December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Saw you Online!
by lep1＠bellsouth.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Take_a_look_at_my_latest_rip-off!, Does your long distance carrier give you a flat 9.9 cents per minute on your interstate long distance 24-hours-per-day 365- days per year? AND the ability to ELIMINATE your long distance phone bills thru an optional referral credits program? AND FREE teleconferencing with up to 450 other members (where each member just pays their own 10.9 cents per minute but no teleconference bridge charges)? They don't charge you anything to join, there's no hidden expenses or term contracts or catches of any kind and who couldn't use one less bill per month?! Just say the words (words=long distance) and I'll send a helpful email that will save you a lot of long distance money or even make your long distance FREE thru the optional referral credits program! Sincerely, Larry Price

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[Fwd: Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists]
by Toto 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: New rules for Internet sales to CA buyers
by Greg Broiles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:50 AM 1/4/97 -0800, Ian Goldberg wrote: >Greg Broiles <gbroiles(a)netbox.com> wrote: >>The following subsection of California Business & Professions Code section >>17538 took effect 1/1/97 and may be of interest to people following state >>attempts to regulate net sales: >> >>[...] >> (d) A vendor conducting business through the Internet or any other >>electronic means of communication shall do all of the following >>when the transaction involves a buyer located in California: >[snip] > >So is this saying that a merchant _anywhere in the world_ can be prosecuted >under California law if someone in California goes to their web page, >and the web page doesn't satisfy the requirements (which I snipped)? Yes; but since the law is a criminal statute, the presence of the defendant is required (absent the defendant's waiver) for a prosecution to occur. Securing the appearance of an out-of-state or out-of-country defendant (extradition) is an expensive and complicated process. Violation of the statute is a misdemeanor, and California is unlikely to try to extradite someone in order to try them for a misdemeanor charge. (This is an economic choice, not a legal restriction - I worked on a case when I was in Oregon where our client, at that time an Oregon resident, charged with a misdemeanor in California, managed to make the prosecutor angry enough that the various state & county agencies involved did jump through the hoops to request extradition.) >How is a merchant in, say, Finland, supposed to know that this law (or others >like it in any city, state, or country in the world) exists? By hiring an attorney, of course. :) This is a significant problem; in the past, it's been difficult enough to do business in far-away places that the only organizations likely to do so were large enough that they were able to pay people to keep track of applicable local rules. But now it's easy to advertise or do business worldwide, and it's very difficult to control which jurisdictions have access to your advertising materials. So it's likely that many people and organizations will unintentionally violate many laws in jurisdictions they're not familiar with. Hopefully the various enforcement agencies will take this into account when enforcing their laws. I wouldn't be surprised, frankly, if California never prosecutes anyone for violation of this law - it's hard to imagine that this will turn out to be an enforcement priority for anyone. It is, of course, still useful for selective enforcement, similar to laws against vagrancy or loitering or public drunkenness, where illegal behavior is usually ignored but vigilant enforcement is employed to punish or drive away people who are unpopular for an unrelated reason. If the legislators really wanted this to be enforced, they'd have given citizens a private right of action against offending web publishers. Then we'd see some excitement. C-Net's NEWS.COM has an article on the new law at <http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,6667,00.html>. -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles(a)netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. |

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Re: Timmy's Lost It: [Was Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice]
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:15 AM 1/3/97 -0800, Timothy C. May wrote: >As for my "elitism," I've never presented myself in any other fashion. I've >discussed this issue many times. Get used to it, or ignore it, or just keep >foaming at the mouth and ranting about how I need to take "yellow pills" to >avoid being an ally of "Bubba." I don't fault you for being "elitist." However, Rich Graves was right: I think that cryptoanarchy, while obviously eliminating taxation and income redistribution sounds cozy for economic elites, actually also eliminates the basis for those elites to be formed in the first place. To cite just one example that will hit close to home for you, without copyrights or patents (which are, obviously, monopolies enforced by governments) it would be far harder for companies such as Intel to maintain a near-monopoly on the DOS-compatible microprocessor market. And it has long been observed in libertarian discussion circles that far from hating regulation, most large (American; and others) corporations actually receive a net benefit from it as compared with smaller companies: The cost of complying with regulations doesn't increase linearly with the size of company, which means that those same regulations are a way of fighting competition if they are played right. Bring in crypto-anarchy and this effect is no longer operating. Despite all this, I still see nothing inconsistent in even an "elitist" pushing for crypto-anarchy: The current political system has become so dramatically inefficient and keeps so many people (through welfare, Socialist Insecurity, and government employment) well-fed through income redistribution, that I think finally even an "elitist" would be happy to chuck the whole system and adopt a crypto-anarchy-equalized system. Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

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NETWORKING ALERT!!!
by Alfred Michael Arzt 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Judge Bork on Ebonics
by azur＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The following is from pages 300-307 of Robert Bork's brilliant book, "Slouching Towards Gomorrah". This is a book which should be read by everyone--and especially by liberals. Here are Judge Bork's thoughts on multiculturalism, bilingual education, and "Black English", otherwise known as "Ebonics". ==================================================== The natural centrifugal tendencies of ethnicity were once counteracted by a public school system that stressed indoctrinating immigrants to be Americans. The schools were agents of cultural unification. They taught patriotism and standards derived from European cultures. Part of our national lore, and glory, is the fact that youngsters speaking not a word of English were placed in public schools where only English was used and very shortly were proficient in the language. That was crucial to the formation of an American identity Now, however, the educational system has become the weapon of choice for modern liberals in their project of dismantling American culture. Our egalitarians view every cul- ture (other than European) as equal. They resent and resist attempts to Americanize immigrants, and the crucial battleground is language. That is the reason for bilingual education. Initially, some well- meaning souls saw bilingual education as a way of easing the immigrant child's entry into American culture. The child would take courses in English but learn many subjects in his native tongue, usually Spanish. Within two or three years, the argument ran, the child would be able to take all of his courses in English. It is now clear, however, that the program is designed not to facilitate but to delay entry into American culture, and, to the degree possi- ble, make certain that assimilation is never complete. So many languages are spoken by immigrants that it is impos- sible to provide bilingual education for all. That is why bilingual education is so often in Spanish, the language most immigrants speak. But that fact gives away the real reason for the programs. Vietnamese and Polish children were put into English-speaking classes and were competent into English long before the Hispanics in bilingual schools. That leaves the partisans of bilingualism only the choice of saying that Hispanic children are not as capable as others or admitting that they, the educators, are driven by hostility to American culture, and the rewards to be had by teachers' unions and educational bureaucrats. The rewards would not be there, however, if ideology had not created the situation. Often, the bilingualists do not care whether immigrant chil- dren learn English. The key to success for the students is "self- esteem. . . . Children do badly in school because of their feelings of 'shame' at belonging to a minority group rather than the 'domi- nant group.' For the children to do better, teachers must "con- sciously challenge the power structure both in their classrooms and schools and in the society at large." As Richard Bernstein writes, "Bilingual education ... is an act of rebellion against white, Anglo cultural domination." And the "animus against assimilation, is not an implicit part of the emerging educational philosophy. It is explicit, open, out there, a standard belief. 'The psychological cost of assimilation has been and continues to be high for many U.S. citizens,' declares the National Council of Social Studies (NCSS), in Washington, D.C., in its 1992 'Curriculum Guidelines for Mul- ticultural Education.' "It too often demands self-denial, self-hatred, and rejection of family and ethnic ties." This pathetic whine is not insignificant since the NCSS is the country's largest Organiza- tion devoted to social studies education. Public dissatisfaction with the linguistic fracturing of society has led to calls for an English-only amendment to the Constitu- tion. The frustration is understandable, but there is no need to amend the Constitution to achieve an English-speaking nation. All that need be done is the abolition of bilingual education and the repeal of the Voting Rights Act's requirement of different language ballots. Children from other countries will learn English in public schools as they used to do. Their parents will accept the change once they begin to see its results. Immigrant parents want their children to learn English and become Americans. The opposition to that, manifested in bilingual education, comes from American elites who form an adversarial culture, alienated from the culture of the West and wishing to weaken it. In 1989, the Commissioners Task Force on Minorities in New York concluded: "African Americans, Asian Americans, Puerto kicans/Latinos, and Native Americans have all been the victims of an intellectual and educational oppression that has characterized the culture and institutions of the United States and the European American world for centuries." All young people were being "miseducated" because of a "systematic bias toward European cul- ture and its derivatives." Bernstein asks, rhetorically, "Could the multicultural animus against 'European culture and its derivatives' emerge more clearly than that? Here we have a direct statement that the Western culture is harmful to nonwhite children ." Despite the evidence and the frankness of its advocates, most people, including very astute people, tend to accept the beneficent view of multiculturalism put forth by its less candid partisans. Thus, one can find diametrically opposed views of the phe- nomenon, one put forward, for example, by Richard Bernstein and another articulated by Conor Cruise O'Brien. Bernstein writes, "Multiculturalism is a movement of the left, emerging from the counterculture of the 1960's... It is a code word for a politi cal ambition, a yearning for more power, combined with a gen- uine, earnest, zealous, self-righteous craving for social improve- ment. . . ." He says we are "likely to end up in a simmering sort of mutual dislike on the level of everyday unpleasantness..." O'Brien, on the other hand, thinks that multiculturalism and diversity are "actually both a mask for, and perhaps an unconscious mode for achieving, a unity which would be broader-based and to that extent stronger. . . . The real agenda is the enlargement of the American national elite to include groups of persons who have traditionally been excluded from the same, mainly for reasons associated with race and gender. What is in view is the enlarge- ment and diversification of the composition of the future govern- ing class of the United States of America." I am afraid it is clear that Bernstein has it right and O'Brien has it wrong. Multiculturalism is advertised by its less candid prac- titioners as opening students to the perspectives and accomplish- ments of groups that have been largely ignored and undervalued in conventional curriculums. The goal, it is said, is to enrich the student's understanding of the world and to teach him respect for and tolerance of others who are different. It substitutes an ethic of inclusion for the older ethic of exclusion. This is the movement's self-portrait, and O'Brien seems to have accepted it at face value. If there were truth in that advertising, if that were what the goal really is, no one could legitimately object to what is taking place in the American educational system. Unfortunately, there appears to be very little truth in the pretensions of the multiculturalists. Bernstein took a two-year leave of absence from the New York Times to gather the facts of the multicultural ideology and its opponents. His is not an impressionistic book or one based on an ideological predisposition; it is a report of empirical findings. He points, for example, to the remarkable change in attitude towards Christopher Columbus between 1892 and 1992. Though not a single new fact about Columbus's life and exploits had been uncovered, the country's mood swung from one of uncritical adu- lation to one of loathing and condemnation, at least among the members of the "intellectual" class. The change was accomplished by the aggressive ideology of multiculturalism. The Columbus turnaround is merely a specific instance of more general alter- ations in our moral landscape. What it signifies, and what becomes increasingly obvious, is that multiculturalism is a philosophy of antagonism to America and the West. The hostility of the multiculturalists to this nation and its achievements can hardly be overstated. Lynne Cheney, the former head of the National Endowment for the Humanities, quotes a professor who is pleased that multiculturalism has the "potential for ideologically disuniting the nation" by stressing America's faults so that students will not think this country deserves their special support. That multiculturalism is essentially an attack on America, the European-American culture, and the white race, with special emphasis on white males, may be seen from the curriculum it favors. A curriculum designed to foster understanding of other cultures would study those cultures. Multiculturalism does not. Courses are not offered on the cultures of China or India or Brazil or Nigeria, nor does the curriculum require the study of languages without which foreign cultures cannot be fully understood. Instead the focus is on groups that, allegedly, have been subjected to oppression by American and Western civilization--homosexu- als, American Indians, blacks, Hispanics, women, and so on. The message is not that all cultures are to be respected but that Euro- pean culture, which created the dominance of white males, is uniquely evil. Multiculturalism follows the agenda of modern lib- eralism, and it comes straight from the Sixties counterculture. But now, in American education, it is the dominant culture. Bernstein catalogues the basic changes multiculturalism has made in the nature of public discourse. "First is the elimination from acceptable discourse of any claim of superiority or even special status for Europe, or any definition of the United States as derived primarily from European civilization. "Second is the attack on the very notion of the individual and the concomitant paramount status accorded group identifi- cation. "Third is the triumph of the politics of difference over the politics of equality, that great and still-visionary goal of the civil rights movement. Multiculturalism here is the indictment of one group and the exculpation of all the others. . . "This obsession with the themes of cultural domination and oppression [by whites] justifies one of the most important departures from the principal and essential goal of the civil rights movement, equality of opportunity. Multiculturalism insists on equality of results." Hence it is that multiculturalists have turned Martin Luther King, Jr.'s dream into a nightmare. He asked that his children "not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character," which, as Bernstein says, is the "essential ideal of liberal- ism:' But multiculturalists say, "Judge me by the color of my skin for therein lies my identity and my place in the world." Multiculturalism requires the quotas or affirmative action that create group dislike of other groups and self-segregation. There is no other way to ensure that each valued ethnic group is repre- sented in the student body and on the faculty. Of late, educators have begun to speak of diversity instead of multiculturalism, but it is the same thing. University presidents and faculties, secondary and primary school principals and teachers, all chant the diversity mantra. So powerful has this harmful notion become that it not only dictates who is admitted to a school but sometimes deter- mines who may leave. Students of Asian ancestry, for example, have tried to transfer to public schools whose curriculum was better suited to their ambitions but been denied the transfer on the grounds that their departure would lessen diversity. One father complained that his adopted Korean daughter could contribute no non-western per- spective to the school she sought to leave because she had been brought to this country at the age of five months. No matter; she was of the requisite racial group. When the controversy was reported in the newspapers, she was allowed to transfer. But the episode demonstrates that the multiculturalists are sometimes will- ing to force a person into a cultural identity that person does not have on the grounds of ancestry alone. The quality of education must necessarily decline as students turn from substantive subjects to ideologically driven resentments, in the case of non-whites, or guilt, in the case of whites. Although white students are often required to study America's "oppressed" subcultures and their allegedly superior qualities, it is regarded as racist to require that non-whites study Western culture. That was the meaning of the radicals' attack on Stanford's Western Culture program in which students were required to sample the writings of men who had helped shape Western culture-Shakespeare, Dante, Locke, etc. A black student who objected to the program said its message was "Nigger, go home." That exclusionary inter- pretation is precisely the opposite of the real message of the pro- gram, which was "Let us study what we have in common as inheritors of a tradition." The black student's objection follows from the perverse teaching of multiculturalism that those who have been "traditionally excluded" must now reject inclusion. This has the odd effect of damaging all groups. The insistence on separate ethnic identities means that persons in each group can study their own culture, often in highly flattering and historically inaccurate form. Multiculturalism then means not the study of others but of oneself. The student who immerses himself in multi- cultural studies, who lives in a dormitory where admission is defined by ethnicity, who socializes only with members of his eth- nic group, does not acquire the knowledge and discipline that he might have and does not learn how to deal comfortably with those of other ethnicities. One of the ways in which cultures improve is by borrowing from other cultures. Europe borrowed important aspects of mathematics, for example, from the Arab world. But the essence of multiculturalism is the isolation of groups so that they do not borrow from one another. The result is the relative cultural impoverishment of all groups. In education at all levels, the substance of the curriculum changes to accommodate multiculturalist pressures. We have already seen this in feminist and Afrocentric studies, but it is everywhere. In New York state it is official educational doctrine that the United States Constitution was heavily influenced by the political arrangements of the Iroquois Confederacy. The official promulgation of this idea was not due to any research that dis- closed its truth. Nor has any other state adopted this nonsensical idea. New York adopted it because the Iroquois mounted an intensive lobbying campaign directed at the State Department of Education. Far from this being a beneficial borrowing from another culture, it was a detrimental forcing of a false notion by one culture on another. John Leo notes that the decision "shows that some school authorities, eager to avoid minority group pres sure and rage, are now willing to treat the curriculum as a prize in an ethnic spoils system." That it is ideologcally driven by guilt and not an attempt to pacify a large bloc of voters is clear from the fact that there are only a little more than 38,000 Indians in New York state, most of whom probably have no interest in the myth of the Iroquois and the Constitution. This sort of thing is happening across the country as various ethnic groups and feminists demand that history be rewritten according to their party lines. This not only debases history but pits the various groups against one another as they struggle for space in the textbooks. New York's "interest in history is not as an intellectual discipline," Schlesinger writes, "but rather as social and psychological therapy whose primary purpose is to raise the self- esteem of children from minority groups." Those who have traditionally been excluded because of race or gender are not helped by multiculturalists who teach them that European culture and standards are the cause of their difficulties and may be jettisoned, that history has no content aside from its ideological usefulness, that there are different ways of knowing, that linear thinking is a white male stratagem to oppress those who are not white or male, that standard English is no better than a variety of dialects such as "black English." To the extent the tra- ditionally excluded believe any of this, they are additionally handi- capped in life, and further excluded. To the extent they are taught that self-esteem comes before achievement and leads to achieve- ment, they are lied to and held back. --end

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Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
by Greg Broiles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 01:10 PM 1/3/97 GMT, Adam Back wrote: >The only thing I would be happy to see happen in the way of list based >filtering, is anything to cut out pure commercial, non crypto related >spam. Spammers seem to have discovered mailing lists as efficient >distribution methods in addition to direct mass mailing lately. Some evildoer has been posting messages to Usenet purporting to be from "cypherpunks(a)toad.com"; some of the messages posted have been to newsgroups frequented by the make-spam-fast crowd, so now we've apparently been identified as within an especially gullible market segment. The messages sent to Usenet are labelled "SPAM BAIT" (or something like that) - apparently the sender of the messages thinks they're doing something useful. >Unfortunately this is difficult to filter automatically, and no one >has the time to do it in close to real time, and time lags hinder >discussion. For me, real time access to Cypherpunks is unproductive; I find that I get the most value out of the list if I read my accumulated messages once every day or two instead of once an hour. Also, at a "macro" perspective, too much feedback can be as harmful or inefficient as too little feedback. I think that a "3 posts per person per day" rule might produce interesting results; at least from my perspective, people who send many messages (> 5, or so) per day usually don't have anything of substance to say and I frequently skip all of their posts. It would also encourage people to avoid the "Me, too" or "I think you're an idiot" messages which can just as easily be sent privately or not at all. Implementing such a rule would be disproportionately burdensome technically and politically, so I'm not seriously suggesting that we implement it, but I do think it's useful to think of "fewer, better" posts as a goal. -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles(a)netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. |

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eJournal
by GroupWeb eJournal 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Will off-topic libertarian bullshit be allowed on the moderated mailing list?
by ichudov＠algebra.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hello, For a long time, cypherpunks mailing list has been plagued by two types of irrelevant traffic: 1) Flames by Vulis against cypherpunks and by cypherpunks against Vulis. 2) Off-topic rants about libertarian ideology, guns, poverty, Ebonics, etc etc. Both types of messages were equally damaging to the content that I consider worth reading: discussions about applications of cryptography, protocols and crypto-related code. As a result, most of the people who used to talk about cryptosystems do not do so anymore because they moved to other, less noisy, forums. It was very sad to see that nobody except Eric Murray wanted to seriously try to discuss IPG algorithm, which was in my opinion an excellent case study of a home-grown cryptosystem. Eric wrote lots of excellent C code to check the "random" number generator, but no one else was interested. Cypherpunks's uniqueness and appeal is not in the breadth of issues discussed: there are forums dedicated to libertarian issues, guns, languages, terrorism, and so on. The mission of this forum, as I understand it, was to provide amateurs with interest in applying cryptography, and professional cryptographers alike, a good place to discuss crypto-related issues productively. It is understandable that many of those people who subscribe to cypherpunks' credo of digital freedom happen to be devoted libertarians and have strong views on other political subjects. It does not justify bringing every important issue to this mailing list, however. If restrictions on content are to be imposed, it is not only fair but also rational to exclude off-topic political rants as well as flames. Both of these categories add zero value to accomplishing Cypherpunks' mission. - Igor. Appendix: what we all received when we subscribed: Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more of it. Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of beneficence. Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and couriers. Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from speaking about their experiences or their opinions. The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy. But to encrypt with weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy. Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best to defend it. Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography. Cypherpunks wish to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of it. Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social structures. Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to defend it. Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good cryptosystems. Cypherpunks love to practice. They love to play with public key cryptography. They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail forwarding and delivery. They love to play with DC-nets. They love to play with secure communications of all kinds. Cypherpunks write code. They know that someone has to write code to defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write it. Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks may practice and play with it. Cypherpunks realize that security is not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress. Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed. Cypherpunks know that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down. Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy. [Last updated Mon Feb 21 13:18:25 1994]

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Make $300 a Day!!
by Peter Sorensen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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The Problems are Gay
by aga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Most of the time, the problems are Gay... On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > >From csm-tkt(a)support.psi.com Thu Jan 2 15:36:04 1997 > Received: by bwalk.dm.com (1.65/waf) > via UUCP; Thu, 02 Jan 97 16:36:55 EST > for system > Received: from support.psi.com by uu.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.061193-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP; > id AA06690 for postmaster; Thu, 2 Jan 97 15:36:04 -0500 > Received: by support.psi.com (8.6.12/PSI) > id PAA23158; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:36:02 -0500 > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:36:02 -0500 > Message-Id: <199701022036.PAA23158(a)support.psi.com> > From: Customer Support Mgmt Tickets <csm-tkt(a)support.psi.com> > To: postmaster(a)dm.com > Cc: abuse(a)psi.com > Subject: csm-00974 (ticket update) dns-77660 (ticket update) Can you help? > > Ticket #csm-00974 01/02/97-15:35:37 mikea SUBJECT: dns-77660 (ticket update) Can you help? > Posted by: Michael Abelson > ---------- > > > This is to inform you that we have received complaints > about traffic apparently originating in your domain. These > messages are unwelcome intrusions that violate unwritten rules > of the Internet, and are strongly resented. Please confirm > that you are aware of these complaints and are taking measures > to stop this practice. I have attached a portion of a complaint > for your information. > > Thanks for your help on this issue. > > Sincerely, > > PSINet Customer Support > > > > >I had lunch with Gilmore once. He slurps rather disgustingly when he eats. > >I suppose he slurps the same way when he sucks big dicks in San Francisco. > > > > >Much of the time on the Internet, when some asshole pulls plugs and tries to > >silence dissent, he turns out to be Gay. In particular, King John Lack-Clue ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I rest my case. > >Gilmore, the Supreme and Absolute 12" Ruler of the "cypher punks", is an > >effeminate, limp-wristed, self-admitted and -exposed cocksucking bitch. > > > > >

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Re: Judge Bork on Ebonics
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 6:37 PM 1/4/1997, Steve Schear wrote: >The following is from pages 300-307 of Robert Bork's brilliant >book, "Slouching Towards Gomorrah". This is a book which should >be read by everyone--and especially by liberals. > >Here are Judge Bork's thoughts on multiculturalism, bilingual >education, and "Black English", otherwise known as "Ebonics". Thank you for taking the trouble to type in Bork's thoughts. You might enjoy reading the introduction to his book on antitrust law. He eloquently demonstrates how antitrust law is designed and implemented to undermine the rule of law. The participants are fully aware of their actions and Bork documents it. Nonetheless, I have some disagreements with Judge Bork. I believe he is too eager to lump "multi-culturalists" and "revisionists" into one coherent mass. He also seems to ignore the many substantive and interesting points raised by the revisionists. >Bernstein took a two-year leave of absence from the New York >Times to gather the facts of the multicultural ideology and its >opponents. His is not an impressionistic book or one based on an >ideological predisposition; it is a report of empirical findings. He >points, for example, to the remarkable change in attitude towards >Christopher Columbus between 1892 and 1992. Though not a >single new fact about Columbus's life and exploits had been >uncovered, the country's mood swung from one of uncritical adu- >lation to one of loathing and condemnation, at least among the >members of the "intellectual" class. The change was accomplished >by the aggressive ideology of multiculturalism. The Columbus >turnaround is merely a specific instance of more general alter- >ations in our moral landscape. If it is the case that no new facts are known about Columbus, which probably isn't true anyway, then we have to seriously question what people were thinking in 1892. See "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" by James W. Loewen for a full treatment. The summary: Columbus was a bad man who lead the Spanish government in causing the deaths of about 8 million people. How can we rever such a monster? Why did people in 1892 do so? Less dramatically, Columbus's visionary belief in a round world was not as visionary as claimed. Many people were aware of this fact at the time. There are many similar examples of mythmaking. What has changed since 1892 is intellectual integrity and it has changed for the better. Of course, in 1892 the United States was just completing one of the most successful land grabs in history. One can either concede a strong belief in the right of conquest or one can lie about it. In 1892 they lied about it. >That was the meaning of the radicals' attack on Stanford's Western >Culture program in which students were required to sample the >writings of men who had helped shape Western culture-Shakespeare, >Dante, Locke, etc. A black student who objected to the program said >its message was "Nigger, go home." If Universities were run like businesses serving customers, this question would not even have to be raised. Students may study whatever they are willing to pay for. >That exclusionary inter- pretation is precisely the opposite of the >real message of the pro- gram, which was "Let us study what we have >in common as inheritors of a tradition." This I disagree with. There is nothing magical about promoting "tradition". I much prefer to study the most worthwhile literature and philosophical ideas available regardless of their source. While Shakespeare is certainly worth studying, Sun Tzu is at least as worthwhile, depending on one's goals. >The insistence on separate ethnic identities means that persons in >each group can study their own culture, often in highly flattering >and historically inaccurate form. But this is exactly what the Universities and other "educational" institutions in the United States have been doing for years. >Multiculturalism then means not the study of others but of oneself. This is simply false. When people argue about the curriculum at Stanford University, they are arguing about the education of a group composed primarily of young wealthy European-Americans. >In education at all levels, the substance of the curriculum >changes to accommodate multiculturalist pressures. We have >already seen this in feminist and Afrocentric studies, but it is >everywhere. In New York state it is official educational doctrine >that the United States Constitution was heavily influenced by the >political arrangements of the Iroquois Confederacy. The official >promulgation of this idea was not due to any research that dis- >closed its truth. Nor has any other state adopted this nonsensical >idea. I am very skeptical of Bork's claim. For example, the method of admitting states to the Union and granting them nearly equal status with the existing states does not, I believe, have precedent in European history. However, this is how the Five Nation Iroquois functioned. At first glance, it seems reasonable to suggest that the authors of the Constitution got this idea from the Iroquois. If anybody knows otherwise, I would be most interested to hear about it. "Lies My Teacher Told Me" had this fascinating passage on page 103: "In the 1740s the Iroquois wearied of dealing with several often bickering English colonies and suggested that the colonies form a union similar to the league [i.e., the Iroquois -ed.]. In 1754 Benjamin Franklin, who had spent much time among the Iroquois observing their deliberations, pleaded with colonial leaders to consider the Albany Plan of Union: "It would be a strange thing if six nations of ignorant savages should be capable of forming a scheme for such a union and be able to execute it in such a manner as that it has subsisted ages and appears insoluble; and yet that a like union should be impracticable for ten or a dozen English colonies.'" Consider this excerpt from page 104: "For a hundred years after our Revolution, Americans credited Native Americans as a source of their democratic institutions. Revolutionary-era cartoonists used images of Indians to represent the colonies against Britain. Virginia's patriot rifle companies wore Indian clothes and moccasins as they fought the redcoats. When colonists took action to oppose unjust authority, as in the Boston Tea Party or the anti-rent protests against Dutch plantations in the Hudson River Valley during the 1840s, they chose to dress as Indians, not to blame Indians for the demonstrations but to appropriate a symbol identified with liberty." Or consider this, also from page 104: "As a symbol of the new United States, Americans chose the eagle clutching a bundle of arrows. They knew that both the eagle and the arrows were symbols of the Iroquois League. Although one arrow is easily broken, no one can break six (or thirteen) at once." The truth is, many revisionists have many interesting things to say. Disturbingly, I have noticed that the anti-revisionists have a marked tendency towards ad hominem attack and seldom address the specific points raised. My belief is that many established historians see themselves as promoting a "tradition" and not as searchers for truth. I would like to hear opposing points of view if backed up by evidence. (Lowewen, for instance, has some squirrelly values and there are a number of errors in his book.) >This sort of thing is happening across the country as various ethnic >groups and feminists demand that history be rewritten according to >their party lines. This not only debases history but pits the various >groups against one another as they struggle for space in the >textbooks. New York's "interest in history is not as an intellectual >discipline," Schlesinger writes, "but rather as social and >psychological therapy whose primary purpose is to raise the self- >esteem of children from minority groups." Loewen claims that Schlesinger wrote an entire book on the Jackson administration in which he omitted any reference to the forcible relocation of the Cherokees from Georgia to Oklahoma. Regardless of whether one cares about such crimes - and one should - this episode is worth studying for its Constitutional implications alone. The Cherokees had a treaty with the United States Government. They took their case to the Supreme Court. Chief Justice of the United States John Marshall ordered that the Cherokees be left alone. Andrew Jackson replied "I'd like to see John Marshall stop me." Jackson, a former general, was presumably popular with the Army. I haven't verified Loewen's claim, but I have read an essay by Schlesinger in which he attacks historical revisionism without actually addressing any claim by the revisionists. Red Rackham

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(Your Comment Here)
by Toto 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"Before I joined CypherPunks, I couldn't even 'spell' cocksucker. Now,...(Your Comment Here)."

7 6

Flame Free Bulk E-mail
by Flame Free 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Send 10,000 E-mails E v e r y D a y ... with YOUR Sales Message! These E-mail messages are ONLY sent to people who have REQUESTED info like yours. Don't Risk Getting Kicked Off Your ISP for Sending Too Many E-mails or Getting Flames! Never Chap Your ISP Again. Never Get Another Flame Message! No Flame messages will ever get to YOU again ... For details goto http://www.nettech-resources.com/flamefree.htm

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Oakland School Board modifies Ebonics decision
by nobody＠replay.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Oakland, CA, Reuters -- Oakland School Board modifies Ebonics decision. On Saturday, the Oakland School Board, meeting in emergency session, voted to modify its controversial "Ebonics" program, which authorized Ebonics, or "black English," as a second language for the purposes of teaching minority children and for receiving federal funds for language programs. But the program became the laughingstock of the nation, as critics pointed out, and the White House was quick to announce that no funding for Ebonics programs will be forthcoming. As President Clinton noted, "Hell, down in Arkansas we got folks talkin' like that everyday, and we don't call it "bubbonics, " now do we?" Under pressure from the parents of the remaining white children, the Oakland School Board has decided to add "white English," also known as "Albonics," to the list of special languages. Under the proposal, Albonics would be a valid language for teaching white children who are lacking ghetto jive skills. As School Superintendent Lavondala Rasheed-Washington explained, "Yez be all we be sayin', know? Da honkies be sayin' ebonics be dissin' dem. We'z be skaggin' and deyz be tootin' an shit. Dis be bad." (A translation into Albonics was not available at press time.) In related news, the Oakland School Board has completed work begun over the Christmas school break to subtitle all school signs in Ebonics. The "Boys" and "Girls" restrooms in all Oakland schools are now subtitled "Niggaz" and "Bitches."

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Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 10:57 PM 1/4/97 -0800, Toto wrote: >Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > >> I used to be at 212-666-6984 for some 7 years. > > Aha! You figured it out, too, huh?!? Take the word "devil," remove the vowels and you get dvl. Rearrange slightly, and it's "dlv." Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

4 4

Returned mail: Mailbox full, Please try later. (fwd)
by ArkanoiD 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Good news ;) Forwarded message: > From MAILER-DAEMON(a)paranoid.convey.ru Sun Jan 5 20:18:11 1997 > Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:17:36 -0800 (PST) > From: Mailer-Daemon(a)ix.netcom.com (Mail Delivery Subsystem) > Subject: Returned mail: Mailbox full, Please try later. > Message-Id: <199701051717.JAA15268(a)ixmail5.ix.netcom.com> > To: <ark(a)paranoid.convey.ru> > Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) > > The original message was received at Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:17:21 -0800 (PST) > from paranoid.convey.ru [195.212.156.196] > > ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications ----- > <jguarnie(a)ix7.ix.netcom.com> (unrecoverable error) > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- > 554 <jguarnie(a)ix7.ix.netcom.com>... Mailbox full, Please try later. > > ----- Original message follows ----- > > Return-Path: <ark(a)paranoid.convey.ru> > Received: from paranoid.convey.ru (paranoid.convey.ru [195.212.156.196]) by ixmail5.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom) > id JAA15229; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 09:17:21 -0800 (PST) > Received: (from ark@localhost) by paranoid.convey.ru (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA25246 for jguarnie(a)ix7.ix.netcom.com; Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:16:24 +0300 > From: ArkanoiD <ark(a)paranoid.convey.ru> > Message-Id: <199701051716.UAA25246(a)paranoid.convey.ru> > Subject: Re: Thermojetic Herbal BreakThrough!!! > To: jguarnie(a)ix.netcom.com > Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 20:16:22 +0300 (MSK) > In-Reply-To: <199612292025.MAA28652(a)dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> from "jguarnie(a)ix7.ix.netcom.com" at Dec 29, 96 03:31:24 pm > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Fuck off with your shit. > > > > > ******SORRY FOR THE INTRUSION THIS IS A ONE TIME MESSAGE***** > > ********YOU WILL NOT BE CONTACTED AGAIN******** > > > > !!!!!!!!!! THERMOJETICS HERBAL BREAKTHROUGH !!!!!!!!!! > > [skip..] -- _ _ _ _ _ _ _ {::} {::} {::} CU in Hell _| o |_ | | _|| | / _||_| |_ |_ |_ (##) (##) (##) /Arkan#iD |_ o _||_| _||_| / _| | o |_||_||_| [||] [||] [||] Do i believe in Bible? Hell,man,i've seen one!

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No Subject
by Bovine Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Timothy C[retin] May was born when his mother was on the toilet. ____ \ _/__ Timothy C[retin] May \\ / \/

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Re: (Your Comment Here)
by Lucky Green 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 07:41 AM 1/5/97 +0000, attila wrote: > you know, I've always given Tim a little slack on his occasionally > over-biased opinions, but... maybe Tim is the problem; he just seems > to bring out the 'best' in people like Dimitri and now the list has > turned into a free-for-all of the outrageously obscene. You got to be kidding. Tim is not the problem on this list. As any long time reader of this list surely knows, I do not always agree with Tim. But it is Tim who writes the well thought out essays, and it are Vulis and Aga who post day after day that "John Gilmore is a cock sucking faggot", "Queers must be banned from the Internet" and "Timmy is a convicted child molester that likes to fuck little children up the ass". Let's be clear about this: Tim May is a major asset to this list. Vulis and Aga are slime. [Note, I am unlikely to read any replies to this post since I filter on Vulis and similar vermin in the headers _and_ body text.] -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm

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Re: ONE MILLION CHILDREN.....
by jim bell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 10:26 AM 1/5/97 -0800, Dale Thorn wrote: >jim bell wrote: >> At 10:57 PM 1/4/97 -0800, Toto wrote: >> >Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >> >> I used to be at 212-666-6984 for some 7 years. > >> > Aha! > >> You figured it out, too, huh?!? Take the word "devil," remove the >> vowels and you get dvl. Rearrange slightly, and it's "dlv." > >I can't resist this any longer. Pity the poor slobs who have me >in the filter. > >1. Dale Thorn is very similar to Damien Thorn. >2. The Roman numerals in my name add up to 555. For a 'C' programmer, > this can be the equivalent of 666 for a Basic programmer, taking > one digit at a time. >3. If you sign (with a pen) the name quickly, using counterclockwise > loops only, it will look exactly like 666, which BTW was a significant > paragraph in a lawsuit between myself and a former employer (they > initiated the paragraph). The devil you say! Jim Bell jimbell(a)pacifier.com

2 1

EAR Amendments
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

We have revised the hypertext EAR to include amendments of the four succeeding revisions: License Exceptions, December 4, 1996, which amends Parts 732, 736, 740, 742, 744, 746, 748, 750, 752, 758, and 770. Licensing of Key Escrow, December 13, 1996, which amends Parts 734, 740, 742, 762 and 774. Computer Revisions, December 23, 1996, which amends Parts 740, 770, and 774. And the latest: Encryption Transferred From the USML to the CCL, December 30, 1996, which amends Parts 730, 732, 734, 736, 738, 740, 742, 744, 748, 750, 768, 772, and 774. ----- At the same URL: http://jya.com/eartoc.htm

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Re: The Problems are Gay
by Casey Iverson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 06:20 AM 1/5/97 -0500, you wrote: >Most of the time, the problems are Gay... > >I rest my case. > The arrogant, clueless, ignorant, homophobic Vulis tentacle has no idea what the problem is.

3 2

Sandy and I will run a cypherpunks "moderation" experiment in Jan
by John Gilmore 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I agree with Sandy Sandfort and many others that things have gotten way out of hand on the list. He and I feel that the only proposed solutions likely to succeed involve inserting human judgement in the cypherpunks posting process, rather than mere automation. So I am supporting this experiment, primarily by setting up a few more mailing lists on Toad and by automatically moving the current set of subscribers to the moderated list. You will be able to move yourselves back to the unedited list if you don't want to participate in the experiment, or if, partway through, you decide you don't like the results. Sandy will be gone til Tuesday evening, so don't expect further answers from him (or many from me, I'm swamped with other activities) until then. Meanwhile I'm interested in your discussion (on the list) of the idea. We'll modify it before starting, with good ideas from you. John Gilmore ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, Like many of you, I have become very disenchanted with the quality of discourse on this list. As others have pointed out, I believe a great deal of the blame can be laid on the lack of civility between list (and non-list) members. I think this, in turn, is the result of the list being open. As such, it has no feedback mechanisms to discourage gratuitous insults and personal attacks. The result has been an escalation of such behavior--something that no amount of personal mail filtering can rectify. Recently, I made a couple of rough proposals to John Gilmore to see if there was some way to reverse this trend. We have gone back and forth on several issues, but we finally reached an agreement whereby I would partially moderate the Cypherpunk list for a one-month test period. If the consensus of list members is that the test is going well, it can be extended. If members think it sucks, it can be dropped or modified. Even before we start, though, you may wish to contribute suggestions. The following is our general plan. I'm sure there will be questions that have to be answered as they arise, but the basis outline is a follows: 1) The test will run from January 11 through February 12. 2) I will review all incoming messages for purposes of preserving decorum and reducing obviously unrelated spam. Other then that, I will not overly concern myself with off-topic posts. I will, however, expurgate all posts containing flames, insults and other irrelevant personal attacks, as well as spams, before forwarding the remaining posts to the Cypherpunk list. 3) Cypherpunks who wish to read all posts to the list may do so by taking advantage of either of two optional lists. The first (cypherpunk-flames(a)toad.com) will consist solely of messages expurgated from the main Cypherpunks list. (Those who subscribe to "flames" will be able to easily monitor my moderating decisions.) The second (cypherpunks-unedited(a)toad.com) will contain all posts sent to Cypherpunks. It will be the equivalent of the current open, unmoderated list. It will appeal to those who don't want list moderation. 4) During the test month, polite discussion of the test will always be on topic. In the last few days before the 10th of February, I will call for opinions as to whether moderation should be continued, modified or eliminated. John has agreed to abide by the consensus of the group with one proviso. Because of the large volume of bandwidth eaten by the lists, he does not want to maintain both the "flame" and "unedited" versions of the list. If list members decide to continue to have the list moderated, one of those lists will probably have to go. 5) If list members decide on a moderated list, I will be happy to assist in the ongoing process. Though I will continue to be available for duty as moderator from time to time, we will need a set of rotating volunteers to take turns acting as moderator. Volunteers are always welcome. 6) Because every message submitted to Cypherpunk will be posted to two of the three sister lists, I don't intend to lose much sleep over whether or not this or that moderating decision was perfect. I will do the best job I can, within the constraints listed here. If I err, it isn't fatal. Everyone who wants one will have two Cypherpunk venues for their posts. Sounds fair enough to me. What do you think? S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ PS: The new lists aren't set up yet, so there's no point in trying to subscribe or unsubscribe to them yet. We'll let you know when they are working. -- John

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Re: Judge Bork on Ebonics
by azur＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Rich, Thanks for your passionate and intelligent response. Before I attempt to address some of your objections to the passages Mr. Bork's book, let me say that while I agree with some of his observations I find his objections and perscriptions (including a legislative check on Supreme Court decisions) too little too late. BTW, the lead in and Bork material was taken from an article on alt.libertian (i.e., not my words or sentiment). >From the book's liner notes: The root of our decline, Bork argues, is the rise of modern liberalism, which stresses the dual forces of radical egalitarianism (the equality of outcomes rather than opportunities) and radical individualism (the drastic reduction of the limits of personal gratification). The roots of modern liberalism are deeply embedded in the past two and a half centuries-and perhaps-arise from the very nature of Western civilization itself. [snip] >> Vietnamese and Polish children were put into English-speaking >> classes and were competent into English long before the Hispanics >> in bilingual schools. > >No evidence for this assertion exists. See, generally, "The Failure of Bilingual Education," ed. Jorge Amselle (Washington, D.C.: Center for Equal Opportunities, 1996). > >> That leaves the partisans of bilingualism only >> the choice of saying that Hispanic children are not as capable as >> others or admitting that they, the educators, are driven by hostility >> to American culture, and the rewards to be had by teachers' unions >> and educational bureaucrats. > >No. I choose to call you on the bullshit assertion that Hispanic >children don't learn English. This prejudice is rooted in the small >but visible segment of the Hispanic population that comprises recent >immigrants. It is indubitably true that illegal immigrants doing odd >jobs and domestic work -- the segment of the Hispanic population most >visible to sensitive anglos -- tend not to speak English. >Extrapolations from this population, though, are invalid. > >> Often, the bilingualists do not care whether immigrant chil- >> dren learn English. The key to success for the students is "self- >> esteem. . . . Children do badly in school because of their feelings >> of 'shame' at belonging to a minority group rather than the 'domi- >> nant group.' For the children to do better, teachers must "con- >> sciously challenge the power structure both in their classrooms >> and schools and in the society at large." As Richard Bernstein >> writes, "Bilingual education ... is an act of rebellion against white, >> Anglo cultural domination." > >Note the only evidence offered by Bork to bolster this straw man >he's building is a similar slew of bald, unsupported assertions by a >friend of his. He might as well be quoting himself. See Richard Berstein, "Dictatorship of the Virtue: Multiculturalism and the Battle for America's Future," (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1994), p. 244. The interior quotation is from Jim Cummins, "Empowering Minority Students," California Association for Bilingual Education, Sacramento, 1989, p. ix. [snip] > >> Public dissatisfaction with the linguistic fracturing of society >> has led to calls for an English-only amendment to the Constitu- >> tion. The frustration is understandable, but there is no need to >> amend the Constitution to achieve an English-speaking nation. All >> that need be done is the abolition of bilingual education and the >> repeal of the Voting Rights Act's requirement of different language >> ballots. > >You'd better hurry, too, so that you can disenfranchise people before >they know about it. > >> once they begin to see its results. Immigrant parents want their >> children to learn English and become Americans. The opposition >> to that, manifested in bilingual education, comes from American >> elites who form an adversarial culture, alienated from the culture >> of the West and wishing to weaken it. > >Who are these "American elites"? Who's in on the conspiracy? What's >in it for them? Ah, a very good question, and one which Bork spends a considerable time upon. In the short, they are the radicals of the '60s who have taken over or heavily modified the cultural institutions they once sought to destroy (e.g., Clinton, many intellectuals, the media (esp. Hollywood), university faculties, etc.). Special attention is given the Supreme Court (although obviously they are older than the '60s radicals) and its misguided and, in his opinion, unconstitutional basis supporting many liberal decisions (e.g., abortion and affirmative action) in the past 20 or so years. > >> In 1989, the Commissioners Task Force on Minorities in New >> York concluded: "African Americans, Asian Americans, Puerto >> kicans/Latinos, and Native Americans have all been the victims of >> an intellectual and educational oppression that has characterized >> the culture and institutions of the United States and the European >> American world for centuries." All young people were being >> "miseducated" because of a "systematic bias toward European cul- >> ture and its derivatives." Bernstein asks, rhetorically, "Could the >> multicultural animus against 'European culture and its derivatives' >> emerge more clearly than that? Here we have a direct statement >> that the Western culture is harmful to nonwhite children ." > >The interesting thing about this attack is that you need to accept >the Task Force's mode of analysis in order to accept Bernstein's >conclusion. What if you don't? What if you say that this "European >culture and its derivatives" thing is bullshit, all we really have is >modern culture, and be done with it? Then Bernstein's statement and >the Task Force's statments are equally nonsensical. True, but its not clear what "modern culture" is, as its constantly evolving. As you correctly point out, and Bork discusses elsewhere, there is no single "Eurpoean" culture. However, no society has prospered by failing to formally educate its youth in its cultural basis. Without substantial cultural unity a fractured and contentious society is a likely result. In Federalist No. 2, Publius (John Jay) wrote: Providence has been pleased to give this one connected coun- try, to one united people, a people decended from the same ancestors, speaking the same language, professing the same reli- gion, attached to the same princinple of government, very simi- lar in their manners and customs... This country and this people seem to have been made for each other, and it appears as if it was the design of Providence, that an inheritance so proper and convenient for a band of bretheren, united to each other by the strongest ties, should never be split into a number of unsocial, jealous and alien sovereignties. Despite the fact that we have increasingly become a hetrogeneous society, our culture and law is clearly Protestent English-based. It was not European or, as we now say, Eurocenteric. -- Steve

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Re: Experiments on Mailing Lists
by wireinfo 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM, dlv(a)bwalk.dm.com writes: >"Timothy C. May" <tcmay(a)got.net> writes: >> Except for the one of using the versions of majordomo (which exist, as I >> understand things) which only allow posts by subscribed members. This may >> nuke anonymous posts, but so what? The _possibility_ of anonymity, which we >> mostly all support, does not mean that people have to listen to such posts. >> And since the junk from anonymous posts is getting to be a serious >> problem.... >> >> Another possibility is that anonymous posts get kicked into a file for >> later approval or nonapproval by someone. Nothing fancy (that is, no >> "tokens" and complicated accounting systems, such as have been proposed), >> just a manual "moderation" by someone, or some set of volunteers, etc. >> Enough moderation to let the "Red Rackham" sorts of good posts through >> while blocking the "Make Money Fast" and barnyard insults from making it. ah, yes: "good" becomes so well-defined, as the "banyard insults" shoe drops. a lie, my grandmother used to tell me, is halfway around the world before the truth has even got its boots on. >Timmy seems to be VERY bothered by those anonymous posts and would >surely like them to stop - perfectly illustrating why the "cypher punks" >are enemies of free speech. Timmy can killfile anything he doesn't like, >but he wants to prevent everyone else from seeing whatever information >Timmy doesn't want to be disseminated. > >You lose, Timmy. The truth wants to be free. or somewhere around $19.95 a month, anyway. -just another internet MessAge Processor

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