December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Data haven code
by Douglas R. Floyd 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I am looking for beta testers for the data haven code. It should be ready by the tenth to the fifteenth of October. Due to a mishap partly caused my me, the machine that had the code got hosed and I have to re-create most of the work again :(. If you are interested in beta-testing this code, please E-mail me (dfloyd(a)runner.jpl.utsa.edu) and please encrypt the response with PGP. (My key is on the keyservers, or fingerable from lonestar.utsa.edu) Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

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Re: NYT Libertarian News
by samuel.kaplin＠warehouse.mn.org 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- : I wouldn't even refer to him as a libertarian. He's very much :into family values / universal military training / trade protection :for United States industries. He falls very close, ideologically, :alongside the state "militias" out in this part of the country. Those :groups also profess libertarianism while also advocating extremely :draconian Christian social programs. He's also a crook. After his foray into Southeast Asia he went into the treasure hunting business. He defrauded the widow of a man who had been hunting for this one treasure. (Forgive me for the sketchy details, this was on a show on the Discovery channel about 2 years ago. I believe the show was "The Treasure Hunters." Took her for all of her money "continuing the hunt" and never really did anything. On second thought he might just fit in in Washington. He can pal around with Ollie North. They would probably have a blast at one of Packwoods' or Kennedy's parties. ;) - -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.1 mQCNAy5pUekAAAEEAKrDj64Zj9AJU+gC7/Ivdk8b1ef6a1T9K5CGFeu1yFDSXLyD DLIdGunZR/4ilosLMxdlZcNqPwZ3HgxL+Gk3y2SwYfqKpeWExWPgb696lgzf2BRC tED15ZAwi3UDIkcouv2PBiDwPNUUmnLb5diDXdA3qtALb+XzlwpnimeWAf3FAAUT tCFTYW11ZWwgS2FwbGluIDwrMSAoNjEyKSA1MzAtNzMxNj6JAJUCBRAuaVLjQqfV nzRSzxkBAcXuA/47yIN+sltMyIRqCgUZz/gubdI6LUcpFsTcXsFWppROpAWFPJv0 J9z/UoP1kjJ+nrAAizuKuhmC5eg5OOxUE+tUgSPl6hAtu2xJYmKtCbQpxF0sG8ni 4e8I8Zsk5vcopO5Vub96CiVgPjI5vITCb32kcLKI1yyFaztbHdtOasUthrQuU2Ft dWVsIEthcGxpbiA8c2FtdWVsLmthcGxpbkB3YXJlaG91c2UubW4ub3JnPg== =J2S+ - -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fido: Sam Kaplin 1:282/1018 | "...vidi vici veni" - Overheard Compuserve: 75240,131 | outside a Roman brothel. samuel.kaplin(a)warehouse.mn.org | 75240,131(a)compuserve.com | Change is the only constant in the For confidential communications use PGP | Universe..."Four quarters, please." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.1 iQCVAgUBLpOOwQpnimeWAf3FAQFPygQApAf+E+2obEbbNJPQzOTbhzSzB0F6YZKz VzjbgNO3knffXlCS5rILhzSOQU8oxmYK7iiBIeRkhVTvvI1JWm6XtsPVN5fZt1eQ UiOh4H02tS2Hp48PSpi7zZlKK2O2GUgzW8n0UdJyI9UtUtpWA9QorRoH4d5FrJpQ BsKn5AteNkI= =TTmB -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: NYT Libertarian News
by merriman＠metronet.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> >Mike McNally says: >> John Young writes: >> > . . . now comes retired Lieut. Col. James (Bo) Gritz >> >> Mr. Gritz has been usenet flame fodder for quite some time. He's >> either a crypto-fascist (no, not that kind of crypto) or a saviour of >> the American Way, depending on your personal leanings. > >The word "nut" comes to mind... > I hate to correct you, but that's "nut^3" :-) Dave Merriman - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Finger merriman(a)metronet.com for PGP/RIPEM public keys and fingerprints. Unencrypted Email may be ignored without notice to sender. PGP preferred. Remember: It is not enough to _obey_ Big Brother; you must also learn to *love* Big Brother.

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Key Forfeiture, not Key Escrow
by Philip Zimmermann 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The Government seems to choose its terminology carefully in cases where that terminology can affect the politics of a situation. I suggest that we start referring to key escrow as "key forfeiture". Philip Zimmermann

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Re: Hitler's not dead is he?
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Responding to msg by nobody(a)jpunix.com (Anonymous) on Wed, 5 Oct 1:51 AM >P.S. Lewis McCarthy wrote: "Quick, somebody mention >Hitler". Okay. Mr. McDonald is as fascist as Hitler. Er, Hitler was a National Socialist. In those days, as now, everyone used the term indiscriminately, just like "fascist", "free market", "capitalist", "commie", and so on. Everybody gotta try to be more entertainingly original and it ain't easy, at least for me. Play the cryptography game, where no one knows for sure what's real or phony, where anyone can talk the talk like Jim Bidzos, and so on. We're all in the same doodoo together, name-calling by anonymous crypto or not, and so on it goes. John (looking for people wanting to sell ad space on their sigs; I been educated to buy into others stuff rather than think up something original, that's why I post so much from the NYT.)

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private assets in the world
by hughes＠ah.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Some interesting figures recently wafted my way about the sizes of private asset holdings in the world. These are Goldman, Sachs estimates. 4 Trillion (10^12) dollars in total worldwide personal assets 2 Trillion of that is secretly held assets 1.5 Trillion of the secretly held assets are in Switzerland Mighty interesting numbers indeed. Eric

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ClearSig Bug in PGP?
by nobody＠shell.portal.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

can anyone explain the clearsig bug to me, and is there a fix? thnaks man, i;ve been out for a while/

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Re: NYT Libertarian News
by System Operator 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

merriman(a)metronet.com (David K. Merriman) writes: > >Mike McNally says: > >> John Young writes: > >> > . . . now comes retired Lieut. Col. James (Bo) Gritz > >> > >> Mr. Gritz has been usenet flame fodder for quite some time. He's > >> either a crypto-fascist (no, not that kind of crypto) or a saviour of > >> the American Way, depending on your personal leanings. > > > >The word "nut" comes to mind... > > > > I hate to correct you, but that's "nut^3" :-) However you may feel personally about Mr. Gritz (and his connection to Ross Perot, etc), I think he serves at least three useful purposes for other members of society who might be labelled "loose cannons", to wit: 1) When the Sierra Club was working for their particular agenda in the early seventies, many in the "mainstream" dismissed them as whackos on the extreme edge. Later, when Earth First came along and redefined what the environmental movement could become, suddenly the Sierra Club was a reasonable, legitimate voice with which those in authority could reason. Mr. Gritz, IMHO, is in part helping to redefine the "envelope" of so-called patriotism. His extreme measures may serve to help legitimize less unusual actions which are now considered "out there." 2) He serves as a lightning rod for government enforcement. It is often in the best interests of those in power not to drawn the line of acceptable/not acceptable behavior (keep 'em guessing). His actions (and those of Randy Weaver, David Koresh, etc) all drawn attention to the willingness of the government to "do something." It then becomes more possible to predict the actions of certain government agencies. 3) It keeps said agencies busy. Contrary to popular opinion, the resources of the government are not infinite (it only seems that way). The government is more like a few dozen lumbering Goliaths, each stumbling after whichever David is most irritating at the moment. Mr. Gritz serves as the decoy to lure certain giants away from other activites. Federal agents and other resources devoted to gathering intelligence on Mr. Gritz are no longer available to gather intelligence on others. [This resource allocation problem, IMHO, is one the main reasons for the FBI's insistence on the Digital Telephony Bill -- it allows a far greater degree of "intelligence" gathered per expenditure of resource.] Nutty or not, I'll be happy to cheer on Mr. Gritz. > Dave Merriman Dan -- system(a)decode.com (System Operator) Cryptography, Security, Privacy BBS +1 410 730 6734 Data/FAX

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Tcl citations from Cyphernomicon
by bart＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: Richard Stallman of GNU on Tcl > Date: Wed, 05 Oct 1994 10:46:50 -0400 > From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry(a)imsi.com> > > > Fascinating, but why are you sending this to cypherpunks? > > Harry Bartholomew says: > > > > On gnu.announce of 9/23, he writes "Why you should not use Tcl". > > Instead, those wanting to use the Tk tools are commended to a > > Scheme interpreter with it called STk. Available from: > > ftp.cs.indiana.edu:pub/scheme-repository/imp/STk-2.1.tar.Z > For the grep-impaired, see sections 4.5.4 and particularly 13.4.14 of Tim's opus for Tcl relevance to Cypherpunks.

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Re: your mail
by nobody＠jpunix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Black Unicorn <unicorn(a)access.digex.net> wrote: > Anonymous scripsit > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > > > > That being said let it be known that I consider the following as a > > > "Cypherpunk victory." > > > > > > 1. Complete freedom of technology, particularly encryption technology, > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > regulated only by market forces. This implies the lack of import/export > > > restrictions, and a complete absence of projects designed to limit > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > technology, or to standardize it for nefarious ends like Clipper. > > ^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > I think you overgeneralize. No limits on toxic waste incinerators, > >low-mileage automobiles, unsafe medical devices, genetically tampered food, > >or nuclear reactors? "Market forces" in such cases positively encourage > >dangerous technology (e.g. incinerators are superficially cheap) or are > >markedby their inability to distinguish the good from the crap (e.g. medical > >devices). > > It is you who have overgeneralized. No limits on technology certainly > does not mean allowing low tech and poor incinerators to continue operating. > The fact that low mileage cars still drive is a result of poor markets > than anything else (baring colletables). How would you argue that some > low mileage cars are the result of a no limitations on technology policy? A lack of mileage standards, which are regulations on technology, can be expected to result in technology that doesn't meet the standard. > Unsafe medical devices? I would say this is a problem with testing > technology, not a lack of limitation on technological advance. If medical devices are sold without ANY limitation, e.g. the requirement that they be safe and effective, the result is unsafe equipment. Improved testing technology isn't useful if there's no requirement to use it. And "the market" is composed of people who have neither the expertise to test the equipment before they consent to its use, nor (in the case of someone's who's bleeding or in labor) the time. > Genetically tampered food? Why is this dangerous? Have any evidence? > Most of the livestock/crops you eat today have been altered in one way > or another, be it selective breeding, low tech botanical splicing, or > genetic/hormonal therapy. You see this as a regression? In some cases, yes, I see problems in biotech. For example, hormones used in cattle in high doses are known to cause tumors in women in low doses. Whether people would choose to eat horemone-treated meat is debatable; I had thought that the right to make the choice was taken by cypherpunks as an article of faith. Without regulation on the technology, even an innocuous labeling requirement, the right to choose is taken away because consumers can't detect the difference between hormone-treated beef and organic beef. > You never make the distinction between regulation designed to promote and > regulation designed to deter technological advance. Technological advance is a means to an end. Regulations should properly be about insuring the public welfare. While we might reasonably disagree about what that welfare is, clearly technological anarchy doesn't promote it. > Market > forces are lathargic, sometimes they need a boost. I propose this boost > be accomplished with motivators like tax breaks, market assisters and > privatization. Either the market works or it doesn't. You can't decry all government regulation and then call for handouts to businessmen. > When Germany wanted to promote environmentally sound > packaging and manufacture, they started a program called Gruun Punkt (The > Green Point) They allow manufactures to place the green point sticker on > their products provided they meet XYZ specifications. Actually, I think this is a great way to proceed. ======================================================================= Crim Tideson Privacy is its own justification. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBLpKieKvOblMnt4MdAQH72wP+NiE1e/wGy5t2XZla3gRXLRRGpCFeEX5J YtcKLqbym/pV9XRLBuEGIETnrsmJoOrWN+PDlzW02HXRmiad+Wbf1jp/QjPwXkQm 0ysSrrTIkZMsjIlY5ffxzwR8LzQZMhAMliFmFjhE8rAz/fLAqY1N+kT7NLiPyP54 TPOVSSyEhKU= =1dU3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Chomsky (thread from hell)
by nobody＠jpunix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- "Gary Jeffers" <CCGARY(a)MIZZOU1.missouri.edu> wrote: > I remember Chomsky being quoted (I think in a Mother Jones issue) > something to the effect that the opposition to "political correctness" > was not legitimate. Apparently, Chomsky finds at least one kind of > oppression to be not distasteful. > At a Chomsky lecture that I attended, Chomsky described himself as a > left libertarian. I surmise that he finds that grassroots oppression by > the left to be ok. I realize, of course, that "political correctness" > has great mass media & State support. Please post direct, in-context quotes from Chomsky to substantiate your claims, or stop making them. This demonization of Chomsky is so tiresome. ======================================================================= Crim Tideson Privacy is its own justification. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBLpKaIavOblMnt4MdAQEwdQQAu1ztK8Wn9DRaANtklfbXBLZUAw0jRvKI f80gO3YLPZgOqUQV9j9AvoDl8Zqrsonm00gXxo2m7EIoZQtG5MIq9722kzEsxUzS aDipQM3bS9VRDtRrU4UhI5pl730yP6SulcpxRXv65OcSTJOsPNj40U0wC9tipeTk jiPoRSZ71Yg= =2CWO -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: Chomsky quote (thread from hell)
by nobody＠jpunix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > jamesd(a)netcom.com (James A. Donald) wrote: > > >Noam Chomsky, in a 4/16/94 e-mail response to a question from Steve > >Shalom, says: > > > > In my opinion, not only mainstream intellectuals but also others > > who produce a constant stream of lies, distortion, racist screeds, > > etc., should be permitted freedom of speech. The state should not > > have the power to stop them. The same freedom extends to > > hypocrites, like faculty senates who choose one particularly and > > usually quite marginal example because career and power interests > > are served thereby, while ignoring vastly more significant and > > awful cases because the opposite is true. And Congress, of which > > the same is correct. > [utterly specious reasoning deleted] > Thus he is actually making a misleading and spurious > argument *against* freedom of speech at the same time as he > is piously declaring himself to be in favor of freedom of > speech. Leaving aside the fact that you've somehow managed to "prove" to yourself that Chomsky means the opposite of what he clearly and consistently says, what has this to do with cypherpunks? ======================================================================= Crim Tideson Privacy is its own justification. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBLpKchqvOblMnt4MdAQGl2wP8DpmSTLSR+H3xQJY/ygEbVzABPZu436eV vAiJNcNV+PoPw5Bg6p3IBowP40JcYoqjn6Va0PomkLxdWyluwGFlNnorsb2Lq8e8 KOhzMlmnX1CIlXYfxXQxN3wCSYVqDfdhbw/9l/ZLVLWLLT+TH/NFNrj3WIhEmuWJ yXHkKKcHWwM= =ot7V -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Remailers in the uk papers
by Jonathon Fletcher 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Today's OnLine in the Guardian (techy bit every thursday) has an article on anonymous remailers. It's not bad, nice introduction to the concepts, listing of some remailers (penet, the hacktic crowd, soda), a little practical instruction for the use of vox.hacktic (what headers to put in and how to delimit them). It introduces chaining, so mailings can be "super-secure". Quite a pro-remailer article - it's nice to read something like this in a public forum. There's a section on Julf and the amount of traffic that get's passed through penet, as well his address in case the reader wants to help sponsor (or donate something) a faster machine and a better connection to make it run faster. As a small quote, the last three sentences read: "Anonyous remailers can be fun, but try not to react like a child with a new toy. Use these services responsibly. Remember, some people need them badly" - OnLine, the Guardian, October 6th, 1994 The author is "Steve Harris <steveha(a)cix.compulink.co.uk>" -Jon -- Jonathon Fletcher. j.fletcher(a)stirling.ac.uk WWW Home Page: http://www.stir.ac.uk/~jf1

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NATIONAL CRYPTOGRAPHY POLICY
by fhalper＠pilot.njin.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I saw this in Edupage, thought I'd pass it along. Reuben NATIONAL CRYPTOGRAPHY POLICY The National Research Council is conducting a comprehensive study of national cryptography policy, including such topics as: the availability of cryptography technology to foreign and domestic parties; the competitiveness of U.S. manufacturers and users of such technology; U.S. national security and law enforcement interests; relative merits of various cryptographic technologies; demand for information systems security based on cryptography; the impact of foreign restrictions; the extent to which current policy is adequate for protecting U.S. interests; relative merits of current key escrow implementation schemes; feasible policy options; and recommendations for the process through which all interests are balanced in the formulation of national cryptography policy. Send comments and other correspondence to crypto(a)nas.edu. (NRC Release)

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Re: Impact of Free Strong Crypto (Essay of sorts)
by Black Unicorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Carl Ellison scripsit > > Your message signature was bad, BTW. > Oh? Anyone else on the list have this problem? If so I will be happy to re-up with a new sig. -uni- -- 073BB885A786F666 nemo repente fuit turpissimus - potestas scientiae in usu est 6E6D4506F6EDBC17 quaere verum ad infinitum, loquitur sub rosa - wichtig!

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No Subject
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- - ---- Ignore any slobber between above and the PGP line. I just obtained a copy of Doug Floyd's data haven code. I am working on a workable implementation. The address of the data haven will be put on the list as soon as I make SURE the stuff is reliable. Until commands are finalized, they will not be revealed. When the site is up, please don't store much as I do not have that much disk space, and ENCRYPT your files. I fear that someone will send me some stuff that is very illegal, and leave it in the clear. So, I will try to see what is sent, and possibly post it if its not encrypted with something. Heck, use crypt or something better than rot13. I hate to appear as a snooper about people's files, but when this is up, I will demand encryption to protect my DH, and your stuff. PGP is easily available, use it, or DES, or crypt if you live on the dangerzone. Sorry for my prattling, but I am new to this. PS: Doug, use cb. Your code smells like a ten year old dead turkey with its looks. At least its relatively bug-free, and does the job well. Another thing, should you use SHA instead of MD5 for hashing? SHA has more bits, and there is a less chance for two files to collide. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAwUBLpOhhf8zicXJ5vudAQEk1QP8CG+JmzMPnrjRMPzomt/yWvWfWUwQktgS UXwTkLocL5+KkD3/0OHaZ8Eg3jWZnm9D4oPOhBljJX/yOBa7/5opN9nDwUeAmDOs +ULyrEEpfehmrit8wAQcVHvwtQdxaUz8Sg6XRWd0QOOCs71MmLx9JCxR2p2fJyin GPQ9djI7NIU= =1I2L -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Digital Telephony vote TODAY 7PM Eastern
by gnu 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

According to EFF staffer Jonah Seiger: The bill is expected to be voted on in both the House and Senate TODAY! The House is expected to vote at about 7:00 pm (ET) and the Senate shortly there after (although it is still possible that they may not vote until tomorrow). The bill IS expected to pass both bodies. Do what you think is best. John Gilmore

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crypto game idea
by jim＠bilbo 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Crypto-Magic: The Gathering I was recently introduced to the card game Magic: The Gathering. Today over lunch, I realized that this game could be transformed into an ideal networked crypto-game. Why ideal? Magic is a really popular game right now and a network version would require a lot of the crypto technology discussed on this list. So, it's ideal for the purpose of getting crypto into popular use. Brief description of game: Magic is entirely based on cards. There's no dice or board or game pieces. Each card represents a creature, an artifact, a magical ability, or something else (like land). Some cards a common, some uncommon, some very rare. Players each have their own deck of cards which they assemble from a larger collection of cards before the start of the game. They take turns drawing cards from their deck, revealing some (invoking their power), keeping others in their "hand" until later. A player wins when they kill their opponent's "army" (or render it leader-less). Where's the crypto? In my mind, the cards must be handled kind of like digital money. You have to have a way of authenticating cards (can't have players forging new creatures) and you have to have a way of preventing players from duplicating powerful, rare cards. These constraints imply there is some bank-like agency that creates and signs "official" game cards. They could sell them for real digital cash, or Tacky Tokens, or whatever. The "bank", or another third-party service, might have to participate in the play of a game to enforce the constraints. It's not really like digital money, of course, but it would require protocols at least as sophisticated. I haven't thought about this beyond what I've just described, but it seems like a promising idea. Somebody could probably make money at it, if they wanted to. Too bad I'm to busy. Jim_Miller(a)suite.com

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overload of the term "Key Escrow"
by Carl Ellison 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

There has been much discussion since at least 1992, but especially since April 1993, under the general heading of ``Key Escrow''. This term has been severely overloaded in the process, to the point that the term has no trustworthy meaning. What is worse, this overloading is almost certainly because there are topics which are politically sensitive involved and there is a reticence to express these topics openly. It is my intention to bring all of these topics into the open and discuss them, giving them each a label which we can use instead of the poor overloaded "Key Escrow". My list so far includes: export and intelligence access (NSA wants <= 40 bits to crunch on any alg shipped overseas) law enforcement access (FBI wants all cleartext, for everything, everywhere; failing that, it wants keys; and all have to be delivered to some comfortable central listening post) ?voluntary? compliance The Administration says "voluntary" but does it want: user voluntary, manufacturer voluntary + user mandatory, or mandatory ? Are there any other issues hidden behind the term "key escrow" which gov't people don't talk about that anyone thinks I should bring out in the open? Please reply by direct e-mail. Thanks, - Carl

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Re: Changes to remailer@jpunix.com
by Random Factor 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 14:16:46 -0600 > From: "John A. Perry" <perry(a)jpunix.com> > Subject: Changes to remailer(a)jpunix.com > Well folks... > It happened again. Last night jpunix was used to post proprietary > code to the net. I had to spend a couple of hours on the phone with the > authors of the code, generating cancel messages, etc.. It seems that > jpunix is a magnet for those that wish to abuse the remailers. > Since jpunix seems to attract problem users, I have installed some > safeguards in the remailer that will hopefully add a level of difficulty > to those that wish to abuse while remaining transparent to proper usage. here are some other ideas to consider in addition to or instead of the 20k limit: * require encryption for incoming messages. * require that the sender, the receiver, or both be a known remailer address. at least one other remailer has to be involved. * impose a 20k limit on message unless they are received from a known remailer and sent to a known remailer. randy -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6 iQCVAgUBLstzsM1Uod4Abd1NAQGJUwQAnUB9CGdheNImzapwbtlfpWmnygrdpSva qioE5FM3U19knz+nwsEUYKE/xKAyC0G+jou0dmNy+W6NQ9QwCMslQ0YdR3hRxyMT DBiodSFu23H/6R+7PYUNscM9T2Lr/imkHLZZtxbcV7/IBzqlX9VdVFLd5/rWs4Fh Nk+BlhTwwjI= =srSt -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Government and Markets (Again)
by Black Unicorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From: nobody(a)jpunix.com (Anonymous) >> unicorn(a)access.digex.net: >> Unsafe medical devices? I would say this is a problem with testing >> technology, not a lack of limitation on technological advance. >If medical devices are sold without ANY limitation, e.g. the requirement >that they be safe and effective, the result is unsafe equipment. >Improved testing technology isn't useful if there's no requirement to >use it. And "the market" is composed of people who have neither the >expertise to test the equipment before they consent to its use, nor (in >the case of someone's who's bleeding or in labor) the time. The market adjusts to these problems through the civil litigation system. A product is identified as potentially defective/dangerous and a law suit arises. Either the product appears to be responsible or not. The hospital is either responsible for not insuring that the emergency equipment is safe, or it isn't. The costs are ALREADY allocated in this example. Hospitals begin to look into their products with more care instead of relying on some FDA regulation that took 5 years to instate and is probably out of date. Do you think that FDA regulations are any less lagged? How many people have to die before the FDA passes a ban, or a regulation? And worse, how many people die because new products are kept in the wings for years? >> Genetically tampered food? Why is this dangerous? Have any evidence? >> Most of the livestock/crops you eat today have been altered in one way >> or another, be it selective breeding, low tech botanical splicing, or >> genetic/hormonal therapy. You see this as a regression? >In some cases, yes, I see problems in biotech. For example, hormones >used in cattle in high doses are known to cause tumors in women in low >doses. If the market is so faulty, how is it you have this information? In fact it was easy to get wasn't it? So you probably will watch out for hormone treated meat. Poetry in motion the market can be. Look, you did it without any regulation, and without paying 2000 federal employees between 25 and 90 thousand dollars a year. >Whether people would choose to eat hormone-treated meat is >debatable; I had thought that the right to make the choice was taken by >cypherpunks as an article of faith. Exactly. You have information, you are free to make your choice. If you're not a woman, you can eat all the meat you like and not fret over the study. Why? Because the federal government hasn't taken the meat away, or banned the use of hormones which increase the output of meat in certain cattle. >Without regulation on the >technology, even an innocuous labeling requirement, the right to choose >is taken away because consumers can't detect the difference between >hormone-treated beef and organic beef. I think Tim May put this best: T>Underwriters Laboratories, Good Housekeeping ("Seal of Appproval"), T>and Consumer Reports are better testers than any bureacrats in T>Washington, and they are private. Insurance companies have a strong T>interest in safe equipment, as do hospitals, doctors, and even T>patients. Indeed. Listen to yourself: "the right to choose is taken away because [Insert reason of the week here]" In your case it's because "consumers can't detect the difference between hormone-treated beef and organic beef." But you never explain how this is a function that is impossible to accomplish without federal government. Even worse, how do you reconcile this with your previous assertion that :"I had thought that the right to make the choice was taken by cypherpunks as an article of faith." Who is the blasphemer? In fact there is reason to believe the regulation you propose is more harmful than good. Institutions have a lifetime, a staying power if you will. This is why they are no good at setting technological regulation. FDA is a wonderful example of lag, lunacy and backwardness in standards setting. Tim May comments: T>What often happens with government-imposed standards is that some T>lobbying group decides that "cheese is good for you" and so gets T>cheese installed as one of the government-mandated "basic food T>groups." [...] >> You never make the distinction between regulation designed to promote >> and regulation designed to deter technological advance. >Technological advance is a means to an end. Regulations should properly >be about insuring the public welfare. While we might reasonably >disagree about what that welfare is, clearly technological anarchy >doesn't promote it. Not for all of us. Some of us believe the advance of technology is an end unto itself. So many things follow from the advance of technology, sometimes it's all you have to look at to make progress. The shortest distance between two points.... Often this argument reminds me of those who whine about free trade. They want protectionist tariffs. They point out that their backward business is going to be destroyed because some automaker elsewhere in the world is doing a better job, for less. So in the interest of making this special interest group happy, the market is disrupted and all cars are more expensive. The cheap manufacturer has trouble advancing to even greater heights and consumers get the short end of the stick to preserve.... what? Jobs. It's the same thing for technology. Why are the rest of us being held back from eating tomatoes twice the size at half the cost? Because: 1> Real tomato growers are powerful in politics 2> The FDA is a morass of paper and policy 3> The government has anything to do with the tomato market. Where did we lose the concept that you make money when you sell a good product for a good price? When did sympathy for special interest groups come into the picture? I'll tell you when, the 1930's. The result? Today the average citizen depends on government for over half his assets. HALF HIS ASSETS are government entitlements. Think about that very carefully. Soon they are going to be taking away your drivers license for all sorts of reasons. Do you think driving is a government entitlement? Well it is. Why? Because the government got the foot in the door. Today your car keys, tomorrow your crypto keys. >> Market forces are lathargic, sometimes they need a boost. I propose >> this boost be accomplished with motivators like tax breaks, market >> assisters and privatization. >Either the market works or it doesn't. You can't decry all government >regulation and then call for handouts to businessmen. I just can't agree. There are very few black and whites here. Stewart, Krier and Manell point out what are (IMHO) quite legitimate market failures and where intervention is warranted. 1> There has been a fairly liquid exchange and availability to consumers of information in the marketplace. 2> There are no restricted commodities 3> There are large numbers of buyers and sellers in the market. 4> There are no localized externalities. Even in these circumstances, there are many options for intervention, collectivization and regulation being THE LAST ONE ON THE LIST. Tim May: T>Government standards are a two-edged sword. Many of us would prefer to T>"opt out" of their idea of what's healthy and safe and what's not. And that's what real choice is all about. -uni- (Dark) -- 073BB885A786F666 nemo repente fuit turpissimus - potestas scientiae in usu est 6E6D4506F6EDBC17 quaere verum ad infinitum, loquitur sub rosa - wichtig!

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NYC MEETING
by Sandy Sandfort 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . NYC area C'punks, For those of you considering attending the meeting this Saturday, I forgot to mention two things. The Stantons have cats, and smoking is permitted in designated areas only (*outside* their apartment). You gotta problem with that? S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Re: Government vs. Markets
by David K. Merriman 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>"Be very afraid, the Flavor Savor(tm) tomatoes are going to kill us >all!" > Um, Attack of the Killer Tomatoes? :-) Dave Merriman - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Finger merriman(a)metronet.com for PGP/RIPEM public keys and fingerprints. Unencrypted Email may be ignored without notice to sender. PGP preferred. Remember: It is not enough to _obey_ Big Brother; you must also learn to *love* Big Brother.

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Re: Government vs. Markets
by Amanda Walker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> In the main, corporations persuade and governments force. I don't see so much of a difference. There is very little difference in the nature and methods of governments vs. corporations. A government can usefully be viewed as a corporation engaged in the business of public services. It's simply a geographical monopoly, as are many public utilities. Amanda Walker InterCon Systems Corporation

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ANNOUNCE: SF Bay Area Physical Meeting 8 Oct 94
by hughes＠ah.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

What: SF Bay Area Physical Cypherpunks Meeting When: Saturday, 8 Oct 94 12:00 noon - 6:00 p.m. Where: Silicon Graphics, Mt. View (directions below) (Provisional) Theme: Intellectual "Property" Mark Hosler of Negativland will be our (provisional) guest. He's told me he's planning on showing, but I've not been able to confirm with him in the last few days. For those of you who don't know what Negativland is, they're a music group who got into a fracas with Island Records and their own label SST over a recording Negativland did entitled "U2". Mark/Negativland have a new book coming out called _Fair Use_, which is a complete history of the whole affair with both commentary and a complete set of primary source documents. Our theme, therefore, will be intellectual property, information distribution, sampling, etc., with, of course, applications to cryptography. We will also, as always, welcome and expect topics and presentations from the attendees. If you've got something you want to present, you've got the time here. If you've got something you want to discuss, you can have the floor to lead a discussion of it. All are welcome, whether or not you've ever been to a cypherpunks meeting before or not. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- DIRECTIONS: Silicon Graphics, Inc. Building 5 (SGI Cafeteria) 2025 North Shoreline Boulevard Mountain View, CA >From 101 take Shoreline East. This is towards Shoreline Amphitheatre. It's also "logical east", and points more north that east. (That is, it's east with respect to 101 North, which points west near the exit.) If you're coming in on 101 South, you'll cross over the bridge. Continue on Shoreline and go past a whole bunch of other SGI buildings. Turn right onto Steirlin Court at the big red metal sculpture. There will be even more SGI buildings surrounding you--take note of the building numbers. Go almost to the end of this street. Building 5 is on the right.

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