December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

To find the clock speed of a sun workstation
by Ashfaq Rasheed 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi Is there anyway of finding the clock speed of the CPU on a Sun workstation? As far as i know it can be found only by rebooting the machine and using module-info? And I believe that the module-info does a no-op loop for a a known number of times and calculates the time taken. I would like to know if there is anyother way to finding it. Thanks! Ashfaq

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No Subject
by A. Padgett Peterson P.E. Information Security 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Yet if I read you correctly earlier, you don't think the USG has the right >to regulate those communications. Why the distinction ? Okay, obviously I need to drop down a gear & explain *my* feelings: Part of the definition of a "sovereign nation" is to define and carry out both high and low justice over it's domain - the absolute right of a sovereign. Is not mentioned in the US constitution because it was a given. Further, the purpose of the US Constitution is to: a) define what the sovereign was (three branches - rock, scissors, & paper) b) set forth certain limitations on that sovereign ("Congress shall make no law...") c) define certain duties of the sovereign (regulation of foreign commerce...) (am simplifying so please bear with me) There are some things which for which the rationale is not apparent since the times have changed ("corruption of blood" is a "Congress shall not" that related back to English law of the time). What "Attainder" was is not mentioned since it was well understood. No this gets us back to the question: to me, "regulation of foreign commerce" has two elements - one is to prevent illegal commerce or traffic in goods that are contrary to "the public good". The other is to promote American trade and intrests overseas. The two go together and is the point I made at the NIST gathering in December. Quid pro quo. "Free speech" means that a citizen is free to speak (communicate) anthing, anytime, anywhere. This is the right guarenteed by the first amendment. This does not relieve the individual from being liable for the consequences of the exercise of "free speech". However, the government is under no obligation (though in the silly seventies it seemed that we were going that way) to aid or abet in the exercise of free speech. If it were properly and legally decided that communications with anon.penet.fi is against "national interest" then the sovereign has not only the "right" but the *duty* to block/monitor such communications. Now as to the second part of the question, I have never said that the conditions mentioned above could not legally exist (though I have my doubts about legality internally and between citizens - is part of the reasons American Corporations have never had a problem getting a license for use with foreign offices). What I said was that any such regulation would be impossible to enforce for two reasons: 1) While current crypto advertises its presence, crypto exists which is indestinguishable from random noise and would be impossible to prove was used. Further it would be necessary to specify what was not crypto (and the law frowns on negatives). Navaho, Basque, PKZIP, and EBCDIC are examples that fall readily to mind. 2) The second objection is more obscure but should be considered in places that lack our constitutional protections: given a message, any message, I can demonstrate a OTP or algorithm that will turn that into any message desired. Therefore just the existance of a message and a decrypt would be insufficient to prove the "chain" that one led from/to the other. Thus in the one case, I referring to the obligations/limitations that our constitution places on the US government (is what it is really about). In the other I was referring to what it is *possible* for the government to do without considering legality (if they can't, does not matter if legal). Does this clear up the confusion ? Warmly, Padgett ps just to add some more wood "any law that can not be demonstrated to be universally enforceable with the resources allocated should be repealed".

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Re: A Cyberspace Independence Refutation
by strata＠virtual.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Oh, hey, no problem. You're not the only one, despite the explicit reference in the document. Whether I like it or not, this industry is largely centered around and run by men. I always got a kick out of people's assumptions that my resume and my writing must "naturally" belong to a guy. Apparently the dominant paradigm thinks I'm holding my own in the rat race. I learned to take it as a compliment years ago; the same thing happened in 3 out of 5 phone screenings for job interviews. What's really been entertaining is where we did email prescreening and I showed up for an interview and got to watch someone's mental transmission popping its syncromesh for a moment. <grin> They always recover quickly and continue the shift into "interview mode", and I get that nice warm glow of having broadened someone's horizons. Cheers, _Strata

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Re: LI Newsday OpEd: Criminal Justice System
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 4:16 PM 2/12/96, Perry E. Metzger wrote: >"Deranged Mutant" writes: >> Found a really good op-ed piece in LI Newsday, Thurs. Feb 8, pA53 >> by Robert Reno, "If Jails Are Full, How Much Tougher Can Judges Get?" > >I personally find stuff like this interesting, but I prefer read about >it in places like libernet or the like. Cypherpunks is for >cryptography. Au contraire. Those interested in pure cryptography and coding are over in Coderpunks, the new gated community for such folks. The rest of us, stuck here in the ghetto of Cypherpunks, will talk about what we want to talk about. --Tim May Boycott espionage-enabled software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 - 1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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DEA
by nobody＠REPLAY.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Column by Jim Dykes in the Knoxville Journal (423-584-9606), 2/8/96. (...) I had a call the other day. About the DEA. Try to keep all these damn acronyms straight: DEA is Drug Enforcement Agency. Call was from an old cowboy - well, former Air America pilot, to be more precise, CIA. (There should be a federal agency to control us old men better.) To make a long, long story short, I have some names and phone numbers of people around the country - Customs, Immigration & Naturalization, maybe even some DEA, who can discuss rather interesting money ripoff techniques by DEA agents involving Title 18, Title 21, and Title 19 of the Federal Code. There was a time when I would have busted a gut - and a phone budget - trying to snare some bent government agents. But, now ... Let me make it perfectly clear that this old persimmon really doesn't give a damn. I am long past being shocked at venality and corruption in public servants. But, if anybody wants to be a hotshot investigative reporter (and run up a helluva phone bill for his or her employer) just give me a call. (That lets a lot of you out, since it would have to be somebody I know and trust.)

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cypherpunks t shirts, anymore?
by Oscar Boykin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I know someone that got bought a black sypherpunks t shirt with warning strong crypto on it. Are there any more of these? I would like to purchase a large. Please contact me if you know anything. oscar boykin mailto:boykin@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~boykin home: 404-206-0477

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MS CryptoAPI (fwd)
by Michael Froomkin 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

http://www.microsoft.com/intdev/inttech/cryptapi.htm A. Michael Froomkin | +1 (305) 284-4285; +1 (305) 284-6506 (fax) Associate Professor of Law | U. Miami School of Law | froomkin(a)law.miami.edu P.O. Box 248087 | http://www.law.miami.edu/~froomkin Coral Gables, FL 33124 USA | It's warmish here.

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NRL IPv6 code
by Perry E. Metzger 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I've just mailed off to Sameer Parekh the January '96 release of the NRL IPv6 sources. For those not in the know, this code implements the IPsec protocol for both IPv4 and IPv6. IPsec is a cryptographic protocol for securing IP datagrams -- it is now an IETF Proposed Standard, defined in RFCs 1825-1829. The code probably could use some work, but its not bad and a reasonable start for all sorts of work. This is a new version that reportedly has lots of bug fixes -- I'm also given the impression it may be the last NRL release of this code because the people doing the work have left there -- if it gets adopted by the BSD community, it will probably end up integrated into future NetBSD, BSDI and FreeBSDs, which would be where to look for future releases. The code should drop into BSDI almost out of the box -- it requires more work for NetBSD and FreeBSD. Perry PS Sorry to interrupt the discussion of the sex life of the Aloe Vera plant with something as irrelevant as cryptography. I can't resist sometimes.

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Smartcard report from Nando.Net
by E. ALLEN SMITH 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Anyone know anything else about this? Like any privacy protections (I doubt it), counterfeiting protections, etcetera? Thanks, -Allen Copyright &copy 1996 Nando.net Copyright &copy 1996 Bloomberg LONDON (Feb 12, 1996 11:23 a.m. EST) -- Motorola Inc. said it won two contracts to supply microchips for smart cards that will be used by the governments of Spain and the Czech Republic to administer benefit programs. The cards are credit-card sized devices incorporating specially-designed memory chips, called microcontrollers. They have a growing number of applications and can be used instead of cash in stores, at telephone booths, for pay-television and computer-shopping. The largest demand, though, will come from government agencies, like Spain's Social Security Administration and the Czech Republic's Healthcare Ministry. China, with a population of 1.2 billion, is considering a national identification card using this technology, said Waqar Qureshi, Motorola worldwide marketing manager for smart-card chips. [...] Spain has ordered 7 million microprocessors, valued at more than $10 million, from Motorola in the first phase of a nationwide program that could grow to 40 million cards. The chips will store the digitized description of the holders' fingerprints, which should help to reduce fraud. "The smart cards will enable multiple transactions with the Social Security to be carried out in a more secure manner and their use can easily be extended to other services," said a spokesman for the Spanish Social Security Ministry, quoted in a Motorola statement. In the Czech Republic, Motorola is supplying 10,000 chips for a pilot health-insurance program in the Litomerice region. A countrywide health-card project for 10 million people is planned for introduction starting in 1997. [...] "These two contracts, valued at tens of millions of dollars, are prime examples of the growing trend among governments across the world to look at smartcard solutions in the administration of public social services and benefits," said Allan Hughes, Motorola's worldwide smartcard manager. Visa Spain said in December it would launch smart cards to replace the use of cash for transactions as small as buying a pack of cigarettes. With software written in Spanish that already is being used in Miami, Colombia and Argentina, Visa Spain said it intends to place as many as 3 million "Visa Cash" cards a year in circulation in Spain this year.

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Re: Using /dev/random for PGP key generation? Be Wary
by Deranged Mutant 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- rngaugp(a)alpha.c2.org wrote in the c'punks list: > Subject: Using /dev/random for PGP key generation? Be Wary > > I have created a modified version of pgpi for use with a hardware random > number generators. Recently, there has been some confusion because > people have assumed that I wished people to use this version with > NOISE.SYS or an RNG that gathers entropy from timing events called > /dev/random. My concern, since there is a DOS version available according to your announcement (and this applies to OS/2 and Linux compilations as well) is that your version assumes /dev/random produces a continuous stream rather than bursts of data limited to how much entropy is gathered. A poor implementation even with a good driver is disasterous. [..] > Be assured that I originally planed the modification to be used with a > real hardware RNG. I tested it with the CALNET/NEWBRIGE RNG under DOS > and OS/2. The "RNGDRIVER" feature I tested with OS/2 and the driver in > RNG810.ZIP available at ftp.cdrom.com. Hmmm... I'll have to check that out. [..] > I am unsure about using my modification, together with these drivers > that are not connected to a real hardware RNG. In what way would the use > of these drivers' methods of gathering entropy be superior to PGP's > method of getting entropy from keyboard timing? If you choose to do > something like this, you should think carefully and make a careful study > of the code. I'm curious as to what method you tyest the hardware RNG's entropy? [..] > made to work. But careful thought an careful design should be done > first. Yep. - --- [This message has been signed by an auto-signing service. A valid signature means only that it has been received at the address corresponding to the signature and forwarded.] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Gratis auto-signing service iQBFAwUBMR/s2yoZzwIn1bdtAQEdeAF/XFFki97J+phJv76eMZXcMyHt1ChjN3FD PsMvsq03g/QHYfAMhb25qoSp5H6F5HFZ =2l/3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Dave Winer, MORE, and Outline Processors
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 9:21 PM 2/12/96, William Knowles wrote: >Found this in my mail this morning. >--------------------------------------- >Amusing Rants from Dave Winer's Desktop >Released on 2/12/96; 5:59:40 AM PST ... > The first huge blast of cyberpsace puffery and a historic rejection > of the US Constitution, on the same day. Some will say this has nothing to do with cryptography, but I want to share something about Dave Winer. Dave Winer wrote "MORE." the outline processor I wrote my Cyphernomicon FAQ in (and many other things over the years). Winer originally wrote "Think Tank," which I also had on my original IBM PC, circa 1983-4, and then "MORE," for the Macintosh. These were the preeminent outline processors, a market niche which has, sadly, almost vanished. (The outliner in Microsoft Word is primitive and cumbersome by comparison. FrameMaker, an otherwise extremely powerful writing tool, lacks an outline mode altogether. Hence I seldom use it.) Winer and his partners (not sure who they were) sole their company, Living Videotext, to Symantec. Symantec supported MORE for a couple of upgrades, then let it fade out. (MORE 3.1 still runs flawlessly on my Macintosh 7100av, with System 7.1.2, but will likely eventually stop working with some version of the System.) I've seen new-in-the-box copies of MORE 3.1 for $75 at Weird Stuff Warehouse, in Sunnyvale, CA. I highly recommend MORE for any of you Mac users out there. (In case anyone is wondering, no, I don't use MORE to write my things for this list. Conventional text editing is sufficient for these relatively short items. I don't even use a spulling checker anymore.) --Tim Boycott espionage-enabled software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^756839 - 1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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fwd: Meeks on telcos sharing local call info
by tbyfield＠panix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>This is forwarded from: > >Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 20:17:43 -0800 >From: "Brock N. Meeks" <brock(a)well.com> >To: cwd-l(a)cyberwerks.com >Subject: CWD--We're Not in Kansas Anymore Sender: owner-cwd-l(a)cyberwerks.com > >CyberWire Dispatch // Copyright (c) 1996 // > >Jacking in from the "Abandon All Hope" Port: > >Washington, DC -- >Howard Stern's Private Parts >========================== > >Although Howard Stern's privacy (is this an oxymoron?) isn't in question >here, your privacy is. > >The bill basically allows the telephone companies to use the data they have >on you in any way they see fit, with one caveat: They must provide the same >access to that information to competitors, if asked. As long as they don't >hog all your private data, such as how many times >you call Domino's Pizza or whether you're an avid QVC network shopper, they >can sell your data to just about anyone and use it internal in ways that >should make your skin crawl. > >This is all laid out in admittedly banal Congress speak: "A local exchange >carrier (that's your local phone company) may use, disclose, or permit >access to aggregate customer information... only if it provides such >aggregate information to other carriers or persons on reasonable and >nondiscriminatory terms and conditions up reasonable request therefore." > >In other words, bend over and kiss your sweet aggregate good-bye. > >Meeks out... >--- end forwarded text

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24 hours of Democracy
by printing＠explicit.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Found this in my mail this morning. -William Knowles printing(a)explicit.com --(Fwd)-- --------------------------------------- Amusing Rants from Dave Winer's Desktop Released on 2/12/96; 5:59:40 AM PST --------------------------------------- ***Good Morning! Here's an idea that I'm floating. Check it out. What do you think? Can you help? Thanks! ***The net has been redefined On 2/8/96 cyberspace was redefined by the US government. If you doubt me, visit <http://www.whitehouse.gov/>. Click on the calendar icon next to What's New. Check out their coverage of the Telecom Act, their celebration of 24 Hours in Cyberspace. I think this trip should be required reading for every freedom-loving webmaster, webwriter and web user. The first huge blast of cyberpsace puffery and a historic rejection of the US Constitution, on the same day. A coincidence? An accident of history? Hmmmm. I was educated as a mathematician and then as an engineer. I've spent 20+ years debugging software. I've learned that when I want to really understand what's going on, don't look to an Act of God as the explanation, when it's more likely just an error in logic. The truth: the media people have learned how to use the net and to combine it with TV, radio and print media. They're transferring the power structures in their world to the web world. If we want real change, now is the time to make an investment in democracy on the Internet. Every voice can be heard. Our ideas speak for us. We can persuade, cajole, taunt, seduce, use logic, examine all aspects of a problem, learn, be angry, be scared, and then find the most eloquent statement, the one that resonates deepest within all of us. And then we march. It's an exciting time to be a webwriter! I get to write about the biggest issue of them all -- freedom. And, please read on -- you do too. ***It's our turn Another truth: the media people liked the blackout campaign. It worked. The day after 24 Hours in Cyberspace, the big news on TV was the blackout. It demos well. It was an appropriate protest. Good job! Now, let's go the next step. Here's my proposal. Wednesday. Start time: 12:01AM, Pacific, 2/14/96. End time: 11:59PM, Pacific, 2/14/96. 24 Hours of Democracy. They defined cyberspace. We define democracy. ***Write an essay What does freedom mean to you? What does democracy mean to you? What are your hopes and dreams for the Internet? Have you ever experienced grace or nobility on the net? Do you have children? Are you a child? What do you think? How does the Internet help make things right? Be angry! That's cool. And be respectful. It's Valentine's Day! Write a love letter to the Internet. ***How it works Spend a couple of days writing your essay. Talk about it with your friends. Share ideas. Listen. When you're ready, post your essay to the web. If you don't have a website, check out the Sponsors page at the 24 Hours website. I'm enlisting the help of service providers. We may have an easy way for people who don't have sites to get their essays posted to the web. Shortly after the start time I'll mail a DaveNet piece telling you where to send the URL for your page. The styling of the page is entirely up to you. There's a Template page on the 24 Hours site, the URL is at the bottom of this email. I suggest using a white background for easy reading, and to contrast the black backgrounds of last week. Use animated GIFs. RealAudio. Java applets. Shockwave parts. JavaScript banners. Near the bottom of the page, put some keywords about yourself, where you are geographically, your email address. Web crawlers will be able to extract this information and index it. Follow the example in the template if possible. At the top of your page, create three links, Next, Prev and Index. After the 24 Hours database is compiled, a few days after the end time, we'll send you a mail message containing the addresses to fill into each of these pointers. Next and Prev will point to essays written by other 24 Hours participants. The Index link will point to a home page for the whole project. Essays will not be judged or reviewed. You own your own words, and are responsible for what you write. ***Who can help Moms & Dads: Ask your kids how they feel about the Internet. Have they made new friends? What have they learned? Did the Internet ever scare them? Make some quiet time. Listen. Teachers: This would make a great homework assignment for your students. Webmasters: You have to seduce people into caring about this stuff. Convey your excitement to people you work with. It's not just about pornography, it's about freedom. Point them to "Netscape"'s home page. Ask them to read your essay. Create a page of pointers to their essays. Computer users: Be a visionary! What kind of software would you like to see coming from the software industry over the next few years? Graphic artists: We need colorful schemes, a simple message, low bandwidth art with commercial appeal. Celebrities, political leaders: Do you have something to say? Editorial organizations: Can you review essays and choose the most compelling ones or the most interesting ones? Online companies: We need mail, web and database servers; search engines. Can you make it easier for your users to get a single page up on your server? Can you assist them in registering their pages on Wednesday? Can you give them a discount, or provide free storage for their essays? Bandwidth, support and free service to participants is what counts. Everyone: Have fun! That's what this is about. Be creative. As soon as it stops being fun we stop growing, and that's the end. Be positive! ***Only 42 hours left That's about it. I've committed the next few weeks to making this happen. I want to work with people, where possible, but by design it's a very distributed Internet sort of thing. I plan to write my own 24 Hours essay, and have lots of ideas for the sponsors. There are only 42 hours till the essays start rolling in. Let's have fun! Dave Winer PS: People have said there's not enough time. I think there is. I've been getting lots of long emails from people in response to the DaveNet pieces I've been running. We'll get something done on 2/14/96 and then if it works, we'll do it again in a few weeks. PPS: Please watch <http://www.hotwired.com/userland/24/> for project and sponsorship news and other information. PPPS: Remember, if you want to participate the legal system, it's *very* important that if you're old enough, that you vote. Think about who you can support. 1996 is an election year in the US. Be part of the system. If you're a voter, please vote! PPPPS: Please pass this essay on! The 24 Hours project is worldwide. It's open to everyone, of all nationalities. --------------------------------------------------------------- It's your turn to speak: <http://www.hotwired.com/userland/24/>

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Re:A Cyberspace Independence Refutation
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

strata(a)virtual.net wrote: >Let us show them how cunning, baffling, and powerful we can be as >armed federal marshals walk into a major ISP and shut down their >routers, as replays of Operation Sun Devil occur in people's houses, Operation Sun Devil happened in 1990. A couple of BBS' were shut down. It hasn't been repeated much since. There are currently more than 7,000 commercial ISPs in the world. At one or two shutdowns per decade, it will take a while. Note too that an ISP is more like a carrier (common or not) than like a publisher. Legal difficulties for the Feds. Even harder in the future when 100 million households worldwide have full-time net access running on real multitasking workstations. >as major idiocy of the sort that only a scared government in a country >which considers itself free can carry out. >digress. All the little-boy fantasies of the Powerful Internet don't >mean two beans when an officially sanctioned thug turns the switch >from 1 to 0 on your POP. It'll happen. Just watch. I'm waiting. Then I'll have to call all the way to Montreal to log on. They will have a lot of fun trying to *find* all the ISPs though. There are quite a few and that still leaves company, academic, government, and private TCP/IP servers up. >Oh, let's start right off pretending that >a) the net is an independently funded entity with no government >infrastructure and There's not much government infrastructure left on the Net. The backbone went private the weekend after the OKC Federal building was blown up. >While we're at it, let's press a monkey-brain hot button in any person >of political power by saying their power does/should not apply here. >This will not only make them receptive to the reasoning which we will >lay out in the rest of the document, it will impress them with our >real-world suavity, tact, and general with-it-ness. Defeat is a process that occurs in the mind of the enemy. If you can convince them not to fight, you and they are better off. In any case, you don't get anywhere by failing to assert your strength. A declaration of independence doesn't mean you are independent it is the opening shot in a conflict by which you win (prove) your independence. >Nature abhors a vacuum. I assume it surprises no one that much of the >major flack about the net began when it became widely known to >government that the net considered itself anarchic. It doesn't consider itself anarchic -- it is. The IETF reaches decisions by consensus and the software that becomes part of what we call "the Net" becomes a part of the Net only when a large enough number of individual servers decide to run it. >We took a defense department network and ran with it, but since we've >been playing with it for over a decade, it's ours now. Just like when >the neighbor kid loaned us his toy and we fixed it up, painted it, put >new wheels on it, and now he wants it back! WAAAAAAHHHH! Neither Arpanet nor the Internet were Defense Department networks. They were (for a while) academic networks funded (in part) by DOD and many other sources. Certainly when the Internet went international (when exactly did that happen?) the DOD became an insignificant player. >network culture. You did not again and again provide equipment and >resources only to watch them become privatized by the core of >sysadmins and techies that you paid over the years, often in outright >blackmail ("we'll walk away unless you sell/give us the equipment and >facility"). These sorts of informal negotiations of the terms of employment are quite common in life. Anyone could have been fired at anytime if their supervisors didn't like what they were doing. It is blackmail to threaten to quit only if you are a slave who is not "allowed" to do so. Here, we can quit a job any time for any (or no) reason. Certainly employers both public and private have benefitted from the development of networking technology. >Like use of copyrighted material, for instance. We who forward things >from the "experimental" (but going for years) AP and NYT news wire >feeds, the Dave Barry mailing lists, the Calvin and Hobbes cartoon >daily web sites, we will identify them and address them by our means >if we ever decide there's a problem there that we actually care about. Fair use (private distribution) or published on the net by the copyright holders themselves. >Same with snuff stories about real people You mean like novels about the Kennedy assassination. >harrassment of women, minorities, or homo/bi/trans-sexuals online, etc. Well *somebody* has to do it. Women, minorities and the differently sexed certainly harass other people. I thought we all had equal rights. >Online advertising actually bothers us, so we completely smite and try to >drive out of business people who are clueless enough to try spamming. This obviously hasn't worked. There's an awful lot of advertizing on the net these days. >Right, only by ISP and spelling and punctuation ability. This >paragraph is where I decided I finally had to come out and call >bullshit to this whole thing. And how many of the people on the mailing lists >that claim to be full of internet liberators, free-speech advocates, >people who are "building cyberspace" etc look at something posted by, >say, an AOL account, with the same level of fair judgement as they do <Various complaints about net elitist misbehavior elided.> When one goes out into the marketplace, one encounters many different people and many challenges. You must win acceptance from some of the other participants you find there. There are mores. You have to learn some of them or find others of your ilk who already share you mores. It is not hard. It is called life. >I'm rolling on the floor, but I'm not sure if I'm laughing or crying. >WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM? Can someone take an anonymous poll of the >Known Network and ask the following: "I routinely refrain from >posting my opinions or beliefs to mailing lists and/or newsgroups for >fear of flaming, harrassment, or ridicule, even when I am confident of >those beliefs or opinions (strongly-disagree disagree no-opinion agree >strongly-agree)" I've never been bothered. Tim has had the cops called on him. We still post at will. A short survey of the Feed suggests that many other people continue to post at will. Probably too many. In fact, they obviously feel freer to do so on the net than in real life. >Hell, look what the cypherpunk community did to Detweiler! I've never >met the man, but I've read his papers and he doesn't seem like a total >nut case to me. Opinions differ. >does that mean we have to handle them with a complete >lack of compassion? Do we have to be little boys with sticks >tormenting a wounded animal? I don't think so. This is not a therapy group. Compassion is a personal matter. Certainly LD is not noted for his compassion. >it. For that matter, source code copyrights on the net are just a >quaint custom, and so are people's personal privacy expectations with >regard to their email and to their files. I mean, >electronic privacy isn't a concept of property, identity, or >expression is it? What's all this fuss about crypto? Silly people, >those legal concepts don't apply here!!! Now go read your users mail >like a good sysadmin and turn in heretics to the thought police. Mr. >Barlow says it's okay, right here in this widely-forwarded document! I hadn't noticed much advocacy of reading private email or turning people in to the thought police anywhere on the Net. Perhaps you read some unusual mailing lists. >Now I understand why there is no fear of the plug being pulled-- so >what if this message is being read on a physical screen and is stored >on a physical disk, with a physical junction joining it to the network, >"there is no matter here". The fact that the computer on which you >read this may belong to someone else, may be shut down without your >control, may be being misused according to their intent just by >transmitting this message, that is irrelevant! OMMMMMMM-- are you >receiving this message? OMMMMMMMM.... In modern capitalist societies like the US, it is possible to actually own fairly powerful computers yourself. In fact, I understand that even the peasantry in America can put together the $200 for a used 386sx and the $39 for a 14.4K modem and run a free copy of Linux and have a powerful TCP/IP server of their own. The dialup connection is not permanent of course. It can be bought from many local, national, and overseas providers. Encrypted TCP/IP to out-country ISPs will make things a bit harder to track. >The persons we have kicked off numerous online services, such as >Cantor & Seigel, email harrassers, stalkers, etc are not really "us", >so this statement is entirely self-consistent, Selah. Severing a contractual relationship with someone (under the terms of that contract) is not physical coercion and bears no resemblance to physical coercion. Those who are "disfellowshipped" by lists or ISPs can find others who will accept them. >Even if we don't apply it universally to ourselves, only to those >online bodiless entities who meet with our approval and are clearly >also members of the intellectual and anarchic elite! Actually, the ability to control group inclusion and exclusion is the definition of one sort of a society. You are arguing that the Net has become a grouping of various societies and subcultures. I agree. >Yes, I should give up my political career and >the hope of building new housing in my district, getting more school >funding, etc for a bunch of twenty (or thirty)-something >non-constitutents who think of me as a pustulent gastropod. I'll run >right out and vote against TRA!! We (some of we) don't want the housing or the school funding either. I certainly consider slave schools to be the most common form of child abuse in the world today. >How much do you go out of your way for people who openly despise you >and publicly declare your stupidity with every other breath? Don't go out of your way. Just stay out of our way. Play golf instead. >Tsk tsk-- how will people find you after your domain name gets taken >out of the InterNIC servers and your ISP is forced to pull your >network number or get shut down? Or rather, how will other people >besides your group of fellow net.elite peers find you? Use another domain name. Internic doesn't even have a monopoly of domain name assignment within the US. If it casually screws around with too many people, it will guarantee further loss in market share. How, exactly, is there going to be a massive pulling of IP addresses. That sounds like an awful lot of expensive litigation to me. Court orders don't come cheap even if the Feds do buy them wholesale. They'll lose that predator hunt energy balance equation as long as it costs me virtually nothing so set up a new net presence somewhere else but it costs them $thousands per "takedown." >We've got a hell of a lot of work to do, then. Let's start by not >flaming people at the drop of a hat. Perhaps I myself am guilty of >this-- everyone who flames thinks they have a good enough reason. >But unlike some people, I've never claimed to be a superior being. In this century alone, the governments of the world have murdered more than 160 million people. The Net has very few murders to its (dis)credit. If flaming is the worst we ever do... >Declaration are a major red herring. Every person who takes his or >her five minutes to forward this to another mailing list or to his or >her congresscritter is wasting time and helping to promote an >impression of the net as a place full of immature, unrealistic people. I've found JPB to be reasonably realistic for one "of the left." This debate is *about* who is the most "realistic" the regulators or the anti-regulators. So far, the regulators haven't done too well. Time will tell. In any case, it's way too early to declare the game over. As for "realism." One may be permitted to doubt the realism of those who expect massive physical raids to shut down the net. That sort of thing worked (for a while) in commie countries but it's never even been tried here. If they are going to do it, they'd better do it soon before the net triples in size again. >Find something original and concrete to do instead. Spend the five >minutes writing and *mailing* an original letter to your elected >official and mention you are in his or her district. This is *original*? >Write a >non-judgemental, helpful explanation of something to a net newcomer. >Install PGP on your roomate's machine and teach him/her how to use >it. Take an hour to write and post a refutation to a meme which >you think will harm the net community. Just go DO something. This happens to be how Barlow spends most of this time. Many of us as well. >It's a hard thing to face, that armed persons might come to your door >and shut down your livelihood and your main access to your chosen >community of friends, and possibly shoot you or your loved ones in >the process. Now there's a *real* breach of netiquette. Remind me not to give my real address to my ISP. Too bad their prisons are sort of maxed out with drug dealers or they might lock up the lot of us (though one wonders on what charges). >The sooner we face and deal with that fear in ourselves, >and use that transformative power to direct our actions for individual >and collective freedom, the better. I thought that that was what you were objecting to. >Pretending we are ruling a >powerful invisible empire which is immune to violence is not the way >to get there. Get real about the virtual. Not an empire an anarchy and not ruling it either. DCF

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Re: V-chips, CC, and Motorcycle Helmets
by Rich Salz 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>The Rushdie incident is simply so far removed from "Assassination Politics" >that it can't possibly be used to refute it; I still believe it actually You're a loon. s/Rushdie/Khomeni/

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Re: Smart cards
by lunaslide＠loop.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

} The headline in the Toronto Star this morning is "'SMART CARD' }HERE WITHIN YEAR" } The idea is to have everyone in Ontario have a 'smart card' that }will "keep track of everything from mammograms to speeding tickets". This }card will "replace the existing health card, drivers's licence, social }assistance identification, drug card, and senior identification". Very convienient. Why don't they just put bar codes on our foreheads at birth and get it over with? Seriously, what I want to know is how they plan to make one set of information (drivers licence, soc security number) inaccessable to other institutions like health and pharmacy. This is even more of a concern if the card becomes a method of payment. Would each have it's own secret key that would unlock only the relavent info? That would be a big keyring. Access time for a key and keeping the keys up to date in all the databases around the country would have to be done. lunaslide "Prohibition... goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes... A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - -- Abraham Lincoln On the meridian of time there is no injustice, only the poetry of motion creating the illusion of truth and drama. Henry Miller ________________________________________________________________ -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCPAzEX3QEAAAEEAOGQjhnqGH29pO1WDaXs5GFOVPhCBWyYEk9XEwRmscjveWzH AhA6DeOA480zWNqQURyqE2yPmR8WzT+OXYqmeiQiycKyFA41Vs/Ruf+gXXxe7uXS L5BK3K8oKbfoH0D5/TAkMT4r6BprXFQz4pFc3gY2SSaSPElpMjKHaKBsRsyRABEB AAG0HUplZmYgQ29ubiA8bHVuYXNsaWRlQGxvb3AuY29tiQCVAwUQMRffHzKHaKBs RsyRAQGNhwP9E9xEZ9/LCKnhgtnrqgD7pDoXG2pCy8FoyfFjoImGkG+jF1wELXmB Z0mf8F8CgYkys0mif1XeGDMelr1gzlZAm6LgQt4kcvztMW/aRLn18QP+iwltVT/L p8D37mitOjvuk46sWgAChIaPPPIeg/EaYQjQkmlpWKsEYIoTRy+E8mU= =4Gku -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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NSA Mouse pad
by Greg Rose 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I got a mouse pad in the mail today, mailed in Maryland, but otherwise in a plain brown envelope. It has nice, understated gold seal announcing it is from the National Security Agency's Information Systems Security Organization. Obviously it wasn't export controlled. I met these people at the recent USENIX conference; there was an Air Force related trade show in the center next door to the San Diego Marriott. I was looking for people to submit papers to the upcoming USENIX Unix and Network Security Conference in San Jose in July. The deadline for extended abstracts is one month away (hint, hint). Greg. -- Greg Rose INTERNET: greg_rose(a)sydney.sterling.com Sterling Software VOICE: +61-2-9975 4777 FAX: +61-2-9975 2921 28 Rodborough Rd. http://www.sydney.sterling.com:8080/~ggr/ French's Forest 35 0A 79 7D 5E 21 8D 47 E3 53 75 66 AC FB D9 45 NSW 2086 Australia. co-mod sci.crypt.research, USENIX Director.

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Re: To find the clock speed of a sun workstation
by mch＠squirrel.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Feb 12, 16:16, Ashfaq Rasheed wrote: } Subject: To find the clock speed of a sun workstation } Hi } } Is there anyway of finding the clock speed of the CPU on a Sun workstation? } As far as i know it can be found only by rebooting the machine and using } module-info? And I believe that the module-info does a no-op loop for a } a known number of times and calculates the time taken. } } I would like to know if there is anyother way to finding it. If you run /usr/etc/devinfo -vp (Sun OS 4.1.x), or /usr/sbin/prtconf -vp (Solaris 2.x) you'll get a line which looks like clock-frequency: 02625a00 This is the clock frequency in hexadecimal in Hz. The above example is from an IPX (40 MHz). Another example. On an SS1000E with two 60 MHz processors, you'll get output indicating two CPU devices each starting with Node 0xffd8e6ac clock-frequency: 03938700 device_type: 'cpu' again 0x03938700 == 60000000 On an Ultra 170E one gets Node 0xf006ea64 manufacturer#: 00000017 implementation#: 00000010 mask#: 00000022 sparc-version: 00000009 ecache-associativity: 00000001 ecache-line-size: 00000040 ecache-size: 00080000 #dtlb-entries: 00000040 dcache-associativity: 00000001 dcache-line-size: 00000020 dcache-size: 00004000 #itlb-entries: 00000040 icache-associativity: 00000002 icache-line-size: 00000020 icache-size: 00004000 upa-portid: 00000000 clock-frequency: 09f437c0 reg: 000001c0.00000000.00000000.00000008 device_type: 'cpu' name: 'SUNW,UltraSPARC' and 0x09f437c0 == 167000000 Watch out for other lines labelled, clock-frequency, these are for other devices. You want the one for the CPU device(s) (i.e. node with device type 'cpu'). -- Mark Henderson -- markh(a)wimsey.bc.ca, henderso(a)netcom.com, mch(a)squirrel.com PGP 1024/C58015E3 fingerprint=21 F6 AF 2B 6A 8A 0B E1 A1 2A 2A 06 4A D5 92 46 cryptography archive maintainer -- ftp://ftp.wimsey.com/pub/crypto ftp://ftp.wimsey.com/pub/crypto/sun-stuff/change-sun-hostid-1.6.2.tar.gz

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Re: Cypherpunks vs. Coderpunks [CORRECTION]
by lmccarth＠cs.umass.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I wrote: > If you want to join coderpunks, my life is made slightly easier if you > mailto:coderpunks-request@toad.com rather than sending directly to me. <sigh> the coderpunks-request address will work, but mailto:coderpunks-approval@toad.com is actually the address that prompts Majordomo to send me a nicely formatted subscription template, and makes my life a little easier. Sorry about the blather. I plead sleep deprivation. Futplex <futplex(a)pseudonym.com> (Volunteer) Coderpunks Bouncer -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMSAeNinaAKQPVHDZAQEYawf9HbnbJLfd9HnCp7hoYHoW6pMAm8fTgcmk 0SkAHoeUsh7neNwEtYAt+KTCv65fS3/YY5Tt8JmQ8D19q5tjjfggYuEfEdqC71FK 16WAKbDN66ucpQmdNkfWExafr4Cw+7jhW3VpJIByDIRdS9opLfK5VNwVETaRHstR bBal9Cr397siQ9WsXYWfw7w3tLxg54T3NP/sXcyNHQ+C6ZJSxUXB1YEFossKCduf cJp3KWfi2IKcD65fy05W164DQmtcL42iwkgHUQoCwilZYE+PEuAOTMqu26dfeTqu iil9dLIEd7lEkHxlFU2ufHDCoSj89zO515FRV1/B+33T8bqzJt3OdA== =a85O -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: CyberAngels
by joseph＠genome.wi.mit.edu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

not sure if this is the right place. I agree with allen, about the issues of 'nym. But looking at other aspects of these cyberangels I'm unsure how to feel. On one hand they seem resonable, protecting only the children. "Acts bewteen consenting adults are okay" say they. But the protect the children was what the CDA hid under. --Joseph

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Working Very Carefully
by James M. Cobb 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Friend, A 02 11 96 Bloomberg newsstory from Cannes, headlined ----------------------------------------------------- EUROPE'S ONLINE INDUSTRY TAKES SHAPE, COMPETITION HEATS UP reports: Even as they increase their subscriptions in Europe, online services are beginning to work on the legal and social aspects of the services they are providing. How very thoughtful! But what do they have in mind? Jack Davies, president of AOL International, has the answer: The issues involved are "bigger than a prosecutor in Ger- many, bigger than just Germany, it's a global issue. It in- volves a legal structure that may not have kept up with the technology and I think as an industry we have to work very carefully through this issue." Expanding from the Reich to the globe, what does Hans have in mind? DEUTSCHLAND UBER ALLES! But when it comes to contracting,...Jack's in charge. Cordially, Jim NOTE. The newsstory's www.nando.net online filename: info12_8583.html This critical essay was composed 02 12 96.

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Re: Stewart Baker's web site & OECD international crypto policy
by jf_avon＠citenet.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

John Gilmore <gnu(a)toad.com> reported: >My favorite was his summary report on the OECD meeting in December, >~steptoe/286908.htm, at which the US tried to parade some of the >fruits of its behind-the-scenes efforts to convince other governments >to become as authoritarian as the US government on crypto policy. Why help "potential enemies"? Why a govt risks it's cherished 'national security'? >If the US government can quietly convince other countries to support >Clipper-like systems (including "mandatory key escrow" and "trusted It probably means that they already cracked the code... :) Definitely, they are insane beyond the safety level... JFA **** NEW PGP 2.6.2 KEY ********* 2048 bits Key ID:24201BA1 1996/02/13 Jean-Francois Avon <jf_avon(a)citenet.net> Key fingerprint = 23 B6 24 31 86 67 FB 35 C7 A7 AF 12 A1 61 E9 3D **** OLD KEY: DO NOT USE ANYMORE UNLESS FOR VERIFYING SIGNATURES **** 1024 bits Key ID:57214AED 1995/10/04 Jean-Francois Avon <jf_avon(a)citenet.net> Key fingerprint = 84 96 76 AE EB 7C AB 15 88 47 87 B0 18 31 74 9F

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Re:
by lunaslide＠loop.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

}>Yet if I read you correctly earlier, you don't think the USG has the right }>to regulate those communications. Why the distinction ? } }Okay, obviously I need to drop down a gear & explain *my* feelings: } }Part of the definition of a "sovereign nation" is to define and carry }out both high and low justice over it's domain - the absolute right }of a sovereign. Is not mentioned in the US constitution because it }was a given. <-------No offense, but what the fuck kind of logic is that? }It is not a given. It was not put in because that is not the type of }government the founders endevored to erect. Read on please, I'll explain }myself. }Further, the purpose of the US Constitution is to: }a) define what the sovereign was (three branches - rock, scissors, & paper) }b) set forth certain limitations on that sovereign ("Congress shall make } no law...") }c) define certain duties of the sovereign (regulation of foreign commerce...) <rm> I cut the rest of your post because the main premise is not correct. The goal was not to create a sovereign government. It clearly states in the Declaration of Independence that the power belongs entirely to the people and that the government is a group of officials who are elected to do the bidding of the people. They have what power we give to them (theoretically, of course. They don't seem to listen much, do they?). sovereign n. 1. A person, governing body, etc., in whom the >supreme power or authority is vested.< adj. 1. Exercising or possessing supreme authority or jurisdiction. 2. Independent, and free from external authority or influence: a sovereign state. This is not what our government is. They are liable to us and the ultimate power lies with us. They are not independent and free from our influence. The opening statements of the Declaration of Independence, before they get to the complaints, outlines the the founding fasthers intentions in forming a government of their own. I have already quoted it in another post. "...to institute new Government, laying it's foundation on such principles and organizing it's powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safty and Happiness." The government seems more intent on _affecting_ our safty and happiness. It's been said before and it will continue to remain true, the govt scares up a new boogyman to frighten the public into giving it more power until finally the people do not have enough power to take back the power thwy gave to the govt. Democracy becomes facism through fear. What really confuses me is how most people in this country do not understand the logic behind this. lunaslide "Prohibition... goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes... A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - -- Abraham Lincoln On the meridian of time there is no injustice, only the poetry of motion creating the illusion of truth and drama. Henry Miller ________________________________________________________________ -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCPAzEX3QEAAAEEAOGQjhnqGH29pO1WDaXs5GFOVPhCBWyYEk9XEwRmscjveWzH AhA6DeOA480zWNqQURyqE2yPmR8WzT+OXYqmeiQiycKyFA41Vs/Ruf+gXXxe7uXS L5BK3K8oKbfoH0D5/TAkMT4r6BprXFQz4pFc3gY2SSaSPElpMjKHaKBsRsyRABEB AAG0HUplZmYgQ29ubiA8bHVuYXNsaWRlQGxvb3AuY29tiQCVAwUQMRffHzKHaKBs RsyRAQGNhwP9E9xEZ9/LCKnhgtnrqgD7pDoXG2pCy8FoyfFjoImGkG+jF1wELXmB Z0mf8F8CgYkys0mif1XeGDMelr1gzlZAm6LgQt4kcvztMW/aRLn18QP+iwltVT/L p8D37mitOjvuk46sWgAChIaPPPIeg/EaYQjQkmlpWKsEYIoTRy+E8mU= =4Gku -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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Re: V-chips, CC, and Motorcycle Helmets
by lunaslide＠loop.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

}At 07:20 AM 2/12/96 +0000, Deranged Mutant wrote: }>> Parents had that ability before. Cable boxes have a "perental control key" }>> on the side that enables them to lock out "offensive" channels. It works }>> quite well and is fairly hard for the kidlets to defeat. (I used it to }>> lockout the religious stations and home shopping channels.) }> }>When I was a kid some friends down the street knew how to unlock the }>Channel 100 XXX movies with a paper clip. A V-chip would hopefully }>be more sophisticated, but then again, so are today's kids... } }Sshhh! You are not supposed to tell them that! <rm> } }Yeah, I know it can be hacked. I also know that if they are that interested }in sex, NOTHING I do is going to stop them. (Which is as it should be. If }they have no exposure to any sexual material as a youth, some rather nasty }problems tend to crop up as adults. (Take a look at the studies of sexual }predators.) But that is a point avoided by the moralists...) <rm> What's really funny here is that the harder you make it for kids to get into something, the more they learn in order for them to get into it. Parents who impose restrictions on their children using all sorts of methods (hiding stuff, using the channel lock out deal, blah blah blah) are challenging their children to use deduction and reasoning to get at what they want. In the case of the v-chip, channel lockout, site blocking software, etc., the parents are turning their children into the most horrendous creatures of all...OH! Cypherpunks! lunaslide "Prohibition... goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes... A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." - -- Abraham Lincoln On the meridian of time there is no injustice, only the poetry of motion creating the illusion of truth and drama. Henry Miller ________________________________________________________________ -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQCPAzEX3QEAAAEEAOGQjhnqGH29pO1WDaXs5GFOVPhCBWyYEk9XEwRmscjveWzH AhA6DeOA480zWNqQURyqE2yPmR8WzT+OXYqmeiQiycKyFA41Vs/Ruf+gXXxe7uXS L5BK3K8oKbfoH0D5/TAkMT4r6BprXFQz4pFc3gY2SSaSPElpMjKHaKBsRsyRABEB AAG0HUplZmYgQ29ubiA8bHVuYXNsaWRlQGxvb3AuY29tiQCVAwUQMRffHzKHaKBs RsyRAQGNhwP9E9xEZ9/LCKnhgtnrqgD7pDoXG2pCy8FoyfFjoImGkG+jF1wELXmB Z0mf8F8CgYkys0mif1XeGDMelr1gzlZAm6LgQt4kcvztMW/aRLn18QP+iwltVT/L p8D37mitOjvuk46sWgAChIaPPPIeg/EaYQjQkmlpWKsEYIoTRy+E8mU= =4Gku -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----

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Re: Assasination Politics
by E. ALLEN SMITH 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"jimbell(a)pacifier.com" "jim bell" 12-FEB-1996 04:18:43.34 >>How much weight is Lotus going to give the opinions of a bunch of >>unbalanced sociopaths when they're thinking about making deal to gak those >>extra 24 bits? Not much, I'll bet. >If "AsPol" actually WORKS, Lotus won't have to "deal" to get "those extra 24 >bits." >Lotus should announce that they have heard of this new idea on CP, called >"Assassination Politics," and have assigned a couple dozen programmers to >implement it by July 1996. They'd back (guarantee) the prizes for the first >such organization, and they'd sell the software to others. At that point, I >think the resignations from government office would skyrocket. It seems likely that any overt organization operating an Assasination Politics scheme will be outlawed... even though the most logical reading of current laws says that it isn't illegal (except for the gambling part). An anonymously constructed one seems a lot more likely - which Lotus could then anonymously patronize. I do have some ideas for making such possible, but I'm waiting on a defense of three points before I'll release them. These points are: A. My previously mentioned problem with a limited but non-libertarian organization. B. I don't trust the average person to look ahead enough to make this (or other Anarcho-Capitalist) schemes work. In other words, the average person has to be able to see that a non-limited organization is a danger to them, etcetera. Moreover, Jim Bell is ignoring the other sources of propaganda than government in convincing the average person that someone is doing something wrong (when, by my ethics at least, they aren't) - such as religion and various organizations like the PFDA. Admittedly, as I've stated before, the requirement for some money would help, at least to the degree that our economy is meritocratic. (A growing tendency, fortunately.) If most people are on a subsistence wage (the result of free trade & automation with varying human abilities), they can't afford enough money for Assasination Politics. (Yes, I'm an intellectual Elitist. Deal with it.) C. While I may not like dealing with the average person very much (see above), I don't want to see them starving in the streets. I can see governmental welfare as being necessary for this, although the private form is definitely preferable. (And yes, I can justify this as being a libertarian - if not Libertarian Party - viewpoint. If I recall correctly, I had a debate with Perry on this on Libernet, in which he tried to dismiss me as "just a Democrat." I was posting under the name ALLENS(a)YANG.EARLHAM.EDU at the time). -Allen

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