December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Stego-empty hard drives... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:05:30 -0400 > From: Sunder <sunder(a)brainlink.com> > Subject: Re: Stego-empty hard drives... > What's this bullshit, eh? Just overwrite the BIOS roms in your machine to > return all zeros for the sectors you don't want to show them. Have some > special passphrase you have to type in while in the BIOS setup program to > deactivate this. Most newer notebooks have flash upgradeable ROMs anyway. What's this bullshit, eh? I wonder how you propose to answer the question: "Sir, exactly why are you typing that sentence into the computer at this time?" Now we have not only given them probably cause but clear evidence for a prior intent to commit a crime. Even if your hard drive is clean they're going to bust your ass. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Alone (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 18:38:16 -0400 > From: Robert Hettinga <rah(a)shipwright.com> > Subject: Alone > > "...it depends on how you define 'alone'.". > > Alone enough to get a blowjob? > That depends Bob, can you bend over that far? ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: CHALLENGE? Toto/signature attack w. unpublished public key
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This value is wrong: it has 3 bytes of 0's inserted and is therefore missing the last three bytes of the signature. s = 0x08F4D5CBC10063725B206F787EB7370BBD0C5B4854CE79A9007D1801AEAEE6E6 D2C68D7EDF877FECE1FA539D08BEC54BD152BA05113951E8A84CDECAD2CB8E7A C28BE916570BA7BB9C00C64DF57113C4AE81613BD351541523CD3A028FBF220E F7469BD4175302DCB5B6E886974877F28A2D301433AFFFE26081008BFF687B37 Here is the correct value, from the signed message. 08F4D5CBC10063725B206F787EB7370BBD0C5B4854CE79A97D1801AEAEE6E6D2 C68D7EDF877FECE1FA539D08BEC54BD152BA05113951E8A84CDECAD2CB8E7AC2 8BE916570BA7BB9CC64DF57113C4AE81613BD351541523CD3A028FBF220EF746 9BD4175302DCB5B6E886974877F28A2D301433AFFFE260818BFF687B37DE8167

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Re: Stego-empty hard drives... (fwd)
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Jim Choate wrote: > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 00:46:03 +0000 > > From: Michael Hohensee <mah248(a)is9.nyu.edu> > > Subject: Re: Stego-empty hard drives... (fwd) > > > I believe that the idea was to set it up so that BIOS defaults to > > HD-hiding mode. > > How do you propose to do this? Via a BIOS setting? By default. The machine boots. It is either told to accept a passphrase or is told nothing. If the latter, it boots normally, only with its HD-hiding code. If the former, it prompts, accepts a passphrase, and then boots normally, only with the HD-hiding code disabled. What I think you're asking is how the actual cryptography would be done. I wouldn't want to stick crypto code in the BIOS, or at least not the code which will be used all the time. I think a better way to do this is to have the BIOS boot up in HD-hiding mode all the time, and require user-mode software to disable HD-hiding mode and then deal with the cryptography. > > > When you're taking your laptop through customs, you do > > nothing while the machine boots up, the doctored BIOS does its thing, > > and everybody's happy. When you want to get at the stuff on the rest of > > the HD, you reboot and type in your passphrase. > > How do you propose to prompt the user for the correct time to type? You don't, at least not at first. If you hold down maybe the left and right shift keys, in combination with the left alt key while pressing the "R" key, it prompts "BIOS: ". You type your passphrase in. LILO (the LInux LOader) does this if you depress a shift key during boot. Obviously with LILO it's to specify kernel parameters, what OS to boot into, and things like that.

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Re: Stego-empty hard drives... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: 22 Sep 1998 02:15:42 -0000 > From: Anonymous <nobody(a)remailer.ch> > Subject: Re: Stego-empty hard drives... (fwd) > > How do you propose to do this? Via a BIOS setting? > > By default. The machine boots. It is either told to accept a passphrase or > is told nothing. If the latter, it boots normally, only with its HD-hiding > code. If the former, it prompts, accepts a passphrase, and then boots > normally, only with the HD-hiding code disabled. Understood. > What I think you're asking is how the actual cryptography would be done. I That aspect is trivial from the mod-the-BIOS perspective, let's assume for a moment that the crypto is in the ROM-burner... Specificaly I am asking: Given a BIOS which has been modified to allow the end-user to select between encrypted and non-encrypted operation, how is the end-user supposed to make this selection? So far I've seen two suggestions: 1. The BIOS is only 'sensitive' at particular points in the POST. 2. The BIOS has a user-accessible selection via some method to activate their selection. Both are workable, I'm looking for a more specific description of the methods. In the case of 1., is the marker going to be particular windows which are bounded by particular messages printed to the boot console? In the case of 2. is it going to be a particular 'magic keystroke' that enables some hidden option screen? It seems to me that both have obvious methods of attack if the only goal is to demonstrate to a legal standard that such capability exists. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Suit Claims Web Linking a Violation
by Lazlo Toth 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Mr. Bernstein's own site (http://www.garybernstein.com/) has, as far as I can tell, absolutely no external links. I don't know whether this is a recent modification in order not to undermine his case or it simply reflects Mr. Bernstein's view of how the web should be. It's hard to imagine him winning the case. (God help him if he does; that's a lot of angry netizens.) >From ABC News: >http://www.abcnews.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/websuit980921.html > > San Francisco Examiner > Scripps Howard News Service > > Copyright in Online Mediium > Suit Claims Web Linking a Violation > Sept. 21 > In a lawsuit that experts say threatens the freewheeling nature of the >World Wide Web, a photographer claims JC Penney Inc. should be held liable >because its Web site was one of three "links" that ultimately led to an >unauthorized display of his photo of movie star Elizabeth Taylor. > Celebrity photographer Gary Bernstein's complaint contends the >department store, which advertises Taylor's "Passion" perfume on its Web >site, violated his copyright even though its own site did not show his >photograph. > The suit appears to be the first to claim a copyright violation >resulted from multiple linking, the main way of moving about the World Wide >Web. A hearing on whether the suit should proceed past the initial phase is >set for today before U.S. District Judge Manuel Real in Los Angeles. >.... > According to the suit, JC Penney and Elizabeth Arden Co., the maker of >Passion, in November1997 promoted the perfume with an online chat on >America Online with Taylor, the perfume's spokeswoman. > Permission Not Granted > The chat site was linked to an Elizabeth Taylor Passion perfume page >at a separate Web site run by JC Penney. On this page, viewers could click >on a biography link that took them to another Web site run by Internet >Movie Database Ltd., which featured information on the movie star. > Once there, they could click on another link that took them to a Web >site run by the Swedish University Network, which included two photos of >Taylor that had been taken by Bernstein. One-the "Pink Lady"-showed Taylor >in a pink outfit. Another-"the lavender image"-showed her in a floral print >dress. > Bernstein filed suit in April, claiming that he licensed the Pink Lady >to Elizabeth Arden Co. to promote the perfume for a limited period that >expired several years ago. The lavender image appeared on the cover of a >photography magazine in 1986 and also was copyrighted, he said. > The suit said JC Penney, Arden and Internet Movie Database all >violated Bernstein's copyright because-through the links-they reproduced or >distributed the images on the Internet without his permission. > Weed Out Infringing Material > Moreover, anyone in the United States who found the photos through JC >Penney's Web site and downloaded them also infringed on the copyright, it >said. >.... >Copyright 1998 Scripps Howard News Service. All rights reserved. This >material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed." > >Entire article at: >http://www.abcnews.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/websuit980921.html

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Re: Stego-empty hard drives... (fwd)
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Jim Choate wrote: > Specificaly I am asking: > > Given a BIOS which has been modified to allow the end-user to select between > encrypted and non-encrypted operation, how is the end-user supposed to > make this selection? > > So far I've seen two suggestions: > > 1. The BIOS is only 'sensitive' at particular points in the POST. > > 2. The BIOS has a user-accessible selection via some method to > activate their selection. There's a third option, but it may be a bit more difficult (or not). I'm not really a hardware person, and it's probably obvious. 3. Use a "crypto-dongle" similar to what someone here (Mr. Geiger, I believe) has come up with. You plug it into the parallel port or somewhere else, and the encrypted data is useless once the dongle is removed. I would think that if we plugged this into the bus we could have the BIOS remap the IDE routines to some EPROM in that dongle. The cryptography could take place there too. If the spooks are on to you, you trash the dongle. This paradigm breaks down when we get into the operating system, though. Linux, for instance, apparently disposes of the BIOS and uses its own IDE driver. I assume that Windows 98 does the same thing. Linux is open source, so modifications could be made, but Windows would be harder. Can someone more knowledgeable comment on this hardware dongle idea as applied to this problem?

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RE: ArcotSign (was Re: Does security depend on hardware?)
by Lucky Green 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Nick, I am somewhat puzzled by your response. Do you assert that a software based solution, executed on a general purpose CPU under a general purpose OS, can afford the same protection of whatever the secret in question may be as a hardware token, such as a smartcard? A hardware token lacking the very API to extract the secret through software based attacks? If so, could you please share with us the revolutionary breakthrough in computer science that negates the effect of decompilers and runtime debuggers on Arcot's software? Furthermore, how do you consolidate the claim on Arcot's website that "ArcotSignTM [...] offers [hardware solution] tamper resistance in software" with the statement by Arcot's very own cryptographic advisor, Bruce Schneier, that "Of course. It's less secure than hardware solutions". Perhaps I have worked in this industry for too long to fully adjust to the novel genius displayed in "virtual one-time pads", "virtual smartcards", and "virtual security". Thanks, --Lucky Green <shamrock(a)netcom.com> PGP 5.x encrypted email preferred > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-cryptography(a)c2.net [mailto:owner-cryptography@c2.net]On > Behalf Of Nick Szabo > Sent: Monday, September 21, 1998 18:31 > To: rdl(a)MIT.EDU; scott(a)loftesness.com > Cc: cryptography(a)c2.net; libtech(a)lists.best.com > Subject: Re: ArcotSign (was Re: Does security depend on hardware?) > > > > I have consulted at both DigiCash and Arcot. I am still > under nondisclosure to Arcot, so I can't answer any > questions about this that go beyond the publicly available > information. Arcot has recently made available on their public > web site "Software Smart Cards via Cryptographc Camouflage", at > http://www.arcot.com/camo2.html. At the end of > this paper is referenced Rivest's "Chaffing and Winnowing" > paper. These give a good overview of how such a technology > can work, and the scope of its application. > > > Nick Szabo > szabo(a)best.com > http://www.best.com/~szabo/ >

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IN The News
by billxxxjbt＠itt.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dear Frend, If you received this message in error, please accept my apologies. This is the letter you've been reading about in the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the internet, a major nightly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of the program described below to see if it really can make people money. If you saw it, you know that their conclusion was that, while most people did not make the $50,000 discussed in the plan, most people were able to double and triple their money at the very least, in a short amount of time. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are absolutely no laws prohibiting the participation in the program. This has helped to show people that this is a simple, harmless and fun way to make some extra money at home. This is for real. The result of this show has been truly remarkable. So many people are participating that those involved are doing much better than ever before. Since everyone makes more as more people try it out, its been very exciting to be a part of lately. You will understand once you experience it. You may have thought this is a chain letter or a pyramid scheme (it's not). You may have thought this is illegal (it's not). You may have just decided its not worth your time (it is). Whatever the reason you decided not to try it in the past, I ask you to reconsider. After reading the simple instructions below, you will be ready to start. I think that once you begin to see your first orders in the mail, you will be surprised to learn just how many people are participating in this program. I have been involved in the program for a long time but I have never seen so many people trying this out as I have recently. This is good news because the more people that do it, the more everyone benefits. If you ever thought of giving this a shot, now's the time to do it. There's very little to lose, but alot to gain. Besides making alittle extra cash each week, its fun to wonder how much money will be in your mailbox each day. I wish all of you could know the feeling I get each day after work as I go to my p.o. box. Its exhilerating! Just read over the letter below. It will make starting a breeze. Hope to hear from you soon. --------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------- My advice to you is that you save this letter (or print it) for a time. The idea is very simple, but it definitely takes a few times reading it over before it sinks in. I am confident that if you read over this letter briefly once now, and once again whenever you get the chance, you will begin to see the potential involved. Most people do not respond to this letter immediately. Take as much time as you need to let the idea fly around in your head alittle. This is not a pyramid scheme. Many people equate this program with illegal schemes that involve nothing but the transferring of cash. The difference between a legitimate multi-level marketing program and a pyramid scheme is that in a pyramid, there is no money being exchanged for a legitimate product. The law states this clearly. Anyone who claims this program is illegal is misinformed in the area of retail law. In this program, the product is a financial report that you can simply e-mail to someone after they order it from you and send cash to you through the mail. While the report can be sent easily to yout customers with the click of one button through e-mail, it is nonetheless a legitamate product which people choose to send you $5.00 to purchase from you. The other legal issue that most people ask about in programs such as this one is the issue of tax legality. The law is clear that all income must be reported to the government each year. When customers send you cash, it is your responsibility to keep track of how much you are making and report this at the end of the year. Following is a simple explanation of the system and simple instructions for you to follow to get started right away: 1) you save this letter onto your computer in case you need it later 2) you send $5.00 to each of the 4 people listed below to order a report 3) each of those 4 people will e-mail you 1 report immediately 4) you save these 4 reports onto your computer 5) you go back to this original letter and move everyone's name down 1 level, removing the person in the 4th position and putting your name and address in the 1st position 6) you have this newly altered letter e-mailed to tens of thousands of people (usually people pay a bulk e-mailer to do this for them to start) 7) when people receive this letter you sent them, they will see your name and address as the 1st report slot and will send you a $5.00 order for it 8) when people order these reports, from you, you immediately e-mail it to them (they will give you their e-mail address along with their $5.00) Thats it folks......its that simple......the $5 is yours! You e-mail them the report by "copying" it out of the saved e-mail report you received from the person on the list in this letter, and "pasting" it into a new e-mail letter and sending it off....no problem. After you get the hang of it, you can copy many letters into new e-mails very fast and send off many orders quickly. The reason it works is that everyone involved has an incentive to help everyone else succeed. The people you order the reports from will e-mail the reports to you immediately because they will profit when you profit. Each of the 4 people you order from also will be eager to answer any questions you may have and help you in any way they can so that you can start mailing copies of this letter out with their names on it along with yours. I mentioned above that success in this system can be guaranteed based on simple statistical facts. When you send out tens of thousands of advertisements (or pay someone to mail them out for you), you can be absolutely positively assured that a certain percentage will respond and send you $5.00 for the report. The next fact is that the larger the mailing you have sent out, the more responses you will get. Please understand this about this program: It only takes an extremely small percentage of people to respond to your ad in order for you to make a profit. This is because your advertisement (with your address or P.O. box on it) will be sent to such incredibly large amounts of people. (A bulk e-mailer can send your letter out to thousands of people per hour.) OVERVIEW OF OUR ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM: Basically, this is what we do: We sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi- level business online (with your computer). Look at multi-million companies such as New Vision (a vitamin supplier). We use the exact same method of multi-level selling they use. The only difference is that our product is a financial report you can easily e-mail to someone, rather than costly vitamins. The product in this program is a series of four businesses and financial reports. Each $5.00 order you receive by regular mail will include the e-mail address of the sender. To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer. THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours! It really is THAT simple! Think about it.......... FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY The profits are worth it. So go for it. Remember the 4 points and we'll see you at the top. ******* I N S T R U C T I O N S ******* This is what you must do: 1................ Save this letter onto your computer 2................ Order all 4 reports listed and numbered from the list below. (For each report send $5.00 and your e-mail address on a piece of paper to each person listed. When you order, make sure you print your e-mail address clearly, and also be sure to request each SPECIFIC report. You will need all four reports, because you will be saving them onto your computer and reselling them.) (You will receive the reports a few days later by e-mail. Save them onto your computer) 3................ Now you have 4 financial reports saved on your computer. These are legitimate products that people will want to buy. You are ready to start advertising your product to tens of thousands of potential customers. 4................ Take this letter and move everyone's name and address down 1 position. The person in the 4th position gets erased. Put your own name (make up a company name) and address (could be a home or PO box) in position 1. At this point you have 2 options. If you decide you want to advertise yourself, you need to obtain mailing lists and send this newly altered letter to as many people as you can to get people to order the report from you for $5. This method can be time consuming and costly. The second option is to pay a bulk e-mailer to mail out your letter for you. They can send out your letter to tens of thousands of people for a fraction of the cost of the above method. This is the method we recommend and is by far the simplest and cheapest way to go. When you use a bulk e-mailer, all you need to do is give them a copy of the original letter with the address you want your $5 orders to go to and they will do the rest. If you are able to find a bulk e-mailer who is already involved with the program, they won't even need the original letter since they will already have it. There are many bulk e-mailers out there who will send out your letter for you. You can find them by doing a search of the word "bulk e-mailer" on the internet. There are many excellent companies out there who will mail for you, but you still must be a little wary. We have found that some companies don't send them out in a productive manner (w/out using fresh addresses or attaching other messages to yours) and since there is no sure way to know exactly their methods, you're left wondering. The best of all scenarios is to have someone who is also involved in this program mail out your letters for you. There are many private bulk e-mailers out there who send out this very letter with their names on the list because they know the potential involved. There is a good chance that one of the people you will be ordering your report from will be able to bulk e-mail out your letter for you. When you order the report from the people on the list in this letter, they will e-mail you a report---if they bulk e-mail, they will probably include an offer to send your letters out for you. There is a simple reason why it is best to have someone involved in the program bulk e-mail out your letters for you. As mentioned before, it is difficult to verify that a company is sending out your letter in the most profitable way. If the person sending out the letter is also involved in the program, they will understand the program and, best of all, they will do everything possible to see you get as many responses as possible because when you profit they will profit as well since they are on the list as well. This gives the person an incentive to take great care in sending out your mail since they have alot to gain from it as well as you. Other bulk e-mailing companies will not have this same incentive. ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- REQUIRED REPORTS ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME*** Following is the list of people you will send $5 to: (Remember to include your e-mail address on the paper concealing the 5 dollars) When they e-mail the report to you, save them onto your computer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: RB Enterprises P.O.Box 2341 Falls Church VA 22042 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: API P.O.Box 44275 Eden Praire.MN 55344 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: PCC P.O.Box 3535 Margate, NJ 08402 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- REPORT #4 "Multi Level Marketing Intelligence Report" ORDER REPORT #4 From: AlaLink P.O. Box 311907 Enterprise AL 36331-1907 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Here's the fun part: Take a look at what is called the "multiplier effect" in marketing: Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes. Assume you advertise your letter until 10 people respond and send you $5.00. Also assume that those 10 people also advertise until they get 10 people to order and send them $5.00. Assume this continues for everyone in your downline and observe the following results: * 10 people order report #1 from you and send you $5.00 5 * 10 = $50 * each of those 10 people advertise until 10 people order report #1 from them (since their mailing will have your name as #2, 100 people will also send you $5 each to order report #2) 5 * 100= $500 * each of those 500 people advertise until 10 people order report #1 from them (1000 people order report #3 from you and send you $5) 5 * 1000= $5,000 * each of those 1000 people advertise until 10 people order report #1 from them (10,000 people order report #4 from you and send you $5) 5 * 10,000= $50,000 $50,000 + $5,000 + $500 + $50 Total = $55,550 A bulk e-mailer can send your letter out to thousands of people in one night. The above scenario holds true if only 10 people out of those thousands respond. This program is a study in statistics. A certain percentage WILL respond and send you $5. There is no guarante that you will make $50,000 each time, but its nice just to have some help with the rent or to have a few bills taken care of each month. This program is fun to be a part of. We hope to hear from you soon!"

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Mail System Error - Returned Mail
by Mail Administrator 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason: The following destination addresses were unknown (please check the addresses and re-mail the message): SMTP <rinus(a)nox.nl> Please reply to Postmaster(a)Iguanodon.big-orange.net if you feel this message to be in error. Reporting-MTA: dns; Iguanodon.big-orange.net Received-From-MTA: dns; [165.87.194.252] [165.87.194.252] Arrival-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:02:49 +0200 To: rinus(a)nox.nl Subject: zonnebril From: Lefty Cyberslasher <cypherpunks(a)toad.com> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:00:45 +0500 hobbies=Hobbies are Star Trek, computers and surfing the internet. age=35 years old adres=Irfan Mansoor Ali 110 Hasanabad Block "e" North Nazimabad Karachi 74700 Pakistan react=Dont u give away free Oil of Olayz? :)Take Care and Send me my glasses fast

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Mail System Error - Returned Mail
by Mail Administrator 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This Message was undeliverable due to the following reason: The following destination addresses were unknown (please check the addresses and re-mail the message): SMTP <rinus(a)nox.nl> Please reply to Postmaster(a)Iguanodon.big-orange.net if you feel this message to be in error. Reporting-MTA: dns; Iguanodon.big-orange.net Received-From-MTA: dns; [165.87.194.252] [165.87.194.252] Arrival-Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:11:50 +0200 To: rinus(a)nox.nl Subject: zonnebril From: Lefty Cyberslasher <cypherpunks(a)toad.com> Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:10:03 +0500 hobbies=Hobbies are Star Trek, computers and surfing the internet. age=35 years old adres=Irfan Mansoor Ali 110 Hasanabad Block "e" North Nazimabad Karachi 74700 Pakistan react=Dont u give away free Oil of Olayz? :)Take Care and Send me my glasses fast

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RE: atheism (was: RE: Democracy... (fwd)) (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: "Kurt Buff" <kurtbuff(a)halcyon.com> > Subject: RE: atheism (was: RE: Democracy... (fwd)) (fwd) > Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:00:03 -0700 > I (as a militant atheist) merely say that if you can define your God, I can > probably prove he doesn't exist. Unless, of course, your definition is so > broad as to have no meaning in the first place. Ok, I'll take you up on it. Pantheism - the belief that everything is divine, that God is not seperate but totaly identified with the cosmos, and that God does not possess personality or transcendence. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Stego-empty hard drives... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 23:37:06 -0400 > From: Lazlo Toth <lazlototh(a)hempseed.com> > Subject: Re: Stego-empty hard drives... (fwd) > >How do you propose to prompt the user for the correct time to type? > > Pressing an obscure key combination during bootup to trigger the password > prompt should do the trick. And just exactly how do you propose to spread this technology commercialy without alerting at least some members of the constabulary of its existance? Now if we are looking for a spin-loop in a POST that isn't there in a normal BIOS then I would say simply use sig-analysis on the machine during POST. You've got two options on labeling the BIOS. Either pick a ID that isn't a legitimate BIOS id or else scam a legitimate version number. In either case the police will have listings of the legitimate BIOS versions from the maker. The actual sig-analysis could probably be done with a standard AM radio as a technology demonstration. Since a spin-loop in the POST is going to sound much more consistent than the memory checks and hardware inits that take place. Now on a commercial basis what I'd do is get the BIOS manufacturers to sell me a copy of each of their legitimate BIOS'es and then create a library of signal envelopes (similar to the library of ship sounds subs carry) and it would be a trivial feat to build a detector that does a diff on the signal. If it doesn't match they yank you out of line and ask you some tough questions while a guy with some hardware savy, a BIOS listing, and a logic analyzer builds a case against you. No, I suspect you'll pull this off a few times and then they'll catch on, assuming the NSA or DIA doesn't give them a jump start. My guess is they already know how to do this sort of stuff and considering the budget being spent on neutron scanners, gas sniffers, etc. the lifetime for this technology won't be very long. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Stego-empty hard drives... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: 22 Sep 1998 03:11:01 -0000 > From: Anonymous <nobody(a)remailer.ch> > Subject: Re: Stego-empty hard drives... (fwd) > There's a third option, but it may be a bit more difficult (or not). I'm > not really a hardware person, and it's probably obvious. > > 3. Use a "crypto-dongle" similar to what someone here (Mr. Geiger, I > believe) has come up with. You plug it into the parallel port or > somewhere else, and the encrypted data is useless once the dongle > is removed. I would think that if we plugged this into the bus we > could have the BIOS remap the IDE routines to some EPROM in that > dongle. The cryptography could take place there too. If the spooks > are on to you, you trash the dongle. So you're proposal is not only to put the crypto in the BIOS but a set of hardware device drivers to drive this port during boot but won't interfere with regular OS device drivers? > This paradigm breaks down when we get into the operating system, though. > Linux, for instance, apparently disposes of the BIOS and uses its own IDE > driver. I assume that Windows 98 does the same thing. Linux is open > source, so modifications could be made, but Windows would be harder. That was an additional issue that I was going to bring up. I suspect that in both cases it would be feasible to do, though you'd need to use a special driver in Linux type OS'es to shadow the BIOS driver back into the memory map. The real issue with me about this whole scheme is the distribution mechanism. It is just too shakey and porous not to allow LEA's to know about it. If they can get a copy themselves then they have a perfect mechanism to build a virus-scanner style of program to look for the appropriate footprint. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: atheism (was: RE: Democracy... (fwd)) (fwd)
by Fred C. Moulton 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In a recent message Jim Choate wrote: >However, yourself, pjm, & Mr. Smith are claiming that a belief that >something doesn't exist isn't a belief is simply a tricky play on semantics. >A belief in a negative is still a belief irrespective of how many people >believe it. Might doesn't make right (or logical). Mr. Choate please spend as much time working on reading comprehension as you do on logic. If you read my message you will see that I have not stated my view on the proper definition of atheism, I have not aligned myself with pjm or George Smith nor have I aligned myself against them. I did provide two quotations from scholarly sources that used definitions similar to that provided by pjm. I also provided a quotation that there several definitions of the term in usage and the various definitions each have their supporters and their opponents. My point was the definition I quoted are well established in the scholarly literature and demonstrate that pjm was not trying to introduce some new and unusual definition into the discussion. Also based on the portion of your message I quote above, it appears that you might have misunderstood the quotation I included from Mr. Smith's book. I am sorry that both space and copyright issues do not allow the entire book to be sent to you, but I do suggest that you read the entire discussion in the book if you are having difficulty with the short passage quoted previously. Regards Fred

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Re: ArcotSign (was Re: Does security depend on hardware?)
by Greg Broiles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Mon, 21 Sep 1998, Nick Szabo wrote: > I have consulted at both DigiCash and Arcot. I am still > under nondisclosure to Arcot, so I can't answer any > questions about this that go beyond the publicly available > information. Arcot has recently made available on their public > web site "Software Smart Cards via Cryptographc Camouflage", at > http://www.arcot.com/camo2.html. At the end of > this paper is referenced Rivest's "Chaffing and Winnowing" > paper. These give a good overview of how such a technology > can work, and the scope of its application. I'm certainly not a cryptographer, but I'm somewhat at a loss in trying to understand the purpose of using public-key (or asymmetric key) cryptography within a policy/technology system which won't allow the use of the strengths of asymmetric key crypto. As I understand the paper you reference above, to implement this system the public key must be kept confidential, and signed documents must also be kept confidential, or the system of the security as a whole is at risk. With those constraints, why bother with the overhead (computationally/technically/legally) of asymmetric key crypto at all? It seems like much of the security in the system described above comes from the server/other party's ability to thwart brute-force attacks by detecting and responding to multiple failed attempts at authentication; that seems like a very good thing, but not really a strength or a weakness of the protocol itself, but an additional practice/protocol which is useful in many contexts. Is it really necessary/useful to call the scheme "software smart cards"? If it were called "An improved system for user authentication", I don't think it would make people nearly so suspicious. From my perspective, one of the advantages of smart card technology is that I can carry my authentication material with me; a system which puts it on my hard disk is less attractive. Floppies are portable, but not durable. I didn't understand the relationship between this scheme and Rivest's chaffing and winnowing which you note was cited as a reference in the SSC paper - would you (or someone else) mind explaining the connection? The closest I can get is thinking that there's a parallel between trying to guess which PIN in the SSC system is valid and which isn't, and the "winnowing" part of the Rivest protocol; but that doesn't seem like an especially meaningful or illuminating relationship. It looks like maybe a footnote was dropped, which would've tied the Rivest paper to a particular passage in the paper. -- Greg Broiles gbroiles(a)netbox.com

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Re: ArcotSign (was Re: Does security depend on hardware?)
by Colin Plumb 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Doug, I'd just like to thank you for replying. Even without looking at your description, the fact that you are willing to talk to doubters and admit the limitations of your technique make me a lot more comfortable believing that you have something. You don't fit into either of the two standard types of snake-oil salesmen: The "I can't tell you because it's secret" sort, and the "it's totally unbreakable, cures world hunger and disposes of nuclear waste" sort. Not that people still don't wonder, but I thought I'd temper the technical grilling I see heating up with some appreciation for the fact that you've already managed a better impression than 95% of the crypto wannabes out there. -- -Colin

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CHALLENGE response
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQEMAzJEMpEAAAED/0jftmc14q6/r/pGe61N+QymMfQlUdrMNWSl9n9wnst1BGft /GztVfzwS5QDPc2vAvCJjeYFBj60BbJpILMC6rGH7pnc/GFcQjQDUJzHfGHASkDl 2jvDbzG8f7I5oM6NAC5thtjmMoe9FasHMW+lQ3B3IFNSFgIULM5WpAclQcU1A/0S K/k9FEU/SX93bC3SqTwwdaW9bvksN6Tqs8YSmVcRCoCAQQrTB9i0I+1y86gA9DnC UR0EuvalZ54+g/+4G0TOqLVoeSXYhyktqwrIFmwDyK3RPEU6OkwxzlBALNvEKzKB SsdTm7J6O+jg56yEI3YyyBJM6N+zKvmm7DGB8I2+IbQKVG90bywgdG9vP4kAlQMF EDYHKcPOVqQHJUHFNQEB7RID/0H14HGr6lB8bqWCxoZfoZ97oHFEURrYVxOGb5MP ZOOEKCk5d/Q/9d0D0imSZRrV6EQRsiuhA9d0LQy0DuLQC3/NguKFK0Z3fY9gT8/q xV9JJmmoYTjSEDke0RfexfvNDuOa9aISVxndwYGkkYlUcsZBmOeo1OKPdhWCLbnI CsB7 =cutG -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Interested readers may want to verify that the key above does give a valid signature when applied to the message below. (It will be necessary to remove any existing key with keyid 0x2541C535 before this key can be added to the keyring.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNgcq+c5WpAclQcU1AQHnZQP+NrThyaPmy8BDw21geFB3B1s59QJJ4Ycs i1yqu9p6NZfb6qD2pF8AnOSOUMA3KCs98fKMJU9S9TN9eTk5DRbIvXHHSdhMRhuw qDlmcpy4HggT9yHK0vjOTm6UUR/xkvt0WCheAQEe9ZeshFyPa5BAJ7Sqy2dcI1Xv X3DzB5pn2yk= =SmV7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- "Contrary to one famous philosopher, you're saying the medium is not the message," Judge Thomas Nelson said, alluding to the media theorist Marshall McLuhan. http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/120997encrypt-bernstein.html Bullshit! The bits and bytes of email encryption are a clear message that I wish to exercise my right to speak freely, without those who wish to do me harm invading my privacy. The death of strong encryption on the InterNet will be the global death of free speech on the InterNet. Accordingly, I feel it is necessary to make a stand and declare that I stand ready and willing to fight to the death against anyone who takes it upon themselves to try to imprison me behind an ElectroMagnetic Curtain. This includes the Ninth Distric Court judges, if they come to the conclusion that the government that they represent needs to electronically imprison their citizens 'for their own safety.' The problem: Criminals with a simple encryption program can scramble their data beyond even the government's ability to read it. http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/zdnn/1208/261695.html Fuck the lame LEA pricks who whine about not being able to stop someone bringing in a planeload of drugs without being able to invade the privacy of every person on the face of the earth. Am I supposed to believe that I have knowledge of when and where major drug shipments are taking place, simply by virtue of hanging out as a musician, yet the LEA's are incapable of finding out the same information by being competent in their profession? Barf City... [I will shortly provide information for any LEA which wishes to prosecute me for my coming 'physical' death threat, on how to hunt me down like the filthy dog that I am.] "Why are you saying that the fact that [encryption] is functional takes it out of the First Amendment context?" Myron Bright, one of the judges, asked the Justice Department attorney, who was still in mid-sentence. He answered that the regulations were not aimed at suppressing speech, but only at the physical capacity of encryption to thwart government intelligence gathering. The Spanish language has the same "physical capacity." So does (:>), (;[), and {;-|). Likewise, BTW, FWIW, FYI, and my own personal favorite, YMMV (You Make Me Vomit? --or-- Your Mileage May Vary?). <-- Ambidextrous encryption. An-cay e-way pect-exay ig-pay atin-lay usts-bay of ildren-chay? Whispering also has the "physical capacity" to "thwart government intelligence gathering." When does the bullshit stop? When do we stop making the use of the Spanish language over the InterNet illegal? When do we stop making whispering, pig-latin, anagrams and acronyms illegal? When do we stop saying that our government is such a piece of crap that it is a danger to let its citizens communicate freely, in private, and share their private thoughts with one another? At one point Fletcher called the government's case "puzzling." http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,17114,00.html Only because her mom taught her that it was unladylike to say "Bullshit!" In arguments Monday, a Justice Department lawyer, Scott McIntosh, said the government's intent was to preserve the ability of intelligence agencies to eavesdrop on foreign governments and citizens. http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/120997encrypt-bernstein.html Let's see if I have this right... The U.S. government needs to destroy the right to free speech and right to privacy of its own citizens in order to infringe upon the human rights of the governments and citizens of other countries? Countries which already have strong encryption? Countries like Red China, which is currently engaged in encryption research with an American company who got permission to export much more diverse encryption material (after making a huge campaign donation to the Whitehouse) than Professor Bernstein will ever likely share with others? Apologies to Judge Fletcher, but that's not "puzzling." That's the same-old-same-old Bullshit! OFFICIAL 'PHYSICAL' DEATH THREAT!!! The pen is mightier than the sword. Thus, I prefer to wage my 'war to the death' against those who would stomp on my basic human rights *"in the interests of National Security"* with my electronic pen, on the InterNet, using encryption when I have reason to fear persecution by Facist, Nazi motherfuckers. [* ~~ TruthMonger Vernacular Translation ~~ "so that the government can maintain its authority over the citizens by use of force and violation of human rights, rather than going to all of the trouble of acting in a manner that will garner the citizens' respect."] I will continue to express my thoughts through the words I send electronically over the InterNet, both publically and privately. I will fight to the bandwidth death against anyone who wants to deny me my right to express my opinions and access the opinions of those who also wish to express their own opinions and share their true thoughts with their fellow humans. If the ElectronicMagnetic Curtain slams down around me, then I will have no choice but to continue my current fight in MeatSpace. And I am not alone... I will share the same 'DEATH THREAT!!!' with Judges Fletcher, Nelson and Bright that I have shared with the President and a host of Congressional and Senatorial representatives: "You can fuck some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you are going to end up in a body bag or a pine box before you manage to fuck all of the people all of the time." Am *I* going to whack you out? Maybe... I would prefer just dumping some tea in Boston Harbor, if that will get my message across in MeatSpace, but if it won't, then I guess I will have to take stronger action. There are undoubtedly a plethora of LEA's ready and willing to prosecute and imprison me for agreeing with Patrick Henry, who said, "Give me liberty, or give me death." The irony, of course, is that I do not pose a great danger to anyone but myself as long as I continue to have my human rights and my liberty unthreatened. The chances of me actually getting off of my fat butt and going out into the real world to whack out the enemies of freedom are probably pretty small (unless I run out of cigarettes and beer, and wouldn't have to make an extra trip). I fully understand that this does not lessen the potential of any LEA who gets a wild hair up their butt to throw a mountain of taxpayer resources into prosecuting me and imprisoning me for their own professional/political gain. However, if you are performing actions so outrageously against basic human rights and freedoms as to get me off of my lazy ass, then I am the least of your problems, because there undoubtedly are millions of people more functional than myself (who get out of the house and go further than the liquor store) who are less willing than myself to put up with increasingly heavy chains placed around their hands and feet 'in the interests of national security.' Feel free to have the Federales break down my door and imprison me for pointing out the obvious. After all, I fit the profile of a domestic terrorist--I quote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and I speak out against increasingly big government. But remember...it's the quiet ones you've got to watch... If you force everyone to 'be quiet', then you've got a world of trouble on your hands. Sincerly, John Gilmore <gnu(a)toad.com> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ p.s. NOTICE TO LEA AGENTS IN NEED OF A CAREER BOOST! Yes, I'm just a troublemaking asshole, trying to get John <spit> Gilmore <fart> in trouble. However, if you want to go to the trouble of tracking me down, I will give you some hints, since it seems likely that anyone who has trouble finding a ton of cocaine at an airport might not be competent in CyberSpace, either. You might want to check with the Webmasters at the sites quoted above to see who has accessed their web sites this morning. The anonymous remailer I will be using is an open secret to CypherPunks around the world as a really bad attempt at disguising my true MeatSpace identity. This alone ought to be enough for some aggressive young LEA and/or federal prosecutor to earn themself some brownie-points, since I am a sorry enough son-of-a-bitch that they would not have much trouble convicting me in front of a jury of 'their' peers, assuming that they can make certain that I am not tried by a jury of my own peers. Bonus Points: I can also be tied into Jim Bell's Worldwide Conspiracy to assassinate government authorities, through my implementation of an Assassination Bot. (I am willing to 'rat out' Jim for two bottles of Scotch. If he is willing to rat _me_ out for less, then I guess it's just my hard luck, eh? <--that's another hint!) p.p.s. You can also charge me with use of 'conventional' encryption in the commission of a crime. Must be your lucky fucking day, eh? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNI24Hs5WpAclQcU1AQFaggP8CPTVy8EAY3JbIG94frc3C70MW0hUznmp fRgBrq7m5tLGjX7fh3/s4fpTnQi+xUvRUroFETlR6KhM3srSy456wovpFlcLp7uc xk31cRPEroFhO9NRVBUjzToCj78iDvdGm9QXUwLctbbohpdId/KKLTAUM6//4mCB i/9oezfegWc= =4/6E -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Stego-empty hard drives... (fwd)
by Neels Kriek 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I have bee using Encrypted magic Folders for a while now. it gives you the option of encrypting all files in a specific folder. it can also do file name scrambling and even hide all the files in a directory from the OS. It activates through a hot key combination. You work on the files you want and when you exit emf the whole dir is hidden again. probably not the most secure system but it will certainly fool most them if you disable booting from a stiffy/floppy.

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BXA Crypto Export Rule
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

BXA issued today an interim rule on encryption exports and easing of limits for select institutions announced in the summer: http://jya.com/bxa092298.txt (83K) Quote: SUMMARY: This interim rule amends the Export Administration Regulations (EAR) by clarifying controls on the export and reexport of encryption items (EI) controlled for ``EI'' reasons on the Commerce Control List. This rule incorporates public comments on an interim rule published in the Federal Register on December 30, 1996, and implements new licensing policies for general purpose non-recoverable non-voice encryption commodities or software of any key length for distribution to banks and financial institutions in specified countries.

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problems with pgp 5i for solaris
by Steve Mynott 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I am having problems with PGP 5i for solaris. I am aware of http://www.pgpi.com/bugs/bugs50i.shtml I have tried setting HAVE64 to 0 and the *** src/lib/pgp/include/pgpUsuals.h~ Sat Aug 9 22:44:58 1997 --- src/lib/pgp/include/pgpUsuals.h Tue Aug 12 16:57:16 1997 patch but neither solve my problem. I get "Received signal 10." after entering my pass phrase when trying to decrypt a message encoded to my PK. Has anyone got it to work? -- pgp 1024/D9C69DF9 1997/10/14 steve mynott <steve(a)tightrope.demon.co.uk>

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one-time pad
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Where can I get the one-time pad in perl? The one I have I can't figure out how to input data into it: #!/bin/perl vec($_,0,1); open(P,shift); read(P,$p,length),print $_^$p while<> Can anyone help?

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MEDIA RELEASE! Washington DC office opened
by Marita N�sman-Repo 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The following press release for your information. Regards Marita Nasman-Repo ############################################# Data Fellows Opens Regional Sales Office in Washington, D.C. Helsinki, Finland, September 21, 1998 -- Data Fellows, the leading developer of data security solutions, announces the opening of a regional sales office in Washington, D.C. The new office is located to better serve Data Fellows current and future clients in the federal government and in the Eastern portion of the United States. Data Fellows is no stranger to the Washington area. The companys client base includes the Federal Reserve Bank, the Internal Revenue Service, the Department of Defense, NASA, and other government agencies. The new office is the first of several planned regional offices designed to further enhance the companys relations with its North American customer base. Technology industry veteran Joe Arcade has been appointed the sales director for the new Washington office. Mr Arcade has been involved in Washington-area technology for the past 15 years and has held executive positions with companies including Unisys, British Telecom, Sun Microsystems, Cabletron and Litton. Mr. Arcade has a Bachelors degree from Youngstown State University and a Masters degree from Catholic University. With offices in San Jose, CA, and Helsinki, Finland, privately-owned Data Fellows is the leading technology provider of data security solutions for computer networks and desktop computers. The company's F-Secure data security product line includes F-Secure Workstation Suite, consisting of malicious code detection and removal, unobtrusive file and network encryption, and personal firewall functionality, all integrated into a policy-based management architecture; F-Secure Anti-Virus, with multiple scanning engines (including F-PROT and AVP), is the most comprehensive, real-time virus scanning and protection system for all Windows platforms; F-Secure VPN+ provides a software-based, IPSEC-compliant Virtual Private Network solution for large corporate networks as well as remote and small office networks; F-Secure FileCrypto is the first and only product to integrate strong real-time encryption directly into the Windows file system; FSecure SSH provides secure remote login, terminal, and other connections over unsecured networks. It is the most widely used secure remote administration tool; and F-Secure NameSurfer is the solution for remote Internet and Intranet DNS administration. Its easy-to-use WWW user interface automates and simplifies DNS administration. The company's products are relied on by many of the world's largest companies, governments, universities and institutions. The products are available worldwide in more than 100 countries through Data Fellows and its business partners, and the company has experienced 100% annual growth during each of the past three years. For more information, contact Data Fellows, 675 North First Street, 8th floor, San Jose, CA 95112; tel 408-938-6700; fax 408-938-6701; http://www.DataFellows.com or info(a)DataFellows.com. ###################################### -- Marita.Nasman-Repo(a)DataFellows.com, World-Wide Web http://www.DataFellows.com

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RE: atheism (was: RE: Democracy... (fwd)) (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:06:26 +0200 (MEST) > From: Heinz-Juergen Keller <hjk(a)dip.de> > Subject: RE: atheism (was: RE: Democracy... (fwd)) (fwd) > > We're doing Boolean Algebra here not Algebra, the rules for transitory > > functions are different. > A natural language is *not* boolean. > It is a Peano-Algebra.(with some more restrictions) > [R.Montague: Universal Grammar] Irrelevant, we're analysing the truth or falsity of a statement, that is Boolean Algebra. ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Peano Algebra and it's base theorem
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Peano Algebra's are based on the following: If a unary predicate P holds for 0, and if P holds, together with an element x, also for it's succesor x', then P holds for all natural numbers. The question under consideration is NOT an attempt to describe a language in a Sigma structure/algebra/model. We are NOT trying to analyze the language but rather a specific mathematical statement made IN that language. They are not the same problem and hence Peano Algebra's do NOT apply. Nice straw man, I had to drag a math book out to refresh what a Peano Algebra was (don't think I've ever had to deal with one). ____________________________________________________________________ The seeker is a finder. Ancient Persian Proverb The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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