December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Hallandale becomes model for the police state
by William H. Geiger III 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In <3.0.3.32.19981210151350.006add74(a)209.204.247.83>, on 12/10/98 at 09:53 AM, "Albert P. Franco, II" <apf2(a)apf2.com> said: >The REAL injustice is that the only way to strike down these ludicrous >laws is to be able to spend upwards of $5,ooo,ooo for litigation. Just think how much more efficient $5,000,000 of ammo would be for resolving these types of problems. <EG> -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html ---------------------------------------------------------------

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What's up with the blank traffic from algebra.com?
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, Anyone know why algebra.com is throwing the blank messages over the last couple of days? ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: What's up with the blank traffic from algebra.com?
by William H. Geiger III 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In <199812101555.JAA23959(a)einstein.ssz.com>, on 12/10/98 at 10:44 AM, Jim Choate <ravage(a)einstein.ssz.com> said: >Hi, >Anyone know why algebra.com is throwing the blank messages over the last >couple of days? Well I am glad to see it's not just my node that is getting these. :) -- --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.openpgp.net Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html ---------------------------------------------------------------

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strange posts
by Mok-Kong Shen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I obtained a bunch of totally EMPTY posts from owner-cypherpunks(a)Algebra.COM in intervals of about half an hour. Does anyone have the same experience and know what's the matter? (Further it appears that a couple of posts of mine have been delayed and have not yet appreared after the usual waiting time.) M. K. Shen

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MEDIA RELEASE: Data Fellows� F-Secure VPN+ demo; An easy way to test strong Internet encryption
by Marita N�sman-Repo 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Press Release For immediate release Data Fellows F-Secure VPN+ demo An easy way to test strong Internet encryption Espoo, Finland, December 11, 1998. - Data Fellows, one of the worlds leading developers of anti-virus and encryption software, has set up a demo of the commercial version of F-Secure VPN+, whereby companies can test an encrypted IPSec connection between their own machine and a VPN+ Server at the Data Fellows site. The supported platform is Windows NT 4.0 (Intel) with an Ethernet network adapter. The release works on both single and multi-processor machines. An encrypted IPSec connection can be set up by downloading and installing the F-Secure VPN+ Demo Client, available at the Data Fellows web site (http://www.DataFellows.com/f-secure/vpn-plus/demo/) and connecting through it to the F-Secure VPN+ server. This set-up in no way affects a companys other network traffic; all other hosts and network services may be accessed as usual. Unlike the commercial version of VPN+, it is not possible to create encrypted connections to hosts other than VPNPlus.DataFellows.com. This server cannot be contacted without the VPN+ demo client. The demo client has been configured to establish an IPSec encrypted (3des) connection to VPNPlus.DataFellows.com (IP:194.252.6.42). A random session key will be negotiated for each connection. Host authentication is performed using a shared secret 0x462D534543555245 (i.e. "F-SECURE" in hex). Access to all other networks (local/Internet) is provided without additional IPSec security. In the commercial version of F-Secure VPN+, the network administrator determines which connections are permitted and which connections need to be encrypted. The commercial version of the product features F-Secure Administrator for central management, network wide security policy distribution and F-Secure VPN+ Certificate Wizard for a complete VPN Certificate Authority service. In addition to F-Secure VPN+ Demo Client, a Lotus ScreenCam presentation of F-Secure Administrator can be downloaded, as well as the users manual of the commercial version. The presentation shows how easily the network administrator can create and maintain a security policy for the whole Virtual Private Network. End-user installation of the commercial version can be done using AUTOINST network-wide deployment tools and it provides a fully transparent network security solution to the user. No user-interfaces are left to the user to stumble with. About Data Fellows Data Fellows is one of the worlds leading developers of data security products. The Company develops, markets and supports anti-virus, data security and cryptography software products for corporate computer networks. It has principal offices in San Jose, California, and Espoo, Finland, with regional offices and corporate partners, VARs and other distributors in over 80 countries around the world. Data Fellows has customers in more than 100 countries, including many of the worlds largest industrial corporations and best-known telecommunications companies, major international airlines, European governments, post offices and defense forces, and several of the worlds largest banks. The Company was named one of the Top 100 Technology companies in the world by Red Herring magazine in its September 1998 issue. Other commendations include Hot Product of the Year 1997 (Data Communications Magazine); Best Anti-Virus product (SVM Magazine, May 1997); Editors Choice (SECURE Computing Magazine); and the 1996 European Information Technology Prize. About F-Secure products All F-Secure products are integrated into the F-Secure Framework management architecture, which provides a three-tier, scaleable, policy-based management infrastructure to minimize the costs of security management. F-Secure Workstation Suite consists of malicious code detection and removal as well as unobtrusive file and network encryption, all integrated into a policy-based management architecture. F-Secure Anti-Virus, with multiple scanning engines (including F-PROT and AVP), is the most comprehensive, real-time virus scanning and protection system for all Windows platforms. F-Secure VPN+ provides a software-based, IPSec-compliant Virtual Private Network solution for large corporate networks as well as remote and small office networks. F-Secure FileCrypto is the first and only product to integrate strong real-time encryption directly into the Windows file system. F-Secure SSH provides secure remote login, terminal, and other connections over unsecured networks. It is the most widely used secure remote administration tool. F-Secure NameSurfer is the solution for remote Internet and Intranet DNS administration. Its easy-to-use WWW user interface automates and simplifies DNS administration. For more information, please contact: USA: Data Fellows Inc. Mr. Pirkka Palomäki, Product Manager Tel. +1 408 938 6700, fax +1 408 938 6701 E-mail: Pirkka.Palomäki(a)DataFellows.com Europe: Data Fellows Oy Mr. Topi Hautanen, Product Manager PL 24 FIN-02231 ESPOO Tel. +358 9 859 900, fax. +358 9 8599 0599 E-mail: Topi.Hautanen(a)DataFellows.com or visit our web site at http://www.DataFellows.com -- Marita.Nasman-Repo(a)DataFellows.com, World-Wide Web http://www.DataFellows.com

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A URL to the Monday strike?
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi all, Just wondering if there is a URL that describes the proposed strike on Monday? ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re:
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

So you'd be happy to staple a check or money order for a bill to a postcard and send it off? Are you trying to be obtuse, or is it just a natural phenomenon with you? At 06:39 PM 12/9/98 -0500, Robert Wenzler wrote: > > >HaB wrote: ><snip> >> That's a good place to begin, though. "Would you send a letter to >> someone without an envelope?" "Then why not put your email in the >> electronic equivalent of one?" >> >> balance. > >Would I send a letter to someone without an envelope? >One word: postcard.

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Re: Global Strike to protest Wassenaar
by Richard.Bragg＠ssa.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Ever played Mornington Crescent? Try the same thing with e-mail. The idea is that only those in the game know "the rules". These rules can change at any time in any way and all "real players" can tell about the new "rules" and adjust accordingly. The idea would be to exchange nothing while make it appear to be exchanging information of real importance. OK so this will be just like any managment memo but you must get my drift. Hack together a proggy to "encrypt" a message but really just generates garbage, just like politicians. Leave patterns in it so it looks real.

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Wassenaar summary (and a funny new loophole)
by ulf＠fitug.de 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> The Wassenaar Arrangement has put up the Dec. 3 lists > agreed to by members: To summarize the crypto rules: Software is freely exportable if it has been made available without restrictions upon its further dissemination. Copyright restrictions do not count. Mass market cryto software is no longer covered by the General Software Note, but by a Cryptography Note. Under that note, mass market software and hardware is not controlled if it does not use symmetric keys longer than 64 bits and the cryptographic functionality cannot easily changed by the user. Systems that do not meet those conditions are export-controlled if they use symmetric encryption with more than 56 bit keys, algorithms based on factorization or on logarithms in finite fields with more than 512 bit keys (e.g. RSA, DH) or on discrete logarithms in other groups (such as elliptic curves) with more than 112 bits. They may be exported for personal use. There are exceptions for execution of copy-protected software and read-only media and for phones without end-to-end encryption. The list contains an amusing editorial error which would for the first time allow the export of strong crypto hardware. "Symmetric algorithm" is defined to mean 'a cryptographic algorithm using an identical key for both encryption and decryption', whereas an algorithm using 'different mathematically-related keys for encryption and decryption' is an "asymmetric algorithm". Since the definition differentiates algorithms by symmetry rather than by their cryptographic properties, there is no restriction whatsoever on asymmetric secret-key encryption algorithms. Those algorithms typically are not based on factorization or discrete logarithms. That is, they are no longer controlled by the Wassenaar arrangement. Better yet, mass-market crypto systems are not controlled if they 'do not contain a "symmetric algorithm" employing a key length exceeding 64 bits'. So you can use, say, 2048 bit RSA with an asymmetric secret-key algorithm of 128 bit key length (so the system does not contain a symmetric algorithm), and you're free to export it.

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RE: Global Strike to protest Wassenaar
by Brown, R Ken 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Richard Bragg wrote: > Ever played Mornington Crescent? Try the same thing with > e-mail. The idea is that only those in the game know "the rules". > These rules can change at any time in any way and all > "real players" can tell about the new "rules" and adjust accordingly. showing of course that he either doesn't know the *real* rules of Mornington Crescent or else (more likely) doesn't want to reveal them! Oh, and this posting quite clearly wins this round - even with the new DLR extensions and the Elverson Road footbridge:-) Ken

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test2
by Igor Chudov 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

test

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test4
by Igor Chudov 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

test4

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Future War on TDL...
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi, Check out Futurewar on The Discovery Channel, it's been playing since 8pm Central. Bruce Sterling appears for a blipvert. ____________________________________________________________________ | | | The most powerful passion in life is not love or hate, | | but the desire to edit somebody elses words. | | | | Sign in Ed Barsis' office | | | | _____ The Armadillo Group | | ,::////;::-. Austin, Tx. USA | | /:'///// ``::>/|/ http://www.ssz.com/ | | .', |||| `/( e\ | | -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- Jim Choate | | ravage(a)ssz.com | | 512-451-7087 | |____________________________________________________________________|

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<sigh>
by William H. Geiger III 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Due to a misbehaving mailing list I have lost some mail this morning. :( If you have sent any message to me between 00:00-13:00 GMT-0400 today please resend the message. Also could someone from the mailing list send me copies of the messages that I have missed. Thanks, - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBM85dN49Co1n+aLhhAQF3fAP8Db4z+7GLaSsst8ZkGVG151NO4lIt0wbR S5oRTbLWRQbuAGccvGvKJSLtu3QPzn1wwp3khVJiVvz6QvweMTXBd6IV7QNvhE5o An519HaatiAICAgkPcBC5/l1SkTfcRxX8GYk1SUWI8Ockw9zyLZtY9VsbgtgD3Yk QFqprV7VQrQ= =fiQQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: payment & tents
by Hacking In Progress 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On 8 Jul 97 at 23:21, Secret Squirrel wrote: > Can you please tell me where tents (for 10+ people) > can be bought/hired in the region of Amsterdam ? > Some of us are eagerly trying to organise this aspect > of the trip, and would welcome pointers. Try for rent: In Purmerend, Netherlands call 02994-20999 They rent army tents. But you'll have to arrange everything with them we can't do that. Expect around 350 guilders rent and about 1000 for deposit. Maurice > Also, I cannot read the [INLINE] phone numbers to call > with my credit card number - can you please publish > both answers on your mailing list ? Call in the Netherlands to 31 20 6263438 cu, Maurice Wessling -- Hacking in Progress 8-9-10 August Tents, TCP/IP, Jolt and politics http://www.hip97.nl/

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Re: EuroEnglish
by nobody＠replay.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Viz speling lik zis, ho neds kriptografy? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE EUROPEAN UNION COMMISSIONERS > > An agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred > language for European communications, rather than German, which was the > other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government > conceded that English spelling has some room for improvement and has > accepted a five-year phased plan for what will be known as EuroEnglish > (Euro for short). > > In the first year, "s" will be used instead of "c". Sertainly sivil > servants will resieve this news with joy. Also, the hard "c" will be > replaced with "k". Not only will this klear up konfusion, but komputers > and typewriters kan have one less letter. > > There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the > troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f". This will make words like > "fotograf" 20 per sent shorter. > > In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be > expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are > possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double letters, > which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre > that the horible mes of silent "e"s in the languag is disgracful, and > they would go. > > By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing > "th" with "z" and "w" with "v". > > During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining > "ou", and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of > leters. After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer > vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi to > understand ech ozer. > > ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >

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Re: MIT Fascism
by No Taxes through No Government 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>True enough. Most of our rules have been bundled together. Either you >accept all of them or you walk away. So Tim, if you don't like the FBI The above false information incorrectly assumes that all laws apply to all people.

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Re: In Search of Genuine DigiCash
by rah＠shipwright.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 8:27 AM 8/23/94 -0400, Peter Wayner wrote: >tcmay(a)netcom.com (Timothy C. May) wrote: >> >>I don't think any of us on this list is yet ready to present a plan to >>real bankers. Eric Hughes has told me he agrees. > >Real bankers may be well ahead of everyone on this list. I'm told that >Citibank has some very intriguing work pending at the patent office. It's >for digital cash. Thank you. This is exactly the kind of stuff I've been talking about. Real bankers aren't completely necessary. This is why my thinking has changed on the subject. You need financial accumen to make sure you don't spend down your suspension account, but that (cash portfolio management) can be purchased from lots places besides real banks. The technology of digital cash is something that Citicorp thinks it has to reinvent. That's par for the course. But you don't need a real banker to run a secure www/Secure Mosaic node. You barely need real bankers to hook in to the ATM system as long as you can prove that nobody, including the underwriter, sniff the user's card swipe and PIN number. You don't need real bankers to make sure that the fraud laws cover double spending of digital cash. You don't need bankers to make sure that you comply with cash reporting requirements when money comes on and off the net. Wiring all the above together to make a digital cash underwriter is doable at a relatively small level, without bankers for the most part. This is why Citicorp, and other banks like it, are going to shoot themselves in the foot when they try. I 'm pretty sure, having worked for Citicorp myself, they spent big piles of money trying to engineer around Chaum (or anybody else). Chaum almost has a viable product, which will cost a whole lot less (even if he gets his cut of profits) to implement from the underwriter's standpoint. Citicorp has tried this "We are The Technologists" tack in Travel (CIMS), Point of Sale data collection (CPOS), Telephone Banking (they even invented their own dial up terminal!) and several other unrelated businesses. They failed because of an institutional mentality of Not Invented Here and a very centralized, top-down management style. They're not much different from most other very large banks, I'm afraid. Citicorp's early success in bank Data Processing during the late 60's and early 70's, first in ATMs (they aren't the largest any more by a long shot), and the credit cards (same here), makes them, and some readers of this list, think they are a 900lb gorilla when it comes to digital cash. They aren't. Neither is any bank, no matter how large they are. I'd be real interested to see if Citibank can beat an onslaught of smaller underwriters who can offer cash at smaller margins than they can. Folks, the costs of an operation like a digital cash underwriter aren't too difficult to imagine. The entry cost for the average underwriter (if the market is there to support one) is not nearly the amount that Citicorp is going to spend putting up theirs, and so Citicorp will loose money on this investment as well, and eventually back out. It's like people who go in to see the machine The Well runs on. Their jaw drops at how small the box really is. If Citicorp did it the machine would be 10 times bigger and cost 10 times as much, to justify their hockey-stick earnings estimate and a cast of a thousand managers and analysts. The thing that's important here is Grove's Law. Chips have an economic half-life of 18 months, which drops the cost of any computer based business accordingly, along with the costs of entry into those businesses. I've personally seen large companies go into a new high-tech service businesses and kill their entry with overengineering and bloated middle management. You see it in the Wall Street Journal all the time. At some point, if the market is there, there will probably be a consolidation in digital cash underwriting, and larger companies will emerge as economies of scale become evident. But to think that any company can come into a completely different operating paradigm and take over from the start just because they're huge somewhere else is probably not going to wash. Think about railroads and airplanes. If the railroads seriously tried to fund aircraft development, they would have gotten smeared. They would still be trying to make a steam powered plane fly the day Douglas delivered the first DC-3. The banks aren't the big bad monsters we fear them for. Their participation in the market is necessary, as is the participation of most financial instutions, but an Argumentum ad Bacculum with the Banks as the threat of force is pretty much a waste of breath. Sorry. I promise not to turn blue next time. Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) "There is no difference between someone Shipwright Development Corporation who eats too little and sees Heaven and 44 Farquhar Street someone who drinks too much and sees Boston, MA 02331 USA snakes." -- Bertrand Russell (617) 323-7923

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Re: Nuclear Weapons Material
by jdd＠aiki.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In message <paBMkOwscIgG070yn(a)io.org> Mark Terka writes: > Not to mention the fact that without tritium, the "trigger" for nuclear > weapons (and extremely expensive and rare at $ 100m a gram) all you have > is a radioactive paperweight. To the best of my knowledge, tritium is not used in nuclear weapons (meaning A-bombs), only in thermonuclear weapons (H-bombs). One of my teachers was involved in the Manhattan project; he never mentioned any need for tritium. -- Jim Dixon

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Re: Voluntary Governments?
by jdd＠aiki.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In message <199408230610.XAA15960(a)netcom3.netcom.com> "Timothy C. May" writes: > Jason Solinsky wrote: > > Easily. They could deny you access to services of greater value than the > > tax being imposed. MIT weilds this power quite successfully. This thread > > Jason is confusing markets and governments. > > A movie theater that sells tickets is not "taxing" its patrons--it is > selling access. A university that charges tuition is not "taxing" its > customers. > > [ complications deleted] > > To call all negotiated prices "taxes" is, bluntly, > absurd. It also cheapens the language by throwing away the essential > distinction between market prices and taxes. Jason's use of the term 'tax' in a special sense is no more an abuse of the language than the attempt to change the conventional meaning of the word 'government'. He says that institutions like MIT govern the behavior of their special populations, that they can impose levies on their users, and that they can enforce rules against their users without the use of physical force. > In any case, something is a "market price" if one can walk away from > the transaction. I know of almost nothing the U.S. government calls a > "tax" that taxpayers are free to walk away from, to not pay (and thus > not receive the service). You can walk away from almost all US taxes by walking away from the USA. I have. What about luxury taxes, fishing licenses, flying licenses, and so forth? If you insist on calling these 'market prices', you begin to really rip the fabric of the language. -- Jim Dixon

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Death & Taxes
by frissell＠panix.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Steve Witham & Jason W Solinsky seem to be sowing a bit of confusion about government and taxes. Steve says: >This is the "monopoly on force in a geographical area" definition of >government. It's also pretty much government as we know it. It's a >fundamentally bad idea and it's what James and I are against. But I don't >think it's a good definition of "government." It *is*, however, the definition that my very commie-liberal poly sci department taught me when I was studying with them. Also "That institution charged with the authoritative allocation of values in society." >The reason is that what most people mean by "government" is a set of >services, the main ones being what James calls "true law": police, courts, >and defense--protection services for large numbers of people. Experts in taxonomy always try to define a species by the characteristics that *distinguish* it from other species. Not those characteristics that are the same. Governments are distinguished by their claim of monopoly on judging the appropriateness of uses of force within a given geographic area. Thus the symbol of a king's office is often a mace (club) and a sword. The American Eagle has arrows clutched in one claw. And in most times and places only the sovereign and his cronies are allowed to carry weapons. The peasants are prohibited from doing so. Jason says: A cybergovernment says "Do as we say or you can't communicate with our citizens" MIT says "Do as we say or go somewhere else" US democrats say "If you don't like US laws, move somewhere else" Actually, if you are a citizen you are bound by US tax laws even if you move to Alpha Centauri. Or if you are a narco terrorist you need not even be a citizen. MIT remains largely consensual. Governments do not. If they become mere market actors as I expect that they will, then they will no longer be the sorts of monopoly institutions that we refer to with the word -- "government." Actually "Self-Government vs. Others-Government" is the real split (with thanks to the Advocates for Self Government. DCF "You speak Treason!" - The Lady Marion Fitzwalter "Fluently!" - Sir Robin of Loxley Not from the politically correct version.

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Zimmerman's use of PGP
by Bill O'Hanlon 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

As anyone who has ever sent an encrypted "Really neat program, Phil!" message to Phillip Zimmerman knows, he doesn't run PGP where he reads his mail. He has to download messages to decrypt on a local machine. All of the cute elm/vi/emacs/mh/pine scripts you wanna post won't help him. -Bill (P.S. Back when he didn't get so much mail, if you'd done the above, you'd get a response in a couple weeks, telling you this. He mentioned that he saw the irony of the situation -- that the inventor of PGP couldn't make convenient use of it.)

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archives for cypherpunks?
by PatHuff＠world.std.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Do any archives exist for this group? I would be intereted in scaning them. Pat. PatHuff(a)world.std.com

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Re: Voluntary Governments?
by rah＠shipwright.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 3:14 PM 8/23/94 -0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote: >Russell Nelson says: >> In our high school we had a student government. We had no prisons >> and no guns. >> >> Then you were a club. > >Indeed. [snip] >(I once was part of a >debate held by Columbia University's Philolexian Society on the topic >"Resolved: Student Government is Amazingly Lame", in which I noted >that the low probability of a student government coup d'etat complete >with tanks rolling about the campus, and of the following student >government dictatorship run by a student military junta, demonstrated >that the student "government" wasn't a government but a weak way to >keep students placated, devoid even of the mild entertainment the >occassional revolt could bring.) Alas. How true. One of my friends got elected student government president at the University of Missouri by standing outside polling places in a clown suit bribing people to vote for him with play money. Later that year, I authored a student senate declaration of war against the University of Wisconsin. They had originated the concept of snickerocracy, or rule by clowns, and as potential competition for scarce laughs had to be destroyed. The declaration passed unanimously. We passed the hat in the bars for our defense budget (to be spent by the sacred Council of War, COW for short), and sent four determined and somewhat inebriated agriculture majors to Wisconsin's dairy barns to collect one ton of bullshit and deposit it on their student union steps at 3 am. In their defense, I must say that the administration generously let us (the senate) vote on the allocation of about $1.3 million of the university's money (somewhat less than 1% of the total, I believe), which made for a lot of sand in the old sandbox. And, I got to meet both Timothy Leary and Ralph Nader out of the deal. I have trouble telling them apart to this day... Ah, Yout'! Adulthood is terminal, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) "There is no difference between someone Shipwright Development Corporation who eats too little and sees Heaven and 44 Farquhar Street someone who drinks too much and sees Boston, MA 02331 USA snakes." -- Bertrand Russell (617) 323-7923

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Re: Voluntary Governments?
by rah＠shipwright.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 2:37 PM 8/23/94 -0500, Jim choate wrote: >Can't speak for MIT but I can speak for UT Austin, they do have cells to hold >prisoners. The security forces at that school attend the Tx Dept. of Public >Safety training school and hold state law enforcement positions. The last >thing you want to do is really piss one of these guys, you would end up >in one of the state prisons for several years, Huntsville probably. The University of Chicago, where I went for awhile, has the third largest police force in Illinois, after the Chicago PD and the State troopers. They have guns and cells. During the Cambodian days of rage, the administration had an interesting tactic. The acquiesced to the students' demands and took their pictures as they left. Then they expelled them all. Not violent, really, but harmful, maybe. "Hyde Park, where Black and White stand shoulder to shoulder against the Poor." (Nichols and May[not Tim]), Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) "There is no difference between someone Shipwright Development Corporation who eats too little and sees Heaven and 44 Farquhar Street someone who drinks too much and sees Boston, MA 02331 USA snakes." -- Bertrand Russell (617) 323-7923

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