December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

United States as Northern Ireland
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 9:16 PM 8/5/96, hallam(a)Etna.ai.mit.edu wrote: >If you think the wiretap bill is bad think on this, all guns >of all types banned except where held by special license. >Checkpoints at major road intersections. Stop and search >patrols in city centers and the army on the street. Its not >at all far fetched, the UKgovt took less than a year to >introduce such measures in Northern Ireland. Constitution or >not, don't expect that the US Congress won't make a similar >response. Yes, I agree. Welcome to our side, Phill! --Tim May HOW TO MAKE A PIPE BOMB: "Buy a section of metal water pipe 1/2 by 6 inches long, threaded on both ends. Buy two metal caps to fit. These are standard items in hardware stores. Drill a 1/16th hole in the center of the pipe. This is easy with a good drill bit. Hanson is a good brand to use. Screw a metal cap tightly on one end. Fill the pipe to within 1/2 inch of the top with black powder. Do not pack the powder. Don't even tap the bottom of the pipe to make it settle. You want the powder loose. For maximum explosive effect, you need dry, fine powder sitting loose in a very rigid container." (more information at http://sdcc13.ucsd.edu/~m1lopez/pipe.html, or by using search engines)

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"lite" version of cpunks available?
by Steve Reid 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Are there any filtered versions of the Cypherpunks mailing list available? I'm currently subscribed to cypherpunks-d(a)gateway.com, but that machine is down and I haven't received anything in the past few days.

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Internet Economics
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 02:22 PM 8/5/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: >The current question is how to motivate individuals and companies to invest >in improvements to the Internet that will benefit everyone. However, I don't >think that will be the limiting factor that it may currently appear to be. >Due to the nature of the Internet, there is nothing to prevent a company >(such as AOL, Compuserve, or other) from building a shadow version of the >Internet, through which all of its customer's traffic will pass until it >emerges local to its destination. Note that this is the business model for @HOME which will be handling the heavy lifting for various Internet Over Cable systems around the country. DCF

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Re: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports)
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:59 PM 8/5/96 -0700, Jamie Zawinski wrote: >Well, it would be nice if it was that easy. You (legally) need to give >the correct one to anyone who has to make a report about you to the IRS, >right? Such as your employer. Virtually no one in the history of the world has done any time for giving a false SS#. Considering the fact that millions of Americans daily drive drunk, exceed the lawful speed limit, drift through stop signs without coming to a complete halt pick each other up in bars and do a host of other things that are much more likely to get them in trouble than making up an SS#, I am constantly *amazed* that people always advise you not to do so. If it's good enough for the President of Israel, it's good enough for anyone. >Is it >needed to get a driver's license? (The fine print on the DMV forms says >"yes".) But most DMVs don't check and the SS is still resisting verification services (at least until the Immigration Bill passes). >Is it necessary to make use of employer-sponsored medical >insurance? (I suspect that the answer to this one is "no", except for >the fact that when my employer set up my medical insurance they let the >insurance company use my SSN as my insurance-related-ID-number. But in >any event, my dentist told me, "if you don't give it to us, they won't >pay.") Just make sure you give the insurance company and the doctor the same number. >If you already have a SSN, can you get a *new* one in any legal way? >(Sort of the same idea as changing your phone number to avoid >telemarketing scum...) The SS resists issuing new numbers in spite of widespread duplication and theft. Soon people will find themselves denied the right to work in this country unless the SS reverses this reluctance. If your SS# is stolen and used "too many times" in a future worker verification program, you're screwed. And there won't even be any welfare for you. Use Alta Vista to find the SS Number FAQ. There's more stuff. DCF

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Re: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports)
by shamrock＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 16:13 8/5/96, Mike Duvos wrote: >Jamie Zawinski wrote: > >> If you already have a SSN, can you get a *new* one in any legal way? >> (Sort of the same idea as changing your phone number to avoid >> telemarketing scum...) To prevent the blacklisting of labor leaders by SSN, the Social Security Act has a provision that allows you to request a new SSN. You have a right to get a new SSN issued. Don't expect your SS office to know anything about it. [disclaimer: I am not an attorney] -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President.

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Re: Public report of the EU crack.
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:12 AM 8/6/96, John C. Randolph wrote: >Well, well, well! > >So we gain a several allies in our battle against key-escrow, and >lo and behold, it's all the *other* governments who don't want >Uncle Sam to read their mail. > >I hope that any c'punks in foreign countries can make some politcal >hay with this: "Don't let the yankee imperialists tell us a goddamn thing >about crypto policy! They'll only use it to pull weasel moves in the >trade talks!" > >Actually, it might be a good thing for Her Majesty's government to >issue an advisory, saying not to buy US routers and encryption software, >because it can't be trusted, under present US ITAR rules. Agreed. The report was only surpising to me in that it appeared in print...anyone who read Bamford in '82 knew this sort of economic espionage was a major mission of the NSA and various private contractors. On the subject of routers and sniffers, excuse me if I'm misremembering things, but wasn't a certain anti-Mitnick hacker writing in one of his books about his role in developing certain "packet sniffers" that had properties desirable to the U.S. intelligence community? Perhaps the Brits are just being "monitored" by the Colonials? (If I sound paranoid, I just came from a showing of "Chain Reaction." Some flaws, but also some good reminders about the dangers of the "black budget," large listening posts in Virgina (and England and elsewhere), and a U.S. government that now sits astride the world.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Public report of the EU crack.
by John C. Randolph 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Well, well, well! So we gain a several allies in our battle against key-escrow, and lo and behold, it's all the *other* governments who don't want Uncle Sam to read their mail. I hope that any c'punks in foreign countries can make some politcal hay with this: "Don't let the yankee imperialists tell us a goddamn thing about crypto policy! They'll only use it to pull weasel moves in the trade talks!" Actually, it might be a good thing for Her Majesty's government to issue an advisory, saying not to buy US routers and encryption software, because it can't be trusted, under present US ITAR rules. -jcr

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NYtimes on " 'net telphony"
by Omegaman 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

An article I found on Internet Telephony today in the New York Times. reference: <http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/0805telephony.html> article also contained a diagram of a traditional Point-to-point synchronous phone call and a packet-switched Internet call which shoed pieces of a sentence being transferred over multiple routes. " _ Free Long Distance Phone Calls! (Computer Extra)_ By PETER H. LEWIS Sometimes Internet technology moves faster than the speed of sound. Nearly 400 Intel Corp. engineers were waiting for Brian Frank to stage a demonstration of Internet telephones last week at a business meeting in Oregon, when suddenly his laptop computer started ringing. Frank, a summer intern, had just finished loading new software that would let him place a phone call from his laptop to an associate's PC backstage. But before he could make the call, someone in Norway had seen Frank's network connection pop up on an Internet phone directory on the World Wide Web and dialed him up. " [..snip..] " For the Intel engineers, it was an industry wake-up call. Hitherto a hacker's hobby, the use of microphones and computers to place phone calls, send faxes and transmit pager signals over the Internet now seems ready to emerge as a serious business opportunity. " [..snip..] " Technical drawbacks still keep Internet telephony from being a true substitute for the good old, reliable telephone network. And yet, the number of regular Internet telephone users is expected to rise from fewer than 400,000 last year to 16 million by 1999, according to a forecast from the research company International Data Corp. By that year, IDC predicts, Internet telephony could constitute a $500 million market. Beyond cheap phone calls, the possible applications include: -- Catalogue shopping on the World Wide Web, where the customer could speak live with a sales agent. -- Work-team software that would enable groups working collaboratively on documents via the Internet to converse about the project, too. -- Adding voice capabilities to multiplayer computer games like "Doom" or "Quake," so that teammates could coach one another and jeer the opposition. " [..snip..] " In fact, Intel and Microsoft late last month jointly announced a set of technical standards that are intended to promote compatibility among various makes of hardware and software used in Internet telephony. " [..snip..] " "A lot of people look at Internet telephony as a replacement or alternative for long-distance service, and that's the most obvious use for it today," said Frederic H. Yeomans, marketing manager for Intel's Internet and communications group in Hillsboro, Ore. But Yeomans said the technology was advancing so quickly that new applications, possibly ones not yet imagined, would inevitably arise. " (hype? You make the call..) [..snip..] " Telephone companies appear to be divided over how to respond to the technological challenges. "Everyone would agree it's a compelling, alternative form of communication, and we're excited about it," said Mark Fisher, vice president for Pacific Bell Internet Services in San Francisco, a unit of the regional Bell holding company Pacific Telesis. " [..snip..] " Other, smaller phone companies are not as optimistic, and are mounting a legal and lobbying challenge to try to halt competition from the computer industry. " [..snip..] NYT-08-04-96 1932EDT Copyright 1996 The New York Times Company ... What follows is more hype about a "killer app" that will bring this technology to the forefront. Little is said about current bandwitdth limitations or PC technology limitations. Nothing is said of crypto technology either. me -------------------------------------------------------------- Omegaman <omega(a)bigeasy.com> PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 send a message with the text "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get a copy of my public key. --------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Stealth cookies
by jfricker＠vertexgroup.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Doubleclick was the company. They place banner ads on other pages that deliver a cookie header to your browser. Their trick is a script that delivers a cookie along with the graphic. Here's a sample from one of their own ads: Set-Cookie: IAF=x; path=/; expires=Wed, 09-Nov-99 23:59:00 GMT And right from the horses mouth: "DoubleClick has created the largest and most complete user and organization database on the Internet. DoubleClick is able to tell an incredible amount of information about a user, such as operating system, location, organization name, type, revenue, and size (click here for a more detailed description of target selection criteria). Along with sophisticated scheduling and our incredible DART software, DoubleClick is able to automatically and dynamically assign the best ad banner for a user." and "DoubleClick development ad banners are designed to capture more data about an individual or to attract potential advertisers, both of which ultimately benefit all DoubleClick Network member Web sites." Pomp and Puffery. But it makes the marketeers drool. As a user downloads more doubleclick banners, the cookie allows doubleclick to accumulate more crumbs in the form of url of the referring page. Just as traditional marketing demographics were founded on what magazines one subscribes, web advertising hopes to build demographics on what pages you view. Solution? 1) Don't put your name in the netscape configuration (d'oh) 2) make your cookie.txt file read only 3) use www.anonymizer.com when surfing Turning of "auto-load images" will not prevent the doubleclick cookie from being transmitted or recieved. aside note: there is a current cp archive at http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/ but it could use a local search tool. --j At 03:33 PM 8/5/96 -0500, you wrote: >There's been a thread here about some outfit that, by being referenced >from web documents here and there, would insert its cookie in your >browser even though you've never directly visited that site. I've >nuked any & all messages about that; if anybody recalls any details, >I'd be thankful for the information. > >______c_____________________________________________________________________ >Mike M Nally * Tiv^H^H^H IBM * Austin TX * For the time being, > m5(a)tivoli.com * m101(a)io.com * > <URL:http://www.io.com/~m101> * three heads and eight >arms. >

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Re: Internal Passports
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 1:28 AM 8/6/96, Ian Goldberg wrote: >So does anyone have any sort of "official" list as to what constitutes >"government-issued photo-id"? I'll be flying within California soon >(see you at Crypto...), as as a "furriner", I have no US ID. I do have >photo-id issued by _another_ government, though (a health card; I wonder >if they'll have heard of that...). > > - Ian "I'd try to be sure to get to the airport early, but the plane > leaves at some ridiculous time like 7:30am" As I recall, Ian, you are some kind of Damned Foreigner, a Canadian, and possibly a Jew (from a name like "Goldberg"). As such, your Canuck documents are worthless in these Beknighted States (at least until the memory of the single person killed in Atlanta fades...Atlantans are worth the lives of 100 lives of Third Worlders, which is why the single death in Atlanta justifies this crackdown). Perhaps if you coverted to either Southern Baptist or Mormon your stay here would be easier..... --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Ballistics
by JonWienk＠ix.netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Sun, 04 Aug 96, dlv(a)bwalk.dm.com (Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM) wrote: >Is there truth to the rumor that poking a file inside the barrel will >alter the marks on future test firings? A much better idea is to clean the barrel with a stiff wire brush. If you blue the inside of the barrel, and then brush the bluing off, that is enough. Alternatively/additionally, fire several hundred rounds with the weapon. Either will change the microscopic pattern of grooves sufficiently to cause a mismatch. Poking a file around in the barrel is a good way to ruin a gun. Changing barrels is a good idea as well. I can change the barrel on my Desert Eagle in about 15 seconds. A better idea yet is to fabricate a removable silencer (that can be attached/detached without modifying the barrel) with a wire brush surrounding the muzzle opening (similar to a batery terminal cleaner, but sturdier, of course) so that the bristles put their own marks on the bullet as it leaves the barrel. Even if the silencer is found, you will never be able to put it on aligned exactly the same way, and the marks will not line up exactly. Alternatively, you could mount the bristles on a bearing so they can rotate freely, so the patterns of marks constantly change as the brush rotates. Of course, getting caught with a silencer is a good way to go directly to jail without passing GO. Of course, if you are serious about avoiding this kind of hassle, you will mount a bag to the receiver of your gun to catch the fired shells, so that they aren't lying around for curious people to find. Jonathan Wienke "1935 will go down in history! For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the future!" --Adolf Hitler "46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. ...Consider the following statement: I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government." --The 29 Palms Combat Arms Survey http://www.ksfo560.com/Personalities/Palms.htm 1935 Germany = 1996 U.S.? Key fingerprint = 30 F9 85 7F D2 75 4B C6 BC 79 87 3D 99 21 50 CB

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Re: Cookies on Microsoft Explorer?
by David.K.Merriman.-.webmaster＠cygnus.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- To: cypherpunks(a)toad.com, aeisenb(a)duke.poly.edu Date: Tue Aug 06 10:30:17 1996 > > Does anyone know what the equivalent technology is on Microsoft to > Netscape's cookie technology? Does Microsoft have support for cookies > or > not? > > All of the discussion on the list to do with > cookies is related to Netscape. Does this mean that if one switches to > Microsoft Explorer one can avoid the problem? Many thanks. > > Anne Eisenberg > aeisenb(a)duke.poly.edu > > My MSIE3.0b2 does cookies - tho' I've told it to ask me if it's OK first :-) I've even got a specific _sub-directory_ for cookies under my Windows dir. I just wish I could automate the refuse-it-if-it-doesn't-expire "policy" I'm running under. Dave Merriman - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- PGP Email welcome and encouraged. Visit my web site at http://www.shellback.com/p/merriman for my PGP key and fingerprint "What is the sound of one hand clapping in a forest with no one there to hear it?" - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCNAi3uZ2MAAAEEALWQtxX77SZSaFls6cVbPp+fZS4MNyKK3ZFYQo0qWyj+0tMq YgRTPRJRaCQixo63RttknogfPp514qdVMZw5iPeOXmD+RxrmTTwlbGqA7QUiG1x5 LG2Zims5zk4U6/rt8hwLh0/8E4lIb9r5d31qc8L1A9Twk/cmN8VrTvyYOzAZAAUR tClEYXZpZCBLLiBNZXJyaW1hbiA8bWVycmltYW5AbWV0cm9uZXQuY29tPokAlQMF EC6sAl+SAziJlog3BQEBxX8D/05ub986Io1PaGJgDtVlbMOPh2pjdB3QSpA8T7bh ngpsTbogz7LnFY6nLTH24dVswnzRGzX2XYN2FXQzYLEKpbuJPF85620EqEJt7eck kDSr0MdCorCZ3ntHGlaRIEOG8En7r/NUxtPJSbeANHyKV0pZTJ0ZF3p71yAZoCU1 JJWoiQCVAwUQLqcRtKljmJBIq8VdAQFFCQQAidBWF05UfZ3HdLTZ2BjhkiztbHIL fCMVAzMkNobRLH0jcQ+o4N9Ny7gAP2bHreadCYQAiyx24LWZaWB+LkG48vVXvSa1 Zv+ksrEp19U30jReTaDHMRg2IDQ0S7T/+YykWf4cx/L4x0ll55zfT29THWHVqpeA 4w0PnSBJubMsG6iJAJUCBRAt7mhNxWtO/Jg7MBkBAWyPA/9BYsA3G33jcg1SfuxC Fh4yMVZCBrvgK2FBJZUdxkgR1WfVYe5/GzV3jRzJxuXGdt0yzFb8HsocRUvnA4vi O6Jngza+seuc+dNC8X1LyyuW0rkogVZE6ds/v4qI2P+uticCh8xBLp7ieAjvGIcc tdQnXrMxF+w6V80cSy/dqxJjtg== =WVf6 - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgauP8VrTvyYOzAZAQH6sQP/U8kaDIUG1VrPqqaLaXLfvS0M3bpk8fq+ YUjVEbg94qTXZeCuw+D7dKbVOtX0WiFFcvqsrTtHfZPWZQ8uHPkgAX0EHpoPoOR4 Dx44XoZrHm/fYlQV7GJh5bxB4qrRg7a4ciJ9lSHfs1tCERy6U5R687rhizS3kJYm SOR3MBilsTE= =OawJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) (fwd)
by gimonca＠skypoint.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 17:33:17 -0700 > From: jfricker(a)vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) > Subject: Re: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) > Before this gets too out of hand, I'm going to mention that Chris Hibbert's Social Security Number FAQ (posted regularly to several newsgroups, including news.answers) is superb. Great job of separating legitimate paranoia from old wives' tales. Check for it in Usenet or your favorite search engine. Remember--privacy is your own responsibility. > At 12:59 PM 8/5/96 -0700, you wrote: > >Black Unicorn wrote: > >> > >[ ...random losers asking for your SSN... ] > >> > I was horrified and gave a random number. > >> > >> You should always be horrified, and always give a random number. > > > >Well, it would be nice if it was that easy. You (legally) need to give > >the correct one to anyone who has to make a report about you to the IRS, > >right? Such as your employer. But it's not always clear who else needs > >it. > > Originally the 1939 ('37?) Social Security Act explicitly stated that the > SSN could not be used for anything except SSA matters. Times apparently have > changed or perhaps it's just de facto legislation by complicity. > >

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Re: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) (fwd)
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 2:34 AM 8/6/96, Charles Gimon wrote: >Forwarded message: >> Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 17:33:17 -0700 >> From: jfricker(a)vertexgroup.com (John F. Fricker) >> Subject: Re: SSNs (was Re: Internal Passports) >> > >Before this gets too out of hand, I'm going to mention that Chris >Hibbert's Social Security Number FAQ (posted regularly to several >newsgroups, including news.answers) is superb. Great job of >separating legitimate paranoia from old wives' tales. Check for it >in Usenet or your favorite search engine. I _know_, Chris Hibbert. Chris Hibbert is a _friend_ of mine. And this is not just old wives' tales. (w apologies to the Texas senator) --Tim Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: Internal Passports
by jfricker＠vertexgroup.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 07:37 PM 8/5/96 -0700, you wrote: >At 1:01 AM 8/6/96, Duncan Frissell wrote: > >>The SS resists issuing new numbers in spite of widespread duplication and >>theft. Soon people will find themselves denied the right to work in this >>country unless the SS reverses this reluctance. If your SS# is stolen and >>used "too many times" in a future worker verification program, you're >>screwed. And there won't even be any welfare for you. >> >>Use Alta Vista to find the SS Number FAQ. There's more stuff. > >BTW, I attempted to comply with the law in a recent request posted to >ba.jobs.offered and scruz.general: I solicited workers for some brush >clearing on my place, but advised them to only apply if--appearing to be >Hispanic, Latin, Mexican, or otherwise unOfficial--they provided proof of >their legal ability to work for me. > Hmmm. Actually a long time ago I lost my job with Greenpeace out of refusal to sign an I-9 which was in '86 the Department of Justice's form to exhibit eligibility to work in the US. The form required that I present two pieces of photo identification or a driver's license to be authenticated by my employer. Maybe it's a CA state law that adds an additional skin tone criterium to for the filing of an I-9. --j

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e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Stiffing, Stealth Conferences, Pieces of the True Cross, Stiffies, Grenades and Magic Feathers Robert Hettinga 8/5/96 The principal waste of my time and attention, for the last six weeks or so, has been my negotiations (or lack thereof) with an (as yet ;-)) unnamed cypherpunk (and company) about whether they're going to stiff (or not) Peter Cassidy, me, and two (as yet) unnamed other people, on the final payment (a moderately signigicant chunk of change) for some consulting work we did for them earlier this year. We accuse them of shooting the messenger, because their idea won't work. More to the point, they couldn't make it work even if a market was there. Which it isn't. For them, anyway. They accuse us of gross incompetence. Interesting, because we punchlisted the entire contract (and voluminous addenda) before we shipped the report, have logs of them downloading *all* the source material and appendices, which we put on the server for them *long* before we started dunning them for a past due invoice. Not to mention Peter's written more *published* articles on topics like this (in places, like, say, the Economist) in the last *year* than most people *write* about *anything* in their entire lifetimes. And, of course, they *aren't* going with the business idea they hired us to check out in the first place. Go figure. May you live in interesting times, the chinese curse goes, and things have gotten interesting enough for me lately, thank you very much. I finally decided to unwrap myself emotionally this week from this particular "interesting time", "modulo" (to quote the aforementioned unnamed cypherpunk) real (or imagined :-)) "other" measures our legal help says we can take, should the inevitable stiffing (or not) occur, and concentrate on other stuff, "modulo" my time spent in further negotiations about being stiffed (or not). Clearly, I've been talking with legal types too much lately. Speaking of which, someday, I want to write another non-repudiation rant. Code and Reputation instead of Law and Force, and all that. But not now. We still might work this out. I hope. So, in the background of the aforementioned stiffing (or not), Vinnie Moscaritolo and I have been working on a project, something we've been talking about since January or so. We wanted to throw a small Macintosh crypto conference. Tim Dierks, of Consensus (and ex- Apple DTS, where Vinnie now works), buttonholed Vinnie in a coffee shop a while back, and proposed that we "stealth" the crypto conference idea into one about digital commerce. Seeing as how both Vinnie and I gibber about "Digital Commerce is Financial Cryptography" and all, it was fine by us. Along about June (July?) or so, Vinnie, ever the mil-spec, surreptitiously obtained the necessary sack of grenades and started paddling in towards the beach in a rubber raft, inviting us to mop-up festivities the next morning at dawn. Next thing we all knew, he had scheduled an Apple conference facility in Cupertino for 2 days, the 5th and 6th of September, a Thursday and Friday, and he may have even gotten Apple to spring for groceries, though Those with Proper Budgetary Authority might have gotten hit by a grenade or two, and they (the groceries) could be MIA. Fortunately, this activity has been entirely a ground-up exercise on the developers' part, so going dutch for lunch probably won't scare anyone off, one way or the other. We could probably hold it in a Chuck-E-Cheese and fill the room, people are that interested in internet commerce, and crypto, on the Mac. And those little gophers, of course... Meanwhile, also in my, heh, copious, free time, (did I tell you I'm also pitching sponsors for FC97? :-)), I've been working on a Mac-e$ rant with Vinnie. Collaberation is Hard. But, it looks like we're just about through. Real Soon Now. Kind of reminds me of the late-1960's button which said "Freedom Soon". In the process, said rant has turned into some kind of Magnum Opus, which makes me nervous, with contributions from a couple of other people besides Vinnie and myself. And, no, the one you're reading isn't it. :-). But it's coming. Soon. We hope. All of which brings up the *real* point of this rant. I mean, who *cares* if you can do crypto on the Mac or not? Why not stand back and watch the MacRubble bounce? My thinking about all of this started because I've been reading Vinnie's mail over his shoulder. (Yes. I'm shameless. When we're working on stuff together, we trade our mail about it. As they say in the Mac biz, "Sosumi".) That is, Vinnie's been out there scaring up speakers for this shindig that he "borrowed" the grenades for, and, well, in his tree-shaking (God help you if Vinnie shakes a tree you're in), he invites (if you could call what Vinnie sent an invitation :-)) Yet *Another* Nameless Cypherpunk (YANC) to come and give us what we hope would be a Patented Colorful Cypherpunk crypto-Peptalk, with Vinnie saying to him (YANC), in effect, we need him (YANC) for a proper Laying-On of Hands, him being a Piece of the True Crypto Cross, and all. Of course, Vinnie didn't stand a chance. If we *could* consider Vinnie for it, (which we can't, because he's on the selection committee) he might have earned the coveted 1996 Black Rhino "Mr. Kevlar" award (for courage in the face of imaginary gunfire) for his efforts. Actually, considering the, heh, caliber, of last year's winner, it's just as well. A, uh, bang-up job Mr. Weinstein of Netscape did last year. A hard one to top. And so, the search continues. Both for this year's "Mr. Kevlar", and, of course, for some other Piece of the True Cross. Or so we think. I'll get to that in a moment. What Vinnie got from Yet Another Nameless Cypherpunk, instead of "Yes, I'll come talk about crypto, the universe, and everything.", was Yet Another Rendition of the Apple Macintosh Massacree. In six-part ;-) harmony, of course. And, no, I won't sing it here in its 21-minute (not even 17 for radio) entirety. However, I should really note here that no matter how reasoned and cogent YANC's arguments were (and cogent they were, too: upon reading them, I was halfway to the dumpster with my trusty old PB180, tears in my eyes, before I came to my senses), in general, one of the *big* reasons that Vinnie got the $0$AD ($ame Old $ong And Dance) Re the Future of the Mac as a Viable Platform was probably more because the aforementioned YANC has eschewed speaking opportunities like this for years anyway, and Vinnie probably didn't ask him with the Proper Deference Necessary for a Cypherpunk of That Stature. In fact, I *know* Vinnie didn't, because I read his mail ;-). However, that, of course, wasn't why YANC gave Vinnie the aforementioned Massacree in particular. YANC Massacreed Vinnie because there's a lot of *very* disappointed Mac users out there, YANC being a prominent example thereof. Love the computer. Hate the company. Hell hath no fury like a Mac user (not to mention shareholder) scorned. Heck. I understand *that*. I did the *same* thing just over a year ago this week. "Platforms are Meat", and all that. For what it's worth, YANC, I *feel* your pain... :-). So, I repeat, why *not* stand back and let the MacRubble bounce? No, this is not a segue for me to stand up in my chair and start singing the Apple Company Song at the top of my lungs, complete with a QuickDraw-VR DOOM environment file of One Infinite Loop right up there on the screen for y'all to marvel at and play with using your very own Newtons, all while I sing 100 Company Song verses with a six-part MIDI chorus of my own voice (Yechhh!). Nope. Not me. Indeed, I really *do* say, "Why not?". That is, let's look at what happens if people *don't* develop crypto for the Mac. The truth is folks, not much. First of all, we all think it'll be Real Bad News for Apple Real Soon if real-live strong cryptography isn't shoved as far down as it's possible to make it go into the Mac's operating system, and right now, dammit. But, so *what*? The Mac's only, say, 5-7% of the computer market anyway, and the only possibly new, cool, stuff Apple's involved in, say, OpenDoc/Cyberdog, has 5%, maybe 10%, of *that*, so, who *cares*? Potential Mac crypto developers aren't effecting that many people at *all*. They would better spend their time doing CryptoJava++ or something, because there's *much* more market penetration *there*. Or, even better, developers should go do CAPI for Windows. I mean, that's where the *real* money is, right? So fergadaboudit, go write CAPI-code, I mean, Microsoft Gets The Internet Now, right? At least there'll be *active* developer support from the MotherShip, which is better than whatcha get from Apple ferchrissakes <He said, ducking a mysteriously appearing grenade fusilade from Vinnie's general direction. Can someone tell me *how* he pulls the pins and throws them all at once like that?>. But, as bad as all this is, lack of strong crypto is not nearly that much of a Mac-Killer, or more to the point, an Apple-Killer. (Love the Machine, Hate the Company, remember?) What's killing Apple is Apple's sclerotic management style, and, frankly, too much living high off the hog when margins were fat. Of course, you never know. Apple could just keep cranking out more and more machines, at smaller and smaller market shares, ad infinitum. Look at Porsche (remember Ferry Porsche and what a "disaster" the Volkswagen was?), or Rolls-Royce. Personally, I would bet that, *if* the Sclerotic Apple scenario's the case, then jumping with both feet into crypto, and by extension, financial cryptography and digital commerce, could add a few more years to Apple's lifetime, but all that money might just go straight to Apple's waistline *anyway* (at 360lbs soaking wet, *I* should talk...), and make the end, if it occurs, even that much more grotesque. ( Yeah, but what a way to go... Fat Power! ;-)) And, yet, Vinnie's probably going to fill the room on September 5th and 6th. Hell, he might even fill Chuck-E-Cheese to boot. How come? Because, even though the market share is small, there's just enough there to support the small developers who made the Mac a great machine in the first place. There's a guy in Germany named Ruf. I still think he's around. Don't ask me how to say his name. What he does is buy brand-new Porsche 911s, fresh from the factory, and "blueprints" them. That is, he takes them all apart, down to the nuts and bolts, and rebuilds them *exactly* to the original design specifications, remachining metal where necessary. You can imagine that, with Porsches, there isn't much tolerence for production errors to begin with, but blueprint them Mr. Ruf does. After he does that, he tweaks them with all the aftermarket go-fast stuff it's possible to cram onto the little 30-year-old 911 design, some of which he's invented himself. After he's done, they really do. Go fast, I mean. Usually, his tweaky stuff gets onto his cars, now sold under the "Ruf" brand name, *waay* before it gets adopted for production 911s. Mr. Ruf has been doing this for a long time. His cars go for twice or three times what a production 911 goes for, if you can imagine paying that much for a *very* fast Porsche 911. He has a very long waiting list. He sells, say, 10 cars a year. He makes out like a bandit. And he *loves* his job. There're a whole bunch of guys around Stuttgart who do this kind of stuff. And *they* love their jobs, too. That's why Vinnie's going to fill that room in Cupertino. (On the 5th and 6th of September, remember?) First of all, the developers who are left in the Mac market are there because they love it. The old guys, who, like me, can't get it up anymore, still hack Macs because they love them. The *new* developers hack Macs because they can't get leave it *alone* and don't know from market share anyway. They just love what they're doing. <heh, heh. He said "get it up", Bevis> <heh, heh. Yeah. And up there, Butthead, he said "Stiffy"> <No, Bevis. He said "Stiffing"> <Oh, yeah. heh, heh. *I* knew that...> Mssrs. B & B aside, who *knows* what the women Mac developers feel, young or old, because I'm not one. Or a woman, for that matter. :-). But I *bet* they're there because *they* love the Mac, too. And, of course, *all* of the Mac crypto developers also understand the importance of strong cryptography to digital commerce, so they want to make sure the Mac has it, if they have to do it themselves, just like Mr. Ruf and his friends blueprint those brand-new Porsche 911s. So, finally, I'm going to pull out a dusty old story from the Disney Canon: Dumbo. <Oh, No! Not the Dumbo story!!! Not Again!!!> Yes. The Dumbo story. Again. Remember that Dumbo had a magic feather, given to him by the crows, so that he could fly, which of course, he didn't really need, because he could fly already, he just didn't know it. Yes, boys and girls, Vinnie and the Mac crypto developers wanted, in fear of that 900-foot drop into a teeeny bucket of water, to have Yet Another Nameless Cypherpunk, A Piece of the True Crypto Cross, be a magic feather. So they could fly. Well, it looks like Vinnie, and all those room-filling Chuck-E-Cheese- Gopher-Banging Mac crypto developers will have to use their ears (or what's between them, anyway) to fly instead. Only this time, Dumbo's got a sack of grenades. A "munition" indeed... Cheers, Bob Hettinga <Heh, heh. Uh, anyone out there got a magic feather, uh, just in case?> <Shut *up*, Bevis!> <Owwwwww! My *'Nads*!> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMgbH1PgyLN8bw6ZVAQGkrQP9GyrOI9NWlookyXQdbfdjmC437fxNbQuQ g3CHsGMi4uhqO1UO6dF71XO7Osh57n//cVKF52Tv3b2UpOU3khtj15ASH7sOLaMs KwDQYvNta1I/nL1k9L8mAnNUfEdkttfhqgKjDwB5nKvwwJqbOemG60Bz6jKzCO5T cXOXOcEVyLE= =Fjkr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "'Bart Bucks' are not legal tender." -- Punishment, 100 times on a chalkboard, for Bart Simpson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/

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Re: Credit Cards over the internet
by Alan Olsen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 02:46 PM 8/5/96 -0800, Vinnie Moscaritolo wrote: >Just read a forwarded message from a merchant who indicated that: {credit card hastles deleted] I have been having some similar hastles setting up a site for credit card usage. It seems that the credit card companies are confused between protecting cards over the net and validating credit card information. (Two entirly different problems.) The broker we are going through seems to have gotten a few clues, but it is taking ALOT of explaining. (The site will be running Stronghold when we are able to process credit cards. We are currently running Apache 1.1.) Actually I am having a harder time getting through to the sysadmin at the host site why we need a commerce server than I am with the credit card company... It sounds like the scare stories on the news have taken their toll. --- Alan Olsen -- alano(a)teleport.com -- Contract Web Design & Instruction `finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ "We had to destroy the Internet in order to save it." - Sen. Exon "Microsoft -- Nothing but NT promises."

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Re: Stop the presses -- Anti-terrorism bill not that bad
by Alan Horowitz 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Tue, 6 Aug 1996 hallam(a)Etna.ai.mit.edu wrote: > Several years ago the IRA attempted to murder my cousin. I have been > warned not to continue my political activity but I do so regardless. > > I do not advocate the bringing of troops onto the streets but I see > it as the logicial response to the case put by the NRA. They are > playing a tune I have heard before. Claim to stand for freedom while > doing whatever is possible to encourage restriction of liberty. I have added you to my computerized list of individuals who advocate the violent overthrow of the US Constitution. I am going to go to the law library and see what my options are, with respect to filing a petition to have you deported out of the United States. This is not a rhetorical statement.

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Re: Cookies on Microsoft Explorer?
by Alan Olsen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 03:48 PM 8/5/96 -0400, you wrote: > >Does anyone know what the equivalent technology is on Microsoft to >Netscape's cookie technology? Does Microsoft have support for cookies or >not? Internet exploder 3.0 supports cookies. >All of the discussion on the list to do with >cookies is related to Netscape. Does this mean that if one switches to >Microsoft Explorer one can avoid the problem? Many thanks. There is no escape. Resistance is futile. You will be server pushed, filed, tracked, counter digited, and numbered. You are not a free individual, you are an IP address assigned from a dynamic pool. Be seeing you! --- |"Computers are Voodoo -- You just have to know where to stick the pins."| |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano(a)teleport.com |

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Re: Censorship through proxy
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 4:23 PM 8/6/96, Joel McNamara wrote: >SingNet, one of Singapore's larger ISPs is telling all of their subscribers >they must move to using SingNet's proxy server by September 14, 1996 if they >want to have access to the Web. > >If you try to access one of the SBA's banned sites, you'll get a message >that says, "The site you requested is not accessible." > >Check out: > >http://www.singnet.com.sg/cache/sbareg.html Sing Sing (the country is now a prison, so...) is one of the states we should think about targetting for "special attention." Not in the sense of violence, but in the sense of offering help to freedom fighters, those who want to use stego, web proxies, etc. I wonder what would happen if "Computers, Freedom, and Privacy '98" was held in Sing Sing? --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: More to be paranoid about...
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 01:50 PM 8/4/96 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote: >At 10:14 PM 8/3/96 -0700, you wrote: >>Take a look at: >> http://www.spiritone.com/cgi-bin/plates >>Feed it an Oregon licence plate number and it will feed you back all sorts >>of info about the person/victim. > >It's interesting to know that Senator Hatfield's wife's birthday >is 1/17/29, and that the title to the car is held with a >security interest by the US SENATE EMPLOYEES FEDERAL CREDIT, >and that (at least) Social Security Numbers weren't listed >for the plates I checked. Also that, unlike many states, >the Governor doesn't have License Plate #1. It turns out that I am indirectly (two steps removed) responsible for this information being publicized on the 'net. I bought a copy of a CDROM that included this data (from a person who bought this data from the State of Oregon on magtape), and a friend of mine got a copy from me and made a copy for his friend, who decided to put it on the web as an accessible item. In any case, contrary to Alan Olsen's implication, I think that this kind of thing is a step forward for freedom. Government agencies already have access to this kind of information whenever they want; it's only the individuals who don't. Indeed (as my friend pointed out, correctly) this information is only considered valuable because not everyone has it. Making this information available puts government-types under the same "gun" as the rest of us already were. It is now being seen that driver's licenses, while ostensibly merely being a certification that we know how to drive, are most useful to government as a way to "legitimately" collect information on us, including our address and age. Since the function of credentialing is being implemented using encryption in ways to protect privacy, I suggest that we should push the government in that direction. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Looking for CJ's or State Dept. correspondence re "public domain"
by John Gilmore 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

We got a brief last week from the State Department in the Bernstein case (in which we're trying to overturn the crypto export controls on First Amendment grounds). They state: "In fact, the State Department does not seek to control the various means by which information is placed in the public domain. Lowell Decl, para. 22. The Department does not review scientific information to determine whether it may be offered for sale at newsstand and bookstores, through subscriptions, second-class mail, or made available at libraries, or distributed at a conference or seminar in the United States. Id. "These clear examples are included in the ITAR to enable individuals to determine for themselves whether particular information is subject to regulation as technical data. Indeed, individuals rarely -- if ever -- seek a determinatino from the Department as to whether information is in the public domain, and the regularions are not applied to establish a prepublication review requirement for the general publication of scientific information in the United States." I am wondering if anyone else has ever sent in a CJ request that sought to determine whether the item in question was considered "public domain" by the State Department. Several CJ's of this type can be found near the bottom of my crypto export web page, at ftp://ftp.cygnus.com/pub/export/export.html. Has anyone else had interactions with the State Department about the "public domain" status of anything? Please let me know. -- John Gilmore gnu(a)toad.com -- gnu(a)eff.org RESTRICTED Notice. - This document contains information affecting the national defense of the United States within the meaning of the Espionage Act (U.S.C. 50: 31, 32). The transmission of this document or the revelation of its contents in any manner to any unauthorized person is prohibited.

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Re: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

[Note: My analysis of Apple Computer, and why I will not give a "pep talk" to certain Apple Macintosh folks, is contained at the _end_ of this piece. Skip forward if you like, or read my response to Bob H. to get the background on why I am posting this.] At 4:20 AM 8/6/96, Robert Hettinga wrote: [much stuff elided] >All of which brings up the *real* point of this rant. I mean, who *cares* if >you can do crypto on the Mac or not? Why not stand back and watch the >MacRubble bounce? > >My thinking about all of this started because I've been reading Vinnie's >mail over his shoulder. (Yes. I'm shameless. When we're working on stuff >together, we trade our mail about it. As they say in the Mac biz, "Sosumi".) >That is, Vinnie's been out there scaring up speakers for this shindig that >he "borrowed" the grenades for, and, well, in his tree-shaking (God help you >if Vinnie shakes a tree you're in), he invites (if you could call what >Vinnie sent an invitation :-)) Yet *Another* Nameless Cypherpunk (YANC) to >come and give us what we hope would be a Patented Colorful Cypherpunk >crypto-Peptalk, with Vinnie saying to him (YANC), in effect, we need him >(YANC) for a proper Laying-On of Hands, him being a Piece of the True Crypto >Cross, and all. I have to assume you are referring to me, as I had an exchange with Vinnie which resembles this. As you were given "over the shoulder" access to mail I sent to Vinnie, by all accounts, I certainly will have no qualms forwarding my correspondence on this issue to this list. >Of course, Vinnie didn't stand a chance. If we *could* consider Vinnie for >it, (which we can't, because he's on the selection committee) he might have >earned the coveted 1996 Black Rhino "Mr. Kevlar" award (for courage in the Oh, he "had a chance." He just wasn't very persuasive. And given that I don' think crypto needs to be tied to the Macintosh platform (which is dead, even though it hasn't yet topped over, and even though people like me continue to use it), more is needed than "We need you." I'm not big on charity, and Apple is truly a charity case. >face of imaginary gunfire) for his efforts. Actually, considering the, heh, >caliber, of last year's winner, it's just as well. A, uh, bang-up job Mr. >Weinstein of Netscape did last year. A hard one to top. And so, the search >continues. Both for this year's "Mr. Kevlar", and, of course, for some other >Piece of the True Cross. Or so we think. I'll get to that in a moment. > >What Vinnie got from Yet Another Nameless Cypherpunk, instead of "Yes, I'll >come talk about crypto, the universe, and everything.", was Yet Another >Rendition of the Apple Macintosh Massacree. In six-part ;-) harmony, of >course. And, no, I won't sing it here in its 21-minute (not even 17 for Clever writing, to some, but empty of calories. My "Massacree" will be included at the end of this message. Judge for yourself. >radio) entirety. However, I should really note here that no matter how >reasoned and cogent YANC's arguments were (and cogent they were, too: upon >reading them, I was halfway to the dumpster with my trusty old PB180, >tears in my eyes, before I came to my senses), in general, one of the *big* >reasons that Vinnie got the $0$AD ($ame Old $ong And Dance) Re the Future of >the Mac as a Viable Platform was probably more because the aforementioned >YANC has eschewed speaking opportunities like this for years anyway, and >Vinnie probably didn't ask him with the Proper Deference Necessary for a >Cypherpunk of That Stature. In fact, I *know* Vinnie didn't, because I read >his mail ;-). However, that, of course, wasn't why YANC gave Vinnie the >aforementioned Massacree in particular. Your future as a mind reader, Bob, is limited. It is true that I avoid some speaking engagements which appear to be "hype" and "pep talks." But I also have elected to give a few talks, incuding one in Monte Carlo which took me several weeks to prepare for, and one at CFP '95, arranged by our own Prof. Michael Froomkin. >YANC Massacreed Vinnie because there's a lot of *very* disappointed Mac >users out there, YANC being a prominent example thereof. Love the computer. >Hate the company. Hell hath no fury like a Mac user (not to mention >shareholder) scorned. Heck. I understand *that*. I did the *same* thing just >over a year ago this week. "Platforms are Meat", and all that. For what it's >worth, YANC, I *feel* your pain... :-). I'm not sure what you're drinking, but you might want to lay off for a few hours before sitting down to write. >So, I repeat, why *not* stand back and let the MacRubble bounce? No, this is >not a segue for me to stand up in my chair and start singing the Apple >Company Song at the top of my lungs, complete with a QuickDraw-VR DOOM >environment file of One Infinite Loop right up there on the screen for y'all >to marvel at and play with using your very own Newtons, all while I sing 100 >Company Song verses with a six-part MIDI chorus of my own voice (Yechhh!). >Nope. Not me. Indeed, I really *do* say, "Why not?". That is, let's look at >what happens if people *don't* develop crypto for the Mac. > >The truth is folks, not much. I agree. Not much to be done about Apple. Too bad, but it's not something I can do much about. I've known some of the early Apple folks since 1977, and first invested in them in 1984. (Though I sold 90% of my stock in Apple a year or so ago, at $45, well above its current level.) In 1986, upon my departure from Intel, I bought a Macintosh Plus, the closest thing I could afford to a Symbolics 3600. (Interesting note: a friend of mine said she just saw an ad for a Symbolics: $100 takes it away. Except for the likelihood that it would cost far more per month to run it, I'd buy it. Maybe I still will....) Then I bought a Mac IIci, a Powebook 100, a Powerbook 170, and then a Power Macintosh 7100av. Mostly I've been happy, as I had access to a windows environment (before Microsoft tried to patent the name "windows"), visual metaphor (a la my Symbolics), and an adequate supply of programs, including: Excel, Photoshop, Painter, Eudora, etc., all of which made their appearance on Macs before on Windows. However, the same windows/Lisp machine/Xerox/Smalltalk appearance which Apple stole from the Xerox and MIT machines is now available in robust form in the form of Windows NT machines, with huge market share and incredible performance. (I am "loyal" to the computing metaphor, not to the current market Apple has.) >First of all, we all think it'll be Real Bad News for Apple Real Soon >if real-live strong cryptography isn't shoved as far down as it's possible >to make it go into the Mac's operating system, and right now, dammit. But, As my message to Vinnie (below) points out, Apple blew a couple of chances it has to incorporate crypto and security. For one, it announced some sort of System 7 signature system...like a lot of Apple announcements, nothing more was heard of it and it today merits not even the slightest footnote. Second, Apple could've _owned_ the "Internet telephony" market which Intel (!!!!!) is now touting so highly: Macintosh AC models (660av. 640av, all PowerMacs) had extensive audio in/out capabilities, with DSP or CPU powers sufficient to implement secure teleconferencing. Instead, we got me-too products like "E-World," a now-defunct proprietary version of Prodigy, and countless other "detour" products, including OpenTransport, GeoPort, speech recognition (which doesn't really work, at least not on my $5K Mac), the Newton, and endless catchily-named Apple products. >so *what*? The Mac's only, say, 5-7% of the computer market anyway, and the >only possibly new, cool, stuff Apple's involved in, say, OpenDoc/Cyberdog, >has 5%, maybe 10%, of *that*, so, who *cares*? Potential Mac crypto >developers aren't effecting that many people at *all*. They would better >spend their time doing CryptoJava++ or something, because there's *much* >more market penetration *there*. Or, even better, developers should go do >CAPI for Windows. I mean, that's where the *real* money is, right? So >fergadaboudit, go write CAPI-code, I mean, Microsoft Gets The Internet Now, >right? At least there'll be *active* developer support from the MotherShip, >which is better than whatcha get from Apple ferchrissakes <He said, ducking >a mysteriously appearing grenade fusilade from Vinnie's general direction. >Can someone tell me *how* he pulls the pins and throws them all at once >like that?>. Bob, your rants lose effect when mixed with this Hunter S. Thompsonesque writing style (" <He said, ducking a mysteriously appearing grenade fusilade ..."). Maybe this comes from too much time spent in front of a Macintosh? [much more stuff elided] >That's why Vinnie's going to fill that room in Cupertino. (On the 5th and >6th of September, remember?) First of all, the developers who are left in >the Mac market are there because they love it. The old guys, who, like me, >can't get it up anymore, still hack Macs because they love them. The *new* >developers hack Macs because they can't get leave it *alone* and don't know >from market share anyway. They just love what they're doing. Well, if you "can't get it up anymore," to use your words, maybe it's time for you to move on to something else? >Well, it looks like Vinnie, and all those room-filling Chuck-E-Cheese- >Gopher-Banging Mac crypto developers will have to use their ears (or what's >between them, anyway) to fly instead. > >Only this time, Dumbo's got a sack of grenades. Well, good luck. For me, giving a pep talk to a bunch of tired old Mac developers at a Chuck-E-Cheese--especially when I went to the first one, in San Jose, in 1977-78--does not excite me in the slightest. After all, it's not as if Apple people cannot come to the Bay Area Cypherpunks meetings (I know of only one current Apple employee on our mailing list, actively, or who attends meetings: Martin Minow). I refuse to accept any burden of guilt for not volunteering to speak for 30 minutes at a conference which is poorly-defined to me and which would cover material the attendees could get by subscribing to our list for a few days or weeks or by attending a physical Cypherpunks meeting in the Valley. I'm sorry (for Vinnie, never for me) that Vinnie is pissed off at me for not helping out at his Let's Save Apple conference, and that Bob feels it necessary to rant about this Mysterious Cypherpunk who won't Help the Cause. Life is tough. I'm available as a consultant, of course, and Apple is, as always, free to hire me as a consultant. Attached below is my major response to Vinnie. I would not have raised the issue here on this list, except for Bob's post. Take it or leave it. --Tim At 9:52 PM 7/23/96, Vinnie Moscaritolo wrote: >Cut the Bullshit, Tim; I normally don't respond to anyone who tells me to "Cut the Bullshit," "Knock it off," etc. In fact, I deleted your message as soon as I saw this....then a few minutes later I elected to retrieve it from Eudora's trash folder before I had emptied the Trash. I'll respond here, but not to "dammits" and "Knock it offs." If you want to calmly discuss things, fine. Otherwise, I'll just add you to my filter file. No harm done. >I am having to pull teeth and do this a guerilla effort, but dammit If I >have to do it alone I will. SO DONT GIVE ME THIS "I was not welcome on the >list" crap, what I am trying to avoid is folks like dave weiner. who >just bitch and dont offer any solutions. Most of what you say IS EDUCATED >and needs to be heard. Tim if you sent me a message saying you want to be >on the list, I would stop what I was doing and put you on in a second.. I'm not surprised you are having trouble pulling this together, for several good reasons: 1. Apple is struggling, developers are focussing on Windows. 2. Crypto for the Mac is really dependent on a couple of main apps: mail programs (Eudora, Claris E-Mailer, Lotus Notes, etc.) and Web browsers (obvious name here). If you want Apple to be "in the game" on crypto, as it clearly is not now, ask Claris why they are not supporting PGP or S/MIME. 3. And crypto is not really a "Macintosh" issue. The best programs are now platform-neutral. 4. A "guerilla" program, absent a compelling need, is likely to generate little support. 5. "Internet commerce" is indeed a Big Issue (and of course a massively hyped issue). But it is unlikely in the extreme that the Mac could ever be a central player...the focus is on Web browsers and other tools that represent 95% of what Web users have. (Don't tell me about CyberDog...less than 10% of the market has Macs, and probably less than 10% of them have installed CyberDog. I don't personally know any Mac users planning to use it. This may change, of course, but at this point its prospects are not too bright.) My point is simple: if your conference is the effective realization of the goals of your Mac-Crypto mailing list, as appears to be the case (at least to me), then I can't see how my discussion of political issues would be consistent with your insistence that Mac-Crypto avoid issues that don't involve coding. (And I would not welcome the attention I might get at Apple if I were to discuss what I know of "information liberation," including the NuPrometheus League.) Friends of mine have been called by P.I.s investigating this case.) >>No "solution" predominantly on the Mac is a solution for the masses, who >>are overwhelmingly using Windows today. (You surely know this...your >>company is struggling to hold 5-7% of the new sales figure; you haven't >>been above 10% for several years.) >> > >so why do YOU use a mac? or do you. I use a Mac, primarily these days to run Netscape, Eudora Pro, and a handful of related tools. None of these are Mac-specific anymore, and in fact the Mac is way behind in a lot of ways (e.g., automatic signing of messages). The Mac has perhaps 8-10% of the installed base, and something less than this in terms of new sales. Of this 10% (charitably), I doubt more than 10% has installed and used "CyberDog." So, perhaps 1% of users have access to this (at least at this time). (I don't know the % of Web sites hosted on Macs, but I know the Mac is coming under fire there, too. Lack of "multi-homing," lack of Unix-type robustness, and the power of NT servers, from what I read. In any case, Web site hosting is not a major point of confluence with crypto issues. I know Sameer Parekh and folks like him would laugh if anyone suggested they host their sites on a Mac.) I've watched with growing incredulity and confusion as Apple has gone off on tangents which seem to have little value to its core customers. Sure, some of these have succeeeded (QuickTime for one), but many are just tangents, at least for the dozen or so home Mac users I know. For example, OpenTransport, GeoPort, Publish and Subscribe, OpenDoc, Interactive Music Toolkit, the Speech recognition stuff, and so on. Not to mention expensive detours into the Newton. (I don't fault Apple for pursuing these things; it's hard to know what will be the Next Big Thing and all. What I fault them for is having a confusing array of add-ons to the basic OS, with lots of confusion about what the advantages are. I, for example, use plain old System 7.1.2, an external 28.8 modem, and fairly standard apps and tools. I see no need for GeoPorts, OpenTransport, or any of that stuff. And when Apple stopped bundling the System software with machines, and making upgrades free, and generating multiple versions of System 7.5x, well, this all made my glad to just sit all this confusion out.) Can Apple do anything to "help crypto"? Not a thing, as near as I can tell. Eudora is _still_ not putting PGP or S/MIME in in Eudora Pro 3.0, and Netscape is doing whatever it is doing (as you know). Thus, all I care about is what Qualcomm does with Eudora and what Netscape does with Navigator. I don't care about what Apple puts in CyberDog, as I have no immediate plans to use it as my browser or my mailer. I think I represent about 80% or more of all Macintosh users, too. >>I just don't see the point of trying to educate Apple people on something >>so far from what they need to be doing. >> > >Point is put up or shut up, I am giving you a chance to be heard, I dont >give a flying hoot what you say, except that you make people aware of the >issues. Tim dont you know that outside of cp very little is known about >crypto-anarchy. and what it mean.. hey even if you hate the very essence of >apple, (and I know your don't) you can helpbe part of the solution instead >of part of the problem... > > >so whats it gonna be. I don't buy this notion that I have to choose to be part of the problem or part of the solution. Nothing Apple can do really matters at this point, as they've lost the leadership role they once had and are increasingly "marginalized." Crypto tools are platform-independent, ideally. Unless crypto tools and algorithms are "built in" in some very usable way to Copland, say, there just is no role for Apple. Sure, you lean on Steve Dorner at Qualcomm to get crypto into Eudora in a more central way, and work with Netscape in some way, but not much else is to be done. (And Apple dropped the ball a couple of years ago with the "digital signature" stuff they announced...I forget the name, but it was some kind of certificate-based system, probably called something typically Apple-ish like "OpenCertification" or somesuch. I think it was introduced in 1994 or so, about the time the 660av and 840av were rolled out. Nothing more has ever come of it, not too surprisingly.) And speaking of the av-series machines, and the later PPC machines (of course), Apple blew it by not developing this as an "Internet phone" sort of thing. Here they have had av-compatible machines (speakers, microphones, DSP functionality) for a few years, and yet Microsoft and Intel are grabbing the headlines with "Internet phone" systems! Jeesh. (This is not something that talking to the bottom-level troops at a "crypto" meeting can do, this indicates the complete lack of vision at higher levels.) Apple consistently blows its lead, and is now becoming irrelevant. (I don't plan to switch, so long as my Web-centric apps continue to run and updates are provided. And I have too many thousands of dollars tied up in Mac hardware, including the usuals several gigs of disk, CD-R, laser printer, Powerbooks, etc. So, it'll be several years before I have to switch. But that sure doesn't mean I have to be a cheerleader for a probably doomed system. I first bought Apple stock the day after the Mac was unveiled, on January 25th, 1984, and added to my holdings over the years. I finally dumped 90% of my shares last fall, for $45. And I'm glad I did. There is nothing Apple people can do to "help crypto" at this time. And the only thing they can do to help Apple survive is to do just that, help it survive. As for what that might be, at this late date, I'm fresh out of ideas. You may think this is Apple-bashing. I avoid bashing Apple in public, as the issues and themes are well-known to all. But you have framed your note to me as a call for me to "put up or shut up," implying I have some duty to help Apple and the Macintosh succeed. I do not. I am available as a consultant, of course. I doubt Apple needs more more consultant advising it on corporate strategies, but this option is open to you. --Tim Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce
by Erik E. Fair 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Just FYI, there is at least one other full-time Apple employee on this list. The previous digital signature stuff from Apple was part of PowerTalk, our own attempt to do an E-mail system as part of the base OS. We licensed the crypto stuff from RSA (as did Lotus and a bunch of others at about the same time). PowerTalk had good goals (full digital signatures, encrypted mail, etc), but an exceedingly bad plan for getting there (completely proprietary file formats and protocols, and incompletely fleshed out APIs for getting at them). Needless to say, it was a flop in the market, and we've let everyone know that we've stopped development of it. Fortunately, we still have that RSA license, and we may yet be able to do something useful with it before either the license or the patent expires. I keep pressing people about these issues when I get the chance, internally. I haven't made any of the face-to-face meetings of the Cypherpunks because I have been busy frying other fish since I got on the list. I post from this odd return address because I prefer to use my private system and domain for cypherpunks. At work, I'm Erik E. Fair <fair(a)research.apple.com> Apple Research Labs (nee Advanced Technology Group)

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Re: e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce
by shamrock＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 0:20 8/6/96, Robert Hettinga wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >e$: Watching the MacRubble Bounce Robert, you *really* need to cut back on that Ritalin. No, not just `one more'. Put it *away*. Now! ;-) -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred. Defeat the Demopublican Unity Party. Vote no on Clinton/Dole in November. Vote Harry Browne for President.

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