December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

"Meeks Unfiltered" on ISP-TV Wednesday nights
by ISP-TV Main Contact 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

*** ISP-TV Program Announcement: "Meeks Unfiltered" *** Wednesday, Nov. 20 *** *** 8:00 PM ET *** Brock N. Meeks, publisher of the 800,000 subscriber CyberWire Dispatch electronic news service, will bring his crusading style into real-time Internet video with "Meeks Unfiltered." The live uncensored hour-long show, produced and distributed through ISP-TV, will explore cyberspace and cyberpolitics Wednesdays at 8 PM Eastern Time. *** If you missed last week's show with Brock and Declan McCullagh, you can listen to a RealAudio version at: http://www.digex.net/isptv/meeks.html *** "Meeks Unfiltered" can be viewed on the ISP-TV main CU-SeeMe reflector at IP 205.197.247.33, or other ISP-TV affiliate reflectors listed at http://www.digex.net/isptv/members.html See URL http://www.digex.net/isptv for more information about the ISP-TV Network To obtain Enhanced CU-SeeMe software, go to: http://goliath.wpine.com/cudownload.htm

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Exposing GAK / Clipper III
by Tim Scanlon 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

(this is my preliminary .02 cents on a part of this so far) I've been giving the "how to deal with this" question some thought, as it seems the government strategy is to chip away at our right to privacy via extorting compromise and any other method they can come up with. It occurs to me that one of the things that has been going on, is that the Government (US) in it's discussion of crypto and what it will and won't allow, has been playing on the nature of the beast somewhat. In that many of the most tradtional uses of crypto are to keep the conversations of governments private, there is a neccesary tradition of quiet and secrecy that goes on about it. It appears to me that this aspect of "quiet" discussion has carried over into the discussions with the private sector over it. Well, the problem I see with that is that it makes little to no sense. There is no reason for it. In many, many other sectors of the government, with the defense industry perhaps being the most leading one, private entities of all sorts, and particularly corporations, go to a serious effort to openly lobby their positions as well as what they want PUBLICLY to the government. The recent spam of TV ads in the DC area by Lockheed Martin corp. is a very good example of this type of effort. My point being, what sorts of things the government is asking of industry should be far more openly disputed and discussed, and lobbied than they are. Crypto is not the black art, nor is it that-which-has-no name and should you say it you'll be struck by lightning type of thing that certain gov entities treat it as, it's a frakin tool to ensure privacy, and that's all. Granted, it's one hell of a hard tool to work on and with, but it's still just a tool. We need more openess from industry and interested corporations. Lame press confrences that come after the fact are not in their or the public's interest. Perhaps we as the public should try to encourage that more directly from corps as well. Tim

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Rogue Governments Issuing Policy Tokens
by Timothy C. May 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

We've touched on this issue several times, in several contexts. The problem (for GAK) of "rogue governments" is this: a government such as Libya or Panama, henceforth to be known as "Rogueitania," issues policy cards to all of its citizens, and to all those visiting Rogueitania, and perhaps through the mail to anyone who pays some fee. So, unless the U.S. actually does implement _import controls_ on such things, the willingness of Rogouitania to freely issue policy cards with no restrictions, guts the U.S. system. (The crypto community does in fact call these issuers "rogue governments." For example, in the mid-80s this was the subject of some "Crypto" papers about rogue governments (like Libya) possibly being willing to issue false passports to agents, terrorists, etc. Gee, the U.S. would have no interest in doing such a thing, either for their own agents, their own covert action squads, or their own 50,000 people given false identities in the Witness Security Program.) We raised many issues similar to this during the Clipper I, Clipper II, etc., exercises. The whole issue of why foreign governments would willingly see the NSA with intercept capabilities for their traffic was never addressed by the Administration. Nor was the issue of rogue governments. Nor many other issues. (I don't even think Denning and her Blue Ribbon Panel ever issued their final report on their weekend-long study of Clipper....events sort of made it moot.) And I don't expect substantive answers to our questions on the latest Clipper announcement for years, if ever. --Tim May "The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology." [NYT, 1996-10-02] We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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FW: Unsubtroll
by Butler, Scott 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

FOR GOD'S SAKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >---------- >From: piotrk@opnt.optimus.wroc.pl[SMTP:piotrk@opnt.optimus.wroc.pl] >Sent: 19 November 1996 05:04 >Subject: Unsubtroll > >>unsubtroll >

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Re: Playing Cards - Caution!
by Alan Olsen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:01 PM 11/18/96 -0800, Peter Hendrickson wrote: >Here's why I now prefer dice: Dice are simple. Each die throw can be >made to be quite independent of all other die throws. Even loaded dice >may be used by throwing them repeatedly and adding the results mod the >number of sides to the die. Dice which are suspect may be studied by >repeated throwing. Non-independence can be more easily studied as >it can be assumed that a throw of the die is, at most, related only >to the previous throw and none before. I used dice to generate my ATM access code for my last bank account. (10-sided dice left over from my role-gaming days...) The looks I got from the bank personnel was pretty hillarious. They had little to know clue about guessable passwords or related issues. (You would be amazed as to how many people use birthday information and the like for ATM codes.) But then again, they though that the "bank at home" software was pretty secure too... --- | "Remember: You can't have BSDM without BSD." - alan(a)ctrl-alt-del.com | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano(a)teleport.com |

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Re: Extreme Left/Right
by Alan Olsen 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 02:59 AM 11/19/96 -0400, amp wrote: >I first saw mention of a chart similar to this in the 60s. It was a way of >describing beliefs politically that was put forth by Jerry Pournelle. (Who >is available on the net btw.) That must be one hell of a download... ]:> >> When I used to listen to a certain "leftist" radio station broadcasting >> out of New York City, they would talk about "left-wing", communist >> dictatorships and "right-wing", fascist dictatorships. A dictatorship is >> a dictatorship!!! The "wing" that it comes from makes no difference!! > >Yup. You hit the nail on the head here. This is something that any thinking >person should recognise. The basic way we are taught to understand and >reference politics =makes=no=sense=. The question is whether you wish to be tortured by the Government forces or the Peoples Revolutionary army. (I guess is comes down to which side has had more practice this week...) Also, will this be deliberate torture or the accidental kind. ("Oops. Sorry. We were actually after a dully elected representative of the four horseman. You just got in the way. Maybe it will grow back...") >> The >> way the media defines these things makes no sense; you can't have a >> dictatorship on BOTH sides of a POLITICAL SPECTRUM no more than you can >> have YELLOW on both sides of the COLOR SPECTRUM. > >Take a gander at the libertarian's chart. I think it is a more accurqte way >of describing people, and in fact is similar in some ways to what you >describe. A philosophy is charted based on how one views personal and >property rights. This assumes that there are only two basic axises that rights are based opon. Some of those can get pretty fuzzy. To properly describe how the system works would require an n-dimensional hyperpolygon of indeterminate size. (Kind of like describing the black budget. You know it is there, but looking at it is difficult, and if they catch you looking the hounds of tindalos will be coming at you out of every corner of the woodwork.) Personally, I am a political non-euclidean. --- | "Remember: You can't have BSDM without BSD." - alan(a)ctrl-alt-del.com | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano(a)teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.teleport.com/~alano/ | alano(a)teleport.com |

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Re: Extreme Left/Right
by amp 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: cypherpunks(a)toad.com Date: Tue Nov 19 04:35:41 1996 =snip= >I first saw mention of a chart similar to this in the 60s. It was a way of >describing beliefs politically that was put forth by Jerry Pournelle. (Who >is available on the net btw.) ao> That must be one hell of a download... ]:> I must be getting a bit dense. It took me a while for your comment to sink in... >Take a gander at the libertarian's chart. I think it is a more accurqte way >of describing people, and in fact is similar in some ways to what you >describe. A philosophy is charted based on how one views personal and >property rights. ao> This assumes that there are only two basic axises that rights are ao> based opon. Some of those can get pretty fuzzy. To properly ao> describe how the system works would require an n-dimensional ao> hyperpolygon of indeterminate size. (Kind of like describing the ao> black budget. You know it is there, but looking at it is difficult, ao> and if they catch you looking the hounds of tindalos will be coming ao> at you out of every corner of the woodwork.) Agreed. The problem is, how complicated do you want it to be? If we are going to be classifying people by their political philosophy, the sustem we use should at least be usable. An n-dimensional model would probably be a highly accurate representation if properly constructed, but who would sit through the grilling it requires? (perhaps someone might be willing to =force= you to be grilled, but it wouldn't be pleasant imo.) A third axis would probably pinpoint things a bit better than a 2-dimensional model, but I must admit, I'm at a loss as to exactly what this third line would be. I think 'personal' and 'economic' liberty are a pretty good barometer of someone's thinking. It's not, by any means, perfect, but it is easily understandable even by most people today. amp ao> Personally, I am a political non-euclidean. Indeed. Thank God the universe is non-euclidean and non-newtonian as well. === amp(a)pobox.com Earth First! We'll strip mine the other planets later! === -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMpGNflUbR1RWr40pAQEtyAf8DdM8I8wKHftp+wnm6McMPbCRWada8NNC cfvVMMmcowCEXbzXRli/+BU30YUan3Qr/Uf3nvqsT+yasfHJPEJIaIaUy7J+NC6w IX+FQqpuDi3Hrh2B805qeq6erc0KWEkJkxZuV1WU1Akt+qk7DWPdVbwSmBF6Ae3z 1K8KxH1Z53NZ8HtWAfPzD6OV+cvCo66a+JwFxrEt02IGoZ6L53p9oQeDY81siGtl xGmA+1xJ0cZtnqnUY6CuhG6As4iqr254ZdVSnszaI/lPrJCKG/w1aj9+5/UDoU1J VcJfrTsdYaWDyuhxqeIkPbRNkFNr47KVnnPw7Ebemqmz2RjVdo18xQ== =AlLl -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: The Utility of Privacy
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 06:54 PM 11/18/96 -0500, Black Unicorn wrote: >> Not long ago, a college education was essentially a death warrant >> in Cambodia. Prior to that, a degree was considered a good thing >> there. People saw no reason to hid the fact that they had been >> in school. Trouble is, things changed. > >Oh, come on. That could never happen here. Where have I heard that line before? Sandy was giving an actual example of a general problem. Educated people were executed in Cambodia. That may not happen here but it is very common for innocent legal activities or characteristics to later become very illegal and subject to punishment. Examples: Judaism in Germany in 1900 vs 1940 Smoking in America in 1950 vs 1996 Spanking children in Sweden 1950 vs 1996 Owning gold in America in 1930 vs 1933 Publishing and distributing "Discovery of the Orgone" in the 1940s vs the 1950s The problem is that you can't always guess in advance which of your behaviors or characteristics will get you in trouble later. The fewer people who know your affairs the less trouble you will be in when things change. DCF "When I was born, smoking was a virtue and sodomy a vice."

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Re: NO commo to "Faggot" cypherpunk list
by Stephen Boursy 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

George A. Stathis wrote: > > Black Unicorn wrote: > >>> Any list run by an admitted Faggot is no place >>> where I will allow an audience. That certainly is your right alough I'd personally differ. >> >>Oh, this guy is for free speech. Sure. I saw nothing to the contrary--did you? >>Freedom Knights? Try Knights of the KKK. Oh my. > I think you ought to realize by now, Mr. "Black Unicorn", that > aga (like everyone of us) has a right to his own likes and dislikes. > They may alienate some people, offend others, but I sincerily believe > that equating his "dislike of faggots" to the "KKK" is seriously > misleading. > One of Dr. Grubor's cosmic purposes in life is to bring the vermin out of the woodwork--we have yet another. Steve

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Re: Securing Electronic Mail Within HMG
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Ben Laurie wrote: >This document is available on the Web, at: > >http://www.xopen.org/public/tech/security/pki/casm/casm.htm > >see also my "addendum" to Anderson & Roe's paper (which is actually a critique >of the above proposal, rather than RH itself) at: > >http://www.algroup.co.uk/crypto/rh.html Ben rightly points to a complete and handsome forebear of our gap-toothed descendant. We withdraw ours. Thanks Ben. And thanks for your "addendum" to A&R.

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Re: REQUESTING INFORMATION :-)
by Clay Olbon II 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 01:53 AM 11/19/96 -0200, George A. Stathis wrote (in part): >I REQUEST INFORMATION on those people who compile "Unemployability >Lists" in the USA, as well as ANY other information on this issue. You can add me to your list. I keep an "unemployability list" - although I don't write it down or put it on a computer. >We Greeks would like ALL the names of the people who act as "Informers" >of companies denouncing those unfortunate Americans who are doomed >to unemployment. We plan to give these names to all our friends, so >as to warn them WHO to avoid during our summer holidays in Greek >Islands. Why don't you come back to reality. I have hired and fired people. Those that I fired I would not hire again. There are others I have worked with that I would never hire (and would strongly recommend against anyone else hiring). That is life. I have little sympathy for the "unfortunate" people that I may hurt by not recommending their employment. Generally it is because they are lazy, stupid, or dishonest. This is a judgement call on my part, and others are free to take or discard my recommendations based on my reputation. Here is my recommendation for you. Take my "unemployables" list. Hire everyone on it. Try to run a business without going broke. Hiring people based on reputation is a system that works. I'm sorry if this impinges on your sensibilities. Reality has a tendency to do that though. Clay ******************************************************* Clay Olbon olbon(a)ix.netcom.com engineer, programmer, statistitian, etc. **********************************************tanstaafl

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Re: Crypto Bounties
by Ian Grigg 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

azur(a)netcom.com wrote: > Why not the free market rate the programmers. Have a software > distribution/payment collection system which requires that the programmer > get a completion bond from a 3rd-part insurance company. If the programmer > fails to deliver as promised and/or on-time the donding company pays the > 'investors' back in full. Since the bonding company's money would be at > risk, if the programmer failed to deliver, they have every incentive to > conservatively rate the programmers/companies offering ot build SW to spec. What you are essentially doing is buying reputation I guess, although I am not familiar with completion bonds, so I the following is mostly conjecture on their nature. There are two major feature/bugs with the completion bond. Firstly, it requires the bonding company to make a judgement, and this adds a weak point into the link. That judgement will then result in a lot of emphasis on the fine print of the contract, and fundamentally, software doesn't work very well when fine print gets involved. The notion of "completion" especially sits oddly with the scenario described, where freeware of mostly source form gets distributed to a wide group of programmers who can adjust minor problems fairly easily. I would guess that when EDS delivers a product, there are completion ("penalty") clauses, but when the Internet was "delivered" there was no such clause. Secondly, the existance of an intermediary points to a major inefficiency in the market. Whilst your joy at paying intermediaries may vary, historically, intermediaries follow a pattern of building barriers to entry, raising charges, and slowing innovation. This is theory that is generally applicable in practice, and it is for this reason that the emphasis in my post was on removing the single point of guaruntee. In the context, I would also question the nature of a financial entity that was willing to sell its reputation to cryptoanarchists. > >[slash] However, I like this viewpoint because it > >eliminates the need for judges. History shows that a good market > >microstructure will beat an authority approach in the long run. By aiming for no single point of judgement, the only solution that we found was to rely on a multi-shot game, with past reputation leading to up-front payment leading to confirmation of reputation. As it happens, the bonding companies will rely heavily on reputation as well, in its varying forms, anyway. snow(a)smoke.suba.com originally asked: > >> Has anything like this been proposed before? > > Yes, Eric Hughes proposed a broad and structured proposal primarily > addressing this manner of market funding for software development (and > possibly suitable for other intellectual property creation) at DEFCON IV. > My previous comments on completion bonds were taken from his presentation. Yes, I saw that earlier post, and did a quick search for it but no luck. If any one can point us at the paper, that would be useful. On a slightly related note - is there any interest in setting up a mailgroup for programmers and designers of markets? There's plenty of cash stuff out there but I know of no forums for trading of fungible items. -- iang iang(a)systemics.com

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Re: [NOISE] U.S. CIA employee caught spying
by trei＠process.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Tim Scanlon <tfs(a)adsl-122.cais.com> writes: > This is on the local DC news; > Harold Nicholson age 46, a CIA employee was arrested for spying today > at Dulles airport. He allegedly has been working for the Russians > for the past 2 years. > He was caught after he failed a series of polys, and bank account > irregularities had been noticed, as well as suspcious travel. > They got him on hidden video apperently photocopying documents > that he intended to pass along. > Tim If he's found guilty, I hope that they throw the book at the traitor. He apparently was a trainer of agents, and as such was in a positiona to identify many to the Russians. I wonder how many died so he could earn his $140,000? Peter Trei trei(a)porcess.com

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Re: REQUESTING INFORMATION :-)
by George A. Stathis 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:07 ðì 19/11/1996 -0500, Clay Olbon II wrote: 9in response to...) >>to unemployment. We plan to give these names to all our friends, so >>as to warn them WHO to avoid during our summer holidays in Greek >>Islands. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Why don't you come back to reality. Gee! hey, hey, hey... that was a joke!... :-) >I have hired and fired people. Those >that I fired I would not hire again. So have I, as a matter of fact. Though I found that people who don't become friends _and_ business _partners_ as well, tend to be useless due to the _type_ of we're doing here. We don't need 'workers'; we need co-developers, responsible partners and co-researchers. We are in Natural Language Processing (with PROLOG/'C'/Assembly). >There are others I have worked with >that I would never hire (and would strongly recommend against anyone else >hiring). That is life. I have little sympathy for the "unfortunate" people >that I may hurt by not recommending their employment. Generally it is >because they are lazy, stupid, or dishonest. ^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^ I understand you completely here. I sympathize. >This is a judgement call on my >part, and others are free to take or discard my recommendations based on my >reputation. You sound honest and down to earth. I like these qualities very much. >Here is my recommendation for you. Take my "unemployables" list. Hire >everyone on it. Try to run a business without going broke. Does your "unemployment list" include Doctor Dimitri Vulis? I'd be greatful to know this. Please, seriously now, and if you have such evidence (that Dimitri is 'lazy', 'stupid' or 'dishonest') send to me if you can... Please provide _evidence_ for his 'fame'. I will have NO MORE slander behind the guy's back. WHAT is going on? I've been harrassed and threatended TOO, just because of defending him or supporting people's rights to a fair trial? WHERE do you live, dude? In Nazi Germany? :-( I have no disagreement with your down-to-earth explanations. But... Sooner or later your 'sheep-leader' Mr. Gilmore will start blocking access to MORE geniouses (other than Voulis, who I think _could_ be one) to your list, and then encryption will be entrusted to morons who can at ANY moment have their coding systems BROKEN!!! Perhaps you misunderstood my objections to your practises. FROM the moment that (for instance) people EVEN like myself receive notices (or threats of) unemployability (as indeed happened in the letter quoted below) it's an alarming sign that the _criteria_ for unemployability are no longer your own decent down-to-earth criteria (honesty, intelligence, trust-worthiness) but very dark and dubious and QUITE FASCIST criteria instead. It's only recently that the type of fascist harrassment like "We'll put you on our U-list", has reached such ABUSE, MISUSE, and ALARMING FREQUENCY. For some people it's become bread and butter and cheese, apparently... I would say you are a decent, honest, fearless man trying to do a job which has a LOT of responsibility, and you may be one among a HUNDRED morons who by adding NAMES in 'unemployability' lists are no fucking different than TRAITORS of your country and Nazi Sympathizer in Western Europe. YOU get back to reality and defend your country from fascism (NOt you personally, because you had the decency and the honesty to reply), the OTHERS must get back to reality. BACK-STABBING and SLANDER (of Dimitri or of anyone) has NOTHING to do with _serious_ issues of 'unemployability'., FURTHERMORE people are NEVER guilty before PROVEN so. Guilt or Innocence is NOT a matter of 'opinion', EITHER of 'mobs' OR of 'leaders', or of would-be psychiatrists roaming the streets looking for 'juvenile kooks', or other types of labels. You are, most probably, a real person with very real responsibilites. In this case, I appreciate you a lot, and hopefully my complaints have reached the right man's ear. With Appreciation and Thanks George A. Stathis (Software Producer and Developer ....'harrassed' -he he- by the following... fascist-scum-letter): *********************************************************************** >Hops: 0 >Received: from you.got.net (root(a)scir-gotnet.znet.net [207.167.86.126]) by prometheus.hol.gr (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA27071 for <hyperlex(a)hol.gr>; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 20:13:15 -0200 (GMT) >Received: from [207.167.93.63] (tcmay.got.net [207.167.93.63]) by you.got.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA22876 for <hyperlex(a)hol.gr>; Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:07:06 -0800 >Posted-Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 20:13:15 -0200 (GMT) >Received-Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 20:13:15 -0200 (GMT) >X-Sender: tcmay(a)mail.got.net >Message-Id: <v03007800aeb506f5ac49(a)[207.167.93.63]> >In-Reply-To: <199611171100.JAA21839(a)prometheus.hol.gr> >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 10:18:36 -0800 >To: "George A. Stathis" <hyperlex(a)hol.gr> >From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay(a)got.net> >Subject: Stathis on "Don't Hire" List >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Content-Length: 1426 >Status: > >At 9:00 AM -0200 11/17/96, George A. Stathis wrote: > >>It is not ethical to send such strong negative _injunctions_ to masses >>of people and also to strangers (the 1900-strong members of the cyberphunks >>list for instance). Because, you may or may not have strong reasons for >>believing you are justified in such invalidation, but more than a 1000 >>people are now _told_ by (self-appointed) "experts" such as yourself what >>and whom to ignore or to believe. (Like sheep led to the slaughter)... > >"Not ethical"? > >But we will do it anyway. Moreover, some of us maintain lists of "Do Not >Hire" persons. Few high tech or Silicon Valley software companies will hire >such folks. > >Congratulations, Stathis, as you are now on such a list. > > > >"The government announcement is disastrous," said Jim Bidzos,.."We warned IBM >that the National Security Agency would try to twist their technology." >[NYT, 1996-10-02] >We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. >---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- >Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, >tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero >W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, >Higher Power: 2^1,257,787-1 | black markets, collapse of governments. >"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway." > > > > >

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Re: Irono-troll (was: Re: The Utility of Privacy)
by frantz＠netcom.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 11:58 PM 11/18/96 -0600, Roy M. Silvernail wrote: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >A troll using nobody(a)huge.cajones.com writes in reply to Sandy Sanfort a >lot of dismissal of past tragedies resulting from privacy violations. >Hir consistent viewpoint seems to be that protecting ones privacy has no >value. Then sie has the temerity to ask > >> BTW, are you operating under your True Name? > >My ironometer is absolutely pegged. Mine did too. It is the most amusing exchange I've seen in a long while. An extremely stable nym arguing for privacy against an anonymous remailer arguing that it isn't important. It makes up for all the trash talk and references to sexual orientation that the juveniles have been posting. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Frantz | The lottery is a tax on | Periwinkle -- Consulting (408)356-8506 | those who can't do math. | 16345 Englewood Ave. frantz(a)netcom.com | - Who 1st said this? | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

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Stolen PC has Credit-Card accounts data
by dwiley＠pcy.mci.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Might wana check out http://www.usatoday.com/money/mds7.htm. It seems to me that things like this are a bigger threat than actual attacks by wire. But I guess Visa was not concerned about their physical security. Oh well.....To bad for the 314,000 people. Gota love security. To bad it sounds like the person that stole the PC had little or no knowladge of what was on the PC. I love this line..... "Melancon said the account information wasn't encoded but was in compressed form and not easy for someone outside the Visa system to read." So I guess uncompress or gunzip might work..:) Dan

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Used to Be
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Used to be that if you wanted dirty words or pictures, you had to go to Paris. Used to be that if you wanted Nazis, you had to go to Deutschland. Used to be that if you wanted to know how to blow things up, you had to go to the US Government Printing Office. Used to be that if you wanted racists, you had to go to Alabama. Used to be that if you wanted commies, you had to go to Moscow (or at least the LSE). Used to be that if you wanted garrulous bores, you had to go to you local watering hole. Used to be that if you wanted child molesters you had to go to your local public school. Used to be that if you wanted a cop you had to go to the nearest doughnut shop. Now you can get all of the above and more from the privacy of your own home on the Internet. DCF

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Re: "Right to Privacy" and Crypto
by Duncan Frissell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Just cleaning up old responses to old messages: Sometimes I will see long articles on subpoenas, contempt of court, and compelled testimony in which no one mentions the fact that the only sanction used is a little bit of imprisonment (two years seems to be the max). That's for things you know. Since software can be made harder to compel than people, a properly configured system (sort of like a spendthrift trust where you can't get at it when compelled) may allow you to dodge sanctions entirely. Once we get better at human programming, it should be possible to make our nervous system a secure system that can't respond when coerced. This can already be done by conscious self programming in individuation. I certainly try to do that. Studies of the effects of North Korean brainwashing on different types of POWs showed a wide variability in susceptibility. Likewise studies of Moonie brainwashing. Political "moderates" with little or no ideology find it hard to resist coercion. "You can't fight something with nothing." In Korea, the prisoners from Turkey, proved impossible to brainwash. They had a mental toughness, a tradition of self posession, and a tolerance for physical discomfort that strengthened their defenses. Most U.S. Moonie recruits were from squishy liberal households (like Barbara Underwood of the Moonie 5 trial). I am not as physically tough as a Turkish soldier but I am certainly tough ideologically. In resisting coercion I use a form of "name magic" to strengthen me and weaken the opposition. If you can control the naming of an act or a relation, you can dominate the situation even if you are in a weaker position. Thus when Moonie recruiters approached me at the No. 10 Monterey bus stop in front of the California Academy of Sciences in Golden Gate Park in SF with their usual "Hi sailor, new in town?" approach ("Are you from out of town? We live with a group of people. Would you like to come to dinner?); I responded "I'm not interested in the Reverend Moon." They left me alone. When confronting con artists, I usually name the general category name of their cons: "Spanish Prisoners," "Shell Game," "Bank Examiners Con," etc. Naming works with the Geheime Staatspolizei as well. "You can't park here." "I'm not parking, I'm standing." "Well you can't stand here either." "OK." "In nature it's kill or be killed. In politics it's define or be defined." -- Szaz DCF

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CAVE Query
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

We've received by black bag a 25-page doc entitled: TR45.3, Appendix A to IS-54, Rev. B Dual-Mode Cellular System Authentication, Message Encryption, Voice Mask Generation, A-Key Verification, and Test Data February, 1992. No Source. It describes the CAVE cryptographic function in detail, and its use to generate a set of cryptovariables for the Cellular Message Encryption Algorithm (CMEA); for generation of 520 bits for the duplex voice privacy masks; and for other tasks. Each page warns that information in the document may be subject to export jurisdiction under ITAR. Does anyone know if this is already available on the Web? TIA of incarceration.

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Re: Rogue Governments Issuing Policy Tokens
by Hal Finney 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: "Timothy C. May" <tcmay(a)got.net> > The problem (for GAK) of "rogue governments" is this: a government such as > Libya or Panama, henceforth to be known as "Rogueitania," issues policy > cards to all of its citizens, and to all those visiting Rogueitania, and > perhaps through the mail to anyone who pays some fee. I don't think this would happen. Some kind of secret information or hardware is going to be needed to create policy tokens. (Otherwise anybody could make one.) That means that HP, and therefore ultimately the U.S. government, is going to have to approve those governments which are allowed to issue such tokens. HP will have to provide them some special hardware or something to make them. The tokens will only be accepted if they have proper secrets inside them. I can't see the U.S. allowing Libya and similar countries to create policy tokens. The whole point of this exercise is to prevent these countries from being able to use strong crypto. So they will certainly not be on the approved list. Does this represent an attempt to establish a de facto U.S. hegemony over the world, where the U.S. government gets to decide which other governments have access to crypto? Not necessarily; other countries will still have the option to use computers made outside the U.S. The fact of international competition will still exist. If the HP initiative does become a widespread standard (which I think is unlikely at this point) then we will see the same sorts of flight towards non U.S. computers that we now see towards non U.S. crypto companies. Why should an Israeli company buy an American computer with a policy chip that is ultimately under the control of the U.S. government when they can get one locally made which has no such restrictions? And of course all this focus on hardware tokens ignores the fact that the alternative of software-only crypto will still be present, both for the domestic market and for the international market where the products don't come from the U.S. This will represent additional competition which the HP proposal must face. For these reasons I don't think the HP idea solves the export problem for U.S. hardware and software makers. And the response by opinion leaders has ranged from ho-hum to negative, despite the self-serving cheerleading by HP management. Companies which try to sell computers with these chips in them risk getting a "big brother inside" (to use Tim's very effective slogan) reputation. I think this initiative is going nowhere. Hal

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Re: [NOISE] aga isn't on cypherpunks... (and I'm glad)
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > That is your last warning, Mike. If you start harasing my postmaster, > I will have your fucking ass in Federal Court before you can blink. > I on the other hand can kick your ass because I am in the UK and I look forward to doing so immensely unless you stop sending shit to the list... Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Re:
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> unsunscribe This stego system must be damn slow seeing as they only ever misspell it in one of two positions, ie. unsuXscriXe, X any letter. Still, i`ll assume it was a cunning plan to trick me into telling him how to unsubscribe. To unsubscribe from the cypherpunks mailing list: Send a message to majordomo(a)toad.com with the *MESSAGE BODY* reading exactly as follows: unsubscribe cypherpunks you(a)your.domain.com Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Re: Taking out the garbage
by Dana W. Albrecht 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I'd like to point out that accepting posts from those who are not technically subscribed to the list is not always a bad idea. In particular, many of us read the list through means other than a direct subscription, be it either a mail-to-news gateway, web server, filtered list, or other such mechanism. As a case in point, while I do read the list, my actual email address is not subscribed to it. :) While I usually don't contribute to the discussion, I hope that the few posts I have made from time to time don't fall into the pollution category. Furthermore, it's often the case that noted cryptographers who are not subscribed to the list occasionally post valuable contributions to it (e.g. Matt Blaze). Non-subscription and pollution are not necessarily related. Dana W. Albrecht dwa(a)corsair.com Lucky Green <shamrock(a)netcom.com> writes: > Beginning Monday, 11/25/96, I will bounce all email from the various > (non-)subscribers polluting this list with garbage back to the > authors. Furthermore, I will attach documents describing basic > Internet rules of conduct to each bounce. > > I would encourage other Cypherpunks to do the same.

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Reputation based hiring (was REQUESTING INFORMATION)
by Clay Olbon II 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 05:12 PM 11/19/96 -0200, George A. Stathis wrote (in part): >Does your "unemployment list" include Doctor Dimitri Vulis? I'd be greatful >to know this. >Please, seriously now, and if you have such evidence (that >Dimitri is 'lazy', 'stupid' or 'dishonest') send to me if you can... I won't comment on who I will or won't hire. I will state that I believe that what a person posts is a relevant issue when it comes time to make a hiring decision. Hiring is based on many factors other than simply technical ability. If someone thinks that another should not be hired for whatever reason, I support their right to hold that belief and even to publicize it. <rant against cypherpunks deleted> I won't follow you into the gutter on this one. That horse has been dead for days (and it is beginning to smell really bad). Clay ******************************************************* Clay Olbon olbon(a)ix.netcom.com engineer, programmer, statistitian, etc. **********************************************tanstaafl

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Monitor Radio Talks Crypto-FUD
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The FUDgine keeps rolling down the track... Looks like Monitor Radio's promoting 56-bit encryption. Reporter's name is Duncan Moon. Quotes a guy quoting Blaze (not mentioning Matt). Calls 56 bit encryption "puny in the future", but not now. The article talks about hardware as giving keylength economic legs, with some logic I can't quite fathom... Cheers, Bob ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson The e$ Home Page: http://www.vmeng.com/rah/

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