August 2001 - cypherpunks-legacy

Thought-A-Day
by Fountain Of Joy 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

The shortest and best way to make your fortune is to let people see clearly that it is in their interests to promote yours. --Jean de la Bruyere ========================================================== Your name has been recommended to receive thoughts of wisdom from Fountain of Joy. These thoughts will be delivered, free of cost, to your desktop,everyday, for an initial evaluation period of 60 days+.We believe that the meaningful insights of these carefully selected thoughts will make your life peaceful,successful & happy in a way you had never imagined before. If you have received this email in error & if you wish to unsubscribe, reply with 'remove' in the subject line or click mailto:amaha@vsnl.net?subject=remove Director Fountain of Joy ==========================================================

1 0

Organized Crime and Cybercrime: Synergies, Trends, and Responses
by Scully＠cipherwar.com 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

http://usinfo.state.gov/cgi-bin/washfile/display.pl?p=/products/washfile/la… Byliner: Internet Is Likely New Target of Crime, Expert Warns (Criminal Organizations find new opportunities in cyberspace) (2850) (The following originally appeared in the Global Issues Aug. 8 Electronic Journal "Arresting Transnational Crime.") Organized Crime and Cybercrime: Synergies, Trends, and Responses By Phil Williams (Professor of International Security Studies, University of Pittsburgh and 2001-2002 Visiting Scientist at CERT/CC, a center of Internet security expertise at Carnegie Mellon University. Williams is also the editor of the journal "Transnational Organized Crime" at http://www.pitt.edu/~rcss/toc.html) The capabilities and opportunities provided by the Internet have transformed many legitimate business activities, augmenting the speed, ease, and range with which transactions can be conducted while also lowering many of the costs. Criminals have also discovered that the Internet can provide new opportunities and multiplier benefits for illicit business. The dark side of the Internet involves not only fraud and theft, pervasive pornography, and pedophile rings, but also drug trafficking and criminal organizations that are more intent upon exploitation than the disruption that is the focus of the hacking community. In the virtual world, as in the real world, most criminal activities are initiated by individuals or small groups and can best be understood as "disorganized crime." Yet there is growing evidence that organized crime groups are exploiting the new opportunities offered by the Internet. Organized crime and cybercrime will never be synonymous. Most organized crime will continue to operate in the real world rather than the cyberworld and most cybercrime will be perpetrated by individuals rather than criminal organizations per se. Nevertheless, the degree of overlap between the two phenomena is likely to increase considerably in the next few years. Organized Crime and Cybercrime Organized crime is primarily about the pursuit of profit and can be understood in Clausewitzian (1) terms as a continuation of business by criminal means. Consequently, just as brick-and-mortar companies move their enterprises on to the Worldwide Web seeking new opportunities for profits, criminal enterprises are doing the same thing. Criminal organizations are not the only players in illicit markets, but they are often the most important, not least because of the added "competitiveness" that is provided by the threat of organized violence. Moreover, criminal organizations tend to be exceptionally good at identifying and seizing opportunities for new illegal enterprises and activities. In this context, the Internet and the continuing growth of electronic commerce offer enormous new prospects for illicit profits. In recent years, there has been a significant increase in the sophistication of organized crime and drug trafficking groups. Colombian drug trafficking organizations, for example, have followed standard business practices for market and product diversification, exploiting new markets in Western Europe and the former Soviet Union. Criminal organizations and drug traffickers have increasingly hired financial specialists to conduct their money laundering transactions. This adds an extra layer of insulation while utilizing legal and financial experts knowledgeable about financial transactions and the availability of safe havens in offshore financial jurisdictions. Similarly, organized crime does not need to develop technical expertise about the Internet. It can hire those in the hacking community who do have the expertise, ensuring through a mixture of rewards and threats that they carry out their assigned tasks effectively and efficiently. Organized crime groups typically have a home base in weak states that provide safe havens from which they conduct their transnational operations. In effect, this provides an added degree of protection against law enforcement and allows them to operate with minimal risk. The inherently transnational nature of the Internet fits perfectly into this model of activity and the effort to maximize profits within an acceptable degree of risk. In the virtual world, there are no borders, a characteristic that makes it very attractive for criminal activity. When authorities attempt to police this virtual world, however, borders and national jurisdictions loom large -- making extensive investigation slow and tedious, at best, and impossible, at worst. The Internet itself provides opportunities for various kinds of theft, whether from online banks or of intellectual property. But it also offers new means of committing old crimes such as fraud, and offers new vulnerabilities relating to communications and data that provide attractive targets for extortion, a crime that has always been a staple of mafia organizations. The anonymity of the Internet also makes it an ideal channel and instrument for many organized crime activities. The notion of a criminal underworld connotes a murkiness or lack of transparency. Secrecy is usually a key part of organized crime strategy and the Internet offers excellent opportunities for its maintenance. Actions can be hidden behind a veil of anonymity that can range from the use of ubiquitous cybercafes to sophisticated efforts to cover Internet routing. Organized crime has always selected particular industries as targets for infiltration and the exercise of illicit influence. In the past, these have included the New York City garbage hauling and construction industries, the construction and toxic waste disposal industries in Italy, and the banking and aluminum industries in Russia. From an organized crime perspective, the Internet and the growth of e-commerce present a new set of targets for infiltration and the exercise of influence -- a prospect that suggests that Internet technology and service firms should be particularly careful about prospective partners and financial supporters. In sum, the synergy between organized crime and the Internet is not only very natural but also one that is likely to flourish and develop even further in the future. The Internet provides both channels and targets for crime and enables them to be exploited for considerable gain with a very low level of risk. For organized crime it is difficult to ask for more. It is critical, therefore, to identify some of the ways in which organized crime is already overlapping with cybercrime. Major Trends in Organized Crime and CyberCrime Organized crime groups are using the Internet for major fraud and theft activities. Perhaps the most notable example of this -- albeit an unsuccessful one -- occurred in October 2000 and concerned the Bank of Sicily. A group of about 20 people, some of whom were connected to mafia families, working with an insider, created a digital clone of the bank's online component. The group then planned to use this to divert about $400 million allocated by the European Union to regional projects in Sicily. The money was to be laundered through various financial institutions, including the Vatican bank and banks in Switzerland and Portugal. The scheme was foiled when one member of the group informed the authorities. Nevertheless, it revealed very clearly that organized crime sees enormous opportunities for profit stemming from the growth of electronic banking and electronic commerce. Indeed, organized crime diversification into various forms of Internet crime is closely related to a second discernible trend -- organized crime involvement in what was once categorized as white-collar crime. The activities of the U.S. mob and Russian criminal organizations on Wall Street fall into this category. During the late 1990s there were numerous cases of criminal organizations manipulating microcap stocks using classic "pump and dump" techniques. While much of this was done through coercion or control of brokerage houses, the Internet was also used to distribute information that artificially inflated the price of the stocks. Among those involved were members of the Bonnano, Genovese, and Colombo crime families as well as Russian immigrant members of the Bor organized crime group. As criminal organizations move away from their more traditional "strong arm" activities and increasingly focus on opportunities for white-collar or financial crime, then Internet-based activities will become even more prevalent. Since Internet-related stock fraud results in a $10,000-million-per-year loss to investors, it offers a particularly lucrative area for organized crime involvement. This is not to suggest that organized crime will change its character. Its inherent willingness to use force and intimidation is well suited to the development of sophisticated cyberextortion schemes that threaten to disrupt information and communication systems and destroy data. The growth of cyberextortion is a third significant trend. Extortion schemes are sometimes bungled, but they can be conducted anonymously and incur only modest risks, while still yielding high pay-offs. Indeed, this might already be a form of crime that is significantly under-reported. Yet it is also one that we can expect to see expand considerably as organized crime moves enthusiastically to exploit the new vulnerabilities that come with increased reliance on networked systems. A fourth trend is the use of what were initially nuisance tools for more overtly criminal activities. Perhaps the most notable example of this occurred in late 2000 when a variation of a virus known as the Love Bug was used in an effort to gain access to account passwords in the Union Bank of Switzerland and at least two banks in the United States. Although this episode received little attention -- and it is not entirely clear who the perpetrators were -- it gives added credence to the theory that organized crime is developing relationships with technically skilled hackers. A fifth trend that we can expect to see is what might be termed jurisdictional arbitrage. Cybercrimes -- certainly when they are linked to organized crime -- will increasingly be initiated from jurisdictions that have few if any laws directed against cybercrime and/or little capacity to enforce laws against cybercrime. This was one of the lessons of the Love Bug virus. Although the virus spread worldwide and cost business thousands of millions of dollars, when FBI agents succeeded in identifying the perpetrator, a student in the Philippines, they also found that there were no laws under which he could be prosecuted. The Philippines acted soon thereafter to pass prohibitions on cybercrimes, and other countries have followed. Still, jurisdictional voids remain, allowing criminals and hackers to operate with impunity. Indeed, it is possible that some jurisdictions will increasingly seek to exploit a permissive attitude to attract business, creating information safe havens (paralleling offshore tax havens and bank secrecy jurisdictions) that make it difficult for law enforcement to follow information trails, and offering insulated cyber-business operations from which illicit businesses can operate with a minimum of interference. A sixth trend is that the Internet is increasingly likely to be used for money laundering. As the Internet becomes the medium through which more and more international trade takes place, the opportunities for laundering money through over-invoicing and under-invoicing are likely to grow. Online auctions offer similar opportunities to move money through apparently legitimate purchases, but paying much more than goods are worth. Online gambling also makes it possible to move money -- especially to offshore financial centers in the Caribbean. Moreover, as e-money and electronic banking become more widespread the opportunities to conceal the movement of the proceeds of crime in an increasing pool of illegal transactions are also likely to grow. A seventh trend involves growing network connections between hackers or small-time criminals and organized crime. In September 1999, for example, two members of a U.S.-based group known as the "Phonemasters" were convicted and jailed for their penetration of the computer systems of the telecommunications companies MCI, Sprint, AT&T, and Equifax. One of those convicted, Calvin Cantrell, had downloaded thousands of Sprint calling card numbers. They were sold to a Canadian, passed back through the United States, resold to another individual in Switzerland, and finally the calling cards ended up in the hands of organized crime groups in Italy. Network connections between the two kinds of groups are likely to deepen and widen. In addition, of course, organized crime groups use the Internet for communications (usually encrypted) and for any other purposes when they see it as useful and profitable. Indeed, organized crime is proving as flexible and adaptable in its exploitation of cyberopportunities as it is in any other opportunities for illegal activity. The implications are far-reaching and require a response from government that is strategic, multi-level, multilateral, and transnational in nature. Responses to the Organized Crime-CyberCrime Synergy The response to the growing overlap between organized crime and cybercrime requires a truly comprehensive strategy. There are precedents and models for this that can be particularly helpful, even allowing for the need to balance law enforcement and national security concerns against such considerations as personal privacy. The key principles that have guided the international community's responses to transnational organized crime and money laundering can serve as one good model. The Financial Action Task Force (FATF), a body set up by the G-7, has attempted to create norms and standards for governments and financial institutions to follow in the development of laws, regulations, and enforcement mechanisms at the national level. Although criticisms can be made of the FATF, in 2000 it launched an effective "name and shame" campaign that identified 15 "non-cooperative" jurisdictions whose efforts to combat money laundering were grossly inadequate. In some cases, the results were remarkable, leading to much more stringent anti-money laundering programs and far greater transparency of financial activities. While the FATF's campaign was the culmination of a 10-year effort, it nevertheless provides an approach that could usefully be emulated by the international community as it moves to combat cybercrime. The Council of Europe Convention on Cybercrime, largely supported by the United States, is the first major step in this direction and can be understood as the beginning of the process of setting norms and standards that national governments ultimately will be expected to meet in their legislative, regulatory, and enforcement efforts. Underlying the convention approach is a fundamental recognition of the need to harmonize national laws. In recent years, international cooperation in law enforcement has been achieved through a series of extradition and mutual legal assistance treaties (MLATs) that allow governments to share information and evidence with each other. For MLATs and extradition treaties to go into effect, however, there is usually a requirement of dual criminality (i.e. the crime involved must be designated as a crime in both jurisdictions). In other words, international cooperation is enormously facilitated by convergence of what is criminalized in national jurisdictions. Furthermore, as pointed out by Ernesto Savona, head of the Transcrime Research Center in Trento, Italy, the imposition of similar laws in various countries both spreads the risks that criminal organizations have to confront and goes some way towards equalizing the risks across jurisdictions. In effect, the more widespread the laws, the fewer the safe havens from which organized crime-controlled hackers (or indeed individual hackers) can operate with impunity Harmonization is necessary for both substantive and procedural laws. All countries have to reappraise and revise rules of evidence, search and seizure, electronic eavesdropping, and the like to cover digitized information, modern computer and communication systems, and the global nature of the Internet. Greater coordination of procedural laws, therefore, would facilitate cooperation in investigations that cover multiple jurisdictions. In addition to appropriate laws, it is also important that governments and law enforcement agencies develop the capacity for implementation of these laws. This requires the development of expertise in the area of cybercrime as well as effective information sharing across agencies within a country and across national borders. Moreover, this sharing has to go beyond traditional law enforcement bodies to include national security and intelligence agencies. It is also essential to create specialized law enforcement units to deal with cybercrime issues at the national level. Such units can also provide a basis for both formal international cooperation and informal cooperation based on transnational networks of trust among law enforcement agents. Ad hoc cooperation and multinational task forces can both prove particularly useful -- and there are already cases where international cooperation has been very effective. Indeed, successful cooperation can breed emulation and further success. The other important component of a strategy to combat cybercrime is partnership between governments and industry, especially the information technology sector. Once again, there are precedents. In recent years, the major oil companies, although very competitive with one another, established information sharing arrangements and worked very closely with law enforcement to minimize infiltration by organized crime figures and criminal companies. Government-private sector cooperation of this kind is not always easy but it is clear that a degree of mutual trust can make a difference. For cooperation to be extended, law enforcement agencies have to exercise considerable care and discretion not to expose company vulnerabilities, while the companies themselves have to be willing to report any criminal activities directed against their information and communication systems. Even if considerable progress is made in all these areas, organized crime and cybercrime will continue to flourish. If steps are made in these directions, however, then there is at least some chance that cybercrime can be contained within acceptable bounds, that it will not undermine confidence in electronic commerce, that it will not so enrich organized crime groups that they can further corrupt and threaten governments, and that the big winner from the growth of the Internet will not be organized crime. (1) Refers to the German philosopher Karl Von Clausewitz, well-known for the maxim "war is the continuation of policy by other means." (The Washington File is a product of the Office of International Information Programs, U.S. Department of State. Web site: usinfo.state.gov) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message -----

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Organized Crime and Cybercrime: Synergies, Trends, and Responses
by Scully＠cipherwar.com 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

http://usinfo.state.gov/cgi-bin/washfile/display.pl?p=/products/washfile/la… Byliner: Internet Is Likely New Target of Crime, Expert Warns (Criminal Organizations find new opportunities in cyberspace) (2850) (The following originally appeared in the Global Issues Aug. 8 Electronic Journal "Arresting Transnational Crime.") Organized Crime and Cybercrime: Synergies, Trends, and Responses By Phil Williams (Professor of International Security Studies, University of Pittsburgh and 2001-2002 Visiting Scientist at CERT/CC, a center of Internet security expertise at Carnegie Mellon University. Williams is also the editor of the journal "Transnational Organized Crime" at http://www.pitt.edu/~rcss/toc.html) The capabilities and opportunities provided by the Internet have transformed many legitimate business activities, augmenting the speed, ease, and range with which transactions can be conducted while also lowering many of the costs. Criminals have also discovered that the Internet can provide new opportunities and multiplier benefits for illicit business. The dark side of the Internet involves not only fraud and theft, pervasive pornography, and pedophile rings, but also drug trafficking and criminal organizations that are more intent upon exploitation than the disruption that is the focus of the hacking community. In the virtual world, as in the real world, most criminal activities are initiated by individuals or small groups and can best be understood as "disorganized crime." Yet there is growing evidence that organized crime groups are exploiting the new opportunities offered by the Internet. Organized crime and cybercrime will never be synonymous. Most organized crime will continue to operate in the real world rather than the cyberworld and most cybercrime will be perpetrated by individuals rather than criminal organizations per se. Nevertheless, the degree of overlap between the two phenomena is likely to increase considerably in the next few years. Organized Crime and Cybercrime Organized crime is primarily about the pursuit of profit and can be understood in Clausewitzian (1) terms as a continuation of business by criminal means. Consequently, just as brick-and-mortar companies move their enterprises on to the Worldwide Web seeking new opportunities for profits, criminal enterprises are doing the same thing. Criminal organizations are not the only players in illicit markets, but they are often the most important, not least because of the added "competitiveness" that is provided by the threat of organized violence. Moreover, criminal organizations tend to be exceptionally good at identifying and seizing opportunities for new illegal enterprises and activities. In this context, the Internet and the continuing growth of electronic commerce offer enormous new prospects for illicit profits. In recent years, there has been a significant increase in the sophistication of organized crime and drug trafficking groups. Colombian drug trafficking organizations, for example, have followed standard business practices for market and product diversification, exploiting new markets in Western Europe and the former Soviet Union. Criminal organizations and drug traffickers have increasingly hired financial specialists to conduct their money laundering transactions. This adds an extra layer of insulation while utilizing legal and financial experts knowledgeable about financial transactions and the availability of safe havens in offshore financial jurisdictions. Similarly, organized crime does not need to develop technical expertise about the Internet. It can hire those in the hacking community who do have the expertise, ensuring through a mixture of rewards and threats that they carry out their assigned tasks effectively and efficiently. Organized crime groups typically have a home base in weak states that provide safe havens from which they conduct their transnational operations. In effect, this provides an added degree of protection against law enforcement and allows them to operate with minimal risk. The inherently transnational nature of the Internet fits perfectly into this model of activity and the effort to maximize profits within an acceptable degree of risk. In the virtual world, there are no borders, a characteristic that makes it very attractive for criminal activity. When authorities attempt to police this virtual world, however, borders and national jurisdictions loom large -- making extensive investigation slow and tedious, at best, and impossible, at worst. The Internet itself provides opportunities for various kinds of theft, whether from online banks or of intellectual property. But it also offers new means of committing old crimes such as fraud, and offers new vulnerabilities relating to communications and data that provide attractive targets for extortion, a crime that has always been a staple of mafia organizations. The anonymity of the Internet also makes it an ideal channel and instrument for many organized crime activities. The notion of a criminal underworld connotes a murkiness or lack of transparency. Secrecy is usually a key part of organized crime strategy and the Internet offers excellent opportunities for its maintenance. Actions can be hidden behind a veil of anonymity that can range from the use of ubiquitous cybercafes to sophisticated efforts to cover Internet routing. Organized crime has always selected particular industries as targets for infiltration and the exercise of illicit influence. In the past, these have included the New York City garbage hauling and construction industries, the construction and toxic waste disposal industries in Italy, and the banking and aluminum industries in Russia. From an organized crime perspective, the Internet and the growth of e-commerce present a new set of targets for infiltration and the exercise of influence -- a prospect that suggests that Internet technology and service firms should be particularly careful about prospective partners and financial supporters. In sum, the synergy between organized crime and the Internet is not only very natural but also one that is likely to flourish and develop even further in the future. The Internet provides both channels and targets for crime and enables them to be exploited for considerable gain with a very low level of risk. For organized crime it is difficult to ask for more. It is critical, therefore, to identify some of the ways in which organized crime is already overlapping with cybercrime. Major Trends in Organized Crime and CyberCrime Organized crime groups are using the Internet for major fraud and theft activities. Perhaps the most notable example of this -- albeit an unsuccessful one -- occurred in October 2000 and concerned the Bank of Sicily. A group of about 20 people, some of whom were connected to mafia families, working with an insider, created a digital clone of the bank's online component. The group then planned to use this to divert about $400 million allocated by the European Union to regional projects in Sicily. The money was to be laundered through various financial institutions, including the Vatican bank and banks in Switzerland and Portugal. The scheme was foiled when one member of the group informed the authorities. Nevertheless, it revealed very clearly that organized crime sees enormous opportunities for profit stemming from the growth of electronic banking and electronic commerce. Indeed, organized crime diversification into various forms of Internet crime is closely related to a second discernible trend -- organized crime involvement in what was once categorized as white-collar crime. The activities of the U.S. mob and Russian criminal organizations on Wall Street fall into this category. During the late 1990s there were numerous cases of criminal organizations manipulating microcap stocks using classic "pump and dump" techniques. While much of this was done through coercion or control of brokerage houses, the Internet was also used to distribute information that artificially inflated the price of the stocks. Among those involved were members of the Bonnano, Genovese, and Colombo crime families as well as Russian immigrant members of the Bor organized crime group. As criminal organizations move away from their more traditional "strong arm" activities and increasingly focus on opportunities for white-collar or financial crime, then Internet-based activities will become even more prevalent. Since Internet-related stock fraud results in a $10,000-million-per-year loss to investors, it offers a particularly lucrative area for organized crime involvement. This is not to suggest that organized crime will change its character. Its inherent willingness to use force and intimidation is well suited to the development of sophisticated cyberextortion schemes that threaten to disrupt information and communication systems and destroy data. The growth of cyberextortion is a third significant trend. Extortion schemes are sometimes bungled, but they can be conducted anonymously and incur only modest risks, while still yielding high pay-offs. Indeed, this might already be a form of crime that is significantly under-reported. Yet it is also one that we can expect to see expand considerably as organized crime moves enthusiastically to exploit the new vulnerabilities that come with increased reliance on networked systems. A fourth trend is the use of what were initially nuisance tools for more overtly criminal activities. Perhaps the most notable example of this occurred in late 2000 when a variation of a virus known as the Love Bug was used in an effort to gain access to account passwords in the Union Bank of Switzerland and at least two banks in the United States. Although this episode received little attention -- and it is not entirely clear who the perpetrators were -- it gives added credence to the theory that organized crime is developing relationships with technically skilled hackers. A fifth trend that we can expect to see is what might be termed jurisdictional arbitrage. Cybercrimes -- certainly when they are linked to organized crime -- will increasingly be initiated from jurisdictions that have few if any laws directed against cybercrime and/or little capacity to enforce laws against cybercrime. This was one of the lessons of the Love Bug virus. Although the virus spread worldwide and cost business thousands of millions of dollars, when FBI agents succeeded in identifying the perpetrator, a student in the Philippines, they also found that there were no laws under which he could be prosecuted. The Philippines acted soon thereafter to pass prohibitions on cybercrimes, and other countries have followed. Still, jurisdictional voids remain, allowing criminals and hackers to operate with impunity. Indeed, it is possible that some jurisdictions will increasingly seek to exploit a permissive attitude to attract business, creating information safe havens (paralleling offshore tax havens and bank secrecy jurisdictions) that make it difficult for law enforcement to follow information trails, and offering insulated cyber-business operations from which illicit businesses can operate with a minimum of interference. A sixth trend is that the Internet is increasingly likely to be used for money laundering. As the Internet becomes the medium through which more and more international trade takes place, the opportunities for laundering money through over-invoicing and under-invoicing are likely to grow. Online auctions offer similar opportunities to move money through apparently legitimate purchases, but paying much more than goods are worth. Online gambling also makes it possible to move money -- especially to offshore financial centers in the Caribbean. Moreover, as e-money and electronic banking become more widespread the opportunities to conceal the movement of the proceeds of crime in an increasing pool of illegal transactions are also likely to grow. A seventh trend involves growing network connections between hackers or small-time criminals and organized crime. In September 1999, for example, two members of a U.S.-based group known as the "Phonemasters" were convicted and jailed for their penetration of the computer systems of the telecommunications companies MCI, Sprint, AT&T, and Equifax. One of those convicted, Calvin Cantrell, had downloaded thousands of Sprint calling card numbers. They were sold to a Canadian, passed back through the United States, resold to another individual in Switzerland, and finally the calling cards ended up in the hands of organized crime groups in Italy. Network connections between the two kinds of groups are likely to deepen and widen. In addition, of course, organized crime groups use the Internet for communications (usually encrypted) and for any other purposes when they see it as useful and profitable. Indeed, organized crime is proving as flexible and adaptable in its exploitation of cyberopportunities as it is in any other opportunities for illegal activity. The implications are far-reaching and require a response from government that is strategic, multi-level, multilateral, and transnational in nature. Responses to the Organized Crime-CyberCrime Synergy The response to the growing overlap between organized crime and cybercrime requires a truly comprehensive strategy. There are precedents and models for this that can be particularly helpful, even allowing for the need to balance law enforcement and national security concerns against such considerations as personal privacy. The key principles that have guided the international community's responses to transnational organized crime and money laundering can serve as one good model. The Financial Action Task Force (FATF), a body set up by the G-7, has attempted to create norms and standards for governments and financial institutions to follow in the development of laws, regulations, and enforcement mechanisms at the national level. Although criticisms can be made of the FATF, in 2000 it launched an effective "name and shame" campaign that identified 15 "non-cooperative" jurisdictions whose efforts to combat money laundering were grossly inadequate. In some cases, the results were remarkable, leading to much more stringent anti-money laundering programs and far greater transparency of financial activities. While the FATF's campaign was the culmination of a 10-year effort, it nevertheless provides an approach that could usefully be emulated by the international community as it moves to combat cybercrime. The Council of Europe Convention on Cybercrime, largely supported by the United States, is the first major step in this direction and can be understood as the beginning of the process of setting norms and standards that national governments ultimately will be expected to meet in their legislative, regulatory, and enforcement efforts. Underlying the convention approach is a fundamental recognition of the need to harmonize national laws. In recent years, international cooperation in law enforcement has been achieved through a series of extradition and mutual legal assistance treaties (MLATs) that allow governments to share information and evidence with each other. For MLATs and extradition treaties to go into effect, however, there is usually a requirement of dual criminality (i.e. the crime involved must be designated as a crime in both jurisdictions). In other words, international cooperation is enormously facilitated by convergence of what is criminalized in national jurisdictions. Furthermore, as pointed out by Ernesto Savona, head of the Transcrime Research Center in Trento, Italy, the imposition of similar laws in various countries both spreads the risks that criminal organizations have to confront and goes some way towards equalizing the risks across jurisdictions. In effect, the more widespread the laws, the fewer the safe havens from which organized crime-controlled hackers (or indeed individual hackers) can operate with impunity Harmonization is necessary for both substantive and procedural laws. All countries have to reappraise and revise rules of evidence, search and seizure, electronic eavesdropping, and the like to cover digitized information, modern computer and communication systems, and the global nature of the Internet. Greater coordination of procedural laws, therefore, would facilitate cooperation in investigations that cover multiple jurisdictions. In addition to appropriate laws, it is also important that governments and law enforcement agencies develop the capacity for implementation of these laws. This requires the development of expertise in the area of cybercrime as well as effective information sharing across agencies within a country and across national borders. Moreover, this sharing has to go beyond traditional law enforcement bodies to include national security and intelligence agencies. It is also essential to create specialized law enforcement units to deal with cybercrime issues at the national level. Such units can also provide a basis for both formal international cooperation and informal cooperation based on transnational networks of trust among law enforcement agents. Ad hoc cooperation and multinational task forces can both prove particularly useful -- and there are already cases where international cooperation has been very effective. Indeed, successful cooperation can breed emulation and further success. The other important component of a strategy to combat cybercrime is partnership between governments and industry, especially the information technology sector. Once again, there are precedents. In recent years, the major oil companies, although very competitive with one another, established information sharing arrangements and worked very closely with law enforcement to minimize infiltration by organized crime figures and criminal companies. Government-private sector cooperation of this kind is not always easy but it is clear that a degree of mutual trust can make a difference. For cooperation to be extended, law enforcement agencies have to exercise considerable care and discretion not to expose company vulnerabilities, while the companies themselves have to be willing to report any criminal activities directed against their information and communication systems. Even if considerable progress is made in all these areas, organized crime and cybercrime will continue to flourish. If steps are made in these directions, however, then there is at least some chance that cybercrime can be contained within acceptable bounds, that it will not undermine confidence in electronic commerce, that it will not so enrich organized crime groups that they can further corrupt and threaten governments, and that the big winner from the growth of the Internet will not be organized crime. (1) Refers to the German philosopher Karl Von Clausewitz, well-known for the maxim "war is the continuation of policy by other means." (The Washington File is a product of the Office of International Information Programs, U.S. Department of State. Web site: usinfo.state.gov) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list You may redistribute this message freely if you include this notice. Declan McCullagh's photographs are at http://www.mccullagh.org/ To subscribe to Politech: http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- End forwarded message -----

1 0

Re: Remailer logs
by lcs Mixmaster Remailer 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

Black Unicorn writes very persuasively about the problems a remailer operator could face in court: > Mr. Smith, do you charge for users of the remailer? > So is it safe to say that you don't intent to profit from this service? > Then your motivation for running the service is... to help people destroy > evidence then? > Ok, sorry your honor, withdrawn. > Then your motivation for running this service is definitely not for profit? > You're a good citizen, as it were? > Yes, of course you are. > You destroy all logs about users of the service, isn't that correct? > Excuse me, you "fail to record" any information about users of the service? > I'm confused. Someone sends an electronic mail to your service, it has a > "reply to" or a "from" header on it when it arrives, correct? > But before sending it on to its destination, you destroy this information, > correct? > Excuse me. Delete it. Whatever. I see. > So people would use this service to mask their identity, if they didn't want > to be responsible for the content they are sending perhaps? > And someone committing a crime, something untraceable, they would be able to > hide behind your service wouldn't they? > But that is a risk of running the service yes? > What about, say a drug deal? > A death threat? > Something libelous? > So wouldn't it be safe to say that a reasonable person might expect some abuse > of such a service by criminals? > Isn't it true that you have an abuse(a)blah.net address to deal with this > precise eventuality? > So you expected there might be legal problems? > blah blah blah Most of the replies have missed or evaded his points, relying on classic stubborn cypherpunk libertarianism. "I don't got to justify nuttin' I do, screw you officer." Or the whiny, "But Microsoft does it, why can't I???" BU points out that you DO have to justify what you do, like it or not, and that Microsoft DID get in trouble for these practices. The point which has not been made clearly is that despite the legal arguments against remailers which BU raises above, there are strong legal arguments in favor of remailers as well. It is these positive arguments which we must rely on in a legal context. Head in the sand libertarianism won't help. Remailers exist to provide for the possibility of anonymous communication in a medium where it is otherwise impossible. They are an attempt to extend the status quo for other forms of communication into electronic mail. The do not introduce new challenges or threats into society. Rather, they preserve existing capabilities as we move into a new medium of communication. Due to its technical nature, electronic mail is inherently traceable. Every step in the communication involves recording where the message came from. This allows the mail to be traced back to its source. Remailers exist solely to remove this traceability and to therefore provide for anonymous communication in the medium of electronic mail. Anonymous communication exists and has always existed in many other forms. Postal mail, physical delivery of anonymous notes, posting handbills, passing out leaflets, all have been traditional methods for propagating information anonymously. Every one of the bad consequences of anonymity listed above exists with these other forms of anonymous communications. Terrorists, blackmailers, criminals of all stripes use the postal service. Anonymous publication of unpopular political arguments has occured since the founding days of this country. Anonymity is nothing new in the world. Courts have consistently declared that anonymous speech is a protected right. See for example the 1995 U.S. Supreme Court case McIntyre vs Ohio, http://www.eff.org/Legal/Cases/mcintyre_v_ohio.decision, which relies on Talley v. California, 362 U. S. 60 (1960). By providing anonymity in a medium where it would otherwise not be present, remailers join technologies which "have played an important role in the progress of mankind" (quoting the Talley decision). Any legal action against a remailer would attract interest from scholars and political groups all over the net. First amendment experts, free speech experts, civil liberties groups, all will support the remailer with arguments and briefs. Chances are that financial support will be available as well. BU's "gray haired Reagan appointee" judge is going to be operating in a fishbowl of media attention and legal advice. He needs to be very careful to stick to the legalities knowing that any decision against the remailer will be appealed and backed up by the many interest groups who will be watching the case. These are the kinds of issues which any defense of a remailer will need to rely on in the courtroom. Cypherpunk attitudes of "I don't need to keep no stinkin' logs if I don't feel like it," won't go far. It's a legal and political issue and that is how the battle must be fought.

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NRC asks for reviewers for forthcoming Internet porn report
by Declan McCullagh 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

----- Forwarded message from Declan McCullagh <declan(a)well.com> -----

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Not�cias Jur�dicas do Espa�o Vital de 14/08/2001
by "Espa�o Vital & Mpsoft" <Espa�o Vital & Mpsoft 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

O Espa�o Vital - p�gina do Jornal do Com�rcio especializada em casos judiciais - al�m de sua forma gr�fica tradicional (publica��o �s 3as. e 6as.feiras) est� tendo atualiza��o di�ria na Internet. Acessando www.EspacoVital.com (sem br), ou lendo o Jornal do Com�rcio, Voc� toma contato com algumas das mais importantes decis�es da Justi�a. E clicando na base de dados, pode dispor de elementos (n�mero do processo, por exemplo) que lhe podem auxiliar em sua pesquisa de jurisprud�ncia. Nesta semana, por exemplo, estamos disponibilizando parte nuclear da senten�a do juiz federal de Curitiba que encontrou uma inteligente f�rmula para baixar as presta��es habitacionais. No Espa�o Vital do Jornal do Com�rcio (cujo texto desta 3a. feira, 14 de agosto) lhe estamos enviando, aqui, adiante, por via virtual, h� uma publica��o de peculiar interesse dos advogados, porque trata de seus honor�rios. Tamb�m o registro de um lament�vel assalto contra o escrit�rio do colega Fernando Magnus, em Po! rt! o Alegre. Para agregar o Espa�o Vital aos seus favoritos, clique no link adiante: Atenciosamente, MPSoft Sistemas Administrador do Site www.EspacoVital.com Not�cias desta 3a.feira no Espa�o Vital: Indeniza��o para pedreiro preso abusivamente por PMs �Clientes� assaltantes Interessante precedente sobre honor�rios Tr�s decis�es contra a atua��o do fisco estadual Caso n�o queira mais receber este informativo, por gentileza, simplesmente RESPONDA (REPLY) com ASSUNTO: REMOVER. Gratos.

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REAL MONEY -UVVT
by moremoney＠freenet.co.uk 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

Subject:REAL MONEY Dear Friends & Future Millionaire: AS SEEN ON NATIONAL TV: Making over half million dollars every 4 to 5 months from your home for an investment of only $25 U.S. Dollars expense one time THANK'S TO THE COMPUTER AGE AND THE INTERNET ! ================================================== BE A MILLIONAIRE LIKE OTHERS WITHIN A YEAR!!! Before you say ''Bull'', please read the following. This is the letter you have been hearing about on the news lately. Due to the popularity of this letter on the Internet, a national weekly news program recently devoted an entire show to the investigation of this program described below, to see if it really can make people money. The show also investigated whether or not the program was legal. Their findings proved once and for all that there are ''absolutely NO Laws prohibiting the participation in the program and if people can -follow the simple instructions, they are bound to make some mega bucks with only $25 out of pocket cost''. DUE TO THE RECENT INCREASE OF POPULARITY & RESPECT THIS PROGRAM HAS ATTAINED, IT IS CURRENTLY WORKING BETTER THAN EVER. This is what one had to say: ''Thanks to this profitable opportunity. I was approached many times before but each time I passed on it. I am >so gladI finally joined just to see what one could expect in return for the minimal effort and money required. To my astonishment, I received total $ 610,470.00 in 21 weeks, with money still coming in." Pam Hedland, Fort Lee, New Jersey. =================================================== Here is another testimonial: "This program has been around for a long time but I never believed in it. But one day when I received this again in the mail I decided to gamble my $25 on it. I followed the simple instructions and walaa ..... 3 weeks later the money started to come in. First month I only made $240.00 but the next 2 months after that I made a total of $290,000.00. So far, in the past 8 months by re-entering the program, I have made over $710,000.00 and I am playing it again. The key to success in this program is to follow the simple steps and NOT change anything.'' More testimonials later but first, ===== PRINT THIS NOW FOR YOUR FUTUREREFERENCE ====== $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ If you would like to make at least $500,000 every 4 to 5 months easily and comfortably, please read the following...THEN READ IT AGAIN and AGAIN!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $ FOLLOW THE SIMPLE INSTRUCTION BELOW AND YOUR FINANCIAL DREAMS WILL COME TRUE, GUARANTEED! INSTRUCTIONS: ====Order all 5 reports shown on the list below ===== For each report, send $5 CASH, THE NAME & NUMBER OF THE REPORT YOU ARE ORDERING and YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS to the person whose name appears ON THAT LIST next to the report. MAKE SURE YOUR RETURN ADDRESS IS ON YOUR ENVELOPE TOP LEFT CORNER in case of any mail problems. === When you place your order, make sure you order each of the 5 reports. You will need all 5 reports so that you can save them on your computer and resell them. YOUR TOTAL COST $5 X 5=$25.00. Within a few days you will receive, vie e-mail, each of the 5 reports from these 5 different individuals. Save them on your computer so they will be accessible for you to send to the 1,000's of people who will order them from you. Also make a floppy of these reports and keep it on your desk in case something happen to your computer. IMPORTANT - DO NOT alter the names of the people who are listed next to each report, or their sequence on the list, in any way other than what is instructed below in step '' 1 through 6 '' or you will loose out on majority of your profits. Once you understand the way this works, you will also see how it does not work if you change it. Remember, this method has been tested, and if you alter, it will NOT work !!! People have tried to put their friends/relatives names on all five thinking they could get all the money. But it does not work this way. Believe us, we all have tried to be greedy and then nothing happened. So Do Not try to change anything other than what is instructed. Because if you do, it will not work for you. Remember, honesty reaps the reward!!! 1.... After you have ordered all 5 reports, take this advertisement and REMOVE the name & address of the person in REPORT # 5. This person has made it through the cycle and is no doubt counting their fortune. 2.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 4 down TO REPORT # 5. 3.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 3 down TO REPORT # 4. 4.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 2 down TO REPORT # 3. 5.... Move the name & address in REPORT # 1 down TO REPORT # 2 6.... Insert YOUR name & address in the REPORT # 1 Position. PLEASE MAKE SURE you copy every name & address ACCURATELY! ========================================================= = **** Take this entire letter, with the modified list of names, and save it on your computer. DO NOT MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES. Save this on a disk as well just in case if you loose any data. To assist you with marketing your business on the internet, the 5 reports you purchase will provide you with invaluable marketing information which includes how to send bulk e-mails legally, where to find thousands of free classified ads and much more. There are 2 Primary methods to get this venture going: METHOD # 1: BY SENDING BULK E-MAIL LEGALLY ========================================================= = Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and we will assume You and those involved send out only 5,000 e-mails each. Let's also assume that the mailing receive only a 0.2% response (the response could be much better but lets just say it is only 0.2%. Also many people will send out hundreds of thousands e-mails instead of only 5,000 each). Continuing with this example, you send out only 5,000 e-mails. With a 0.2% response, that is only 10 orders for report # 1. Those 10 people responded by sending out 5,000 e-mail each for a total of 50,000. Out of those 50,000 e-mails only 0.2% responded with orders. That's=100 people responded and ordered Report # 2 . Those 100 people mail out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 500,000 e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 1000 orders for Report # 3. Those 1000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 5 million e-mails sent out. The 0.2% response to that is 10,000 orders for Report # 4. Those 10,000 people send out 5,000 e-mails each for a total of 50,000,000 (50 million) e-mails. The 0.2% response to that is 100,000 orders for Report # 5 THAT'S 100,000 ORDERS TIMES $5 EACH=$500,000.00 (half million). Your total income in this example is: 1..... $50 + 2..... $500 + 3..... $5,000 + 4 .. $50,000 + 5..... $500,000 ........ Grand Total=$555,550.00 NUMBERS DO NOT LIE. GET A PENCIL & PAPER AND FIGUREOUT THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSES AND NO MATTER HOW YOU CALCULATE IT, YOU WILL STILL MAKE A LOT OF MONEY ! ========================================================= REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING ONLY 10 PEOPLE ORDERING OUT OF 5,000 YOU MAILED TO. Dare to think for a moment what would happen if everyone or half or even one 4th of those people mailed 100,000e-mails each or more? There are over 150 million people on the Internet worldwide and counting. Believe me, many people will do just that, and more! METHOD # 2 : BY PLACING FREE ADS ON THE INTERNET ======================================================= Advertising on the net is very very inexpensive and there are hundreds of FREE places to advertise. Placing a lot of free ads on the Internet will easily get a larger response. We strongly suggest you start with Method # 1 and dd METHOD # 2 as you go along. For every $5 you receive, all you must do is e-mail them the Report they ordered. That's it. Always provide same day service on all orders. This will guarantee that the e-mail they send out, with your name and address on it, will be prompt because they can not advertise until they receive the report. =========== AVAILABLE REPORTS ==================== ORDER EACH REPORT BY ITS NUMBER & NAME ONLY. Notes: Always send $5 cash (U.S. CURRENCY) for each Report. Checks NOT accepted. Make sure the cash is concealed by wrapping it in at least 2 sheets of paper. On one of those sheets of paper, Write the NUMBER & the NAME of the Report you are ordering, YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS and your name and postal address. PLACE YOUR ORDER FOR THESE REPORTS NOW : ==================================================== REPORT # 1: "The Insider's Guide to Advertising for Free on the Net" Order Report #1 from: J.Kay 37 Leslie Road Toll Bar St Helens, Merseyside, WA10 3EQ, England ___________________________________________________________ REPORT # 2: "The Insider's Guide to Sending Bulk e-mail on the Net" Order Report # 2 from: M.G. 7143 Hillside Dr. W. Bloomfield, MI 48322-2847, USA ____________________________________________________________ REPORT # 3: "Secret to Multilevel Marketing on the Net" Order Report # 3 from : K.C. 7143 Hillside Dr. W. Bloomfield, MI 48322-2847, USA __________________________________________________________ REPORT # 4: "How to Become a Millionaire Utilizing MLM & the Net" Order Report # 4 from: B. M. 4510 Meadow Way White Lake, Mi 48383-1816, USA ____________________________________________________________ REPORT #5: "How to Send Out 0ne Million e-mails for Free" Order Report # 5 from: D. J. 16 Northcrest Dr. London, Ontario, Canada N5X-3V8 ___________________________________________________________ $$$$$$$$$ YOUR SUCCESS GUIDELINES $$$$$$$$$$$ Follow these guidelines to guarantee your success: === If you do not receive at least 10 orders for Report #1 within 2 weeks, continue sending e-mails until you do. === After you have received 10 orders, 2 to 3 weeks after that you should receive 100 orders or more for REPORT # 2. If you did not, continue advertising or sending e-mails until you do. === Once you have received 100 or more orders for Report # 2, YOU CAN RELAX, because the system is already working for you, and the cash will continue to roll in ! THIS IS IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER: Every time your name is moved down on the list, you are placed in front of a Different report. You can KEEP TRACK of your PROGRESS by watching which report people are ordering from you. IF YOU WANT TO GENERATE MORE INCOME SEND ANOTHER BATCH OF E-MAILS AND START THE WHOLE PROCESS AGAIN. There is NO LIMIT to the income you can generate from this business !!! ====================================================== FOLLOWING IS A NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS PROGRAM: You have just received information that can give you financial freedom for the rest of your life, with NO RISK and JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT. You can make more money in the next few weeks and months than you have ever imagined. Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED. Do Not change it in any way. It works exceedingly well as it is now. Remember to e-mail a copy of this exciting report after you have put your name and address in Report #1 and moved others to #2 ...........# 5 as instructed above. One of the people you send this to may send out 100,000 or more e-mails and your name will be on every one of them. Remember though, the more you send out the more potential customers you will reach. So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and opportunity to become financially independent. IT IS UP TO YOU NOW ! ============ MORE TESTIMONIALS ================ "My name is Mitchell. My wife, Jody and I live in Chicago. I am an accountant with a major U.S. Corporation and I make pretty good money. When I received this program I grumbled to Jody about receiving ''junk mail''. I made fun of the whole thing, spouting my knowledge of the population and percentages involved. I ''knew'' it wouldn't work. Jody totally ignored my supposed intelligence and few days later she jumped in with both feet. I made merciless fun of her, and was ready to lay the old ''I told you so'' on her when the thing didn't work. Well, the laugh was on me! Within 3 weeks she had received 50 responses. Within the next 45 days she had received total $ 147,200.00 ........... all cash! I was shocked. I have joined Jody in her ''hobby''. Mitchell Wolf M.D., Chicago, Illinois ====================================================== ''Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my mind to participate in this plan. But conservative that I am, I decided that the initial investment was so little that there was just no way that I wouldn't get enough orders to at least get my money back''. '' I was surprised when I found my medium size post office box crammed with orders. I made $319,210.00in the first 12 weeks. The nice thing about this deal is that it does not matter where people live. There simply isn't a better investment with a faster return and so big." Dan Sondstrom, Alberta, Canada ======================================================= 'I had received this program before. I deleted it, but later I wondered if I should have given it a try. Of course, I had no idea who to contact to get another copy, so I had to wait until I was e-mailed again by someone else.........11 months passed then it luckily came again...... I did not delete this one! I made more than $490,000 on my first try and all the money came within 22 weeks." Susan De Suza, New York, N.Y. ======================================================= ''It really is a great opportunity to make relatively easy money with little cost to you. I followed the simple instructions carefully and within 10 days the money started to come in. My first month I made $20,560.00 and by the end of third month my total cash count was $362,840.00. Life is beautiful, Thanx to internet.". Fred Dellaca, Westport, New Zealand ======================================================= ORDER YOUR REPORTS TODAY AND GET STARTED ON 'YOUR' ROAD TO FINANCIAL FREEDOM ! ======================================================= If you have any questions of the legality of this program, contact the Office of Associate Director for Marketing Practices, Federal Trade Commission, Bureau of Consumer Protection, Washington, D.C. (Note: To avoid delays make sure appropriate postage to Canada is applied if mailing from the US) -=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=Remove Instructions=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ************************************************************** Do not reply to this message - To be removed from future mailings: <mailto:housetips@hotmail.com?Subject=Remove> ************************************************************** -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <http://explorer.msn.com>

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New Prestige & Premium Checks!
by Lisa Thornton 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

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Find a Sizzling Playmate at Adult Friend Finder!
by team＠adultfriendfinder.com 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

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Re: Affects of the balkanization of mail blacklisting
by measl＠mfn.org 14 Aug '01

14 Aug '01

On Mon, 13 Aug 2001, Randy Bush wrote: > >> you could be right. i guess it's time i sent them another donation. > > Save it: the people MAPS has harmed neet it more. > > support low-life, slimeball, spammers? ROFL! No, I'm not talking about the spammers who were caught in maps, I'm referring to the INNOCENTS who were caught in MAPS. If the LEO community acted like MAPS does, there would have been armed revolution in the streets *years ago*. MAPS never gave a shit about facts, they cared only about their agenda - no matter who got hurt in the way. Fuckem. Vixie is a netnazi who would do us all a favor if he just blew what little brains he has left out of his left ear. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin(a)mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------

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