December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

PRZ Announcement
by Phillip R. Zimmermann 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 In light of the great amount of discussion currently taking place in regard to the benefits and disadvantages of my latest bid for money, power, fame and the respect of the corporate computer industry, I would like to reassure the cynics that my committment to privacy has never been stronger. However, I have reassessed my views of who truly has a right to control access to privacy and have come to the conclusion that privacy is too important an issue to be left in the hands of the individual, with the obvious potential for misuse. After a review of the astounding success of the PGP Public Key Server's use, in conjunction with our PGP Privy Products, in ensuring proper key management and control of forgery, spoofing and misuse of Public/Private Key technology, it has become clear that individual privacy can best be ensured under the watchful eye of those with the resources to provide proper surveillance of those who have earned the right to privacy, in order to prevent abuse of that right. I would like to thank my other brother, Phil (Hallam-Baker), for helping me to see that unsupervised use of the right to privacy could result in individuals misusing that right to publish extremely embarassing pictures of me in compromising positions which could affect my credibility. As a matter of fact, it was PH-B who suggested my new signature line. PRZ ~~~ "I don't put them in the PGPtray...I just turn on the GAK." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNE/sV17MfpC8gEO7EQKaCQCePKAo033KBg/O/T9Nz5IrGLIcCZcAn0L4 JDtdMovT9RZKA4PXwJTNdvpr =Xvzl - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBNE/svUlfPVhsMJvfEQI2zgCg8aQ15PEU4eNItEprsLQHd2259fIAn2a1 wwKyecnoEQuCElB3ZtJBZQBz =53jb -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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wombat
by apache＠bear.apana.org.au 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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David Kahn on National Encryption Policy
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This was published in the October 22 Congressional Record as part of a statement by Senator Moynihan on the retirement of NSA Deputy Director William Crowell: [From Newsday, Oct. 6, 1997] National Security Official Retires--Helped Refocus Agency's Aims (By David Kahn) The National Security Agency has said goodbye to its retiring deputy director, who largely brought the super- secret spy organization into its public, post-Cold War posture. William P. Crowell was the force behind the establishment of the National Cryptologic Museum, which exhibits what had been some of the nation's deepest secrets; the revelation of the VENONA project, which broke Soviet spy codes early in the Cold War; and the National Encryption Policy, which seeks to balance personal privacy with national security. Succeeding Crowell will be Barbara McNamara, who, like Crowell, is a career employee of the agency, which breaks foreign codes and makes American Codes for the United States government. McNamara is the second female deputy director of the agency. The first, Ann Z. Caracristi, who served from 1980 to 1982, is the sister of the late Newsday photographer Jimmy Caracristi. More than 500 present and past members of the agency attended Crowell's recent retirement ceremony at its glossy, triple-fenced headquarters at Fort Meade, Md. They applauded as he was presented with awards for his intelligence and executive services and with a folded American flag that had flow over the agency. They laughed as a picture, claimed to be his retirement portrait, was unveiled: It was a photograph of Crowell, notorious for his love of motorcycles, astride his fancy bike. During his acceptance speech, Crowell choked up when he thanked his wife, Judy, a former agency employee and fellow motorcyclist, for her help. The agency director, Air Force Lt. Gen. Kenneth Minihan, recited some of the administrative landmarks of Crowell's career. Crowell, 58, a native of Louisiana, began in New York City in 1962 as an agency recruiter. In 1969, when he sought an assignment to operations, he became instead an executive assistant to the then-director. He eventually got to operations, where he rose to be chief of W group, whose function remains secret, and then chief of A group, which focused on the then-Soviet Union. After a year in private industry, he rose through other posts to the deputy directorship on Feb. 2, 1994. Among his organizational accomplishments were conceiving a crisis action center and linking the agency with other producers of intelligence to improve information exchange. His more public initiatives included the museum and the VENONA disclosures, which sought to maintain public support for the agency after the disappearance of the Soviet Union. The National Encryption Policy seeks to enable the agency to read the messages of terrorists and international criminals who use computer-based, unbreakable ciphers while enabling individuals to use good cryptosecurity to preserve such rights as security on the Internet. ---------- See Moynihan's statement: http://jya.com/nsa-crowell.htm

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Important
by fp7e＠fp7e30.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

*** MAKE $34,000 in 14 WEEKS *** The main reason for this letter is to convince you that this system is honest, lawful, extremely profitable, and is a way to get a huge amount of money in a short time. I was approached several times before I checked this out. I joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. Initially I let no one in the organization know that I was an attorney and, to my astonishment, I received $34,470.00 in the first 14 weeks, with money still coming in. Sincerely yours, Biron Stary, Esquire ***"Please Read This Twice!"*** Dear friend, *** Print This Now For Future Reference *** The following income opportunity is one you may be interested in taking a look at. It can be started with VERY LITTLE investment ($15) and the income return potential is TREMENDOUS!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ You are about to make at least $34,000 in less than 90 days! Please read the enclosed program...THEN READ IT AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ This is a MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON. PRINT this letter, read the program... THEN READ IT AGAIN !!! You are looking at the most profitable and unique program you may ever see. It has demonstrated and proven ability to generate large sums of money. This program is showing fantastic appeal with a huge and ever growing population which needs additional income. This is a legitimate LEGAL money-making opportunity. It does not require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best of all, you never have to leave the house, except to get the mail. If you believe that some day you will get that lucky break that you have been waiting for, THIS IS IT! Simply follow the easy instructions, and your dream will come true! This ORIGINAL electronic multi-level marketing program works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME! Thousands of people have used this program to raise capital to start their own business, pay off debts, buy homes, cars, etc., even retire! This is your chance, so don't pass it up. OVERVIEW OF THIS EXTRAORDINARY ELECTRONIC MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM Basically, this is what we do: We sell thousands of people a product for $5.00 that costs us next to nothing to produce and e-mail. As with all multi-level businesses, we build our business by recruiting new partners and selling our products. Every state in the U.S. allows you to recruit new multi- level business online (with your computer). The product in this program is a series of four reports. Each order will include the e-mail address of the sender. To fill each order, you simply e-mail the product to the buyer. No postage or time wasted. THAT'S IT!...the $5.00 is yours! This is the GREATEST, EASIEST electronic multi-level marketing business anywhere! There are no more costs after you have purchased the reports. FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY! Let's face it, the profits are worth it! THEY'RE TREMENDOUS!!! So go for it. Remember the 4 points and we'll see YOU at the top! ******* I N S T R U C T I O N S ******* This is what you MUST do: 1. Order the reports listed and numbered from the list below. For each report send $5.00 CASH, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and YOUR RETURN POSTAL ADDRESS (in case of a problem) to each person listed. When you order, make sure you request each SPECIFIC report. You will need all three reports, because you will be saving them on your computer and reselling them. 2. IMPORTANT--DO NOT alter the names, or their sequence other than instructed in this program! Or you will not profit the way you should. Replace the name and address under REPORT #1 with yours, moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2. Move the name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3. Bump off the name in the 3rd position, they already are have made thousands, it's your turn now! When doing this, please make certain you copy everyone's name and address ACCURATELY!!! Also, DO NOT move the Report/Product positions! 3. Take this entire program text, including the corrected names list, and save it on your computer. 4. Now you're ready to start a massive advertising campaign on the WORLDWIDE WEB! Advertising on the WEB is very, very inexpensive, but there are HUNDREDS of FREE places to advertise also. Another avenue which you could use is e-mail mailing lists. You can buy these lists for under $20/1,000 addresses. START YOUR AD CAMPAIGN AS SOON AS YOU CAN. You should pass this opportunity on to all you friends, family, business partners, everyone! The more people that participate, the more CASH you make!!! ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!! ********REQUIRED REPORTS******** ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME*** ALWAYS SEND $5 CASH (Concealed) FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER. ALWAYS SEND FIRST CLASS OR PRIORITY MAIL AND PROVIDE YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR QUICK DELIVERY. ____________________________________________________ REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: NEW AGE MARKETING PO Box 60231 King of Prussia, PA 19406 ________________________________________ REPORT #2 "USE YOUR COMPUTER AS A MONEY MAKING MACHINE" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: C.S. Marketing PO Box 1125 Valley Forge, PA 19482 ___________________________________________________ REPORT #3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: ek@NYL 1 Radnor Corp. Cntr, Suite 100 Radnor, PA 19087 ____________________________________________________ HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PLAN WILL MAKE YOU $MONEY$ Let's say you decide to start small just to see how it goes. Assume your goal is to get 10 people to participate on your first level. (Placing a lot of FREE ads on the internet could EASILY get a better response.) Also assume that everyone else in YOUR BUILDING ORGANIZATION gets ONLY 10 members. Follow this example for the STAGGERING results below. 1st level -- your 10 members with $5 ($5 x 10) $50 2nd level -- 10 members from those 10 ($5 x 100) $500 3rd level -- 10 members from those 100 ($5 x 1,000) $5,000 THIS TOTALS------------$5,550 Remember friends, this is assuming that the people who participate only recruit 10 people each. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone got 20 people to participate! Some people get 100's of recruits! THINK ABOUT IT! By the way, your cost to participate in this is practically nothing. You obviously already have an internet connection and email is FREE!!! REPORT#3 will show you the best methods for finding people who will buy your reports, and it will how to reach thousands of hot prospects! REMEMBER: Approx. 150,000 new people get online monthly! ORDER YOUR REPORTS NOW!!! *******TIPS FOR SUCCESS******* THIS IS YOUR BUSINESS! Send for the three reports IMMEDIATELY, so you will have them when the orders start coming in because: When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the requested product/report to comply with the U.S. Postal & Lottery Laws, Title 18,Sections 1302 and 1341 or Title 18, Section 3005 in the U.S. Code, also Code of Federal Regs. vol. 16, Sections 255 and 436, which state that "a product or service must be exchanged for money received." * ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON THE ORDERS YOU RECEIVE. * Be patient and persistent with this program. If you follow the instructions exactly the results WILL undoubtedly be SUCCE$$! * ABOVE ALL, HAVE FAITH IN YOURSELF THAT YOU CAN SUCCEED! *******YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINE******* The check point that guarantees your success is simply this: You MUST receive 20 orders for REPORT #1! THIS IS A MUST! If you don't within two weeks, advertise more and send out more programs until you do. Then, a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2. If you don't, advertise more and send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100, or more orders for REPORT #2, YOU CAN RELAX, because you will be on your way to the BANK! -OR- You can DOUBLE your efforts! REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list you are in front of a DIFFERENT report, so you can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by what report people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY!!! NOTE: IF YOU NEED HELP with starting a business, registering a business name, how income tax is handled, etc., contact your local office of the Small Business Administration (a Federal agency) for free help and answers to questions. Also, the Internal Revenue Service offers free help via telephone and free seminars about business taxes. ******* T E S T I M O N I A L S ******* This program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY! Especially the rule of not trying to place your name in a different position, it won't work,you'll lose a lot of money. I'm living proof that it works. It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money, with little cost to you. If you do choose to participate, follow the program exactly, and you'll be on your way to financial security. If you are a fellow Christian and are in financial trouble like I was, consider this a sign. I DID! Good Luck & God Bless You, Sincerely, Minister Chris Johnson P.S. Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,500) looks like piled up on the kitchen table?...IT'S AWESOME! My name is Frank. My wife Doris and I live in Bel-Air, MD. I am a cost accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received the program I grumbled to Doris about receiving "junk mail"! I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I "knew" it wouldn't work. Doris totally ignored my supposed intelligence and jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old "I told you so" on her when the thing didn't work... well, the laugh was on me! Within two weeks she had received over 50 responses. Within 45 days she had received over $147,200 in $5 bills! I was stunned. I was sure that I had it all figured and that it wouldn't work...I AM a believer now. I have joined Doris in her "little" hobby. I did have seven more years until retirement, but I think of the "rat race" andit's not for me...We owe it all to MLM. Frank T., Bel-Air, MD I just want to pass along my best wishes and encouragement to you. Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come in. I even checked with the U.S. Post Office to verify that the plan was legal. It definitely is! IT WORKS!!! Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC This is the only realistic money-making offer I've ever received. I participated because this plan truly makes sense. I was surprised when the $5.00 bills started filling my mail box. By the time it tapered off I had received over 8,000 orders with over $40,000 in cash. Dozens of people have sent warm personal notes too, sharing the news of their good fortunes! It's been WONDERFUL. Carl Winslow Tulsa, OK This plan works like GANG-BUSTERS!! So far I have had 9,735 total orders OVER $48,000!!! I hope I have sparked your own excitement, if you follow the program exactly, you could have the same success I have, if not better. Your success is right around the corner, but you must do a little work. Good Luck! G. Bank Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back. Boy I was surprised when I found my medium-size post office box crammed with orders. After that it got so over-loaded that I had to start picking up my mail at the window. I'll make more money this year than any 10 years of my life before. The nice thing about this deal is that it doesn't matter where in the U.S. the people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return. Mary Rockland, Lansing, MI I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed another program...11 months passed then it came...I didn't delete this one!...I made $41,000 on the first try!! D. Wilburn, Muncie, IN This is my third time to participate in this plan. We have quit our jobs, and quite soon we will buy a home on the beach and live off the interest on our money. The only way on earth that this plan will work for you is if you do it. For your sake, and for your family's sake don't pass up this golden opportunity. Remember, when you order your four reports, SEND CASH. Checks have to clear the bank and create too many delays. Good luck and happy spending! Charles Fairchild, Spokane, WA Typically when I look at a money-making deal I want to know if the company is strong, will it be here when it's time for my big pay off. In this crazy thing there is no company intervention for management to blow it. Just people like me ordering directly from the source! Interesting...I had a couple of projects I'd been trying to fund to no avail so I thought; Why not give it a try? Well 2 1/2 weeks later the orders started coming in. One project is funded and I'm sure the other will be soon! Marilynn St. Claire, Logan, UT ==================================================== We could be printing YOUR testimonial next!!! ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED DOWN THE ROAD TO YOUR FINANCIAL FREEDOM!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ IMPORTANT NOTE: If you don't get a report, please email webmaster(a)crescentstreet.com and inform us, we monitor to make sure you get your reports quickly. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ To be removed from our list please visit http://www.iemmc.org

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Senator Lott on Encryption
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Excerpt below of statement on encryption policy by Senate Majority Leader Lott published in the October 21 Congressional Record. Full statement at: http://jya.com/lott-crypto.htm (12K) ---------- Senator Lott: During the past month, the FBI has attempted to change the debate by proposing a series of new mandatory controls on the domestic sale and use of encryption products. Let me be clear. There are currently no restrictions on the rights of Americans to use encryption to protect their personal financial or medical records or their private e-mail messages. There have never been domestic limitations, and similarly, American businesses have always been free to buy and use the strongest possible encryption to protect sensitive information from being stolen or changed. But now, the FBI proposes to change all that. The FBI wants to require that any company that produces or offers encryption security products or services guarantee immediate access to plain text information without the knowledge of the user. Their proposal would subject software companies and telecommunications providers to prison sentences for failure to guarantee immediate access to all information on the desktop computers of all Americans. That would move us into an entirely new world of surveillance, a very intrusive surveillance, where every communication by every individual can be accessed by the FBI. Where is probable cause? Why has the FBI assumed that all Americans are going to be involved in criminal activities? Where is the Constitution? And how would this proposal possibly help the FBI? According to a forthcoming book by the M.I.T. Press, of the tens of thousands of cases handled annually by the FBI, only a handful have involved encryption of any type, and even fewer involved encryption of computer data. Let's face it--despite the movies, the FBI solves its cases with good old- fashioned police work, questioning potential witnesses, gathering material evidence, and using electronic bugging or putting microphones on informants. Restricting encryption technology in the U.S. would not be very helpful to the FBI. The FBI proposal won't work. I have talked with experts in the world of software and cryptography, who have explained that the technology which would provide compliance with the FBI standard simply does not exist. The FBI proposal would force a large unfunded mandate on our high technology firms, at a time when there is no practical way to accomplish that mandate. Rather than solve problems in our export policy, this FBI proposal would create a whole new body of law and regulations restricting our domestic market. This and similar proposals would also have a serious impact on our foreign market. Overseas businesses and governments believe that the U.S. might use its keys to computer encryption systems to spy on their businesses and politicians. Most U.S. software and hardware manufacturers believe this is bad for business and that nobody will trust the security of U.S. encryption products if this current policy continues. In fact, this proposal appears to violate the European Union's data-privacy laws, and the European Commission is expected to reject it this week. So, the FBI proposal would: Invade our privacy; be of minimal use to the FBI; would require nonexistent technology; would create new administrative burdens; and would seriously damage our foreign markets. This is quite a list. Mr. President, the FBI proposal is simply wrong. I have learned that even the administration does not support this new FBI proposal. So why does the FBI believe it must now subject all Americans to more and more surveillance? This independent action by the FBI has created confusion and mixed signals which are troublesome for the Senate as it works on this legislation. Perhaps the FBI and the Justice Department need to focus immediately on a coordinated encryption position. Mr. President, I congratulate the members of the House Commerce Committee for rejecting this FBI approach by a vote margin of more than 2 to 1. -----

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Re: US Senator Lott Criticizes FBI Crypto Plans (fwd)
by John Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Senator Lott says: >Where is probable cause? Why has the FBI assumed that all Americans are >going to be involved in criminal activities? Where is the Constitution? Bravo, Senator Lott! It is a pleasure to hear a Senator speak out against the FBI's plans. Plus he is basing it on the Constitution as well as practical problems. So many Senators become mouthpieces for the FBI. What a pleasant difference. Senator Lott's words deserve to be widely heard. Let us remember that not everyone in the government is in Louis Freeh's pocket. With people like Senator Lott we can still be confident that Louis Freeh's Big Brother plans can be stopped. "John ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Elliptic Curve Cryptography
by Nobuki Nakatuji 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Is Elliptic Curve Cryptography a better encryption system than RSA ? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

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Re: ADMIN: lost messages (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: Jeff Barber <jeffb(a)issl.atl.hp.com> > Subject: Re: ADMIN: lost messages (fwd) > Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:21:27 -0400 (EDT) > I understand this rationale. It isn't a rationale, its reality. This view is not moderated by political or ideological beliefs but the harsh reality that things don't work the right way all the time. > But that doesn't explain what's > happening to the missing messages. Your implied base assumption is that the reason is always the same. I seriously doubt it. > Is there a flaw in the > distributor/reflector duplicate-filtering algorithms? The process is so simple it ain't funny. I believe, but won't guarantee it, that we are all using a procmail script to remove duplicate messages, and that is all the 'distributor/reflector duplicate-filter algorithms' there is. Unless one of the other repeaters is doing something more complicated they haven't said. In short, you are under the misconception that this is something special, it ain't. SSZ receives traffic from the other remailers at cpunks(a)ssz.com, just a normal user account, which has the procmail script filtering duplicates. It then forwards to cypherpunks(a)ssz.com, which is the majordomo managed list. cpunks(a)ssz.com as well as the rest of the subscribers get their traffic from here. If the procmail breaks then I get a mail loop at SSZ and my box fills up and lets me know pretty quickly something is broke because majordomo recognizes this through the X-loop: and kills them in that case as well as sending postmaster (me) all kinds of nifty hints. The other sites in this case still filter duplicates so things still don't run away. >From my end to add another node is to put it in the procmail script for outbound and have them add cpunks to their outbound list. > Or is this > a problem of certain messages being introduced into a node whose > product does not get propagated to all subscribers of all the other > nodes? Sounds good to me...<shrug> > Or are you saying that if ssz (say) goes down for a few > minutes it forgets about any mail it has queued up for its > counterparts at cyberpass and algebra (et al.)? No, SSZ has full inbound and outbound traffic queing for up to 4 days or the hard drive fills up here and at my ISP. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________| ps The ISDN was apparently moved to a new pair. It seems rock solid at this point...time will tell.

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CDR Operators & interaction...
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, I have received a couple of pieces of mail that concern me. The content seems to indicate that people have one or both of two basic misconceptions about the CDR: - The operators do not communicate between ourselves unless one of us begins to recieve duplicates or other indications of problems at another site. Outside of that we simply don't communicate. - I am NOT in any way the moderator, central clearing house, or in any other manner concerned with the operation of the 'network' of remailers. I operarate SSZ as a home-based business and the CDR is motivated by my personal interest in the various issues as well as the fact that it costs nothing extra for me to carry. The remailer network was initialy instituted by Igor and myself in order to keep the Cypherpunks mailing list alive after the toad.com announcement that the mailing list was going away due to the various issue related to the moderation experiment. The entire point was to create a system such that it was simple and could not be compromised by any single operator. Furthermore, if you or anyone you know is interested in joining the CDR as a remailer node, archive site, mail-news gateway, etc. then send a message to the list requesting the various operators for feeds. SSZ has a standing invitation to anyone who desires to have a full-time participant. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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Did you taken part in a key crack?
by Trei Family 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I'm giving a presentation at the RSA Data Security Conference in January, 1998. The title is "Key Cracking for fun and Profit: The Year in Review". The main topic will be the activity spawned by the RSA Secret Key Challenges, though I'll include other brute-force and factoring efforts, in 1997 or before. If you have taken part in a key search, and/or have any thoughts on the topic you'd like to share, I hope you'll send them to me at trei(a)ziplink.net. I'm particularly interested in finding out about some of the less-known efforts - for example, the DES effort rumored to have taken place at SGI, and the early, abortive RC5/56 effort at a New York site. Stories, anecdotes, and issues raised by the efforts are all welcomed. Responses will be kept confidential if desired. Thanks, Peter Trei trei(a)ziplink.net DISCLAIMER: The above are my own views, should not be misconstrued to represent those of my employer.

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Automated Links Trade
by web-promotions＠nevwest.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Attention Fellow Webmasters: THE ULTIMATE TECHNOLOGY IS HERE!!!!!!!!!!! Do you trade links? Yes Do you hate trading links and soliciting links trades? Yes Does it produce good traffic? Yes http://www.adultsitelinks.com Automated Links Trade Well, we've created a program, after 100s of programming and designing hours that will AUTOMATICALLY trade links with other adult sites signed up to ASL Net (Adult Site Links Network) in a matter of seconds. Better yet, you need not add the links to your links page, because your links page is AUTOMATICALLY generated by our program with your style specifications in your links page template. This program is very slick. It isn't a TOP ?? Anything, there is no bullshit traffic, the system is designed to find any cheaters automatically with programs that run every evening. We've tried to think of everything to produce more traffic for you. This is simply a way to trade links without soliciting links trades. You still have a links page, it still has your sites look, it still trades links with sites in your hits/day traffic category......the only difference is you do all your links trades FOREVER one time by signing up. How much for this service? NOTHING its FREE This is a beta launch, but we've done heavy internal testing and everything is flawless as of yet. Don't delay, stop wasting precious time on tedious link trade solicitations and dead links......let our software do it for you for FREE and gain a ton of traffic. Don't try to cheat us, if you do your site, name and e-mail address will be sent to a sponsor list already very long warning them not to except your program. (Sponsors if you want on this list, please e-mail me and I'll add you to this list) People this is revolution and you don't want to miss out on it. Sign up below, gain traffic, lose headaches!! Its that easy........ ADULT SITE LINKS NETWORK :: ASL-Net Click below to learn more and sign up now, its instantaneous. http://www.adultsitelinks.com <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This message was sent by Adult Web Promotions with the intent of reaching it's Adult Webmaster Audience. The Advertiser in this email does not maintain the mailing list that you are list on. If you would like to be removed from future mailings, please type the word REMOVE in the subject line and reply back to the sender of this email. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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NSA Job Offer
by William J. Clinton 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dear Randall I saw your post on the cypherpunks list debunking the forgery of my good friend Phill Zimmerman. As you are no doubt aware my Deputy Director of the NSA retired recently and I've decided that Barbie is no longer suitable following certain uncomplimentary remarks she made after a fireside shagging^H^H^H^Hchat we had last night. I am therefore looking for a supersluth to fill this challenging position. If you would be interested in taking the bit between your teeth, so to speak, please email me and we'll do lunch. -- Bill C. "The next person who mentions my penis gets an ICBM up their ass"

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Spoofing
by semprini＠theschool.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I don't think I'm out of line here in saying that all this spoofing of other users is a bit childish. I'm sure there are better things one could find to do with one's time. (Possibly work on cracking RSA's 128- bit key?) --Dylan

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Request for expert opinion and Feedback
by Joubin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hello all, I am involved in a project which aims at the creation of a free and portable Java(tm) based object operating system. A basic functional requirement for this new OS is to provide /fast and effective/ strong cryptographic support at the OS level. The basic structure of the system is a layered architecture, with the lowest layer consisting of a platform specific (non-portable) kernel supporting an embedded JVM (again in C/ASM) and a set of Java(tm) interfaces to this 'virtual platform'. The OS proper will sit on top of this and will be 100% Java (tm). The issue: As you may know, SMI has and will deliver a set of 'security' packages as a standard component of JDK. This uses RSA technology. Basic and general 'interfaces' to encapsulate constructs such as Key, Provider, Cypher, etc. are also defined. A few people in the project group feel that many different groups and entities out there will provide (portable) Public Key encryption packages (implemented in Java(tm)) that can be used by the users of the OS. They argue against embedding computational support at the Kernel (non-portable) layer as wasted effort. Others (& myself included) feel that 'effective' also means efficiency of execution. Specially so if such functionality is to be used to encypher 'streams' and such (if that is possible). Your expert advice: a) How do you feel about 'where' the computational support should be implemented ? b) Assuming answer to (a) to be "At the kernel level and in C/ASM", is it possible to achieve a fine-grain modularity in terms of fairly generic algorithms and computations which can then be combined in conjunction to support a variety of encryption strategies ? c) Is there any benefit to implementing the random number generation system in the Kernel? Your input is greatly appreciated. If you feel there are other considerations to be made, please let me know. Thank you. Joubin p.s. Java(tm) and related items are the tightly guarded property of Sun Microsystems Inc. __________________________________ member, alpha zero LLC joubin(a)inch.com NoVA __________________________________

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Re: Spoofing
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

semprini(a)theschool.com wrote: > > I don't think I'm out of line here in saying that all this spoofing of > other users is a bit childish. I'm sure there are better > things one could find to do with one's time. (Possibly work on > cracking RSA's 128- bit key?) > > --Dylan I already cracked it. The message is: "Sorry, but we ran out of cash."

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Have some fun
by suzy1＠aol.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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spoofing as performance art
by Zooko Journeyman 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tim C. May allegedly typed something like: > > There's something about the Cypherpunks list that causes some people to > decide it would be a kewl act of performance art to disrupt it, distract > it, stalk it, and mailbomb it. > > And complaining never helps...it only stimulates their performance art juices. Hey, the jokes from Anonymous(ses) and Dmitri M. Vulis are the only reason I _read_ cpunks anymore! Oh yeah-- and that hilarious spoof about PGP, Inc. putting GAK-friendly features into their product. It's so funny that people fall for that old "PGP is in with the government" gag every time it comes around. Also, I'm looking for a job, I think. Or else a good university to go to. But mostly I'm just reading the hilarious Anonymous posts and spoofs. Regards, Zooko

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Re: PGP Employee on MKR
by mark＠unicorn.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

shamrock(a)cypherpunks.to wrote: > I have watched this silly debate for some time now. PGP pulled an awsome > hack on corporate America, bringing strong crypto to thousands of > corporate drones, while Cypherpunks, the crypto elite, seems incapable of > reponding with anything other than to engage in frenzied mutual > masturbation fueld by GAK fantasies. > > This is sad. Very sad. Lucky, did you actually read anything I wrote, or is this merely another knee-jerk response? If you can explain the following, then I'll accept that my fears are merely fantasies: 1. How PGP can prevent CMR being converted into GMR; their system builds all the code required to support mandatory encryption to FBI and NSA keys into every copy of PGP. 2. Why PGP prefer this option to almost identical systems which do not allow GMR. They don't even seem to be interested in discussing alternatives. These are the important questions we should be asking and noone on the pro-PGP side seems interested in answering them. Why? Frankly, this issue seems to be the most important since Clipper, and I'm amazed that so many cypherpunks are so dazzled by PGP's name that they refuse to sit and think these issues through. Mark

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InfoWar Epilogue 6 / The Geigerburg Text
by Bubba Rom Dos 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The True Story of the InterNet Part III InfoWar Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution Behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain by TruthMonger <tm(a)dev.null> Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- InfoWar Table of Contents * Epilogue * Bubba Rom Dos ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Epilogue ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- WORK AND NOT WORK Looking back over the events of my life since I wrote Witness and the experience of the Institute Summer School of 1962; it becomes more than ever clear to me that our understanding of man turns upon the problem of Reality. If the aim of existence is Self-Realization and if this is identical with God-Realization, then the connecting link that makes them one and the same is to be found in the meaning of the word 'Reality'. If all were equally real, then realization means the process of transformation that leads from the unreality or imperfect reality towards Reality in the fullest sense. The theme of this book is that there are both degrees and distinctive modes of Reality, and that there is a process that leads from the Unreal to the Real. This, in its turn, requires that there should be a means of effecting the transformation. This 'means' is what we call by the name of WORK. In the book there are few references to Work, either in the absolute sense as the process of universal realization, or in the relative sense of personal transformation. This is because those who participated in the discussions started from the premise that Work is a reality in both senses: absolute and relative. We were not concerned to discuss the authenticity of the process of transformation, but to understand it better. The obligation to work for Reality is the Categorical Imperative from which life derives its meaning. It is, as Kant showed in the Grundlage, the ultimate, irreducible, moral certainty from which are derived our notions of God, Immortality and Ethic. I have never been satisfied, nor I believe was Kant himself, with the Critique of Practical Reason. It does not convey the sense of urgency which we experience in contemplating life based on Work and life without Work. I was impelled to write this Epilogue by the impact of a vision or vivid dream that woke me from sleep a few nights ago. I found myself in some remote, antipodean place where people were living ordinary lives. I recognized not a few of them as people I knew or had read about and noticed with a sense of wonder rather than surprise that some were still living and others were dead. They did not notice this difference because in any case they were all ghosts. But they were all aware of being ghosts and wanted to turn into real people. From time to time, an aeroplane arrived with others who joined them and among the new arrivals were both living ghosts and dead ghosts. I was made aware that all was well with these people because eventually they would cease to be ghosts. Then I found myself back again nearer home; but this time I was taken to some kind of underground place. Here also were people more or less happily occupied with their daily lives and some of them were now living and others were dead. These also were ghosts but these ghosts were neither able to distinguish between life and death, nor did they understand that they were no more than ghosts. I knew that I must tell them about their condition and about the other place where ghosts were being transformed into real beings. When I spoke to them of aeroplanes that could take them over, they said that they would go only if an aeroplane would come back and assure them that there was a place for them over there. I remember very clearly explaining that once an aeroplane had gone over, it would never return. This seemed to them illogical and unreasonable and they took no more notice of what I said. Then I found myself in a kind of lift being taken back to the surface. I looked at the lift-man and said to myself, "If I were not colour blind I should see that his face is grey". Somehow, this observation brought home to me the terror of being a ghost and immense pity filled me for these people who had lost the possibility of becoming real. As I began to wake up, I said to myself: "What does it really matter that they are only ghosts? They are good, decent people, living good, decent lives and if they are satisfied with unreality why should they be disturbed? Their ghostly existence is also necessary." At that moment I awakened completely and saw, in a flash, the infinite significance of Work. It is the imperative of all imperatives, the source from which all life takes its meaning, the way to Reality and even Reality itself. Work takes many forms: but all forms have one common character: the Will to Reality. Whether active or passive, whether in solitude or in society, work is always one and the same: it is the dedication of the will to the realization of Reality. This dedication carries with it the obligation to share understanding with others and to serve the Work in its universal significance. That is why those who have seen the difference between ghost-life and real-life are compelled to speak of what they have seen-even to those who do not wish to hear. I am more than ever aware of the imperfections and even the errors in what I have written. I am ashamed to offer it as a "Spiritual Psychology" to those who are seeking for the Reality that is Work. Let it be taken as an essay and an attempt to share an understanding that is still in the process of being born. J.G. Bennett. January, 1964. {Excerpt from "A Spiritual Psychology" by J.G. Bennett} ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bubba Rom Dos "He who shits on the road, will meet flies upon his return." What is InfoWar? InfoWar is the voice that tells you that you can shit on the road, and not meet flies upon your return, if you spray the area with Agent Orange. InfoWar is the voice that tells you that you can spray the area with Agent Orange and not suffer any consequences to your own health, because you don't live here. InfoWar is the voice that tells you the people who do live here are Communists who need to be killed, with the help of Agent Orange, and people who need to be saved from both the Communists and the flies, with the help of Agent Orange. InfoWar is when the evening movie at the PX is 'Clockwork Orange' and your head starts pounding, as a ferocious battle begins between your awakened prenascence and the thundering voice which is screaming, "It is not synchronicityit is only a coincidence." InfoWar is when you can look at a picture of a napalm-burned child and tell by the color of their skin whether or not they are the enemy. I am not arguing for or against this or that battle, this or that war. I am only pointing out that anyone who returns from war the same as when they left for war, or with their sanity completely intact, in need of no healing Well, let me just say that they already live in a Virtual Reality within which the inhabitants of that reality do not realize that they are ghosts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- InfoWar is when you don't turn on the gasyou only put them in the ovens. InfoWar is when you don't put them in the ovensyou only turn on the gas. InfoWar is when you don't drop the atomic bomb, you only design it. InfoWar is when you have two types of nuclear bombs and you convince yourself that they both need to be dropped, not for testing purposes, but to end the war earlier, and to save lives. InfoWar is going to sleep praying that your Generals and Nuclear Physicists don't wake you in the morning to tell you that they have developed a third type of nuclear bomb, which must be dropped in order to shorten the war and save livesor a fourth, or a fifth. InfoWar is convincing you to develop nuclear software without a backdoor that you can use to prevent it from raining destruction on the innocent, because you are just a programmer, an engineer, a designer, a grunt, and these types of decisions are to be made by those who are trained to know when it is right for millions upon millions of people to die, and for the earth to be scorched beyond repair. InfoWar is convincing you to design surveillance software without a mechanism available to defeat it if it falls into the hands of the Destroyer. InfoWar is thinking that you are an island, and that your island only produces the tools and weapons that can be used for great Good or great Evil-thinking that those on other islands bear the responsibility for how those tools and weapons are used. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." -- Samuel Adams ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Y2K not a 'bug'-it is not a 'design flaw.' It is a collaboration, in preparation for Apple has not collapsed 'in spite of' being Y2K compliant, but 'because' of it. The Congressional IRS investigation is taking place despite the fact that the agency is not doing anything that it hasn't been doing for years and years. When heads roll (out), new heads roll in. The Secret Lab Players are being given leading stage roles, in positions such as at the FBI Crime Lab, in preparation for What was CAMP (Campaign Against Marihuana Production) all about? It was a male bonding ritual between the Federal, State, regional and local law enforcement agencies. It was laying the groundwork to shipping tens of thousands of federal assault rifles to local and regional LEA's in preparation for Full featured scaleable Telemetry systems for power reticulation control and a host of other applications. Exciting innovations in Telemetry Systems. Designed and manufactured to your exact needs. http://www.tora.net/telemetry/telemetry.html, 1873 bytes, 11Aug97 "The average person's views of love are no longer based upon their relationship with each other, but upon what they see on TV." - President of Video Valentine "That site contains no graphics, no photos, no video clips, no audio. Just text. Deal with it." -News of the Weird "The '[ANY]' program cannot be 'fixed,' because it's working precisely as the politicians want it to." -Vin Suprynowicz <vin(a)lvrj.com> Assistant Editorial Page Editor of the Las Vegas Review-Journal ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Check the Archives From: Ayn Rand <ar(a)dev.null> To: Tim May <tcmay(a)got.net> Tim May wrote: >There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Atlas Shrugged wrote: >"You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're >up against -- then you'll know that this is not the age for beautiful >gestures. We're after power and we mean it. Your fellows were pikers, >but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no >way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power >to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, >one makes them. Once declares so many things to be a crime that it >becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a >nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But >just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor >objectively interpreted -- and you create a nation of law-breakers---and >then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system...that's the game, and >once you understand it, you'll be easier to deal with." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everything since the Big Bang has been plagiarism. Will the future plagiarize Hitler or Ghandi? One Free Will, one vote ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" "WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs" "InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet') Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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InfoWar Epilogue 6 (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')
by Bubba Rom Dos 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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[news] Pentagon computers broken into over 250 times
by Vipul Ved Prakash 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

*** Pentagon computers broken into over 250 times More than 250 U.S. Defense Department computer systems were broken into last year and the number of attempted break-ins was projected to double this year, a U.S. intelligence official said. The comments that Air Force Lt. Gen. Kenneth Minihan, director of the National Security Agency (NSA), made Saturday at an intelligence convention were released Thursday. Urging stepped-up awareness of cyber security issues, Minihan said the United States built its information infrastructure on a "poor foundation -- and we will eventually pay for it." See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=5585016-7b1 -- Powell lingered. "How's Earth?" It was a conventional enough question and Muller gave the conventional answer, "Still spinning." -- "Reason", Asimov. ================================================================== Vipul Ved Prakash | - Electronic Security & Crypto vipul(a)best.com | - Web Objects 91 11 2233328 | - PERL Development 198 Madhuban IP Extension | - Linux & Open Systems Delhi, INDIA 110 092 | - Networked Virtual Spaces

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Re: spoofing as performance art
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Indeed, it is hard to tell the difference between spoofing and grave pronouncements on threats to one's own interests under guise of national secuirty and/or personal privacy, for the truthful lying that accompanies each performance are identical. Spoofing has the ethical and humorous edge, however, in that it gives clues to its origin as entertainment -- let's us in on the joke -- while the seriously dramatic performer aims at dominating us with profundity, wisdom, righteousness, conviction and disdain for disbelievers in the blind faith of the performer in the importance of her responsibility to hector and lecture us into craven servility. All leaders suffer over self-importance and thereby demand ridicule to save us from them. Here's a Bronx cheer to the non-spoofers, who don't get that the joke's on them. Thank Zeus and Juno, as far as I've read here, cypherpunks has no implacably non-spoofers posting, though a few of us are pretty good at behaving seriously briefly, spoofing seriousness. And PGP is doing a fine sanctimonious act worthy of high ridicule, it's just conforming to what businesses and governments do to survive the disloyalty of employees and citizens who don't believe once-trusted leaders inevitably corrupted by power, fame and chance to forever escape work (corrupt me, do). They become parodies of themselves. Anonymous got it right: Bosses and Government, no difference, same liars and snoopers and non-spoofers who just don't get what's wrong with putting their interests before ours, we gobbling voracious maggots.

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Re: PGP Employee on MKR
by mark＠unicorn.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Mark, just remove the self signature on the user key. The message >recovery key packet goes away! That's all you have to do. Is that >so tough? This big threat, the dangerous CMR key, turns out to take >two seconds of user actions to be destroyed. Something this easy to >turn off will never be good enough for GAK. Gosh, so I can just remove that packet and all my mail will bounce. What fun. This seems to be one of the mantras which pro-PGP folks are chanting: 'But there are easy ways to work around it, just modify your copy of PGP and it will all work fine'. Indeed there are; I have no doubt that there is no way that anyone could entirely prevent me from communicating privately with a few people. But what happens when I want to check whether the local Blockbuster have a copy of 'Debbie does Fort Meade'; will they have modified their software so I can send mail to them without GMR? Of course not. So 99.9% of my mail will still be visible to the government. >People say, "Oh, but then the government will make everybody run the >policy enforcer and reject any mail not encryped to the government." >First, if they were going to do this, they could do it with old versions >of PGP too. Multiple recipients have been around practically forever. *IT'S NOT THE MULTIPLE RECIPIENTS THAT ARE THE PROBLEM, IT'S BUILDING THE 'MANDATORY VOLUNTARY' MULTIPLE ENCRYPTION INTO EVERY COPY OF PGP WHICH IS THE PROBLEM* This is the other mantra that PGP supporters chant 'Oh, but it could all be done with PGP 2.6.2 and a few scripts'. Of course it could, but only a few people would choose to use those filters. If the government were to set up SMTP enforcers in various choke-points around the Net (and I'm aware of the performance issues) then anyone using PGP would have to encrypt to the 'voluntary' FBI key or lose their mail. The Feds aren't going to issue every PGP user with scripts to do it, but if you build this facility into the software they can use it. >Second, it's a ridiculous idea which ignores how email works. More and >more people are running systems at home which could send and receive >SMTP mail. The trend is towards home servers which support the multiple >home computers people will have in the next decade. There's no way to >make those people run filters! Duh, of course they won't. But that email will go out over a TCP link to the SMTP port, where it can be checked on route by sniffers or proxies. How did the Chinese and Singaporeans restrict Net access? By blocking connections in the routers and Web proxies. This is the way to do it, not to force everyone to run an SMTP enforcer on their personal machine. >It has to be suggested, because it's the only >way this incredibly stupid scenario could be made to work. I can only >assume that people are blinded by emotions or they wouldn't suggest such >a bizarre idea. Yes, I must be, mustn't I. I mean, the Feds would never pass a law mandating that all Internet providers must provide SMTP proxies which enforce the GMR and block other SMTP connections; after all, they never passed a law mandating that telephone companies must provide wiretap access. Oh, they did, didn't they? >If the only >way the government can enforce GAK is by making it illegal for people to >receive email through paths which don't pass through government filters >we can all rest easy, because it will never happen. Yes, which is why they won't do it that way. In my last job, any SMTP access from my machine to any other on the Net was automatically routed to our local SMTP server which acted as a proxy. Why can't the Feds do this on the US Internet? >Or superencrypt to the real end user, like you suggested in your scheme. >Why is this OK as a privacy workaround for your idea but it doesn't >count for PGP? Firstly, that's not a "privacy workaround" in my system, it's to prevent traffic analysis. Secondly, again it's a workaround which will only be available to a small number of people. >Ignoring all the considerations above about what a stupid idea this is, >the fact is that a simple filter like this is incredibly easy to write. As I said before, the SMTP filter is not the evil aspect of your design, it's the enforced encryption to multiple recipients. >The fact is, nobody has come up with a scenario where PGP's CMR feature >can be turned into GAK in any practical way. I just have. Now try to explain it away. Mark

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Save Money...Own your own Cable Descrambler!
by CableUs 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: ADMIN: lost messages (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: "Attila T. Hun" <attila(a)hun.org> > Date: Fri, 24 Oct 97 04:43:22 +0000 > Subject: Re: ADMIN: lost messages > Jim Choate <ravage(a)ssz.com> was purported to have > expostulated to perpetuate an opinion: > a:> Any clues? > > a:Things get lost on occassion? > pure bullshit and ego gratification. [much deleted] Put up or shut up junior. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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