December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

96rock (96.1)--"The Home of Capital Punishment"
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

_The Atlanta Journal-Constitution_ 6/20/97 "Contest Controversy: Radio Promotion Is Called Tasteless" Miriam Longino, Staff Writer Atlanta radio station 96rock is making waves with a contest that asks listeners to predict the year, month, day and time when convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh will be executed. The winner gets a free trip to cover the event. Rock Station WKLS-FM (96.1)--calling itself "The Home of Capital Punishment"--is running a 45-second spot 12 times a day to pitch the contest. [snip] ...96rock promotions director, Pat Ervin, ...says he feels the station is "playing on the sentiment of the majority of the public." "We saw an opportunity," he says. "It's obvious that people are very passionate about this thing. So we decided to use a creative mechanism to tap into that." [More follows]

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No Subject
by Fuck Jesus 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In celebration of the DES Challenge success, I am sending out copies of a 1983 Time-Life picture of a naked boy and girl playing in a risque position that indicates the boy could have his penis inserted in the girl's rear. In celebration of the crack of weak financial cryptography that leaves businesses vulnerable because of the U.S.'s ignorant and fascist crypto policy, I am encrypting the file using a 4096-bit key produced with an encryption package I downloaded off of a European ftp site. So, while some thief is using a computer to steal your life savings, I will be sitting back drinking champagne and enjoying pictures of naked children that Time-Life profited from by selling them to middle class Americans in the 80's. I am sorry that I feel the need to encrypt the picture with strong cryptography acquired from a foreign source, but I am just a normal citizen and not a major corporation, so I would go to jail for sharing this with you even though I am not profiting from it as they did. -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 MessageID: x+sKjpaOsVgSNXEtf9IIyu8BCbLD5Hof qANQR1DBw04Dbz9N1j3WOD8QEACNw87oSavhuIxVZVX/9dhwrMBoAtaWaDStOQuA sp2qprt1LPQCIqlXs8tgvEvR+fNtL1aZkrYPYbC57AMVXCyYyPxVF6pPlJIlYNI8 tdOjSRFDlns7kD4xC3nNESBkHwH3GW1s9/wD8R7AO7yarnMu1YnaQgUJDjWIVaes qnaeSfEEtG3XMHpdQ6dyNg3OR5lYxDBuwPntVlFXUS7RtqjVS69glngFRb3aBCqZ NCmjAnnPLAnfAv464kcFHESbzXLtkF3+1ApBoNPgiF7W2G66MP5WkV7XO1BIM3eb wBFKW/H1deWzXNQgZxeyKQo0cmWDwitPYiztTmepL2Cjoc4pR/6CsqnFdBTuEN8P RmDIsGXWpQv4i7lMOs4P12YGGkhm3q0utpSikmlHnoJGDMe2nkAbkUMeJDnP1Hj+ qmuoqKgdAM9I6//aMfVeFR6zKe6VvfFI3kO07nzS/X9DC3/GnyhSco38US1033q0 FRRR6p/uwl/zF7H6c7Z12uMsiUgsobd+d0dy2z8GdDBKOIManPmNtLbgx85VhMyJ 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Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Declan McCullagh: > From: "Shabbir J. Safdar" <shabbir(a)vtw.org> > Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto B ill > > A little more of polisci 101: > > These 8 members of Congress didn't just vote in our favor here, they've > placed crypto on an agenda at a higher level than something else they > wanted to get through the committee. Imagine being Sen. Burns, and knowing > that you have just placed your own agenda at risk in order to stand up for > crypto, knowing there's a non-neglible chance you might lose. > > By sheer definition, you've placed crypto on your agenda higher than > something else. Not only am I really damn happy to see this, but very > happy to know that 8 senators think so little of the key recovery that > they'd jeapordize their own agendas for it. > > We owe them a great big debt of thanks, not the derision that goes with > Alice in Wonderland political punditry. Imagine! Shabbir's obvious amazement that a senator would put support of our Constitutional rights above his own "agenda" is very telling. Like most of those senators, he's been in Washington too long. It seems not to occur to those in D.C. that the very idea of congress deigning to tell us how we can communicate with each other is utterly offensive.

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No Subject
by FuckClinton 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I have sent along a nice picture of a naked family that comes from a nudist magazine. Unfortunately, one of the family members is a young child. Since, if viewed by a person who is not capable of controlling their carnal sexual impulses (President Clinton, for example), it might be considered to be a vile, filthy example of child pornography instead of a pleasant portrait of a family comfortable with their nudity, I have encrypted it with 3072-bit strong encryption with a program obtained from a source outside of the United States. If it were not for the distinct possibility of the photograph giving President Clinton and Newt Gingrich a hard-on then I might feel more comfortable using weaker, 'government approved for export' encryption such as is used to safeguard billions of dollars in the financial community. -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 MessageID: u+p2B/cfqZ0JMdmSRc//whEVIF2tfI0C qANQR1DBwk4DuKtkWJ+QAh4QDAC5M3+oOk3ys/I+hCcHiqEuc23mX01TbAla8qgx wP+xlpUpIbLLMvyX+oDaCoyOFmVNUfk1PiCSR+g4gH+HFzXG/XUS7RJrU2g6FLln /Twfmdf6Cqqsj3K5QX1PXwm8Pl21E47VUYdBoiR/ZO8+7kJYBUqUuiBFVNjI+FzQ 43O/8jGQ4codp9BrfFRNNbMWkUSxMRJzkbyrHIKh4grd0HLwIDvf9vLzEJVHxRER vZK+87Z8RMNensUQCQSStqmTwKkt0nXm417vMuSSvGm/02OP6gIoTjGNALzzjwoi neR6xAHpnV6N99WzbjE04Gi3hGumEv15BOb/65O4xsO6ANMvRScJULZkUjV9HGDd viCw96/LoHppLPyNWfG0rc+BdD+kwIdD2jZd6Gb25BZMMFfJ7g1SrMKcT0T1SZKw uIuiTHIqFpnA78gdy+7WTBWnvOWCCNlhg7sV6O3JV90Q6gJJ/34TgAc0wahRXwXH Gwx4xoeWcM8s3vNNY4cIxCyfa/cMALtOuFI+++yY11Lpy0Y8CCub3zUF/1CT1/JD ksDMSFZWXyQbS9P0eb2a5qfAG6T5YyyzIVutnuQ+jnYOz+St7qCxkxZRE//PbNue sUwemrTWHv1p5jqEHKSZskGSu5ZBj1cJn9MTGVdRFxOTK8blvyXazgwXbkHBmOFn Jmeeo7ckWrm0RBTAW241qABmfKFFooSkBEfTrmNfGjJzkPe5vt4/3YNyAmte6+MH VmAsa/fXH4ouM9m4apmz2u5Z8gE6bc1isQNz6uwlLimQtrkG2W3RBS/51zar3iR/ 94J55+MdpNnWTj7jsRIXCDw4oIotfRk6/S4LhpfbNBEJSX+uu+KfaLSGCs3/fZVd rZaq09OSiW0UP1G5BGVnPmh02lk+d7jpWvZvYsgBuTTrvT30qIel+nce1cmjvxfI hujRuVF4RDH3hEWbC0s0KNNUAQcj92ypk8DR3hIOozikOvxqn5wesIB/b13za5hE 7xQdaCayag7G68IKzGOKvyM1wGIBFsnsS+Lp4Tg7RGrFK05eQTmvmEngcBWFUEez 6WQIUv2HC31I96RbNBeDD/KMOCHeNAkun/G6iw7dRURoziSiFBWWP1xZZne7+Nu8 1zz7PBB9f51AYWZRP2zaNErKT0fP5eN36CVX/jjL3Yu0sigakerjyj6dvoKzx1Z+ AA2WvROxdzn7asUw4s7Rin3Iz7LU/po8ebfTlmDIukzwrEAG65VkCHwiWN0SCt8L uYQJ8LiIaeY8FRjJejqxSPwjBtKBa3owBlUk1WcXbr13tAYo7175Rxa13QvHPnax JwQ3U56nD12rymBMGKByGztRoFOyddb6mRpUzq+tntKo2zRxsGcXySd2EGwvyz/5 nMUhTijPynXcK/g3+FnyOJt7uUCkaqGTDsqEMtQJUX5iIFpIKUIyi3rcoA3Zw1sd aT+sCJuSwz3AkNepHXJarc6cXEdxLduim4jeChZNCg22Db/bBHvl1ZovljGljwha UoNO+4KiDJAAfR0OYh0Ul51x6GwhF4QCc8W+65G/MQP2GI0sVUvfxXXAgeILAzD3 jVPAbYV35j8m1qNBGSrnB6OdX1iUtmT1fGB90CaT1cf4f5vKseqjxpoBpKeyLgmD DjQdho9v/8YxyYIcraTa/1lsR14wdCFTQx4G7/emKdKzV0jmZmZ3OOh+Uzg4xVuo FfvEyQMG7JFIBM4R8oDT373qe++EKo2fUfBPU/Or6/u0V33mpwqjJrFUWOy6WFai ZPtMkIcx8ri5ubNcjCx3NYu4YjlbTInW0hK/3slOYZm5xCuwUq//XCiuUXpS3AP1 SwJdiZaLKZHXQcj5R0QrSHw5X+oV3+trJvB/MjYZ2XNbw3B8PITOoIETlQ3MCeR2 zoLZhOiw05KZOiEx5BOLLybwY/YjY5Uq5Qe+O7UeEAehl5SeYK95nADWkiC7Pblc umchOenWRKHQXo1wWwR5ri8yVjtg2JTszlYZJHvg4QpUz1N36DHjrmmGw/MeXZ9J dPS0RLoJops5x+skI78poqX9ZBhwTn2LZvpDikNXnBE5blwrDfX0WDyOrjZHb2vG dJHAbcCmtfZKY6UWtddN70Ma8gbHH30jmAO3HL/BLVUM3P46hDvHRkmZ34lnoNIq +JqhMlIYrQ1YzftNDAUvBLBI3LXtTkYsqtLdZbRxolfkxBMVmpyJpR7aljYNqrvE SM0Ub8+ddszKQbycnpi6p0yVEo9HFFU9t9ErriCMNmK9FccCHElZ4gDuVUXF0bIQ mXABJNGputjd9+Oe+7r1vIr1bRjq6T/jzqepOns35A17zFECF1KvxU3IdjKUx1x7 QjWe5w/XCCBSdAw2gqQB3GIDtaRbRDvt3z9yhkoI0+EsWJod5SgR5bklj08IMph+ z232qCOqeeixcjD253tCemuxXReSOM8f52elZWf5CwZCEKxWjhxGu/CAQSffwmux yxMqeJqxK76y0jv9tC1OVaEhWVYNzzPkJiimP1JACT1XtHTUO3r5kDNbc+qKgPYI fmRUwDo9G+ppXltx0SVKM1TWoOnEdKRHnR8T/FjeqeitJ8bil1wYwyIgc8E37QBF t6gH3+R5Kf1hml2JGXELRYGyiV+TuSuRGsdoIJWrpkPCEcHX5VsqhWOyEAEI0u5v PLR9/YIP5ntQiyq6/bywIw8K4Dkrx0aGv0A3bpWnja5EgBkXzbGpeKvD+Mu9RGDP BikdtkRqqBi0Jj3BClcXhxN+/ZgsEMHHlwtuDzIaoop27zWyLc3XofHT85vzv8UL pt/WHoDmRvs5aIc7fg7e94S2NyLmLmLWaY4JJVBEmSRkVh3x0/dPPD1GrK7nzb6I ny5deZaCQYlHVsNXSvNemZidJBBAq6eWfScsenDigQ1JaOzBnwYZSuofXGYX/qLa zgutJ4lrJgjuj6E4AYQb3oGYD3EGHZWajJmlBbPKfxjHO2hmjvtJyGA9LhTpORuu AXuqiqDjQGID9h/zCzZKIH00GkviGHst/pPxP7xh6Dk9+Exy+abk1rTZnlln/QJh /5YypCC8kUz5ApVwyDtz4OUlnk2qvOxioVQOJ55geW+qAbrQTYHrR+f7wkhf39ev kVjQVwABPhZIYNLtgaDuXGBwpQw0PgNQB1cF1ImMWx+UfFBjg2NPzI6+0u3cItLr 7gYOlTRJmjJGNdeRv6TkvzvBmCVAtO+ZCJyrz1ATzchhpu4H6Nz0N8Vw8WkMjm/U AKOiJqB/D5EcxLzArSZ8RHL1TqCxxumw26cBjvbzwKvqRBDvvyP4eV/8Pydf+Qy6 Un9PeuD5wU2wzwgkkKlf4huc2z5p6ad3sUysj0/QyNjEGUWEvTakL9D+ktY+hAS+ 6PigU8wVu2c/AZK4vfgn0PSAZjpeie9kL7qz9fmmHuFk3j3jC8z3R5ThWnRiwzwM riOWc2cRPQk0Os18c3ldh02eBST0Vg1/asTEr2ONA7AT1Y1okHl/oRR2JCHDfj0M lMsLVCC7oRcNCtJIYvd89GIq6HPHOblEBgPNasutXvAJWmNnKrQJvojp83ICaKXP 9Wh5jEgbHCFaRkE/aYkdyYvmphKCiW6rL8dhN21flGITCPIOE4j+8jy1rtAtRvSS xx+g/phNraQf9dC0yZyClBAgbMDLdmNOxp+VMtlPU2PfDT2Tm6DVfcjkS4tbXyqN aiDXI4lJgFQ5XkeC9RNAeDmZ/yct36QASd9tSuAbcoKwmSPJ47+IHbPbqXMo8+8K YI14UkRpZ3T4/l913w4INE48+WwIJmEL9+Welfhb2t2E/8JFMD6C1JQDl4r25FJx Pf72wTTKbW783bNyxC3lkJ8uKrsiG/vqNC38KsvnUFB90KZ8iHbdAZMR9Yhzgoch /bfLKvcwIDORGzllhzhxbhPWNXtbdndKrhixAJ+s4Z3/WhuIfUQG+RgQl2rMMTNS ezm2nClt34EX+an9BX9V2bu4fhxrCB1Zp9S0ie/+dgjdj3j33RRPZoE5BK40j04a WJzLjmkWQeS5IXxqyDUhWBZyJyAZhfUzmUIV7GgEAbUFj0n0edIF2X+W9Zsgd1Tg foTH5TGbxInLDB2r5dmbz5UMIrGLFE1Y3RQjV8OHhINGi2N7prunOMAl4Tk2UAad sHbMGuix5QxjDkPfcNb88jHIcM6x4mhXdBLQO1NxVCejnYRxK08/Uk49nQCBrIU/ d4VqnIMaTTzt/Ewy2tkpEUd4aCsEXM/DTTmymVKHtsM10w8JNpnaS+5nnPyS5i5S bXEWDl7kiW+ExWh/3hPBOiMWSjAglmBdvMDshdww8g1b7gJhsRvBvHSCbLk= =12UE -----END PGP MESSAGE-----

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Newsletter
by actn＠artnet.com.br 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Please don't hit reply, send all inquiries to a7(a)mary-world.com http://www.mary-world.com/ans Are you interested in receiving our monthly free newsletter on the latest Computer technologies and the internet. Please send an email requesting to be added to our database, or check our web site for the latest news. If you have signed up already, please disregard this request. Download our catalog from our Internet Website http://www.mary-world.com/ans HARDWARE TRENDS BREAKING SPEED LIMITS Early benchmark tests on a prototype 300-MHz system are promising This fall will mark the arrival of a class of machines based on Intel's 300-MHz Pentium II processors, and early benchmark tests on some of the prototypes show healthy-- if not astounding-- performance gains over previous-generation Pentium systems. At NEC's invitation, PC Magazine had the chance to run tests on the company's new 300-MHz PowerMate Professional, due to ship in September. Although the configuration we tested was preliminary, the machine posted some impressive numbers. On the ZD High-End Winstone 97 test, the PowerMate earned a score of 34.8. This test runs a set of applications that heavily exercise the CPU and graphics subsystem, but purely CPU-intensive tests were really where the machine did well. On our CPUMark32 test, it posted a score of 735; on CPUMark 16, the system earned a speedy score of 556. To put these results in perspective, note that our recent test of the 266-MHz Dell Dimension XPS H266, resulted in a CPUMark32 score of 719, as opposed to the NEC system's 735, and the Dimension was the fastest by a wide margin in a group of systems based on Intel's 266-MHz Pentium II processor. The Dimension did, however, post a slightly higher score on High-End Winstone 97 than the PowerMate--36 rather than 34.8-- thanks to its advanced graphics subsystem. Most of the other 266-MHz system in our roundup posted speed scores well behind the PowerMates. Again, the configuration is still preliminary. More Adrenaline This Fall In the fall, Intel plans to ship its 440LX chip set, which supports Accelerated Graphics Port (AGP) technology and will work with a new dedicated bus for graphics. The speeds posted by 300-MHz machines-- especially on graphics tasks--are likely to benefit greatly from these technologies, as bus bottlenecks currently undermine high-speed processors. Although tests show 300-MHz system to be marginally faster than 266-MHz Pentium units, the new chip set should provide a healthy shot of adrenaline. Many customers will want to time their purchases of 300-MHz machines to correspond with the chip set's arrival, but NEC's $4000 PowerMate is likely to ship in advance of the chip set. Also note that Intel has been speeding up price drops on its high-end chips in recent years, and 300-MHz systems should be substantially cheaper than $4000 by 1998. They promise to be an important step for Intel as it faces increased competition in high-end chips from AMD and Cyrix. ***************** MEMORY************************** HIGHEST QUALITY. LIFETIME WARRANTY Call for any type ofMemory not listed.Memory for Laptops and Desktops, All AppleMAC or any POWERBOOKS. EDO/ or fast page Simms 72pin Memory 2k, 60ns 8MB $35 16MB $65 32MB $119 168pin Dimms, 60ns 16MB DIMM $75 32MB DIMM $135 64MB DIMM $265 *************** COMPUTERS *************** Pentium 200MMX 16/3GB 20xCD, 15" Color Monitor, 33.6 Fax/Modem $1499/$54mo. Compaq Laptop, P120, 16/1GB, 10.4 Active Mtx, 8xCD ROM $1645 Compaq Laptop Presario P150MMx, 16/2GB, 10xCD, fax/mod $2495 Toshiba Tecra Laptop 730CDT, P150Mhz, 16/2GBCD TFT $3995 Apple Powerbook 1400/cs 16/750CD/Color/FM $1795 Apple 9600/233, 32/4GB 12xCD, $3399 Apple 8500/120Mhz 16/1GB CD $1695 Apple 6200/75Mhz, 14" Monitor,8/1GB, CD, 14.4 Fax/Mod $799 1- WE CAN E-MAIL YOU A COMPLETE CATALOG. 2- WHOLESALE PRICES ON PENTIUM LAPTOPS & DESKTOP. APPLE POWER MACS, MEMORY AND ACCESSORIES. 3- REPAIR ANY TYPE OF CPU, MONITOR, DRIVE,PRINTER FREE PICK UP & DELIVER FOR LOCALS, BEST RATES. 4- WE SHIP WORLDWIDE, OVER 11 YEARS EXPERIENCE SINCE 1985 CALL FOR OTHER CONFIGURATIONS- We carry Full line of Toshiba, Texas instruments, IBM, Radius, Daystar, Umax,Seagate, Quantum Samsung, or many other computer Printers,Scanners, Monitors, Modems Software, and peripherals.We accept Visa, MasterCard, Discover, American Express,Diners,Cash, Cashier's Checks, Money Orders, COD. Active Network Solutions Inc. , 1611 Crenshaw Blvd #224, Torrance CA 9501 U.S.A Tel. (310)764-4357 Please send all inquiries to: a7(a)mary-world.com Internet Website http://www.mary-world.com/ans IF YOU LIKE TO BE REMOVED PLEASE SEND AN EMAIL AND WRITE (REMOVE) IN SUBJECT AREA. 10

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Encryption Test
by FearMonger 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I have attached a file that contains the sysadmin password for the main computer at Visa's head office. In order to prevent the information being abused, I have encrypted it with Pkzip so as not to have to fear running afoul of vague and indeterminate crypto legislation. I am doing this in the hope that by showing my willingness to support the government promotion of weak encryption I will thus be trusted with even more highly sensitive information in the future. I also used a short and easily-guessed password to show my support for government access to keys in the hope that it will lead to wider recognition of my value as a team player in government projects. If I am ever in a position to be hired for a job that involves access to the secret codes for launching nuclear missles, I hope that I can count on letters of reference from cypherpunks list members declaring my suitability for working in an area that requires one to show proper fear of and submission to authority. FearMonger

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Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh(a)efga.org> >To: action(a)efga.org >Subject: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! > >EFGA was granted a preliminary injunction in our court case >against the state of Georgia. Details and press release to follow. Yee-hah! If you ignore CONgress, we've had a good week, between this court and the New York CDA courts doing the right thing and the DES crack finishing. >Let's meet somewhere tonight to celebrate! Obviously y'all should meet in the Atlanta Underground, wearing masks :-) (though I won't be there, since it's a bit far from the West Coast...) # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)

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Mail server down :(
by William H. Geiger III 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hi, My ISP is in the process of switching backbone providers and as a consenquence all my mail is bouncing. This more than likely will not be fixed until Monday. Thanks, - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBM6q7SY9Co1n+aLhhAQFWNwP+Mg19u/wKUBH/CkO2VimaIurS8AI5GR7J G7EU4dysnq3+yx5BU6vtGpkMVNLRjv8t5Q5BuT1jMfkXn5NKdt1XbUQATVsQz1X0 N3p1ojP+4DXekn4DO02N3s/5hxHT/jYX5k9EPUSgpwbp8KzG2y9DttVhz+pUeXZC O0kOCo6XJyg= =OD5S -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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It's not over
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Let's cut all the doom and gloom here. The bill isn't passed yet. It's got to go through at least one and possibly two more committees before it reaches the senate floor, where we'll have another chance to defeat it. Even then the house has to pass similar legislation. That will be yet another chance. When Clipper was proposed, a wave of anger and opposition swept forth. The same thing needs to happen now. This fatalism is self defeating. Either you're part of the solution or you're part of the problem. People who say there's no use fighting, who give up, who oppose the efforts of the crypto lobbying groups in the name of ideological purity, are not part of the solution. They have no right to complain if this law passes. By sitting aside and carping at the efforts of those who are trying to stop this kind of legislation, they are only helping to bring it about. There is no reason this new bill should be any more acceptable or more successful than Clipper was. We only have to fight it.

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Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh(a)efga.org> > Subject: Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd) > Reasonable men adapt to match the world around them. Unreasonable men try to > adapt the world to themselves. Therefore, only unreasonable men bring about > change in the world. I may be unreasonable, but I'm not pathetic. This is an interesting insight into the underpinnings of a democracy or republic. The secret to success and ultimate limitation of government authority is people standing up and saying "Hell NO!, I won't take it any more." In short, for democracy (any democracy I suspect) to work it REQUIRES people being unwilling to compromise. So many people labor under the impression that compromise is how they get to where they want to be. Very successful indoctrination I suspect... ____________________________________________________________________ | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http:// www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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New Laws in Oregon - "Land of the Legal betatest"
by Alan 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I sometimes think that Oregon is being used as a beta test for some of the more draconian laws due for the rest of the country. An example is the new law waiting to be signed by the Govenor. It would expand the reasons a cop can use to detain and search you. Currently they need to have probable cause that you committed a crime. The new law expands that to probible cause that you are about to commit a crime and a whole host of things they can detain and question you on. (The TV coverage has been less than good. The TV anchor they had covering it was pushing it as a good idea. Only until later did they bring up any reasons of protest.) Yet another tool to keep the masses down. alano(a)teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."

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Feinstein Amendment Text
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Senator Feinstein's office has provided a copy of her S.936 amendment which passed yersterday 94 to 0 "to prohibit the distribution of certain information relating to explosives, destructive devices, and weapons of mass destruction." http://jya.com/fein-sp419.htm (5K) Via links in the file, the amendment may be compared to earlier draft versions and debate as well as for the effect of the recent Justice Department report on its language.

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[Noise] Random thought...
by Alan 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

With all of the "punish the evildoers amongst us" and the "Improving Security by making it illegal" raving in congress, this came to mind... "The Congressional Definition of the Strength of a Firewall is how many times you can march the citizenry in front of it for summary execution before it crumbles." You may now go back to the regularly scheduled panic. alano(a)teleport.com | "Those who are without history are doomed to retype it."

2 2

Garbled in transmission.
by ET 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I caught the Headline News mention of the DES crack and it unfortunately put the wrong spin on things. I can't remember it word for word, but it went like this: "If you're going to decrypt financial transactions you'd better be prepared to get 1000 computers and spend 3 months on the project." The report was delivered with a hint of a smile, as if to suggest that the time and resources might have been better spent. *Sigh*

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PGP Crack Challenge Announced
by C.J. Parker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Pearl Harbor Computers has announced the "PGP Crack Challenge" with a prize of $10,000.00 for the first person to decrypt a PGP cyphertext file which reveals the location of the Jews being hidden by anarchistic CypherPunks. Despite the best efforts of the U.S. legislative bodies and secret government comittees, the danger remains that outlaw cryptographers will be able to illegally avoid future Government Access to Keys legislation and prevent law enforcement agencies from being able to read their communications through use of strong, non-GAKed crypto. Imagine the burden that would have resulted if strong crypto had prevented the German Gestapo from accessing information needed to meet the legitimate needs of law enforcement during World War II. Pearl Harbor Computers will post a file called "hidejews.asc" to the CypherPunks list in the near future. It will use 2048 bit PGP 5.0 encryption signed with Pearl Harbor Computers secret key. In order to win, whoever decrypts the message must post their results to the cypherpunks list, signed with their secret key. The $10,000.00 prize will be paid in the equivalent of removed gold tooth-fillings held in escrow in safety deposit boxes in a secure Swiss bank. C.J. Parker, President, Pearl Harbor Computers "We've been bombed since 1941"

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Mykotronx builds Fortezza/DES card
by John Gilmore 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This is great -- they've put TWO insecure crypto algorithms on one PCMCIA card! Mykotronx leads the industry, as usual! John :-) Rainbow subsidiary Mykotronx and Western Datacom announce joint development of industry's first dual-mode cryptographic modem -- FORDESZA Business Wire - June 17, 1997 09:03 MYKOTRONX WESTERN-DATACOM RNBO %CALIFORNIA %DISTRICT %OF %COLUMBIA %INTERACTIVE %MULTIMEDIA %INTERNET %COMED %COMPUTERS %ELECTRONICS %PRODUCT %TRADESHOW V%BW P%BW TORRANCE, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 17, 1997--Mykotronx Inc., a subsidiary of Rainbow Technologies Inc. (NASDAQ:RNBO), and Western Datacom have announced joint development of FORDESZA, a Type II PCMCIA PC modem card that provides both DES and FORTEZZA-based encryption and decryption in a single unit. FORDESZA, the first dual-mode cryptographic device designed for the commercial marketplace, integrates a FORTEZZA cryptographic chip manufactured by Mykotronx with 56-bit DES encryption. ``Mykotronx' collaboration with Western Datacom further demonstrates the company's commitment to providing the highest-quality cryptographic solutions for secure data communications,'' said John Droge, vice president of product development for Mykotronx. ``The first of its kind, FORDESZA is a state-of-the-art modem design that delivers both high connection speed and quality cryptographic protection.'' ``Western Datacom is pleased to be working with Mykotronx on the development of FORDESZA,'' said Phil Ardire, president of Western Datacom. ``Western Datacom and Mykotronx have combined their respective expertise to create a breakthrough cryptographic security product to support users' need for secure communication.'' Functioning as a V.34 bis 33,600 bps modem, FORDESZA operates as a FORTEZZA Crypto Card, a FORTEZZA encryptor/decryptor with a V.34 bis modem and as a DES encryptor/decryptor with a V.34 bis modem. FORDESZA will incorporate all security features previously developed for FORTEZZA, including personal identification numbers (PINs) for user authentication; the digital signature standard (DSS) for originator authentication; the key exchange algorithm (KEA) for Diffie-Hellman variant public key exchange; FORTEZZA and DES encryption; and the secure hash algorithm (SHA) for data integrity. FORDESZA accomplishes key management via both a certification authority workstation (CAW) and a FIPS 171-compliant software system. The CAW operates FORTEZZA card initialization software to program the modem with the user's distinguished name (DN) and public key information stored in X.509 certificates. A distributed database, called the directory system agent (DSA), handles the storage and distribution of these keys. For DES key management, the FIPS 171 software, which is compatible with existing Western Datacom DES-based products, accommodates private key changes and management of DES encryptors. FORTEZZA encryption has been accepted by the Department of Commerce's key recovery program. Encryption keys can now be kept by an approved third party, with copies available to law-enforcement agencies only under a court order. For more information about FORDESZA, contact Mykotronx at 310/533-8100 (fax 310/533-0527) or Western Datacom at 216/835-1510 (e-mail: wdc(a)western-data.com) With headquarters in Torrance, Mykotronx is a world leader in providing high-grade encryption and decryption equipment essential for use in space and other sensitive digital communication environments. Founded in 1979, and acquired by Rainbow Technologies in 1995, Mykotronx has more National Security Agency approved products than any other corporation. Demonstrating the company's commitment to quality, Mykotronx designs and manufactures products that meet the requirements of MIL-Q-9858 A (``Quality Program Requirements'') and MIL-I-45208 (``Inspection System Requirements''). Rainbow Technologies, with 1996 revenues in excess of $81 million, is a leading supplier of software-protection, license-management and Internet-security products worldwide. Rainbow has offices in the United States, France, Germany, Russia and the United Kingdom, and is ISO-9002 certified. CONTACT: Rainbow Technologies Inc. Ann Jones, 714/450-7350 ajones(a)rnbo.com or Bock Communications Inc. Valerie Christopherson/Brian Bardwell, 714/374-3530 vchristopherson(a)msn.com REPEATS: New York 212-752-9600 or 800-221-2462; Boston 617-236-4266 or 800-225-2030; SF 415-986-4422 or 800-227-0845; LA 310-820-9473 All content is compiled from a variety of sources by News Alert and provided as a service of PC Quote. See important copyright information. Refresh your screen often for the latest information. © 1997 News Alert Inc.

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Re: Getting Back to our Radical Roots
by John Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>The resources used to break DES, if as many people hosted remailers and >anonymizers on their machines, would further Cypherpunks goals a lot more >than breaking DES, which we all know was breakable (as we know what "56 >bits" means). There were messages here some time back about systems like anonymizer but chainable and using cryptography. Did anything come of that? Efficient anonymous web browsing could be a killer app for crypto. Use anonymous web access to get to hotmail accounts like this one and you have anonymous email, easy to use. "John --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Fw: Advance Bank launches ecash
by Wayne Clerke 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> >>>>>Thank you for being so patient. ecash is now available from our web site >>>>>at: http//www.advance.com.au/ecash > >>Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> wrote: >>>No mention of "untraceable" or "anonymous" or "Chaum." And no mention of >>>"Digicash," except in your (Wayne's) introduction; Digicash is, rightly or >>>wrongly, a trademark of the company with the same name. > >If there _wasn't_ any mention of those, there certainly is now :-) >The right-hand frame, after the pictures of PCs and dollar signs and logos, >has copyright notices, trademark notice for "ecash", and the addresses >and URLs for Advance Bank Australia Ltd. and Digicash BV in the Netherlands. > >And the "Support" page has the following URLs: > For more ecash info, refer to the DigiCash Web Site: > Who are DigiCash? > Digital Signatures and Smart Cards > Numbers that are money > It seems I haven't been paying enough attention lately ... just visited www.digicash.com and discovered Advance is only one of several new banks offering (or about to offer ecash). > ># Thanks; Bill ># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com ># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp ># (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) > Regards, Mail: <a href=mailto:wclerke@emirates.net.ae>Wayne Clerke</a> PGP key ID: AEB2546D FP: D663D11E DA19D74F 5032DC7E E001B702 PGP mail welcome. Voice: +971 506 43 48 53 If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.

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Re: (Fwd) New crypto bill clears committee
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text X-Authentication-Warning: fma66.fma.com: majordomo set sender to owner-espam(a)lists.espace.net using -f X-Orig-From: Robert Hettinga <rah(a)shipwright.com> X-e$pam-source: owner-cryptography(a)c2.net X-Sender: rah(a)atanda.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 17:00:33 -0400 To: espam(a)intertrader.com, e$pam <e$pam(a)atanda.com> From: Robert Hettinga <rah(a)shipwright.com> Subject: Re: (Fwd) New crypto bill clears committee Sender: owner-espam(a)lists.espace.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: e$(a)thumper.vmeng.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- This mail is brought to you by the e$pam mailing list --------------------------------------------------------------------- owner-cryptography(a)c2.org using -f X-Sender: rah(a)atanda.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 15:15:58 -0400 To: Adam Shostack <adam(a)homeport.org> From: Robert Hettinga <rah(a)shipwright.com> Subject: Re: (Fwd) New crypto bill clears committee Cc: cryptography(a)c2.net Sender: owner-cryptography(a)c2.net > At 7:56 AM -0400 6/20/97, Adam Shostack wrote: > I plan to spend a substaintial portion of my day explaining to the > large companies I consult with that this is a very bad thing, and they > should be opposing its advance. Said syllogistically, Digital Commerce *is* Financial Cryptography, Financial Cryptography *is* Strong Cryptography, therefore, Digital Commerce *is* Strong Cryptography. and therefore, No Strong Cryptography, no Digital Commerce. Instructions for the use of this syllogism: Invite 'em to a presentation. Use one proposition per slide, with nothing on the slide but the proposition, centered vertically and horizontally. Don't make handouts. Put up the first slide, and defend the proposition. Repeat until last slide. Ask for questions. The bill is in the mail. ;-). QED, RAH ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Where people, networks and money come together: Consult Hyperion http://www.hyperion.co.uk info(a)hyperion.co.uk --------------------------------------------------------------------- Like e$? Help pay for it! See <http://www.shipwright.com/beg.html> Or, for e$/e$pam sponsorship, <mailto:rah@shipwright.com> --------------------------------------------------------------------- --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

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A site idea
by Jason William RENNIE 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hello all, Well after joining this list a few days ago, i've decided to take the plunge and post something. I was looking for feedback on an idea for a site. I hope this dosen't violate any rules for posting and i appologise if it does. Please dont flame me for my ignorance if i've broken any unspecified rules for posting. Anyway on to my idea. I'm a Christian (NO not some religious right looney from the states). My idea was to setup a site dedicated to secure and anonymous transmiion of data. The appilication being for Christian missionaries in dangerous countries, but also as a general purpose site for crypto and anoniminty. I was hoping to collect information on setting up anon remailers of various types and compiling links and articles for the site. Can anybody point me in the right direction ? Again i hope i haven't offended anyone or broken any posting rules to this forum. Jason =8-]

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Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 19:22:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Charles Platt <cp(a)panix.com> To: Declan McCullagh <declan(a)well.com> Subject: Re: CDT Policy Post 3.08 - Senate Committee Approves Key Crypto Bill (fwd) > From: Jonah Seiger <jseiger(a)cdt.org> > This process is raw and smelly, I know, but it's also called Democracy. The United States is not a pure democracy, it is a constitutional republic. I believe I have a constitutional right to privacy. I also believe that I probably have a constitutional right to anonymity. It doesn't matter what "most senators" think, or indeed what "most Americans" think, if their thinking is contradicted by the Constitution. We do not have simple majority rule, here. In fact the founders of the country went out of their way to insure that the simple majority could not easily violate the principles upon which the country was founded. > But before we get all caught up in the old jihad between "the purists" and > the "pragmatists", just think about this for a moment: If we are going to > have a prayer of getting out of this Congress without getting stuck with > manditory key recovery, we have to at least recognize where we fit in to > the overall equation and how the system actually works. We can do a lot to > impact the outcome of this issue -- but not if we are operating in a > different area code from reality. This can be summarized as "compromise or else." I have never believed that this is an acceptable policy when dealing with people who are ethically impaired. Moreover, it is not even a SENSIBLE policy, from a purely pragmatic point of view. Did ACT-UP adopt a compromising position in order to get what they wanted? Would they have done better if they had agreed to compromise? Of course not. You have no hope of getting even a fraction of what you want, when dealing with the power-crazed yahoos in DC, unless you are willing either to bribe them or be an intransigent extremist. (So it seems to me, anyway.) The CDT party line always seems to be, "play ball and kiss ass in the hope that legislators will be nice to you." Thanks, but no thanks.

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Re: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! (fwd)
by Robert A. Costner 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 04:57 PM 6/20/97 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >>From: "Robert A. Costner" <pooh(a)efga.org> >>To: action(a)efga.org >>Subject: [EFGA] WE won our court case!! >> >>EFGA was granted a preliminary injunction in our court case >>against the state of Georgia. Details and press release to follow. > >Yee-hah! If you ignore CONgress, we've had a good week, between >this court and the New York CDA courts doing the right thing >and the DES crack finishing. > >>Let's meet somewhere tonight to celebrate! >Obviously y'all should meet in the Atlanta Underground, wearing masks :-) >(though I won't be there, since it's a bit far from the West Coast...) I find messages like this to be interesting. I assume that there is some void in the souls of some that cannot be filled and they look elsewhere for that spark that will bring them what they are looking for. I regret that when they look to me, they do not find it. That I am not the answer does not surprise me. That anyone would think I might be the answer is what is surprising. What is EFGA? It is an unfunded group of Georgia based internet users who have an interest in privacy, free speech, and the free use of the internet. For about six months or so, we grumbled about how bad things were. Then, a few of us got the idea that if only we tried to change something, we just might do it. Eighteen months later, we won a case in federal court against the state of Georgia. "Yee-ha"? Is this meant to be a derisive comment? No money. No legal training. Not a lawyer to support us. What were we to do? We went to the ACLU and they told us the case had no standing - they couldn't help us with the Georgia law. We got no better treatment from EFF. This message was not sent to this list - cyberpunks or remailer operators. It was only sent to an internal EFGA list of people who made a claim that they wanted to find out more about EFGA. Me? I'm a software developer. I don't work for EFGA. I just founded the group, and participate in it's running and policy. No one works for EFGA. As I said we are unfunded. We have no offices, we have no staff. Obviously this is a victory for free speech. This is grassroots activism. This email message I see is not unusual. Why do so many people who would presumably be on the same side as EFGA and myself do what is apparently trying to pick at us? What is the difference between someone in EFGA and someone else on this list? If I can read the federal register when I get home from work and call up the Social Security Administration and ask to speak on a panel they are having, then anyone can. If a group of people with no financial or legal resources can call themselves EFGA and sue the state, then why can't someone else? Yee-ha? Meet in Underground Atlanta wearing masks? What kind of comments are these? I spent gasoline, time, and three dollars for parking today to meet with the CIO of Georgia to speak with him about PGP & encryption. He met with me because I called him on the phone and asked. What are you saying here? Are you suggesting that change is wrong? Are you, like others on this list implying that you can't afford the three dollars or you just don't know how to dial the phone? I didn't post the original message here. If you would like to trade insults, I'll be happy to do so with you. I'd rather just go up to D.C. on a cheap flight and sit in a congressman's office for 45 minutes until a staffer can speak with me. Reasonable men adapt to match the world around them. Unreasonable men try to adapt the world to themselves. Therefore, only unreasonable men bring about change in the world. I may be unreasonable, but I'm not pathetic. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQBVAwUBM6tHFkGpGhRXg5NZAQEyigIAiYVY9kTroAD6Ci4k8plGLBw172HmnzfB snkzbOpnhThf8FokELwXgxgdM7ixJDweKuAICBITY8iozQfVWKUcOQ== =pRgU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Robert Costner Phone: (770) 512-8746 Electronic Frontiers Georgia mailto:pooh@efga.org http://www.efga.org/ run PGP 5.0 for my public key

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crypto wars
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"There must be some way out of here", Said the joker to the thief "There's too much confusion -- I can't get no relief. Businessmen, they drink my wine Plowmen dig my earth. None of them all along the line Know what any of it is worth." "No reason to get excited", the thief he kindly spoke "There are many here among us Who feel that life is but a joke But you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate So let us not speak falsely now The hour is getting late." All along the watchtower Princes kept the view While the women came and went, Barefoot servants, too Outside, in the cold distance, A wildcat did growl Two riders were approaching The wind began to howl.

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Re: "Strength of encryption standard proved again"
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tim May wrote: > >( cryptography(a)c2.net removed from the distribution list, as I am not a > subscriber to that list, and Perry has admonished me when I have > accidentally left his list on the cc: to my messages) From: sameer <sameer(a)c2.net> To: emergent(a)eval-apply.com (ET) CC: cryptography(a)c2.net, cypherpunks(a)toad.com Sameer has his bum-buddy, Perry, censoring c2.net's crypto-propaganda list in order to reflect favorably on cryptography business interests. It seems that this is cheaper than using his legal team to stifle free speech regarding corporate products, especially his own. Despite the fact that Sameer feels free to spam the cypherpunks list with self-serving horseshit that he is sending to cryptography(a)c2.nut, it seems that he has a deep-rooted fear of his products and motives being discussed on the c2.net list. Perry is a horse's ass who gets offended that people subjected to cc:'s of the c2.net propoganda machine don't seem to feel it is their job to perform his censorship for him by deleting sameer's list from the cc:'d spam their list members send out. I would suggest that if Perry wants to act as a censor of free speech on the internet, that he take responsibility for deleting any messages that he deems to be beneath the corporate standards of the list that he censors. Of course, he could always automate the list to only allow posts by subscribers. If the software he uses to run the list doesn't have the capability to do so then perhaps he could ask the Stronghold programers to build a back door in the software to allow him to do so. TruthMonger

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CNNFN transcript -- EPIC vs. Family Research Council on CDA
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:16:38 -0400 From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg(a)epic.org> To: fight-censorship(a)vorlon.mit.edu I'm not looking for any awards, but I thought this debate with Cathy Cleaver went very well. As I said earlier, she doesn't expect to win next week. Marc. ---------- <fontfamily><param>Geneva</param><bigger> CNNFN SHOW: IT'S ONLY MONEY 13:00 pm ET June 20, 1997; Friday 1:17 pm Eastern Time Transcript # 97062002FN-l05 HEADLINE: Panel Discussion on Internet Pornography Law GUESTS: Cathy Cleaver, Bruce Fancher, Marc Rotenberg BYLINE: Valerie Morris BODY: VALERIE MORRIS, CNNfn ANCHOR, IT'S ONLY MONEY: The Supreme Court is expected to rule on the constitutionality of the Communications Decency Act, better known as the CDA, sometime next week. Now, whatever the outcome, the CDA will set the precedent for all future laws involving any censoring of material on the Internet. The past year's debate over the CDA has divided net users into distinct camps of - on issues of cyber censorship. I'm joined today by some important members of those opposing camps, first of all from our bureau in Washington, Marc Rotenberg, who is director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center. Marc was a counsel in challenging the CDA. And from our bureau in Los Angeles, Cathy Cleaver, director of legal policy with the Family Research Council - Cathy co-authored a brief on behalf of members of Congress in defense of the CDA. And with me here in our New York studio is our Generation-X representative on the issue, Bruce Fancher. Formerly a computer hacker, now an entreprenuer, Bruce is the president of Online Evolution Systems. He is also the co- founder of Digital Liberty, which is an online civil rights advocacy group. To all of you, welcome. CATHY CLEAVER, DIRECTOR, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Thank you. MORRIS: I'd like to start out - Cathy, could you please outline what the CDA proposes? CLEAVER: What the CDA does is make it a crime to knowingly send indecent material or pornography to known minors and also makes it a crime to knowingly make it available to minors without taking good faith steps to try to screen minors out, a very reasonable law, no censorship involved. We like that word "censorship." But it's very similar to other laws restricting adults from selling, giving or showing pornography to children in other media. MORRIS: OK. Marc, what's EPIC's response, and what is the challenge with regard to the CDA from your perspective? MARC ROTENBERG, DIRECTOR, EPIC: Well, EPIC and the American Civil Liberties Union challenged the constitutionality of the bill, and so far, we've been successful in our litigation. We've had 2 panels of judges in New York and Philadelphia that have agreed with us unanimously that, contrary to what Cathy says, the bill was poorly drafted. It sweeps much too broadly. It tries to prohibit access to information that the First Amendment has always protected. MORRIS: All right. And now to Bruce, who is here in the studio with me, what's your stance with regard to the issue? BRUCE FANCHER, PRESIDENT, EVOLUTION ONLINE SYSTEMS: My stance is that, while I think the law is clearly ridiculous and unconstitutional, I'm inclined to see it a little bit like the British tax on tea in 1776. So in some sense I hope it is upheld because, sooner or later, the government is going to try to regulate in Internet and we need to start developing tools now to make that difficult or impossible, including moving some of these operations offshore. MORRIS: I'm now going to try and facilitate this with all 3 of you jumping in as you see fit. I would like to ask Bruce, though, a follow- up question. Do you see any business related activity on the net being impacted dramatically by the CDA? FANCHER: Well, my business could potentially be impacted. We run a discussion group which is open to anyone who wants to join, and that's about 10,000 people on it. And we don't have any control of what the people say. So we're vulnerable in that way. MORRIS: Cathy, is indecency out of control on the Internet in your opinion? CLEAVER: Well, we know that people online that sell pornography, for instance, is the fastest growing online marketing right now. It's impossible now to predict what exactly would happen if the CDA were upheld, but let me tell you, you know, when the CDA was first presented, online pornographers started checking their material. They started screening for children, but then when they won their first round in the courts, as Eric mentioned, they went back to showing free pictures of pornography to anyone who came to the site. So, yes, I think it should affect business. Pornography is a booming business online, but it shouldn't affect the adult's ability to get pornography, but only children's ability to get pornography, which is what indecency laws have done for 30 years. MORRIS: Marc, there are regulations for television, regulations for radio. How is the Internet different? ROTENBERG: Well, the Internet is very different from television and radio. There is no central licensing. There is no government review or authority. The Internet is much more like a series of interconnected bookstores or newsstands or libraries, and to understand just how sweeping the CDA could be in its application, it would effectively restrict the ability to anyone to publish information on the Internet, which is why, you know quite frankly, I think the Supreme Court, when it rules next week, will say no, you can't legislate in this manner. CLEAVER: That is truly ridiculous I think, because, listen, we've got indecency laws that effect all of those areas that he just mentioned. So the question. ROTENBERG: Cathy, to what (OFF-MIKE) CLEAVER: .really is -- the question is just: Should we provide an exemption in cyberspace to Larry Flint? Should he be able to sell his magazines to 12 year olds online? We, as a society, say no, you can't do that over the - in a bookstore and you can't rent or sell x- rated videos to kids in a video stores. Should pornographers have a carte blanche in cyperspace? It makes no sense. And the Constitution doesn't require that. Look, free speech is not an absolute right. We all know that. Adults are not able to exploit children by selling them or giving pornography anywhere, and they should be able to, and I believe they won't be able to do that on the Internet. MORRIS: The CD. ROTENBERG: Valerie. MORRIS: Yes? ROTENBERG: .if I could ask a question here. MORRIS: Yes, you can. ROTENBERG: Cathy, how do you think the Supreme Court is going to rule next week? I mean, let's just - let's be blunt about this. Are they going to side with you and say this type of sweeping legislation is permissible, or are they going to side with the people who have been trying to defend free speech online and say, no, you can't do this in this country, you can't try to impose such draconian legislation and controls on what other people may see even if you happen to disagree with it? MORRIS: I'm going to ask you both to hold. Cathy, I will start with your answer when we come back. We do need to take a break right now. Don't go away. We will be back with more on IT'S ONLY MONEY with more on the Communication Decency Act, and when we return, we'll open up the phones for your questions, the number, 1-800-304-fnet. Back in a moment. VALERIE MORRIS, CNNfn ANCHOR, IT'S ONLY MONEY: We are talking about the Communications Decency Act with Marc Rotenberg who is Director of Electronic Privacy Information Center and in opposition to the CDA, Cathy Cleaver who is Director of Legal Policy for the Family Research Council and a supporter of the CDA, and Bruce Fancher, an entrepreneur, founder of Evolution Online Systems. He believes the Internet should be completely unregulated. We will be taking your calls. The number 1-800-304-FNET. As we went to break, Cathy, you had been asked a question by Marc, how do you think the Supreme Court will rule? Please give us your answer. CATHY CLEAVER, DIRECTOR, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: Well, one of the challenges, of course, is to the indecency standard itself, and we can look to just last year when the Supreme Court upheld the indecency standard as a constitutional standard, not overly broad and not vague. You know, the decency standard means a patently offensive depiction of sexual or excretory activities. So, it's not a vague challenge. So, I think that's a definite win. I find it difficult to see how the Supreme Court would reverse itself, since just last year in the cable pornography case, it upheld indecency regulation using that standard for cable. But also, remember, this law has a lot of good faith defense that people can use to show pornography to adults but also make attempts to keep it from children. That's all the law's ever required. MORRIS: But there are a couple of things-the CDA's being challenged on a couple of bases. One is because some say that it's too broad. The other is a standard of decency is unconstitutional, and I think those are the concerns, Bruce, some of which you had an opinion with regard to how the Supreme Court is going to rule. And you say it's because of the unconstitutional issue? GBRUCE FANCHER, PRESIDENT, EVOLUTION ONLINE SYSTEMS: Well, I'm not a lawyer, but from what I've read, it seems to me-my opinion will rule that it's unconstitutional. But I'm much less concerned with placing faith in the political process to protect the Internet than with developing tools which we can use to effectively protect our privacy and our right to communicate and engage in trade on the Internet, regardless of what the government decides to do. MORRIS: Because those are also issues. I mean, we sometimes get stuck on this one, but the CDA also covers surveillance, encryption and consumer privacy. But the most immediate concern tends to be this free speech issue in Cyberspace. CLEAVER: If I can just jump in, the CDA protects privacy in Cyberspace. So, that's how it addresses privacy. It upholds and refers to EPIC's privacy provision that it got it in. MORRIS: Mark, do you agree? MARC ROTENBERG, DIRECTOR, EPIC: I don't know what Cathy's talking about. We didn't have anything to do with the drafting of the bill. It's bad for privacy. But let me just say in response to Bruce, while I'm aware of his concerns and I think there should be good techniques to protect privacy and liberty online, I have not given up on the American political system. I feel very strongly about our constitutional form of government, and the first amendment in particular. And I think next week will in fact be a great victory for our system of government. We will preserve liberty in the online world. MORRIS: All right, we have a caller, Darren, from Canada, thanks for joining us. What's your question or comment? CALLER: Yes, basically I'm just wondering how this all will be enforced. MORRIS: All right, who would like to take that on? How will the law be enforced? CLEAVER: I can take that. Just like other laws are enforced, where first of all, we would require or rely upon, you know, self regulation, that's what happens now with video stores and magazine stores. We require the clerks to abide by the law. And when they don't, then when they run afoul of the law, then prosecutors can, you know, bring an action against them and an investigation. You know, it's not going to be like some have suggested that there's going to be some government Cyberpolice or some sort of government pre-screening of information of all of that which suggests great privacy violations. The law doesn't do that. This is kind of like Chicken Little. You know, the sky is going to fall if the CDA is upheld. That's just nonsense. MORRIS: But what it does to and part of the concern is what about the liability? Who is going to be liable? Marc, can you take that on? ROTENBERG: Yes, well, the liability issue here is actually key. You asked the question at the outset, what is the impact on business? The impact would be enormous for anyone who's trying to use the Internet to get information out. CLEAVER: Only pornographers. ROTENBERG: That's not true, and you know that's not true. CLEAVER: That is true. ROTENBERG: People engaging in speech, operating chat rooms, discussion groups. CLEAVER: Patently offensive sexual or excretory speech. ROTENBERG: Sexual information. We had people testifying at the Philadelphia hearing that if they were providing medical information on breast cancer or to AIDS patients that they faced a risk of prosecution under the statutes. CLEAVER: That's just not true. The indecency definition has never been applied in that way. It's never been applied in that way. ROTENBERG: The judges who have looked at the CDA heard our arguments, heard your arguments, have rejected your arguments. They don't agree with you, Cathy. CLEAVER: Well those judges didn't. ROTENBERG: And I think it's important to keep that in mind. We are going to win next week in the Supreme Court. MORRIS: I would like to inject something here, and ask Bruce, with regard to your business, will the CDA have direct impact on your business, and especially because you still have online chat rooms? I mean, do you see that as a potential area where you could be held liable? FANCHER: That's really something that I've been concerned about. I haven't consulted a lawyer specifically, but I'm definitely concerned about it. MORRIS: OK, we have another caller, Christian, from New York. Thanks for joining us. What's your question? CALLER: Hi, my question is as follows: How can we regulate the world? As we know, the Internet is not only one organization located in the United States. But it's all over the world. How can we impose laws to the entire world. We can't do that. FANCHER: That's a very good point, what affect the CDA will have if it's upheld is it will advance the process which is going to eventually happen anyway of moving any kind of Internet service or activities which might be slightly illicit or simply where the proprietors want to avoid taxation or regulation to other parts of the world, specifically places like the Caiman Islands, the Bahamas, Anguilla. It does not take a lot of resources to run copper wire to a Caribbean island and operate an Internet server there. And I'm looking forward to the day when that's more common. ROTENBERG: Bruce, let me say, I'm not looking forward to that day. I think the Internet offers wonderful opportunities for American business and American citizens and American consumers, and the thought that we would want a law to pass which would effectively move all of this activity offshore doesn't seem to me to be something that many people would be in favor of. FANCHER: Well, only the servers have to be offshore. The people behind the information can remain in the United States. As you know, using encryption, that's perfectly feasible. MORRIS: And what about the penalties? Let's get to that. If the CDA is upheld by the Supreme Court, what kind of penalties are people facing? Are these felonies? ROTENBERG: Well, these are criminal sanctions. I mean, which includes both fines and the risk of imprisonment. And one of the other great concerns that arises when you try to punish people for speech is always the question how are these decisions going to be made? What type of speech is going to trigger, you know-one type of publication ends you up in jail for 3 years, and another type of publication isn't prosecuted. There's always a problem with prosecuting people based on what they say or what they print. MORRIS: I'm going to ask each of you in the last moments that we have- we have about 20 seconds each to wrap up your point of view. Can I start, Cathy, we started with you. Let's begin this wrap-up with you. CLEAVER: Sure. The idea that Cyberspace is going to be exempt from any laws, I think, is just nonsense. We know that to be the case. If Cyberspace, if the Internet is going to survive as a marketing forum which most of the people want it to be, there are going to have to be some rules and regulations, some laws against fraud, some laws against exploitation. There are laws now against child pornography. You know, these are important. It's important to build this new community in such a way that we can actually operate with each other as we do with an amount of trust and an amount of responsibility imposed by laws. It's just-it's inevitable. It's going to happen. MORRIS: Cathy Cleaver from-the Director of Legal Policy for Family Research Council. Thank you very much for adding to today's conversation. CLEAVER: You're welcome. MORRIS: And, Bruce, your comment for a wrap-up. FANCHER: Well, I'd like to say to Cathy that 25 years ago the idea of 100 million personal computers sounded like nonsense. And 5 years ago the idea of 40 or 50 million people connected to the Internet sounded like nonsense. So, I'd be very careful before making statements like that. And I would like to say that I still believe in the U.S. Constitution, but I believe we need technological solutions to back it up. MORRIS: All right, Bruce Fancher, thank you very much for being with us. And then the final word, Marc Rotenberg, Director, Electronic Privacy Information Center. ROTENBERG: Well, Valerie, I'm looking forward to next week. The Supreme Court is going to rule on a very important case, affecting the freedom and the future of the Internet. And it is my hope and my belief that they're going to take one of the principles that this country was founded on, a right of individuals to express their views, even when others may disagree strongly, and protect that right. It was established in the 18th century, and I'm hopeful that it will remain with us in the 21st. MORRIS: Marc Rotenberg, Director, Electronic Privacy Information Center. Thank you to all three of you. I hope that we can revisit this issue if not next week, in the very near future. Thank you all very much. END LANGUAGE: ENGLISH LOAD-DATE: June 20, 1997 </bigger></fontfamily> ================================================================== Marc Rotenberg, director * +1 202 544 9240 (tel) Electronic Privacy Information Center * +1 202 547 5482 (fax) 666 Pennsylvania Ave., SE Suite 301 * rotenberg(a)epic.org Washington, DC 20003 USA + http://www.epic.org ==================================================================

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