July 2004 - cypherpunks-legacy

As Cash Fades, America Becomes A Plastic Nation
by R. A. Hettinga 24 Jul '04

24 Jul '04

<http://online.wsj.com/article_print/0,,SB109053116869571496,00.html> The Wall Street Journal July 23, 2004 PAGE ONE Paper Losses As Cash Fades, America Becomes A Plastic Nation Even State Troopers Accept Credit and Debit Cards; McDonald's Capitulation A Swiper for Church Donors By JATHON SAPSFORD Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL July 23, 2004; Page A1 Whenever state trooper Michael Poupart pulls over a speeding motorist on I-94 in Wisconsin's Kenosha County, he offers to take Visa or MasterCard debit and credit cards right there on the side of the road. Drivers initially look puzzled, until the trooper explains he has a card swiper onboard. "Then they say 'OK,' and hand over the card," he says. "They'd rather deal with it right there." Trooper Poupart is one reason the nation passed a watershed last year. For the first time, Americans used cards -- credit, debit and others -- to buy retail goods and services more often than they used cash or check in 2003. The nation now uses cards to subscribe to cable TV, pay taxes and hire Phil Marlowe, a 17-year-old in Tyngsboro, Mass., to cart stuff in the back of his Chevy Silverado. He carries a cellphone with a "PowerSwipe" snapped onto the back to handle his card transactions. His sales roughly doubled when he started advertising credit-card acceptance on the side of his truck. "One lady gave me a $30 tip just because I accepted cards," he says. Vending machines, subway systems and charities now accept cards. The government is handing out cards in lieu of food stamps and child-support disbursements. Hip-hop mogul Russell Simmons is marketing a service that lets people put their paychecks directly onto a Visa card, giving consumers without bank accounts access to plastic. At "Da Money," an online chat room where consumers trade financial tips, participants recently touted the benefits of Mr. Simmons's card. "For the Ladies, YES! There is a...'pre-paid' VISA credit card and it is PINK!" said one writer. "Let Puff Daddy top that!!!'' By letting consumers buy things with unprecedented convenience and speed, cards have transformed the economy. They have helped keep consumer spending strong even through terror attacks and recessions. When people pay with plastic, they tend to spend more -- often more than they have in the bank. Thus, credit cards also have fueled an explosion in consumer debt. It is expected to hit $838 billion this year, an increase of 6.8% from 2003 and more than double what it was ten years ago. The aircraft carrier USS Harry S. Truman went completely cashless earlier this year. The Navy issued MasterCards to all 5,000 sailors aboard. On payday, seamen insert cards into a machine that electronically loads money stored onto each card. They then use the cards for all onboard purchases. The Navy estimates sailors on the Truman buy 250,000 soft drinks monthly. When it was a cash ship, somebody had to collect half a ton of quarters each month from all the Truman's vending machines. Those coins then had to be redistributed. Now it's all settled electronically. An added benefit: Shipmates can use the same cards while visiting nightclubs or movie theaters on shore, as well as to send money home. The Navy has even put a swiper by the door of the chapel as a substitute for the Sunday church-service collection plate, says Cmdr. Boyle McDunn, a chaplain aboard the Truman. A currency can be anything that all members of a society agree it should be. The current boom in plastic is one of those rare moments in history when that agreement shifts and one payment form overtakes another as the preferred way to pay. The first such change came sometime between the 10th and 6th centuries B.C., when Greece and India each introduced metal coins, which surpassed barter or the shell currencies of earlier times. Coins dominated trade for the next 2,000 years, until the introduction of checks by Italian merchants in the Middle Ages. In 1690, Massachusetts became the first of the colonies to introduce paper money. Cash took decades to gain broad acceptance, but eventually became the standard of payment for the next three centuries. The first credit card was introduced as a service for the wealthy in New York in 1950 under the Diner's Club brand. Today, U.S. consumers use plastic to buy $2.2 trillion in goods and services each year -- roughly 20% of U.S. gross domestic product. Last year, cash was used in 32% of retail transactions, down from 39% in 1999. Credit-card usage has remained stable, accounting for about 21% of purchases during that time. Meanwhile debit cards, which take money out of checking accounts immediately after each purchase, shot up to 31% of purchases last year, from 21% in 1999. CHARGING AHEAD The rise in plastic by the numbers Households with payment cards 1970 16% Today 73% Amount consumers purchased with cards 1994 $724 billion 2003 $2.2 trillion U.S. GDP attributed to card purchases 20% Average cards held per household 1971 0.6 2003 7.8 Merchants accepting cards 1971 820,000 Today 5.3 million Amount Visa USA processes over its networks per second $32,000 Card solicitations to be sent to households this year 4.9 billion Solicitations sent for cards touting shopper rewards 2002 811 million 2003 1.27 billion Average amount a household spent on cards in 2003 $15,066 Amount cardholder must spend* with an American Express card to qualify for a Personal chef for cooking lesson and dinner for eight $95,000 Three-day polo lesson in Palm Springs, Fla. $180,000 Suborbital space flight with Russian cosmonauts $20 million *Total spending requirement can be less depending on where card is used. Sources: Sinovate Mail Monitor; Cardweb.com; Paywithplastic.org; American Express; Visa USA; Nilson Report Consumer activists have long warned of the dangers of credit cards, which have caused many a tragic story of personal bankruptcy and become fodder for late-night TV commercials for debt doctors. As cards spread, critics say consumers are running tabs for increasingly routine purchases. "You could end up paying interest on ice cream," says Travis Plunkett of the Consumer Federation of America. Roughly 60% of credit-card holders roll balances over each month, paying interest of as much as 22%. Because these cardholders are the most lucrative customers of the banks, critics say they effectively subsidize the remaining 40% of cardholders. Maria Nemeth, a psychologist in Sacramento, Calif., says card usage is becoming so easy and pervasive that consumers are losing the ability to budget. Using plastic, she says, is as hard to resist as junk food, and potentially as dangerous. She regularly tells clients to go on 48-hour "cash diets," refraining from the use of plastic for two days at a time. Tension has also surfaced over the fees that merchants pay the card industry on each transaction. The European Commission argues consumers paying in cash are effectively forced to subsidize the acceptance of plastic. That's because the merchants' cost of accepting cards drives up prices on all goods in stores. Some Christians see the pervasive use of plastic as part of a dark biblical prophecy. Pat Robertson, founder of the Christian Broadcasting Network, has said that plastic may signal the cashless society of the end times foreshadowed in the Bible. Mr. Robertson's network accepts contributions from supporters on both Visa and MasterCard. A big part of the mission of companies like Visa and MasterCard (joint ventures owned by the thousands of banks that issue cards under those names) is to become to consumers exactly what Ms. Nemeth warns against: a ubiquitous presence that is hardly noticed, much less resisted. "It's like the switch on the wall," says Robert W. Selander, president and chief executive of MasterCard. "You turn on electricity and the lights turn on. ... We take it for granted." "We're like the dial tone," says Carl F. Pascarella, president and chief executive of Visa USA Inc., the biggest credit-card company in terms of cards outstanding. Over the longer term, big earnings for the card industry could come from the commission merchants pay with each swipe, anywhere from 1% to 5% of each transaction. It amounts to a tax, of sorts, on the new currency of choice. "There are still trillions of dollars in cash and check that are out there just waiting to be captured on plastic," says Bill Glenn, president of American Express's Merchant Network, which manages the company's relations with merchants. Card issuers have been targeting merchants who refuse to accept plastic, offering incentives and lower fees. The fast-food industry held out for years in the face of intense card-industry lobbying. Behind the reluctance: Signing or punching in code numbers at the counters was too time-consuming for an industry that relies on quick service, and the transaction fees were considered too expensive. In response, the card industry lowered the fees they charge quick-service restaurants and waived the signature requirement. McDonald's Corp. capitulated in March, agreeing to widespread card acceptance at its restaurants, a move that many in the industry say will force other fast-food restaurants to follow. Card companies say McDonald's found the average transaction jumped from $4.50 to $7 when customers used debit and credit cards instead of cash -- in part, because cardholders tend to buy for more people. A California company named Creditel Corp. has found a way to turn the cellular telephone into a swiper. Its "PowerSwipe" snaps onto the back of Nextel cellphones. Stadium food hawkers were given the devices before last year's Super Bowl in San Diego. Fans were able to charge beer and hot dogs from their seats, without missing any of the game. The cellphone can even fax a receipt to the cardholder's office or home. Emily Cook, a U.S. Olympic ski team member sponsored by Visa, participated in a year-long Visa experiment in which she used plastic for every purchase over $10. Rushing through airports from country to country to join qualifying meets, she never had to change currencies. For roughly 60 million Americans without bank accounts, however, living without cards is getting harder. They can't easily rent cars or stay in hotels, among other things. "You're effectively locked out of the American Dream if you don't have some kind of plastic, and it's going to get worse," says Mr. Simmons, the hip-hop mogul, whose RushCard lets holders put their paychecks onto plastic. U-Haul International Inc., the truck-rental company, has begun issuing "payroll cards" to about 3,000 of its employees, or about 17% of its work force. They are mostly hourly workers who lack bank accounts. Workers can withdraw cash once a week from any automated teller machine without paying a fee, and they can use the cards wherever Visa is accepted. They can even get cash back after a purchase from the supermarket without any charge. The company, meanwhile, says it is saving about $500,000 a year in costs associated with issuing checks. More technological innovation is coming, and plastic itself may eventually fall into disuse. After all, it is the numbers carried on plastic, not the plastic cards themselves, that are necessary to complete transactions. Since cards are susceptible to theft and fraud, the industry is working on "biometric" identification techniques. Computers would link credit-card numbers, housed on an electronic database, to unique body parts such as fingerprints, irises or facial characteristics. Card industry executives envision consumers being identified at cash registers with devices such as fingerprint readers or eye scanners, which would replace the signature or PIN that consumers currently use to verify identity. Online shoppers might identify themselves by pressing fingers to a silicon wafer embedded in the keyboard, which would read the fingerprint, match it online with a copy held by bank or merchant, then authorize the sale. They wouldn't need a card at all. -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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LMAO
by Major Variola (ret) 23 Jul '04

23 Jul '04

Working for a major Kiretsu, I learn that a certain keypress sequence during boot enables SSH. Security by obscurity, baby. Never heard of Mr. Kirchoff? Undocumented backdoor feature, baby. LMAO, yours, MV

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Got Osama?
by Major Variola (ret) 23 Jul '04

23 Jul '04

At 12:40 PM 7/23/04 +0200, Thomas Shaddack wrote: >On Thu, 22 Jul 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote: > >> My point is only that they will be killed should they leak their >> actual capabilities. > >Well... I am reading a book about intelligence now. Specifically, "Ernst >Volkman: Spies - the secret agents who changed the course of history". >Amusing book; describes many ways of intelligence fieldwork, most of them >pretty lowtech. You would enjoy the tradecraft described in the Brit book, which JYA has stopped propogating, but is available on the P2P net. As exercise, they broke into brits' houses. But then, no BoR, all your serfs belong to us. >Eg, using business representatives as business/technology >spies (as eg. a skilled steelworker can assess the capacity and capability >and current processing of a factory quite at a glance, and he's often let >in during contract negotiations), using pretty women to lure officers into >honeytraps... or, recruiting young pretty men to seduce the not exactly >pretty old maids who so often work as secretaries in important places. Yes a friend of mine's wife was a Russkie with a Biz degree, he posted her CIA recruitment letter on his cube door.... >You don't need a *LOT* of money to pull smaller-scale tricks of this kind. >Also, using "amateurs", private enterpreneurs in the arts of burglaries, >safecracking and other relevant areas, instead of "governmental" >employees, poses a counterintelligence advantage that these recruits are >unknown to the adversary (and to most of your side too, so there's less >chance somebody will be caught or changes sides and squeaks on them). And as the Operatives have found, you get caught, you are Halal meat, at best. >There are many ways to get access to even pretty sensitive info. Patience >and persistence and plethora of approaches are important here. H. saps. be the weak link. >> >Undersea taps are hard. No matter how you figure it. That's why you pay taxes, bub. >Depends on whom. Often the money are the main motivation. Of course, your >own country won't pay you as well as the other one, and will try to appeal >to your "patriotism" like a bunch of cheapskates - it's better to be a >contractor. Until your head is separated from your body... >> What I meant was, Ames and that FBI dude Hansen (sp?), at least the KGB >> got Ames' wife as part of the package, whereas the FBI CI dude let his >> wife off as part of the deal he cut. Nice xian that he was, he was into >> strippers. >> >> All under $2e6, all capable of reading their own records. Go figure, >> eh? > >And many of them disclosed their colleagues when politely asked. Well duh, that's part of the deal.. >But a big truth remains here - SIGINT and COMINT aren't everything, often >a drop of HUMINT is the missing secret sauce. Yes, but HUMINT tends to lose its head when questioned.... on video, no less... Madrid == October, 2004, dig?

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Cryptographers and U.S. Immigration
by R. A. Hettinga 23 Jul '04

23 Jul '04

--- begin forwarded text

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Cryptographers and U.S. Immigration
by Atom 'Smasher' 23 Jul '04

23 Jul '04

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 ...atom _________________________________________ PGP key - http://atom.smasher.org/pgp.txt 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808 ------------------------------------------------- "When the government fears the people, you have liberty. When the people fear the government, you have tyranny." --Thomas Jefferson <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0407.html#3 Cryptographers and U.S. Immigration Seems like cryptographers are being questioned when they enter the U.S. these days. Recently I received this (anonymous) comment: "It seems that the U.S. State Department has a keen interest in foreign cryptographers: Yesterday I tried to renew my visa to the States, and after standing in line and getting fingerprinted, my interviewer, upon hearing that my company sells [a cryptography product], informed me that "due to new regulations," Washington needs to approve my visa application, and that to do so, they need to know exactly which companies I plan to visit in the States, points of contact, etc. etc. Quite a change from my last visa application, for which I didn't even have to show up." I'm curious if any of my foreign readers have similar stories. There are international cryptography conferences held in the United States all the time. It would be a shame if they lost much of their value because of visa regulations. #### -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.3.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: What is this gibberish? Comment: http://atom.smasher.org/links/#digital_signatures iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJBAI9EAAoJEAx/d+cTpVcibb0IAIPYNzglmGiNyBLP4ogd5bI8 bSUCTLLIHkp4+dOKuxcuoNTagsNBfDC1Ny1BCL60grW5yoY0hiS1SzY+aw2/VrHg 6DEJVtXTSae/oEZv/czlVJsvI+U+OBD2JqlXIyFiayfR1R6yMVoMrX3RVyB7UklG 3a10ehfuY+pKkZa6JwYlM+TGxrNNCR5UOoNV1TdL40oLBTb0uFs+WG2tY+KYuypO ChdyAsTlBQw7b6rGRoOti93Wi4XxkFH39cFxDfRIG8Ah+J2QkRjwFrO+aUwCG7ds SjBfjV1kBWsXChS+vfzZBmwvGwZx3EDKfpBecybokyvV1jpdugyiRnV/UPERnro= =ytcR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Gnupg-devel mailing list Gnupg-devel(a)gnupg.org http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-devel --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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Cryptographers and U.S. Immigration
by Atom 'Smasher' 23 Jul '04

23 Jul '04

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 ...atom _________________________________________ PGP key - http://atom.smasher.org/pgp.txt 762A 3B98 A3C3 96C9 C6B7 582A B88D 52E4 D9F5 7808 ------------------------------------------------- "When the government fears the people, you have liberty. When the people fear the government, you have tyranny." --Thomas Jefferson <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0407.html#3 Cryptographers and U.S. Immigration Seems like cryptographers are being questioned when they enter the U.S. these days. Recently I received this (anonymous) comment: "It seems that the U.S. State Department has a keen interest in foreign cryptographers: Yesterday I tried to renew my visa to the States, and after standing in line and getting fingerprinted, my interviewer, upon hearing that my company sells [a cryptography product], informed me that "due to new regulations," Washington needs to approve my visa application, and that to do so, they need to know exactly which companies I plan to visit in the States, points of contact, etc. etc. Quite a change from my last visa application, for which I didn't even have to show up." I'm curious if any of my foreign readers have similar stories. There are international cryptography conferences held in the United States all the time. It would be a shame if they lost much of their value because of visa regulations. #### -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.3.6 (FreeBSD) Comment: What is this gibberish? Comment: http://atom.smasher.org/links/#digital_signatures iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJBAI9EAAoJEAx/d+cTpVcibb0IAIPYNzglmGiNyBLP4ogd5bI8 bSUCTLLIHkp4+dOKuxcuoNTagsNBfDC1Ny1BCL60grW5yoY0hiS1SzY+aw2/VrHg 6DEJVtXTSae/oEZv/czlVJsvI+U+OBD2JqlXIyFiayfR1R6yMVoMrX3RVyB7UklG 3a10ehfuY+pKkZa6JwYlM+TGxrNNCR5UOoNV1TdL40oLBTb0uFs+WG2tY+KYuypO ChdyAsTlBQw7b6rGRoOti93Wi4XxkFH39cFxDfRIG8Ah+J2QkRjwFrO+aUwCG7ds SjBfjV1kBWsXChS+vfzZBmwvGwZx3EDKfpBecybokyvV1jpdugyiRnV/UPERnro= =ytcR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- _______________________________________________ Gnupg-devel mailing list Gnupg-devel(a)gnupg.org http://lists.gnupg.org/mailman/listinfo/gnupg-devel --- end forwarded text -- ----------------- R. A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)ibuc.com> The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation <http://www.ibuc.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies
by Major Variola (ret) 22 Jul '04

22 Jul '04

At 10:27 AM 7/22/04 -0400, Tyler Durden wrote: >>Gilmore et al used a bunch of old Sun Chassis for his & Kocher's >>DEScracker. You think this is somehow more than 100 watts, in a >>diplo suitcase, nowadays? My point was, Gilmore et al were way behind what's capable. Proof of concept needn't be compact. A suitcase can handle his DesCrack, with all due respect, nowadays. >OK, so you're saying that this suitcase takes in say 10 OC-192s, demuxes all >of them down to the DS1 level (we're at 50,000 DS1s), demaps and unpacks the >ATM cells, and then reassembles all of the packets therein? Questions: Just for yucks, look up the specs on an Intel IXA processor. >1) How does this majic box store all that data? No store, just bridge. >2) I've been in dozens of COs myself, and have worked extensively with >people who have spent (collectively speaking) centuries in them. They never >saw such a magic box a you describe, and indeed would certainly know about >someone trying to install one. Or perhaps the NSA has developed a cloaking >device making the box invisible? Do you think they so naif they'd expose themselves to a poster who dares post *here* ? >2) What silicon does t use? Are you saying that the government can do a LOT >better than 0.13 microns these days? I'm saying that tech xfer on metal coated diamond is not just for fun. And years behind reality, for those with $400 toilet seat budgets. >3) If the majic box doesn't store the data, how does it get it back to HQ? >Telepathy? One more time: dark fiber and compact drivers. Or even your more subtle unused-bandwith usage, "back atcha". >As for trolling, well when I do it I do it with friggin' style m'friend. True 'nuff. I mean no harm, only to provoke some to think, is all. Clearly you are the uber-Sonet-troll. :-)

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Anonymity, ... - A Proposal for Terminology v 0.18
by R. A. Hettinga 22 Jul '04

22 Jul '04

I've been sent the pdf and .doc versions of this. If you can't get this through the site or the author, ping me and I can send you what they sent me. Cheers, RAH --- begin forwarded text

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Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies
by Tyler Durden 22 Jul '04

22 Jul '04

Variola: You say a lotta good shit here, but you're really out of your area in this case. You seem to miss the basic points, and then fill in your blindspot with pure theoretical conjecture. Let me point out some of the lil' flaws in your thinking.... > >With all due respect, you think Ft. Meade uses the same COTS crap >as you are forced to deal with? Bwah hah hah. For some things, sure. Actually I know from first hand experience. (I've actually been in an NSA, DISA, and a few other experimental network nodes.) Lots of the equipment I saw was from the big vendors, most notably Lucent and Nortel. Somewhere deeper than I had access to, however, they almost certainly use special silicon. >Gilmore et al used a bunch of old Sun Chassis for his & Kocher's >DEScracker. You think this is somehow more than 100 watts, in a >diplo suitcase, nowadays? OK, so you're saying that this suitcase takes in say 10 OC-192s, demuxes all of them down to the DS1 level (we're at 50,000 DS1s), demaps and unpacks the ATM cells, and then reassembles all of the packets therein? Questions: 1) How does this majic box store all that data? 2) I've been in dozens of COs myself, and have worked extensively with people who have spent (collectively speaking) centuries in them. They never saw such a magic box a you describe, and indeed would certainly know about someone trying to install one. Or perhaps the NSA has developed a cloaking device making the box invisible? 2) What silicon does it use? Are you saying that the government can do a LOT better than 0.13 microns these days? Somehow I doubt it. Look at the off-the-shelf SONET chip architectures. Sure, there's lots of stuff onboard that you wouldn't need for what you're talking about, but getting rid of that stuff would still put the most advanced chip lightyears behyind what you're talking about. 3) If the majic box doesn't store the data, how does it get it back to HQ? Telepathy? Or, does it use a bank of lasers that somehow are several orders of magnitude more efficient that off-the-shelf lasers? (And let us remember that there's a fundamental constraint with bulk optics..an optical multiplexer or ciculator can't be an order of magnitude smaller than the wavelength it will support.) JA's comments about fiber exhaust are dead-on, and were not known to most of the Telecom Bubble participants. (Indicates the dude knows what he's talking about with respect to telecom.) But dark fibers aren't a real concern. It would be easy to develop a DWDM system that operated over the L or M bands, "under" the C-band wavelengths used by a carrier. So the problem isn't the fiber, it's lighting it. As for my comments about cable landings, I explicity stated that the splices back to VA were seen and known. And yes, I was in a position to know. (There's not a lot you can hide in a CO...it's not like they staff them with NSA agents or something.) As for trolling, well when I do it I do it with friggin' style m'friend. But sometimes, the truth is so mundane it looks fairly boring. Sorry to dissappoint you. I'm going to have to confiscate your copy of "Deepness in the Sky"... -TD _________________________________________________________________ MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page FREE download! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/

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Re: Email tapping by ISPs, forwarder addresses, and crypto proxies
by Major Variola (ret) 22 Jul '04

22 Jul '04

At 10:12 PM 7/21/04 -0500, J.A. Terranson wrote: >On Wed, 21 Jul 2004, Major Variola (ret) wrote: >> >> With all due respect, you think Ft. Meade uses the same COTS crap >> as you are forced to deal with? Bwah hah hah. > >Sorry Major, I'm gonna have to call you on that one. Yes, they are >lighting that fiber on COTS. Likely on Nortel gear, which I can tell you >from personal experience requires an incredible amount of power, cooling, >and rackspace. >> Just curious as to the depth of navite in the field.... > >As we are curious of yours. Fair 'nuff. I'm following the Principle of not underestimating the adversary, who does plenty of R&D, just look at their tech-transfer program, multiply by a few decades in capacity.. Perhaps that grants the Maryland trogdyltes too much, but again, conservatism rules in this game. Remember, "Nortel" is cost-bound. TLAs are not. They also get radioisotope power supplies, etc. And unpublished tech made in unknown fabs. Albeit, "Nortel" (even if Canadian, eh?) etc are 0wn3d by the USG, so taps through COTS are not so hard, and my "dark fiber" only means the physical capacity is there. And of course people are cheaper than tech. Hell, the counter-intel folks seem to be real bargains, whether FBI or CIA. But if you prefer to believe they play on the same field as us, go ahead, I'll still read your posts, and appreciate the questioning. MV

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