December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: Quick ping about Surety Technologies
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:17:17 -0500 (EST) From: <Somebody> To: rah(a)shipwright.com Subject: Re: Quick ping about Surety Technologies > *That*'s interesting. Haven't heard it before. If you want, I'll bounce it > around. If you would, that would be interesting. The patent info on their web site includes: Method for secure timestamping of digital documents. U.S. Patent No. 5,136,647, issued August 4, 1992. U.S. Patent Re. 34,954, reissued May 30, 1995. The initial patent issue covers a variety of fundamental technology and algorithmic components of digital timestamping. More specifically, the claims cover: * Any use of an outside party's digital signature to timestamp a document. * The "hash-and-sign" method in which the outside party receives the one-way hash of the document to be timestamped. I distrust software patents, but even that aside, these sound really broad to me. More info at <http://www.surety.com/patent_overview.html>. <snip> <Somebody's .sig> --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)philodox.com> Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:39:33 GMT > From: Adam Back <aba(a)dcs.ex.ac.uk> > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd) > > And this is different from yesterday how? > > What's different is that this is Denmark now. Before it was just the > US. And Canada, France, England, China, South Africa, etc., etc., etc. It was NEVER *just* the US. > > Are you offering to put up your monies to provide any and all legal and > > other support for any such site that participates? When is your site going > > up? > > John said that people should put up per country mirrors first globally > accessible, but if required by local laws / harrassment to stop doing > that make them accessible only in the country. And this reduces their footprint with their LEA's how? > As a fall back position as I understand it, so that all the useful > crypto apps are still available. Which doesn't change my original question one whit. What is Gilmore going to do with his may resources to protect those who participate? ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 12:53:51 +0100 > From: Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen(a)stud.uni-muenchen.de> > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls > Tim Griffiths wrote: > > > However I 'export' PGP from the US, I'm exporting it, even if I have a > > web site for each bit, 0 or 1 being determined by whether Clinton has > > a cigar or not in a posted picture. > > Hence the best way, once there are strict export regulations, is not > to export. One moves rather knowledge (thought) across the country > boundaries and there build locally the desired software. That's why > I believe it will be increasingly more essential for the future to > have good crypto algorithms that are very simple to describe and > implement. Interesting aspect to a cypherpunks archive. Archive the software as well as the technical documentation required to write it from scratch. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd) > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:11:14 +0100 (NFT) > From: ulf(a)fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) > According to Jim Choate: > > > And this is different from yesterday how? > > It is different in that it has been legal to distribute PGP and any > other public domain and mass market crypto software from Denmark > up to now. Ah, so the call is for folks in Denmark to post the various pieces of currently available software then, not everyone on the planet as it appears. Don't think so. He's asking that people put PGP and other available software on their websites without the current export controls. If he's not then he's not doing anything except blowing empty bugles because people are already doing what he's asking for. In that situation he's after reputation capital, personal gain. > > Are you offering to put up your monies to provide any and all legal and > > other support for any such site that participates? When is your site going > > up? > > John Gilmore's RSAREF site went up about a year ago. Your point being what? Exactly what it states above. If you don't get it to bad. RSAREF is not quite what he is asking folks to do now is it. Bottem line, Gilmore is asking folks to run out and put their livelyhood and their life at risk. What's he going to do for those who comply with his request? Let me ask you this Ulf, when is YOUR site going up? When will YOU be the first European repeater for the CDR? Your address implies you're in Denmark. What are you going to do for YOUR liberty today? Has Gilmore agreed to help fund YOUR fight of the change in your courts? Bottem line, when will you get off your butt and put your neck in the noose like many of the rest of us? The reality is that the change in Denmark's law changes the global picture very little. Now when Denmark quites letting people IMPORT PGP *and* places like the US quite letting people export it in some media (currently paper & ink) then you'll have cause to really be indignent. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 02:28:18 -0800 > From: x <x(a)x.com> > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin > Walls > >1. What is the point of the obfuscation? If it's not legal to do it > >openly, then it's certainly not legal to hide the fact your doing it. > >"The accused did it in such a way as to demonstrate that he was aware > >of it's illegality". > > the point is not to hide anything; the point is to expand, arbitrarily (and > this was a trivial example), the f() that takes bits from a controllable > image to one that is not. In other words, hide it. A distributed stego hash algorithm. It quacks like a duck. It waddles like a duck. It swims like a duck. It would actualy be criminal collusion and would give the LEA's in the relevant areas the necessary reason (ie probable cause) to act in concert, creating a bigger big brother. Hardly a cpunks goal. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Survey Says Kids Feel 'Threatened' By Internet
by damaged justice 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

A survey has suggested that up to half a million British children may have been upset by something they have seen on the Internet. The NOP poll shows that one in five of nearly 4,000 children between the ages of six and 16 interviewed for the survey between September and October this year were "uncomfortable" with some content viewed on-line. In the UK, 2.4 million children are estimated to use the Internet - roughly a third of all children between six and 16. Of those who have had negative experiences while surfing the Internet, the largest proportion - 40% - had seen something "rude". 'Not surprised' One in seven said they had encountered content that had "freightened them", while 25% saw pages that they thought "would get them into trouble". NOP Associate Director Rob Lawson described the numbers as a "significant minority". The children's charity NCH Action for Children suggested the survey strengthened calls for Internet regulation to protect younger users. Charity spokesman John Carr said: "I regret to say I'm not surprised by this survey's findings, it's what we have been saying for some time. Net nannies "Parents need to know their children are surfing the net in safety and security. At the moment, they have no way of knowing that at all." NCH Action for Children, which advises the government on children's issues, backs the introduction of "net nannies" - programmes which filter out content unsuitable for children. The survey, called Kids.net, was paid for by Microsoft, the BBC, NatWest and Anglia Multimedia in syndicate. The Department of Trade and Industry's forthcoming review on Internet regulation is expected to be published before Christmas. [from news.bbs.co.uk]

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The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site...
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Here's the bottem line issue with Gilmore's RSAREF site. It isn't Gilmore's, it's EFF's. It isn't Gilmore's butt on the line as it would be for person who participate in his call to action. What's EFF going to do to protect those participants? Nothing. What's Gilmore personaly going to do to protect those participants? Nothing. He's asking others to put their butt in the line of fire while he sits safely in a rear area. In effect he's asking YOU to be cannon fodder for his rights. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Trans World Specials Fare Sales
by Trans World Specials 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Lauderdale, FL $99 $169 Sacramento, CA $119 $159 Salt Lake City, UT $109 $129 San Antonio, TX $79 $99 Shreveport, LA $49 Roundtrip fare between NEW YORK, NY (JFK) and: (Depart Saturday 12/12 and return Monday or Tuesday 12/14 or 12/15) Fare: City: 5000 Miles Plus: $139 Orlando, FL $89 Roundtrip fare between AUSTIN, TX and: (Depart Saturday 12/12 and return Monday or Tuesday 12/14 or 12/15) Fare: City: 5000 Miles Plus: $219 Hartford, CT $169 $159 Milwaukee, WI $109 $219 New York, NY (LGA) $169 $199 Washington, DC (DCA) $149 Roundtrip fare between SAN ANTONIO, TX and: (Depart Saturday 12/12 and return Monday or Tuesday 12/14 or 12/15) Fare: City: 5000 Miles Plus: $219 Hartford, CT $169 $159 Milwaukee, WI $109 $219 New York, NY (LGA) $169 $199 Washington, DC (DCA) $149 Roundtrip fare between HARTFORD, CT and: (Depart Saturday 12/12 and return Monday or Tuesday 12/14 or 12/15) Fare: City: 5000 Miles Plus: $269 Sacramento, CA $219 $239 Salt Lake City, UT $189 $179 Shreveport, LA $129 Roundtrip fare between FT. LAUDERDALE, FL and: (Depart Saturday 12/12 and return Monday or Tuesday 12/14 or 12/15) Fare: City: 5000 Miles Plus: $179 Milwaukee, WI $129 $269 Sacramento, CA $219 Roundtrip fare between SACRAMENTO, CA and: (Depart Saturday 12/12 and return Monday or Tuesday 12/14 or 12/15) Fare: City: 5000 Miles Plus: $219 Milwaukee, WI $169 $269 New York, NY (LGA) $219 $269 Washington, DC (DCA) $219 Roundtrip fare between SHREVEPORT, LA and: (Depart Saturday 12/12 and return Monday or Tuesday 12/14 or 12/15) Fare: City: 5000 Miles Plus: $159 Denver, CO $109 $149 Milwaukee, WI $99 $179 New York, NY (LGA) $129 $219 Sacramento, CA $169 $179 Salt Lake City, UT $129 $159 Washington, DC (DCA) $109 Roundtrip fare between SALT LAKE CITY and: (Depart Saturday 12/12 and return Monday or Tuesday 12/14 or 12/15) Fare: City: 5000 Miles Plus: $179 Milwaukee, WI $129 $239 Washington, DC (DCA) $189 For reservations call TWA at 1-800-221-2000 and ask for TWA's special Internet fares. To redeem Aviator Miles with your fare, call the Aviators Service Center at 1-800-325-4815. ****************ALAMO**************** Alamo offers the following low rates valid 12/11/98 - 12/14/98 $16.49 Austin, TX - San Antonio,TX $17.49 Milwaukee, WI - St. Louis, MO $18.49 Salt Lake City, UT $19.49 Ft. Lauderdale, FL - Orlando, FL - Tampa, FL $20.49 Hartford, CT - Washington, DC(National) -Sacramento, CA $21.49 Denver, CO For reservations call Alamo at 1-800-GO-ALAMO and request rate code RT and ID # 443833. For online reservations visit the Alamo website at: http://www.goalaomo.com ***********HILTON HOTELS/RESORTS****************** $72 Hilton Crystal City at National Airport Arlington, VA ( Free airport shuttle, located 5 minutes form the sights of D.C.) $79 Hilton Deerfield Beach/Boca Raton Deerfield Beach, FL (Just 2 miles from the beach. 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Offer is not available in conjunction with any other discount, coupon or promotional offer. Seats are limited and may not be available on all flights or days of the week. Tickets must be purchased at time of booking and no later than 12/11/98. Standby passengers are not allowed. Aviator miles not accrued when redeeming Aviator miles for fare discount. Travel is not allowed on Trans World Express or any other carrier. Aviator miles are non-refundable and may not be recredited to member's account once redeemed. Aviator earned and purchased upgrade certificates may not be used in conjunction with 5000 mile option. DOMESTIC: All fares valid for outbound travel Saturday 12/12 and return travel Monday (12/14) or Tuesday (12/15). Certain fares indicated are also available for departure on Friday 12/11 after 7 p.m. All travel to be completed by 12/15/98. For 12/12 departures minimum stay is 2 days and maximum stay is 3 days. For 12/11 departures minimum stay is 3 days and maximum stay is 4 days. Select Fares $89 and higher may be discounted by redeeming 5000 Aviator miles. INTERNATIONAL: Tickets to Mexico City must be purchased at time of booking and not later than 12/13/98. Travel may originate in St. Louis only. Travel must begin between January 31 and February 28, 1999 and be completed by March 31, 1999. Minimum stay is 3 days and maximum stay is 30 days. Tickets are nonrefundable and no changes are permitted. Fare does not include $32 in APHIS/Immigration/U.S. departure tax, $16.90 Mexico International Airport Departure Tax, or $7.40 in Mexico International Value Added Tax. Travel to St. Maarten may originate in New York only. Depart New York December 17-18 and return December 19-21, 24, 25. Electronic ticketing is required. E-tickets may be issued by travel agency but booking must be done by TWA. Tickets are nonrefundable and non-changeable. Fare does not include $47 in APHIS/U.S. Customs/Immigration/U.S. Departure Tax/Security Surcharge. Car Rental Conditions: Taxes (including in California, VLF taxes ranging up to $1.89 per day), registrations fee/tax reimbursement, and airport access fees/taxes, if any, are extra. Optional CDW, liability insurance, fuel, additional driver fee, drop charges and other optional items are extra. Rates higher for renters under age 25. Rates valid for economy rentals(unless stated otherwise by Alamo) commencing on Friday and ending by 11:59 PM on Monday. Rates only valid during week in which they are published via TWA Internet site. A 24-hour advance reservation is required. Availability is limited. Two day minimum rental required. Hotel Conditions: Hilton Hotels and Resorts special rates are available only during the specific week in which they are published via the TWA Hot Deals Internet site and the HiltonNet Internet site. Limited availability; rooms at these Hilton Value Rates are sold on a first-come, first-served basis. Availability, rate, and terms of occupancy are not guaranteed and will be confirmed at time of reservation. Participating hotels, rates and terms are subject to change without notice. Single or double occupancy. Early check-in, late check-out subject to availability. No extra charge for children when they stay in parents' or grandparents' room; total room occupancy subject to local fire safety regulations and other applicable laws or regulations. Rates vary by season, do not include any other fees or charges, including without limitation state or local taxes or gratuities and are subject to change without notice. Advance booking required. Advance deposit may be required. Offer cannot be combined with any other special discounts, coupons, certificates, special rates, promotional offers, award stays, or meeting/group stays. Hilton reserves the right to cancel any Hilton Value Rate at any time without notice. Hilton is not responsible for the terms of other offers in the program, or for any electronic, computer, telephone, security, virus or any other problem or damage related to use of the program or its offers.

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Re: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:45:56 -0500 > From: Duncan Frissell <frissell(a)panix.com> > Subject: Re: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site... > > Save that the cowards have never busted anyone for crypto exports. It's > dead letter law. They know they'd lose a criminal case against a civilian. > So, when do you bring your site with unconstrained access to PGP up? ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:28:59 +0100 > From: Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen(a)stud.uni-muenchen.de> > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd) > For longer term it might be desirable to have a site in a crypto- > politics neutral country (one that is unlikely to have crypto laws > in foreseeable future) to which software could be uploaded. > Downloading is then import and not subject to restriction. Where? Where is there a country that has a social, economic, and legal infrastructure of sufficient breadth but liberal views of speech to support such an effort? There are lots of little countries around but they have unstable governments, no economy to speak of, limited telecommunications infrastructure, etc. It's fine and dandy to talk about this in the theoretic but the rubber has to hit the road at some point. There isn't such a country to be had. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Ber (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:41:33 -0500 > From: John Young <jya(a)pipeline.com> > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Ber > Yes, Gilmore's proposal was to mirror the contents; URLs threaten > no reg-makers. > > Yep, mirrors of everything would be very large. We've heard already > that folks would like help in knowing what to mirror if they can't do > large archives, or can't easily decide which are most important. [text deleted] > What would help is a list from experts on what are the most gov-enraging > programs. We'd like to offer a few of those on jya.com, to test BXA's up-and- > running crypto-enforcement program, maybe get some jail and trial pleasure, > it's been too quiet on Bernstein, Junger, Karn, et al, a deliberate gov-stall, > awaiting Wassenaar. Besides enraging, it should also include the necessary documents, monographs, libraries, etc. to empower others to write the code within their own legal boundaries. If somebody makes the effort to compile such a list I'd like to personaly request they include this in addition to finished product. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd) > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:43:58 +0100 (MET) > From: 3umoelle(a)informatik.uni-hamburg.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) > > Ah, so the call is for folks in Denmark to post the various pieces of > > currently available software then, not everyone on the planet as it appears. > > It is not just about Denmark. The Wassenaar arrangement has been > signed by 33 countries, including the US, Canada, the European Union, > Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Norway and others. Up to now, 30 of > these states have allowed to export mass market and public domain > crypto software without a license. Only the US, France and NZ did not > have the "General Software Note". Which is EXACTLY my point. People are being asked to put their butts on the line with no infrastructure or plan for what happens when the LEA's show up. Such poor planning is doomed to fail. > The US has exercised extreme pressure at the Wassenaar conference (as > one German government official writes) and has managed to get the > General Software Note modified. Now the states that have signed the > arrangement will have to regulate the export of strong > cryptography. There are other places such as Brazil, Iceland, South > Africa, India, and even Singapore which do not have any export > restrictions. And look at their social, economic, and civil liberty records. Other than Iceland not one area on your list of places has sufficient resources of the correct type to support this sort of effort. Iceland is about the only place that has any hope at all. Is there any move by any group to start some sort of archive there? Are there any subscribers from Iceland on the CDR? If so, I'd like their view on how realistic it would be to host a site in Iceland. > John Gilmore writes: "I call for volunteers in each country, at each > university or crypto-aware organization, to download crypto tools > while they can still be exported from where they are, and then to > offer them for export from your own site and your own country as long > as it's legal." ^^^^^^^ > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Which is exactly what is needed in this situation. Which, again, is my point. What is Gilmore going to do when they decide to make it illegal and start hassling these folks who were kind enough to back him? What does he OWE them for their participation in HIS movement? > RSAREF is what he has determined he can legally export from the US. So, > yes, he is doing what he also asks others to do. Hm, funny. Looks like EFF owns that site. Gilmore is doing nothing himself. He's using EFF as a shield for personal liability. Why isn't he suggesting that others do this instead of direct and personal action? Why is he not running the gilmore.org site directly? Why isn't he looking at starting some sort of international organization similar to EFF, or expanding EFF to do this sort of stuff and at the same time provide the same sort of legal shield he currently enjoys? > > Let me ask you this Ulf, when is YOUR site going up? > > My university is already distributing SSLeay, PGP, ssh, cfs and other > cypto tools. As long as they continue to do so, I won't make my mirror > available on the web, but my own crypto site is going up later this > week with another piece of strong crypto software. Kudos. > > What are you going to do for YOUR liberty today? Has Gilmore agreed to > > help fund YOUR fight of the change in your courts? > > Today I am going to create the distribution of the software I have > been working on in the past months, have the server set up and, if all > goes well, upload the file. > > I have made a few thousand dollars on developing crypto software and I > am ready to use much of that money to defend my right to distribute > the results of my work on the web. I haven't asked John or anybody > else to help me. But John IS asking you, me, and others to help him. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Government-enraging programs
by Jim Gillogly 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

John Young writes: > What would help is a list from experts on what are the most gov-enraging > programs. We'd like to offer a few of those on jya.com, to test BXA's up-and- > running crypto-enforcement program, maybe get some jail and trial pleasure, > it's been too quiet on Bernstein, Junger, Karn, et al, a deliberate gov-stall, > awaiting Wassenaar. One way to determine which programs are the best for this purpose would be to study what various governments have taken some action on. Some obvious ones: PGP (various versions, high level of government interest) Snuffle (extended US litigation) All the AES candidates (strictly-controlled dissemination from NIST) SecureOffice (Charles Booher's program -- US government has taken action) Applied Cryptography disk (US export license denied) It would also be nice to have an infrastructural component, such as (when ready for mass distribution) the Linux/FreeSWAN IPSec release; this doesn't have quite the cachet of programs on which the government has already weighed in, though. -- Jim Gillogly Sterday, 18 Foreyule S.R. 1998, 17:40 12.19.5.13.11, 10 Chuen 4 Mac, First Lord of Night

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Baker on Gilmore's Foil of Wassenaar
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Response to a forward of John Gilmore's message to UK Crypto: Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:50:19 -0500 From: <sbaker(a)steptoe.com> To: <ukcrypto(a)maillist.ox.ac.uk> Subject: Re:Foil to Wassenaar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="simple boundary" I would only add this caution. I think John is wrong in giving legal advice that Wassenaar is not binding without implementing legislation. That is an American approach to these matters. I believe that many, perhaps most, Wassenaar members derive their authority to regulate exports directly from the arrangement itself. For that reason, I would not assume that everyone everywhere is free to ignore the new restrictions until some further law or regulation is promulgated. Stewart Baker Steptoe & Johnson LLP 202.429.6413 sbaker(a)steptoe.com Baker & Hurst, "The Limits of Trust -- Governments, Cryptography, and Electronic Commerce" is now available from http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/9041106359

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Re: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site...
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Save that the cowards have never busted anyone for crypto exports. It's > dead letter law. They know they'd lose a criminal case against a civilian. > > DCF What about the Martinez case? She was convicted of exporting a satellite TV descrambler because of its crypto hardware. Charles Booher is still facing possible prosecution for putting his SecureOffice program on his website. His Grand Jury hearing for possible indictment has been postponed, at last report. Can we be sure that he won't be indicted?

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RE: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site...
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jim Choate wrote: > In effect he's asking YOU to be cannon fodder for his rights. No, he's asking people who are willing to act in their own self-interest to protect the flow of strong crypto. Note he didn't even ask people to do so as civil disobedience (illegally), which I would myself be more than willing to do could I afford the bandwidth and legal fees. If you have no self-interest, then shut up and don't participate. You're in the USS Republic of Texas anyway. Matt "Anyone who fights for the future, lives in it today." --Ayn Rand

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RE: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering <mgering(a)ecosystems.net> > Subject: RE: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site... > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:20:00 -0800 > Jim Choate wrote: > > In effect he's asking YOU to be cannon fodder for his rights. > No, he's asking people who are willing to act in their own self-interest to > protect the flow of strong crypto. Note he didn't even ask people to do so > as civil disobedience (illegally), which I would myself be more than willing > to do could I afford the bandwidth and legal fees. No, what he's asking people to do is provide a mechanism for politicaly controversial material to be made available in areas that are legal for those who are in areas where it isn't legal. If you seriously wish to propose that won't make you a target then you have no clue how LEA's work. While he does this behind the legal protection of EFF he's asking others to do it first person, something he apparently can't find the fortitude to do himself. Further, he's not willing to extend his legal protection to help others. > If you have no self-interest, then shut up and don't participate. You're in > the USS Republic of Texas anyway. What an ignorant statement. When is YOUR CDR node going up (email accounts are about $25/mo)? I've put up and continue to do so, when do you commit and then obtain the morale right to criticize others who are acting in their and YOUR best interest? I'd guess never, that takes a committment. Hell, if it wasn't for Igor and myself you wouldn't in all likelyhood even have this place to bitch. It would have disappered over a year ago. Nobody else (even the the co-creator TC May) was willing to save it. Now we've got 6 nodes (1 in Japan) which makes it very difficult to completely shut down legaly, physicaly, or through acts of God (eg tree falls or fires). You could put up a CDR node and finance it each month by smoking 1/4 ounce less of your pot. It's cheap, cheap, cheap. Piss off junior. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 19:20:34 +0100 > From: Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen(a)stud.uni-muenchen.de> > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd) > I don't know. But maybe Switzerland, a neutral country in wars, I suspect that with their reversal concerning anonymous numbered accounts and other similar changes in their laws and their enforcement that none of the fully developed countries in N. America, W. Europe, Pacific Rim would be good candidates for this sort of shenanigan without some legal backing from the get go. That leaves S. America, Africa, E. Europe, Middle East, India, and China. Not a lot of hope there. If it's not political issues, it's no economies, no modern infrastructure, religious, etc. Besides, do you really want to trust a country that funded the Nazi'a when they claimed neutrality? There continues neutrality is a ruse because it's convenient to trap those who aren't smart enough to ask why they manage to survive when their neighbors are toast. And it ain't because the mountains are high or everyone is armed. Just look at Barbarossa. > such a site could be erected. Of course it is a resource problem. No, it isn't. I fund my entire site for about $600/mo out of my own pocket. ISDN, DNS, 24 hour access, etc. That's cheap for fighting abuses of civil liberties by organizations whose bugdets are measured in big-B's. My main box (einstein) is a 486DX2/80 20M ram, 2G of drive running Linux 1.1.59 for the last 4 years. I just gave away 10 Sun 3/60's and HP/Apollo 400's that would be perfect for this sort of stuff except nobody is willing to do it. People are always giving me machines in the hope that I can either do something with them or can find somebody else who will; They're mighty rare (the people that is). I'm in the process of looking at DirectPC for a means to give my domain a fully functional mobile site. I'm looking at a couple of hundred dollars a month for that over a thousand or so for the hardware. Use Linux and run it off your car (Ok, I've a Brono II so it's a bit more convenient) via a converter. People are pretty intrigued when I put the dish in the back and drive around. Setup is easy, pull the dish from the back and clamp it on the baggage rack and site it. Hook a cell phone up for uplinks and sit back with a 400k max downlink. What's really cool is the dish I've been playing with has a DirectPC lmb and two DSS lmb's as well. The whole setup was less than $500 (minus the DSS tuners). I recognize that say $1k/mo. is a lot for most folks but the real interesting question is why the better funded cpunks aren't doing this sort of stuff when they claim such committment to the cause. Gilmore, TC May, etc. are clearly financialy capable of such activities. Such organizations as EFF and EF-Texas/Georgia clearly could raise these sorts of funds to further their suggestions to the rest of us, yet they don't. The best we get from them is requests for us to do it alone. There are times when I read some of May, Gilmore, Declan, etc. missives and wonder who it is they REALLY work for. Why is it they consistently don't follow through on their own suggestions? > But nowadays storage is getting cheaper. If one has a server machine, > it shouldn't be too big a problem to set up an archive. Yeah, two hours of work and it's there. Dirt simple. > to obtain a compiler and run the installation script. That way > storage space can be highly reduced. I'm buying 3G drives for less than $200 and I checked with John Young's archive and his entire archive is a tad over 200M. My guess is the entire web contents regarding crypto could be put down in a couple of gigs. Technical resources are not the issue. It's finding people who are willing to put themselves in harms way for their beliefs. Very few people have the strength of their convictions (most likely because they don't have any). I'd say most folks are motivated by mental masturbation. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Power Outage in San Fransisco/bay area (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:27:18 -0800 (PST) > From: Max Inux <maxinux(a)bigfoot.com> > Subject: Power Outage in San Fransisco/bay area > Well, we are going on hour 4 now, most of the power is back. One group of > 2-4 employees caused it they say. This was admitted 3 hours later, and > then they knew 15 minutes after it happens.. typical. They expect to be > back on by this afternoon Damn, you beat me to it. I was going to post something about a dry run for Y2K in San Fran. Any rioting? ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Power Outage in San Fransisco/bay area
by Max Inux 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Well, we are going on hour 4 now, most of the power is back. One group of 2-4 employees caused it they say. This was admitted 3 hours later, and then they knew 15 minutes after it happens.. typical. They expect to be back on by this afternoon On the Shell Building at 8:30AM "Building closed, no power. Power will not be restored for 6-8 hours." I wonder how they knew. The estimate is probably about right too, wierd. The mission village sub-station has been re-oppened, and most peoples power is now being revived. Funny how 2-4 people not following procedure were able to shut down 4 substations. Looks like PG&E have lots of work ahead to find out the cause/effect of this type action. Max -- Max Inux <maxinux(a)openpgp.net> New DH and RSA keys Generated. Kinky Sex makes the world go round If crypto is outlawed only outlaws will have crypto

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Altavista hacked
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

It appears that www.altaviata.com has been hacked. Begin Quote: If you are looking for pornographic material (naked people) please Click Here Else please check back with us soon, we are under construction. Thanks. End Quote Resolving *.digital.com DNS entries seems impossible. Any ideas? Wish DNSsec was deployed, it might of prevented this.

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RE: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site... (fwd)
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Further, he's not willing to extend his legal protection to help > others. Has there been any indication that the EFF would not support or help someone being persecuted for crypto-export disobedience? I wouldn't rely on such charity, nor is charity ever obligatory (that's socialism), but what reason do you have to discount it? The essence of civil disobedience is many many individual targets, not one organization. > When is YOUR CDR node going up Fine, if that is the source if your righteousness, I will put one up 1Q99. I won't even play the my network is bigger than your network pissing match, but I will put my money where my mouth is if you think hosting a list node is that big of a deal. I'm am not critical of any contribution, but I will be critical of someone chastising others contributions simply because they would do it differently. A call to arms to protect liberty is not a draft. If you don't want a gun, then don't take it, I won't even call you a Tory. Matt

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RE: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site... (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: Matthew James Gering <mgering(a)ecosystems.net> > Subject: RE: The problem with 'Gilmore's RSAREF' site... (fwd) > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:26:52 -0800 > > Further, he's not willing to extend his legal protection to help > > others. > > Has there been any indication that the EFF would not support or help someone > being persecuted for crypto-export disobedience? I wouldn't rely on such I've asked many times from the local chapter and the answer was always no. The EFF has certainly never offered legal support to anyone in the 8 years or so they've been in existance, well other than Steve Jackson perhaps (I'm not sure if the EFF helped defray any of his court costs). > charity, nor is charity ever obligatory (that's socialism), but what reason > do you have to discount it? > > The essence of civil disobedience is many many individual targets, not one > organization. You should look into the history of civil disobedience then. The ONLY time it works is when it is done via mass involvement. The NAACP and ACLU have been quite effective within their limited areas of interest. Your understanding of the history of civil disobedience is skewed at best. > I'm am not critical of any contribution, but I will be critical of someone > chastising others contributions simply because they would do it differently. > A call to arms to protect liberty is not a draft. If you don't want a gun, > then don't take it, I won't even call you a Tory. Then you should rethink your approach. Somebody asking to put your neck on the block while they won't with their own is no contributor. I believe back in the War of Indipendence THOSE people were called Tory. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Attention: All Sportsmen!!!!!!!!!!
by a14u＠a14u.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Sportsmen, are you into: Hunting, Fishing, Camping, Hiking, Biking, Climbing, Sports, Playing or just Work? Then you'll want to click here! Because you'll love what you see! http://www.a14u.com _______________________________________________________________________________ If you would like to be removed from our mailing list, simply reply with "Remove" in the subject heading. You will be deleted from any further mailing. _______________________________________________________________________________

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FW: Survey Says Kids Feel 'Threatened' By Real Life
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

A survey has suggested that up to one and a half million British children may have been upset by something they have heard or read. The NOP poll shows that one in five of nearly 4,000 children between the ages of six and 16 interviewed for the survey between September and October this year were "uncomfortable" with the state of world affairs. In the UK, 7.2 million children are estimated to be exposed to the outside world - roughly 98% of all children between six and 16. Of those who have had negative experiences while being outside the home, the largest proportion - 40% - had seen something "rude". 'Not surprised' One in seven said they had encountered information that had "freightened them", while 25% heard ideas that "would get them into trouble". NOP Associate Director Rob Lawson described the numbers as a "significant minority". The children's charity NCH Action for Children suggested the survey strengthened calls for censorship to protect younger people. Charity spokesman John Carr said: "I regret to say I'm not surprised by this survey's findings, it's what we have been saying for some time. Censors "Parents need to know their children are learning in safety and security. At the moment, they have no way of knowing that at all." NCH Action for Children, which advises the government on children's issues, backs the introduction of censors - people who filter out ideas unsuitable for children. The survey, called Kids.net, was paid for by Microsoft, the NSA, the GOP, China, and MCI/Worldcom in syndicate. The Department of Trade and Industry's forthcoming review on Internet regulation is expected to be published before Christmas. [satire on news from news.bbs.co.uk]

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Officers face suspension for email offenses: Half of Town's Police Force Involved
by Max Inux 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Chief cleans house after half the Department makes fun of him via email on Patrol Car Computer Terminals (PDC's)... (Plus it's a rally cool website - listen to police scanners while you read FBI FOIA files on people like Frank Sinatra). OAKLAND, N.J. (APB) -- Half of this small borough's police force may be suspended for allegedly using computer terminals in their patrol cars to send one another disrespectful comments about the chief and the borough. http://www.apbonline.com/911/1998/12/06/oakland1206_1.html

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FW: Survey Says Kids Feel 'Threatened' By Real Life
by Matthew James Gering 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Ack, I missed one. Revised: ---------- Subject: FW: Survey Says Kids Feel 'Threatened' By Real Life A survey has suggested that up to one and a half million British children may have been upset by something they have heard or read. The NOP poll shows that one in five of nearly 4,000 children between the ages of six and 16 interviewed for the survey between September and October this year were "uncomfortable" with the state of world affairs. In the UK, 7.2 million children are estimated to be exposed to the outside world - roughly 98% of all children between six and 16. Of those who have had negative experiences while being outside the home, the largest proportion - 40% - had seen something "rude". 'Not surprised' One in seven said they had encountered information that had "freightened them", while 25% heard ideas that "would get them into trouble". NOP Associate Director Rob Lawson described the numbers as a "significant minority". The children's charity NCH Action for Children suggested the survey strengthened calls for censorship to protect younger people. Charity spokesman John Carr said: "I regret to say I'm not surprised by this survey's findings, it's what we have been saying for some time. Censors "Parents need to know their children are learning in safety and security. At the moment, they have no way of knowing that at all." NCH Action for Children, which advises the government on children's issues, backs the introduction of censors - people who filter out ideas unsuitable for children. The survey, called Kids.net, was paid for by Microsoft, the NSA, the GOP, China, and MCI/Worldcom in syndicate. The Department of Trade and Industry's forthcoming review on Thought regulation is expected to be published before Christmas. [satire on news from news.bbs.co.uk]

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Re: Power Outage in San Fransisco/bay area (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:51:01 -0800 (PST) > From: Max Inux <maxinux(a)bigfoot.com> > Subject: Re: Power Outage in San Fransisco/bay area (fwd) > On Tue, 8 Dec 1998, Jim Choate wrote: > >Damn, you beat me to it. I was going to post something about a dry run for > >Y2K in San Fran. > > > >Any rioting? > > Suprisingly, no looting, major accideents (Only one was in the unaffected > Fremont) by Mowry... dont go towards NAI or Great America ;-) Thanks for the feedback. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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wassenar crypto agrmt/wiretapping
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: Jonathan David Boyne <boyne(a)hawaii.edu> To: Undisclosed recipients:; Subject: [exploration] The Wassenaar Invasion of Privacy (fwd) >from: >http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.41/pageone.html ><A HREF="http://www.zolatimes.com/V2.41/pageone.html">Laissez Faire City Times >- Volume 2 Issue 41</A> >The Laissez Faire City Times >December 7, 1998 - Volume 2, Issue 41 >Editor & Chief: Emile Zola >----- >The Wassenaar Invasion of Privacy > >by J. Orlin Grabbe > > >>From the first moment it proclaimed the "information superhighway", the >Clinton administration has waged a wholesale assault on Internet free >speech and privacy. > >The latest blow is the Clinton administration's strong- arming of the 32 >fellow countries of the Wassenaar Arrangement to agree to an export ban >on strong cryptographic (data scrambling) software. The net effect will >be to make it easier for each government to read its own citizen's email >and other private documents. > >Normally if a nation attempts to restrict the domestic sale of strong >encryption software, that attempt is made ineffective by the >availability of strong encryption software from other countries. But >such software won't be available anymore--at least not from one of the >Wassenaar countries, once they have enacted local legislation to >implement the terms of the Wassenaar agreement of December 2. > >The Wassenaar Arrangement is supposed to be an intergovernmental >agreement to restrict international traffic in arms. What does this have >to do with encryption? Simply this: the US government still holds that >secret-code-producing software is a munition. So if you encrypt your >letters and files, and the government hasn't given you permission to use >that caliber encryption, then the person who gave you the encryption >software may be in violation of some regulation on arms dealing. > >"They've plugged a loophole," gleefully proclaimed Ambassador David >Aaron, the President's Special Envoy for Cryptology. The day following >the agreement, the US Department of Commerce issued a press release in >which Aaron spouts gobble-de-gook phrases about a "level playing field" >and about balancing "commercial and privacy interests with national >security and public safety concerns" (see Appendix A for Commerce Dept. >press statement). > >How has this agreement supposedly created a "level playing field" and >helped U.S. industry? Well, namely, by censoring foreign publishers of >cryptology software in the same way that the US government already >censors US publishers. This is similar to arguing that by increasing >tyranny in surrounding countries, we can create a "level playing field" >for freedom. > >"It's ironic, but the US government is leading the charge >internationally to restrict personal privacy and individual liberty >around the world," said Alan Davidson, a staff counsel at the Center for >Democracy and Technology, according to Reuters (see Appendix B for >Reuter's news release). > >A restriction on cryptology is a restriction on free speech. In the >Second World War, the US used native Navaho speakers for secure >communications. Since no one else understood the language, it served as >a powerful secret code. But is what you speak or write in an email >message suddenly not speech or language if the government can't >understand it? If your message says "Xu23MN iilc]z MNBl", does the >government suddenly have the right to imprison you for writing >gibberish? > >While the clear answer is No, nevertheless the US government thinks it >has the right to restrict your "gibberish" if it is produced by >encryption software that it can't crack. The Wassenaar agreement says >encryption software that is "weak" (less than 56 bit keys in some cases, >or less than 64 bit keys in others), so that the government can >unscramble and read the real message underneath the gibberish, is okay, >and in fact frees up some export restrictions on this type of software. >The trade-off? Greater restrictions on software that produces secret >code the government can't read. > >Arms control. It sounds wonderful, doesn't it? Go over to the Wassenaar > web page and take a look. High nobility of purpose, right? "We're >keeping those guns away from the Indians," they proclaim. But what they >mean to say is: "We fully intend to read what is written on the hard >drive of your computer." > >Posting to the cypherpunks mailing list, Timothy May noted: > >I recently heard T. J. Rodgers, CEO of Cypress Semiconductor, repeat his >oft-made point that Silicon Valley and the high tech industry gains >nothing by talking to Washington. That as soon as dialog is started with >Washington, things get worse. This applies as well to crypto, to gun >rights, to everything. Everything Washington touches turns to statist >shit. > >Is there any good news? Enabling legislation has to be enacted in each >country to carry out the terms of the Wassenaar agreement. Raising a hue >and cry with legislators over this latest invasion of privacy should >have a positive effect. > >In the meantime, Mr. "Information Superhighway" Al Gore is poised for a >presidential run, so he can continue to ignore privacy concerns and bend >over for the Big Brother agencies of the national security >establishment. > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Related Links > >The End of Ordinary Money: Part 1 >The End of Ordinary Money: Part 2 > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Appendix A: Commerce Dept. Press Release > > >UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE NEWS > >International Trade Administration > >Washington, DC > >For Immediate Release >Tuesday, December 3, 1998 > >Contact: Maria Harris Tildon > (202)482-3809 > Sue Hofer > (202)482-2721 > >P R E S S S T A T E M E N T > >U.S. Applauds Agreement on Encryption in International Export >Control Regime > >Vienna, Austria -- The United States welcomed the decision taken >Thursday in Vienna by the 33 members of the Wassenaar Arrangement >to modernize and improve multilateral encryption export controls. >Ambassador David Aaron, the President's Special Envoy for Cryptology, >said that "the international agreement reached here goes a long way >toward leveling the playing field for exporters and promoting >electornic commerce. It provides countries with a stronger >regulatory framework to protect national security and public safety." > >The agreement caps a two year effort by the United States, to update >international encryption export controls and to balance commercial >and privacy interests with national security and public safety >concerns. Thursday's agreement simplifies and streamlines controls >on many encryption items and eliminates multilateral reporting >requirements. Specific improvements to multilateral encryption >controls include removing controls on all encryption products at >or below 56 bit and certain consumer entertainment TV systems, such >as DVD products, and on cordless telephone systems designed for >home or office use. > >Wassenaar members also agreed to extend controls to mass-market >encryption above 64 bits, thus closing a significant loophole in >multilateral encryption controls. This gives Wassenaar member >governments the legal authority to license many mass market >encryption software exports which were previously not covered by >multilateral controls and enables governments to review the >dissemination of the strongest encryption products that might >fall into the hands of rogue end users. The new controls also >extend liberalized mass-market hardware below 64 bits. Until >today, only mass-market software products enjoyed this >liberalized treatment. > >"The decisions taken here in Vienna reinforce the Administration's >efforts to promote a balanced encryption policy," Aaron confirmed. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Appendix B: Reuters News Release > > >Thursday, 3 December 1998 12:57:40 > >U.S. claims success in curbing encryption trade > >Aaron Pressman, Reuters, Washington newsroom, 202-898-8312 > >WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Clinton administration officials >Thursday said they had persuaded other leading countries to >impose strict new export controls on computer >data-scrambling products under the guise of arms control. > >At a meeting Thursday in Vienna, the 33 nations that have >signed the Wassenaar Arrangement limiting arms exports -- >including Japan, Germany and Britain -- agreed to impose >controls on the most powerful data-scrambling technologies, >including for the first time mass-market software, U.S. >special envoy for cryptography David Aaron told Reuters. > >The United States, which restricts exports of a wide range of >data-scrambling products and software -- also known as >encryption -- has long sought without success to persuade >other countries to impose similar restrictions. > >``We think this is very important in terms of bringing a level >playing field for our exporters,'' Aaron said. > >Leading U.S. high-technology companies, including Microsoft >Corp. and Intel Corp., have complained that the lack of >restrictions in other countries hampered their ability to >compete abroad. The industry has sought to have U.S. >restrictions relaxed or repealed, but has not asked for tighter >controls in other countries. > >Privacy advocates have also staunchly opposed U.S. export >controls on encryption, arguing that data-scrambling >technologies provided a crucial means of protecting privacy in >the digital age. > >``It's ironic, but the U.S. government is leading the charge >internationally to restrict personal privacy and individual >liberty around the world,'' said Alan Davidson, staff counsel at >the Center for Democracy and Technology, a Washington-based >advocacy group. > >Special envoy Aaron said the Wassenaar countries agreed to >continue export controls on powerful encryption products in >general but decided to end an exemption for widely available >software containing such capabilities. > >``They plugged a loophole,'' Aaron said. > >The new policy also reduced reporting and paperwork >requirements and specifically excluded from export controls >products that used encryption to protect intellectual property >-- such as movies or recordings sent over the Internet -- from >illegal copying, Aaron said. > >Encryption uses mathematical formulas to scramble >information and render it unreadable without a password or >software ``key.'' One important measure of the strength of the >encryption is the length of the software key, measured in bits, >the ones and zeros that make up the smallest unit of computer >data. > >With the increasing speed and falling prices of computers, >data encrypted with a key 40 bits long that was considered >highly secure several years ago can now be cracked in a few >hours. Cutting-edge electronic commerce and communications >programs typically use 128-bit or longer keys. > >Under Thursday's agreement, Wassenaar countries would >restrict exports of general encryption products using more >than 56-bit keys and mass-market products with keys more >than 64 bits long, Aaron said. > >Each country must now draft its own rules to implement the >agreement. > >-30- > >from The Laissez Faire City Times, Vol. 2, No. 41, Dec. 7, 1998 >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >The Laissez Faire City Times is a private newspaper. Although it is >published by a corporation domiciled within the sovereign domain of >Laissez Faire City, it is not an "official organ" of the city or its >founding trust. Just as the New York Times is unaffiliated with the city >of New York, the City Times is only one of what may be several news >publications located in, or domiciled at, Laissez Faire City proper. For >information about LFC, please contact CityClerk(a)LFCity.co > >Published by >Laissez Faire City Netcasting Group, Inc. >Copyright 1998 - Trademark Registered with LFC Public Registrar >All Rights Reserved >----- >Aloha, He'Ping, >Om, Shalom, Salaam. >Em Hotep, Peace Be, >Omnia Bona Bonis, >All My Relations. >Adieu, Adios, Aloha. >Amen. >Roads End >Kris > >DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER >========== >CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic >screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters >and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright >frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects >spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL >gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; >be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and >nazi's need not apply. > >Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > >======================================================================== >To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: >SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] LISTSERV(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM > >To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: >SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] LISTSERV(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM > >Om > - - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sponsored by NextCard Internet Visa. http://ads.egroups.com/click/136/1 Free Web-based e-mail groups -- http://www.eGroups.com - - --------------F29987D12CAF6600E1F2D03D-- - ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- End of Forwarded Message

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libertarians advocate suing govt
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

------- Forwarded Message Subject: Release: Sue the Government? Date: Tue, 08 Dec 98 01:02:13 PST From: announce(a)lp.org To: announce(a)lp.org (Libertarian Party announcements) - - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- ======================================= NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY 2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100 Washington DC 20037 ======================================= For release: December 8, 1998 ======================================= For additional information: George Getz, Press Secretary Phone: (202) 333-0008 Ext. 222 E-Mail: 76214.3676(a)Compuserve.com ======================================= A radical idea: Why can't people sue politicians for their deadly programs? WASHINGTON, DC -- If politicians can sue gun and tobacco companies for damages caused by their products, why can't ordinary Americans sue politicians for the destruction caused by their products: Government programs? "Government programs -- such as wars, exploding automotive air bags, and grisly radiation experiments -- have killed and maimed tens of thousands of Americans over the years," said Steve Dasbach, national director of the Libertarian Party. "Americans shouldn't tolerate a double standard of justice, one for the politicians and one for the people. It's time to start holding the government accountable." What started Libertarians thinking in this direction? The fact that 41 state governments are about to divvy up a $40 billion settlement against tobacco companies, said Dasbach -- and the fact that several big-city mayors are deciding whether to join New Orleans in its lawsuit against gun manufacturers. With those legal actions serving as an inspiration, he said, why not prosecute the government for: * War deaths: "Recent military actions totally unrelated to U.S. national security -- like those in the Persian Gulf, Lebanon, Panama, and Somalia -- have claimed hundreds of American lives," Dasbach said. "If gun company executives can be held liable when criminals use guns irresponsibly, why not hold presidents and Congressmen liable when they use American troops irresponsibly?" * Cancer deaths: "The federal government admitted last year that Cold War nuclear tests exposed 230,000 Americans to high levels of radioactive iodine, and may cause 75,000 people to develop fatal thyroid cancer," Dasbach said. "If it's fair to force tobacco companies to pay for smoking-related illnesses, it's fair to force the government to pay for legislation-related illnesses -- like thyroid cancer." * Air-bag deaths: "According to the federal government, 49 children have been killed by government-mandated air bags," Dasbach said. "Their grieving parents ought to file wrongful-death suits against the Congressmen who demanded this law and the Transportation Department bureaucrats who wrote it." * Alcohol-related deaths: "Eighteen state governments control the liquor stores that operate within their borders," Dasbach said. "So why aren't those state politicians and bureaucrats sued for the cost of every alcohol-related car crash?" * Deaths caused by gun-control laws: "According to a landmark study last year by criminologists John R. Lott and David B. Mustard, the refusal of 24 state governments to pass concealed-carry laws caused an additional 1,414 murders, 4,177 rapes, and 60,363 aggravated assaults in 1992 alone," Dasbach said. "Residents of these states ought to file an immediate injunction to prevent these victim-disarmament laws from causing more innocent blood to be shed." * Deaths caused by criminals on parole: "According to Department of Justice figures, murderers are freed from prison an average of 11.6 years before their full sentence expires; armed robbers are sprung 5 years early; and rapists are back on the streets 5.9 years early," Dasbach said. "The politicians who handed these murderers, robbers, and rapists get-out-of-jail-early cards -- usually so they could fill the jails with people convicted of victimless crimes -- ought to be charged as an accessory to every crime these violent thugs commit." * Gambling-related suicides: "Heavily advertised state-sponsored lotteries siphon billions of dollars a year from America's poor, and are directly responsible for uncountable numbers of gambling-related bankruptcies, suicides, and broken homes," Dasbach said. "Since politicians addicted to taxes are harming vulnerable Americans addicted to gambling, shouldn't the state officials who run these destructive lotteries be held personally responsible?" But Libertarians aren't holding their breath waiting for the government to be brought to justice, Dasbach admitted. "Courts have consistently ruled that government is protected from prosecution by the legal doctrine of sovereign immunity," he said. "According to the courts, death-by-government programs are not against the law. "But wouldn't America be a much safer country if politicians were held to the same standard as any other individual? "Unfortunately, unless that happens, prosecution-proof politicians will continue to escape the consequences of their actions -- while hypocritically sending ordinary Americans off to jail." - - -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNmzhy9CSe1KnQG7RAQES5wP6Ap6aRD4XRSWEEnC+2Vz5+ix8aQg4ss+3 srlja3yDIqsh94SIo1xoIESwZ/61DEpXyvhO/PdJ0xt6wtcFWNkAGbt1VVyr26Tx O+2Qv3NMcHq7ISSMV1SGHYuuRsCuAg/om+PU39NxNfj60eTMpEkPDz0wyAm9XFxu 3c0bMkh+0Zw= =qedo - - -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- The Libertarian Party http://www.lp.org/ 2600 Virginia Ave. NW, Suite 100 voice: 202-333-0008 Washington DC 20037 fax: 202-333-0072 For subscription changes, please mail to <announce-request(a)lp.org> with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" in the subject line -- or use the WWW form. - - -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.inannareturns.com "See God in Every Eye" --Inanna, Goddess of Love V.S. Ferguson author, Inanna Returns and Inanna Hyper-Luminal - - --------------54D4A0A30C2370EF22396E74-- - ------- End of Forwarded Message ------- End of Forwarded Message

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spy cameras
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

------- Forwarded Message Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:18:29 -0500 From: Dan S <dan(a)SOUTHEAST.NET> Subject: [CTRL] Smart spy cameras on the way To: CTRL(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM -Caveat Lector- >From : http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=001036222020742&rtmo=VqqqD8sK&atmo=kkkk… - - Smart spy cameras on the way By Patrick Hook POLICE scientists are close to a major breakthrough that will allow CCTV cameras to "recognise" criminal activity. Using leading-edge neural and pattern recognition technologies, developed for space and defence applications, scientists are confident that it will shortly be possible to police whole areas of the country automatically and alert the authorities to criminal activity. Speaking at a recent London conference organised by the research and development group SIRA, Dr Mike Taylor, head of technology operations at Scotland Yard, said the main barrier to the development of such a system was the quality of the images that were generally produced by existing CCTV equipment.""It is perfectly feasible to develop software which can distinguish certain actions, but the quality of image capture means that it is often difficult to see exactly what is going on," he said. "The quality is, it seems, in direct proportion to the amount of effort that users are prepared to invest in such systems. Since its introduction more than 20 years ago, the need for such technology has increased, and intelligent sensory information processing and information fusing is going to play a very key part in crime management. The next step is to add other sensory devises such as microphones to pick up the sound of breaking glass and sensors that can detect the smell of particular substances and trigger an appropriate response." The work is part of a research programme into an area of security that has been identified by the government's Foresight Challenge as a priority for further study. Drawn from a range of organisations, including the police, the Defence Evaluation and Research Agency and the Home Office, the work of the team is being partly funded by Brussels. Most of the research is centred on the fusing of information from several sources to present a more accurate report of what the CCTV camera has seen. "The additional cost of a microphone or other sensor is not likely to be great," said Taylor, "and should make a significant difference to the ability of the police to detect criminal activity." Not everyone is enthusiastic, however. John Wadham, director of Liberty, said: "It's difficult to see how this kind of technology would work accurately in practice. It could result in officers' time being wasted investigating incidents - and indeed individuals - which turn out to be entirely innocent. I do wonder whether we have enough surveillance already. Surveillance technology is better at protecting property than people and is still not adequately regulated to protect privacy." - -- dan(a)southeast.net DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ======================================================================== To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] LISTSERV(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] LISTSERV(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM Om ------- End of Forwarded Message

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Re: Wei Dei's "b-money" protocol
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

x(a)x.com asks about Wei Dei's b-money proposal: >there must be something here that I'm missing. At the core of this >protocol seems to be the establishment not of crypto anarchy but of a >crypto elite. in this scheme only the processors of computing power have >economic power. Now I realize that our current economic system is based on >economic power being invested in a closed community of powerful elites, and >is by no means egalitarian, but this looks to be like simply substituting >one group of "haves" for a different group of "haves" > >I have to admit not being familiar with the Orthodoxy of crypto anarchy, >but if the premise is a centerless self organizing system of free agents >this protocol seems to miss the mark. or what is it that I am missing here? The description is intended to show how money is transferred, and how it is created. These are technically difficult issues when dealing with electronic money, and that is what the proposal addresses. It is not anticipated that most people will make money by using their computing power. That feature is only used when the money supply needs to expand, because of increased economic activity. Instead, people will generally get money the same way they do today: someone will give it to them, either as a gift or as payment. You are free to give your money to whomever you want to, and you are free to offer your goods and services in exchange for money. Such exchanges of money should be much greater in volume than the amount of new money which is created by burning computer cycles.

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Reinsch On Crypto/Wassenaar
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Excerpt from a speech by BXA's William Reinsch on December 7, 1998, at the Practising Law Institute conference "Coping with U.S. Export Controls." Note final paragraph about detailed crypto session today -- no report on that yet. Full speech: http://jya.com/war120798-2.htm Also by him yesterday on crypto: http://jya.com/war120798.htm [Begin excerpt] Encryption continues to be a hotly debated issue. As I stated last year, the U.S. continues to support a balanced approach to encryption policy which considers privacy and commercial interests as well as protecting law enforcement and national security interests. Furthermore, we also remain committed to promoting the growth of global electronic commerce through secure financial and business communications. Our position has always been to seek industry-led, market-driven solutions to achieve a balanced approach. What has changed is the direction where technology and the market place are taking us. Key recovery technology remains a very important part of our policy; however, over the past two years, we have recognized that key recovery is not a solution for all problems. That recognition, brought about in part as a result of our ongoing dialogue with industry, has helped us also focus on recoverable technologies that can enable law enforcement to continue its authorized activities. As a result, on September 16, Vice President Gore unveiled a policy update, which will not end the debate, but which does include steps to further streamline exports of key recovery products and other recoverable products which allow law enforcement, under proper legal authority, recovery of plain text. The update also provides for 1) the export of 56 bit DES worldwide to any end user under a license exception; 2) exports of strong encryption to U.S. companies and their subsidiaries under a license exception; 3) exports of strong encryption to the insurance and medical sectors in 45 countries under a license exception; and 4) exports of strong encryption to secure on-line transactions between on-line merchants and their customers in 45 countries under a license exception. This is consistent with our earlier announcement relating to financial institutions. This is an evolutionary process and we intend to continue our dialogue. We must continue to adapt to changes, and we will review our policies again within the year to determine whether further change is necessary. We intend to publish regulations implementing the Vice President's announcement this month. With respect to developing a common international approach to encryption policy, Ambassador David Aaron, our special envoy on cryptography, is working with other countries to ensure that our policies are compatible. He has found that most major producing countries have public safety and national security concerns similar to ours and are interested in developing a harmonized international approach regarding compatible infrastructures for electronic commerce and for a key management infrastructure. At last week's Wassenaar Arrangement plenary session, the participating states approved a number of changes to modernize and improve multilateral encryption export controls. These changes removed controls on products below 56 bits and on certain consumer entertainment systems, such as DVD products, and on cordless phone systems designed for home or office use. Most important, participating states agreed to extend controls to mass-market encryption exports above 64 bits, thus closing a significant loophole. This will enable governments to review the dissemination of the strongest encryption products that otherwise might fall into the hands of rogue end users. For those of you deeply interested in the details of our encryption policy, we have a specific session devoted to it tomorrow. [End excerpt]

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[CTRL] Feds And FDIC To Monitor All Your Personal Financial Activities
by Vladimir Z. Nuri 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: DrErebus(a)AOL.COM Subject: [CTRL] Feds And FDIC To Monitor All Your Personal Financial Activities Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 10:11:25 EST To: CTRL(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM -Caveat Lector- Feds And FDIC To Monitor All Your Personal Financial Activities 12-1-98 The following is direct quote from the first page of FDIC document (6174-01) (12 CFR Part 326) Notice of proposed rulemaking. "SUMMARY: The FDIC is proposing to issue a regulation requiring insured nonmember banks to adopt and maintain "Know Your Customer" programs. As proposed, the regulation would require each nonmember bank to develop a program designed to determine the identity of its customers; determine its customers' sources of funds; determine the normal and expected transactions of its customers; monitor account activity for transactions that are inconsistent with those normal and expected transactions; and report any transactions of its customers that are determined to be suspicious, in accordance with the FDIC's existing suspicious activity reporting regulation. ---" The things to be very concerned about in this case are the PROFILE PARAMETERS that in turn define the various limits that when exceed, qualify as an exception to the norm and thus must be reported to another federal agency, as a suspicious transaction. There is virtually no limit to the number or type of profile parameters that can be established. For example, is the customer an 8 foot tall white male weighing in excess of 400 pounds or is the customer a four foot tall black female weighing less than 90 pounds. The question or questions (and there are many questions) then becomes, who will be responsible for establishing, defining and controlling the limitless number of possible profile parameters? Who will be responsible for adding, changing and deleting established profile parameters? Who will be responsible for insuring that this awesome and massive capability will not be misused and abused by the various departments of the Federal Government. In other words, is the 8 foot tall white male an exception to the norm or is the 4 foot tall black female the exception or, are both the upper limit and the lower limit considered as an exception to the norm. How about all those in between? As noted in the quoted SUMMARY of the document identified above, the "key operative statements" are as follows; 1. Identify its customers. 2. Determine its customers' source of funds. 3. Determine the normal and expected transactions of its customers. 4. Monitor account activity for transactions that are inconsistent with those normal and expected transactions. 5. Report any transactions of its customers that are determined to be suspicious ---. Before we briefly examine the five individual requirements noted above, and so that you will understand where"I" am coming from, please be aware of the fact that, in addition to being a Baptist Preacher, I have been a Data Processing Systems Analyst for some 48+ years. At least half of that time was spent working for the Federal Government, designing and installing total Data Processing Facilities, from the Presidents Battle Staff, to the Congress, to the Department of defense, to the local Church name and address data base. I have written and taught several college courses: (a) Management of Data Processing Facilities and (b) Systems Analysis. One of the first things that I always tell the new students in my Systems Analysis class is "In the field of electronic data processing, your only limitation is you own imagination. If you can rationalize it in your mind, 'electronic' data processing can do it." Now, given that background and qualifications let me tell you, in no uncertain terms, -- I know exactly what the Federal Government is up to. I know exactly what information they are looking for; I know exactly how to get that information and I know exactly how they plan to eventually use that information. Requirement # 1: Identify its customers. I have no problem with this requirement so long as that identifying information is limited to name, mailing address and an account number generated by the "local" financial institution and assigned to a particular account to provide unique identification, but absolutely nothing more. Requirement # 2: Determine its customers' source of funds. This I have a BIG problem with. Even though the government would like for you to believe that this requirement is related to identifying "possible" illegal money laundering by drug traffickers, that is not the only reason they want to know the source of your finances. Remember now, the ultimate objective of the vast majority of government regulations and programs are directed at controlling the "individual." This item required that you advise the bank of all the sources that you will be receiving money from that you will be depositing in this particular account. We will expand this item in more detail below. Requirement # 3. Determine the normal and expected transactions of its customers. For purposed of this discussion we will consider only four primary parameters related to deposits and withdrawals against this particular account. First: When you established a new checking account you will be required to identify the number of deposits you expect to make each month and the average amount of each deposit. For example (a) military retirement pay = $2,000.00, (b) Social Security Income = $400.00, (c) Rent from income property = $750.00, (d) Interest from stocks & bonds = $ 300.00, and so on. Second: You will be required to identify the number of withdrawals you expect to make each month from this account and the estimated amount of each withdrawal. For example; (a) Mortgage payment=$ 800.00, (b) Car Payment = $250.00, (c) College tuition = $ 1,000.00). Once the average number of deposits and the average amount of each deposit has been determined and the average number of withdrawals and the average amount of each withdrawal has been established, it will be very easy to identify all transactions, in and out, that exceed the established norms for this particular account. For example should you find a paper bag on the side of the highway containing 10,000 well used one dollar bills, or Aunt Sue passed away and left you 10,000 well used one dollar bills and you deposited that windfall in your checking or savings account, that would immediately be detected as exceeding the established norms for your account. Requirement # 4. Monitor account activity for transactions that are inconsistent with those normal and expected transactions. This requirement establishes the requirement that each financial institution establish a procedure to monitor your financial accounts on a regular basis for any transactions that exceed the established norms as illustrated above. Requirement # 5. Report any transactions of its customers that are determined to be suspicious ---. This requirement requires that all financial institutions immediately report any and all suspicious transactions detected as a result of deposits or withdrawals that exceed the established norms for your account. As I was reviewing the aforementioned FDIC document, as quoted above, I called a long time friend of mine who is vice president of a local bank that I do business with. I ask my vice president friend to identify the government agency(s) to which he would report such a suspicious transaction. His response was, the IRS and the FBI, at the national level. My friends, as a long time ADP/EDP Systems Analyst I want you to pay particular attention to the following. Whenever a good and successful Information (Data) Processing Systems Analyst designs a large scale information processing system, such as what we have been talking about above, he will ALWAYS allow for future expansion of "existing" applications and processing capabilities and his design work will also allow for "additional" applications and processing capabilities to be added with a minimum of additional effort and cost. Based on my 48+ plus years in the business, let me tell you what you can expect in the very near future if the proposed "rulemaking" provisions as defined in the FDIC document identified above are allowed to be implemented. Please, read the following very carefully because it lays out the route our government is taking toward a cashless society as required by the design of a one world government under the United Nations. 1. PRESENTLY ALL recipients of military retirement pay MUST have a bank account into which their monthly retirement pay is electronically transferred. The government will no longer pay individual retirees directly, or send their retirement pay to a home address. This is part of an over all plan to extended more absolute control over the individual. It has absolutely nothing to do with economy as the government would have you to believe. 2. In the very near future look for legislation that will "require" ALL government employees, federal, state and local, to have a bank account into which their salary will also be electronically transferred, just like the retired military. In as much as most government employees already have the direct deposit option available, it requires only vary simple legislation to complete this phase of the plan. 3. Next you will see legislation that will outlaw the direct payment of all wages or salaries to any individual, by an employer. All employees who work for a wage or salary, will also be required to have a bank account into which the employer will be required to direct deposit their salary. And once again the legislation necessary to accomplish phase of the plan is very simple and easy to implement, simply because most business would welcome the reduced payroll cost. The governments objective here is to eventually make the local financial institution the only source of legal tender for the individual. At this point and for the purpose of this paper, legal tender is defined as dollars, debit cards or other credit cards. When objectives 2 & 3 above have been fully accomplished, it will then be a very simple matter to implement the rest of the plan. Let me explain it this way. The total plan equates to $1.00 (One dollar) When steps 2 & 3 have been fully implemented, as step 1 has already been accomplished, that will equate to $ .95 cents of that $1.00. The rest of the plan equates to only 5 cents out of that one dollar. And just what is the rest of the plan? It's very simple. After steps 1, 2 and 3 as noted above have been fully implemented, the only thing left to do then would be to outlaw all cash transactions and require all transactions now involving cash, be accomplished through the use of checks or smart cards followed by the eventual elimination of the checks. At that point the federal government can then trace, track AND CONTROL ALL TRANSACTIONS, simply because all transactions will then be processed by massive computer systems controlled by the federal government. Given the above accomplishments and current electronic capabilities, the ability to exercise absolute control over "individuals" provided by the additional five cents noted above are absolutely mind boggling. There are many, many more reasons that all Americans should and must oppose implementation of the five (5) requirements identified above. There are TWO things that every American should do, immediately. First: All Americans should send a letter to the FDIC expressing their STRONG objection and opposition to the plan to PROFILE individual bank accounts for what ever purpose. The FDIC will be accepting public comments until December 27. Send your comments to: Robert E. Feldman, Executive Secretary Attention: Comments/OES, FDIC 550 17th Street, NW Washington, DC 20429 --- Spectre <temporal(a)earthlink.net 12-3-98 Hi Jeff: Found this site about the new FDIC "Know your Customer" regulations: http://www.bankinfo.com/compliance/newkyc.html Seems to me the laws and regulations can be interpreted to mean a lot and I wouldn't completely discount the article you posted on your web page as a complete hoax, if you read the article.: PARTS from that page below: " By requiring banking organizations to determine the true identity of their customers, as well as to obtain knowledge regarding the legitimate activities of their customers, the proposed regulations will reduce the likelihood that banking organizations will become unwitting participants in illicit activities conducted or attempted by their customers." "While it is impossible to identify every transaction at a financial institution that is potentially illegal or is being conducted to assist criminals in the movement of illegally derived funds, it is fundamental for safe and sound operations that financial institutions take every reasonable measure to identify their customers, understand the legitimate transactions to be conducted by those customers and, consequently, identify those transactions conducted by their customers that are unusual or suspicious in nature. By identifying and, when appropriate, reporting such transactions, in accordance with existing suspicious activity reporting requirements, financial institutions are protecting their integrity and are assisting the efforts of the bank regulatory agencies and law enforcement authorities to thwart illicit activities at financial institutions." "The Board has long advocated that one of the most effective means by which a financial institution can both protect itself from engaging in transactions designed to facilitate illicit activities and ensure compliance with applicable suspicious activity reporting requirements is for the institution to have adequate "Know Your Customer" policies and procedures" "In the Board's view, a financial institution should take the necessary and reasonable steps to determine the true identity of its customers, their sources of funds, and their normal and expected transactions and to identify unusual or suspicious activities". ------ Please excuse my distress, but often times the best-intentioned people are quick to jump and call something a "Hoax," which unfortunately misleads people, when just the opposite is true. Being very familiar with legal research, it was simple for me to determine if the the e-mail sent to you by Mr. Gene Ingram [gene(a)cup.hp.com] declaring the post the "Feds and FDIC to Monitor All Your Personal Financial Activities" a hoax; and to see if Mr. Ingram was presumptively correct in his analysis. The most impmrtant point you should know it was stated in the beginning of the article in re the "Feds and FDIC" that this was a *proposed rule* being submitted by the FDIC "...requiring insured nonmember banks to adopt and maintain "Know Your Customer" programs." ALL proposed rules submitted by any federal agency must first be sent to the Federal Register for publication under the *notice* rules. >From the wording of this "Sunshing Act Meeting" chaired by the Board of Governors for the Federal Reserve System, the FDIC is "only following orders." Please find below a replica of the *notice*: ________________________________________________________________ [Federal Register: September 28, 1998 (Volume 63, Number 187)] [Notices] [Page 51579] >From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access [http://www.wais.access.gpo.gov] [DOCID:fr28se98-60] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM Sunshine Act Meeting Agency Holding the Meeting: Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System. Time and Date: 10:00 a.m., Thursday, October 1, 1998. Place: Marriner S. Eccles Federal Reserve Board Building, C Street entrance between 20th and 2lst Streets, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20553. Status: Open. Matters to be Considered: Summary Agenda: Because of its routine nature, no discussion of the following item is anticipated. This matter will be voted on without discussion unless a member of the Board requests that the item be moved to the discussion agenda. 1. Publication for comment of proposed amendments to Regulation H (Membership of State Banking Institutions in the Federal Reserve Qystem), Regulation K (International Banking Operations), and Regulation Y (Bank Holding Companies and Change in Bank Control) to require domestic and foreign banking organizations to develop and maintain ``Know Your Customer'' programs. 2. Any items carried forward from a previously announced meeting. Discussion Agenda: None. No Discussion Items Are Scheduled For This Meeting. Note: If an item is moved from the Summary Agenda to the Discussion Agenda, discussion of the item will be recorded. Cassettgs will then be available for listening in the Board's Freedom of Information Office, and copies can be ordered for $6 per cassette by calling 202-452-3684 or by writing to: Freedom of Information Office, Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System, Washington, D.C. 20551. Contact Person for More Information: Lynn S. Fox, Assistant to the Board; 202-452-3204. Supplementary Information: You may call 202-452-3006 for a recorded announcement of this meeting; or you may contact the Board's Web site at http://www.federalreserve.gov for an electronic announcement. (The Web site also includes procedural and other information about the open meeting.) Dated: September 24, 1998. Robert deV. Frierson, Associate Secretary of the Board. [FR Doc. 98-25960 Filed 9-24-98; 11:19 am] BILLING CODE 6210-01-P ___________________________________________________________ The rule[s] will not be published in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) until the proposed rule[s] is finalized. These rule changes will be to Regulations H, K and Y pertaining to Banking administration procedures. The proposed changes *may* be all inclusive within 12 CFR 326 - I wouldn't begin to guess until the final rules are drafted. Perhaps this is the reason why Mr. Ingram was unable to find what he was looking for. In the interim, I suggest caution, research and a thoroughly checking your sources before labeling anything a *Hoax* or stating something as fact if you don't know first hand or from personal experience. If anything, the obvious fact this determination was dictated by the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System ...well, I'll leave that to your readers to decide the relevancy or merit of the Board's decree. If you would like additional information, please feel free to contact me. Lynn Shaffer fadaar(a)psn.net DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ========== CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ======================================================================== To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] LISTSERV(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] LISTSERV(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM Om

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CALL 1-800-HOT-PUSSY....CALL NOW!!
by 54+6 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Survey Says Citizens Feel 'Threatened' By Government
by HyperReal-Anon 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

A survey has suggested that up to half a million American citizens may have been upset by something they have heard about the government. The USG poll shows that one in five of nearly 4,000 citizens between the ages of six and 16 interviewed for the survey between September and October this year were "uncomfortable" with some content heard about the government. In the US, 60 million citizens are estimated to know who Clinton actually is - roughly a third of all citizens between 18 and 60. Of those who have had negative experiences with the government, the largest proportion - 40% - has seen something "unconstitutional." 'Not surprised' One in seven said they had encountered unconstitutional actions that "freightened them", while 25% saw actions that they thought "would get them into jail." USG Associate Shill Rob Lawson described the numbers as a "significant minority". The citizen's charity DNC Welfare for Deadbeats suggested the survey strengthened calls for government regulation to protect the eyes of citizens. Libertarian spokesman John Carr said: "I regret to say I'm not surprised by this survey's findings, it's what we have been saying for some time." Government nannies "Big Brothers need to know their citizens are looking for pro-USG information in safety and security. At the moment, they have no way of knowing that at all." DNC Welfare for Deadbeats, which steals from the citizens to give to those who are multiplying like rabbits with no means to provide for their offspring, and advises the government to spend more money and to legislate special privlidges for some citizens who are "disadvantaged," backs the introduction of "Big Brothers" - laws which filter out content unsuitable for citizens. The survey, called TLA.net, was paid for by Microsoft, the NOW, NAI and KRAP in syndicate. The Ministry of Truth and Propoganda's forthcoming review on Internet regulation is expected to be published before Christmas. [from news.propoganda.us]

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Re: Power Outage in San Fransisco/bay area
by FitugMix 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Sounds to me like a practice-run for Y2K. Max Inux wrote: > > Well, we are going on hour 4 now, most of the power is back. One group of > 2-4 employees caused it they say. This was admitted 3 hours later, and > then they knew 15 minutes after it happens.. typical. They expect to be > back on by this afternoon > > On the Shell Building at 8:30AM > > "Building closed, no power. Power will not be restored for 6-8 hours." > > I wonder how they knew. The estimate is probably about right too, wierd. > > The mission village sub-station has been re-oppened, and most peoples > power is now being revived. Funny how 2-4 people not following procedure > were able to shut down 4 substations. Looks like PG&E have lots of work > ahead to find out the cause/effect of this type action. > > Max > -- Max Inux <maxinux(a)openpgp.net> New DH and RSA keys Generated. > Kinky Sex makes the world go round > If crypto is outlawed only outlaws will have crypto

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German government press release on Wassenaar
by ulf＠fitug.de 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Press release from the Ministry of Economy http://www.bmwi.de/presse/1998/1208prm2.html, my translation: Export control for encryption technology loosened No "key recovery" for cryptographic products At their plenary meeting on December 2nd and 3rd 1998 the 33 treaty states of the Wassenaar Arrangement have decided to revise the export control for encryption technologies (cryptographic products). Export control has been loosened, and the embodiment of crypto restrictions has been hindered. Thus there will be no export ban for encryption products in the future. The previously comprehensive control characterized by a large number of sectoral exceptions has been replaced by a positively formulated list text. In future all kinds of products - hardware and software are treated in the same way - are only subject to export control starting at a key length of 56 bits. Mass market products that fulfill certain requirements are subject to export control only up from a key length of 64 bits. For the present the restriction to 64 bits is valid for two years, it must then be renewed unanimously or it will be cancelled. In addition, methods such as digital signatures and authentication as well as certain product groups such as wireless phones and pay TV devices are completely exempted from export control. The regulation concerning freely available products (public domain) has remained unchanged. Certain states that had initially demanded special treatment for "key recovery" products have not have been unsuccessful. Thus the export of encryption technology will remain possible without depositing keys with government agencies. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >From an AP news report, my translation [The Green Party is part of the new German government, but the Ministry of Economy is led by the Social Democrats]: Green Party member of parliament Hans-Christian Ströbele critisized that the government gave in to US pressure for stronger control on encryption. The agreement would affect the obvious need of computer users to protect their business and private communication from unauthorized access. Also the business opportunities of German producers of powerful encryption software would be reduced in a serious way. Thus when implementing the agreement in national law, negative effects must be limited as much as possible.

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German government press release on Wassenaar (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Subject: German government press release on Wassenaar > Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 06:04:18 +0100 (+0100) > From: ulf(a)fitug.de (Ulf =?iso-8859-1?Q?M=F6ller?=) > authentication as well as certain product groups such as wireless > phones and pay TV devices are completely exempted from export > control. The regulation concerning freely available products (public > domain) has remained unchanged. Is there any mention of wireless networking devices? ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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News on Wassenaar anyone?
by Jan Garefelt 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Does anyone have information on the new Wassenaar arrangement, or information on when official information will be available? I'm only interested in the crypto parts, and I have already read the Aaron/Reuter story found on http://www.crypto.com/reuters/show.cgi?article=912708583 Thanks /Jan Garefelt

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No Subject
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"Vladimir Z. Nuri" wrote: > > ------- Forwarded Message > > Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:18:29 -0500 > From: Dan S <dan(a)SOUTHEAST.NET> > Subject: [CTRL] Smart spy cameras on the way > To: CTRL(a)LISTSERV.AOL.COM > > -Caveat Lector- > > >From : > http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=001036222020742&rtmo=VqqqD8sK&atmo=kkkk… > - - > Smart spy cameras on the way > > ... > "The quality is, it seems, in direct proportion to the amount of effort > that users are prepared to invest in such systems. Since its > introduction more than 20 years ago, the need for such technology has > increased, and intelligent sensory information processing and > information fusing is going to play a very key part in crime management. > The next step is to add other sensory devises such as microphones to > pick up the sound of breaking glass and sensors that can detect the > smell of particular substances and trigger an appropriate response." > ... [much deleted] I think we read a message not so long ago from a 'punk who spotted the prototype of these 'bomb-sniffing cameras' along a California highway, no? #!/usr/local/bin/perl -0777-- -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RC4-3-lines-PERL @k=unpack('C*',pack('H*',shift));for(@t=@s=0..255){$y=($k[$_%@k]+$s[$x=$_ ]+$y)%256;&S}$x=$y=0;for(unpack('C*',<>)){$x++;$y=($s[$x%=256]+$y)%256; &S;print pack(C,$_^=$s[($s[$x]+$s[$y])%256])}sub S{@s[$x,$y]=@s[$y,$x]}

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Re: Wei Dei's "b-money" protocol
by Dave Birch 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Wei Dai said >However if it did become mainstream I think there are some >interesting macroeconomic questions here. Will prices really be stable as >they're designed to be? Will there be business cycles? What is the optimum >inflation/deflation rate? Perhaps a solution is to fix not on a basket of commodities, or equities, but on provision of future service (much like Frequent Flier miles). Suppose the money is demoninated in Mb of web hosting (I've no idea whether this would be a good choice as I just made it up). Then you know you'll get what you want in terms of service, irrespective of the inflation/deflation. Sure, if web space inflates against the dollar then that's a problem (for people with dollars). But suppose you could accumulate the things that you actually want rather than specie (as a proxy)? Consider this as a thought experiment. Microsoft issue m$, each m$ being worth 1 minute of Microsoft technical support. People who need Microsoft technical support would buy m$ (big companies would know roughly how much they might need) whereas people who don't need or want it would sell m$. Instead of storing up dollars, the value of which might fluctuate (especially since Microsoft could change the price of technical support whenever they want), companies now have a firm fix. Just an idea. Regards, Dave Birch. === mailto:daveb@hyperion.co.uk ===== http://www.hyperion.co.uk/ ===

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Ber
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I think Arnold Reinhold has the right idea, 100% - only post plain-English versions of algorithms. To paraphrase: "Banning plain-English instructions for building your own crypto software will require the starkest abridgement of the First Amendment." Force their hand. Make them spell it out in the harshest black and white. It is the only way to get the clueless sheeple to figure out what it really going on. Jim Choate is also right. Empower _everyone_ to write their own code, regardless of mathematical skill. Spell it out so simply that people with access to only BASIC can do it in their living room while watching TV. Yeah, so we appeal to "the lowest common denomiator." Face it, that's 95% of the population, and we have to get them on our side. Jim Choate wrote: > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:41:33 -0500 > > From: John Young <jya(a)pipeline.com> > > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Ber > > > Yes, Gilmore's proposal was to mirror the contents; URLs threaten > > no reg-makers. > > > > Yep, mirrors of everything would be very large. We've heard already > > that folks would like help in knowing what to mirror if they can't do > > large archives, or can't easily decide which are most important. > > [text deleted] > > > What would help is a list from experts on what are the most gov-enraging > > programs. We'd like to offer a few of those on jya.com, to test BXA's up-and- > > running crypto-enforcement program, maybe get some jail and trial pleasure, > > it's been too quiet on Bernstein, Junger, Karn, et al, a deliberate gov-stall, > > awaiting Wassenaar. > > Besides enraging, it should also include the necessary documents, > monographs, libraries, etc. to empower others to write the code within their > own legal boundaries. > > If somebody makes the effort to compile such a list I'd like to personaly > request they include this in addition to finished product. > > ____________________________________________________________________ > > If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me > in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, > it is: bullying > Howard Zinn > > The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate > Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com > www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 > -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- > --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Web Hosting Providers in Many Countries? For crypto archives.
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

John Gilmore has proposed setting up crypto archives in many countries to avoid Wassenaar restriction problems. Does anybody have a good source for information on web hosting providers or other ISPs in a variety of countries around the world? Shell accounts are nicer, because it's easier to create servers that check where the request is coming from, for countries that insist you only provide access to their citizens but still allow you to do that on a web site. The US doesn't appear to have strictly defined legal requirements for such sites (YET) and places like MIT have gotten quite flexible about it. Also, are there any good sources of relatively private VISA credit cards, preferably outside the US, that can be used to rent computer accounts with? There are other crypto distribution methods that, while slower, are still legal from the US - censoring printed books embarasses them a bit still, though some other countries don't have the same squeamishness even though they may be less interested in banning the material. Printing PGP source books was annoying, but a week's delay in shipping few-page crypto subroutines isn't that serious, especially if it's in a scanner-friendly format. Any guess how the various countries feel about faxes of source code? And, of course, shipping or even selling source for 40-bit RC4 and 512-bit RSA is pretty simple, even if you don't include the note "WARNING: DO NOT CHANGE THE #define KEYLENGTH TO 128 OR THE #define MODULUSLENGTH TO 2048 AND RECOMPILE" Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, bill.stewart(a)pobox.com PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639

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Lecture Notes in Computer Science - free online Access
by Nobody 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This Mail contains user ID and password! ------------------------------------------------------------ User ID: lncs password: uid387xf ------------------------------------------------------------ Please keep in mind that: - you agreed to keep these confidential - systematic download is not permitted! ------------------------------------------------------------ Your personal data as used in the registration form: Surname: cypherpunks Christian name: cypherpunks Institution/Company: cypherpunks Department: cypherpunks Streat/POBox: 101 cypherpunks drive City: cypherpunks Post Code: 00000 Country Code: BOLI Phone: FAX: LINK Number: ------------------------------------------------------------ from: link.springer.de/Lecture Notes in Computer Science

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ACT NOW!!! Web Site Submission
by harmike＠discruise.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built BerlinWalls
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

--- begin forwarded text To: John Young <jya(a)pipeline.com> Cc: cryptography(a)c2.net, John Gilmore <gnu(a)toad.com> Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 19:36:23 -0500 From: Dan Geer <geer(a)world.std.com> Sender: owner-cryptography(a)c2.net Tradeoff time. ==== Q: Is it better for the providers of crypto resources to alarm/log accesses to their websites or not? I'd strongly argue not; Team Despot will disguise itself and we are surveilled as we speak; Team Legion loses if it creates targets for harvesting. ==== Q: Is coordinated integrity control (code signing) a Good Thing? I'd weakly argue not; The absence of a coordinated signing strategy does not preclude verification so avoiding common-mode fraud, e.g., long-running denial of service attacks on the central signing agent, seems advantageous. Alternative argument; Integrity of crypto code can be signed via quorumed split-key means so that no single actor fraud is effective yet only the minimum quorum need be online at any given time; this has the advantage that a completed split-key signature cannot be attributed to which quorum subset made it yet is verifiable by ordinary client means once complete. Since intermediate (partial signing) results do not leak fragment holder identity, quorum members can indirectly communicate through commonly held dead-drops. ==== Q: Should requestors routinely avoid surveilled identification? I'd argue strongly for: We, Team Legion, must commit to a cell organization with pseudonymity coverage such as through the "Crowds" system; to avoid any one of us being guilty we must all be. ==== Getting the problem statement right for this endeavor is the most important thing we have left to do. If the above sample is misguided, say so. To the extent it is incomplete, fix it. If one of us goes off the air, step into their place. It is time for us to walk the fine line between undue paranoia and a heightened state of awareness. --dan --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah(a)philodox.com> Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/> 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity, [predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

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Between our..
by Pete 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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No Subject
by Anonymous 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I think setting up mirror sites of crypto archives across the world is a great idea. However, I also think we need to focus on getting more and more people to use crypto. I would guess that the vast majority of computer users worldwide see no use for encryption in their day-to-day lives -- and even those that do don't also use it. If everybody in the world is using encryption, it is going to be extremely difficult for "democratic" governments to tell them they can't use it any more. Unfortunately, it's easy for governments to blame crypto for terrorism and a host of other crimes, simply because the average citizen doesn't understand the concept of an "electronic envelope".

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Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 13:59:20 +0100 > From: Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen(a)stud.uni-muenchen.de> > Subject: Re: Building crypto archives worldwide to foil US-built Berlin Walls (fwd) > I don't see why you have to pose such severe selection criteria. Because those are the issues that will determine success. > As long as a number of countries don't yet have export regulations, Which doesn't mean they won't hassle the operators with various techniques in order to pursuade them it's a bad idea to continue. > If the 'economies', 'infrastructure' 'religon' and what not of the > countries do not (yet) affect crypto laws, why care about them? If They effect crypto by defintion. > at a later point of time some of these countries do have crypto laws, If they don't have crypto laws it's likely they don't have a lot of other sorts of laws and the social and economic structure those laws imply. This makes it very difficult to operate a archive with any sort of stability or protection. > well, simply close down the archive there and let the sites in the And what about the costs and effects incurred by that person you so glibly throw away? > Much more important is to discuss how to solve the finacial problem There is NO financial problem. It costs hundreds of dollars to purchase the hardware. The connectivity is less than $100 a month in most parts of the world. It simply isn't expensive or economicaly challenging. That ISN'T the problem and should recieve scant attention while these other issues are extant. Bottem line, if you can't afford to put up a box then you're not going to be able to afford to deal with the other issues such activities incur mainly because you're going to be too busy trying to pay your housing and food costs. In that situation you've better things to do with your time then run an archive site. ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ____________________________________________________________________ If I can put in one word what has always infuriated me in any person, any group, any movement, or any nation, it is: bullying Howard Zinn The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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