December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

[FWD] Further Attacks on "cajones.com" Vindicate Jeff Burchell and the Huge Cajones Remailer
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

dr(a)ripco.com (David Richards) wrote: > It appears that the domain 'cajones.com' is being abandoned due to the ^^^^^^^^^^^ > massive forgery by spammers? No nameservers respond... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Enclosed is a spam recently received, through the open relay 'rio.bravo.net' > from an IBM.NET dialup. > > Note that the only body text in this spam is a URL that doesn't work because > the spammer truncated the URL, and the complete url points to what appears > to be a legitimate site, so he was probably trying to promote a personal > home page or other sub-site on 'http://www.fcl.metronet.lib.mi.us/' > > > === Spam with headers intact === > > From cajones.com!weijoro79 Fri Oct 31 22:58:42 1997 > Return-Path: <weijoro79(a)cajones.com> > Received: from rio.bravo.net (root(a)207.48.46.12) > by XXXXX.ZZZZZ.com with SMTP; 1 Nov 1997 04:58:38 -0000 > Received: from LOCALNAME (slip166-72-172-87.fl.us.ibm.net [166.72.172.87]) by rio.bravo.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) > with SMTP id WAA24372; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:32:27 -0600 > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:32:27 -0600 > From: weijoro79(a)cajones.com > To: weijoro79(a)cajones.com > Comments: Authenticated sender is <weijoro79(a)cajones.com> > Errors-To: nobody(a)nowhere.com > Subject: Create custom targeted e-mail address lists... > Message-Id: <199711012578NAA22995(a)cajones.bravo.net> > > http://www.fcl.metronet.lib.m That's quite interesting. Spam is arriving with forged headers that attempt to implicate "cajones.com". That domain has quite a colorful history. According to InterNIC records, it's operated by Jeff Burchell, who is also the former operator of the defunct Huge Cajones Remailer which he operated as part of that domain. Along came Gary Burnore <gburnore(a)netcom.com>, CEO of DataBasix, who claimed that Jeff's remailer at cajones.com was being used to "forge" his e-mail address to Usenet articles. His only evidence was a few messages which happened to have a "cajones.com" message id in the headers, and they weren't even very convincing forgery attempts at that. Gary Burnore, Belinda Bryan <eridani(a)ix.netcom.com>, and William J. McClatchie (aka "Wotan") <wmcclatc(a)primenet.com> managed to harass Jeff sufficiently that he shut the remailer down. At the time, Burnore refused to concede the possibility that any "forgeries" of articles in his name might also have forged headers designed to implicate "cajones.com" as well. Rather he relied on the fact that Jeff kept no logs which could prove the innocence of himself and his remailer. Now the "cajones.com" domain is dead, and yet it's still showing up in forged headers! It looks like another of Gary Burnore's "shoot first and ask questions later" accusations has been cast into doubt. Unfortunately, it's probably too late to undo the disinformation campaign that he waged against Jeff Burchell and other remailer operators. -- Without censorship, things can get terribly confused in the public mind. -- General William Westmoreland

1 0

PGPsdk is out, but not for free
by phelix＠vallnet.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

First, PGPsdk has been released: http://www.pgp.com/sdk/ The bad news: the licensing fees are so high that there will be no freeware or shareware applications using it. Here's an example of the licensing: License Plan #1 Authentication, Encryption/Decryption, PGP/MIME, Key Management: $25,000 advance on royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per server) Add Certificate Server Integration: $5,000 advance on royalties Support/Upgrades (includes email support by a trained developer support technician) $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments Oh well, back to hacking an interface to PGPtray. -- Phelix

1 0

Re: [SURVEY] pgp5.x / pgp2.x users
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Adam Back <aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk> wrote: >Fill out and email me, and I'll tabulate results, and post here and on >ietf-open-pgp: >==============================8<============================== >mini straw poll on pgp2.x and 5.x usage: > >1. What are you currently using for everyday use: 2.x or 5.x >[ 2 or 5 ] 2.x. 5.x is purposefully incompatable and crippled. >2. What proportion of people you use PGP to communicate with are using 5.x >[ x / y ] None. If they're using 5.x I by definition can't communicate with them. >3. How many of the 5.x users you communicate with are cypherpunks >[ z ] See above. >==============================8<============================== >The question has come up on ietf-open-pgp as to how important it is >for the OpenPGP standard to support backwards compatibility with >pgp2.x. Very. 5.x right now is nothing but annoying. I can understand wanting to use the new algorithms. However if the authors want to do that and literally force people into upgrading then they need to make sure that every platform which had a version of 2.x has a version of 5.x available, and they need to stop breaking *every* script and program which calls PGP. If they release a version of PGP for one platform before they do others and the new version is incompatable with the old for all intents and purposes, they're just feeding OS wars, frustration, and hostility. >The IETF generally likes to steer clear of patented algorithms as >MUSTs in standards. This encourages implementations, etc. >(Personally I'm pretty keen on this point, though I would like more >backwards compatible pgp5.x implementations -- I've already received >emails I can't read without resorting to the pgp5 command line app, >which doesn't work with my mailer integrated system.) That's exactly my situation. I figure, however, that if somebody is going to send out broken email I won't bother kludging around to read it no more than I will go start X11 and fire off a 20 MB browser (Communicator) because some moron doesn't know how to use HTML as it was originally designed. I'm personally appalled at the number of Cypherpunks using a version of PGP which is completely incompatable with previous versions and outrageously annoying to use unless you run Windows since it breaks everything which is integrated. >So the question arises, just how many pgp2.x users are there. PGP Inc >are pointing to the ratio of RSA keys to DSA/EG keys on keyservers as >showing that pgp2.x users are in the minority. However that ratio is >something like 20,000 to 75,000, and I'm sure we've heard statistics >in the past about there being literally millions of pgp 2.x users. >One suspects that either many pgp 2.x users aren't using keyservers (I >know several cypherpunks who have something against key servers and >avoid them for perceived security or privacy reasons), and/or the >pgp2.x user base is exaggerated. You can't compare the user bases this way. First, 5.x integrates easily into several Windows mailers. This encourages people to go get it and install it over 2.x. Second, 5.x integrates keyserver functions. 2.x does not. It's really no work for 5.x users to submit a key to a keyserver, where it takes some effort with 2.x. Third, most people probably have Windows installed already. They heard 5.x was out, and didn't realize that it was so...well, broken. I know I fetched 5.x when it came out and installed it. I almost sent my key to the servers, then stopped to think about how the generated key doesn't work with 2.x. Fourth, if you're using Windows and communicating with other Windows users there is really no reason not to use 5.x. People communicating with classmates at universities and such are likely to go install 5.x because it's easy to use, send their key to the keyservers because they can, and inflate the numbers. Fifth, there are far more Windows users than users of other OSes. Windows users have no reason not to upgrade, while other users have every reason to stick with previous version. I think the major problem with 5.x right now as it stands is the complete lack of support from http://beta.pgp.com, the forced command-line incompatabilities, and the lack of a stable multiplatform version. Add to that the CMR debacle. Now in defense of PGP 5.x I do like the keyserver integration, expiry dates on keys, and some of the other features. I like how it integrates with the mailers. This entire thing makes me think of a web site which checks your browser and OS. If you aren't running what the author likes, it tells you that you suck, you're a moron, you're behind the times, you're using an inferior operating system, and then doesn't show you the data. This is analogous to what PGP Inc. has done. This compatability thing could have very easily been avoided. Face it, PGP Inc. screwed up. I think it's ultimately going to be the job of Cypherpunks outside of the Land of the Freeh to clean up their mess. Has anyone considered hacking up 2.6.xi to handle the new format? It would have to be saner than 5.x is at this point. I would try, but I'm in the Land of the Freeh where you put your backside on the line to write any crypto software at all. Ah, I love America. CompatabilityMonger

2 1

Re:
by wabe 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

yeah, so ABC has an absolutly discusting thing last night (was that 20/20) that I watched for almost 20 minutes, in which they actually showed the "raptists" (he met and had sex? with a fifteen year old girl.) Who even meets girls on the internet? Then there was a proto-hacker who shut down the porn chat rooms on Aol. (I commend him, if for nothing else, than for developing software that shuts down parts of AOL. :>) Anyways, Mr. Protohacker actually cried on the camera, because he was raped at age 4, and he couldn't believe we let those pornographers on the internet to spread their web of filth. When TV gets into the war against the Internet, it scares me. I don't want a war between the bible belt and the technocrats... _______________________________________ -wabe

1 0

New remailer in operation at CharmQuark@juno.com
by vcarlos35＠juno.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi everyone, I'm running an Type 1 (or Cypherpunks) Remailer at CharmQuark(a)juno.com, using GoddessHera's Juno Remailer ver 4.9, with nym capabilities turned on. Send a message with subject "remailer-help" (No quotes) for more information.

1 0

Re: What Will Revolution Look Like?
by Adam Shostack 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The distinction between civilians and soldiers, which came about in the 17th and 18th centuries, is close to meaningless in the context of a modern revolution. However, this distinction, and the Clausewitzian claim that war is the continuation of politics by other means, underly the 'law of war.' War as the continuation of politics implies that the State sends soldiers to war against other soldiers to fight for policy rights. War to gain teritory, war over insults or honor, religious war, is seen as a thing of the past. Barbaric. Modern warriors can not understand people who play by other rules. To some extent, this has been good for us civilians. The firebombings of German cities were an exception, not the rule. However, as the anti-colonial movement demonstrated, a people can effectively fight a modern army, and win. They are marked as terrorists, defamed for their capitalist activites such as drug smuggling to finance the struggle, and hanged when caught. A modern revolution, as Mao taught, is based on forcing people to decide if they are with you or against you. There are no neutrals who simply want the status quo to continue, because once the revolutionaries have started to do their job, the state lashes out, passing facist new laws (see Northern Ireland, Peru, the United States). The status quo disappears, and the revolutionaries are committed. It is only by making starkly clear who stands where that enough people to fuel the revolution can have the manpower to sucseed. The alternative to the revolution becomes living under the government that killed your family members. In Algeria, once the first few thousands of martyrs died, every additional person the French killed was a new reason to fight. Surrender, to the Alerians, became inconcievable. Life as French was not worth living. So they fought. When the revolution comes to the United States, it will not be a pretty thing. Our best hope is for a rapid surrender of the current government, which is not likely. By deploying now the tools of communication (remailers, strong encryption, directions for building bombs and traps, cheap radio transmitters), as well as the tools for deception (how hard is it to build a fake GPS transmitter?), and the understanding that the US governemnt has grown cancerous, we bring closer the begenning and the end of the revolution. We bring its start closer by forcing the Government to show its true colors, turning more people against it. We bring its finish closer by having ready the tools to render ineffective the large fighting machines we have paid for, by making it clear tht the government does not have the support of the people, and by making it clear that once committed, we will have to fight. So, Tim, we disagree that it will be like nothing seen before. It will be like many modern revolutions, because we can't force the government to fight on our terms today. 20 years later, we will look back, and realize that governments have murdered most of the innocents they will ever kill, because will can deploy technology to make government voluntary. But we're not there, and getting there may be bloody. There is, of course, Duncan's Berlin Wall theory, but I fear things will have to get worse before they get better. Adam Tim May wrote: | Some of the questions by Mark Rogaski and others ask about the nature of | the revolution I and others are predicting and encouraging. | | What will a just revolution, like those anticipated by Jefferson, Franklin, | and others, look like? | | The British thought the colonial rebels were "playing dirty" by shooting | from behind trees instead of marching in bright uniforms with drums and | bugles to herald their way. | | Modern armies think freedom fighters are "terrorist scum" for not fighting | honestly and fairly in their own M-1 Abrams tanks and aircraft carriers. | | So, too, will revolutionaries be seen as fighting "unfairly" and being | unethical sneaks, child killers, and terrorists. | | (As if children and other innocents did not die in various incidents in | past wars, on all sides.) | | When Jefferson predicted that a revolution was needed every 20 years or so, | he surely was not saying that throwing one party out of leadership and | putting the other party in was an example of such a revolution, or that | "campaign reform" is such an example. Nor was he saying that the only valid | revolution would be when a buch of citizens or states got together their | own army and marched on Washington. | | (Actually, raising such an army is in violation of numerous laws about | heavy weaons, licenses to carry weapons, etc. No doubt illegal. Ironically.) | | No, the revolution, when it comes, will likely be different from anything | quite like we've seen to date. -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume

1 0

Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:28:22 GMT > From: Adam Back <aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk> > The real problem as I see it with democracy is that not only do your > neighbours get to vote to have you locked up for something which is > none of their business, and has no conceivable effect up on them; but > they actually get to vote for you to be charged for the "service" of > being locked up to protect you from yourself. Exactly what kind of democracy are you speaking of? Sounds like you are lumping them all into one big bucket, a disservice to all involved in this discussion and a popular spin-doctor tactic. If so, please be so kind as to demonstrate how a representative, constitutional, and majority democracy are the same? And for the record, we have a constitutional representative democracy. Personaly, I figure you must be one of those folks with a cognitive disfunction. What part of "Congress shall make no law..." do you not understand? > The wild west was better than this state of affairs -- people didn't > have the energy or inclination to waste their own resources being nosy > parkers, and those that did were apt to wind up full of lead. Boy, you history is simply fucked. If you seriosly think the west was like television you should spend more time reading books and period newspapers and less time looking at the boob-tube. At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders associated with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular entertainment media and spin-doctor culture would have you believe. Get your fucking facts straight. Face off's at high-noon simply didn't happen and poeple didn't run around having gun fights all the time. I would suggest *strongly* that if nothing else you review the western history series by Time*Life, should be at your local library, and UT Press put out a book called "The Texas Rangers". I have both of them but unfortunately they are in my shop 30 miles away. A lookup at your local bookstore should get them if you are truly interested in how it was. "The Quick & The Dead" was a movie, not a historical documentary. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

2 1

Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:06:10 GMT > From: Adam Back <aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk> > Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd) > > Jim Choate <ravage(a)ssz.com> writes: > > > > Exactly what kind of democracy are you speaking of? Sounds like you are > > lumping them all into one big bucket, > > I figure it's a reasonable summary of a lot of democracies right now. What is a reasonable summary? Reasonable to who? What 'lot' of democracies? > > If so, please be so kind as to demonstrate how a representative, > > constitutional, and majority democracy are the same? And for the > > record, we have a constitutional representative democracy. > > Didn't say they were "the same". No, but you certainly imply it with your broad brush. > But they do share a characteristic: > distortions of free market in the form of voting for theft and > redistribution of other peoples money leading to annoying government > micro-management, and general do-gooder busy-body-ness, and the many > laws on thought crimes. Again, demostrate your assertion(s). Who? What? When? Where? Why? How? > > Personaly, I figure you must be one of those folks with a cognitive > > disfunction. What part of "Congress shall make no law..." do you not > > understand? > > I understand it, but US politicians either don't, or don't care and > largely ignore the constitution. What does it matter whether I > understand it or not? If you don't understand it you can't use it, effectively or otherwise. > Your constitution says you can own and carry > guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you > can not. Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand > the constitution? No, my responce is prove your assertions. Explain to me why you believe these are valid views and why they provide a more usable environment for understanding what is going on then others. > > > The wild west was better than this state of affairs -- people didn't > > > have the energy or inclination to waste their own resources being nosy > > > parkers, and those that did were apt to wind up full of lead. > > > > Boy, you history is simply fucked. If you seriosly think the west was like > > television you should spend more time reading books and period newspapers > > and less time looking at the boob-tube. > > I don't own a TV, and so don't watch much (by choice -- it's mostly > garbage); printed mass media is a bit better, but not that much. Nice side step. > > At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders associated > > with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular entertainment media > > and spin-doctor culture would have you believe. Get your fucking > > facts straight. > > I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was low. No, you said *nothing* about murder rate. What you did say was that back in the old days people ran around killing those who bothered them. Which isn't true either. > The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their > neighbours what they could think. Really? What was the law count say in 1865 versus 1965? 1897 v 1997? Demonstrate your point.

3 2

PGPsdk is out, but not for free
by lcs Mixmaster Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

More proof that the PGP folks have some kind of alterior motive. Translation: They created a software package which purposefully breaks the previous free versions of that package. Then they release a development kit for that package with outrageous licensing fees. Welcome to the new PGP Inc. >First, PGPsdk has been released: > http://www.pgp.com/sdk/ >The bad news: the licensing fees are so high that there will be no >freeware or shareware applications using it. Here's an example of the >licensing: >License Plan #1 > Authentication, Encryption/Decryption, > PGP/MIME, Key Management: $25,000 advance on >royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per >server) >Add Certificate Server Integration: > $5,000 advance on royalties >Support/Upgrades > (includes email support by a trained > developer support technician) > $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments

1 0

PGPsdk is out, but not for free
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

More proof that the PGP folks have some kind of alterior motive. Translation: They created a software package which purposefully breaks the previous free versions of that package. Then they release a development kit for that package with outrageous licensing fees. Welcome to the new PGP Inc. >First, PGPsdk has been released: > http://www.pgp.com/sdk/ >The bad news: the licensing fees are so high that there will be no >freeware or shareware applications using it. Here's an example of the >licensing: >License Plan #1 > Authentication, Encryption/Decryption, > PGP/MIME, Key Management: $25,000 advance on >royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per >server) >Add Certificate Server Integration: > $5,000 advance on royalties >Support/Upgrades > (includes email support by a trained > developer support technician) > $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments

1 0

No Subject
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

## In-reply-to: <19971101145349.14850(a)ultra7.umr.edu> (message from Matthew Nuckolls on Sat, 1 Nov 1997 14:53:49 -0600) Subject: Re: cute. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Matthew Nuckolls says > Warning: The following message is apolitical. > > > -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > > mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680 > > ... > > =6dKS > > -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > > What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same > channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. The purpose is to create a persistent nym. The signature, and public key ensures that you know that this message is from the same person as you were attempting to nit pick :-] > I can't verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since > you're anonymous. True. So it's only as good as the keys you might fetch from a keyserver that you have no connection to in the web of trust. You aren't supposed to link it to my True Name. All that can be done is to get a signature from a timestamp server, and a signature from Bill Stewart's nym key signing service. I don't think there are any timestamp servers which provide key signatures. Anyone want to start one? This is important because it prevents someone else from generating more keys with the same userID, such as happened with Tim May's blacknet key. The only protection I have against that is the public record of my key being posted to cypherpunks. The http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/ archive helps as a public record of first publishing of a key with this userID. A timestamp service signature on my key would be a better solution. Amad3us -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQCVAwUBNFugu/KMuKFNFivhAQEJUwP7BUCoER9V60RDWQHLRNB1tGudDwWtQsRy lnZJuI+VK9ljr5ze6O8b7/3WLItSqxyd4o+yyf/hx7SARqyZ1BV6KEljUXe7i3RQ 4Dy5H7/E+hZe9B4cN9OYs8A2oAcLKs5fIYSKqyEado6+IL4G9YrDTNmz28z/flmY kvfVsPWKk7w= =oXSI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQCNAzRbd7MAAAEEAONwsEpUgiezyfP6lxBzM5SfHJS6MK12JyR09KBZp2rrW680 4vbKAO/oteftRRM1jYYaQM6pUd2Tbb9z+cSuQGr2GH9kQ0Y7bllh89E1PItj7frG ARSCbt1gbbXDXEICY8Ne1zZB7FfMt2qGVBdrKG/i2vfdZa5+n/KMuKFNFivhAAUR tCNBbWFkM3VzIDxjeXBoZXJwdW5rc0BjeWJlcnBhc3MubmV0PokAlQMFEDRbjMPy jLihTRYr4QEB38ED/1P9L2yLURl5B2GJok3eIf6EnF1ahFxSK7wuK++YfKRKb3Ku oPTzwSXH+92PZX28dpC+aYu8Qb0dMSCk4Cadn9cxz4n42u509JU4z0o897lB4u2I TxV3YKbBAQSv/jZ/Gq8drdFtemQXUPigNL6IjDAPc/REiHv7IZNKAniSBo1P =N8Gg -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

1 0

PGPsdk is out, but not for free (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:36:05 -0500 > From: Anonymous <anon(a)anon.efga.org> > Subject: PGPsdk is out, but not for free > >License Plan #1 > > > Authentication, Encryption/Decryption, > > PGP/MIME, Key Management: $25,000 advance on > >royalties + 2% of product revenues (minimum $1 per client and $35 per > >server) > > >Add Certificate Server Integration: > > $5,000 advance on royalties > > >Support/Upgrades > > (includes email support by a trained > > developer support technician) > > $1,500 per year + 15% of royalty payments > Hmmm, will have to rethink suggesting any PGP based products to my customers now. I simply refuse to pay anybody any percentage of my product revenues simply because I use their tool. I buy a SDK for a flat fee like I buy a book, screwdriver, or a car. I can't imagine Black & Decker wanting a percentage of the house sale simply because the carpenter used their hammers and saws. Ford or Chevy wanting to see my income statement each year so they can figure out how much I owe them because I drive their brand of vehicle to my customers sites...yeah right. $25k?...PGP Inc.....Get a clue. Hell, at those kinds of license fees I can afford to develop my own libraries. What I do with it and how much money I make with it is my income alone (minus taxes) *unless* they want to cover some percentage of my business costs (which I don't want). ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

1 0

Re: effective GACK fighting
by Blanc 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tim May wrote: >Where have you folks been the last couple of years? Given that the list has >been discussing the Bernstein case (and 30 of us even attended some of >Judge Patel's hearings in SF), and the Junger and Karn cases have been >extensively reported, and the CDA was overturned, I'd certainly say court >battles have been a priority for a long time. ............................................. The Bernstein, Junger, and Karn cases are all about a single issue. The EFF focuses on the same computer/internet/privacy issues. What I was envisioning was the fundamental conflicts like a basic observance of respect for human beings in their pursuit of the Three Virtues (the opposite of the Four Horsement <g>) - Life, Liberty, Happiness, and for legitimate consent - not the manufactured "voluntary" complicity to demands like taxation and all the other crimes which have been discussed on the list. >Certainly I don't know of any Cypherpunks pushing for legislative >solutions. Most of us have explicitly condemned the legislative actions, >realzing that Congress can only make things worse. I wouldn't expect any new laws to be passed as a result of this kind of court battle, nor expect Congress or even the Supremes to approve of and support it. The only purpose would be to challenge the whole lot of government agencies who accept the above-mentioned flaws as unquestionable government rights-of-way. A revolutionary sort of action, in other words, not for the purpose of getting legislation/legislators on "our side", but to back them up against the wall and squish them. (Operation Squish. heh-heh. Ya'll remember that?) I don't know exactly how this could be brought about, but I would expect it would have more the structure and sense of a 'noble cause' such as the Originals brought to their revolution, than simply to gather into groups like the 'Patriots' and the 'Freemen' and such, who are more incoherent than admirable. The Originals also made their attempts at negotiating their case with unsympathetic rulers, preceding their realization that they were getting nowhere. And it is more than likely that current court judges are just as dull and dense and morally asleep at the wheel as King George. But the thing is to bring out these flaws explicitly, in the place designed for such things, where they may be attended to in the civilized manner created for such conflicts of MO. The Case of the Individual against the State. I can dream, can't I? It would make a great TV series. (You, of course, would rather spit-polish your guns and buy more ammo.) .. Blanc

1 0

Re: democracy?! (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:06:03 GMT > From: Adam Back <aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk> > Subject: Re: democracy?! > > Jim Choate <ravage(a)ssz.com> writes: > > What is a reasonable summary? Reasonable to who? What 'lot' of > > democracies? > > This is getting kind of repetitive. I agree, I keep asking for your examples and proof and you keep avoiding providing them. You should consider being a politician or a lawyer. It's a real pity you can't seem to approach this discussion in good faith and with a sense of open analysis. > Perhaps you could provide a > counter example to disprove my claim that democracies result in more > petty privacy and freedom invasive laws than would be the case with a > pure market anarchy Pure market anarchy? What the hell is a pure market? I know what a free market is. Define it first. Explain how it, without an explicit bill of rights, will protect my rights? Explain how we don't end up with a Microsoft that owns everything which effectively reduces to a commercial communism? Where are my 'exit' choices then? What in the world would motivate such an entity to provide me with the resources to be a direct competitor, something clearly not in its best interest for long-term survival? How will others learn the technology and its applications outside the purvue of these economic regulatory entities. The unlimited expansion of the rail-roads in the 1800's is a excellent simili for comparison for both what such a system would be like as well as the major problems it *doesn't* address. Taminy Hall ring any bells? There was a free market political system if there ever was one; pay me and I'll do it for you, don't and you can freeze in hell. A more modern example is the history of the telecommunications companies which even after being broken up have now re-combined so that we in effect only have 3 domestic tel-comm providers, and they are discussing how to combine their resources. Further explain why such a system will guarantee that my views will at least be addressed at some level and not relegated a priori to a trash-heap because it goes against the market analysis of some bunch of bean-counters? Who do I go to for resolution of claims against these entities, the self-same entities? You call that justice, equality, or even representation? Explain why and how such a economic based system will guarantee my right to free speech or even to run a small business which I currently do when it is clear that I am in open competition with the very entities which provide me the resources to make the money? What is the economic motivation for the resource controlling entities to support my freedoms when it reduces their income? Explain how your system prevents economic black-balling? Another implication is that we will see more of the sort of business stategies implimented by PGP Inc. (for example) where they want a percentage of your income *without* accepting a percentage of the risk, economic tyrany is tyrany just the same. What recourse do I have if the monopolies which arise in such a system decide that the services or resources I need won't be provided? Am I then supposed to just calmly accept becoming some prole for some zaibatsu? What happens when those monopolies decide that if they work together they can further streamline the market, and my going to church or taking a vacation goes against those business requirements? It sounds like you are supporting Hirshleifer who says: "The mere fact of low income under anarchy... of itself provides no clear indication as to what is likely to happen next." [Personly, Hirshleifer is an idiot who apparently doesn't hang out on the wrong side of the tracks and therefore has no clue as to what motivates the poor or stupid.] Which in effect breaks down into one of two results for individuals (which all free market anarchists admit openly) who don't have sufficient income to buy their indipendance and their say: 1. they devote a great deal of effort to fighting to gain control over resources. or 2. they capitulate to some other party and turn over their resources for food and shelter. History would argue that people will accept neither of these as a solution to day-to-day living. Economists should stay out of politics. It's one of the reasons that at no point in either the Declaration of Indipendance or the Constitution that businesses are given rights are even given consideration except in regards of taxation of inter-state commerce. People should have seperation of government and religion and that includes the worship of wealth. > (perhaps old Iceland would be a suitable anarchy > to consider as a comparison). If it's so damn good how come it doesn't exist anymore? If it provided such a superior governmental system providing the maximum return on investment why did it go away? Why did they instead elect to go with a king? Futher, explain how such an anarchic system can be expanded without demonstrating the exact same sorts of scaling problems consensual democracies such as ancient Greek ran into? It's one thing to rule a few 10's of thousands of people who are related, share world-models and have limited resources and quite another to rule 4+ Billion people who speak hundreds if not thousands of languages and concommittent cultural beliefs? > Do you have a democracy in mind which > doesn't result in lots thought crimes and other "crimes" which are so > far removed from normal free market schelling points. It's just a > natural tendency of a democracy. Thought crimes and such are not a result of any political system but a result of the psychology of people. Please be so kind as to demonstrate (along with my previous questions I am still waiting on) how a political system effects the basic psychological development of the participants. Further, explain how the belief in the resolving power of money is any different than the resolving power of Buddha? You seem to be claiming that if we pray to the all mighty dollar all will be right with the world. > > > But they do share a characteristic: > > > distortions of free market in the form of voting for theft and > > > redistribution of other peoples money leading to annoying government > > > micro-management, and general do-gooder busy-body-ness, and the many > > > laws on thought crimes. > > > > Again, demostrate your assertion(s). > > > > Who? What? When? Where? Why? How? > > Who? What? Current democracices. When? Now. Why? Market > distortion. How? Politicians brokering legalised mass theft and > market distortion for game theoretic reasons. You seriously expect any reasonable person to be satisfied with such a side-step? And in case you hadn't realized it, the entire concept of free-market is a result of those same game theories. Are you claiming that such free market based systems will abandon game theory when it clearly provides insight into how those free markets operate? > > > Your constitution says you can own and carry > > > guns; your politicians and law enforcement increasingly say that you > > > can not. Your response to my saying that is that _I_ don't understand > > > the constitution? > > > > No, my responce is prove your assertions. > > You prove your assertion: are you saying there are no gun controls in The simply fact that one has a constitution that guarantees certain rights is *not* a guarantee that others won't find those rights threatening and want to take them away (see Hirshleifer's two alternatives above). And your assertion is that if we go to a free market anarchy then we no longer have to worry about anyone telling us what we can and can't do? Please be so kind as to demonstrate why a free market anarchy will prohibit monopolistic organizations who would be just as threatened by armed individuals as any other centralized organization? > > Explain to me why you believe these are valid views > > because they are a statement of readily observable reality? Where do I observe them? Give examples. Whose reality? Are you seriously claiming that there is one absolute reality? > > What you did say was that back in the old days people ran around > > killing those who bothered them. Which isn't true either. > > That bit was a statement of a belief that few people would be inclined > to invade someones privacy and attempt to impose sanctions for what > they viewed as thought crimes. It takes governments or religions to > do this kind of thing, individuals aren't likely to Governments and religions *ARE* people. There are times where I think you have said the stupidist thing possible and then you keep typing. Individuals are the ones who killed the Jews, put pepper spray in the eyes of demonstrators, and just about everything else that gets done. > > > The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling their > > > neighbours what they could think. > > > > Really? What was the law count say in 1865 versus 1965? 1897 v 1997? > > Demonstrate your point. > > I say: there were less laws in 1897 US than 1997 US. > > Tell me: do you refute that claim? I don't know, never looked at the numbers *AND* it isn't my job to refute it. *IT IS* your job to prove it since it is *YOUR* claim and apparently has some relevance to your thesis' validity. The number of laws at any given time is irrelevant and immaterial to my position (nice attempt at a straw man). It is plain stupidity to make claims and not have a clue as to the reality. I shure as hell won't be asking people to put their lives in my hands unless I could address such issues in a manner that they would feel comfortable with. Gut feelings are almost always wrong. The mere fact that you feel that we should take such claims at face value is a clear indication of what kind of worth you place in others. You believe yourself to be an angel apparently. Oh, and for the record. Studies of deaths during the 1800's indicate that the vast majority were accidental self-inflicted gunshot wounds, far more than the Indians or other 3rd parties inflicted combined. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

4 3

Re: Technology 'secures' gunfire [CNN]
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jonathan Wienke wrote: > At 09:06 PM 10/31/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >> Now police have an electronic witness that can provide similar > >> assistance: a device called SECURES that pinpoints the time and > >> location of gunshots. > In order for this system to be worth anything, it would have to be able to: ... > 3. Monitor conversations throughout the coverage area. A suspicious sound > preceded by a male voice saying "Give me your money, bitch" would be much > more interesting than one preceded by a revving engine. This would have > the added benefits of allowing LEO's to track fugitives via the sound of > their footsteps, their breathing, vehicle engine sounds, etc., as well as > gathering voiceprint data from crimes in progress. > > I think point 3 is the scariest. A properly designed system could do > voiceprint analysis of almost every word spoken in public, tie the > conversations to the identities of the speakers, and archive the time, > location, content and participants of every spoken conversation for long > periods of time in a database that could be searched by keyword, speaker > identity, time, and/or location. The following searches could be done: > > 1. "I want a list of everyone who uttered the words 'buy' and 'crack' in > the same sentence between 2100 and 0330 hours within 500 feet of 123 Maple > Drive between August 7 and December 5." > > 2. "I want a list of all participants in conversations with Citizen-Unit > 754-35-9710 which included the phrase 'BATF agent' in the last 6 months. > > 3. "I want a map of Citizen-Unit 754-35-9710's movements for the last 2 > weeks." ... Jonathan has hit on a point which illustrates the danger of the surveillance technologies that are _already_ in place, vis a vis, the Internet. Something lost in the euphoria over the citizen's radical new ability to access information: Yahoo Search--"Posts by _me_." is that the same technolgy, and more, is at the fingertips of the proverbial 4 Horsemen AND (now for the _really_ bad news) at the fingertips of "John Law, the Citizen's Friend." Sadly, "garbage in--garbage out" _has_ always, and _will_ always, result(ed) in such inanities as Drug Counselors being 'rated' at the same level as Drug Dealers when the computer spits out the results of a badly structured "search for the _bad_guys_." Naturally, when the police mistakenly kick in the door of a Drug Counselor, it is always a 'regretable tragedy' when they shoot holes in the ten year old boy in the hallway who is holding an over-ripe banana which 'looked like a weapon.' (Almost a true life example, told to me by a friend who left her career in law enforcement because she was still in possession of a conscience which was capable of recognizing that children killed by those who are 'just following orders' are just as dead as the children killed by those who are 'out of control.') {The person in question 'pulled' her shot at the last moment, upon realizing she was about to murder a child with a banana. Because the banana "could have been a weapon," an investigation was not required for an officer firing upon an unarmed citizen. I regard this lady as a wonderful example of someone who has held themself to a higher standard than their government regulators and their peers. What is a shame is that someone who _should_ be the type of person charged with protecting us had to leave the system because there is no future for those who choose sanity, logic and humanity over 'following orders.'} If you stop to consider Jonathan's examples of (paraphrased), "give me the names of every citizen in location 'A' at time 'B' who has used the word 'normal' in an email in the last ten years, etc., etc." in light of Internet search engine capabilities being extended to such technologies as 'citizen physical location monitoring', 'voice recognition', 'DNA pattern analysis' (e.g. heriditary potential for violence, etc.), then the future may be very scary, indeed. Think about this: "Ladies and gentleman of the jury, the person who is reading this post is the 'only' individual, out of over 20 million processed by the Never Wrong Criminal Identification Compter System, who is in the post reader's general location, today, has completed their high school education and has a family member who has committed murder in the last five generations." (What? You claim you are not the _only_ person in New York City, with a high school education. Nice try, pal, but the computer is never wrong.) "Although no murder has been committed yet, statistics show that someone in that area will be, within the next two days, so I ask that you return a verdict of 'Guilty of murder in the first degree' and we will pick up and execute the reader of this post as soon as a body turns up." ...in light of _this_: A citizen was found guilty of murder by a jury, based on the slim eyewitness testimony of a passerby who caught a fleeting glimpse of the murderer, despite testimony from over a dozen people that the defendant was, at the time of the murder, attending a wedding thousands of miles away. Some of those giving testimony did not even know the man prior to meeting him at the wedding, and were in no way related to the man, but the jury was still swayed by the prosecutor's claim that this wide variety of law-abiding, average citizens were lying to try and protect the defendant. Do you have a great-great-grandfather who committed murder? Then you are, by heridity, a potential murderer. It's in your blood! This is '10 points against' you. All of the kindness you have don in your life does not count in your favor, because any fool can see that it was done in an attempt to trick the jury. > The Big Brother potential of such a system should be obvious. What is > really scary is that such a system could be built mostly with currently > existing hardware, and at most a few man-years of software development. If > each node in the network performs its own speech to text conversion and > archiving, and coordinates with a central voiceprint ID server, (which > could also provide the sync signal that the nodes would use to > cross-reference between nodes to locate sounds) each node could consist of > a Pentium 200 with some specialized audio signal processing cards and 15-20 > GB of storage. The only really new thing required would be an .AVI-style > format for storing MPEG audio, a text transcript of said audio (which would > need to include keywords for gunshots, passing vehicles, and other events > of interest), and location coordinates (updated on a second to second > basis) which could be indexed for reasonably efficient searching. Of course, Jonathan is a raving lunatic for suggesting these outlandish possibilities, much like the mentally unstable people who history records as believing that one day people would be able to send electromagnetic waves through the atmosphere and have their images and voices appear on machines in distant places. Seriously, history has shown that any technology capable of being used for great evil _will_ be used for great evil. The reason that technology radically increases the ante in the game between good and evil is that if one 'evil' person is in control of technology that ten million 'good' people do not have access to, then the basic humanity or inhumanity of humankind, in general, is really not an important part of the equation which will determine the future. (I challenge all other cypherpunks to a fistfight, the only rule being that I can use an Uzi, and you can't.) Remember...when all is said and done, my dad was an optomist. George Orwelle Jr.

1 0

french cypherpunks
by Judith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi there, Are there any french cypherpunks or french speaking canadian cypherpunks on this list ? I have to discuss privacy on the net in french. To read some articles on this subject would be very helpfull to learn to use the right type of jargon: the dutch-french dictionary does not handle jargon of any type. Btw: did anybody scan their photo's of the HIP '97 (in this case near the cypherpunkerstent-site) yet? I couldn't find any. Merci, best regards, Judith

1 0

Re: Unlocking crypto-secrets Wired article
by Jean-Francois Avon 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From: Dwight Arthur <dwightarthur(a)mindspring.com> >To: "Dale R. Worley" <worley(a)ariadne.com> >CC: dcsb(a)ai.mit.edu >Subject: Re: Unlocking crypto-secrets Wired article > I have no inside knowledge but picture yourself > as a senator, really concerned about getting re-elected. Picture > yourself looking at video of the victims of some terrorist act somewhere > in the world, staggering out of some ruined building and expiring on > camera. Then picture yourself hearing that if you vote the wrong way and > this happens in the U.S. (or to U.S. citizens anywhere) your name will > be in the papers as the reason that law enforcement was unable to > prevent this. It's hard to argue. And alsom maybe Jim Bell's stuff... Does anybody have any knowledge or heard any rumors of Bell's essay circulating among political circles? Ciao jfa -- Jean-Francois Avon, Pierrefonds(Montreal) QC Canada DePompadour, Societe d'Importation Ltee Finest of Limoges porcelain and crystal JFA Technologies, R&D consultants physicists and engineers, LabView programing. PGP encryption keys at: http://w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon http://bs.mit.edu:8001/pks-toplev.html ID# C58ADD0D : 529645E8205A8A5E F87CC86FAEFEF891 ID# 5B51964D : 152ACCBCD4A481B0 254011193237822C

1 0

Re: cute.
by Mix 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Amad3us wrote: >Matthew Nuckolls says >> What's the point in distribuing your public key through the same >> channels as a signature? Kinda defeats the purpose. > >The purpose is to create a persistent nym. The signature, and public >key ensures that you know that this message is from the same person >as you were attempting to nit pick :-] It has been my experience that it is more fun to operate a persistent identity than to post unsigned and unverifiable messages. Providing the key is at least a convenience for people who don't have it already - it saved me a trip to the key server. >> I can't verify that the given public key is indeed yours, since >> you're anonymous. > >True. So it's only as good as the keys you might fetch from a >keyserver that you have no connection to in the web of trust. > >You aren't supposed to link it to my True Name. > >All that can be done is to get a signature from a timestamp server, >and a signature from Bill Stewart's nym key signing service. What would be really nice is if the mailing list machines time stamped messages. There was a discussion a little while ago suggesting that toad.com had been compromised by people who were sowing dissension by partially distributing certain messages. Had toad signed all of its messages, it would be possible to obtain evidence supporting this hypothesis without relying entirely on the word of people we may not know. Had somebody compromised toad, they would still have to correctly sign messages. Later it would have been possible to prove this had occurred by comparing messages and signatures. This would also prevent an attack where somebody forges mail from a cypherpunks list machine to flush out identities. If the attacker sends a unique message to every person, he or she will be able to break an identity if the message is replied to on the list. >This is important because it prevents someone else from generating more >keys with the same userID, such as happened with Tim May's blacknet key. >The only protection I have against that is the public record of my key >being posted to cypherpunks. The http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/ >archive helps as a public record of first publishing of a key with this >userID. I'm not sure a timestamp matters that much for "authenticating" your key. After all, you don't own "Amad3us", you own key 0x4D162BBE1. If another "Amad3us" shows up, what matters if their string of posts are worth reading, not whether they borrowed your handle. It would cause confusion, but since the cypherpunks are so good at slinging bits, we should be able to handle this. It might even have an advantage: reporters and secret police types will have a harder time dealing with the cypherpunks without adopting some of our technology and ideas and sharing them with others. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNFu/fZaWtjSmRH/5AQGSdAf8DdZj05c4/WS/V9YF/o1lZ9W7/5vGlTDf mvU8nFPNT4TB9eha7UW/Ub2xaUI4TneBrWrIwXTeEqo1slUbzmShneeUoUlKMEho +PlrA8NjQhh/QRwMXsVUp4vtoV3oDUbCTRLE8PWIikC7Rpo92UocujfFhsey3Ewu /SCA/TrkjVO8efeR4H6GOBnVWd/+4YigLPtZhP6QzlKjf3Soq5OJNfVlHA3ci+3a UgbM+IQ/OTTkXMVbya60veWrN6/Njo/66D0EyUuHB5/bUHkFIjnWaz1DSG8g0vJq XfFNOusz9Dkrhz0gearv/fbRb93GxXRejTK/Jo9sMJta8pWAm4d1Yg== =5Loi -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

1 0

Free Market Anarchy (Beck's Folly) - Fundamental flaw
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The fundamental flaw with the justification of a Free Market Anarchy and also the fundamental condemnation of Democracy is that of taxation. However, the theory of democracy does not in any way address the issues of taxation, only how laws are made and what the boundaries on those laws are. In fact, until about the first third of this century there was NO personal taxation in this country at the federal level. Clear prima facia , and to use Beck's verbage 'real', evidence that the assertion that personal taxation and democracy are irrevocably wedded. Ask yourself, why is it that no free market anarchist *ever* mentions commenality in humanity? Why do their have inherent and implicit in their systems a class structure? They would have you believe this is natural, it is not. Class structures are reflections of the beliefs of the people, not some fundamental law of nature. Furhermore, Free Market Anarchy does not address the issues of protection from abuse. It does not recognize in any manner any mechanism for redress of grievances unless you happen to be one of the few who controls the wealth. It further assumes that those who don't have wealth will willingly take this station in life as a given and simply work for those who do have wealth and accept without resentment that they will forever be denied any sort of opportunity to change their station in life except at the whim of the power brokers. It further does not in any way address issues of life, liberty, or pursuits of happines - only monetary wealth. It is clear that having wealth does not in any manner guarantee any sort of empathy for others in the holder. If anthing, history demonstrates that such 'lords of wealth' are pragmatic about collecting wealth to the point of predation. This argument from the specific to the general is fundamentaly flawed and the conclusion suffers because of it. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. How that power is obtained, by vote or specie, is irrelevant as clearly shown by history. Some hold that the majority of the populace suffer taxation at the point of a gun. This assertion is also false. There have historicaly been several political parties which have promised to eliminate personal taxation. In every case those parties could not control more than a truly minimal percentage of the vote. Yes, people say taxation is too high, they do not hold the assertion that taxes should be completely eliminated. Free Market Anarchies are doomed to the same sort of death, and if ever implimented the same sorts of abuse, as all other non-democratic systems. Also, recognize that those who support such systems have a set of commen character flaws. First, they can't differentiate the implimentation from the theory of political systems. They would have you believe that if a given implimentation of a system is flawed or broken than all systems of that ilk are then broken or flawed. Clearly history does not support such assertions. In short, they would throw the baby out with the bathwater. Secondly, these in general are the sorts of people who find glee when they see a polic officer run over in the street. Do you seriously believe that anyone this cold and uncarring would not hesitate for an instant in putting pepper spray in your eyes? Thirdly, they express a view which I call Theory X equality. In short, as long as they are the ones making the profit, the fact that you suffer for it, justly or not, is irrelevant and justified. In more prosaic words, the ends *always* justifies the means. An assertion that history also does not support. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

1 0

Free Market Anarchy (Beck's Folly) - Fundamental flaw (fwd) [correction]
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: Jim Choate <ravage(a)ssz.com> > Subject: Free Market Anarchy (Beck's Folly) - Fundamental flaw > Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 19:20:20 -0600 (CST) > The fundamental flaw with the justification of a Free Market Anarchy and > also the fundamental condemnation of Democracy is that of taxation. > > However, the theory of democracy does not in any way address the issues of > taxation, only how laws are made and what the boundaries on those laws are. > In fact, until about the first third of this century there was NO personal > taxation in this country at the federal level. Clear prima facia , and to use > Beck's verbage 'real', evidence that the assertion that personal taxation and > democracy are irrevocably wedded. ^ is false. > Ask yourself, why is it that no free > market anarchist *ever* mentions commenality in humanity? Why do their have > inherent and implicit in their systems a class structure? They would have > you believe this is natural, it is not. Class structures are reflections of > the beliefs of the people, not some fundamental law of nature. > > Furhermore, Free Market Anarchy does not address the issues of protection > from abuse. It does not recognize in any manner any mechanism for redress of > grievances unless you happen to be one of the few who controls the wealth. > It further assumes that those who don't have wealth will willingly take this > station in life as a given and simply work for those who do have wealth and > accept without resentment that they will forever be denied any sort of > opportunity to change their station in life except at the whim of the power > brokers. It further does not in any way address issues of life, liberty, or > pursuits of happines - only monetary wealth. It is clear that having wealth > does not in any manner guarantee any sort of empathy for others in the holder. > If anthing, history demonstrates that such 'lords of wealth' are pragmatic > about collecting wealth to the point of predation. > > This argument from the specific to the general is fundamentaly flawed and > the conclusion suffers because of it. > > Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. How that power is > obtained, by vote or specie, is irrelevant as clearly shown by history. > > Some hold that the majority of the populace suffer taxation at the point of > a gun. This assertion is also false. There have historicaly been several > political parties which have promised to eliminate personal taxation. In > every case those parties could not control more than a truly minimal > percentage of the vote. Yes, people say taxation is too high, they do not > hold the assertion that taxes should be completely eliminated. > > Free Market Anarchies are doomed to the same sort of death, and if ever > implimented the same sorts of abuse, as all other non-democratic systems. > > Also, recognize that those who support such systems have a set of commen > character flaws. First, they can't differentiate the implimentation from the > theory of political systems. They would have you believe that if a given > implimentation of a system is flawed or broken than all systems of that ilk > are then broken or flawed. Clearly history does not support such assertions. > In short, they would throw the baby out with the bathwater. Secondly, these > in general are the sorts of people who find glee when they see a polic > officer run over in the street. Do you seriously believe that anyone this > cold and uncarring would not hesitate for an instant in putting pepper spray > in your eyes? Thirdly, they express a view which I call Theory X equality. > In short, as long as they are the ones making the profit, the fact that you > suffer for it, justly or not, is irrelevant and justified. In more prosaic > words, the ends *always* justifies the means. An assertion that history also > does not support. > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > | | > | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | > | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | > | | > | -Alan Greenspan- | > | | > | _____ The Armadillo Group | > | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | > | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | > | .', |||| `/( e\ | > | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | > | ravage(a)ssz.com | > | 512-451-7087 | > |____________________________________________________________________| >

1 0

Re: FCPUNX:PGP Employee on MKR
by James A. Donald 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 05:02 PM 10/30/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote: > Even if you were to use CMR, it is dumb, dumb, dumb, to allow the > snoop key to remain after the message has passed the enforcer -- it > should strip it off on the way out. Unless, of course, the real intention of CMR is GMR. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd(a)echeque.com

1 0

Re: FCPUNX:DEA trying to subpoena book dealers
by James A. Donald 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 10:20 AM 10/30/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: > Makes it easier for cops to see that you're not a threat, > or that you are a threat. If your underwear's not Kevlar, > it's not contributing much to the process, and cops are > probably more embarassed about beating up naked people. Watch out for toilet plungers. --------------------------------------------------------------------- | We have the right to defend ourselves | http://www.jim.com/jamesd/ and our property, because of the kind | of animals that we are. True law | James A. Donald derives from this right, not from the | arbitrary power of the state. | jamesd(a)echeque.com

1 0

Hello, thought you should see this
by srvce＠micro-net.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

LEARN THE SECRET TO MAKING OVER $2750.00 A WEEK, PART-TIME WITH YOUR HOME COMPUTER! It's fun, it's rewarding, and it's easy. This is so simple, most children could do it! All you need is a computer and E-Mail address to begin making excellent money while relaxing in the comfort of your own home. All it takes is a couple hours a day, and you'll have more than $2750.00 arriving in your mailbox every week! Right now there are only a few people around the country who know how to do this. And these few people are having the greatest time of their lives while their computers make them a fortune. They don't want anyone else to know how they're making all this money, but we at Crown Industries have decided to let a few more people in on the secret. Even if you are happy with your current job, you can use this system in your spare time to create a huge extra income. And let us assure you this system is completely legal. We are so sure anyone can make a fortune with this unique system, that we will even let you try it out for 30 days! If you're not 100% satisfied, just send it back within 30 days for a full refund. Once you begin to see how easy it is to make money with your computer, you will wish you had received this letter a long time ago. Anyone can do this, and since very little of your time is required, you will have a lot more time to spend doing the things you have always wanted to do. So take the first step toward financial freedom and order this powerful money making system today! You'll be glad you did! This offer will only be available for a limited time! To insure you receive your copy, order today! To receive your copy of our incredible computer money making system, along with a full 30 day money back guarantee, send a check or money order for $14.95 payable to: Crown Industries 1630 North Main St. Suite# 310 Walnut Creek, CA 94596 Allow 4-6 days for delivery P.S. You simply must see this to believe it. Never in the history of America has it been possible to make this much money spending just a couple hours a day. We guarantee that anyone can make more than $2750.00 a week, part- time using our system and just one home computer or you get your money back!

1 0

No Subject
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

After seeing the intents of PGP Inc. with the release of their new PGP that breaks the old free versions, I have all but written them off as anything but the Enemy, and am waiting for a public reply on the list by Tim May to make it official. But now what? Please someone answer my questions about PGP - it appears that the 5.x versions are not compatible with the 2.x versions which came previous. Is this so? Also, the direction they seem to be heading is in providing more and more non-free GAKked product. But aren't the 2.x and 5.x versions freeware? If so, can't others - a group of individuals - take that source code and build off of that? Piss on these assholes and their licensing fees. It was inevitable, anyway. They are a corporation after all, and the corporations are not on "our" sides. I can see a scenario where government is impotent and destroyed within 10 years. What will remain and will be harder to eradicate are the corporations. I don't think we should rely on corporate software whenever possible, because it always comes with an ulterior motive. Is there an effort to maintain a version of PGP based on the free 2.x sources that is not affiliateed with the fuckwads at PGP Inc.? If not, is it high time some of us began such an effort?

6 5

LAPD reject surplus bayonets [CNN]
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > LAPD REJECTS, RETURNS SURPLUS BAYONETS > > Sheriff November 1, 1997 > Web posted at: 10:03 p.m. EST (0303 GMT) > > SACRAMENTO, California (AP) -- The Los Angeles Police Department has > decided to return the bayonets it has received from a U.S. military > surplus program.

1 0