [...] I've already taken steps, along with Jim Choate, to >>> start a network of majordomos hosting a Cypherpunks mailing list. >>> [...] Our intention is to have a set of majordomos which >>> are intersubscribed to a cypherpunks list on each one, with measures >>> taken to ensure that mail loops don't develop. > >> I still think you're just rediscovering Usenet technology.... > >> And, if you must, run mail-to-news gateway(s) which send the newsgroup to >> people who want it as E-mail. > >> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing:... > >How about this? The people who like Usenet should race ahead and set >it up. The people who like networks of majordomos should race ahead >and set those up. Just so long as the tracks meet somewhere in Utah. As I understand the creation process for an alt. group, someone posts a proposal to alt.config explaining what's being proposed, waits a week or so to see if there's a general sense of approval or disapproval or [...] and then they send a newgroup control message. Individual systems will choose to add the new group, or not, depending on local policy, administrator whim, and so forth. I sent a proposal to alt.config last night (a few hours before I got John's message indicating that the list is going away, so I wasn't able to include that fact in my message; it was also ~ 10 hours before I saw Tim's message re alt.cypherpunks so I was unable to include his more useful statement of the group's purpose) and intend to newgroup alt.cypherpunks in a week or so, absent a clear indication from the people in alt.config that it would be rmgroup'ed or otherwise have a poor chance of success. I don't think a "charter" is especially necessary or useful in the alt. hierarchy. One feature of the "alt." groups is that there's no real control over what happens there. If someone creates a one-way or two-way gateway between one or more mailing lists and alt.cypherpunks, there's nothing anyone else can do about it. (modulo cancelbunny/NoCeM, both of which are optionally honored on a site-by-site basis) So, the tracks will meet in Utah if someone decides to hook them up. Perhaps this will be you? As far as I'm concerned, nobody owns the word "cypherpunks" and we're all free to use it in any way we please - e.g., Igor can suggest "comp.org.cypherpunks", eight people can run "cypherpunks(a)foo.com" mailing lists, and so forth. Looking for one unified acceptable-to-everyone solution is pointless on this list. Let "n" flowers bloom. -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles(a)netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto.

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Re: alt.cypherpunks
by Eric Cordian 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Robert Hettinga writes: > Hey, folks, > I thought all you had to do to create an alt.group was to have a news admin > somewhere just make a group; send out a control message of somekind. I > thought that alt groups didn't have to go through a charter, or voting > process, or anything else. They just happened. > Then, everyone just has to tell their local news admin that they went to > see it, or they can wait until their news admin sees it flying by, and adds > it to the available groups list at his own discretion. In theory, and according to the alt FAQ, anyone can create an alt group. In reality, control messages are merely advisory, and greater weight is lent to control messages which have the imprimatur of the Alt Cabal than to those issued by mere peons. The typical news admin finds that if he honors all rmgroup messages issued by Cabal members, when they disapprove of a newsgroup not previously discussed in alt.config, his life is made simpler, and he no longer has to weed the wheat from the chaf by hand. Since most people are inherently lazy, and most newgroups created outside of the alt.config process are trash, the path of least resistance is to only automatically honor newgroups and rmgroups issued by Cabal members. This is of course the exact antithesis of how alt was supposed to work in the first place, but with the large number of users on the Net at present, it is not practical to create every single newsgroup a person might want automatically. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

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Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
by ichudov＠algebra.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup, we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks, comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that. A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages over an alt.* newsgroup: 1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.* 2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars 3) The propagation will be a lot better 4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers not carrying alt.*. I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup worse than alt.* newsgroup. igor Timothy C. May wrote: > > > (Please leave my name in any replies to ensure I see your comments.) > > I talked to Hugh Daniel at the Saturday meeting about the creation of an > "alt.cypherpunks" unmoderated (of course) newsgroup as a possible > alternative (or supplement) to cypherpunks(a)toad.com. Greg Broiles and John > Gilmore were there for part of the discussion, too. > > (We did not, unfortunately, get to the "future of the list" topic at the > physical meeting...the excellent presentations ran way over the expected > time and we never got to this topic. Sort of too bad, given John's edict > that we have 10 days to find and implement an alternative....) > > A Usenet newsgroup has many advantages and disadvantages. Whether it might > be gatewayed to other mailing lists--perhaps even the list(s) which > survives "cypherpunks(a)toad.com"--depends of course on the decision of those > hosting others lists. > > A charter statement is needed, and then the issuance of a creation message. > A better charter statement will increase the chances of more sites carrying > the newsgroup. While many sites carry essentially all newsgroups--more than > 30,000--, some sites do not and only carry some of the alt.heirarchy. And > some sites do not carry _any_ of the alt newsgroups. > > At Hugh's suggestion, I'm suggesting a "first cut" at a charter statement. > Suggestions for additional language or changes are welcome. > > Charter for alt.cypherpunks: (suggested) > > "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the > political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong > cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed since 1992 and has been > central in the debate about strong crypto, government restrictions, crypto > anarchy, and in showing weaknesses of various ciphers and security > products. The mailing list has had as many as 1500 subscribers, plus > gateways to newsgroups and Web sites. It is expected that "alt.cypherpunks" > will be a free-wheeling forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated, > readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools > for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes." > > I invite your comments, editorial suggestions, etc. Perhaps when enough of > the "collective mind" has made inputs (ughh!), the charter can be submitted > with the creation message. (I'm not knowledgeable about the process, but > I'll bet many of you are.) > > There are of course disadvantages to such a newsgroup, as any Usenet user > certainly knows. However, there are advantages as well. Here are some of > each: > > > * Advantages: > > - Usenet is set up to automagically propagate articles across tens of > thousands of sites. > > - there is no "nexus" of control, no chokepoint, no precedent (in the U.S.) > for halting distribution of Usenet newsgroups. (Canada stopped some > Homulka-Teale newsgroups a few years ago, other countries have blocked > entire sections, but note that the Scientologists have been unable to block > "alt.religion.scientology"...I surmise that a mailing list version of > a.r.s. would have faced lawsuits against the list.owner, if reachable in > U.S. or European courts...a lesson to think about with the current > imbroglio over certain claims about certain products and the possible > liability of Sandy and/or toad.com.) > > - fairly sophisticated newsreading software already exists. > > - no "unsuscribe" and "unscrive" messages! (It makes it easy for newcomers > to discover the group, read it for a while, then stop. It also, of course, > increases the number of "What is crypto?" sorts of messages.) > > - persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list > > - with a Usenet group, there is no ability to impose notions of "order" on > the list (e.g., requirements for PGP-signing, demands for "on-topic" posts, > removal of "illegal" posts, etc.). Thus, people must deal with a virtual > anarchy by using proper tools, by ignoring what they don't want to see, or > by contracting out the role of "nanny" to others. > > > * Disadvantages > > - Usenet newsgroups are easy targets for spammers, even more so than are > mailing lists. > > - crossposting often gets out of hand. (With 30,000+ newsgroups, even > well-intentioned posters often pick the "three or four most likely" targets > for their posts). > > - propagation is often spotty, and some sites have no access at all to the > "alt.*" hierarchy. (Many corporate sites block the alt heirarchy. Many > academic sites block just the alt.binaries.pictures heirarchy. Etc. A news > to mailing list gateway is possible for these readers.) > > - propagation may be slower than mailing lists. > > - Usenet is of course archived and easily searchable via Alta Vista, Deja > News, etc.. This bothers some people. (However, the CP mailing list is now > also archived and searchable, so the disadvantage is becoming moot.) > > - persons cannot be unsubscribed from an unmoderated list (this is also an > advantage, of course) > > - there will be more newbie-type messages, as casual browsers of Usenet > discover alt.cypherpunks and ask questions. This is both a disadvantage and > an advantage. > > > * Discussion of some of these points: > > 1. The issue of slow- or non-propagation can be handled by having mailing > lists which bounce the traffic (from a well-connected site) to folks who > get slow distribution, or no distribution at all. News to mail gateways, in > other words. Traffic in the reverse direction (end reader back to > alt.cypherpunks) can be handled either by "blind posting" to the a.c. > newsgroup, via one's newsreader, or through mail-to-news gateways, or > perhaps via the distributor described here. > > 2. And the services of "moderators," such as Eric Blossom's and Ray > Arachelian's "best of" lists, or even Sandy's list, are of course still > possible. A newsgroup does not change this, except for the latency in > getting messages out to newsgroup sites. > > 3. The advantages of a "no nexus, no chokepoint" distribution are huge. The > Usenet carries huge advantages in terms of having no place to attack it. > > 4. Some have raised the point that Usenet is "inefficient" and should not > be used for this reason. Well, it may indeed be ineficient, but the costs > have already been incurred, and alt.cypherpunks would only be 1/30,000th of > additional load (very roughly speaking). In other words, might as well use > what's out there. If a "second Usenet" ever comes into existence, fine. > > 5. Some of us discussed the creation of alt.cypherpunks back in '92-93. At > that time, we thought the mailing list had some major advantages. In my > view, the situation has changed dramatically since then. The mailing list > has become huge, the volume of noise has increased, majordomo is allowing > the list to be used for spamming (any 'bot system will probably have this), > and the list is already gatewayed to many sites as a _newsgroup_ anyway. > > So, I think the time has come to just create it. The "activation energy > barrier" of a mailing list, where people would have to make the effort to > subscribe, has long since become irrelevant. > > It may be a target for spammers, but it's hard to imagine it being much > worse than what we have now. > > Usenet is an anarchy. We might as well use it. > > I've never created an alt group, but I presume many of you have (and I know > of one currently fed up Cypherpunk who created the entire alt.* hierarchy a > decade or so ago). I presume some of you can thus help in such an effort. > > --Tim May > > > > > > > Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" > We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. > ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- > Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, > tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero > W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, > Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. > "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." > > > > - Igor.

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