December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
by nobody＠neva.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Anonymous <nobody(a)replay.com> wrote: >Actually, many studies have found that immigrants, legal and illegal, >make a net positive contribution to the economy, even considering >their access to government services. Anyone who has worked with >these people knows that most of them work harder than native born >Americans. > >Even aside from the strictly economic balance sheets, giving these >people the opportunity to succeed in a free country is a significant >moral benefit which must count in favor of free immigration. > >They also serve to make our country more multi-cultural, with greater >awareness and appreciation of the value of alternate customs and >lifestyles. We develop "hybrid vigor", as our culture is cross >fertilized by elements from all around the world. The result is an >incredibly dynamic and flexible culture, which is why the United >States will continue to be a world leader for the next century. These are all excellent points. If people are successful in forming strong cross border relationships, it may no longer be meaningful to describe one country or another as a "world leader". >Of course, this gift of diversity causes immigrants to be hated and >feared by racists such as Tim May, who sees them only as targets to >mock with threats of murder: > >> Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration >> laws. This is why the militias here in California have been forced >> to deal with illegal immigrants in the only way left to >> them. (There's a hunt in Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.) He may be a bastard, but he's *our* bastard! ;-) Seriously, I think you are doing yourself a disservice to characterize Tim May as a mere racist. His views are obviously more complex and interesting than that. In this case, he is making a joke. I think. Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNHN0xJaWtjSmRH/5AQHzdgf+P0E375vWVovGPwO2ktrDxEaw9OraP5ua 7o8a4nBoyYmt260hLsi8hjl9Ae4qjFQIQvDJ5JMlWgS4VOWOCjvOkAs7LG4Vnxk7 8/AvxzcBWL5XjNMNbvvDpRb+fPvEffovYT/8E/EN5aePRvqtSq7YifwqbRWuYraF PEOYqs4am/v68uLg4N0rb3uomfgr+C/WqOEPd1jMYkjnUIJg9k+Br+HGqCNFgsfN T15b4jaKN5nGsaANiXY9E87WTxpXuXBzmyfLea4I/AuB36m7/kdCm5CyObFFMpSE 2lueUotU/shH3dBWdEwbKLmsVyyx4AxJ7iRPRx+qJF9V3Z5QnIfPRg== =7QR5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Scientology war update
by Tim Griffiths 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Wired has a good article on how the war of words on alt.scientology.religion has split over into dawn raids and hardware seizures: http://www.wired.com/wired/3.12/features/alt.scientology.war.html If this is what can be achieved, think what can happen when the government _really_ puts its back it suppression. Time to PGP every file I own... Tim -- Dr Tim Griffiths is in real life t.griffiths(a)ic.ac.uk Vmail on (0)-1392-264197 Public key available - finger tim(a)tim01.ex.ac.uk - Nothing is trivial -

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Re: Nobuki Nakatuji
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jonathan Wienke wrote: >Due to his distinctive writing style, John Young should probably have >his anonymous posts translated into English by Nobuki if he truly >wishes to remain anonymous. Good god, Jonathan, you trying to get the JY-box TWA 800ed on CIA-TV Barney? Send fee for using TM nym. Spoofing persistent identities, writing style, secret thoughts and hidden agendas are adult-nut-rated kid's stuff here, the weirdo pitches the easiest of all, especially the puretext missionary position in white socks style of blackhearts which ever vaunts itself best See Jane Read Spot. Who do you think "John Young" is if not a machinic composite of all previous, current and conceivable and abortable of cpunks, and pseudo-cpunks, extra bile-sauced with apish objective journalism gone stale, foul, rancid and roadkill tastier, by all the crazed truly knowns and unknowns passing through claoked in incredibly ordinary, goofily Anglicized, hide-shame names of the world's English-imitating kill-native cultures. To wit: "John Young," no other vapid pseudonym have ever been so often used to hide god's evilist holies. Except the other subscribers.

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Re: Copyrights and Wrongs, from The Netly News
by Declan McCullagh 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Congress has voted to make not-for-profit copyright infringments a federal felony, as I write in my article at: http://cgi.pathfinder.com/netly/opinion/0,1042,1588,00.html A Federal court in _LaMacchia_ noted that: "Since 1897, when criminal copyright infringement was first introduced into U.S. copyright law, the concept differentiating criminal from civil copyright violations has been that the infringement must be pursued for purposes of commercial exploitation." This now changes. For the first time in the history of the U.S., nonprofit (noncommercial) copying is a crime. When doing research for the story I stumbled across this quote, from the Supreme Court in Dowling v. United States, 473 U.S. 207 (1985): ...Interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: "Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner..." [...] The infringer invades a statutorily defined province guaranteed to the copyright holder alone. But he does not assume physical control over the copyright; nor does he wholly deprive its owner of its use. While one may colloquially like infringement with some general notion of wrongful appropriation, infringement plainly implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion or fraud. -Declan ------------------------- Declan McCullagh Time Inc. The Netly News Network Washington Correspondent http://netlynews.com/

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police state rumors
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

------- Forwarded Message >>The following is an UNCONFIRMED RUMOR. If you have any information >>to confirm or deny these statements, please post and cc: >>safety.security(a)cancomm.com. As always, please specify your sources as >>precisely as possible. Thanks, Wes Thomas >> >>-- Forwarded -- >> >>To all, >> >>This e-mail came to me by way of public user in a public library. There was >>no use in replying to this party for he would probably not be the one to >>receive my reply. I cannot verify the facts as presented in this post, but >>I'm sending this out for comments. Anyone with further information on this >>situation please forward it through your network and cc: me a copy at >>safety.security(a)cancomm.com. >> >>Best Regards, >> >>Al Colombo, Editor >>Safety & Security Magazine >>safety.security(a)cancomm.com >>http://web.raex.com/~colombo/ >> >>>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:47:18 -0800 >>>From: *** Public PC User -- Library Documents <user(a)***.edu> >>>Subject: military weapons issud to police depts. >>>To: colombo >>> >>>I'm a former cop with 16 years of experience including intelligence, >>>SWAT, tactical operations, criminal investigations. >>> >>>Police depts. are receiving free of charge from the Defense logistics >>>Agency all kinds of military pattern small arms. these include m-16's >>>(full auto kind), ammo, and even bayonets. Also included is webb gear, >>>ammo pouches, ponchos, night vision devices and passive infra-red and >>>thermal imaging night sights or night vision devices. >>> >>>Sources of mine in the State of WA., say that many PD's are now training >>>in advanced small unit tactics involving MOUT scenarios at the Yakima >>>Army Training Center. MOUT deals with street fighting in an urban >>>warfare context. >>> >>>In addition, automatic weapons instruction (small arms) is also given to >>>these units at the training center and some units report Army >>>instructors (mostly special forces types) are instructing them in long >>>range snipe fire and concenalment mehtods, including reconnaisance and >>>intelligence gathering in the field. >>> >>>Now here's the kicker. The WA. State Criminal Justice Training >>>Commision is allegedly (good source on this) considering expanding the >>>police academy curriculum and training hours from the present 440 hrs. >>>to twice that amount. Civil unrest and street fighting tactics are to >>>be included in the new blocs of instruction. Additional emphasis on >>>sniper and full auto weapons training and intelligence gathering >>>missions, plus joint tactical doctrine in order to facilitate working >>>with military units may also be included. I hear other states are to >>>join in with the same agenda to be implemented. >>> >>>Sources with WA. State Emergency Management Services report that the WA. >>>State Patrol is now designated the LEAD co-ordinating agency for all >>>WAs. State police operations in the event of an emergency and in >>>co-ordinating these operations with elements of the National Guard and >>>US regular Army! >> >>*********************************************************** >>EWAR-L Electronic Warfare Mailing List >>To unsubscribe or subscribe: send a message to majordomo(a)sonic.net >>with the following text: unsubscribe EWAR-L or subscribe EWAR-L. >>To post messages, send to: <EWAR-L(a)sonic.net>. Previous posts: >><http://www.sonic.net/~west/ewar/digest.htm>. EWAR Web site: >><http://www.sonic.net/~west/ewar/ewar.htm>. >>-Wes Thomas <west(a)sonic.net>, list owner >> > > >`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` >This Hyperborea message was transmitted by or redirected from: >onelight(a)eznet.net >... >[*]^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^[*] >| The Galactic Courier @ Hyperborea | >| Internet News Tabloid for the Galactic Guilder | >| Metaphysics & Mischief in Cyberspace | >| ___"all the news that's fit to post!"___ | >[*]_____________________________________________________________________[*] > - - --------------5E8B804B1B913D9C90795D2F-- - ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- End of Forwarded Message --===========================_ _= 9575805(248)--

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Re: RESULT: comp.org.cauce passes 548:122
by Mixmaster 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

devin(a)premier1.net (Devin Ganger) wrote: > : If an address points back to a real address, then it's not *ANONYMOUS*, > : though. > > I think you're pushing an unrealistic and overlarge definition of > anonymity here. > > Anonymous simply means that I don't know the real identity of the person, > and that I have no easy way of ascertaining that knowledge. However, I > can still deal with that anonymous persona *as* that anonymous persona. > > Two-way anonymous remailers fit that description. So would a message through a TRUE anonymous remailer (not a nymserver) that was PGP-signed with the same key used for other posts. In fact, it would provide a more reliable correspondence between the post and its anonymous author than relying on a mere From: address in the header. Yet the proponents of the CAUCE proposal insisted on a repliable (and mailbombable, spammable, etc.) address. Why? > What you and others are talking about when you discuss anonymity is > something far beyond that -- you're talking about a complete > disassociation between the speakers and their words (or posts). Whether > one calls that "privacy" or "irresponsibility" is a flamewar of a > different color, and totally beside the point. It is a concept that > certainly *contains* anonymity as a necessary pre-condition, but it goes > far beyond the bounds of anonymity. "Anononymous but traceable" is an oxymoron that necessarily depends on trusting a person who "holds the secrets". The security of the anon.penet.fi remailer, for example, depended upon the ability of its operator to defend the security of its database against attacks from powerful, censorious elements such as the "Church" of $cientology. Ultimately, it was unable to do so and chose to shut down rather to incur expensive litigation in defense of the privacy of its clients. Not trusting such traceable schemes to protect one's privacy does not "go far beyond the bounds of anonymity". Calling any such scheme true anonymity is nothing but SNAKE OIL. The "fortress 'nym server" in which the operator is not only personally trustworthy but also possesses the ability to defend against any and all external attacks on the integrity of its identifying database simply does not exist in the real world. The fallacious assumption at work here seems to be that the validity of an idea is somehow dependent on the identity of the messenger conveying that idea. Thus, the notion of "2+2=4" may not be valid if the identity of the person stating it cannot be verified. Personally, if I got a knock on my door at 2 AM warning me that my house was on fire, I'd investigate it, even I didn't know the person warning me. > In this case, it seems that the *intent* behind the comp.org.cauce > proposal was to allow anonymity in an environment that also allowed some > level of accountability, which the total privacy thing necessarily > lessens. And, again, whether or not the means they chose to pursue that > intent were duplicitous or not is a flamewar for other days and > newsgroups. The fact that identification through a unique, non-forgeable PGP signature on each post was rejected but a repliable e-mail address was accepted as that form of "accountability" casts doubt on the true motives behind this requirement, though. Real world experience on the internet should teach any objective observer that a repliable e-mail address is no guarantee of "accountability". The presumption is apparently that any perceived misbehavior can be remedied by either killfiling the person's e-mail address, or Net-copping the individual and harassing his/her sysadmin into cancelling the account. But how often have we seen Usenet spammers who can acquire new accounts faster than the old ones can be killfiled or nuked? --

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Apology -- FBI abduction story
by ichudov＠algebra.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list. I was abducted by the FBI along with my computer. They are accusing me of sponsoring seditious libel against the government. They let me go after I explained them that the Cypherpunks Crack Force from the Mayonnaise Mountain is ready to mount Million Man Assault against Washington, D.C. Seriously, it happened because the DNS records for algebra.com got screwed up. I am sorry. It is not going to happen again in the near future. igor

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Re: Factor a 2048-bit number
by Antonomasia 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Monty Cantsin > Hint 2: There is an observation which suggests the number may be > factored. A one word hint will reveal this observation. > (I want to hold off on Hint 3 for a little while in case somebody is > already working on the problem. If anybody wants me to withhold Hint > 3, please post a message to the list and I may do so. It seems to me > that it will be more fun to solve without Hint 3.) > Wouldn't it be neat to actually factor a 2048-bit number which was the > product of two large primes? The wording of the original challenge suggested there was a trick to this particular factorisation. My guess that q=p+2 was wrong, so square rooting (cheap) and using the 2 nearest odd integers was a loser. -- ############################################################## # Antonomasia ant(a)notatla.demon.co.uk # # See http://www.notatla.demon.co.uk/ # ##############################################################

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List still active???
by phelix＠vallnet.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I know that the listserver at algebra.com is down. Are the other servers still working? Is anybody out there? -- Phelix

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No Subject
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I factored a 2048 bit key and all I got was Jerry Springers' "Too Hot for Television" videocassette and this bumber sticker, "I Brake For Illegal Immigrants" -Joe7

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Re: [cpe:4985] State Department Advisory Group
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Robert Hettinga wrote: > > I'm surprised they don't want a sperm sample, too. > --- begin forwarded text > To expedite admission for those of you wishing to attend, please provide > your name, affiliation, address, telephone number, date of birth and social > security number by close of business, Wednesday, December 10. Joe Smith, Joe Smith Organization, 123 Joe Smith drive, Smithville, JS, (JOE) JOE-SMITH, JO/ES/MITH, JOE-SMITH-JS, <squirt-squirt>.

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Further Costs of War
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- A few more comments on World War II. Had World War II been prevented, along with deaths of 50 million or so people, we would also have been spared (in the United States) income tax withholding. Previously the only people paying income tax were fairly wealthy and there was no withholding. I doubt very much that income tax withholding would have been accepted if the War were not used to justify it. ("You don't want to pay taxes? What are you, a traitor?") Without income tax withholding, it would have been hard to get to the point where we are now. The U.S. Federal government consumes about 40% of the GDP. When the resources aren't wasted outright, they are used to perpetrate evil in the world. To put this in perspective, multiply your income by 1.4. For example, if your income is $50,000, that would be another $20,000 you would have every single year. Where could you spend that money? If you simply saved it at 3% a year, in 30 years you would have about $950,000. That's all for doing exactly what you do now. Who needs national health insurance? Monty Cantsin Editor in Chief Smile Magazine http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBNHX525aWtjSmRH/5AQF3TQf+LWjfFPOsg3oOk2B00v9gFCiQumz7ZELg o+JFTi9sepLrhAnA7GdsnzPU2yPmJ5Q9w0j08AaBCEb29a7FNt/xX18V2XUGav9J KWVK1CTDTLBeC1iX8rUhnqhidV/pIZjIg860LllEg7T8jdQfwaaz+EeoH/egod6f C2Nd8D9wFlyGGxh992stC5/aicxTxwzVX9UgAox5iwdQIE0WEFRj+KAoBAfd+v6t BQ0qhLVpHmGKRnLO4I2IYXBwzIvzRtOcYAGcy7A/k/XbVSvKs9I7vHMhJAFUDqWw RECgxQKtKy1DK1S/xOed5oW/m52YvvIez2NDLsYoGAVeCuLNJja5Xw== =xefg -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Good recent books on encryption, privacy, etc.?
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text X-Sender: ddfr(a)shell9.ba.best.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:39:58 -0800 Reply-To: Law & Policy of Computer Communications <CYBERIA-L(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM> Sender: Law & Policy of Computer Communications <CYBERIA-L(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM> From: david friedman <ddfr(a)BEST.COM> Subject: Good recent books on encryption, privacy, etc.? To: CYBERIA-L(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM I am getting ready to teach my seminar on Computers, Crime and Privacy again, and wondering if there is something new that I should substitute for _Building in Big Brother_. Are there any recent books that have a reasonably accessible treatment of encryption, the controversy over regulation, etc.? For that matter, are there any good recent books on computer crime? I may end up simply substituting in a lot of URL's, but I thought it was probably worth including some old technology as well, if available. David Friedman Professor of Law Santa Clara University ddfr(a)best.com http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>

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[Fwd: [cpe:4980] Factoring a 2048 bit key]
by Electronic Forgery Foundation 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Mr. Hettinga, The Electronic Forgery Foundation's legal counsel informs us that, as hypocrites, we have a right to sue you for elevation of character for forging posts in our name (even if we did it ourselves when we were drunk and later forgot about it). If our legal counsel confirms this opinion once she sobers up, you can expect to hear from us upon her graduation from law school. (She is currently in Grade Six, so there is no rush for you to consult your own attorney on this matter.) Insincerely, Jess Fission Robert Hettinga Alternate Persona Appointee, Electronic Forgery Foundation Subject: [cpe:4980] Factoring a 2048 bit key From: Robert Hettinga <eff(a)dev.null> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:01:50 -0600 Delivered-To: mailing list cypherpunks-e(a)htp.org Mailing-List: contact cypherpunks-e-help(a)htp.org; run by ezmlm Organization: "Electronic Forgery Foundation" References: <4a1a277e757631dec78e33b98a7bdfcb(a)anon.efga.org> Reply-To: cypherpunks(a)cyberpass.net Reply-To: eff(a)dev.null Sender: cypherpunks-e-owner(a)htp.org Sender: owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com Anonymous wrote: > > I factored a 2048 bit key and all I got was > Jerry Springers' "Too Hot for Television" > videocassette and this bumber sticker, > "I Brake For Illegal Immigrants" I factored it and got: > "I want to kill judges." > > - Tim May Go figure...

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What REALLY happened to Flight 800...
by Brian W. Buchanan 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Algebra.com is down, so I'm resending this through cyberpass. Gotta love distributed mailing lists. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:50:36 -0800 (PST) From: "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian(a)smarter.than.nu> To: cypherpunks(a)algebra.com Subject: What REALLY happened to Flight 800... >From comp.risks: | An article `Windows added to cockpit choices' in Flight International, 5-11 | November 1997, p 25, explains that the US company Avidyne has certificated | an avionics system based on Windows NT. The hardware supplier is Electronic | Designs, who has recently received approval from the FAA (approval for what | is not specified). Avidyne is apparently working on Level-C approval, which | will allow use of its moving-map display for IFR navigation. One of the | benefits is said to be the wide range of interfaces available to other | devices. "Good afternoon, Microsoft technical support." "This is TWA Flight 800. Our avionics system just shit itself! Something about a segmentation violation in the hydrolics interface driver!" "Hmm. Did you try rebooting it?" "Yes, several times! Losing attitude control!" "Hmm. This may require a reinstall of the operating system then. Please hold for a moment while I connect you to one of our reinstallation support technicians." "No! Wait! The center fuel tank's thermostat control dialog is full of random garbage now! *SCREAM* *BOOM*" ... And in today's news, despite a leaked report from the NTSB that it was not "digital sabotage," but a critical bug in Microsoft Windows NT for Avionics that was responsible for the crash of TWA Flight 800, President Clinton has asked Congress to introduce legislation that would enable the FBI to monitor so-called computer hackers more carefully through digital wiretaps and mandatory key escrow, to "save the children from the info-terrorists on the other side of the Bridge to the Twenty-First Century." Microsoft is not commenting at this time, but a source within the company has informed us that a fix for the "center fuel tank bug" will be included in NT for Avionics Service Pack 4, to be released in the first quarter of 1998. -- Brian Buchanan brian(a)smarter.than.nu "War is peace. Freedom is slavery. I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you." No security through obscurity! Demand full source code! 4.4BSD for the masses - http://www.freebsd.org

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HAYEKWEB: M Friedman Interview on Hayek & The Road to Serfdom
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:17:30 -0500 Reply-To: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L(a)MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU> Sender: Hayek Related Research <HAYEK-L(a)MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU> From: Greg Ransom <Gregransom(a)AOL.COM> Subject: HAYEKWEB: M Friedman Interview on Hayek & The Road to Serfdom To: HAYEK-L(a)MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU >> Hayek on the Web << C-SPAN 'Booknotes' Interview with Milton Friedman on Friedrich Hayek and his _The Road to Serfdom_. On the Web at: http://www.c-span.org/mmedia/booknote/lambbook/transcripts/50060.htm Excerpt: "Booknotes Transcript Author: Milton Friedman Title: Introduction to F. A. Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom" Air date: November 20, 1994 BRIAN LAMB: Dr. Milton Friedman, why did you choose or why did they ask you to write the introduction to the F. A. Hayek "Road to Freedom" 50th anniversary ... MILTON FRIEDMAN: ""Road to Serfdom"." LAMB: Yes, that's your title on your book. Why did you do it? FRIEDMAN: The reason they asked me was very clear, because Hayek and I had been associated for a very long time, in particular in an organization called the Montbelleron Society that he founded. The charter meeting was in 1947 in Switzerland. Hans Morgenthau, who was a professor at the University of Chicago when I was there, a political scientist, when I came back from the meeting, he asked me where I had been, and I told him that I had been to a meeting that had been called by Hayek to try to bring together the believers in a free, open society and enable them to have some interchange, one with another. He said, "Oh, a meeting of the veterans of the wars of the 19th century!" I thought that was a wonderful description of the Montpelleron Society. Well, Hayek and I worked together in the Montpelleron Society and we were fostering essentially the same set of ideas. His "Road to Serfdom" book, the one you have there, which was published 50 years ago, was really an amazing event when it came out. It's very hard to remember now what the attitude was in 1944-45. Throughout the Western world, the movement was toward centralization, planning, government control. That movement had started already before World War II. It started really with the Fabian Society back in the late 19th century -- George Bernard Shaw, the Webbs and so on. But the war itself and the fact that in war you do have to have an enormous amount of government control greatly strengthened the idea that after the war what you needed was to have a rational, planned, organized, centralized society and that you had to get rid of the wastes of competition. That was the atmosphere. Those of us who didn't agree believed in what we would call a liberal society, a free society -- 19th century liberalism. There were quite a number of us in the United States and in Britain, but in the rest of the world they were very isolated, indeed. Hayek's idea was to bring them together and enable them to get comfort and encouragement from one another without having to look around to see who was trying to stab them in the back, which was the situation in their home countries. LAMB: The New York Times put on the Op-Ed page your introduction to this edition. Do you know why they did that? What got their attention? FRIEDMAN: I can't answer that. You'd have to ask the people at the New York Times. On the whole, they have in the past not been very favorable to these ideas -- quite the contrary -- but they've been changing. About two or three years ago, they published -- they've turned down many an Op-Ed piece from me, which I subsequently published in the Wall Street Journal or somewhere else. But a couple of years ago, they did publish an Op-Ed piece from me about the situation after the fall of the Berlin Wall, in which my thesis was a very simple one. Everybody agrees, as a result of the experience in the West, that socialism has been a failure. Everybody agrees that capitalism has been a success, that wherever you have had an improvement in the conditions of the ordinary people over any lengthy time, it's been in a capitalist society, and yet everybody is extending socialism. After the fall of the Berlin Wall, there were no summits in Washington about how we cut down government. The lesson from the fall of the Berlin Wall was that we have too extensive a government and we ought to cut it down. Everybody agrees, but yet wherever you go, we have to extend socialism. The summit in Washington was about how you enable government to get more revenue in order for government to be more important, which is exactly the opposite. So socialism guides our behavior in strict contrast to what we believe to be the facts of the world. LAMB: Let me ask you a little bit more about Friedrich Hayek. Who was he? FRIEDMAN: Fritz Hayek was an economist. He was born in Vienna. He started his professional career in Vienna. In the late 1920s, some people in Britain at the London School of Economics were very greatly impressed with the book he had written and with the work he had done, and they invited him to come to the London School. At a relatively young age, he became a professor at the London School of Economics. He spent the 30s and most of the 40s there. Early in the 1950s, he left London and came to the University of Chicago where he was a professor for about 10 years, and then he went back to Germany. He essentially retired to the University of Freiberg in Germany. LAMB: How long has he been dead? FRIEDMAN: He's been dead about two years now, I think. He lived to be 90, and he has an enormous list of books and articles and so on he has published. The "Road to Serfdom," the one we're showing here, was a sort of manifesto and a call to arms to prevent the accumulation of a totalitarian state. One of the interesting things about that book is whom it's dedicated to. It's dedicated "to the socialists of all parties," because the thesis of the book is that socialism is paving the way toward totalitarianism and that Socialist Russia, at the time, is not different from Nazi Germany. Indeed, it was National Socialism -- that's where "nazi" comes from. This was a kind of manifesto and had a very unexpected effect. It was turned down by several publishers in the United States before the University of Chicago published it, and both in Britain and the United States, it created something of a sensation. It was a best-seller. The Reader's Digest published a condensation of it and distributed 600,000 copies. You had a big argument raising about people who were damning it as reactionary against all the good things of the world and people who were praising it and showing what the real status was. It's a book well worth reading by anybody because there's a very subtle analysis of why it is that well-meaning people who intend only to improve the lot of their fellows tend to favor courses of action which have exactly the opposite effect. I think from my point of view the most interesting chapter in that book is one labeled "Why the Worst Get on Top." It's, in a way, another example of the famous statement of Lord Acton that "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."" Hayek on the Web is a regular feature of the Hayek-L list. --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/ Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>

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Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

William H. Geiger III, well known Nativist (if not Native) American, writes: > In <199711192035.VAA20768(a)basement.replay.com>, on 11/19/97 > at 09:35 PM, Anonymous <nobody(a)REPLAY.COM> said: > > >Actually, many studies have found that immigrants, legal and illegal, > >make a net positive contribution to the economy, even considering their > >access to government services. > > Yes and 4 out of 5 doctors in an independent study prefer Buffren. Would > you care to back this up with some actual facts. >From the Cato Institute, a well known libertarian think tank, http://www.cato.org/dailys/4-22-97.html: > Myth number four: Immigrants impose a financial burden on > taxpayers. Immigrants do make somewhat heavier use of means-tested welfare > programs than natives. There have been especially flagrant abuses by > immigrants of particular welfare programs, such as Supplemental Security > Income. But because immigrants tend to come to the United States during > the start of their working years --between the ages of 18 and 35 -- > they make very large net contributions to the two largest income transfer > programs: Social Security and Medicare. When the payroll tax contributions > of immigrants are taken into account, the Urban Institute found that the > foreign born constitute a net fiscal windfall to the public sector of > some $20 billion a year. To the extent that welfare use by immigrants is > a problem, this can be addressed by restricting the welfare eligibility > of immigrants, not by keeping immigrants out. More details can be found by searching for "immigration" on www.cato.org.

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Re: Alternative Apology
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

igor said: >I am sorry for the recent interruption of the cypherpunks mailing list. >The dog ate my computer. Then Joichi Ito ate my dog. > >Igor Igor, Japanese dont eat dog, that is the Koreans and Vietnamese. doormouse

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Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced
by ichudov＠Algebra.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

reuters Florida State News Reuters 20-NOV-97 (TAMPA) -- Federal marshals and local deputies have shut down three Tampa area ``pirate'' radio stations, silencing unlicensed sources of rock music and far-right ideology. Authorities carted off broadcast and studio equipment from all three stations and dismantled a rooftop antenna that stood over one broadcaster's home. One of the stations was operated by 53-year-old Arthur Kobres, who is named in a 14- count indictment alleging violations of national broadcasting laws. Authorities say Kobres used his equipment to broadcast anti-government messages. Also silenced was ``Tampa's Party Pirate,'' a 100-watt F-M station run by Doug Brewer. A third operator who was shut down... 22-year-old Kelly Benjamin... was also arrested for possession of marijuana.

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The 4th Great Awakening
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Read "Speed" by William Burroughs.

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The Subliminal Algebra-Seinfield Conspiracy
by TruthMonger 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Is it a mere coincidence that algebra.com went down and proceeded to send out all received messages in reverse order on the _same_day_ that the Seinfield TV show featured a reverse-order-plot show? Picking up a little corporate spare-change, Igor? JerryMonger

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Secrets you should know
by roddaenterprises＠email.msn.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: Jim Bell's Sentencing Delayed Again
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Greg Broiles wrote: > > At 10:16 PM 11/21/97 -0500, John Young wrote: > >Jim Bell was scheduled to be sentenced today at 9:30 AM. > >[...] > >Perhaps one of our legal subscribers could comment on what's > >going on with these repeated delays in sentencing, especially > >whether it's common to do so after a plea agreement is reached. > It strikes me as peculiar/unusual Everything about Bell's case has been peculiar/unusual. - posts sent to the cypherpunks list _before_ the bust quoting news reports which were dated the following day. - thinly veiled threatening messages directed to Bell/cypherpunks posted to the list mere hours before the bust. - follow-up posts and threatening private emails regarding Bell's case sent to the list and individual cypherpunks from the treasury email system. - two prominent lawyers having their calls to Bell's legal aide attorney after expressing an interest to help in his case. - the 'usual suspects' advising list members to 'be afraid,' to 'chill out,' shut up and lay low. [...] > I'm starting to favor the explanation which suggests that Jim will be > testifying at the trial(s) or before grand juries in other matters - and > that his sentencing is postponed to ensure his cooperation, and that the > defense isn't squealing about the successive postponements because that's > seen as more favorable than receiving a sentence of many, many months in > the event of noncooperation. The events follow a classic pattern as described above. > I'm reluctant to finger anyone as a "snitch" > without knowing more - and this is all speculation - but something looks > funny about what's happening thus far. (It's also possible that he's > physically/mentally incapacitated such that he's not able to participate in > his sentencing, which would explain why the court would be postponing on > its own initiative, and why the defense isn't opposing the continuance.) Incapacitation does not result in an information blackout surrounding the dispensation of the case and a stonewalling of all attempts at contact the defendant. You can bet your sweet ass that Bell's volatile mental stability was not lost on his captors, who would undoubtedly realize that it would not take a great deal of prodding with the proper medications to put him in the same frame of mind that allows police social workers to convince small children that the mayor and the chief of police have molested them in satanic rituals involving circus animals. My guess is that he is currently ratting out each and every one of us for imaginary crimes in return for LEA promises that Comet Hale-Bop has been recalled in order to pick him up. Be alarmed. Be very all-armed! Loch N. Lode

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good work
by Mixmaster 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Bob, Tim. You guys are doing great. i think that the enemy is confused into thinking that we are feckless juveniles who are at each other's throats and are posing no real threat. excellent. this should give us those precious few extra weeks needed to complete Plan A. also: perhaps you two should get together and re-work your contingency confessions. wouldn't want some of your accusations against one another to accidentally be true! (use Bob's "Toto" nym. be careful not to accidentally Cc: the cypherpunks list!) white team leader -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv Comment: x iQCVAwUBNHa/HRiDTlaqCaKdAQG4rgP9FdcSg3qneEb0N2LWH7QvL/bh3Jp4pyjf N2hEdpj1Og6SztZVwUyeJD+RbmYuKWzrByB3KpPVnSk99ZjftwhLOy+t+AZEGbtu dBlhUxdR/6OjqKD3tqXTWDc3kI4gnqX5bxA2G+MLvQUsXhQr+wwDpfvLxxxstbWu w6nQ9wiEhMQ= =og1a -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: [cpe:5043] Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:26:07 -0600 > From: TruthMonger <tm(a)dev.null> > Subject: Re: [cpe:5043] Tampa Pirate Radio Stations Silenced > Authorities say Choates used his equipment to broadcast anti-government > messages. It's 'Choate'. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there | | be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves. | | | | -Alan Greenspan- | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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