December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Kid Scan (tm)
by Jim choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > > "Fortress": very stupid movie about a high-tech megaprison in the > future. Prisoners are implanted with "intestinators" that have some > local intelligence as well as communications abilities. The > intestinators can of course be made to cause the prisoners to blow up. > > > -- > Mike McNally : m5(a)tivoli.com : Day Laborer : Tivoli Systems : Austin, TX > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Remember that all experimentation does not produce extrapolated results. > - k. pisichko > Thanks, I feel a little less ignorant now, I thought it was something real... Merry Christmas

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Eavedropping devices
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I appreciate the replies I received on "how to cheaply detect eavesdropping devices," but I'm afraid that I do not have access to the types of equipment which were mentioned (IR glasses, etc). Any further suggestions? PS - Has anyone else been watching the lunatic ravings of one l.detweiler on comp.org.eff.talk? This guy is a fucking fruitcake!

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Hut six
by norm＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"Hut Six" by Welchman seems to be out of print. The book describes early Bletchley Park work on the German Enigma cypher system. Does anyone know where to get a copy?

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It had to happen...
by Mike Ingle 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Today I got an interesting message. It seems that someone was doing some hardcore hacking of machines at a university campus. The person used one of these accounts to send me a message requesting a copy of Secure Drive. This message and my response were wiretapped by the people investigating the hacking. They traced the hacker and arrested him. His computer was encrypted with Secure Drive. The IS manager involved sent me a message asking me how to break Secure Drive, because they can't prosecute the person without the data, and the suspect has of course forgotten the encryption passphrase. So far I don't have many details other than these. I hope to find out more. I'd like to talk to the investigator and to the suspect. I sent the IS manager a copy of Secure Drive and told him how it works, but that's about all I can do. --- Mike

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Re: eavesdropping detection
by George A. Gleason 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Re phone taps: forget it. Anything above amateur level tapping is done via the central office, where it is simply impossible to detect. Any device which claims to detect wiretaps is fraudulent. I'm speaking from over ten years' experience in telecom, extensive relevant background, etc. Room surveillance: you have to be *really* up to something to be targeted for this. Unlikely at best; but he earlier post about spec analysers is useful & relevant here. Generally: bear in mind that surveillance is incredibly labor intensive at any level beyond the "vaccuum-cleaner approach" using keyword scans on trunks. Too labor intensive to be conducted unless there is serious justification for the cost of the person-hours involved. -gg

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Re: It had to happen...
by wcs＠anchor.ho.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The cracker who's using Secure Drive could be an interesting case. Unfortunately, assuming that a cracker at a university is probably a student, he may not hve very good legal representation, and I'd hate to see bad precedent on "can you be forced to reveal your key" set because someone is not only a tresspasser but a stupid one as well. Do you know if the wiretapping was being done by police, or if it was just the university staff with ethernet sniffers? I was interested by your comment that they can't prosecute the person without the data; while it could certainly be helpful to have, one would hope they had a reasonably solid case *before* they went and arrested him..... Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart NCR Corp, 6870 Koll Center Parkway, Pleasanton CA, 94566 # Voice/Beeper 510-224-7043, Phone 510-484-6204 # email bill.stewart(a)pleasantonca.ncr.com billstewart(a)attmail.com

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The Cypherpunk Equation
by L. Detweiler 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Pseudospoofing == Privacy

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Re: It had to happen... (fwd)
by Harry Shapiro 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

a conscious being, Jim choate wrote: > Assuming the arrest warrant was good not revealing the key to a duly > authorized court representative would be illegal (ie interfereing with a > police investigation). If the courts serve a warrant for your arrest and the > confiscation of data on your hard drive (and you refuse to turn the data over > even after talking w/ an attorney) is specificaly mentioned you are opening > yourself up for another whole world of legal hurt. I would like to hear what Duncan has to say, but... 1) He did give them the data, they just can't read it. (not his problem). LIke if I wrote some notes in French, I don't think I woudl be required to translate them. 2) Then their is the issue of 5th Admendment issues... /hawk

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it had to happen......
by Brian D Williams 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Bill Stewart writes; >Assuming the arrest warrant was good not revealing the key to a >duly authorized court representative would be illegal (ie >interfereing with a police investigation). If the courts serve a >warrant for your arrest and the confiscation of data on your hard >drive (and you refuse to turn the data over even after talking w/ >an attorney) is specificaly mentioned you are opening >yourself up for another whole world of legal hurt. >A citizen would have the legal right to refuse prior to talking w/ >an attorney but not after, at that point it becomes witholding >evidence. >If the process is legal there should be no reason a citizen can >refuse to turn over his private keys (I don't believe >self-incrimination holds here). Well no doubt they have his True_Name now. I'm curious as to why they are so adamant about trying to break the encryption? I get the impression they don't have much of a case. Don't forget kids to save those sniffer tracings, they could earn you valuable prizes! I won't even go into how dumb it is to try accessing a cracked system through a single cutout, kids don't try this at home ;) Brian Williams Extropian Cypherpatriot smarter than your average bear. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.3a iQCVAgUBLRn01tCcBnAsu2t1AQFSYwQAoQiqSmUmnl1CLOr94DF3V+4i274mGl+b kKyX8VU1FFFfY6jD8LC2EeMITFX0vJkuA29WxYEomUEa1WRlqt1z+wOahgpPaPzT ipyY0JF6xTOMSmTBnvsfEZWsJUHC4qTiNbQaONg5ooMic75bcnhWXTENfBFOlB50 E+f9M4GfPV0= =uGUA -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Adolf the Nazi
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Isn't Detweiler a German name? Herr Adolf Detweiler.

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Re: Merry Christmas, Cyberanarchists
by ub075＠freenet.victoria.bc.ca 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Of course it can. Detweiler always posts from an12070(a)anon.penet.fi > >Incidently, all those replying to this thread thus far have sent mail >to an12070(a)anon.penet.fi and thus have compromised their anonymous IDs >because of the double blinding feature. Not always. If your anon ID has a password set, your message will just be returned to you, with an error message.. Assuming: 1. The person has an anon ID in the first place. 2. You have a password set on your anon ID. I don't really see why you wouldn't. -- Ryan Perkins - 1:340/13 | I feel that suicide jumpers see a glimpse of ub075(a)freenet.victoria.bc.ca | sanity as they throw themselves from the ledge. Ask for PGP 2.3 public key | That's why they scream all the way down. 8C5357 : 9F FF BA 93 54 D5 18 78 4B 1E DA GC E3 4E

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(fwd) A safer, saner Detweiler
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk From: sburkart(a)cpp.PHA.PA.US (Stephen Burkart) Subject: A safer, saner Detweiler Organization: Critical Path Project Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1993 16:00:07 GMT Keywords: CRYPTOANARCHIST PROMOTERS of SODOMY Found: a (Philadelphia) City Paper review of Covert Culture Sourcebook, which closed out with: "Debating the "cutting", or rather "covert" edge, is beginning to seem as silly as labeling bands "alternative," since so much of it is becoming more and more chic. Still, it's not as if mainstream-king Jesse Helms (scapegoat for all ultra-conservatives that he is) will pick up this book and say, "Hmmm, maybe I _will_ subsribe to Future Sex...." (review written by Margit Detweiler, who is no doubt a tentacle.)

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Re: anonymous video rental store
by peb＠PROCASE.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>it is illegal for video stores to disclose rental records anyway. I believe the law was passed quickly after a reporter obtained a list of videos rented by a Supreme Court nominee (or some other nomination that must be approved by congress). In the particular case, there was nothing that the most sensitive, politically correct, family-values-affirmin' [okay, that's enough] person would object to. But, congress passed a law within weeks, presumably because they didn't want their rentals scrutinized. I wonder whether the list of books checked out at public libraries is public information...[eh, nothing dicey there anyway, except Howl]. This shows how reactionary and patch-work oriented the legal system is. A Simple Way to Rent Anonymously, but not cheaply:: buy the tape for cash and then sell it when you are done. This could cost 60% of the retail price, but you get the tape for almost any length of time. Audio CDs are effectively "rented" in this way, with the 60% cost being average. Paul E. Baclace peb(a)procase.com

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Re: picture signatures
by peb＠PROCASE.COM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

There is no need to sign the picture itself: a secure time stamp would prove ownership of the oldest version of a picture: CryptoHashA(picture) --> H_i Then the timestamp service: CryptoHashB(H_i, H_j) --> H_receipt ; H_j is hash from another customer The H_receipt is published in a well-known place/time and is traceable to the picture. The actual scheme the Bellcore folks worked out is tree structured for efficiency reasons. An altered version of a photo would presumably have a different hash, but it would not have an earlier timestamp hash. Insofar as one could recognize that an image was incorporated into another altered image, misappropriated and stolen copyrights could be detected. Recognition is inherent in this process. This isn't very different from sound sampling: if the alteration completely obscures the orignal beyond recognition, then there isn't much of a case to prove theft. For a picture example, I could digitize a copyrighted image and use *only* it's color palette on one of my pictures (I haven't tried this yet, but it sounds like a good "empircal color theory"). BTW, Anyone have an email addr of the Bellcore folks who invented the secure timestamp system? I'd like to use the service if it is still operational. Paul E. Baclace peb(a)procase.com

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mail-to-news gateway
by Eric Hollander 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I've modified the gateway so that it is non-anon, for a few reasons: It seems that this makes it more general purpose. It seems that it will be less likely to be shut down this way (the soda administration is quite anti-cypherpunk; I actually got thrown off root there because I defended our archives). The other thing that I might do is have two options: Request-Post: alt.sex.sodomy.pseudospoofing.detweiler and Request-Anon-Post: alt.sex.sodomy.pseudospoofing.detweiler with the obvious meanings. Although to make it more consistent with the other header lines, it should be: Request-Posting: alt.sex.sodomy.pseudospoofing.detweiler I want to make these header lines as logically consistent as possible. What's the most logic format? Also, right now my remailer has a random time delay feature. The posting service does not have that feature, although if I implement anon posting, I will probably put it in for anon posting only. THIS IS AN EXPERIMENTAL SERVICE, SO PLEASE DO NOT SPREAD THE WORD, AND PLEASE CONFINE YOUR POSTINGS TO THE *.test GROUPS. IF PEOPLE START ABUSING IT, I WILL TURN IT OFF. Speaking of turning it off, the other feature I'm soon going to implement is a "prekill" file, so that certain people can be "86ed" from my remailers and posters. e

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Re: It had to happen...
by Jim choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the period 72 hrs. max without seeing a judge or having charges filed? After that a Writ of Habeas Corpus is almost a formality (course I ain't no lawyer so what do I know about actuality...).

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Re: Encryption and Self-Incrimination
by Jim choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > > You wrote - > > > Consider this, > > > > in a criminal investigation you can be forced to allow access to safety > > deposit boxes and their contents, how is this any different? > > I think the key here is that there has to be some valid supposition > of a criminal act before this can happen. In other words, Officer > George G. Prick at local precinct house 5 can't simply compel you > to provide access to this type of material on a whim. Do you see > my point? > > -- Paul > I see it fully, unfortunately it isn't the point I am trying to make. What I am trying to ask is what happens when a officer tells a judge something like the following, Officer: "Your Honor, we stopped the suspect and he had cocaine and this computer in the car. We suspect he has drug trafficing related data on the drive. Our technical people have determined that the drive is encrypted." Judge: "Did the accused turn over the key when requested?" Officer: "No sir, he says that it would be self-incriminating." Judge: (this is the point at which I am addressing.) Exactly what can the judge do at this point? As I understand the situation right now there is no legal precidence that requires the suspect to turn over the key. However, since there is clearly evidence for suspicion the court has a responsibility to its office to gain access to that drive in any legal means possible. The courst is prohibited from 'forcing' the suspect to reveal the key thanks to the 5th. So the judge (to my admittedly laymen view) has only one thing to do, order the accused to turn the key over or go to jail for contempt of court. Hence, the suspect goes to jail for contempt and stays there until either the original judge decides it ain't worth further trouble or a higher court over rules the lower court and releases you (I wouldn't hold my breath for the latter to happen in most cases). In short you could spend years in jail without ever actually going to trial. The end result is the same, you spend years in jail (possibly).. In short having a the drive crypto does only one thing and that is protect you from the original charge (assuming all incriminating evidence exists only on the drive) it does not in any way protect you from spending time in jail. I fail to see how the court could do much else...So the conclusion that I come to is that the contents of the drive would have to merit a sentence more aggregious than a decade or two in jail.

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Re: anonymous video rental store - Libraries
by wcs＠anchor.ho.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Out of curiousity, has any ftp-archive maintainer tried to join the American Library Association, either directly or as part of some university's library system? It would be an interesting way to start building precedents. Are there any equivalent international or non-US national library associations that take strong anti-censorship pro-privacy positions?

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Encryption & self-incrimination
by Mike Ingle 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Isn't there a limit as to how long they can lock you up for contempt of court? Most crimes do have a maximum sentence.

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More on Secure Drive/hacking case
by Mike Ingle 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I learned a few more details about this case. First of all, it's in Canada, so U.S. precedent will not be set. The suspect had been hacking, using several accounts. He requested Secure Drive using one of them, and the people investigating the hacking had the system programmed to record all keystrokes through this account. They intercepted a copy of Secure Drive as he was downloading it, but at that time they hadn't found him yet. Imagine their frustration, watching the as-yet-unknown hacker acquire a program which will make him very difficult to prosecute. The hacker also had PGP and some files, and they are looking through the files to see if they can find the key. They said the suspect seemed "particularly glib" about the Secure Drive protection. They are going to attempt to break Secure Drive. He asked me to write a program which will take a list of passphrases and test them quickly to run a passphrase attack. I had a few qualms about writing a program to crack someone's data, but I don't think it really matters. Unless the hacker chose a very lame key, they don't have a prayer in hell.

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A Message from Medusa
by L. Detweiler 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I am cleaning out my archives of past mail to respond to. Some people still persist in believing that absolutely no pseudospoofing is occuring on behalf of the Cypherpunks. I have over a thousand messages that suggest quite to the contrary. Below is one of my favorites. E.Brandt, a longtime cypherpunk list subscriber, explains to me that he is Medusa. If anyone wishes to debate my claims on the existence of pseudospoofing, please do your homework and email Mr. Brandt to determine the meaning of his message below. I will be most amused if you get no response, one that complains that he was being facetious, or one that complains his privacy has been violated. I would be further amused at anyone's attempts to determine any aspect of Mr. Brandt's life that suggests he is a real human being. In the letter, We have the familiar techniques of the ad hominem attack on S.Boxx (Mr. Brandt is definitely dragging down his preeminent reputation by claiming that he is in some way affiliated with me <g>). This is the mandatory `pseudonymity is OK as long as it glorifies us' hypocrisy of the cypherpunks. The letter also has a manifestation of Medusa's uncommonly noxious arrogance. She cannot help but to brag, ``I AM MEDUSA, CONTROLLER OF ALL TENTACLES!'' But the unusual aspect of this message was that exhibited a strong degree of desperation on the part of Medusa. She actually offered to apologize if I could reveal how I identify tentacles! Again, we have the Hughes-May-Gilmore idea that `if there is no evidence, there is no crime.' Unfortunately for Medusa, obviously I cannot reveal this sensitive information. Medusa went away quite upset despite initiating this conversation, asking me and my postmaster not to send any more mail. Mr. Brandt, if you don't want me to send *you* mail, don't send *me* any. The source of the desperation was probably due to the increasing attention and exposure to cypherpunks `out there' on other mailing lists and in the newsgroups, which is obviously getting more difficult to maintain with all the tentacle damage control. They think that the cascades beneath every new message saying ``L.Detweiler is insane'' effectively nullify the damaging truth and publicity of the messages. The cypherpunks don't understand that sometimes when people are most influenced, they are at first silent. Damage control by `lackeys' is not effective when the leaders themselves are challenged. Cypherpunks and your leaders, if you wish to convince me or anyone else that you are not pseudospoofing, you should definitely avoid sending anyone a letter like this. ===cut=here===

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Cyberparanoia
by L. Detweiler 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I thought I would share with you a message that shows the consequences of pseudospoofing. The problem is that if *anyone* accuses *anyone* of doing it, suddenly *all* email addresses are thrown into doubt. I think the Internet has long operated on the assumption that everyone is honest, but that this assumption is breaking down in the face of genuinely malicious individuals with a great deal of commitment to deception. This message appeared on a highly trusted list moderated by D.Farber, the `interesting people' list. He compiles material from a wide variety of sources and acts as a sort of cyberspatial newspaper outlet. Unfortunately, we are all fallible, as he demonstrated recently in passing through on the list a classic urban myth about LSD tattoos absorbed through the skin. This myth has been debunked in many places-- as I understand it, no case of a `LSD tattoo' has ever been found, because it is physically impossible to absorb the drug in this manner. The person below was being facetious, but the paranoia over email addresses and `cyberanarchists' shows through. I cannot escape commenting on the symbolism of this message: the swing of the pendulum has been arrested, and from henceforth on, the use of the Internet for deception will be of the utmost concern of many designers and will strongly influence many new technological advancements in Cyberspace. ===cut=here=== From: rjs(a)farnsworth.mit.edu (Richard Jay Solomon) Subject: Re: Important Message to Parents Cc: bjones(a)weber.ucsd.edu, moredohrs(a)farnsworth.mit.edu, tcfgie(a)weber.ucsd.edu [LSD tattoos] This is a marvelous, if scary, example of a serious issue of information dissemination via the net. It's instantaneous, authoriative looking (because it is in print, on a *computer*, yours!), yet appears to be a personal letter often from someone who you think you know, and you have'nt a clue of whether the content or the sender is for real. And you still don't know if THIS message is a hoax, urban myth, or what. Maybe it WAS a myth, but is no longer. Suppose farber's list was penetrated, or Dave flipped his lid, or bjones(a)weber.ucsd.edu is some maniac or a fictitious name, or rjs(a)farnsworth.mit.edu is a cyber-anarchist or has been seized by one -- you simply do not know. But if you have kids, you have a teensy-weensy suspicion that this might be true and you are going to ask the first biochemist you know, aren't you -- with a smile on your face, or on your email, just in case you look foolish. Right?

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ANONYMOUS DEATH THREATS FORCE COLORADO MALLS TO YANK SANTA
by L. Detweiler 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

from the Rocky Mountain News, Denver, CO, Wed Dec 22 1993 p.4A (front page headline) ``Letters warning `Chuck E. Cheese was nothing compared to this' spur cancellation of St. Nick'' This is example of the power that can be wrought through more words, even anonymously. Apparently from no other cause than a series of anonymous letters sent to many Colorado malls, many cancelled their appearances of Santa Claus. In one mall, a Santa was surrounded by undercover police agents and others wore bulletproof vests. I have been to most of these malls and they are the largest and most prominent in the entire state. Anonymous mail carries far more weight today than graffiti sprayed on a wall! It is an extremely potent weapon, in the wrong hands! If this were a prank or hoax (various signs suggest this) it was an extremely effective and devastating one. And the ultimate goal of having it all `replayed' back in the media for perverse glee was achieved spectacularly. It was the front page headline on the Colorado newspapers. Merry Christmas, everyone... ===cut=here=== Colorado -- Death threats against Santa Claus have prompted at least several major malls to cancel their Santas, disappointing hundreds of children. Anonymous letters began arriving at malls Dec. 14. The writer threatened to shoot Santa between the eyes and ``kill more than an [sic] hundred people.'' Santas at Westminster and Northglenn malls were wearing bulletproof vests Tuesday, and armed guards were posted within 10 feet of some Santas. ``Isn't it a shame?'' Westminster Police Chief Dan Montgomery said. ``Even Santa Claus is a target.'' Monday, malls began receiving follow-up threats from the writer. Letters declared, ``Time is running out'' and ``Chuck E. Cheese was nothing compared to this.'' The writer claimed to be a Vietnam veteran angry that Santa has replaced much of the religious meaning of Christmas. The typed, identical letters were signed ``Terminator XX.'' ``I am filled with much hatred,'' they said. ``You don't know the horrible things I'm capable of.'' Police said they are taking the threats seriously. The FBI is investigating. ``What are the chances of it happening?'' Montgomery said. ``Extremely remote. But you have to act as if it's going to happen.'' The follow-up threats prompted cancellation of Santa at Southwest Plaza, Cinderella City and the NOrthglenn, Westminster, Cherry Creek, Aurora, and Southglenn malls. Officials at other malls are considering the same action. ``We felt it was in the best interests of the public,'' said Carol Hinson of Aurora Mall. Some children cried Tuesday when they showed up at Southwest Plaza and Santa wasn't there. ``This has been a nightmare,'' said manager Eileen Stembler. ``The anger it has caused is phenomenal, that someone would believe they have the right to take the fantasy out of Christmas.'' Mall workers posted signs designed to soften the blow. At Southglenn, a sign read: ``Due to the tremendous amount of gifts Santa must deliver ... Santa and his helpers have gone back to the North Pole to prepare. Please leave your Christmas wish list at the Customer Service Center and we will be sure Santa gets it.'' Most of the malls set up tables with pencil and paper so children could write their Christmas wish lists. Parents who asked about missing Santas were not informed of the threats. Some were told that Santa was sick. The threatening letters were sent to at least five malls, Westminster, Aurora, Cherry Creek, Northglenn and Southwest Plaza. They included the line: ``What a sexist thing to think Santa is a fat man who gives presents to people.'' The letters prompted dozens of metro-area Santas to quit, forcing malls to scramble for replacements. Susen Mesco, head of American Events and Promotions, said the threats prompted 25 of her company's 50 Santas to quit. They earn $6 to $40 an hour. ``Some of their wives didn't want them to work,''' Mesco said. ``It's not worth a part-time job. It just isn't.'' Those who stayed half-seriously asked for raises, Mesco said. ``I'm just trying to keep a positive attitude about this,'' said Tony Ratcliff, a 38-year-old Santa who stayed on the job. ``The authorities [have] already taken all the precautions.'' Before Santa was canceled at Southwest Plaza Tuesday, parents and children waited 45 minutes as he was moved to a sequestered room on the second floor. When Santa arrived, he was surrounded by five security guards. ``This set-up, it ruins Christmas,'' said teen-age shopper Brian Garramone. At Northglenn Mall last Tuesday night, Santa was surrounded by undercover security guards and was not allowed to leave Santa Land. Mall officials said he will not be there today. Last week, a radio communications system was installed in Santa Land so Santa and his elves could call for help, said the mall's attorney April Bennet Stone. Throughout the Denver area, people were wondering what kind of person would do this. ``This, unfortunately,'' Mesco said, ``is somebody who didn't get enough hugs as a child.''

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The Perils of Leadership
by L. Detweiler 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I thought I would share with everyone the consequences of a failure in leadership, as expressed by different followers. In a situation where there is no trust, honor, or integrity in a group, a sort of paranoia and disattachment ensues. The leaders claim they are not really leading their followers, and the followers claim they are not really following the leaders. Here is a batch of messages I got from the `followers' in response to one of my messages to the cypherpunks group. I think it demonstrates rather well the degeneration that can ensue in a group where morality takes a back seat to self-gratification and glory. It is interesting how most people below avoid the question of associating with people that might be involved in immoral activities. By default, i.e. in the lack of protest, the former continues to support the latter. That reminds me of a parable by S.Boxx, `The Zen of Cyberspace', about a corrupt king who was carried around in a massive platform on the backs of his followers, who admitted the king was corrupt but continued because, in each of their own ways, they shared one of his vices. Amazingly, all these people claim that cypherpunk leaders are not sending them mail from fake identities, apparently without the slightest evidence or assurance from the leaders, and in fact a lot of circumstantial evidence to the contrary. Also, I also find it amusing that many, right after justifying various forms of lies, in the next breath claim to be `honest cypherpunks' . Cypherwonks, I hope to serve you in a way that will avoid the disintegration seen below. Cypherpunks, I hope that you can get your act together. Or maybe what I mean is that I hope your `act' continues to fall apart. === In the following messages, the following people claim that there is no conspirational activity (e.g. pseudospoofing, etc.) going on by Cypherpunks, particularly by the leaders. They don't answer my questions on specifics -- how do they know? but perhaps others can obtain some kind of substantive, verifiable evidence either way from them. Jim Demmers <jdemmers(a)noel.pd.org> "mycal" <mike(a)NetAcsys.com> === Follower #1 > I thought I might use the honest > cypherpunks as a wedge into the leader's sense of honor, but there are > no honest cypherpunks and none of their leaders have any honor. This was the first cypherwonks message I received and... I think that this generalization is a bit strong, and as an honest cypherpunk, I take some exception to it. There are many people who either read cypherpunks (or versions of it) who are honest, and simply interested in cryptography and (potentially) the side effects of it. Please try not to be so harsh to criticize such a loosely organized group as cypherpunks; many of us have no contact or even iterest in the leadership of the organization, and are just there for the crypto. === Follower #2 (Ray Berry) >> >> if the leaders are corrupt, where does that leave the followers? >> especially if they are unaware of the corruption? I have never considered those who dominate the cypherpunk mailing list my "leaders". Have you? >> >I would not be surprised if some of their actions are calculated to >> >simply further provoke or bait you. >> >> Let me ask you a question -- do you think J.Gilmore is among the >> `vermin' you speak of? E.Hughes? T.C.May? who? Personally, I don't see any of them as vermin per se. My impres- sion of Gilmore is generally that of a moderate. Hughes and May I feel less empathy with- probably because of their seeming preoccupation with anarchic fantasies, etc. In order for them to earn 'vermin' status, they would have to conciously conspire to manipulate me on a personal level. As it is I simply see them as misguided souls. Perhaps more salient is the point that, for me, I would prefer to simply judge the content on its own merits. After all, I don't know who these people really are, or of what cloth they are cut, save for their statements. If I cannot know who they are, how can I get very invested in their particular identity, true or otherwise? === Follower #3 (Mike McNally) "L. Detweiler" writes: > False. The issue is about truth and the morality of leaders. Will you get the idea out of your little head that Hughes is my "leader"? You're the only one with any such delusion. > >This is exactly like the question "Are you a liar?", to which the > >answer is always "no". > > False. In an honest society, lies exist. You are asserting that they do not. No, idiot, the answer is always "no" because a liar would lie. Duhh. === Follower #4 > Anyway, there have been a few questions by people on this list. `why > should we care about pseudospoofing?' the answer is that you should be > sure that your leaders aren't doing it. What is it with you and this "leaders' bullshit. I don't recognize any leaders per se on this list - just a bunch of subscribers - some with more knowledge and more to say than others. This is not the giant, conspiratorial 'movement' that you so love to bang your head against. A knight in shining armor you're not. === Follower #5 > > When I hear strange rumors about deceptions in the media, and your > eminent leaders fail to reassure me, why is no one else upset about > this? Cypherpunks, don't you give a DAMN that articles by reputable > authors may contain DISTORTIONS AND LIES? Look, Markoff is a highly > respected writer. And if you lie or deceive a reporter, that is like a > personal insult. These people could get *fired* if their articles are > incorrect in a serious way. but you don't GIVE A DAMN. you think it is > FUNNY that you can TRICK REPUTABLE PEOPLE TO BELIEVE IN LIES and so you > can PROPAGATE THEM FURTHER. If thats the way you feel, why don't you get pissed off at all the officials in our government. They lie to respected writers all the time. Worse they lie to the public that has entrusted them. Writers don't get "fired" for being lied to, if the writer interviews an "expert" in a field and prints it, he has that interview to back him up. A writer may get "fired" for pissing off the government -or- a media owner. If you truely wan't to fight the tenticals of deception you should go after the mass media, just about all media outlets are tenticals of some big corporation. Even if what you were saying was true about Tim and Co (which is not), in todays world they would still be looked at as heros by the masses, even if the government and its sheeple looked at them as criminals. > > Is there an honest cypherpunk in the entire world? None have contacted > me so far. There are a few people that are slinking away quietly with > their tail between their legs, but I think you all are just the same > scurrilous cowards that your leaders are. I consider myself honest [...]

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Re: anonymous video rental store
by wcs＠anchor.ho.att.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Another technique for anonymous video rentals that's a bit more complex than buy-and-sell-back but feels more like a video store is to use deposits. Remember when video stores were just starting out and charged membership fees to join (letting them get started with minimal capital)? You could do a deposit system instead, where either - you pay the deposit when you join, equal to N times the cost of a relatively expensive videotape, and get N membership cards,; when you rent a tape, you hand them a card (they can be anonymous), and they give you a card back (pulled off a stack) when you return it. If some of their tapes are a lot more expensive, they may be two-token tapes. If you want to get your cash back, you give them the card and ask for cash. If this sounds like private money, yes it is. You could probably do it digitally, using online systems which can check whether a given number is in the bank when you try to deposit it, or getting fancier than that. or - when you rent a tape, you leave a $50 deposit per tape, and get it back when you return the tape, less $N/day. The tape and/or the plastic box it's in has their signature on it, and maybe the typical bar-code. If they want to get fancy, they can give out dated tokens/boxes with the tape, and you use the token to get the deposit back; it's probably much harder to forge a receipt that has the timestamp public-key signed by them along with the movie name, and if *they* start cheating, people start spreading rumors... Why would people other than cypherpunks, fervent civil-libertarians, undocumented non-citizens, and other professional paranoids (:-)) bother? Unless there's a run of major movie-rental-outings in the press (to make Republicans look bad so people forget about liberals not paying their housecleaners' socialist security taxes or whatever), the two most likely market drivers I can see are the porno market (Gerald Van Leun's (sp?) observation that sex is always a major influence on adoption of technology) though they'd probably have done it by now if they were going to, and perhaps the non-childrens' videogame market, especially to block heat from Janet Reno et al. for censorship and/or mandatory registration (registering all "assault videos" as a first step toward confiscation?) Using large deposits decreases the usage by children, so it may be a politically acceptable alternative. Bill ---- One of the corollary's to Godwin's Law is that many discussions will lead to someone saying "If %ss are outlawed, only outlaws will have %ss." :-)

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