December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
by Attila T. Hun 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- on or about 970219:0722 Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> said: +Simple, but.... In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers the +peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim? Both the Rodney +King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of how, when you +switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions. you trying to be some kind of trouble maker? please remember that *all* the fairweather dogooder liberals have been telling us for years that everyone is equal. yeah, right! therefore, juries are obviously color blind, and not dazzled by attorneys calling up racism. yeah, right! as to Powell, he is/was an animal who should have been put away permanently. Koon was an officer's officer (personal experience) and was in the wrong place at the wrong time, not willing to step in. Koon lost 24 years of service without a mark, his pension, and all his benefits with 5 or 6 kids at home --and they had to go into hiding until found by the liberal press again and again who obviously felt the family should be punished as well. we wont even bother with the issues of double jeopardy when they pull a federal civil rights trial on all of them after the state court cleared everyone except Powell who they hung on. they had a clear right to try Powell, noone else. and the video played for evidence missed the first 90 seconds when a very large animal (Rodney King can be described no other way) came out of the car, dancing the jig, and went after Powell. by the time the prosecutors, particularly the Feds, were through itimidating the witnesses, nobody told the truth. Rodney King had been busted for public intoxication, controlled substances, and disorder enough times that he was well recognized for what he was --and easily identified. in the spooks, we called Powell's actions "the red mask" --once you start staring the beast in the eye, you are so wired on there is no stopping until your opponent is jello. 'shocktroops' or 'Stossentruppen' should never be used in civilian police forces, except possibily on SWAT teams, not an average street cop. and why did we have the trial in the first place? simply because the LA Times and KABC decided there was going to be a trial. I dont know whether to chalk it off to their bleeding heart liberals, or just the usual greed for money to be made on high profile news. or is it just more of the usual politically correct beat down of the oppressive whiteface? it is sometimes difficult to defend the LA Police department when you knew Daryll Gates and his predecessor, "Big Ed" Davis. Both of them are cowboys; Big Ed is now a state senator from the far west Valley, what was horse country when I lived there. they had a job to do, and LA is a mean place. the city itself is 2/3 poverty, half of that extreme ghetto and barrio problems. Big Ed is the man who proposed the fitting ending to airline hijackings, and set up his display in plain sight: in front of the American Airlines terminal building 4 at LAX before LAX was double decked. Big Ed parked a 40 ft flat bed trailer out there with a judge's bench at one end and a gallows at the other end with the jury box and dock in between. yes, sir, justice by the hijackers' peers; take the next 12 citizens coming out the doors. perfect and swift justice on someone who has no defense for his actions. everything else falls under this short take by a prominent author discussing the problem with jury selection: "The men who murdered Virginia's [Nevada] original twenty-six cemetary occupants were never punished. Why? Because Alfred the Great, when he invented trial by jury, and knew that he had admirably framed it to secure justice in his age of the world, was not aware that in the nineteenth century the condition of things would be so entirely changed that unless he rose from the grave and altered the jury plan to meet the emergency, it would prove the most ingenious and infallible agency for defeating justice that human wisdom could contrive. For how could he imagine that we simpletons would go on using his jury plan after circumstances had stripped it of its usefulness, any more than he could imagine that we would go not using his candle clock after we had invented chronometers? In his day news could not travel fast, and hence he could easily find a jury of honest, intelligent men who had not heard of the case they were called to try - but in our day of telegraph and newspapers his plan compels us to swear in juries composed of fools and rascals, because the system rigidly excludes honest men and men of brains. "I remember one of those sorrowful farces, in Virginia, which we call a jury trial. A noted desperado killed Mr. B, a good citizen, in the most wanton and cold-blooded way. Of course the papers were full of it, and all men capable of reading read about it. And of course all men not deaf and dumb and idiotic talked about it. A jury list was made out, and Mr. B. L., a prominent banker and a valued citizen, was questioned precisely as he would have been questioned in any court in America: "`Have you heard of this homicide?' "`Yes.' "`Have you held conversations on the subject?' "`Yes.' "`Have you formed or expressed opinions about it?' "`Yes.' "`Have you read newspaper accounts of it?' "`Yes.' "`We do not want you.' "A minister, intelligent, esteemed, and greatly respected; a merchant of high character and known probity; a mining superintendent of intelligence and unblemished reputation; a quartz-mill owner of excellent standing, were all questioned in the same way, and all set aside. Each said the public talk and the newspaper reports had not so biased his mind but that sworn testimony would overthrow his previously formed opinions and enable him to render a verdict without prejudice and in accordance with the facts. But of course such men could not be trusted with the case. Ignoramuses alone could mete out unsullied justice. "When the peremptory challenges were all exhausted, a jury of twelve men was empaneled - a jury who swore they had neither heard, read, talked about, nor expressed an opinion concerning a murder which the very cattle in the corrals, the Indians in the sagebrush, and the stones in the streets were cognizant of! It was a jury composed of two desperadoes, two low beerhouse politicians, three barkeepers, two ranchers who could not read, and three dull, stupid, human donkeys! It actually came out afterward that one of these latter thought that incest and arson were the same thing. "The verdict rendered by this jury was, Not Guilty. What else could one expect? "The jury system puts a ban upon intelligence and honesty, and a premium upon ignorance, stupidity, and perjury. It is a shame that we must continue to use a worthless system because it was good a thousand years ago. In this age, when a gentleman of high social standing, intelligence, and probity swears that the testimony given under solemn oath will outweigh, with him, street talk and newspaper reports based on mere hearsay, he is worth a hundred jurymen who will swear to their own ignorance and stupidity, and justice would be far safer in his hands than theirs. Why could not the jury law be so altered as to give men of brains and honesty an equal chance with fools and miscreants? Is it right to show the present favoritism to one class of men and inflict a disability on another, in a land whose boast is that all its citizens are free and equal? I am a candidate for the legislature. I desire to tamper with the jury law. I wish to so alter it as to put a premium on intelligence and character, and close the jury box against idiots, blacklegs, and people who do not read newspapers. But no doubt I shall be defeated - every effort I make to save the country `misses fire.'" --From "Roughing It" by Mark Twain, Chapter XLVIII. _____________________________________________________________________ "Explain to me, slowly and carefully, why if person A, when screwed over on a deal by B; is morally obligated to consult, pay, and defer to, person C for the purpose of seeing justice done; and why person C has any legitimate gripe, if A just hauls off and smacks B around like a dead carp." ___________________________________________________________attila_____ "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQCVAwUBMwtSiL04kQrCC2kFAQEmrwQAylLGuPHBNqeVij2ll7bnuK2Qn3CCZFTF 0unEYtmWcDxV5YxwyYVVntpujuF0j38/A3XBKKOwkfqt2QibRIKsBq7lkkWjIQvl re2y0q3XE6+/+Iw9gQbeNv2jEBH1fofIOLCKgAOYonjl+TXCMOJC8kJKszmr+QGr uk0yviRPO5c= =wRK0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:01:14 -0500 (EST) To: Multiple Recipients of e$pam <e$pam(a)intertrader.com> From: e$pam(a)intertrader.com (e$pam) Reply-To: e$(a)thumper.vmeng.com X-Comment: To unsubscribe, send any email to e$pam-off(a)intertrader.com Precedence: Bulk Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token X-orig-from: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran(a)deshaw.com> X-e$pam-source: bounce-dcsb(a)ai.mit.edu Forwarded by Robert Hettinga ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:02:14 -0500 From: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran(a)deshaw.com> To: dcsb(a)ai.mit.edu Subject: Mobil adopts no-physical-connection electronic payment token Sender: bounce-dcsb(a)ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Travis J.I. Corcoran" <Travis-Corcoran(a)deshaw.com> FYI, from today's WSJ: ------------------------------ snip! ------------------------------ Mobil Aims to Turn Gas Pumps Into Automatic-Payment Sites By PETER FRITSCH Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL Mobil Corp. hopes to make life in the fast lane a little bit faster. The oil company will introduce Wednesday a miniature electronic-payment device that busy motorists can simply wave at a gasoline pump to fill 'er up. The tiny electronic tag -- called a Speedpass -- clips onto a driver's key ring. Mobil is betting the technology will catch on with drivers tired of fumbling for cash or waiting for a pump to authorize a credit-card purchase. Whether drivers are in such a hurry that they will be interested is an open question. "My key chain already looks like a janitor's," says Carol Coale, a Houston securities analyst. Mobil, which tested the Speedpass over the past six months with 10,000 consumers in St. Louis, says the added convenience can save the motorist valuable time. Mobil's technology, developed in partnership with Texas Instruments Inc. and Dresser Industries Inc., is similar to that used by drivers at bridge and highway toll booths. Once a driver waves the tag at the pump, the pump instantly contacts Mobil's credit department and charges a credit card preselected by the customer. The marketing effort challenges the conventional wisdom of gasoline retailing. Most drivers say location is more important when the gasoline gauge reads "empty" than brand name or price. Mobil's thinking is that the gee-whiz factor of owning the Speedpass, combined with the convenience, will persuade people to go an extra mile to buy from one of Mobil's 7,700 branded stations. Speedpass is also an attempt to help Mobil build on its position as the nation's top gasoline seller. With a 9.9% share of the market, Mobil in 1995 overtook Shell Oil Co. as the leading gasoline seller, as measured in gallons sold. (Figures for 1996 aren't available.) Mobil, which was among the first oil companies to use pay-at-the-pump technology, will introduce Speedpass in key markets by May 1. ------------------------------ snip! ------------------------------ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo(a)ai.mit.edu In the body of the message, write: unsubscribe dcsb Or, to subscribe, write: subscribe dcsb If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB(a)ai.mit.edu -------------------------------------------------- The e$ lists are brought to you by: Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ... Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info(a)hyperion.co.uk Like e$pam? Help pay for it! See <http://www.atanda.com/rah.html> Or, for e$pam sponsorship, see <http://thumper.vmeng.com/pub/rah/> Thanks to the e$ e$lves: Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com> (Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com> Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com> Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com> HTMLurgist: Cynthia Zwerling <mailto:czrider@@webstuff.apple.com> --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

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It's time to move on, kids.
by nobody＠replay.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

As of 2/14/97 there are 1295 subscribers to the cypherpunks mailing list. 85 of those subscriptions are to other mail-exploders. Smoke 'em if you got 'em. -Golem

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Detweiler trolls^Wrides again
by nobody＠replay.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 97 12:57:17 -0800 > From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri(a)netcom.com> > To: Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> > Cc: cypherpunks(a)toad.com > Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way > > > what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over > <snip><snip><snip> > > timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing a troll

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It's time to move on, kids.
by Name Withheld by Request 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

As of 2/14/97 there are 1295 subscribers to the cypherpunks mailing list. 85 of those subscriptions are to other mail-exploders. Smoke 'em if you got 'em. -Golem

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Detweiler trolls^Wrides again
by Name Withheld by Request 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Fri, 14 Feb 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > Date: Fri, 14 Feb 97 12:57:17 -0800 > From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" <vznuri(a)netcom.com> > To: Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> > Cc: cypherpunks(a)toad.com > Subject: Re: Keep it Simple and the Cypherpunk Way > > > what TCM continues to stick his head in the sand over > <snip><snip><snip> > > timmy, cpunks, etc. you are getting a lesson in REALITY. you are seeing a troll

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"Trial"
by Timothy C. May 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 8:02 PM +0200 2/19/97, Shark wrote: >Trial OK, that makes 18 votes for "trial," 26 votes for "no trial," and 3 people asking what the hell the vote is all about. Looks like there won't be a trial and we can move directly to the punishment. --Klaus! von Future Prime -- [This Bible excerpt awaiting review under the U.S. Communications Decency Act of 1996] And then Lot said, "I have some mighty fine young virgin daughters. Why don't you boys just come on in and fuck them right here in my house - I'll just watch!"....Later, up in the mountains, the younger daughter said: "Dad's getting old. I say we should fuck him before he's too old to fuck." So the two daughters got him drunk and screwed him all that night. Sure enough, Dad got them pregnant, and had an incestuous bastard son....Onan really hated the idea of doing his brother's wife and getting her pregnant while his brother got all the credit, so he pulled out before he came....Remember, it's not a good idea to have sex with your sister, your brother, your parents, your pet dog, or the farm animals, unless of course God tells you to. [excerpts from the Old Testament, Modern Vernacular Translation, TCM, 1996]

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Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
by Timothy C. May 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 3:37 PM -0500 2/19/97, Robert Hettinga wrote: >We also have to thank Tim May for his um, ideological, presence on this >list from since before it existed, :-), and, or course, for his current >"leadership", both moral and political. (Of course, I can say all the next >few wierd and gushy things about him without fear of refutation on his >part, 'cause, in his wisdom, I'm still in his killfile ;-)) It was Tim who No, Bob, I actually took you out of my filter file (Eudora's killfile) a while back. It is true that I don't like your style, your writing style, that is. Some say I am overly sensitive to style issues...probably so. I find most modern cyber-journalism unreadable, with the hipper-than-thou "street cred" lingo and the obfuscatory purple prose. I find reading the straight-shooting words of even my ideological opponents (or opponents in some areas) far easier than reading the neo-journalistic hype some of my ideological fellow-travellers use. Nothing personal. >was our compass. It was Tim who came down from the mountain and stopped us >from worshiping the fatted calf of censorship, and who is now leading us >into the promised land of unfettered discourse, both on usenet and on the >new cypherpunk server network. Since Tim paper-trained most of us here >(myself included, though some may debate how well he succeeded :-)), that >is, how to behave on this list, and, most important, how to imagine what a >world of strong crytography on ubiquitous networks would look like, I now >find his "leading" us out onto the net, and away from Sinai, most >symmetrical indeed. :-). Well, I guess I have to say "Indeed." (Though I don't claim to be leading anyone, especially not off the list. After several weeks of saying nothing, I outlined my reasons for disliking the censorship move...reasons that had also been made by many other folks. Anyway, Adam Back's summary of events is pretty close to the mark.) The vision of where the world is headed, noted by Bob, has been clear to many of us for many years. When I first read about public key systems, circa 1977, I got an inkling. When I read Chaum's paper on untraceable digital cash, circa 1986, things got clearer. And when I evaluated the business plan of Phil Salin for his company, American Information Exchange, in 1987, everything fell into place. My role with him was to suggest how cryptographic protocols, including digital cash, would open up information markets. His company eventually got some funding, but failed. This company was several years too early, as it presaged many aspects of the Web (and, not coincidentally, its "sister company" was Xanadu, which even more clearly presaged the Web--indeed, Ted Nelson was the godfather of the Web. Anyway, by mid-1988, I wrote and distributed "the Crypto Anarchist Manifesto," which, to my surprise and satisfaction, basically anticipated all of the things now being done on Cypherpunks and elsewhere (anonymous remailers, message pools, steganography, BlackNet types of markets, ubiquitous crypto, etc.). The missing piece, digital cash, is a hard nut to crack...sure, it exists (Mark Twain Bank, DigiCash, etc.), but it's hard to get robust versions deployed and used. (Getting PGP integrated into mailers is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP support painless?) I agree with Bob and others that the Cypherpunks are in no danger of dying out. Things are just about to get a lot more interesting. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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security breached by NaughtyRobot
by eiwasaki＠gol.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

HELP! Can anyone tell me what this message is that I received in my mail today? Is it real? Should I do as it suggests? I have used the Internet once to purchase some books? Was my credit card number stolen in the process? How did this happen and how will it affect me? What should I do? PLEASE ADVISE ASAP! Thank you for your help Ellen Iwasaki Kumamoto, Japan > From: eiwasaki(a)gol.com > Date: Wed, 19 Feb 97 02:27 CST > Apparently-From: eiwasaki(a)gol.com > Apparently-To: eiwasaki(a)gol.com > Reply-to: eiwasaki(a)gol.com > Registered-mail-reply-requested-by: eiwasaki(a)gol.com > Sensitivity: PERSONAL-CONFIDENTIAL > Precedence: EMERGENCY > Priority: URGENT > Comment: Authenticated sender is <eiwasaki(a)gol.com> > Organization: NaughtyRobot > Subject: security breached by NaughtyRobot > > This message was sent to you by NaughtyRobot, an Internet spider that > crawls into your server through a tiny hole in the World Wide Web. > > NaughtyRobot exploits a security bug in HTTP and has visited your host > system to collect personal, private, and sensitive information. > > It has captured your Email and physical addresses, as well as your phone > and credit card numbers. To protect yourself against the misuse of this > information, do the following: > > 1. alert your server SysOp, > 2. contact your local police, > 3. disconnect your telephone, and > 4. report your credit cards as lost. > > Act at once. Remember: only YOU can prevent DATA fires. > > This has been a public service announcement from the makers of > NaughtyRobot -- CarJacking its way onto the Information SuperHighway. >

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FIPS 196
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

NIST announced in the Federal Register today "that the Secretary of Commerce has approved a new standard, which will be published as FIPS Publication 196, Entity Authentication Using Public Key Cryptography." http://jya.com/fips196.txt (12K)

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security breached by NaughtyRobot
by Ellen Iwasaki 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

HELP! Can anyone tell me what this message is that I received in my mail today? Is it real? Should I do as it suggests? I have used the Internet once to purchase some books? Was my credit card number stolen in the process? How did this happen and how will it affect me? What should I do? PLEASE ADVISE ASAP! Thank you for your help Ellen Iwasaki Kumamoto, Japan > From: eiwasaki(a)gol.com > Date: Wed, 19 Feb 97 02:27 CST > Apparently-From: eiwasaki(a)gol.com > Apparently-To: eiwasaki(a)gol.com > Reply-to: eiwasaki(a)gol.com > Registered-mail-reply-requested-by: eiwasaki(a)gol.com > Sensitivity: PERSONAL-CONFIDENTIAL > Precedence: EMERGENCY > Priority: URGENT > Comment: Authenticated sender is <eiwasaki(a)gol.com> > Organization: NaughtyRobot > Subject: security breached by NaughtyRobot > > This message was sent to you by NaughtyRobot, an Internet spider that > crawls into your server through a tiny hole in the World Wide Web. > > NaughtyRobot exploits a security bug in HTTP and has visited your host > system to collect personal, private, and sensitive information. > > It has captured your Email and physical addresses, as well as your phone > and credit card numbers. To protect yourself against the misuse of this > information, do the following: > > 1. alert your server SysOp, > 2. contact your local police, > 3. disconnect your telephone, and > 4. report your credit cards as lost. > > Act at once. Remember: only YOU can prevent DATA fires. > > This has been a public service announcement from the makers of > NaughtyRobot -- CarJacking its way onto the Information SuperHighway. >

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Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
by Hayashi_Tsuyoshi 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dear Mr. Robert Hettinga, This is Tsuyoshi Hayashi, one of subscribers of the cypherpunks list, lives in Yokohama, Japan. I heard today's your voice on the cypherpunks list. I am little sad. I am almost ROM, read-only member... Although I have been hear for two and a half (wow..) years, I posted only three (or four...) messages. I am a bad boy. Sorry. > all Instead of it, I have gotten many many cripto-concerned info (such as PGP) which are worth reading (though they are very difficult for me, both technical and language ;-). Today I know about cryptography a little. I am working nearby the cryptographic field in Japan. So I DO want to say THANKS to all subscribers of the list and the owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com, and the host machine named toad.com [140.174.2.1]. On Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:37:08 -0500, Robert Hettinga said: >Anyway, I've learned all these things from many cypherpunks, some still Yes, me too! >Because of this list's effect on my life, I have been motivated to start >the Digital Commerce Society of Boston, to evangelize financial [..] I found your DCSB list out about a month ago. This list is also interesting for me. Thanks. >Next week, I go to FC97 in Anguilla because of the things I've learned on [..] I did want to go to FC97, but there is a long distance between Anguilla and Japan... I hope you will post the summary and/or topics of FC97 to the DCSB. :-) >[..] cypherpunks is not going to >die just because the address "cypherpunks(a)toad.com" ceases to exist. There Yah! >So. In a very real sense, today on cypherpunks is like any other day in the >life of a creosote bush. It's a big desert, folks. We're the only ones who # Sorry. Although there are both "creosote" and "bush" in # my English-Japanese dictionary, I could not understand # the meaning of "creosote bush". Please teach me it in # other easy words if you have a time. In English is OK. # In Japanese is the best. ;-) ==== Mr. Bob Hettinga and all, doumo arigatou gozaimashita! # And sorry for my poor English. In a "Roman Holiday", Audrey Hepburn said, "By all means, Roman..." Today I say, "By all means, Cypherpunks..." Best, - Tsuyoshi Hayashi <take(a)barrier-free.co.jp> - PGP public key: http://www.barrier-free.co.jp/take/pgpkey - (CF 27 34 5B 46 FA 2A 12 D2 4C E3 F7 2A 45 E0 22) - Barrier Free, Inc. (established on 25 Jan 1996)

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Re: E-Gold: It had to happen
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Sender: e$(a)thumper.vmeng.com Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang(a)systemics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: Bulk Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:53:31 +0100 From: Ian Grigg <iang(a)systemics.com> To: Multiple recipients of <e$(a)thumper.vmeng.com> Subject: Re: E-Gold: It had to happen some dead guy called gold dot wrote: > Yo, c-punks: Yo, dude > In the back of the March 97 issue of Liberty Magazine is an ad > for a gold backed e-money system called e-gold(tm). It appears > to be an on-line transaction system for paying other e-gold > account holders in e-money backed with gold or other precious > metals. Nice one, perhaps you could scan in the ad, seeing as my issue doesn't arrive until ... March. Your system "appears to be" an accounting system stuck on top of SSL. But I guess we don't get to find out, for sure, unless we commit lots of bucks... > See http://www.e-gold.com/ for more info. Yeah, nice pages, lots of homework done here folks, but you forgot to mention: who are you? where are you? when are you? will you be? -- iang iang(a)systemics.com ---------- The e$ lists are brought to you by: Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ... Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info(a)hyperion.co.uk Like e$? Help pay for it! See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html> Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/> Thanks to the e$ e$lves: Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com> (Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com> Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com> Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com> --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

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Re: European crypto export policy
by Asgaard 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Ulf Moeller wrote: > I wonder if someone whose Swedish is better than mine could summarize > the article? It is at http://www.et.se/datateknik/arkiv/97-02/5.html After signing the Wassenaar Arrangement, Sweden has written it's own ITAR and there is a subdepartment of the UD, it's Foreign Office/State Department, the ISP (Inspection of Strategic Products), that handles export requests, if need be with the help of the FRA, it's NSA. A representative of the ISP says that only a handful of EU member states are completely cleared by the Wassenaar statutes to be at the importing end of strong crypto: England, France, Holland, Sweden and Germany. Most other EU states could fail because it would be to upgrade them concerning their cryptologic resources. An example is given: the coming Swedish ID smartcard (using DES and 512 bit RSA) would theoretically need a OK from the ISP before being carried over the border to Denmark. A crypto exporter (obviously hardware) complains about harassing bureaucrazy even if Germany is the recipient. So much about that short article. In addition to Goran Axelsson, Sweden's representative in the EU's IT security body whom Ulf is mentioning in his post, Swedish crypto-politics is handled by this guy's boss (at least formally) at the UD, Magnus Faxen. And then there is the FRA (Forsvarets Radioanstalt), a body as secretive as the NSA. They don't officially take part in the discussions at all. Asgaard

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Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
by Greg Broiles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 11:56 PM 2/19/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote: >It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times. One of their lead editor- >ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin >Chemerinsky, >writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde- >pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state >government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97). Either that's a load of >BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the >Times, which is usually bad enough. Hey, don't forget to shoot the messenger. Chemerinsky's statement is a concise summary of at least the last 70 years of double jeopardy jurisprudence. The only thing that's unusual about the use of the "dual sovereign" doctrine against the cops who beat King was that it's usually used against ordinary citizens, not cops. Do you suppose it's possible that some of the other evil conspiracies you see lurking behind every bush are also just reflections of your own fears and misunderstanding? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQEVAgUBMwwPvf37pMWUJFlhAQEdtwf+PXP4jgU9kLlJ4VmI0tp5SUu2A7+4SIu1 fUB6nVCnJFroRAh1ds7lDonW8tjQw19/iOYyg0e1O+8cX4VlC0FhPJjD1nGwReWg z9rFjYpZ0J23Q/fGZwCziz4QF1QZwwqVoiQM+eur7cAKVCTHOZI8v7LEwtJZAeiU TUYS5YR7Vn6lkJ1XZQJv6Cjo1ZWQmldSQ4vue4qAk3DyHoaahbqa8Wkjk1CBmdpk jDmk9Uy3ejwZ54CZz1AQrGM4Cvpc9/rMtUHUuQttN7OU/YSUBTWZivD+TJoVQPAJ iFVcVbRiF6dnzpi7dOYt7E/ZXox1NsH0rgJ8JZuU0s3nuwgtW6qimA== =khMb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles(a)netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. |

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Re: E-Gold: It had to happen
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Sender: e$(a)thumper.vmeng.com Reply-To: Ian Grigg <iang(a)systemics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: Bulk Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:53:31 +0100 From: Ian Grigg <iang(a)systemics.com> To: Multiple recipients of <e$(a)thumper.vmeng.com> Subject: Re: E-Gold: It had to happen some dead guy called gold dot wrote: > Yo, c-punks: Yo, dude > In the back of the March 97 issue of Liberty Magazine is an ad > for a gold backed e-money system called e-gold(tm). It appears > to be an on-line transaction system for paying other e-gold > account holders in e-money backed with gold or other precious > metals. Nice one, perhaps you could scan in the ad, seeing as my issue doesn't arrive until ... March. Your system "appears to be" an accounting system stuck on top of SSL. But I guess we don't get to find out, for sure, unless we commit lots of bucks... > See http://www.e-gold.com/ for more info. Yeah, nice pages, lots of homework done here folks, but you forgot to mention: who are you? where are you? when are you? will you be? -- iang iang(a)systemics.com ---------- The e$ lists are brought to you by: Intertrader Ltd - Commerce Solutions in the UK Visit <http://www.intertrader.com/> for details ... Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info(a)hyperion.co.uk Like e$? Help pay for it! See <http://www.shipwright.com/rah.html> Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, see <http://www.shipwright.com/rah/> Thanks to the e$ e$lves: Of Counsel: Vinnie Moscaritolo <mailto:vinnie@webstuff.apple.com> (Majordomo)^2: Rachel Willmer<mailto:rachel@intertrader.com> Commermeister: Anthony Templer <mailto:anthony@atanda.com> Interturge: Rodney Thayer <mailto:rodney@sabletech.com> --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

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Re: Cryptanalysis
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:21 AM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the >cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES. If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you >might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish. > >Vague explanations are OK. Dont want long drawn out explainations on >the implementation of an attack (source code, proofs, statistical >analysis and the like), just a short explaination of the attack. Cryptanalysis of DES is a 25-year ongoing academic exercise, with lots and lots of results. It's easy to attack it in 2**55 tries, because of symmetry, but that's a very large number :-) Differential cryptanalysis, discovered by Biham and Shamir, shows that the NSA probably did help the design process when working with IBM to turn IBM's 128-bit-key Lucifer system into DES, and certainly didn't weaken it. Linear cryptanalysis, discovered more recently, shaves some more bits off the strength if you have an extremely large amount of known plaintext. Brute-force attacks on DES (just try lots of keys until you win) used to be viewed as almost infeasible, but about 5-6 years ago there were a couple of designs for cracking machines that could do a 1-day crack for $30-50M, and then Wiener's design for a $1M, 3.5-hour cracking machine about 5 years ago. Gate arrays have gotten denser, faster, and cheaper since then, and if you want to crack a _lot_ of keys (e.g. you're the NSA) you can probably afford to burn ASICs to get even denser and faster. The slow part of the attack _had_ been key scheduling, but recent work by Peter Trei and others shows that you can do key scheduling very efficiently for the brute-force keysearch problem by picking keys in Gray Code order (since a one-bit change in key causes a simple change in key-schedule - it's totally useless for normal encryption/ decryption, but it's a big win for brute-force cracks.) There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and works better on bit-twiddliing chips. SKIPJACK is a totally different game - the NSA keeps the algorithm secret, and the only semi-outsiders who've seen it were a group of 5 people including Dorothy Denning and Dave Maher who were allowed to do a study when the NSA were trying to foist Clipper onto us. They concluded that SKIPJACK was reasonably strong (in their interim report), which gave them good propaganda points, and never did the "final report" that was supposed to address the entire Clipper chip (where most of the technical weaknesses were) and the key-handling charade around it. I don't remember if Matt Blaze's spoofing attack on the Clipper chip came before or after their interim report - the checksums were too short so you could impersonate another chip under reasonably wide conditions. According to the data sheets for the Mykotronx Clipper Chip, SKIPJACK is a Feistel-structured cypher with N rounds (I think it was 16 or 32.) 80 bits is enough that if anybody can discover the algorithm, it's too long to brute force today but starts looking pretty vulnerable in 10-20 years, and of course the Feds would have your keys today, so they can wiretap you, without needing legal authorization, and you can probably bribe a Fed faster than you can brute-force the chip. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)

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Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Attila T. Hun wrote: > on or about 970219:0722 Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> said: > +Simple, but.... In a right to jury trial of peers, are the peers the > +peers of the defendant or the peers of the victim? Both the Rodney > +King officers and the O.J. cases were perfect examples of how, when you > +switch the peer groups, you reverse the decisions. > you trying to be some kind of trouble maker? please remember that > *all* the fairweather dogooder liberals have been telling us for > years that everyone is equal. yeah, right! > therefore, juries are obviously color blind, and not dazzled by > attorneys calling up racism. yeah, right! It just makes me a little nervous to see jurors getting so personally involved that they come out of the box with a clenched fist as a (I suppose) victory salute. I didn't care to watch the charade in Santa Monica recently, but I doubt it was much better. > as to Powell, he is/was an animal who should have been put away > permanently. I watched most of the first trial live in '92, since I wasn't working that year. My impressions at the time went along with the presentation, which was fair to the officers. It was stated by Koon and one of the other officers as much as a year later, when many cities across the U.S. had been using the King video for training for several months to a year, "The LAPD has not to this date provided their officers with new tools and techniques to handle this kind of situation without a repeat of the same" (quote approximate). Of course, if you're willing to consider an alternative scenario, one which would appeal primarily to "conspiracy buffs" and the like, you might recall that L.A. was getting ready to put in a new freeway from the airport across the very line where the most fires were (6,000-plus fires, so extensive that the big jets couldn't fly over to LAX), and I think the outcome was to save them a lot of work, a windfall as it were. > Koon was an officer's officer (personal experience) and was in > the wrong place at the wrong time, not willing to step in. Koon lost > 24 years of service without a mark, his pension, and all his benefits > with 5 or 6 kids at home --and they had to go into hiding until > found by the liberal press again and again who obviously felt the > family should be punished as well. we wont even bother with the > issues of double jeopardy when they pull a federal civil rights > trial on all of them after the state court cleared everyone except > Powell who they hung on. they had a clear right to try Powell, > noone else. It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times. One of their lead editor- ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin Chemerinsky, writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde- pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97). Either that's a load of BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the Times, which is usually bad enough. BTW, the Times printed a large picture (first time I've ever seen) of the chairman, someone named Schlossberg, and I think it's spelled slightly different than the one who married Caroline Kennedy. Anyway, this guy could be Michael Eisner's twin brother. Two bozos if I ever saw 'em, goofy-looking dudes, which would explain much about their newspaper editorial policy. > and the video played for evidence missed the first 90 seconds when a > very large animal (Rodney King can be described no other way) came > out of the car, dancing the jig, and went after Powell. by the time > the prosecutors, particularly the Feds, were through itimidating the > witnesses, nobody told the truth. The suppression of evidence that worked in the police officers' 2nd trial has apparently become the precedent for a whole lot of trials. The feds are sweating hard on this OKC bombing thing - latest is that the initial witnesses seeing McVeigh here or there have admitted to contradictory descriptions they've given before. Note that there was some jury tampering (IMO, and others too) in the grand jury proceeding in OKC; also note the flimsy excuse for throwing out the grand jury in the Simpson case, since they weren't going to indict Simpson. I didn't even read close on the De La Beckwith case, where the feds finally nailed him after 20-plus years of trying, but maybe there's something on the internet.... > Rodney King had been busted for public intoxication, controlled > substances, and disorder enough times that he was well recognized > for what he was --and easily identified. Let anyone say whatever they want to about cops, but I'm glad it's not me out there facing 220-lb guys on dust. I heard first hand from one who shot a guy twice, and he just kept coming. If a .38 won't stop 'em, maybe that's where the big dogs come in handy. It would've been interesting if the King video had a minute or so with a couple of K-9's... > in the spooks, we called Powell's actions "the red mask" --once you > start staring the beast in the eye, you are so wired on there is no > stopping until your opponent is jello. 'shocktroops' or > 'Stossentruppen' should never be used in civilian police forces, > except possibily on SWAT teams, not an average street cop. When I went into the Army for combat training, I stood 5-10 and weighed 120 lbs. I weighed 130 when I came out. I guess I could have gone on patrol looking for Charlie, and maybe kept alive, if I didn't have to take on some well-fed crazies whose lives were turning to shit because of their enormous stupidity. In any case, I couldn't go out on the street in L.A. and face guys like King, so I lean toward the cops as much as I can. BTW (and speaking of stupidity), the Christopher Commission named 44 or 45 cops out of the LAPD's 8,000-plus as problem officers, and two(!) of the 45 went to the Simpson home the night/morning of the murders. > and why did we have the trial in the first place? simply because the > LA Times and KABC decided there was going to be a trial. I dont > know whether to chalk it off to their bleeding heart liberals, or > just the usual greed for money to be made on high profile news. > or is it just more of the usual politically correct beat down of > the oppressive whiteface? Big Money, Big Fame, Big Fortune. Look at Dan Rather, Robert McNeil, Bill Moyers, and others who profited handsomely from their on-the- scene experience in the JFK killing. Remember Netanyahu, who spent all those hours on the telly during the Gulf War, playing the role of the ultra-conservative Israeli leader who could step right in and take command in a crisis? Well, he did, and have you seen any recent pictures of him? Even when he's with Yessir Yurafart, he's beaming broadly, like the cat that just ate the canary. Big, big money. > it is sometimes difficult to defend the LA Police department when > you knew Daryll Gates and his predecessor, "Big Ed" Davis. Both of > them are cowboys; Big Ed is now a state senator from the far west > Valley, what was horse country when I lived there. they had a job > to do, and LA is a mean place. the city itself is 2/3 poverty, half > of that extreme ghetto and barrio problems. > Big Ed is the man who proposed the fitting ending to airline > hijackings, and set up his display in plain sight: in front of > the American Airlines terminal building 4 at LAX before LAX was > double decked. > Big Ed parked a 40 ft flat bed trailer out there with a judge's > bench at one end and a gallows at the other end with the jury box > and dock in between. yes, sir, justice by the hijackers' peers; > take the next 12 citizens coming out the doors. > perfect and swift justice on someone who has no defense for his > actions. [heh heh] The people of L.A. really liked Gates, because he kept the peace. And they liked (Uncle) Tom Bradley just as well, since he kept the city really clean. No trash on the streets, no dirt, all the beautiful shrubs lining the freeways well-watered - you ought to see Hollywood since they started putting in the "subway" under Mayor Riordan. Anyone with any sense of pride at all would be aghast at what's happened. Streets caving in, wooden planks covering big holes on lots of streets that you have to drive over, it's a mess. Even a lot of the old stars on the Walk of Fame were badly damaged. Riordan must be a Communist, or Mafia or something. Funny that when he ran for mayor, his huge billboards all over town had his name in big letters, and the next-to-last letter (a) was replaced with a large red star, looking exactly like the ones they used under Mao. [remainder snipped]

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Re: [CRYPTO] Dale Thorn Conspiracy Theory
by dlv＠bwalk.dm.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

(When I got back from WashDC, there were close to 300 new e-mails, and I'm still digging through the old ones.) Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> writes: > Toto wrote: > > Dale Thorn wrote: > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > > Take no offense, but why nobody thought about an obviously more likely > > > > conclusion: that it is Dr. Vulis who was, say, hired by Detweiler to > > > > destroy cypherpunks. I personally find the above unlikely, but at least > > > > more likely than all other suggestions (which I think are an example > > > > of the delusion of grandeur). Is LD on this mailing list? Someone should invite him. > OTOH, I had an instant crush on Zoe Baird. It broke my heart when > those heartless bastards in the Senate didn't confirm her. You just > can tell when a babe like that can't get in, that the politicians > love the money better than the women. Must be a bunch of homosexuals. I think Kimba Wood is a fine judge. > Fruit of the Loom was one of the first undie mfrs. to go offshore, > possibly Taiwan, possibly to the Reds subcontracting off the island. > You realize that Chiang Kai-Shek(sp?) was either the first or 2nd > richest man in the world during and after WWII? Running guns, drugs, > and boxer shorts for the CIA/FOTL company. Did you know that did wife was Russian? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: All Hail Emperor Lewis! (was: Re: status: shoppingplanet jan 20
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Toto wrote: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > These working examples also prove the other point I have found myself > > having to repeat... i.e. that anyone who posts to USENET news is trivially > > ``cullable'', and that E-mail spammers can have all of the E-mail addresses > > they could ever hope to use any day of the week. > Did you notice that when the 'censorship experiment' on the CypherPunks > list was abandoned, that Greg Broiles called for the list to be 'killed'? > Did you notice that when he was ignored, that he then changed his > postition to suggest that UseNet was the proper forum for continuing > the list? Life is too complicated, ya' know? I just wanna know who is this PATTI SHOCK <shock(a)nevada.edu> person, who's allegedly calling for a moderation of some forum on Usenet. The way I see it, if she's a real babe, somebody should fix her up with some censored material just to keep her happy. Then just let some really mean, dirty material through once a month or so, just so she knows the process is working, and protecting her from all sorts of hideous stuff. OTOH, if she's a Chelsea Clinton look-alike, why bother?

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Re: Cryptanalysis
by Peter Trei 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:16:46 -0800 > From: Bill Stewart <stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com> > To: Scott Auge <scotta(a)sauge.com> > Cc: cypherpunks(a)toad.com > Subject: Re: Cryptanalysis > At 11:21 AM 2/15/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Was wondering if anyone could help me with short explainations on the > >cryptanalysis of SKIPJACK and DES. If ya hit www.sauge.com/crypt you > >might get a better idea of what i'm trying to accomplish. > > Cryptanalysis of DES is a 25-year ongoing academic exercise, with > lots and lots of results. It's easy to attack it in 2**55 tries, > because of symmetry, but that's a very large number :-) Many people have made statements to the effect that the complement key property (if key K encrypts plaintext P to ciphertext C, then K' encrypts P' to C', where A' is the one's complement of A') of DES halves the work for a brute force attack, but these people don't seem to have ever tried to actually use this property - it's effectively useless. You still need to run the DES rounds, and the only win would be in the fact that preparing the key schedule of K' from the key schedule of K used to be easier than preparing it from K' directly. This is no longer a win, since preparing key schedule for (K+1) from the key schedule of K is just as easy. There's the possibility that I'm seriously dense (even Denning has made statements about halving the effort), but I just don't see it. [...] > The slow part of the attack _had_ been key scheduling, but recent work > by Peter Trei and others shows that you can do key scheduling very > efficiently for the brute-force keysearch problem by picking keys > in Gray Code order (since a one-bit change in key causes a simple > change in key-schedule - it's totally useless for normal encryption/ > decryption, but it's a big win for brute-force cracks.) It's not totally useless - if you're going to have to prepare a lot of different key schedules (say, for many session keys under IPSEC), it's still a win to OR together the key bit fanouts than to generate the key schedule by the traditional method. It trades a lot of upfront, one-time work for a later speedup. > There may be a distributed Internet crack using that approach, > though DES is still very inefficient on general-purpose computers and > works better on bit-twiddliing chips. There's one slowly shaping up, organized by the same people who did the RC5-48 crack. I'm still rooting for an uncoordinated search, which is already underway. Peter Trei trei(a)process.com PS: Is this the last message to cypherpunks actually about crypto?

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Re: All Hail Emperor Lewis! (was: Re: status: shoppingplanet jan 20
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Toto wrote: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > These working examples also prove the other point I have found myself > > having to repeat... i.e. that anyone who posts to USENET news is trivially > > ``cullable'', and that E-mail spammers can have all of the E-mail addresses > > they could ever hope to use any day of the week. > Did you notice that when the 'censorship experiment' on the CypherPunks > list was abandoned, that Greg Broiles called for the list to be 'killed'? > Did you notice that when he was ignored, that he then changed his > postition to suggest that UseNet was the proper forum for continuing > the list? Life is too complicated, ya' know? I just wanna know who is this PATTI SHOCK <shock(a)nevada.edu> person, who's allegedly calling for a moderation of some forum on Usenet. The way I see it, if she's a real babe, somebody should fix her up with some censored material just to keep her happy. Then just let some really mean, dirty material through once a month or so, just so she knows the process is working, and protecting her from all sorts of hideous stuff. OTOH, if she's a Chelsea Clinton look-alike, why bother?

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Re: [CRYPTO] Dale Thorn Conspiracy Theory
by Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

(When I got back from WashDC, there were close to 300 new e-mails, and I'm still digging through the old ones.) Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> writes: > Toto wrote: > > Dale Thorn wrote: > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > > Take no offense, but why nobody thought about an obviously more likely > > > > conclusion: that it is Dr. Vulis who was, say, hired by Detweiler to > > > > destroy cypherpunks. I personally find the above unlikely, but at least > > > > more likely than all other suggestions (which I think are an example > > > > of the delusion of grandeur). Is LD on this mailing list? Someone should invite him. > OTOH, I had an instant crush on Zoe Baird. It broke my heart when > those heartless bastards in the Senate didn't confirm her. You just > can tell when a babe like that can't get in, that the politicians > love the money better than the women. Must be a bunch of homosexuals. I think Kimba Wood is a fine judge. > Fruit of the Loom was one of the first undie mfrs. to go offshore, > possibly Taiwan, possibly to the Reds subcontracting off the island. > You realize that Chiang Kai-Shek(sp?) was either the first or 2nd > richest man in the world during and after WWII? Running guns, drugs, > and boxer shorts for the CIA/FOTL company. Did you know that did wife was Russian? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: "cypherpunks is dead..."
by Bryce 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym "Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net>" typed: > > (Getting PGP integrated into mailers > is stil bogged down, for reasons I have to believe have to do with > pressures from somewhere, else why would e-mail packages not make PGP > support painless?) Because PGP's user interface is yucky and its programmer interface is even worse. Amazing how people don't realize how much certain important things depend on such a (deceptively) simple concept as having a nice user interface and a nice programmer interface. In contradiction of certain cypherpunk urban legends, I suspect that such pedestrian details are far, far more important to the course of history than the clumsy and feckless machinations of government agencies. But for the good news, see the quote from Jim Bidzos in my ".plan". Regards, Zooko, Journeyman Interface Designer NOT speaking for any organizations or persons whose names might appear in the headers of this message, or who might occasionally toss me some spare change in return for my brilliant software design work. PGP sig follows -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2i Comment: Auto-signed under Unix with 'BAP' Easy-PGP v1.1b2 iQB1AwUBMwxxPkjbHy8sKZitAQFkwwL+Pmpv70F4mN+G58gnZj0a8nH6omppzucN CxMSw2iFc/rBcCQGoNO1Bx42TEShypN4HyBqrR49NEkJhihZ4dSfQB2FGsTZyFE0 P9X2/Oy10AwqC9nu90n/Ct5Z+63wFB6P =CCQx -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Constitution and a Right to Privacy
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Greg Broiles wrote: > At 11:56 PM 2/19/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote: > >It's good if you don't read the L.A. Times. One of their lead editor- > >ializers (whores), a professor at USC law school named Erwin Chemerinsky, > >writes in relation to this subject "The federal government is an inde- > >pendent sovereign that cannot have its powers diminished by a state > >government's actions." (exact quote, 2/7/97). Either that's a load of > >BS doubletalk, or it's one of the more fascistic commentaries from the > >Times, which is usually bad enough. > Hey, don't forget to shoot the messenger. Chemerinsky's statement is a > concise summary of at least the last 70 years of double jeopardy > jurisprudence. The only thing that's unusual about the use of the "dual > sovereign" doctrine against the cops who beat King was that it's usually > used against ordinary citizens, not cops. Do you suppose it's possible > that some of the other evil conspiracies you see lurking behind every > bush are also just reflections of your own fears and misunderstanding? My background is not so much in conspiracy as it is in rational problem solving. Conspiracy is yet another model/filter with which to evaluate events, sometimes useful unless a person automatically rejects all of that and subscribes to the Elmer Fudd view of history. I understood clearly the (supposed) intent of the feds in retrying the Whites in the South who were beating up on Blacks and getting off with White juries - I just believe they would have served the people better by declaring mistrials or something instead of using the "dual sovereignty" BS, since a study of the Constitution and its preparatory papers shows the fathers clearly would have balked at this. One or more of the top feds also commented on the possibility of retrying Simpson in another criminal case, saying it was not possible under current law since it didn't have the same aspects as the Rodney King cops trials. However, that doesn't take anything away from the fact of a "democracy" run amok, in the hands of bozos like Michael Eisner and what's-his-schmuck at the L.A. Times, who are constantly beating the drums for revenge, so that the people will find "some way, somehow" to lynch people like Simpson, to "make him pay" for what he "so obviously" did to his victims.

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