February 1993 - cypherpunks-legacy

RE: Advertising on the net
by visionary＠peg.apc.org 20 Feb '93

20 Feb '93

Whilst the arguments "against" online advertising are many and are BOUND to be the most vocal, I'd just like to put in a pitch that counters that thread. I really like to see what people are up to - if that means they are tryin to earn a living from their activities, then thats fine by me. So I like to see good, clever, informative and interesting advertising material - PROVIDED it is NOT posted repeatedly ad nauseam - i'd forgive once, twice, thrice over a period of a month or so - then if it came in again I'd shout! If you look closely at what actually comes across from all quarters i think you'd agree that we do receive a lot of "advertising" in many subtle guises. Gee - even crediting a magazine from which an article is swiped is a form of advertising ;-) I view the net as a way of life... as such i would even LIKE to be able to order all sorts of things via email. For instance if some of the more prolific writers among us wanted to earn something from their writing, then i believe it would be very acceptable to make books, journal subscriptions, limited print-runs etc available in an online catalog - again, providing it was interesting, informative reading in its own right then I would have no objection whatsoever. I could probably wax lyrical with many other examples, but i'm sure you get my drift. I'm very interested in this debate and hope that some sensible guidelines may be formulated by such discussion. Naturally, in moderated newsgroups, this issue is clearly dealt with... but yet is it correct that the moderator be the "all-powerful" hand of CUT or KEEP. You may also gather from the above that i am totally against censorship of ANY sort - fully knowing what a can of worms that opens up in regard to online communications. ...looking forward to hearing more... enuf from me :-) Michael Ney PO Box 566 Milsons Point NSW 2061 Australia Tel: (+61-2) 692-8168 Email via APC: peg:visionary via Internet: visionary(a)peg.apc.org Engaged in graphic design, photography, journalism and publishing. No job too small - will work within budget limitations - fast service! ...But that wasnt an advert - I was just telling you about myself :-) ________________ VISIONARY MEDIA _____________________________________

1 0

Re: LIST RULES
by George A. Gleason 20 Feb '93

20 Feb '93

I agree with ssandfort that a total ban on advertising on the list is a not-good thing. Commercial speech is still speech, and censorship is still censorship. Here's a possible win-win solution: on any commercial message, the subject header should say "advertising included" or some obvious words or abbreviations to that effect. This way, those who wish to avoid such messages can do so painlessly, those who wish to read them can do that, and one more potential for restriction is eliminated. -gg

1 0

Back-Door Man
by deltorto＠aol.com 20 Feb '93

20 Feb '93

>> How do we know the proposed legislation wasn't just a smoke >> screen? Isn't it possible that the Feds have already compromised >> Intel or MicroSoft? Is there some way to be sure that the new >> 486 chip running your computer isn't recording each PGP or RSA >> private key you generate? >> >> S a n d y ssandfort(a)attmail.com Sheesh. I guess you just have to stand back and admire this level of paranoia. Can we establish a 'Cypherpunks Paranoia Achievement Award' for this? Shortly thereafter Sandy sez: "Hey, wait a minnit... just _why are you voting for ME?" Technically, Kelly G.'s suggestion notwithstanding, I think this is definitely a computationally-impossible task. However: in a very specific circumstance, such as some foreign spook who's already under surveillance by the feds, I suppose it's possible to create a one-time special chip that might record keystrokes (or transmit them to a van, etc.) and then be replaced *physically* with a replacement. The intelligence necessary to coordinate an operation such as this, however, is pretty involved. Personally, since I have NO interest in offing the President, I doubt they're gonna bother with me. Not only that, but also this: imho, it's more than _probable_ that the Feds have compromised both Intel & Microsoft, but, as the old Polish saying goes: "You can put your shoes in the oven, but that don't make 'em biscuits." d-d-dave

1 0

Re: LIST RULEz
by DrZaphod 20 Feb '93

20 Feb '93

In Message Fri, 19 Feb 93 19:56:41 +45722724, Marc Horowitz <MIT.EDU!marc(a)netcomsv.netcom.com> writes: >It is conventional to avoid blatant commercial traffic on the Internet >and the USENET. Part of this is because of the Acceptable Use >Policies which exist on parts of the net. But a lot of it is that >people generally don't want to see random advertisements. I throw >them away when the come in the paper mail; I don't want them in my >email, either. > Is this a problem on CypherPunks? I havn't seen a single message here that made me jump out of my seat and scream "I don't need to see this on CypherPunks!" It's not like we're getting continual junk posts advertising trucks or something! I say, "Don't let it bug ya until we start seeing a junk trend on the list." What do you guyz say? TTFN! Oh.. and I'm an AnArChIsT if anybody [including NSAs database] was wondering. DrZaphod [AC/DC] / [DnA][HP] [drzaphod(a)ncselxsi.uucp] Technicolorized

1 0

LIST RULES
by ssandfort＠attmail.com 20 Feb '93

20 Feb '93

Todd is new to the nets. He sent the following to me by mistake. He sent me another message and asked me to forward it to Cypherpunks. ------------- Begin Forwarded Message ------------- Date: Fri Feb 19 12:08:02 -0700 1993 From: internet!alembic.com!todd (Todd Steigerwald) Subject: Re: LIST RULES To: !ssandfort Content-Length: 956 I will not "advertise" on the list as long as John prohibits it. But I sincerely hope his prohibition does not discourage others from discussing the issues it raises. I would like to hear what the rest of you think. I do not argue with the decision to prohibit blatant advertising, however, with the increasing awareness of the internet and its potential, there is going to be more and more individuals that will want to extend beyond what it is currently being employed for. Regardless about individual feelings and ideals as to how and what the net should be used for, the issues WILL become increasingly debated, more than likely resulting in the eventual acceptance of advertising. Simply put it is the new marketing frontier- many many people are seeing that already, and the beliefs of the few will not serve to stop it-as bad or good as that may be. I will apologise beforehand since I am new to the net, but who is John?

2 1

Political reasons to spread Crypto(warning FLAME-BAIT)
by kelly＠netcom.com 20 Feb '93

20 Feb '93

To All, For those of us who have chosen to stand up and be counted as leaders in our electronic democracy, it is important to remember the economic impact activities and experiments such as the ones cypherpunks conduct have on the social fabric of control that the government seeks to have pervasive throughout our society. Leaders in other communities such as the Black/Gay/Minorities/Women have been crushed, murdered/assasinated and have had their rights trampled on by the Federal Intelligence community. Buses such as COINTELPRO/MK ULTRA and other actions against american citizens have been legion thoughout the existance of the federal intelligence community Their budgets for intelligense, spying, murder are secret, so called black budgets and their activities among us have been largely hidden being covered up by what ever means necessary. The federal government has perverted virtuall every instrument,concept,iand theory that has been handed it all in this insane reasoning of "For reasons of National Security", Well I for one am DAMN sick of seeing the constitution flushed down the drain by those marching morons in their haste of expediency, I am damn sick of seeing my hard earned dollars go to support Wars of suppression in El Salvador and Brazil where torture and Murder is both taught by the intelligence community in this country and promulgated, Death squads and other instruments of suppressiooon are still commonplace south of the border and the DRUG war is now listed as the reason, GIVE ME A BREAK what about the CIA retrofit base in Mena, Arkansas. What about the contra/drug scandal. What About That damn rascal ex-president BUSH, and dont think that means Clintons are any cleaner. Well I for one am taking that stand I earlier suggested and making DAMN sure this gets into all the hands of the groups mentioned, as in my original publication of PGP 1.0 for Phil 2 years ago.... I am scared very scared, and when I get scared I dont cower I fight back by whatever legal means are left me... PGP and DC style protocols are effective LEGAL weapons that have an extreme economic impact on the gathering of illicit electronic intelligence by the federal intelligence community from the citizens of this country and others in the political movements WE as leaders in spreading this new technology to those groups can have a very REAL WORLD effect in stopping murder, torture and political supression. US readers have to be cautioned NOT to export Crypto technology from our borders telling others where to find it and how to set it up and use it is PERFECTLY LEGAL however. OK I will shut up now and let the flames roar!!!! :) A slightly agitiated CryptoAnarchist/Peace Activist/cypherpunk cheers kelly --------

2 1

Social effects of UNrestricted Crypto
by kelly＠netcom.com 19 Feb '93

19 Feb '93

"What does the Federal Intelligence Community Fear" #1. President Bush in a little notice move during the height of the Iraq war had a ceratin statute in the vast body of (un)LAW that compromise the National Security Act. It became a violation of that same act to publish a photo or information about a federal intelligence community member. Thus all their actions are effectively hidden from view. With anonymous posting and forwarding mechanisms it becomes easily for whistle-bloweres and Political activists to circumvent that antithesis to the 1st amendment of the constitution and expose all of the hidden plots of a vastly overbearing federal bueracracy The Federal Government knows this fact as their actions regarding cryptography for the past 40 years shows it. Cryptography has a very REAL world effect in exposing corruption while preventing or inviting retribution from those selfsame federal lawbreakers Truly anonymous posting/forwarding networks being totally beyond their ability to coerce/interdict or penetrate scare the living hell out of them. Imagine a SUNDEVIL type federal operation(witchhunt) where ALL of the defendents email/posting are either encrypted or anonymized :) it would pose some very hard problems for the investigators(witchunters) what are your thoughts? cheers kelly p.s. Imagine an federal investigation where the investigators became the investigated with the help of anonymous networks digitized video clips and photos and easily obtainable/ publicly available investigative Databases oops is this forbidden speech also??? better watch what I say the Godamn US ARMY may be listening!!

1 0

code that works with mailtool
by geoffw＠nexsys.net 19 Feb '93

19 Feb '93

Anybody have some code that lets me use pgp with sun's v3 mailtool In a selective way?

1 0

SUBSCRIBE
by Sauron 19 Feb '93

19 Feb '93

SUBSCRIBE

1 0

Spreading Encryption to Political Groups
by tcmay＠netcom.com 19 Feb '93

19 Feb '93

Kelly Goen expresses his outrage about the powerfreaks controlling the police/spy/military agencies and encourages us to help spread encryption and privacy technology to the groups figthing the government: >and company and changes in their tax status. These were and are the same >people suing the CIA over the La-penca bombing in honduras of >Journalists during the times of the contras in Nicgura. They while their >agenda is a good bit more political than ours have been the only ones for years >keeping the federal government at bay by lawsuit. >They need technical assistance, hookins to peacenet and Econet and general >help, >considering the widespread nature of the problem >we are fighting here maybe we should consider very actively >promultagating PGP and DC style anoymous networks among the >pease/political/human rights group. It would provide >convenient crypto-noise of PGP messgaes and greatly increase >the amount of money that the federal government has to spend investigating and >force them to spread themselves even more thinly...:) I agree completely. Even though I'm a libertarian (small "l") anarchocapitalist who happened to vote for Perot (who has his defects!), I support some (but not all) of the liberal agenda. Especially as regards getting the government out of our lives. (And where I part company with many on the left is in the areas of interference in free markets, anti-discrimination laws, and other statist invasions of freedom and privacy.) >From the Cypherpunks I have met, either at the physical meetings or at places like the Hackers Conference, I would say that about 50% are strongly libertarian/anarchist, about 20% are liberal/leftist, and the rest I don't know about. What's the point? That we should follow Kelly's advice and make some contacts with those in other movements. I suspect this may be happening anyway, as Phil ZImmermann has said he wrote PGP partly to help peace activists and the like. Just my opinion, of course. -Tim May -- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: MailSafe and PGP available.

2 1