September 2001 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Reflections on "High Concept, Low Tech," MartialLaw, the new Paper Gauntlet and the changing meaning of 911.
by Black Unicorn 28 Sep '01

28 Sep '01

----- Original Message ----- From: "Black Unicorn" <unicorn(a)schloss.li> To: "Art Hutchinson" <cartegic(a)mediaone.net>; <dcsb(a)ai.mit.edu>; <cypherpunks(a)minder.net> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 10:59 AM Subject: Re: Reflections on "High Concept, Low Tech," MartialLaw, the new Paper Gauntlet and the changing meaning of 911. > That's your strength. Unfettered optimism and > initiative. That's why, despite many tries, venture capital markets never > … [View More]

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cypherpunks declared a terrorist organisation
by mattd 28 Sep '01

28 Sep '01

Priorities at the moment seem to be 'the base' and any taliban/women/children that get in the way. Then saddam,Then yassar,Then muammar,Then Iran if they so much as blink,Then all the ELF folks they can dragnet with all their new surv powers.This has already started in long island with a teenage activist charged with terrorism. So cypherpunks are low down there with nazi militias,etc...Your well surveilled now,most of you in shock and low low rating threats.Best case scenario;.If the … [View More]

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Re: Reflections on "High Concept, Low Tech," MartialLaw, the new Paper Gauntlet and the changing meaning of 911.
by Black Unicorn 28 Sep '01

28 Sep '01

----- Original Message ----- From: "Art Hutchinson" <cartegic(a)mediaone.net> To: <dcsb(a)ai.mit.edu> <cypherpunks(a)minder.net> Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 6:24 AM Subject: RE: Black Unicorn: Reflections on "High Concept, Low Tech," MartialLaw, the new Paper Gauntlet and the changing meaning of 911. > "Black" wrote: > > I never thought that- even as a foreigner- I would be so disturbed by a > > display of patriotism- or even hyper-patriotism- as I have … [View More]come > > to be by the many American flags waving around as far as the eye can see. > > The rapid transformation of the star-spangled to a war banner of anger, > > vengeance and mourning all at once is unsettling in the extreme). > > Dear Mr.or Ms. Unicorn - I'm sorry you're feeling disturbed and unsettled. I appreciate your concern. > Perhaps if you were involved more directly in a community here - rather > than sniping from afar - you would understand better that the motivations > of many of those flag-wavers are rooted in a (long overdue) reaffirmation > of our bonds and common values, including your right to wax on about what > you don't like about our society. I'm not sure which community you refer to. If you mean DCSB, I'm not a member of that mailing list currently, but I also don't post to it. (Mr. Hettinga forwarded my post without my knowledge). If you mean the United States, I have resided in the US for at least 188 days a year for the last 10 or so years. > If you choose to see it more as myopic, > pitiful, jingoistic, stupid or any number of other things you oh-so-subtly > choose to insult us with, I can't do much about that. The United States is quite myopic. No two ways about it. I'm not sure how an argument can credibly be made otherwise in general and making one today merely affirms your orbit within the new economy reality distortion field (with apologies to Steve Jobs). As for jingoistic, (for those readers who were overly impressed with Mr. Hutchinson's use of vocabulary: "extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy") I have no idea how you could argue otherwise in the eve of the new air and land war brewing in Asia at US behest. As for stupid- I merely submit to you that the average IQ in the United States hovers around 90. (Look it up). There is a reason the phrase "No one ever lost money underestimating the intelligence of the American People" was coined. I don't know if that meets the common definition of "stupid," I for one quite enjoy most Americans I meet, but them I'm fairly selective about the company I keep and I avoid West Virginia. As for your last clause however, it is true that regardless of how intelligent, or non intelligent, the United States is you (or I) can't do much about it. Despite all this I live in the US by choice. Though I find myself reconsidering this situation on a regular basis sometimes, lately I've given it the most serious rethinking I can recall. Bandwagonism is awfully dangerous in an environment of hyper-nationalism, and unless the leaders of the band can properly channel the hype they whip up... well, things get ugly. See, Hitler was smart. He whipped up and used the Brownshirts and then killed most of them or sent them to fight foreign wars. Hard to do such a thing in the U.S. They might just go beating up anyone with fabric on their head. (I heard that a pair of Mexican Americans were killed by a small mob in a West Chicago suburb the other day. Apparently there was chanting of "Go back to Allah" by the peanut gallery). > We appreciate your > concern for our well-being as a nation, and for our cherished freedoms, > but we've managed pretty well for 225 years, even if that involves > lurching back and forth, searching for the right path. Going back through history you might find that 225 years is not an impressive number. As we Europeans are fond of saying "In Europe 100 miles is a long way. In the United States 100 years is a long time." Yes, you are all impassioned, invigorated, alive and very cowboyesque. I find that most charming. All of us 'fur-in-ers' do. Your great for us to find a place park our generations old money in equity investments and see a return better than e.g. the Swiss Franc. That's your strength. Unfettered optimism and initiative. That's why, despite many tries, venture capital markets never work well in the United States. Plus, you have filmmaking down to a cookie cutter science. We love watching your films, and those of us without that much of an attitude don't even mind that they are all in English. (Have you ever enjoyed a firm in German? I didn't think so. The best one ever made, "M," was silent). > When you're > leading the world in the instantiation of such freedoms, such lurching > and searching are par for the course. But I take it as a positive that > you're seeking to steer *our* system, rather than going to work on say, > the Chinese or the Russians. I think anyone who calls the United States the world leader in the instantiation of "such freedoms" in the face of the legislative and administrative initiatives currently on the horizon- and those which have passed in the last 50 years- is being a bit silly. I suppose though that being as close to the problems as you are, your mileage may vary. In actuality, the United States might well be the world leader in removal of freedoms. For while it may be true that the U.S. was at one time the freest country in the world, the dip from that high water mark of democracy to today might also mark the largest loss of freedoms ever. (Perhaps you will want to study this. It would make an interesting thesis). Most other 1st or 2nd world cultures never made it very high on the freedom bar- having effectively come directly from Feudalism to a sort of socialist (or outright communist) form of governance. > > The common theme in most of the proposals I see today revolves around > > identification. > > And the part of the Constitution in which it says you have a right to > not *identify* yourself is... where? According to the Supreme Court, which the last time I checked was the highest authority on such matters, in the 14th and 4th Amendments. See e.g. William Kolender, et al., Petitioner, v. Edward Lawson. (461 U.S. 352), Terry v. Ohio, (392 U.S. 1), Lewis v. City of New Orleans , 415 U.S. 130. > Not to be unreasonably searched > or seized. Yep. Not to incriminate yourself. Yep. Not to have to give > up your firearms. Yep. Not to be coerced into a state religion. Yep. > Not to be told what to say or think. Yep. Not to be subject to secret > trials and hidden evidence. Yep. (And yes, I agree that all of those > are dangers stemming from over-reaction to the tragedy). But my copy > of the Constitution doesn't seem to cover this anonymity thing. Heck, > it doesn't even say anything directly about privacy. Really, you should look some of this up before you spout off. Secret trials and hidden evidence are the order of the day not just in FISA but also in sealed warrants and affidavits, veiled testimony, etc. etc. of normal civil and criminal trials. You clearly don't live in California if you believe the firearms nonsense and you clearly haven't been forced to testify about the location or presence of incriminating papers in a white collar crime investigation if you believe in the power of the prohibition against self-incrimination. As for being told what to say or think? Don't walk around with a bin laden tattoo on, or you're be arrested. Don't think that you hate blacks in the commission of a felony or your guilt of a hate (thought) crime. All of those things you seem to hold dear have been slowly eroded over time, dear friend. The only two exceptions in discussion are the religious bit (which has been mostly fended off to my way of thinking) and identification- which despite all your claims is not a legally mandated thing for anyone to carry around. That you do not know any of this seals my argument from the very beginning. Myopic? Indeed. > Sure, privacy is something we've come to cherish a bit more here than in > say, Lichtenstein - and probably most of the rest of the world. (Test: > How many Europeans know their immediate physical neighbors and their > peculiarities? How many Americans can say the same thing?) Have you ever been to Liechtenstein? Given your implication above I have to think not. Have you banked there? Clearly not. Liechtenstein banks don't insist on performing a credit check before giving you account. (Your money is sufficient). Liechtenstein banks tellers don't fall for petty "social engineering" ploys to discover the identity of depositors. Liechtenstein bankers don't ask you about how your life is, how your kids are, how your business is going or how you voted in the last election. (Questions I have all heard asked of me from bankers in the U.S.). See, these things are not regarded as private in the United States. Refusing to answer such questions is cause for suspicion and scorn. (And from a banker in the U.S. even a "Suspicious Transaction Report"). These questions are simply never asked in Liechtenstein because it is understood that it is none of anyone's business. Further, the Constitution of Liechtenstein directly assures such privacy- more than I can say for the Untied States. The Constitution provides directly for personal liberty and for the inviolability of the home, postal correspondence, and telephone conversations. All of these are only vaguely protected in the United States, and the only penality is that the evidence so gathered cannot be used in a court of law. Jail terms enforce such laws in Liechtenstein. Moreover, statutes like the law on persons and corporations provide for specific codification of privacy of a kind that hasn't ever been dreampt of in the United States. (And thinking back a moment, wasn't it you just a paragraph ago who commented that the United States didn't provide for anonyminity? Suddenly now it's the center of privacy jurisprudence for the world?) > But even > if it's true that a body of common law and tradition exists to support > privacy rights here, there are some sleights of hand in your argument > that deserve more honest consideration: > > 1) privacy and anonymity aren't the same thing In so far as a square and a rectangle aren't the same thing, I may agree. But squares are rectangles. Privacy is a larger namespace than anonymity, but the two are encompassed. Failing to recognize their connection is literary fiction made for the sake of your argument, I suspect. > 2) meatspace and cyberspace are very different places This is relevant how? > > The disadvantage of all this is that all privacy seekers will > > begin to look more and more like felons- or worse, terrorists. > > Be as anonymous as you want on e-mail As long as you're not in the United States, where such anonminity is constantly challenged, and breached. I won't even bother to list the dozens of examples of ISPs giving over such names to e.g., the Scientologists etc. > But when you move in next > door to me, and start loading trucks with fuel and amonimum nitrate, > I'm gonna come by with a nice big smile and ask some neighborly > questions. That's only good sense. It's only good society. (The debate > about whether that's my responsibility as a neighbor, versus the respon- > sibility of the state is, as Mr. Platt suggest, the more relevant dis- > cussion IMHO.) But your right to tell me to buzz off is very different, > and more valid, than your right to conceal your identity *and* tell me > to buzz off. That *combination* of privacy and anonymity will - and > should - raise some curiosity on the part of neighbors and of the state > we've elected to act on our behalf. And there you show your American red, white and blue colors. See, if you moved next to me in Liechtenstein, no such questions would arise. Such questions are not asked. And again, you appear to be short of memory, wasn't it you just a few paragraphs ago making the exact reverse point...? I'm sure I remember that. Oh, yes, here it is: > Sure, privacy is something we've come to cherish a bit more here than in > say, Lichtenstein - and probably most of the rest of the world. (Test: > How many Europeans know their immediate physical neighbors and their > peculiarities? How many Americans can say the same thing?) Hmmmm. I can't read the above other than to suspect that in your view nosey neighbors make good society, or a good society is composed of nosey neighbors. That there is some kind of duty to pry for the "good of the community." I think that pretty clearly defines the differences between us. You see, I don't believe the Stasi fostered the kind of society I believe people should aspire to create. Clearly, your view is different. Also, practice spelling with me: Liechtenstein. > > All of these things are vulnerable to origin fraud, however. > > As all security will always be vulnerable to social engineering > and a desire to get business done (or vice versa). Which is why > good intelligence is more important than ever. To the degree that > metal detectors didn't (and won't) solve the problems we face, the > ability to identify people, and have transparent transations (or at > least transactions that are traceable ex post facto) is about the > *only* approach with any merit (flame suit on). :) I think your donning of the flame suit is the only real argument I need to make against the bunk above, wherein you first claim that security measures are vulnerable to social engineering, but then claim that more security measures will be more effective. > The notion that paper cash is anonymous is a relatively recent and, > one might argue, aberrant phenomenon. Complete fiction. Paper cash is an age old tool for anonymous transactions. Go back to the French revolution and note the sudden drop in letters of credit, retentes and other financial instruments by French royalty in favor of cash, gold, gemstone, silver and other bearer transactions. Go back farther to the Chinese "flying money" systems or to chop systems to see that paper money was used there to avoid confiscatory taxes and provide for anonymous transactions. Again, your cross section of history seems to be all of about 25 years old. As for aberrant? I'll leave this as an exercise for the reader. What percentage of daily transactions in the world are on a cash basis? And in the United States? > In the days of less intercon- > tinental mobility, the corner shopkeeper knew that Mrs. Jones was > buying laxatives, and yet privacy was preserved by virtue of unwritten > community values. Are you sure? Did the corner shopkeeper tell his wife? His lover? How do we know? See, the difference in our respective approaches is that I don't depend on others to safeguard my privacy, be they governmental others, officers others at financial institutions or community member others (nosey neighbors). I don't believe in systems which rely on the "honor" of the human race. I've been around to long to believe in the tooth fairy too. To believe that urge is a predominant one in today's human psyche is to ignore reality. The level of willful ignorance required to perpetuate that belief is astounding to me, and then again, it isn't. > As you point out, the availability of small powerful, > destructive technologies, instant global communications and extreme > mobility does change the game. We should not pretend, in such an > environment that any supposed absolutes about privacy or anonymity > can or should remain the same as they've been for the last 35 years > (and it's probably only been that long, if you think about it). I don't know how to explain this view to others aside the shrugging suggestion that perhaps you feel "American" is the only culture of note to see the light of day in the last 4000 years. (Hint: The Chinese were carving chop blocks for anonymous transactions back in 1200 B.C. when I suspect your (and I know my) ancestors were busy hitting each other over the head with big sticks and living in mud huts. See above. > > What Remains to be Done. > > What can we do to foster privacy and preserve crypto even in the > > face of these potential (but uncertain) changes? > > This closing bit looked promising... until I sensed that where you're > really headed is crypto for its own sake, and privacy as an absolute. Yep. Sorry this disappointed you. I think it says more about your approach than I ever could. Just out of curiosity, which other "rights" or "wants" do you feel shouldn't be absolute? Freedom of speech? Freedom of movement? Freedom of thought? Freedom from search or seizure? > > C. Anonymous communication. > > I'm not sure this needs much explanation. > > Actually, it does. Open uncensored and unfettered communication? > Yes, surely (with a few well-established exceptions like crying fire > in a crowded theatre). Anonymous communication in meatspace? Sure. > Post as many political screeds on the sides of buildings as you want. > And sure, maybe even this kind of exchange here. But when the notion > of anonymity is extended to finance *and* combined with unfettered > global flow of same, this little "leverage" question comes into play, > as we've seen so sadly in the last two weeks. Will this mean lesser > efficiency as we slide back into a book-entry future? Yes. Will that > impede commerce? Yes, somewhat. Will it reduce privacy? Maybe. But > there are more and less virulent forms of that. To say that privacy > is an absolute under all circumstances is indefensible. Depends what country you are in. I understand it's indefensible in the United States right now (though the ACLU might disagree). The rest of the world is somewhat less bull-headed about it all. > Art Hutchinson (yes, that's my real name) > Newton, MA (yes, I really live there) > art(a)cartegic.com (yes, that's my real e-mail address) Foolish boy. [View Less]

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Feds adopt first-ever quality standards for their own work
by Declan McCullagh 28 Sep '01

28 Sep '01

2. OMB to agencies: Get it right before you put it out By Jason Peckenpaugh The Office of Management and Budget Wednesday issued its first-ever guidelines to ensure information delivered by federal agencies-from census data to weather forecasts-meets standards of quality and integrity. The OMB guidelines require agencies to make information quality a performance goal and to develop a review process to ensure the integrity of information before it is released. Agencies must also develop their … [View More]

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Re: Brian West
by mmotyka＠lsil.com 28 Sep '01

28 Sep '01

John Young <jya(a)pipeline.com> wrote : >David, > >Thanks for the Wired pointer. From reading Declan's article it is >not anymore clear now what Brian West did or did not do than >before -- maybe less so now -- because most of the information >about latest developments has come from the feds, and Declan >does not appear to have done thorough checking the feds' version >with other sources, and indeed has put an unfortunate slant in >his story not yet … [View More]

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Ex-UK Home Secretary blames crypto lobbyists for hijackers (2)
by Ken Brown 28 Sep '01

28 Sep '01

I was moved to rant about it on the UKcrypto list & I crosspost it here, if only because I like the sound of my own voice.

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None
by Bradley Woodward 28 Sep '01

28 Sep '01

list ---

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Newsletter 28.09.01
by andre.goldenstein＠aral.net 28 Sep '01

28 Sep '01

------------------------------------------------------------------------------ You are getting this Newsletter because of our existing business relationship, you have subscribed to our newsletter or because of your price requests. For removal instructions see bottom of this newsletter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Sirs, we would like to offer you today as follows -subject is to prior sales-: Siemens S45 … [View More] 1000 pcs DEM 521 Siemens S40 800 pcs DEM 445 Siemens S35 silver edition 1000 pcs DEM 309 Nokia 8210 euro spec, 1000 pcs DEM 428 Nokia 3310 original 500 pcs DEM 265 Nokia 6210 red and black 1000 pcs DEM 439 Ericsson T29 original 1000 pcs DEM 309 Sony Z5 original 700 pcs DEM 506 Sony J5 original 200 pcs DEM 255 Motorola V66 600 pcs DEM 756 Samsung A300 500 pcs DEM 583 Motorola V50 light 300 pcs DEM 409 PSION Oganizers: Psion Revo Plus 16MB english version 3000 pcs DEM 530 min order 1000 pcs Also 966 pcs ORIGINAL english Nokia 6210 manuals for DEM 2!!!!!!!! Siemens SL45 car kit comfort 100 pcs DEM 161 Siemens SL45 voice car kit 50 pcs DEM 289 Siemens S35 car kit comfort 250 pcs DEM 161 FUJI Digital Cameras: FUJI Fine Pix 1300 200 pcs DEM 410 FUJI Fine Pix 2300 200 pcs DEM 551 Fuji Fine Pix 2400z 200 pcs DEM 820 Fuji Fine Pix 40i blue or silver 500 pcs DEM 998 Fuji Fine Pix 4700z 100 pcs DEM 1383 Fuji Fine Pix 6800z 100 pcs DEM 1334 Fuji Fine Pix S1 pro 50 pcs DEM 5767 We also can offer the following Siemens Gigaset DECT phones: Siemens Homestation 200 pcs DEM 169 Siemens Gigaset 3010 micro 1000 pcs DEM 225 THE NEW SIEMENS GIGASET 4000 SERIES IS NOW AVAILABLE!!!!!!!! Please ask for prices. FOB Düsseldorf/Germany, subject is to prior sales. Best regards Andre Goldenstein Aral Mobilfunk Partner KMT GmbH Tel +49 2102 8747252 Fax +49 2102 8747269 mobile +49 174 9200555 =============================================================== If you have received this message in error, or wish not to be included on future mailings please forward your e-mail address of which we have sent this message to. If you receive this message through another e-mail address we have no way of removing you from our list unless you provide the original e-mail address contained in the full header of the e-mail message. If this information has been removed by your server(s) we cannot control this and, again, have no way to remove your e-mail address. Simply reply to this message with "REMOVE" in the subject line. We wish to fully comply with your wishes and all applicable state and federal laws. Your cooperation and patience in this matter are very much appreciated. Thank You! =============================================================== [View Less]

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Re: Brian West
by John Young 28 Sep '01

28 Sep '01

David, Thanks for the Wired pointer. From reading Declan's article it is not anymore clear now what Brian West did or did not do than before -- maybe less so now -- because most of the information about latest developments has come from the feds, and Declan does not appear to have done thorough checking the feds' version with other sources, and indeed has put an unfortunate slant in his story not yet objectively supportable. You must know that the feds often put out misleading press … [View More]

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new European CDR
by Eric Murray 28 Sep '01

28 Sep '01

Thanks to drt(a)un.bewaff.net, there is a new CDR in Europe. Here's the CDR's info, see also http://koeln.ccc.de/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks CCC: Operator: drt(a)un.bewaff.net Subscription: "subscribe [password of your choice]" to cypherpunks-request(a)koeln.ccc.de Unsubscription: "unsubscribe <password>" to cypherpunks-request(a)koeln.ccc.de Help: "help" to to cypherpunks-request(a)koeln.ccc.de Web site: http://koeln.ccc.de/… [View More]

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