December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: [SCARE]: "If you only knew what we know..."
by jya＠pipeline.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Peter Cassidy, an esteemed subscriber here, is the Wired author Tim notes, who reports on the Bernstein case in the June issue. A well-written piece with several thought-provokings in addition to those cited by Tim. Peter writes of Judge Marilyn Hall Patel on the Bernstein case: "Before the case is resolved, Patel's skepticism of the state's perogatives will be tested to the limit when the government is called upon to defend its policy. Patel is then likely to be given the *in camera* presentation of The Deepest Darkest Secrets of Cryptography -- probably a modified version of the classifed briefing the NSA has used with great success to influence members of Congress. Legend has it that no one who ever got 'the briefing' ever again opposed the agency." Peter, anyone, are these welcome-to-the-inner-circle briefings always by NDA, or worse threat? Wonder if a public-spirited cryptographer is working on a book for a movie about this heart of the deepest darkness?

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Re: (Fwd) Re: TCM: mafia as a paradigm for cyberspace
by Sandy Sandfort 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ At 12:11 PM 5/23/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: >Tell ya what: name a weapon that CANNOT be used to harm an >innocent person. Go ahead, I'm waiting. The Truth? S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Re: [hrdware] anti-Tempest video settings
by norm＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 10:20 AM 5/10/96, Jean-Francois Avon wrote: >Hi again. > >Is there anybody that have any idea about a color setting that would >make it more difficult to detect by a Tempest attack? >(I assume that Tempest cannot discriminate between various color guns >and signals in the monitor... Maybe I am completely wrong...) .... I imagine that a color combination that cancels for an antenna in one location will not cancel for another location. Many monitors have separated wires for the separate colors. A color combination that cancels for one antenna polarization may not cancel for the other.

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VIRUS ALERT: Java virus that affects Netscape 2.0 & 2.01.
by gcg＠pb.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> >WHO IS AFFECTED BY THIS ALERT? >------------------------------ > >Users of Netscape Navigator 2.0 or 2.01. To determine what version of >Netscape you are running, do the following: > > 1. Open Netscape Navigator. > 2. Pull down the Help menu. > 3. Click on About Netscape. > 4. Check to see if you have version 2.0 or 2.01. If so, read on. > If not, then you can not be affected by this alert. > >WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? >-------------------- > >There have been reports lately of a hostile Java applet (a Black Widow >Java applet called JAVA) that is downloaded and executed automatically >when certain sites are visited with Netscape versions 2.0 or 2.01. Java >applets are small applications that are automatically started when you >access certain web pages. This particular Java applet is a malicious >program that can destroy data, interfere with your network, and possibly >even upload sensitive material to a third party. > >WHAT SHOULD YOU DO? >------------------- > >Upgrade to Netscape Navigator 2.02. > > >WHAT SHOULD YOU DO IF YOU CAN'T DOWNLOAD VERSION 2.02 RIGHT NOW? >---------------------------------------------------------------- > >You can temporarily protect your PC or Macintosh by disabling the Java >functionality. However, this should only be a short-term fix as many >legitimate web sites make use of Java applets. To disable the use of >Java applets, do the following: > > 1. Open Netscape Navigator. > 2. Pull down the Options menu. > 3. Click on Security Preferences. > 4. Under General, place a "X" in the Disable Java and the > Disable Java Script boxes in the Java window. Click on OK. > >After upgrading to the latest version of Netscape Navigator (version >2.02), re-enable the Java applets by doing the following: > > 1. Open Netscape Navigator. > 2. Pull down the Options menu. > 3. Click on Security Preferences. > 4. Under General, remove the "X" in the Disable Java and the > Disable Java Script boxes in the Java window. Click on OK. > >

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Re: Floating Point and Financial Software
by minow＠apple.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

A 64-bit floating point number (i.e., C double) should be suitable for financial software under the following conditions: -- Money must be represented in integral units (cents, not dollars and cents). -- The maximum value to be computed must be less than about 10^17. This includes intermediate values. -- Addition, subtraction, and multiplication by an integer are the only operators. Under the above conditions, there should be no loss of precision. However, when division is required (as in currency conversion or interest rate computation), one must be careful to control round-off error. For example, a mortage payment schedule might be computed using true (non-exact) floating-point arithmetic, with the last or first payment adjusted to cover any residual error. (You might want to re-read Donn Parker's book on computer crime, paying special attention to the "salami" method of embezzelment by accumulating round-off errors in a private account.) Note that not all financial computation needs to be done with "to the penny" accuracy: even our own dearly beloved IRS allows (indeed, encourages) us to compute our tax declaration using a whole-dollar round-off method. Martin Minow minow(a)apple.com

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Innocence & harmless weapons
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi Sandy et al., Whose side of the truth? To be honest I was surprised by your simplistic responce. Jim Choate Forwarded message: > From cypherpunks-errors(a)toad.com Thu May 23 16:01:31 1996 > Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960523200615.0072a288(a)popmail.crl.com> > X-Sender: sandfort(a)popmail.crl.com > X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:06:15 -0700 > To: jim bell <jimbell(a)pacifier.com> > From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort(a)crl.com> > Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: TCM: mafia as a paradigm for cyberspace > Cc: cypherpunks(a)toad.com > Sender: owner-cypherpunks(a)toad.com > Precedence: bulk > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > SANDY SANDFORT > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > At 12:11 PM 5/23/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: > > >Tell ya what: name a weapon that CANNOT be used to harm an > >innocent person. Go ahead, I'm waiting. > > The Truth? > > > S a n d y > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >

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Re: CLI_pr3
by jya＠pipeline.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On May 23, 1996 10:41:13, 'tcmay(a)got.net (Timothy C. May)' wrote: >Of course, this appears to be implying that _domestic_ data will be subject >to Clipper 3 restrictions, else this statement is meaningless. > >So, will my stored-value cards that I "charge up" in California and carry >in my wallet to Zurich be GAKked? If not, Morris's statement is >meaningless. If so, domestic data is intended to be GAKked. > >(But we knew this, didn't we?) Several news reports in the last few days seem to be aiming at raising the alarm about crypto, perhaps in response to the various crypto bills, administration reformulations, and studies such as that headed by Herb Lin. The recycling of the news of DoD break-ins supposedly due to heavy military reliance on the Internet; the drumbeat of conferences, press releases and planted stories on international money laundering, the hazards of E-money to the stability of the banking system, spreading "Russian" criminality, and the role of high-technology in each; global Chinese arms dealers and copyright pirates; thousands of Japanese spies needed to combat "Asian" threats. These scares might well be orchestrated in support of Clipper 3 -- to the mutual benefit of international governments and commerce as stated by the IWGCP report. The Clipper 3 report, as John Gilmore and others have noted, aims at an international clampdown on non-GAKed crypto. For this to work, all the major crypto players must agree to act at the same time so that no one gets an advantage by offering non-GAKed products. But is it not probable that there will be a holdout nation(s), like the Swiss in war and bank secrecy, to offer crypto that is non-GAKed? Or will a holdout be starved? Or is it more likely that the genuine alternative to multilateral governmental regulation is going to be small- scale, non-corporate, private parties, insusceptible to large-sacle governmental-market coercion, willing to offer risky, covert services, perhaps as lucrative as prohibited armaments? In such a case, for example, would not a highly skilled cryptographer, let us call her Mathilda Blaze, be able to sell covert crypto (on the side, encrypted transactions, anonymity assured) for far greater reward than a not-very- secure pittance and pension at a downsizing ATT, or NSA, or Russia, China, Israel, France, UK, NL, JP ... ? To be sure, if we knew what they knew, we would understand why the House has just increased the intelligence budget to $30bn, $2bn more than 1996 (WaPo 5-23-96). Maybe all the major crypto nations (gov-and-com), are minting E-money to pay their best techies to protect their secrets. If so, may the best algorithmist take 'em all to the cleaners -- just remember to share with the hackers spooking the spooks-and-crooks of gov-com intel-insec, and causing "Yo, man's" of recognition and admiration of those peering for pennies at ELINT and NetSec screens.

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Re: [SCARE]: "If you only knew what we know..."
by frantz＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:37 PM 5/23/96 -0700, sameer(a)c2.org wrote: > > Paraphrasing the "Wired" item, "No person who has ever received "The > Briefing" has ever again argued forcefully for the rights of citizens to > use strong cryptography." I assume that since Senator Leahy is a co-sponsor of the Burns bill, "The Briefing's" effects are not long lasting. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Frantz | The CDA means | Periwinkle -- Computer Consulting (408)356-8506 | lost jobs and | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz(a)netcom.com | dead teenagers | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

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Re: [SCARE]: "If you only knew what we know..."
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:07 PM 5/23/96 -0700, Timothy C. May wrote: > >"If you only knew what we know..." > >("...you wouldn't support encryption, you wouldn't push for privacy >legislation, you would order all citizen-units to have tatooed ID numbers >on their arms...") > >Though I normally avoid "Wired," I did pick up the latest issue to skim >through. A couple of good things, actually, including a nice summary of the >state of crypto laws, etc. (I don't recall the author, as I didn't buy the >issue.) > >A great discussion of the Deepest and Darket Secret in Washington, the >special "If you only knew what we know..." briefing given to legislators, >staffers, etc. to convince them of the Evils of Cryptography. There is a clue here. If that briefing is so effective, why don't they give it to the entire country? We "all" know (at least around CP) of a number of sorta-bad things that might occur as a consequence of allowing good cryptography. (none of which, on balance, even come close to justifying banning or restricting good crypto, or justify GAK, etc.) However, very few of them require more than a little imagination to invent on our own, and given communication most of them will be thought of and disseminated without being revealed by the government. So it's a bit difficult to imagine why they'd avoid discussing those issues in public. The clue, I think, is that this briefing is given to "legislators, staffers, etc". Presumably, whatever arguments they use in this briefing are quite selective and tailored to appeal to government types. They're telling these people of a argument against good encryption that works for government-types but NOT ordinary civilians. It isn't that they don't want the average civilian to know of these arguments, they simply don't want the populace to know what subset of these consequences the government is really concerned about. Okay, what kind of thing would terrify government-types but not most civilians? >Paraphrasing the "Wired" item, "No person who has ever received "The >Briefing" has ever again argued forcefully for the rights of citizens to >use strong cryptography." >I surmise that either Sen. Burns has not yet been given The Briefing, or he >is for some reason more resistant than most other burrowcrats to the scare >tactics used in The Briefing. >I sure would like to know what's in this briefing. >--Tim May It probably starts like this: "See, there's this guy named Jim Bell...." B^) Seriously, though, I can't see how it could be anything other than the typical Crypto-Anarchy-type scenarios, but presented as if they are a Bad Thing as opposed to being a Good Thing. This would fit all the criteria: They appear to be extremely bad from the standpoint of the government-types, are not particularly convincing to the citizens, and the government wouldn't want the public to know what they're most concerned with. It might start'em thinking. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Re: GAK3
by frantz＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"That's a very powerful thing. Suppose the king of England, or the French government, for example, says that you must use our way of assigning identity, and if you do not use our way to assign identity you don't get to play. By doing this they get complete control over the system. Good points and bad points, but if they can make it stick, it's a very powerful position to be in. Indeed it's the position of the king or the sovereign. The identity by fiat." ... [Discussion of Microsoft/Visa proprietary, patented and non-disclosed CA system elided] "So if you allow this sort of a vertically-integrated system to come into place, whoever controls that vertically-integrated system will have control not only over the liquidity--that is, issuing you money--they will end up with a monopoly over the control of the content. Having a monopoly over the content, of course, gives them the power to tax, and the power to get revenues as a percentage of those sales transactions. "So we conclude by asking these questions: If identity no longer comes from your bank, but from your PC operating system, what role does your bank have in granting you liquidity? And if your identity comes from your PC operating system, why can't the PC operating system grant you liquidity? And, indeed, granting you liquidity is known as extending credit. And extending credit is, and has been, historically the function of banks and banks alone. "The point of this discourse into identity and liquidity is to get you to think a little bit about the power of the way that these different systems go together using the bionomic model. If we indeed live with historical, pyramidal kinds of structures, we step right into an economic world where there is, by default, the accident of handing someone else the ability to provide us taxation. If we, on the other hand, maintain autonomies--small self-organizing groups with a language that allows us to communicate from group to group--along with that economic freedom comes a social freedom." - Bill Melton, CEO-CyberCash Inc. Quoted in: http://www.upside.com/news/archive/speech/melton/melton.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bill Frantz | The CDA means | Periwinkle -- Computer Consulting (408)356-8506 | lost jobs and | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz(a)netcom.com | dead teenagers | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

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Re: Floating Point and Financial Software
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:40 PM 5/23/96, Paul S. Penrod wrote: >But there is a simpler method to avoid the problem entirely. There is >suffcient horsepower in uP's these days to support "long hand" division >and multiplication. Granted it takes some extra grey matter to write the >routines, but once done, you can vary the amount of precision to whatever >you desire and not have to worry about accuracy. I've been skipping most of the "floatingpointpunks" messags, but will note that several languages I personally use (however infrequently) have "bignum" support and support full-precision calculations. These include: LISP and Scheme, Smalltalk, and Mathematica. If performance is not an issue, the bignum packages available in C and C++ ought to be sufficient for any financial needs. And Hal Finney is working on a bignum package for Java. --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Matt says he didn't get "The Briefing"
by Perry E. Metzger 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The claim was that Matt Blaze got "the briefing". I asked him about this, and this is what he said to me (forwarded with permission). I don't think I actually got "the briefing". They invited the seven authors of the key length report down to DC to talk with a bunch of policy types, but they never showed us the bodies (or the files on us, or whatever it is they show the people who they really want to impress). Perry

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Trust In A Cryptographic Economy And Digital Security Deposits: Protocols And Policies
by Joseph M. Reagle Jr. 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

My thesis "Trust In A Cryptographic Economy And Digital Security Deposits: Protocols And Policies" is now available in digital form for those that might be interested. You can find it on my ecommerce page at: http://farnsworth.mit.edu/~reagle/commerce/commerce.html An intro, table of contents, conclusion, and the refs are in html format. You may download the whole thing as compressed postscript. _______________________ Regards, When we ask advice, we are usually looking for an accomplice. -Marquis de la Grange Joseph Reagle http://farnsworth.mit.edu/~reagle/home.html reagle(a)mit.edu E0 D5 B2 05 B6 12 DA 65 BE 4D E3 C1 6A 66 25 4E

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Re: Innocence & harmless weapons
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

While it was a slick one-liner, it was also wrong. The truth can indeed harm innocents. For example, "The truth is that Anne Frank lived in an Amsterdam attic." is an excellent example of a truth that can, indeed, be used to harm people should it become known. The reason we use encryption is to disguise truths that we don't want others to know, and if those truths become known there may indeed be harm to innocents.. At 05:02 PM 5/23/96 -0500, Jim Choate wrote: >Whose side of the truth? To be honest I was surprised by your simplistic >responce. > Jim Choate >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> SANDY SANDFORT >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >> At 12:11 PM 5/23/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: >> >> >Tell ya what: name a weapon that CANNOT be used to harm an >> >innocent person. Go ahead, I'm waiting. >> >> The Truth? >> >> >> S a n d y Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Attacks on remailers
by herodotus＠alpha.c2.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The current discussion on the future of remailers seems to have been ignited by two events: the closure of the Hacktic remailer and the FBI's contacting an operator about a threatening message sent through his remailer. We have, however, almost no actual information about the two incidents, especially the type of threats, if any, made against the operators of the two remailers. This lack of information makes it difficult for others interested in remailers to make informed decisions about their future. We need more specific information about these two incidents. -- Herodotus <herodotus(a)alpha.c2.org>

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Re: National Journal article sez net-activism is just political hicks
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 03:31 PM 5/23/96 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: > >>Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 11:04:50 -0700 >>From: jwarren(a)well.com (Jim Warren) >>Subject: National Journal article sez net-activism is just political hicks >>Sender: owner-fight-censorship(a)vorlon.mit.edu >>Precedence: bulk >>X-URL: http://fight-censorship.dementia.org/top/ >> >>Tommorrow, Washington's politically-powerful National Journal reportedly >>will publish a know-nothing piece of "journalism" saying that net-aided >>politics is essentially nothing but a batch of ineffective, know-nothing >>nerds and back-water political hacks. At least we now know that the National Journal hasn't heard of Cyber-Anarchy--- or they didn't understand one word of it. >>Check it out on Friday or thereafter -- at www.politicsusa.com -- and >>forward your *informed* comments to the NJ's Editor and Letters Editor. >> >>--jim >> >>On the other hand, maybe we ought to just continue escalating our political >>effectiveness using the net, and let it come as a total shock to the >>Beltway insiders who trust this piece of misinformed blather ... when we >>provide more and more swing votes in contested elections -- as already >>occured with DeFoley8 against ex-Speaker Tom Foley, VTW for now-Senator Ron >>Wyden, me for now-available Calif legislative data, the gun BBS against >>ex-Calif Senate Prez Pro Tem David Roberti, etc. :-) Slowly but surely, they're learning! Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Re: Children's Privacy Act
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Lauren Amy Gelman said: >The text of the Children's Privacy Protection and Parental Empowerment >Act is available at the Epic "Children's Privacy" web site: > >http://epic.org/privacy/kids/ > >Read it before you trash it! We at LolitaWatch GMBH are amused that legislators in the United States are attempting to legislate that which can be so easily bypassed with the world-wide Internet. In fact, anticipating such restrictions on the collection of some data, we moved our operations to Aalborg, Danmark earlier this year. (Forslag og ideer vedr. indhold modtages gerne af: www(a)lolita.nordjyllands .dk ) Danish laws are not so repressive as American laws, and our American friends can so easily access our data bases of information derived from the mandatory age-labeling tags you Americans so conveniently (for us) insist upon. --Klaus Jellingestenen

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SF Bay Area: Topics (?) for Meeting June 8th
by Rich Graves 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Apologies if you prefer leaving these for the last minute. Unless someone has a better place, we'll meet at Stanford again, this time with a big enough room, fewer singing trees, and less sun putting me to sleep. Since we'll have a projection screen and multiple T3 Internet connection (knock on wood), it might be nice to show off some mockups of crypto GUIs, as discussed last time. Just hack together some GIFs or HTML to show what you like. In order to justify a room, this will be billed as a Stanford PGP Club meeting, so a key signing and a presentation from somebody (?) on some PGP thing (?) would probably be appropriate. Any chance of what's-their-name that stood us up last time showing up this month? There may be a speaker from CMU talking about net.censorship and privacy/pseudonymity in academia. Other topics? -rich

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Re: Runtime info flow in Java
by norm＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 7:06 AM 5/9/96, Christian Wettergren wrote: >Hi! > >I'm presenting my licentiate research proposal >next week, and I thought that some of you might >find it interesting. I'd like to find others >that are working with similar projects, to have >some people to discuss with. > >The actual proposal is available at > > http://www.it.kth.se/~cwe/phd/licprop.ps I began to look at your paper online but that works poorly for me. My printer does not handle A4 paper. PostScript seems inflexible in this regard. If it were available in 8.5 X 11 inch format you would have least one more reader. I am interested in your paper because you define the problem as we do. There are some who think that capability architectures are the solution. There is little information on how to solve these problems with capabilities. I am trying to find time to address some of these issues. KeyKOS is a capability based operating system that is designed to solve a variety of security problems. There are some papers at <http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~KeyKOS> and <http://www.webcom.com/agorics/library.html>. We find that Java as a language conforms well enough to capability principles even though not using the term. Some of the primordial classes do not conform and indeed it was there that the Princeton group found the problems that are most difficult to fix.

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FYA: "The ANOREV INTERCEPTS" [Usenet censorship] (fwd)
by Rich Graves 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Sometimes I amaze even myself, or whoever people think I am. This was written by Tallpaul, everyone's favorite anti-fascist activist. -rich INFORMATIONAL FOLLOWUP TO INTERNET NEWS GROUPS "rec.music.white-power" "soc.politics.marxism" "talk.politics.natl-socialism" Because of the role I played in the campaign to get people to VOTE NO on "rec.music.white-power" many people have sent me e-mail asking about the vote results on several political news groups on the internet. The following is the latest data available as posted in the official USENET news group called "news.groups". 1. "rec.music.white-power" (RMW-P) Today, May 21 at 04:46 GMT, the vote taker Michael Handler posted a message to "news groups" that read: "I have completed the tabulation of the rec.music.white-power vote, and submitted the results to David Lawrence. They should be posted shortly. "I will comment more on the subject, including regarding the delay in the posting of the results, once the results have been posted to news.announce.newgroups." The battle over RMW-P was perhaps the most intensive in the history of the internet and informal earlier reports indicated the raw vote broke the all-time internet record by a factor of two. The results of the vote, whatever they are and however they were counted, promises to be equally if not more controversial, particularly because of the two+ month delay between the vote deadline and the announcement of the results. I will inform all of you what the vote is as soon as it is posted. 2. "soc.politics.marxism" Yesterday, May 20 at 22:12 (GMT -04:00), the vote taker Brennan Price posted a message to "news groups" announcing that the group passed the vote 355 to 106. There is now a formal five-day waiting period for people to comment/protest/etc. on how the vote was counted, the method(s) used to invalidate ballots, and so forth. I will also keep you informed of how this discussion unfolds. 3. "talk.politics.natl-socialism" (TPN-S) R. Graves was the original proponent of TPN-S. He had opposed the earlier RMW-P group but on technical, not political reasons, and he does, as he once put it, "not consider [himself] anti-racist." Rather Graves opposition centered on whether the nazi news group had demonstrated sufficient interest as a music group, whether it had been properly proposed in terms of proper USENET/uunet electronic paperwork at the like. His version of the Kleim proposal for a nazi group was designed, in part, to straighten out this paperwork. Highly skilled technically, Graves seems quite clueless about the nature of fascism as a political tendency off the internet in the real world. He has opposed individual cybernazi dirty tricks in cyberspace, including some first-class technical tracking of cybernazis using anonymity and other devices to hide their identities. On the other hand, he has announced, for example, that there are only some one-to- two thousand hardened nazis in the entire world. Before the vote on SPM was announced, Graves stated he was "thinking of dropping" his proposal for the nazi group on the grounds (among others) that even the cybernazis themselves showed little interest in it. However, today at 00:35 (GMT -7:00) he posted to "news.groups" under the subject line "Going forward with talk.politics.natl-socialism after all" that: "The recent 60 Minutes interview with Dr. William Pierce, in which Mike Wallace was obviously uninformed about the person with whom he was speaking, has reestablished the need, as far as I am concerned, for a public forum dedicated to the discussion of national socialist movements. With Milton Kleim's permission, I will list him as an official co-proponent on the third RFD, for which I believe we just barely have time." Kleim accepted almost immediately. Graves's new view threatens additional ominous organizing by cybernazis on the net as they go for an additional news group even before the results of their previous organizing effort is announced. Nor does Graves's reason for going ahead seem particularly convincing. A search of the internet reveals only four mentions of Dr. William Pierce in recent times. One of them is by Graves himself a week or so before the Wallace interview. The other three were all responses to the interview. Nor does it seem likely that Mike Wallace or his staff will be avid readers of Graves's proposed TPN-S. Graves's decision also comes immediately after the statement that the votes on the earlier cybernazi proposal RMW-P were counted. It is possible that Graves's genuinely changed his mind (as did Milton Kleim) independently of the success of SPM and the vote on RMW-P. But one wonders how many will be convinced that this is the case versus the number that will see Graves's reference to Pierce/Wallace as more rationalization than reason. Still, until Graves's third version of the proposal is written and posted there seems little to be gained by any formal speculation on his motives or those of the cybernazis. Nor, until the vote on RMW-P is announced does it seem beneficial for new people to closely follow the post-announcement followups to "news.groups." I and others will be closely monitoring the group and will keep you informed of what is happening, what we think the significance is, and our thinking on how best to support, oppose, or avoid it. The short time line is uncertain. (Thus I am not even getting this ready to mail until I have again checked the group when I next log on.) But for political activists it promises to be an "interesting" summer and fall. --tallpaul(a)nyc.pipeline.com Post Script to New Readers: This series of letters originated with what a few of us jokingly call the ANOREV INTERCEPTS. I returned to the internet in September 1995 after a long absence. Various technical people who were anti-fascist but not activists had been following cybernazi organizing attempts in cyberspace. They had assembled a series of documents and analyses of the nazis, and, knowing that I was an antifascist activist sent me copies. (Some years ago Anglo/US intelligence intercepted and decoded some detailed material from Soviet intelligence that was code-worded VERONA. ANOREV is just that word spelled backwards.) The ANOREV material proved to be highly accurate. Based on this, I started the series called "This computer kills fascists," posting material to friends and other net activists.

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Re: [SCARE]: "If you only knew what we know..."
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:06 PM 5/23/96 GMT, John Young wrote: > >"Before the case is resolved, Patel's skepticism of the state's perogatives >will be tested to the limit when the government is called upon to defend >its policy. Patel is then likely to be given the *in camera* presentation >of The Deepest Darkest Secrets of Cryptography -- probably a modified >version of the classifed briefing the NSA has used with great success to >influence members of Congress. Legend has it that no one who ever got 'the >briefing' ever again opposed the agency." >Peter, anyone, are these welcome-to-the-inner-circle briefings always by >NDA, or worse threat? It seems to me that if the government REALLY thought it could push GAK by convincing the public that it was wise, it would at least prepare a redacted version of this briefing that it _could_ present to the public, if different than the "eyes only" version. After all, would they risk losing it all by NOT telling at least part of the story? Or is their failure to publicize all this because they realize that spilling the beans (even only some of them) would actually make it _less_ likely that GAK would be accepted by the public, rather than more? I think the latter is much closer to the truth. >Wonder if a public-spirited cryptographer is working on a book for a movie >about this heart of the deepest darkness? That depends on what you mean. I know a free-lance movie scriptwriter who is working on a story along related lines. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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Anonymous password assignment failure (no password)
by daemon＠anon.penet.fi 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

You have requested the assignment of a new password However, your message text didn't contain any password. Remember that passwords should only contain letters and numbers.

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Re: National Journal article sez net-activism is just political hicks
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 3:06 AM 5/24/96, jim bell wrote: >At 03:31 PM 5/23/96 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: >>>Tommorrow, Washington's politically-powerful National Journal reportedly >>>will publish a know-nothing piece of "journalism" saying that net-aided >>>politics is essentially nothing but a batch of ineffective, know-nothing >>>nerds and back-water political hacks. > >At least we now know that the National Journal hasn't heard of >Cyber-Anarchy--- or they didn't understand one word of it. What is this "cyber-anarchy" (or "Cyber-Anarchy") you keep talking about? --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: Innocence & harmless weapons (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 21:35:57 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sandy Sandfort <sandfort(a)crl.com> > Subject: Re: Innocence & harmless weapons > > > Whose side of the truth? > > That was a capital "T", bub. Truth doesn't have sides. (Think > of it as an archetype.) Sorry but the very fact that I don't agree with you is proof enough that there is no absolute 'Truth' as you use it. That is unless you are attempting to claim absolute omnipotence on the point of determination. > > To be honest I was surprised by your simplistic responce. > > That was a question mark, bub. It wasn't an answer, it was > a question. Hey, the devil is in the details, gang. Too bad > modern schools teach "self-esteem" instead of reading, writing > and rhetoric. (Spelling wouldn't hurt either.) Nice tactical ploy, an ad hominem buried in a straw man argument. Jim Choate

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Truth can sometimes be harmful...
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 8:06 PM 5/23/96, Sandy Sandfort wrote: >At 12:11 PM 5/23/96 -0800, jim bell wrote: > >>Tell ya what: name a weapon that CANNOT be used to harm an >>innocent person. Go ahead, I'm waiting. > >The Truth? > "The coordinates of Hiroshima are...." Q.E.D. (And there are thousands of variants of this, where "truth" leads to harm. Sandy was being terse in his comments, so he may have intended various qualifications, but as he stated things, my example stands.) --Tim May Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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