December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
by Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Anil Das <das(a)sgi.com> writes: > Adam Back wrote: > > > > What do people think of starting an alt.cypherpunks USENET newsgroup? > > > > I have only one objection. I will never post to an Usenet group > under my real email address for fear of ending up in spammer > databases. > > -- > Anil Das > Learn to use an anonymous remailer. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: Ireland: Bid To Ban "Tamper Proof" Phones
by Phil Karn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Thanks for the info about the origins of the European GAK initiative. It would still be interesting to know how much of a hand the US has had (and continues to have) in influencing the crypto policies of other countries. Thanks also for the correction regarding divorce in Ireland. My sincere apologies if I offended anybody over there with my "socially backward" comment. Ireland is by no means unique even among western nations in having certain restrictive laws and practices regarding private social behavior. In general the US is not much better, and parts (especially the southeast) are probably worse. It is interesting that you would mention political terrorism and drug smuggling as prime factors pushing towards GAK in Ireland. The forces at work in the US government push towards GAK are quite similar. I am fond of saying that "national security" and "drugs" have become the root passwords to the US Constitution... Question: have there been any problems with the use of strong encryption (PGP, SSH, etc) on the Internet in Ireland? Is it widely used over there? Phil

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Re: Cypherpunks FOIA request
by Peter Hendrickson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:40 AM 2/5/1997, Greg Broiles wrote: > On 1/18/97, I sent freedom of information act requests to the FBI (main and > San Francisco offices), CIA, NSA, and Secret Service, asking them for copies > of information in their files relating to or referring to the cypherpunks > list, the cypherpunks meetings, and copies of any messages sent from or to > "cypherpunks(a)toad.com". > To date, I have received three responses: one from the SF office of the FBI, > indicating that they have no records responsive to my request; one from the > NSA, indicating that they are processing my request, and one from the Secret > Service, asking for a copy of my signature. (I've got no clue why they want > that; unless I screwed up, I believe my initial request was signed.) Have these organizations been known to lie? What penalties does the organization or its employees face when they do so? Have these penalties ever been applied? Also, which exceptions in the FOIA law would allow them to respond dishonestly? Inquiring minds want to know! Peter Hendrickson pdh(a)best.com

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Re: John's: In anarchy -everyone responsible
by Attila T. Hun 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- on or about 970204:2343 jim bell <jimbell(a)pacifier.com> said: +At 09:05 PM 2/4/97 +0000, Attila T. Hun wrote: +> In a "popular" anarchy, Jim Bell's assassination politics make +> perfectly good sense; but, a "popular" anarchy is not an _anarchy_. +I guess I don't understand the distinction you are trying to make, +between a "popular anarchy" and an "anarchy." Maybe you were trying +to distinguish between "dictatorship of the few (or one)" and +"dictatorship of the many (perhaps a majority)" but it didn't come out +very understandably. +Put simply, "anarchy is not the lack of order. It is the lack of +_orders_." disagree. pure anarchy is not the lack of "orders" --pure anarchy implies that everyone is imbued with that perfect sense of responsibility. +> anarchy is only possible in an ideal world where _everyone_ +> assumes not only responsibility for themselves, but for the common +> good. no malice, no greed, no need for assassination politics.... +No, that's traditional thinking and that's wrong. See AP part 8. +Freud believed (as "everyone" else believed, even myself, before AP) +that anarchy was inherently unstable. But it ISN'T, if the tools of +AP are used to stabilize it. And no, no altruism is necessary for AP +to work as well; no individuals are being asked to sacrifice +themselves for the common good. Rather, they are given the +opportunity to work to achieve a reward offered, cumulatively, by a +number of citizens. aah, but that is the difference between a _pure_ anarchy and a _popular_ anarchy. A pure _anarchy_ is sufficiently idealistic in that _noone_ lacks the necessary resonsibility to keep society moving, each individual in their own niche. As long as there is perfect responsibility in a perfect anarchy, then there is no need for AP. AP is a negative, or _punative_, influence; I might liken it to the Catholic Church which is a religion of fear, and an instrument of political control. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: No safety this side of the grave. Never was; never will be iQCVAwUBMvixAL04kQrCC2kFAQECsQQAlPSQRpEE2dAKkqrWSlPf79QhSBtYbjXa rEyAlOrmi8NOxgyb8hGF/VwVkURUKnPr4gGJW9JvwuPB2x/AQeT11ZEQyVqeFGNF 0W6WR7yv3XsOT9UM6JCP9hFLWU33BumcPd26w8f/Z5mx87qEUoXeJD4ApLv5QNI3 WlyL0xDT1PM= =sfD3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: what's in a name?
by Dave Hayes 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Greg Broiles <gbroiles(a)netbox.com> writes: > Wei Dai's message raises an important question: what is the relationship > between ownership and list content or quality? I'll assert that ownership can only have a negative impact on content. Freedom is preferable to bias, and hence loss of freedom can only hurt content...according to -my- standard of content anyway. > Are mailing lists an example of a situation where "the tragedy of the > commons" is not a useful metaphor? Yes. Such analogies assume that common people create tragedy, which is only true if their leaders have designed things to work that way. > Is the desire for an anarchic community at odds with a desire for > good use of resources? The network resources are there to handle email traffic. Attempting to place a non-technical content-based standard on the usage of resources invites censorship and leads to stagnation of ideas. If people would simply learn to filter what they don't like from their net.viewport, there would not be a perceived problem. ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave(a)jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet Nasrudin arrived at an all-comers horse race mounted on the slowest of oxen. Everyone laughed, an ox cannot run. "But I have seen it, when it was only a calf, running faster than a horse.", said Nasrudin. "So why should it not run faster, now that it is larger?"

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Re: Full strength Email Clients.
by Vangelis 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Steven Herod wrote: > > Hello, I'm in search of an *EASY TO USE* Internet Email client > software that uses full strength (outside US export restriction) RSA > encryption. Private Idaho (for Windoze), without question. It's freeware, and acts as an almost seamless front-end to PGP. I use it all the time w/ my crpto-aware friends. http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/pi.html -- Vangelis <vangelis(a)qnis.net> /\oo/\ Finger for public key. PGP KeyID 1024/A558B025 PGP Fingerprint AE E0 BE 68 EE 7B CF 04 02 97 02 86 F0 C7 69 25 Life is my religion, the world is my altar.

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Re: A Vote of Silence for Human Gus-Peter
by Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Larry Johnson <lwjohnson(a)grill.sk.ca> writes: > I want to be the new modernator so anyone who wants me to be it can > not send any messages, ok? > So any people who dont send messages are voting for me, ok? > > (If I am modernator I will give everyone free pizza and Schotch.) > > Ok. Now evceryone vote, ok? > > Human Gus-Peter > > I volunteer to moderate cypherpunks(a)toad.com. I'll use a 'bot (like Sandy uses a 'bot) to junk submissions from Gilmore, Sandfart, and other known homosexuals, and pass on everything else. It'll probably have better S/N that Sandy's censored list does now. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: Moderation [Tim,Sandy]
by Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> writes: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> writes: > > > > The drunk can be excluded, but when someone wants to use the drunk as > > > an example to escalate the exclusion to other persons who are not in > > > fact drunk, watch out! > > > If I get really really drunk, which happens very seldom, then I'm > > too drunk to post. I don't mind an occasional beer, though. > > > Oksas, have you ever tried beer? :-) > > I had my first beer(s) in three years at one of those industrial > parties last night. It made the craps table action seem a bit > merrier, and the girls were friendlier too. > I like an occasional Coors Lite. BTW I think Limey Faggots are right about one think: I like room-temperature beer better than cold beer. YMMV. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: If guilty of a lesser crime, you can be sentenced for a greater
by Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> writes: > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > Dale Thorn wrote: > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > > people who have such money are not going to bump off very many more > > > people than they already do, because: > > > 1. They need the people to make money off of (Mafia rule #4, never > > > kill someone who owes you money [or is a money source]). > > > This is a wrong Mafia rule, they do kill debtors who are in default. > > Really? Then how do they collect their money? BTW, I heard the rule > from the mouth of a real mob hitman. mafia used to have a habit of hiring some lonely person do do work for them (such as, set up their crypto infrastructure), then make him disappear, and he won' be missed, and they won't have to pay for the work. Bumping off the people that you owe money to is bad for one's rep. I'd be reluctant to do consulting for organized crime for this reason. Perhaps that's why the Feds have such easy time wiretapping them. :-) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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ITAR and Paper ROM
by azur＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it >should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of >easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper. That's about 800 kilobits, or >100 kilobytes. What does ITAR say about this? > > >Jim Bell >jimbell(a)pacifier.com I'm not sure if what I did in the 80s, trying to create what I called 'paper ROM, is applicable. In these investigations I used matricies of small (1-3 mm) squares of gray (16 levels) or color (64 levels) with a mind to replace diskettes for inexpensive mass data distribution. I was able to reliably get 100-200 KB/page side using standard offset printing. With modern ink-jet/laser printers you should be able to reliably get at least 10-50KB/page side. Although a technical success, I abandoned the effort when I discovered someone had patented (4,488,679) something similar a few years earlier. -- Steve

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Re: Getting into MIT is impossible
by Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

jim bell <jimbell(a)pacifier.com> writes: > Erland van Lidth de Jeude is a MIT grad. He played the big badass in "Stir > Crazy." Computer science major, BTW. > > > > > At 07:37 PM 2/3/97 -0800, Clint Barnett wrote: > >wasn't Dolph Lundgren an MIT grad? I seem to remember something about him > >having a degree in Chemical Engineering or something along those lines. > > > >clint barnett > >lord of the cosmos > >emily carr institute > > > >On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Anonymous wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> According to Rick Osborne: > >> > >> "I disagree and can speak from experience. I was denied admission to MIT > >> even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP test > >> with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2. As for being well-rounded, I > >> was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in > >> Drama, and played Tennis." > >> > >> People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most > >> intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions > >> practices are subject to the vagaries of reality. > >> > >> In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests. > >> And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I > >> was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the > >> way things turned out. > >> > >> And I decided not to go to MIT, either. > >> > >> "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money. > >> made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need > >> full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the > >> Russian front!"" > >> > >> My guess is that "other factors" were involved. > >> > >> I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT > >> required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and > >> had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT > >> rejected him, not his lack of a "1600." > >> > >> ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high > >> >school, too > >> > >> "Lucky you. It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying > >> overachiever of 6. Sux to be white trash, I guess." > >> > >> MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans, > >> grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you? > >> > >> "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the mo > >> part. (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty > >> assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.) > >> > >> I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snoot > >> asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was > >> _very_ impressed by this). > >> > >> Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable. > >> > >> Xanthar > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > > > > > > > Jim Bell > jimbell(a)pacifier.com > This thread has no crypto-relevance, but Sandy the Asshole forwards it to the censored list. He also sends crypto-relevant threads to the flames list. This will be the first post in this thread that Sandy the Asshole will junk. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: Information Warfare
by Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"tmcghan(a)mail.bcpl.lib.md.us" <tmcghan(a)mail.bcpl.lib.md.us> writes: > in a message allegedly from: Peter Hendrickson <pdh(a)best.com> > > > The cypherpunks list has been under "attack" for some time. > {snip} > > Some people have dismissed the idea that rogue governmental elements > > are behind some of our problems. > {snip} > > We know that "Information Warfare" is the big thing in the defense > > establishment right now. > > Information Warfare Conference > sponsored by DPMA/AITP > > Washington, DC, March 13-14, 1997 > Crystal City Marriott > 1999 Jefferson Davis Highway > Arlington, VA 22202 > > Presentations by: > Major General Michael V. Hayden, Commander, Air Intelligence Agency > Dr. C. Kenneth Allard, Competitive Strategies > Col. H. Stevens, Land Information Warfare Activity > > - current service visions and planned program initiatives > - operational concepts for 'third-wave' warfare > - information warfare drivers for 21st century C4I architectures > - emerging technologies and systems for information warfare > superiority: opportunities on the horizon > > 'information warfare targets and vulnerabilities', Maxim I. Kovel, > TASC systems management group > > 'information warfare for deterrence', William H.J. Manthorpe, Jr. > Applied Physics Laboratory, Johns Hopkins > > 'adaptive techniques for counter-deception', James Llinas, > technical advisor, DOD JDL, Data Fusion group > > 'emerging threats come in all sizes and flavors', Eugene Schultz, SRI > consulting > > "Information has been termed the 'fifth dimension' in the conduct of > 'third-wave' warfare, and promises to dramatically enhance the role > of C4I as a force multiplier. Joint and individual service doctrine > is emerging for IW, ans is affecting the needs and requirements for > diverse systems: from space-based surveillance and communications > systems to terrestrial image processing, visualization, and > information fusion systems." > > "This conference will provide a valuable forum where military and > industry staff can interact with key decision-makers to achieve the > most current possible understanding of Information Warfare concepts, > initiatives, technologies and potential opportunities. The Critical > Questions to be addressed include: > > - how is IW changing operational concepts? > - how can we defend the weak links in the planned > information-intensive reconnaissance, strike, targeting architecture? > - what developments in enabling technologies are needed to support > current Information Operations, Battlefield Visualization, and > Information Exploitation initiatives? > -what can be done to develop defensive information technology > capabilities? > > and last, but _c_e_r_t_a_i_n_l_y_ not least: > > - how will we move forward to develop a true offensive IW capability > > ============================================== > Many of my f2f meetings with the people on and around this mailing lists were at the InfoWarCon's. It's no secret that my research interests include IW (with PsyOps and DOS). And what was Gilmore (spit, fart) doing there? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
by Anil Das 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > Learn to use an anonymous remailer. Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but seats are available only in fall. -- Anil Das

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No Subject
by Bovine Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

May Timmy May's forgeries get stuck up his ass so he'll have to shit through his filthy mouth for the rest of its miserable life. ||||||||||| \~0/ \0~/ < (0) > --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timmy May

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Re: Deloitte-Touche?
by Marshall Clow 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Several people wrote: >I wrote: >>ObCrypto policy: >> Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy >>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon >>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of >>the government. [...] > >For the benefit of those of us who were not at this luncheon (probably >not even in the same country), could you please say more about this, >Marshall? What was the subject? What _did_ the DT speaker say, exactly? > After a while, I stopped taking notes, because I was so astounded at what he was saying. (Maybe someone with more complete notes could post a better summary) But, here a brief overview of the luncheon: Last Wednesday, January 29th, the Internet Privacy Coalition had a "policy lunch" in San Francisco. It was in one of the hotels hosting the RSA conference, and at the same time that the conference was breaking for lunch, so it was easy for attendees to "switch lunches". The speakers (as I remember, apologies to any I miss) were: Whit Diffie John Gilmore Kenneth Bass (counsel in Karn vs. Dept of State) Herb Lin (who ran the NRC staff for the crypto study) Marc Rotenberg William Hugh Murray (Deloitte & Touche) and a couple others that I missed, as I left early. Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech. He said that the government is going to crack down on domestic possession and use of crypto, that they were looking to increase their wiretapping capabilities 100-fold, and so on. He was very emphatic about not trusting anything that the government says, and that once they got their "foot in the door", that they would seek to expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc. He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He insisted that there was no way the government could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations, and to lobby their congresscritters to get the PRO-CODE bill passed. It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed accountant who was representing a large corporation whose job it is to help people obey the government. [ My father was an accountant. He worked for Deloitte-Touche, in fact. I don't expect accountants to be passionate about government regs, and especially not to advocate disobediance. Maybe that's why this affected me so strongly. ] -- Marshall Marshall Clow Aladdin Systems <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu> Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.

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Re: "alt.cypherpunks" people?
by Anil Das 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > Learn to use an anonymous remailer. Thanks for the hint, Dr. Vulis. I have registered for a course, but seats are available only in fall. -- Anil Das

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ITAR and Paper ROM
by Steve Schear 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Given that high-density inkjet printers can do 600x600 dpi resolution, it >should be possible to achieve the equivalent of 100x100 bpi of >easily-recoverable data on ordinary paper. That's about 800 kilobits, or >100 kilobytes. What does ITAR say about this? > > >Jim Bell >jimbell(a)pacifier.com I'm not sure if what I did in the 80s, trying to create what I called 'paper ROM, is applicable. In these investigations I used matricies of small (1-3 mm) squares of gray (16 levels) or color (64 levels) with a mind to replace diskettes for inexpensive mass data distribution. I was able to reliably get 100-200 KB/page side using standard offset printing. With modern ink-jet/laser printers you should be able to reliably get at least 10-50KB/page side. Although a technical success, I abandoned the effort when I discovered someone had patented (4,488,679) something similar a few years earlier. -- Steve

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No Subject
by Bovine Remailer 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

May Timmy May's forgeries get stuck up his ass so he'll have to shit through his filthy mouth for the rest of its miserable life. ||||||||||| \~0/ \0~/ < (0) > --oOO--/|||\--OOo- Timmy May

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Re: OECD Waffles
by Marshall Clow 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>2-4-97. Reuters: > >Global group fails to endorse Clinton encryption plan > >Washington: An influential economic research group is preparing >guidelines on computer encryption for its member countries but >will duck some of the most contentious issues involved, according >to a draft obtained by Reuters. > [snip] Gee, that's funny.... I could have sworn I heard the Hon. Abassador Aaron tell us last week that the US had "strong international support" for its' key recovery programs, especially from the OECD. Here's a quote from an earlier Reuters article: > Wednesday January 29 3:26 PM EST > >U.S. Encryption Envoy Seeks Industry Cooperation > > SAN FRANCISCO - The Clinton administration's newly named point man on > encryption policy is citing international support for U.S. policies > limiting use of encryption and called for industry cooperation. > > Ambassador David Aaron, special envoy for cryptography, said on a > speech to the RSA Data Security Conference in San Francisco that U.S. > allies support the concept of lawful access by governments and the use > of key recovery mechanisms. and a quote from the NY Times: >The New York Times, January 29, 1997, p. D19. > > > Consensus Sought on Computer Coding > > By John Markoff > > San Francisco -- The Clinton administration's top overseas representative > on cryptography -- or data scrambling -- told a group of skeptical > computer industry executives and technical experts Tuesday that important > allies support the administration's position that governments should have > access-coded computer files and digital communications. > > The speech by David L. Aaron, made on the opening day of a computer > security conference, was part of a renewed effort by the administration > to gain broad support for its efforts to control data-scrambling > technologies, which are increasingly viewed as crucial components of > electronic commerce and communications. I am shocked, SHOCKED, I say, that a representative of our government would mislead us in this way. -- Marshall Marshall Clow Aladdin Systems <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu> Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.

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Re: AltaVista Tunnel
by Mark Rogaski 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- An entity claiming to be Anil Das wrote: : : Rick Osborne wrote: : > : > He triumphantly exclaimed that the encryption was 128-bit, but when : > I said "128-bit what?" he cowered and muttered that he didn't know and went : > on with his little speech. The rest of my crypto-specific questions met : > with equal dark stares. And these are the people setting industry standards... : : I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give : them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches : on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the : system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in : technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency, : between the two. : If the marketing-droid didn't have the ability to answer such a basic question, DEC should have just sent out videotape promos. I don't understand why they went through the expense of sending warm bodies out on a roadshow without giving them enough specification about the product to give an effective presentation to a predominantly tech-oriented audience. From whom did they expect the questions to come? A competent marketing professional would AT LEAST know what standards/protocols the product supported, does a car company send its sales force out without knowing if the cars use gas or diesel? Another example of how the Macro$loth mindset of tossing out random buzzwords to a chorus of ooooh's and ahhhh's has polluted the industry. In Rick's case, DEC's image was deflated. OK, so how many other people present got the same impression. And it's very likely that one of those people is a decision maker, or the anecdote got back to one of the decision makers. So, due to DEC's failure to ensure that their sales force new the product, they can probably scratch Grumman off of their potential client list. Mark - -- [] Mark Rogaski || "Computers save time like kudzu [] [] wendigo(a)pobox.com || prevents soil erosion." [] [] http://www.pobox.com/~wendigo/ || - afcasta(a)texas.net [] [] >> finger for PGP pubkey << || [] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMvjCjBz4pZwIaHjdAQEziAf/WXyN1MHZd5E77RIGwQIk37gcTKAnDATS gKpKW/MWENV5qF7sEdJ/5BEE5KpJUsUvG9+/9ZfmjwLJbaiIAiIKBkLto5oBCwFi 0uR7RFqDCtIIsVzDb+L6gzAKJ98WDTHeaQO7uy3NDo6WkuGdIDtcxe5mzuLmekjE wlnNy3PCmU6LYZivuW4L8IAXQ+Fd263DX4WaR2FbRGXmdH6/QCJHp7kerjuppNtD rCaUh1yFoxmzzZp2QLgYhZRGDNzw7SKPCcmMBcPk2873f+U9kdEWrz0LzSQwSlRN zZGXZMfsuF6PrLckRS8fGO00/ZVuh4byiqGffSP++zwEE6GDcFHR4A== =Caug -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: AltaVista Tunnel
by Rick Osborne 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 03:48 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Anil Das wrote: >I should be happy that you are bashing a competitor and all, but give >them a break, OK? The marketing dweeb who has to do product pitches >on roadshows is not the same as the design engineer who designs the >system and sets technical standards. There can be a big difference in >technical knowledge about the product, and even basic competency, >between the two. Oh, I understand that. But I do expect at least a *tiny* bit of knowledge on the product by said marketers. I mean, the entire base of PPTP is crypto. It's like trying to explain a word processor without knowing what a paragraph is. When I went to the networks guys, they answered every one of my questions about the routers, packet sniffing, etc. without hesitation. The nice lady with the .5TB RAID array was just as competent. The only person in that entire truck that couldn't answer my questions was this one guy. It just goes back to the old thread of "why don't people know about crypto?" _________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________ If it's broke, send it back. If it works, take it apart and find out why.

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Re: Deloitte-Touche?
by Marshall Clow 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Several people wrote: >I wrote: >>ObCrypto policy: >> Was anyone else besides me amazed by the guy >>from Deloitte-Touche at the Internet Privacy Coalition luncheon >>last week? I mean, he all but advocated violent overthrow of >>the government. [...] > >For the benefit of those of us who were not at this luncheon (probably >not even in the same country), could you please say more about this, >Marshall? What was the subject? What _did_ the DT speaker say, exactly? > After a while, I stopped taking notes, because I was so astounded at what he was saying. (Maybe someone with more complete notes could post a better summary) But, here a brief overview of the luncheon: Last Wednesday, January 29th, the Internet Privacy Coalition had a "policy lunch" in San Francisco. It was in one of the hotels hosting the RSA conference, and at the same time that the conference was breaking for lunch, so it was easy for attendees to "switch lunches". The speakers (as I remember, apologies to any I miss) were: Whit Diffie John Gilmore Kenneth Bass (counsel in Karn vs. Dept of State) Herb Lin (who ran the NRC staff for the crypto study) Marc Rotenberg William Hugh Murray (Deloitte & Touche) and a couple others that I missed, as I left early. Mr. Murray gave a long, impassioned speech. He said that the government is going to crack down on domestic possession and use of crypto, that they were looking to increase their wiretapping capabilities 100-fold, and so on. He was very emphatic about not trusting anything that the government says, and that once they got their "foot in the door", that they would seek to expand their abilities to regulate, etc, etc. He advocated deployment of strong crypto. He insisted that there was no way the government could stop the export of strong crypto. He exhorted people to refuse to obey the ITAR/EAR regulations, and to lobby their congresscritters to get the PRO-CODE bill passed. It wasn't really what he said that amazed me, because I had heard most of it (in bits and pieces) before. It was presenting it all in a package, in an emotional manner, by an elderly, conseratively dressed accountant who was representing a large corporation whose job it is to help people obey the government. [ My father was an accountant. He worked for Deloitte-Touche, in fact. I don't expect accountants to be passionate about government regs, and especially not to advocate disobediance. Maybe that's why this affected me so strongly. ] -- Marshall Marshall Clow Aladdin Systems <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu> Warning: Objects in calendar are closer than they appear.

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I'm Just A Kid (But If I Was A Secret Goverhnment Guy...)
by Larry Johnson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I would:> Make regular government guys pass all kinds of laws and stuff to keep regular people from having what they need to be talking to each other in secret where I couldnt listen. (Cause Im the Secret Guy--not them!) Sic lawyers and persecutors on a guy if he made some secret-keeping stuff that worked and let everyone have it if they wanted it. Make my own secret software stuff using guys who want to make a lot of money and will do what I want if I make it so they will. Make businesses lose money unless they used my own secret software stuff cause they couldnt sell it everywhere unless they did what I said. Make a secret guy coup on troublemakers and take over their stuff so I could use it just for other secret guys and business guys to tell everyone to use just my own secret-keeping software stuff. I would make a secret guy coup on a mailing list if it was causing trouble for me. I wouldnt do it until I had my own secret stuff ready to give to everyone though. And I would have my other secret guys already on the list waiting for me to tell them what to do. I would cause a lot of trouble on the list and use it to get rid of the troublemaker guys and make everyone think that I am a good guy saving them from bad guys wearing black hats and shooting at them with penis-pictures. I would let another guy be a dumb guy and do all the bad things for me on the list so everyone would be mad at him and not at me. I would let my secret smart guys on the list tell everyone that the dumb guy wasnt doing dumb and bad things. I would make them say things that sound real smart but dont really mean anything except in the direction they are pointing their fingers to make people look. I would have my secret guys all saying underneath the conscious stuff together so that everyone would start believing things that I want them to believe. {My uncle just got back from his trip so he is going to help me with the rest (just the spelling and stuff though) and then he is going to kill me for making his secret machine call him a _lamer_ when he boots it up} <::>I want everyone to believe<::> :>I had to save the list cause it was sick. My secret guys talk about "the PATHOLOGY of the list" :>Dictatorship will save them from the chaos of anarchy. My secret guys talk about the "TRAGEDY of the COMMONS" :>It is not me but other guys who are trying to steal the list. My secret guys say "PRIVATE ACTORS..EXTRACT..REPUTATION CAPITAL." :>Its ok to throw doo-doo on the only original list guy who wont :>kiss secret guy/big business ass by connecting him in peoples :>heads with the guy everyone knows is a bad guy (because he uses :>bad words. My secret guys say "DMITRI VULIS' BEHAVIOR...SEEKS TO PUNISH THE LIST for failing to PUNISH or OSTRACIZE TIM MAY..TIM MAY WAS DISRESPECTFUL" <--"PRIVATE GAIN (PUBLIC RETRIBUTION)"-->OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...TIM MAY WAS DISRESPECTFUL...PUNISH TIM MAY(PUBLIC RETRIBUTION)..."ATTEMPT TO ACHIEVE PRIVATE GAIN...AT THE EXPENSE OF...QUALITY AND GOOD NAME OF THE LIST"...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...DIMITRI VULIS' BEHAVIOR...TIM MAY IS DISRESPECTFUL...DIMITRI VULIS..TIM MAY :>Only a few riff-raff are misrepresenting Dictatorship. My secret guys say "Several..." (the few that escaped the censors jackboot) "AUTHORS..." (people who only make stuff up in writing) "CHARACTERIZED JOHN GILMORE AND SANDY SANDFORT's..." ('made up' the bad character of) "with RESPECT to MODERATION"...RESPECT MODERATION ...RESPECT MODERATION...RESPECT MODERATION :>I am not a Dictator who is stealing the list. My secret guys use nice polite words to describe what people really called dictatorship and stealing. "MONOPOLIZE" instead of DICTATORSHIP "APPROPRIATE" instead of STEAL. :>Freedom and gain should be associated with private ownership. My secret guys would put words in the mouths of "FREE-market" guys (standing by an American flag with their hands over their hearts singing the national anthem) and make them say that the "SOLUTION TO "TRAGEDY...IS PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...MAXIMIZE LONG-TERM GAIN...CAREFUL MANAGEMENT" :>If there is no list Fuhrer to say how things will always be done then the email won't run on time. My secret guys say "WASTEFUL...HARMFUL SHORT-TERM STRATEGIES..." are what everyone is going to get without a having a Dictator and "PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...ELIMINATE...WASTEFUL...NONOPTIMAL USE OF RESOURCES" and "WORK towards...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP"..."ANARCHIC COMMUNITY AT ODDS WITH...GOOD USE OF RESOURCES"...WORK-->PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...ANARCHIC-->WASTEFUL...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP-->SOLUTION TO TRAGEDY...ANARCHIC-->HARMFUL<->TIM MAY<->DIMITRI VULIS<->HARMFUL ANARCHIC...PRIVATE OWNERSHIP-->HISTORICAL...OSCTRACIZE TIM MAY TIM WAS DISRESPECTFUL...ANARCHIC HARMFUL...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY WORK=PRIVATE OWNERSHIP...WORK=PRIVATE OWNERSHIP ANARCHIC HARMFUL...OSTRACIZE TIM MAY...ANARCHIC...DISRESPECTFUL DIMITRI VULIS=TIM MAY...DIMITRI VULIS=TIM MAY=DIMITRI VULIS OSTRACIZE TIM VULIS... If I was a secret government guy I would make a cypherpunks home page and fix it so that anyone who used the "legendary and massive directory of global Internet resources" (a fancy name for a bunch of Yahoos) to search for cypherpunks would only find my home page and the home pages of two crazy guys. My home page wouldnt have any links to other peoples cypherpunks mail list stuff but only the one my secret guys were taking over. I would hope nobody would notice that almost everyone in the world who searches for the cypherpunks would only find the mailing list that is censored by my guy and my autobot. I would hope that nobody would notice that the guy saying hes checking to see if secret government guys are messing with the cypherpunks is one of my guys. Of course Im just a kid and not a secret government guy so I cant do all this stuff. Good thing for you guys, huh? (But you guys should watch out for messages that start with saying, "You are getting sleepy...you are getting very very sleepy...) Anyway my uncle is kicking me off of cypherpunks so he can clean up my mess in my dads email before he gets home. And then hes going to kill me (but only after I help him find the silver key on the second level of Duke Nukem3D--hes a gamer-lamer). You guys might think Im a lamer myself but I got my Sandy flame on the censored list (on my very first message) using kindegarten cryptography and you didnt so maybe you could learn something from a kid, huh? My uncle says he doesnt think kids (or anybody else) should have what they say thrown in the flames-crapper just because someone doesnt like what they say. He used to go behind the Iron Curtain so people could hear what other people didnt want them to hear and now he goes behind the ElectroMagnetic Curtain instead and he says he wont let any lamers shut me up just because their ashamed of what their doing and dont want anyone to know about it. He helped me with some of this but only to not sound like a real lamer (just a bit of a lamer) but not with what I think about the cypherpunks. I learned how to read with the Froggie manual and cypherpunks messages and government stuff and stuff by my dead uncle who is dead because of what he wrote about the guys who started the internet in the first place. (Their not good guys.) I like you guys. Dont bend over for the lamers. Dont start to cry. Just keep on being flamers. Bitch and shout. Dont worry about the schisms. And dont let the Fascists take Your algorithms. Lamers come and go So dont worry bout their junk Anarchists have <Delete> keys They're Immortal CypherPunks. I have to go get killed now. Human Gus-Peter grandson of gomez

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Re: Silly Americans
by Rick Osborne 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>At 09:37 PM 2/4/97 -0500, Rick Osborne wrote: >>a philosophical note, why *do* we allow the government to regulate >>algorithms? (Implementations, I can understand, but *algorithms*?) At 03:33 AM 2/5/97 -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: >Because they're bigger than we are and better-armed? Okay, I can accept that ... >Because there's lots of money to be made by people patenting things? This i have a little more trouble with ... Sure *one* company can make alot of money, but *one* company making money doesn't stimulate the economy. >Because big companies can use it to interfere with competition? Once again, this is non- and even counter-productive. Pure competition is great, but if only one company has a product, there is *no* competition. >Because it's good for the economy because it encourages inventors >of algorithms to publish them and make money by doing so? No: many companies using the same algorithm with different implementations is good for the economy. It's like this: say that way back when the first electronic spreadsheet was produced, someone patented it. It then evolved into Excel. Now, no one else can do any kind of electronic spreadsheet, because Microsoft has the rights. There is no competetion and anyone who wants to use an electronic spreadsheet has to use Excel. This would be great for Microsoft, but horrible for everyone else. Lotus 1-2-3 would have never existed, etc, etc, etc. The constant chatter about the expiration of the Diffie patent proves my point: if everyone was satisfied with what there was, then no one would be gearing up to produce their own products. Competition is a *good* thing. You can't evolve without it ... _________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________ Once a Junior Programmer interrupted a Great Guru of the Sun to ask a Question of no importance. The Great Guru replied in words which the Junior Programmer did not understand. The Junior Programmer sought to rephrase the Question, saying, "Stop me if I appear stupid." The great Guru, without speaking, reached over and pressed L1-A. The Junior Programmer achieved Enlightenment.

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New type2.list/pubring.mix
by John A. Perry 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hello Everyone, I've just updated the type2.list/pubring.mix combination on jpunix.com to reflect the retirement of rebma. The files are available by anonymous FTP from ftp.jpunix.com as well as by WWW from www.jpunix.com. Additionally, the files are now available by IRC (EFnet) by accessing the rops bot on #remailop. Just send a /msg rops hello so rops will recognize you. You can then do a /dcc chat rops, go to the file area and then do a /dcc get. John Perry KG5RG perry(a)alpha.jpunix.com PGP-encrypted e-mail welcome! Amateur Radio Address: kg5rg(a)kg5rg.ampr.org WWW - http://www.jpunix.com PGP 2.62 key for perry(a)jpunix.com is on the keyservers. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMvjs0lOTpEThrthvAQHrnQP8CRmcUbp5fndiFyfTdDXmmMYNHj7wteBG 8S9kw1J9TnDpjaXI5fy+OXzX7UthDjO5HznmBjx/iv4ozZ6d5SnNiKFyRGSok3lB +o6EovbYtp1fUZ7JzDF/0fqCn5vs/v5LetIDYSNrAjz6utiFk0/Lfh9VQyu/FlJq +R4+H/UC+bw= =qlqM -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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