December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi. The cypherpunks list is going through some major rearrangements, and it appears that we need a bi-directional mail-news gateway for the new group alt.cypherpunks and for whatever list(s) come out of the clouds of dust. (The list(s) in question may be done in a distributed fashion across many different machines, to lessen volume (1000+ subscribers, 100+ messages a day), crash vulnerablity, and other problems.) Anybody have experience in running a _really_ high-volume mail-news gateway (or in running distributed lists)? Please cc: any replies to cypherpunks(a)toad.com. Thanks, -Allen

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Cypherpunks Mailing List
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Mr. Gilmore I know that this list has become something of a dead albatross with you, but I was wondering if you would be willing to do the whole of us another favor. As you have stated that this list will no longer reside on your machine any longer. And as several people have put forward thier own machines upon which to host this forum in the future. And as there are people who, though not currently subscribed, know about the list and may wish to subscribe to the list in the future. Could you please maintain at least the semblence of a list on your machine. Not the actual list, but a pointer triggered by a post or majordomo request concerning cypherpunks. In this way, persons not currently subscribed but knowledgeable about the list can find it in the future. Such a system should be easy to set up, given that you probably already have autoresponder bots in your hard drive, and would be a great service. Would you please rig such a system after your deadline in place of the list to point to which ever system currently has the most alternate traffic? This would only need to be an interim measure as after a reasonably short length of time people would get the idea that the list has moved. Thank you for entertaining this request.

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Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:22 EDT > From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH(a)ocelot.rutgers.edu> > Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses > that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending > mail out? The current subscription is between 1,000 and 2,000 I don't think that is _lots_. All we need to do is count the number of bounces per address in a given period, the SSZ end is trying to decide between weekly or monthly cleanings, and then clear that address. At no point would I need to archive the original bounce. > >I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem > >as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the > >job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this > >should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up > >and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills. > > Well, loki(a)cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire > list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have > some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of > a choke point), it would decidedly help. I certainly hope they get a cpunks address made available. I will certainly subscribe cpunks@ssz so that the distributed remailer will benefit from that input. However, one of the major realizations is that as long as one anything is involved in the list it is capable of being shutdown at any time with no warning. It also makes it much easier to compromise. I would like to see servers in several countries myself. > >Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway? Want to volunteer? Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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House Science Subcommittee...
by Lile Elam 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Hi folks, I am looking for more info on the ongoing House Science subcommittee which is about computer technology and national security. I heard they have folks talking about encryption and why it's important to use technology and not legislation to protect people's privacy... Theres a short article in the nando.net paper today about this committee at URL: http://www.nando.net/newsroom/ntn/info/021197/info5_430.html Dan Farmer talked yesterday... thanks, -lile

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Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
by Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"Timothy C. May" <tcmay(a)got.net> writes: > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup, > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks, > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that. > > > >A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages > >over an alt.* newsgroup: > > > >1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.* > >2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars > >3) The propagation will be a lot better > >4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers > > not carrying alt.*. > > > >I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup worse than > >alt.* newsgroup. > > Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating > "alt.cypherpunks." > > But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permission > or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever > takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the > ground. > > (Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the > the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the > best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that > only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would skew > discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part of > sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.) > > Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli may host > a list. Fine with me. But I wonder how long Tivoli and its parent company, > IBM, will tolerate such things as postings of dumpster divings at Mykotronx > and RSADSI, of deliberate slams against Tivoli products (a la the case John > Gilmore referred to this morning), postings about assassination markets, > and so on. > > I still feel that the time has come to move virtual forums such as ours out > of U.S. jurisdictions. Given that most European nations are worse in some > ways (no Holocaust denial posts allowed in "cypherpunks(a)foobar.de"?), I > recommend the alt.cypherpunks as the best overall compromise. (I apologize to everyone whose e-mail has gone unanswered this week - I've had a bunch of other stuff to do, but I'll get to it eventually. Also, I posted the Anshel+Goldfield zeta function paten number - do check it out.) Random thoughts: 1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-) Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporate newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their firewall lets them.) 2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup. It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-) 3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this mailing list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious desire by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read to other people. While cpunks@toad worked, one could subscribe to a filtered version offered by at least 2 people. There was no easy way to get those articles that either filterer considered worth reading: if you subscribed to both lists, you'd get most articles twice. Here's a proposal: anyone should be free to issue 'highlight' NoCeM's for the unmoderated cypherpunks newsgroups. Perhaps there will be a 'bot immediately highlighting submissions from well-known posters. Someone reading the newsgroup with a nocem-enabled newsreader (such as gnu) can choose to read only those articles that one of the filterers he trusts has already marked as worthy of his attention. (E.g. Sandy can issue NoCeMs to his heart's content.) However the filterer can't stop someone from not using NoCeMs and reading the entire newsgroup traffic without incurring moderation delays. Most people don't have nocem-enabled newareaders yet... Which is where the network of cypherpunks majordomos Igor's been busy creating comes in very handy. When one of the nodes in the distributed cpunks2news gateway gets a submission, it should xmit it to the other known gateways and post it to Usenet. Also it should grab postings from the Usenet newsgroup and forward them to its mailing list. However in addition to the unedited mailing list, some gateways can choose to offer a filtered list controlled by one or more nocem issuers: i.e. one might be able to subscribe to cypherpunked-filtered-by-either- ray-or-sandy and receive articles only when the gateway receives a nocem from one of the two listing their message-ids. (Better yet, one might specify in the subscription which filterers to use.) I don't think this is a very hard thing to hack up. Sorry for the typoes: now Imust run, but I'd beinterested in the feedback on these thoghts. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"ravage(a)EINSTEIN.ssz.com" "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 11:59:08.20 >> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:18:46 -0600 (CST) >> From: ichudov(a)algebra.com >> Subject: Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up" >> John Gilmore wrote: >> > A pentium is definitely up to this task. I've been running it the >> > whole time on a slower 40MB SPARCstation-2 (that also runs netnews and >> > general computing). Give it a big /var/spool partition (mine is 60MB) >> > because every message will sit in the queue for days (*somebody* on >> > the list will have an unreachable name server or MX server until the >> > msg times out). Give it lots of RAM and paging space, since each >> > sendmail process takes about 2MB virtual, 1.4MB physical, and you will >> > have dozens running at the same time. >My approach to this problem has been to use a 1G drive and mount the entire >file system on it. Swap and MS-Dos each get their own partitions. This >allows the use of the entire drive as a buffer. I am in the process of >adding another 1G in approx. two weeks with the intent of moving /home off >the main drive. This not only gives the system more space but the users as >well. I set swap to 4x main ram. I use Linux and have it as one giant >partition even though suggested is blocks of 16M, works for me (YMMV). Would >be minor to monitor df and alarm when it gets to 200M or something. >I must admit however that I am looking at a faster mbrd. and a bigger hard >drive in the immediate future to make up for the extra load I expect. Had >not really planned on the remailer project however... >> > You'll need a BIG mailbox for the bounce messages, and someone (or >> > some unwritten software) to scan it every day or two and delete the >> > lusers whose mailboxes are full or who dumped their account without >> > unsubscribing. The bounce mailbox on toad gets between 1 and 4MB of >> > email a day; more when the list is under attack. >How about dumping the bounces to /dev/null? I shure don't care if some >bozo's (other than mine that is) mailbox goes away. Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending mail out? >> > The real issue is how willing you are to put your own time into >> > dealing with problems. Not only do things go wrong by themselves, but >> > there are malicious assholes in the world who will deliberately make >> > trouble for you just because they like to. Spending a day or two >> > cleaning up the mess is just part of the job. Check your level of >> > committment two or three times before taking on the task -- so you >> > won't end up getting disgusted after a month or two and putting the >> > list's existence into crisis again. It's not a "set it up and forget >> > it" kind of operation. >I can verify this. If I was not already having to deal with these problem >as a current mailing list operator I certainly would not take on the >job. It is one of the reasons I STRONGLY suggest anyone serious about this >should use the resources to make money as well. Anyone capable of setting up >and operating such a remailer system is at least capable of basic skills. Well, loki(a)cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of a choke point), it would decidedly help. >> Another suggestion may be to set sendmail expire option to one day >> instead of five so that messages that cannot be delivered would bounce >> faster and not clog the queue. >I like this idea very much. Myself I would set it for like 4 hours or so and >if it couldn't be delivered then bye bye. Another motivation for selective >sites to operate as archives without themselves being remailers. >Another issue related to this is at what point to unsubscribe accounts. It >seems to me that if the address times out some number of times it should be >deleted. >Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway?

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Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
by Dave Hayes 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"Against Moderation" writes: > Your bigotry seriously undermines the effectiveness of any > anti-censorship arguments you make. Are you just trying to get > everyone to hate those who oppose censorship on cypherpunks. The relevance and applicability of an anti-censorship argument has nothing to do with the non-related personal positions of advocates or opponents of that argument. Arguments should not be won or lost by the reputation of the arguer or one risks one's own manipulation by irrelavent data. ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave(a)jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet He who has made a door and a lock, has also made a key.

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Cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net New List
by Lance Cottrell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I am gratified to see that several people have stepped forward to offer their services to host this list. I have been contacted by various list members to host the list here at Infonex. I think there are several reasons I was approached to do this. As a long time remailer operator I am used to taking heat for the services I offer, and dealing with attacks on the services I run. As the owner and President of Infonex, the list is in no danger of being pulled by the administration of this site. As the author of Mixmaster I am reasonably well known (and I hope respected) member of the list. I have been completely uninvolved in the politics which have plagued the list of late. I personally favor the multi-node list model, where no one site can censor the list, the loss of any one node is not catastrophic, and the load on any one machine is not excessive. Unfortunately I don't think it will be up and functional in time for the transition. I have already set up the list on my majordomo server and subscribers are welcome now. The list address is cypherpunks(a)Cyberpass.net and the subscription address is majordomo(a)Cyberpass.net. The list on my server is subscribed to the unedited version of the current cypherpunks list. Once the multi-node list system is perfected I will integrate this list with the other nodes. Having dealt with the abuse heaped on remailer operators, I think I have an inkling of what John Gilmore has withstood for years. He has agreed to forward his list to mine (and possibly others) for a while after the 20th. It is my opinion that the primary Cypherpunks list should be completely uncensored and unfiltered. An ecology of filtered lists has developed in exactly the way many predicted they should. For the record I regularly read only a filtered version of the list, and subscribe to the full list only to be able to read referenced articles which were filtered. -Lance Cottrell -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMwIyFMogYxMMzklZAQFTzAf+Jya8WIdWpZhyialw6GtGbj3D4mQp0PRJ +J4cBn3qCXX4sLkPcO9Cn0+3Sea20yclvZh9KXXlVM8RxGwzOhVeDDzuQ8dX+LwG QQDdjYfzUAyoSk3OJjWj92DXEZmyEGerahYdoIB7HkIkFw+OY6lJ56cTYUZvKlHe XkJakJ7F5zKdZitvx3wl7Qj6j2lMUh3SegDKz4Ig+WoOe7odbN2F6FDbp1t8WlvI b5YjhwsaOXJ56/ZuWDUuK/yjgq7obPHCtdR3jANIq+Ch01HD+idsU/CH4GCwgiNU 7/GLO+FWlrjL3QIVrl13GiixJFu70Ng37KMAbkoaPqL1Cnip1A4g/g== =fcW6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ---------------------------------------------------------- Lance Cottrell loki(a)obscura.com PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server. http://www.obscura.com/~loki/ "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra. Suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night the ice weasels come." --Nietzsche ----------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Network of majordomos
by Adam Back 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Paul Bradley <paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes: > > Greg Broiles wrote: > > > I sent a proposal to alt.config last night and intend to newgroup > > > alt.cypherpunks in a week or so > > > Greg. > > Don`t bother, I have already drawn up a draft charter and newsgrouped > it. Wouldn`t have bothered if I knew you were already on it but I > didn`t see your post in alt.config... > > Seeya there... What was your chater? Could you Cc a copy to the list? Adam -- print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

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anonymity and e-cash
by Lee Tien 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The NSA's research report on e-cash says: "The ideal situation (from the point of view of privacy advocates) is that neither payer nor payee should know the identity of the other. This makes remote transactions using electronic cash totally anonymous: no one knows where Alice spends her money and who pays her. "It turns out that this is too much to ask: there is no way in such a scenario for the consumer to obtain a signed receipt. Thus we are forced to settle for payer anonymity." Keeping in mind I am only a lawyer, my skim of Schneier (2d ed.) didn't illuminate. The discussion of digital cash seemed to assume no payee anonymity. But the immediate previous section of dining cryptographers involved (it seemed) recipient untraceability. Is payee anonymity technically possible? Under what conditions? If so, is the issue social, e.g., as NSA notes, the lack of a signed receipt? Thanks, Lee

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Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
by Dave Hayes 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

ISP_Ratings writes: > I hate censors Dr. Grubor. Dave says hate is a destructive > emotion but when properly channeled it can be quite valuable. I didn't exactly say that. Hate is merely an absence of harmony, and destruction is sometimes appropriate. What I did say was that the best way to strengthen an enemy is to hate them. ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave(a)jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet The King decided to force his subjects to tell the truth. Nasrudin was first in line. They asked him, "Where are you going? Tell the truth or be hanged" "I am going," said Nasrudin, "to be hanged on that gallows." "I don't believe you." "Very well, if I have told a lie, then hang me!" "But that would make it the truth!" "Exactly," said Nasrudin, "your truth."

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Is "alt.cypherpunks" the best choice?
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks) At 2:49 PM -0600 2/12/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: >It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a >prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help >them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage. Perhaps some will, but I've been a reader of many alt groups for many years, and have not found them to be unusable. Alt.religion.scientology, for example, has been a robust forum for discussion (and argument, of course!) about Scientology. My fear about using a "well respected" name is that the usual calls for moderation may end up with it being moderated! And the well respected domains are often plagued with threats by various participants that _others_ are being "off topic," with threats to send letters to sysadmins advising them that one of their users is debating an off-topic subject. I have a fair amount of respect for Igor, so my comments here should not be taken the wrong way. To wit, I recall that shortly after the "moderation" thing began on Cypherpunks(a)toad.com, Igor called for Sandy to start blocking "libertarian rants" and "crypto anarchy" discussions, apparently feeling these are not proper Cypherpunks topics. It could be that a "sci.crypt.cypherpunks" group, for example, would result in pressures on sysadmins to discipline those who post "off topic" things. (Again, I'm not saying Igor himself would do this. But there would be a temptation for some to do so.) For me, I can easily scan even a high volume group like alt.religion.scientology for threads of interest (I use "NewsWatcher YA," a good Mac-based threaded newsreader, with even support for anonymous remailers built in). If I can read a.r.s., I can read a.cp without any trouble. It works for me. --Tim May -- Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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List for discussing many majordomos (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 22:46:03 -0800 > From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles(a)netbox.com> > Subject: List for discussing many majordomos > Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos" > project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual > property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a > setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to > discuss this. Please explain how making submissions de facto public domain censors anyone? Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Re: [STEGO] e$
by nobody＠wazoo.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dr.Dumbbell L(agging) Viscera K(rud) Of The Moment was delivered by a vet, like the swine he is. v-v-v-@@-v-v-v (..) Dr.Dumbbell L(agging) Viscera K(rud) Of The Moment

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Re: Diffie Hellman signatures
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dr.Dead Vomit the self-admitted child molester possesses a rudimentary dick less than one inch long, half the size of his mother's clitoris, that barely makes a fistful. Thereby hangs the root of this Jew-hating sissy's sick fixation on little boys and Usenet forgeries. _ /| `o_O' Dr.Dead Vomit ( ) U

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Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
by ichudov＠algebra.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day? > > i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely. > recent peak of 350,000 messages > > does that meet your needs? Yes. This is great. You can join a discussion of people who will help hosting the cypherpunks list at cypherpunks-hosts(a)algebra.com. Subscribe by asking majordomo(a)algebra.com - Igor.

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Re: Network of majordomos
by Adam Back 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Paul Bradley <paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes: > > Greg Broiles wrote: > > > I sent a proposal to alt.config last night and intend to newgroup > > > alt.cypherpunks in a week or so > > > Greg. > > Don`t bother, I have already drawn up a draft charter and newsgrouped > it. Wouldn`t have bothered if I knew you were already on it but I > didn`t see your post in alt.config... > > Seeya there... What was your chater? Could you Cc a copy to the list? Adam -- print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

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Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
by Dave Hayes 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

"Against Moderation" writes: > Your bigotry seriously undermines the effectiveness of any > anti-censorship arguments you make. Are you just trying to get > everyone to hate those who oppose censorship on cypherpunks. The relevance and applicability of an anti-censorship argument has nothing to do with the non-related personal positions of advocates or opponents of that argument. Arguments should not be won or lost by the reputation of the arguer or one risks one's own manipulation by irrelavent data. ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave(a)jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet He who has made a door and a lock, has also made a key.

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anonymity and e-cash
by Lee Tien 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

The NSA's research report on e-cash says: "The ideal situation (from the point of view of privacy advocates) is that neither payer nor payee should know the identity of the other. This makes remote transactions using electronic cash totally anonymous: no one knows where Alice spends her money and who pays her. "It turns out that this is too much to ask: there is no way in such a scenario for the consumer to obtain a signed receipt. Thus we are forced to settle for payer anonymity." Keeping in mind I am only a lawyer, my skim of Schneier (2d ed.) didn't illuminate. The discussion of digital cash seemed to assume no payee anonymity. But the immediate previous section of dining cryptographers involved (it seemed) recipient untraceability. Is payee anonymity technically possible? Under what conditions? If so, is the issue social, e.g., as NSA notes, the lack of a signed receipt? Thanks, Lee

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Re: Moderation experiment almost over; "put up or shut up"
by Dave Hayes 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

ISP_Ratings writes: > I hate censors Dr. Grubor. Dave says hate is a destructive > emotion but when properly channeled it can be quite valuable. I didn't exactly say that. Hate is merely an absence of harmony, and destruction is sometimes appropriate. What I did say was that the best way to strengthen an enemy is to hate them. ------ Dave Hayes - Altadena CA, USA - dave(a)jetcafe.org Freedom Knight of Usenet - http://www.jetcafe.org/~dave/usenet The King decided to force his subjects to tell the truth. Nasrudin was first in line. They asked him, "Where are you going? Tell the truth or be hanged" "I am going," said Nasrudin, "to be hanged on that gallows." "I don't believe you." "Very well, if I have told a lie, then hang me!" "But that would make it the truth!" "Exactly," said Nasrudin, "your truth."

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Re: New group
by Lance Cottrell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I have alt.cypherpunks on my server (all 1 message). I would be happy to feed that group (and alt.anonymous.messages) to any news server that asks. -Lance At 6:38 AM -0800 2/12/97, Dale Thorn wrote: >Paul Bradley wrote: >> Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time >> someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only >> temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on >> usenet!... > >I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said >"no such thing" or words to that effect. ---------------------------------------------------------- Lance Cottrell loki(a)obscura.com PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server. http://www.obscura.com/~loki/ "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra. Suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night the ice weasels come." --Nietzsche ----------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
by ichudov＠algebra.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > "Timothy C. May" <tcmay(a)got.net> writes: > > At 1:20 PM -0600 2/11/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > >If the people decide for creation of a new USENET newsgroup, > > >we need to think very hard about actually moving it to a different > > >hierarchy from alt.*. I would propose comp.org.cypherpunks, > > >comp.cypherpunks, sci.crypt.cypherpunks or something like that. > > > > > >A comp.* or sci.* newsgroup, if created, has the following advantages > > >over an alt.* newsgroup: > > > > > >1) There is usually less spam in sci.* or comp.* > > >2) There are virtually no completely irrelevant flamewars > > >3) The propagation will be a lot better > > >4) More people will be able to read it because of the issue of providers > > > not carrying alt.*. > > > > > >I see nothing that would make a sci.* or comp.* newsgroup worse than > > >alt.* newsgroup. > > > > Sure, and this has come up in every past discussion of creating > > "alt.cypherpunks." > > > > But the creation of alt.cypherpunks is _easy_, and needs little permission > > or support, whereas the creation of "soc.culture.cypherpunks" or whatever > > takes work, requires a vote, blah blah blah. And so it never gets off the > > ground. > > > > (Nor is it clear to me, and perhaps not to others, that it belongs in the > > the various places Igor mentioned. Comp.org.cypherpunks probably is the > > best fit, but then many would cite the "comp" part to try to insist that > > only _computer_ topics be discussed. Likewise, the "soc" domain would skew > > discussion...etc. "Alt" has the nice advantage of explicitly not be part of > > sci, or comp, or soc, or even talk.) > > > (I apologize to everyone whose e-mail has gone unanswered this week - I've > had a bunch of other stuff to do, but I'll get to it eventually. Also, > I posted > the Anshel+Goldfield zeta function paten number - do check it out.) > > Random thoughts: > > 1. A newsgroup like comp.privacy.cypherpunks will be carried on a lot of > corprate news servers that don't carry alt.* (or even soc.*). Note that > soc.org.cypherpunks is inappropriate since cp is *not* an organization. :-) > Another possibility is sci.crypto.cypherpunks. (True, people whose corporate > newsservers don't carry soc.* and talk.* can use dejanews - provided their > firewall lets them.) > 2. It takes more work to create a comp.* newsgroup than an alt newsgroup. > It takes a vote. I'm willing to be one of the proponents and generally help > with the process. (Both I and Igor have been co-proponents of major Usenet > newsgroups - don't know about other people onthis list. :-) Not only it takes a vote. What is more important is what a vote gives: a good discussion of the newsgroup and the formal RFD/RFD/CFV process ensures that, on average, a good balance is found between various groups of readers. I am not concerned as to what the name of the group will be, it is not important. What is important is that it should be in a more or less flame-free zone. It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage. > 3. An unmoderated Usenet newsgroup would have even ore crap than this mailing > list. I've been thinking of how to deal with crap, and with the obvious desire > by some people to delegate their decision what to read and what not to read > to other people. It is alt.* and soc.* that has most crap, sci and comp are way better. > Most people don't have nocem-enabled newareaders yet... Which is where the > network of cypherpunks majordomos Igor's been busy creating comes in very > handy. > It is a very good idea to let NoCeM issuers and filterers work independently from list nodes. - Igor.

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Cypherpunks@Cyberpass.net New List
by Lance Cottrell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I am gratified to see that several people have stepped forward to offer their services to host this list. I have been contacted by various list members to host the list here at Infonex. I think there are several reasons I was approached to do this. As a long time remailer operator I am used to taking heat for the services I offer, and dealing with attacks on the services I run. As the owner and President of Infonex, the list is in no danger of being pulled by the administration of this site. As the author of Mixmaster I am reasonably well known (and I hope respected) member of the list. I have been completely uninvolved in the politics which have plagued the list of late. I personally favor the multi-node list model, where no one site can censor the list, the loss of any one node is not catastrophic, and the load on any one machine is not excessive. Unfortunately I don't think it will be up and functional in time for the transition. I have already set up the list on my majordomo server and subscribers are welcome now. The list address is cypherpunks(a)Cyberpass.net and the subscription address is majordomo(a)Cyberpass.net. The list on my server is subscribed to the unedited version of the current cypherpunks list. Once the multi-node list system is perfected I will integrate this list with the other nodes. Having dealt with the abuse heaped on remailer operators, I think I have an inkling of what John Gilmore has withstood for years. He has agreed to forward his list to mine (and possibly others) for a while after the 20th. It is my opinion that the primary Cypherpunks list should be completely uncensored and unfiltered. An ecology of filtered lists has developed in exactly the way many predicted they should. For the record I regularly read only a filtered version of the list, and subscribe to the full list only to be able to read referenced articles which were filtered. -Lance Cottrell -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMwIyFMogYxMMzklZAQFTzAf+Jya8WIdWpZhyialw6GtGbj3D4mQp0PRJ +J4cBn3qCXX4sLkPcO9Cn0+3Sea20yclvZh9KXXlVM8RxGwzOhVeDDzuQ8dX+LwG QQDdjYfzUAyoSk3OJjWj92DXEZmyEGerahYdoIB7HkIkFw+OY6lJ56cTYUZvKlHe XkJakJ7F5zKdZitvx3wl7Qj6j2lMUh3SegDKz4Ig+WoOe7odbN2F6FDbp1t8WlvI b5YjhwsaOXJ56/ZuWDUuK/yjgq7obPHCtdR3jANIq+Ch01HD+idsU/CH4GCwgiNU 7/GLO+FWlrjL3QIVrl13GiixJFu70Ng37KMAbkoaPqL1Cnip1A4g/g== =fcW6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ---------------------------------------------------------- Lance Cottrell loki(a)obscura.com PGP 2.6 key available by finger or server. http://www.obscura.com/~loki/ "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra. Suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night the ice weasels come." --Nietzsche ----------------------------------------------------------

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Is "alt.cypherpunks" the best choice?
by Tim May 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks) At 2:49 PM -0600 2/12/97, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: >It is too late to stop alt.cypherpunks, but if I had to make a >prediction again, I would predict that soon posters will BEG to help >them create comp.*.cypherpunks, because of spam and alt.flamage. Perhaps some will, but I've been a reader of many alt groups for many years, and have not found them to be unusable. Alt.religion.scientology, for example, has been a robust forum for discussion (and argument, of course!) about Scientology. My fear about using a "well respected" name is that the usual calls for moderation may end up with it being moderated! And the well respected domains are often plagued with threats by various participants that _others_ are being "off topic," with threats to send letters to sysadmins advising them that one of their users is debating an off-topic subject. I have a fair amount of respect for Igor, so my comments here should not be taken the wrong way. To wit, I recall that shortly after the "moderation" thing began on Cypherpunks(a)toad.com, Igor called for Sandy to start blocking "libertarian rants" and "crypto anarchy" discussions, apparently feeling these are not proper Cypherpunks topics. It could be that a "sci.crypt.cypherpunks" group, for example, would result in pressures on sysadmins to discipline those who post "off topic" things. (Again, I'm not saying Igor himself would do this. But there would be a temptation for some to do so.) For me, I can easily scan even a high volume group like alt.religion.scientology for threads of interest (I use "NewsWatcher YA," a good Mac-based threaded newsreader, with even support for anonymous remailers built in). If I can read a.r.s., I can read a.cp without any trouble. It works for me. --Tim May -- Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Re: New group
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Paul Bradley wrote: > > Well despite the obvious problems of propogation I thought it was time > > someone actually did something to get us a new home, even if it`s only > > temporary. So I have created alt.cypherpunks... See you all over on > > usenet!... > I pressed the URL alt.cypherpunks and my Netscape server said > "no such thing" or words to that effect. The control message may take a few more hours to propogate, either that or your newsadmin has rmgrouped it. The charter was clear and concise and explained the issues so I don`t see why it should have been rmgrouped. Can you mail me if it hasn`t been created by the time you get this email and I`ll re-issue the cmsg. However, I`m sure it was OK as Robert Hettinga (sp?) found it on his news server today... Seeya Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Re: List for discussing many majordomos
by Timothy C. May 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 10:46 PM -0800 2/11/97, Greg Broiles wrote: >At 06:59 PM 2/11/97 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > >>We can coordinate our efforts. Actually, we can even have a mini >>mailing list for people who want to participate in the distributed >>cypherpunks experiment. If there is any interest, I can create such >>a list. > >Yes, this is a good idea. One of the proponents of the "many majordomos" >project apparently has plans to impose his own ideas about intellectual >property on the project, and this seems like a pretty serious thing for a >setup that's allegedly going to prevent censorship. We need a place to >discuss this. I've noticed the same thing, and this is part of why I'm so skeptical of the "many majordomos" notion. Some of the proponents have their own notions of who is fit to be in their system, and which topics are appropriate. If alt.cypherpunks gets wide propagation, I expect that'll be where I post the bulk of my stuff. By the way, several people have stepped forward to offer to host "the list" (?) on their Linux boxes, or spare CPU cycles they have somewhere. It's important that such offers be weighed carefully in terms of how serious the commitment is, and how long the service might last. (For you old-timers, we wouldn't want to have a repeat of the situation where a remailer went down because "I took my laptop with me on vacation to Spain.") --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Spamming the list
by lucifer＠dhp.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Warning: if you fuck a Dr.Dainty Vaginal in the ass, a tapeworm might bite your penis. \ o/\_ Dr.Dainty Vaginal <\__,\ '\, |

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CAPI 2.0 beta!
by anand abhyankar 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

hi guys, anybody used the Microsoft CAPI 2.0? anand....

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Re: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
by Otto Matic 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

And I was very surprized to see this posting in the flames trash can!! Tim is just calling the Cypherpunks to task. Tim, what have you done to deserve such treatment? What agenda is it that makes it seem as if the machine hosting this mailing list will be in the wrong hands? Like the shadow government? Sorry they are giving you the Dr. V. treatment! >From cypherpunks-errors(a)toad.com Tue Feb 11 05:57:27 1997 >Fellow Cypherpunks (of the virtual community, even if not part of any >particular version of the list(s)), Articles are dated: > >* 2/7/97, 1:46 p.m. PST > >* 2/7/97, 1:59 p.m., PST > >* 2/7/97, 3:03 p.m., PST > >* 2/7/97, 9:46 p.m., PST otto =-=-=-=-=- Otto Matic "Fuckin' A, Miller!" Bud, Repo Man --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:33:03 -0800 > From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles(a)netbox.com> > Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd) > Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last > night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours > be ready then, too? The mailing list was ready yesterday. Currently I have about a dozen subscribers who are testing it. Igor has his list up and I expect that we will begin the cross-subscription process on Saturday or Sunday. I sent a 'who is here' message to cypherpunks-hosts(a)algebra.com and have not received any replies. > If you need some help setting it up, let me know. It can be a little tricky > if you haven't done it before. Thanks, I'll factor that into my equation. I, however won't be acting as a mail-to-news gateway at this point. What I would like to see would be a news site which sent a copy of each incoming message to a mailing list and would have an email address where each new submission to the mailing list would get sent to. To make it really interesting would be to use two seperate remailers, one for each traffic path. Had you thought of taking your news that far? Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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alt.cypherpunks created
by Greg Broiles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

According to DejaNews, Mike Duvos has also issued a newgroup for alt.cypherpunks: >Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.cypherpunks >From: mpd(a)netcom.com (Mike Duvos) >Date: 1997/02/11 >Message-Id: <mpdE5GMA8.ABH(a)netcom.com> >Sender: mpd(a)netcom12.netcom.com >Control: newgroup alt.cypherpunks >Organization: Netcom On-Line Services >Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks > > > >alt.cypherpunks is an unmoderated newsgroup, needed as a replacement >for the high volume Cypherpunks mailing list, which is being evicted >from its longtime home at toad.com due to creative differences with >the site owner, John Gilmore. > >For your newsgroups file: > >alt.cypherpunks Technological defenses for privacy > >Some background on Cypherpunks, snipped from the mailing list welcome >message, follows... > >Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more of it. >Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must create it for >themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or other large, >faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of beneficence. >Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their own privacy for >centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and couriers. >Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from speaking about their >experiences or their opinions. > >The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To >encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy. But to encrypt with weak >cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy. Cypherpunks >hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best to defend it. > >Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography. Cypherpunks wish to >learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of it. >Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social structures. >Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to defend it. Cypherpunks >know just how hard it is to make good cryptosystems. > >Cypherpunks love to practice. They love to play with public key >cryptography. They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail >forwarding and delivery. They love to play with DC-nets. They love to >play with secure communications of all kinds. > >Cypherpunks write code. They know that someone has to write code to >defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write it. >Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks may >practice and play with it. Cypherpunks realize that security is not built >in a day and are patient with incremental progress. > >Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. >Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed. Cypherpunks know that >a widely dispersed system can't be shut down. > >Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy. > >-- > Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ > mpd(a)netcom.com $ via Finger. $

2 1

CAPI 2.0 beta!
by anand abhyankar 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

hi guys, anybody used the Microsoft CAPI 2.0? anand....

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Re: META: Censorship is Going Way too Far
by Otto Matic 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

And I was very surprized to see this posting in the flames trash can!! Tim is just calling the Cypherpunks to task. Tim, what have you done to deserve such treatment? What agenda is it that makes it seem as if the machine hosting this mailing list will be in the wrong hands? Like the shadow government? Sorry they are giving you the Dr. V. treatment! >From cypherpunks-errors(a)toad.com Tue Feb 11 05:57:27 1997 >Fellow Cypherpunks (of the virtual community, even if not part of any >particular version of the list(s)), Articles are dated: > >* 2/7/97, 1:46 p.m. PST > >* 2/7/97, 1:59 p.m., PST > >* 2/7/97, 3:03 p.m., PST > >* 2/7/97, 9:46 p.m., PST otto =-=-=-=-=- Otto Matic "Fuckin' A, Miller!" Bud, Repo Man --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------

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Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
by Attila T. Hun 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin? on or about 970211:1433 educom(a)elanor.oit.unc.edu said: +COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL +A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a +preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending +unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider +pursues its lawsuit against Cyber Promotions. The injunction was +granted after Cyber Promotions foiled CompuServe's initial attempts to +block its messages by falsifying the point-of-origin information on +its e-mail messages and by configuring its network servers to conceal +its actual Internet domain name. "To the extent that defendant's +multitudinous electronic mailings demand the disk space and drain the +processing power of plaintiff's computer equipment, those resources +are not available to CompuServe subscribers," the court reasoned. In +addition, because many subscribers had complained to CompuServe about +the mailings, the court found that Cyber Promotions' intrusions +constituted "harm" as well as trespassing under common tort law. The +court found that the "plaintiff is not a government agency or a state +actor which seeks to preempt defendants' ability to communicate but is +instead a private actor trying to tailor the nuances of its service to +provide maximum utility to its customers." (BNA Daily Report for +Executives 7 Feb 97) ___________________________________________________________attila_____ "The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad." --Salvador Dali ___________________________________________________________attila_____ "attila" 1024/C20B6905/23 D0 FA 7F 6A 8F 60 66 BC AF AE 56 98 C0 D7 B0

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Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
by Greg Broiles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 09:17 AM 2/12/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: [quoting me] >> Usenet technology does exactly what you're describing: it's a distributed >> database of messages designed to facilitate each server getting its own copy >> of every message, and holding it locally for distribution to interested >> readers. Other people have been kind enough to write, debug, and document the >> software - all you have to do is install it. This could be running tonight. > >Did you get it running last nite Greg? When do you expect to be able to >handle traffic? Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours be ready then, too? If you need some help setting it up, let me know. It can be a little tricky if you haven't done it before. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQEVAgUBMwJE/f37pMWUJFlhAQH/9Af9E9FqR2oQXmL77j6wVnoD1Szh4FH3a8X+ Kc9GILJO0b6PpjNh2qEG2xTs2XYW6GgKmnQVqyA92otB8LtZND46LAuef5IQgbgD BxYPiUp5rgrhwpx1ArFqT6GfQQKIjFHNpSqyximWSv+TmoK/ptx/uhA7jP+VmOKy 5mbYhXZbbH/GXKa5W+pZzjHu6XEXMl9L4jiMdgWZAmkkn2OTpkUFu9N/FosoiQw+ tK33WqQtNX5N/gqvO5sOZYEgOlmJMzM+f5sqtbGnokc3FxZQxwRbshmJ5xRPkOtU rcLzL7/jzP03nQfGLHj4iFzUgPO+rYQ/ur5VxSuR/svZvm+XIxuqOg== =jxJb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles(a)netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. |

3 2

Re: Network of majordomos (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:33:03 -0800 > From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles(a)netbox.com> > Subject: Re: Network of majordomos (fwd) > Yes, I installed INN and ran a few hundred test messages through it last > night. My machine will be on the net full-time Thursday or Friday. Will yours > be ready then, too? The mailing list was ready yesterday. Currently I have about a dozen subscribers who are testing it. Igor has his list up and I expect that we will begin the cross-subscription process on Saturday or Sunday. I sent a 'who is here' message to cypherpunks-hosts(a)algebra.com and have not received any replies. > If you need some help setting it up, let me know. It can be a little tricky > if you haven't done it before. Thanks, I'll factor that into my equation. I, however won't be acting as a mail-to-news gateway at this point. What I would like to see would be a news site which sent a copy of each incoming message to a mailing list and would have an email address where each new submission to the mailing list would get sent to. To make it really interesting would be to use two seperate remailers, one for each traffic path. Had you thought of taking your news that far? Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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alt.cypherpunks created
by Greg Broiles 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

According to DejaNews, Mike Duvos has also issued a newgroup for alt.cypherpunks: >Subject: cmsg newgroup alt.cypherpunks >From: mpd(a)netcom.com (Mike Duvos) >Date: 1997/02/11 >Message-Id: <mpdE5GMA8.ABH(a)netcom.com> >Sender: mpd(a)netcom12.netcom.com >Control: newgroup alt.cypherpunks >Organization: Netcom On-Line Services >Newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks > > > >alt.cypherpunks is an unmoderated newsgroup, needed as a replacement >for the high volume Cypherpunks mailing list, which is being evicted >from its longtime home at toad.com due to creative differences with >the site owner, John Gilmore. > >For your newsgroups file: > >alt.cypherpunks Technological defenses for privacy > >Some background on Cypherpunks, snipped from the mailing list welcome >message, follows... > >Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more of it. >Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must create it for >themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or other large, >faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of beneficence. >Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their own privacy for >centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and couriers. >Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from speaking about their >experiences or their opinions. > >The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To >encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy. But to encrypt with weak >cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy. Cypherpunks >hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best to defend it. > >Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography. Cypherpunks wish to >learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of it. >Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social structures. >Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to defend it. Cypherpunks >know just how hard it is to make good cryptosystems. > >Cypherpunks love to practice. They love to play with public key >cryptography. They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail >forwarding and delivery. They love to play with DC-nets. They love to >play with secure communications of all kinds. > >Cypherpunks write code. They know that someone has to write code to >defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write it. >Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow cypherpunks may >practice and play with it. Cypherpunks realize that security is not built >in a day and are patient with incremental progress. > >Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. >Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed. Cypherpunks know that >a widely dispersed system can't be shut down. > >Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy. > >-- > Mike Duvos $ PGP 2.6 Public Key available $ > mpd(a)netcom.com $ via Finger. $

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List-Managers list info
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"Majordomo(a)GreatCircle.COM" 4-AUG-1996 00:00:26.72 To: IN%"EALLENSMITH(a)mbcl.rutgers.edu" CC: Subj: Welcome to list-managers Welcome to the list-managers mailing list! Please save this message for future reference. Thank you. If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, you can send mail to <Majordomo(a)GreatCircle.COM> with the following command in the body of your email message: unsubscribe list-managers EALLENSMITH(a)mbcl.rutgers.edu Here's the general information for the list you've subscribed to, in case you don't already have it: Description =========== This list is for discussions of issues related to managing Internet mailing lists, including (but not limited to) methods, mechanisms, techniques, policies, and software (in general; questions about specific software packages should be directed to the mailing list dedicated to that particular package). Technical questions regarding particular software packages (for instance, Majordomo, LISTPROC, ListServ, etc.) are NOT appropriate for the List-Managers mailing list. They should be directed to the mailing list dedicated to that particular package (for instance, for Majordomo, that's Majordomo-Users(a)GreatCircle.COM) Check the documentation that came with the package to find out where the support list for that package is hosted. This list is an outgrowth of the "Mailing Lists" workshop session at the USENIX System Administration Conference (LISA VI) in Long Beach, CA, on October 22, 1992. This is the undigestified version of the list. All messages sent to this list are immediately forwarded to members of the list. The digestified version of the list is List-Managers-Digest(a)GreatCircle.COM. Policies ======== You can subscribe a local redistribution list or a gateway to a local newsgroup, as long as whatever you do is local to your site. This restriction makes it much easier for me to track down mailer problems. I'm very aggressive when it comes to bounced email. If email to you starts bouncing, I'll probably drop you from the list fairly quickly; you'll have to resubscribe when you get the problem fixed, and retrieve the archives to find out what you missed. Archives ======== All messages to the list are archived. The archives are available via Majordomo using the "get" command (send "help" in the body of a message to "Majordomo(a)GreatCircle.COM" for more info), or via anonymous FTP from host FTP.GreatCircle.COM in directory "pub/list-managers/archive". The archives are broken down by year and month, and are stored in files named "list-managers.YYMM". The copy of the archive available by anonymous FTP is updated every night at 2am local time (0900 GMT in the summer, 1000 GMT in the winter). For further information, contact: Michael C. Berch Postmaster and list manager, Great Circle Associates mcb(a)greatcircle.com

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Extensis CyberViewer Registration
by webmaster＠extensis.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Dear Gringo, Thank you for registering your copy of CyberViewer with Extensis! Your CyberViewer serial number is: JME-100-001-936-690721 Please save this message for your records. Visit <http://www.extensis.com/products/CyberViewer/> for more information about CyberViewer news & updates! Thanks for using Extensis CyberViewer! Jeff Cheney Product Marketing Manager jcheney(a)extensis.com

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Re: Need a good bi-directional mail-news gateway
by Robert Hettinga 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 3:18 pm -0500 2/12/97, Jonathan M. Bresler <jmb(a)frb.gov> wrote: ^^^^^^^ > your expected mail volume is 100,000+ messages a day? > > i run lists that do 200,000+ routinely. > recent peak of 350,000 messages > > does that meet your needs? Great. Let's run cypherpunks with a government subsidy. ;-). Pulling your leg, just a bit.. Cheers, Bob Hettinga "So much for a geodesic monitary system..." ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah(a)shipwright.com) Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "Never attribute to conspiracy what can be explained by stupidity." -- Jerry Pournelle The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/

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security
by zac speidel 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

does any 1 here a hacker??? Title: Skinhead Oi Oi

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Re: Cypherpunks Distributed Remailer (fwd)
by E. Allen Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

From: IN%"ravage(a)einstein.ssz.com" "Jim Choate" 12-FEB-1997 18:43:56.23 > From: "E. Allen Smith" <EALLENSMITH(a)ocelot.rutgers.edu> >> Umm... because you'll eventually accumulate _lots_ of addresses >> that don't work, which will slow things down tremendously in sending >> mail out? >The current subscription is between 1,000 and 2,000 I don't think that is >_lots_. All we need to do is count the number of bounces per address in >a given period, the SSZ end is trying to decide between weekly or >monthly cleanings, and then clear that address. At no point would I need >to archive the original bounce. Someone with more experience correct me if I'm wrong (I'm just starting to learn about mailing list management), but isn't saving at least the first bounce from a given address good in order to check what address is the one that's actually bouncing? Admittedly, this only applies to badly-formed bounces. The rest can just have the address noted. >> Well, loki(a)cyberpass.net has made the offer to host the entire >> list... and Lance is certainly making money at it. While this would have >> some problems in comparison with the distributed list idea (namely more of >> a choke point), it would decidedly help. >I certainly hope they get a cpunks address made available. I will certainly >subscribe cpunks@ssz so that the distributed remailer will benefit from >that input. However, one of the major realizations is that as long as one >anything is involved in the list it is capable of being shutdown at any >time with no warning. It also makes it much easier to compromise. I would >like to see servers in several countries myself. Agreed. >> >Is anyone interested in acting as a mail-to-news gateway? >Want to volunteer? Give me some idea of how much programming knowledge, time, etcetera is required, please, before I can answer. I'd be renting space on some other computer (e.g., an account on cyberpass.net) to do it in; the only higher-level programming language (i.e., beyond Applesoft Basic) that I know anything of is Perl (and I don't know that all that well); and I am somewhat busy with other stuff. In other words, it depends. -Allen

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Pre-alpha Cpunx-resource FAQ comments sought
by omegam＠cmq.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Okay folks. I have worked on this much of the day. This is a more formalized outline as well as a somewhat fleshed out version of section 1 of the FAQ I am attempting to produce. I submit this to the group for commentary and suggestions as well as pointers to the relevant info. This should be enough to give a flavor of what I am trying to do. Anything in [] needs to be located and/or verified by myself. I realize that this won't please everyone and some may not care. So be it. Those who do care, please help me make it less of a FAQ based on my subjective experience and more of a useful general reference. Here it is... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Cypherpunks Resources FAQ version 0.000000002 Compiled, edited & maintained by Scott Harney "Omegaman <omegam(a)cmq.com>" This document lists resources for readers interested in Cypherpunk issues and goals. The primary intention of this document is to get new readers of the group to explore the background issues that Cypherpunks attempt to address. It also includes pointers to many common cryptographic implementations and tools. Furthermore, pointers and instructions for various newsreaders and email-filters are provided to help users filter out some of the net's inevitable noise and glean the most useful information they can from this forum. This FAQ does not attempt to explictly define who the Cypherpunks are or answer questions about the philosophy. That is an exercise for the reader who utilizes the pointers within to find the answers on their own. After exploring these resources, the hope is that the reader will become a more effective and insightful contributor to alt.cypherpunks -- even if he/she is opposed to the goals of the group. This FAQ is not intended to be an exhaustive reference. A quick perusal of this FAQ should reveal the impossiblity of such a task. Rather, it is a jumping-off point. Almost all of the references below contain voluminous further references. If your mission-critical Cypherpunks site is not explicitly included, it is 99% likely to be referred to by at least one of them. This FAQ is propagated monthly to alt.cypherpunks. It can also be obtained be sending email with the subject and/or body "get cpunks faq" to omegam(a)cmq.com. As with nearly all net.publications, this document is in a constant state of contruction. When information in the FAQ is updated, I will also post a "what's new" message for those who are interested in reading additions/corrections without wading throught the entire FAQ again. - -------*********------- Author's Note/Disclaimer ---------*********--------- I maintain this FAQ solely on a voluntary basis. I am doing this because I think it is necessary. It would be contrary to the anarchic nature of the Cypherpunks to attempt to call this an official FAQ of the Cypherpunks group. Anyone who disagrees with the editing decisions and pointer selections I have made in this FAQ is free to. What this means is that you are encouraged to send comments, suggestions, corrections, new questions, and answers to me. I may or may not include them in future revisions of the FAQ. I do ask that somewhere in the subject of your mail redarding this FAQ you include the text "(CFAQ suggest)", so procmail can file such comments appropriately and I can address them in a more efficient manner. If I use your suggestion or answer to a question, I will attribute the reference to you unless you request that I do not. You are free to create your own Cypherpunks-resources FAQ if you don't like mine. - - Scott _______________________________________________________________ Omegaman <mailto:omegam@cmq.com> PGP Key fingerprint = 6D 31 C3 00 77 8C D1 C2 59 0A 01 E3 AF 81 94 63 Send e-mail with "get key" in the "Subject:" field to get a copy of my public key _______________________________________________________________ - -------*********--------*********---------********--------*********------ Premliminary Outline Section 1 - Introduction and General Information. Q1.1 Does this newsgroup/mailing-list have a charter? Q1.2 How did the group get started? Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want? Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list? Are there archives? Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals. Q1.6 What have the Cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that merely talk about them? Q1.7 I'm interested, what can I do? Q1.8 What are all these terms and acronyms anyway? (A Quick n' Dirty Glossary) Section 2 - Crypto in Action Q2.1 Pointers galore to PGP resources. Q2.2 Point to Schneir's site and include biblio info on Applied Crypto Q2.2 Point to cryptlib toolkits Q2.3 RSA, of course. Q2.4 pointers to disk encryption utilities for various platforms Q2.5 pointers to Raph's remailer site and other remailer info sites. remailer software. software to make remailer usage simpler (premail, PIdaho) Q2.6 pointers to the various digital cash purveyors and to explanations of how Chaumian digital cash works. Q2.7 pointers to Apache-SSL site and info, Stronghold, Q2.8 SSH Q2.9 Pointers to sites describing how various types of crypto actually work. sci.crypt faq Q3.0 But how do I know if it's good crypto? Point to snake Oil FAQ? Schneir's essay. Use your brain. Section 3 - Crypto and the Law Q3.1 Froomkin's site obviously.. John Young's also obvious. EFF has a good archive too. Karn case, others. Q3.2 Pointers to government's current position on crypto. ie. EAR, ITAR Q3.3 Pointers past Clipper failure info. Section 4 - Who's who & (recent) History of Crypto. Q4.1 A couple of good general history sites exist. also Codebreakers bibliographical reference. Q4.2 Enigma is a common question, point to relevant sites. Q4.3 Whit Diffie--some interviews etc are available Q4.4 Bruce Schneir same Q4.5 Phil Z and PGP history and interviews. Q4.6 Jim Bizdos Q4.8 Dorothy Denning (got to include the enemy too) Q4.7 Pointers to news on breaks of ciphers Q4.8 NSA site. [Others? I'm getting sleepy, names escaping me at the moment] Section 5 - Help! I want to know more but I'm drowning in noise Q5.1 Point to filtered lists in existence Q5.2 news2mail gateways as source of list. mail filtering tools come into good use. point to a bunch of them. Q5.3 Point to kill-file info for various newsreaders and platforms. [Possibly include generic examples from own experience and list user's experience who wish to contribute. Specific names will be ommitted of course. Also score information for those interested] Q5.4 point to information on other utilities and verification-type schemes [NoCeM's] Section 6 - Personal motivations, thank-you's, etc. *********----------**********----------**********---------*********---- Section 1. Introduction and General Information Q1.1 Do the Cypherpunks have an official charter? No. Cypherpunks are anarchic in nature so the notion of an official charter is directly contrary to such ideals. The two statements below are from Original Cypherpunks (OC's) Eric Hughes and Tim May. The first was part of the original welcome message to the mailing list hosted at toad.com. The second was suggested by Tim to the original list and commented upon by the readership. Both statements are accepted by much of the readership as good indicators of what Cypherpunks are about. Eric Hughes' statement: "Cypherpunks assume privacy is a good thing and wish there were more of it. Cypherpunks acknowledge that those who want privacy must create it for themselves and not expect governments, corporations, or other large, faceless organizations to grant them privacy out of beneficence. Cypherpunks know that people have been creating their own privacy for centuries with whispers, envelopes, closed doors, and couriers. Cypherpunks do not seek to prevent other people from speaking about their experiences or their opinions. The most important means to the defense of privacy is encryption. To encrypt is to indicate the desire for privacy. But to encrypt with weak cryptography is to indicate not too much desire for privacy. Cypherpunks hope that all people desiring privacy will learn how best to defend it. Cypherpunks are therefore devoted to cryptography. Cypherpunks wish to learn about it, to teach it, to implement it, and to make more of it. Cypherpunks know that cryptographic protocols make social structures. Cypherpunks know how to attack a system and how to defend it. Cypherpunks know just how hard it is to make good cryptosystems. Cypherpunks love to practice. They love to play with public key cryptography. They love to play with anonymous and pseudonymous mail forwarding and delivery. They love to play with DC-nets. They love to play with secure communications of all kinds. Cypherpunks write code. They know that someone has to write code to defend privacy, and since it's their privacy, they're going to write it. Cypherpunks publish their code so that their fellow Cypherpunks may practice and play with it. Cypherpunks realize that security is not built in a day and are patient with incremental progress. Cypherpunks don't care if you don't like the software they write. Cypherpunks know that software can't be destroyed. Cypherpunks know that a widely dispersed system can't be shut down. Cypherpunks will make the networks safe for privacy." Tim May's statement: "Alt.cypherpunks is for the unmoderated discussion of cryptography and the political, social, and economic implications of unrestricted, strong cryptography. The Cypherpunks grpup has existed since 1992 and has been central in the debate about strong crypto, government restrictions, crypto anarchy, and in showing weaknesses of various ciphers and security products. The mailing list has had as many as 1500 subscribers, plus gateways to newsgroups and Web sites. It is expected that 'alt.cypherpunks' will be a free-wheeling forum for many viewpoints. As it is unmoderated, readers are strongly advised to learn how to use filters and other tools for making virtual anarchies manageable for their own tastes." Q1.2 How did the group get started? Needless to say, the history of such things is fuzzy at best. Eric Hughes and Tim May had some discussions which led to Eric Hughes, decision to host a meeting. Concidently, the first meeting occurred the same week PGP 2.0 was released. John Gilmore offered his site to host a mailing list, and thus Cypherpunks were born. see Q1.2, Q1.4, and Q1.6 for references containing more detail. also see: [Wired article URL] Q1.3 What do Cypherpunks want? Such a simple question with no simple, short answer. Please explore the following sites. Tim May's provacative (and large!) Cyphernomicon http://www.oberlin.edu/~brchkind/cyphernomicon/ The Berkeley Cypherpunks site is another good starting point. ftp://ftp.csua.berkeley.edu/pub/cypherpunks/Home.html Also see: http://www.offshore.com.ai/security/ - Vince Cate's Cryptorebel/Cypherpunk Page http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/ - Joel McNamara's Electronic Privacy Page Q1.4 What happened to the toad.com mailing list? Are there archives? As with all Cypherpunks issues, there is much controversy surrounding the dissolution of the original list hosted by John Gilmore's machine @toad.com. Some say that noise devoured the list to such a point as to make it useless, driving away the "good posters". Others argue that the failed attempt at moderating the list to eliminate some of that noise was the final nail in the coffin. Whatever the reason, Gilmore told the Cypherpunks that it was time to find a new home. Running a mailing list with 1500+ subscription base and the enormous volume that the list had is not a simple task. The physical running of the list on a single machine requires enormous computational resources as well as constant human intervention. Perhaps the resultant newsgroup and distributed mailing list approach is more in line with Cypherpunk ideals. "Cypherpunks know that a widely dispersed system cannot be shut down." Archives of the original list are available to some degree at: http://infinity.nus.sg/cypherpunks/ http://weber.u.washington.edu/~phantom/cpunk/index.html Users interested in running a "node" of the distributed mailing list version of this newsgroup are encouraged to subscribe to Igor Chudov's discussion list on the subject. Send a message to majordomo(a)algebra.com with the body "subscribe cypherpunks-hosts" Q1.5 Are there other groups besides Cypherpunks who share these goals? The following organizations and sites share Cypherpunk goals to a greater or lesser extent. The EFF(Electronic Frontier Foundation) http://eff.org http://eff.org/pub/ITAR_export/HTML/hot.html & http://www.eff.org/pub/Privacy/hot.html - more specific references & extensive archival information EPIC (Electronic Privacy Information Center) http://epic.org Voter's Telecommunications Watch http://www.vtw.org Center for Democracy and Technology http://www.cdt.org The Cryptography List at C2Net is also a good resource. send a message to Majordomo(a)c2.net with the body "subscribe Cryptography" The Coderpunks list at toad.com is a technical discussion forum. Send a message to majordomo(a)toad.com with the body "subscribe coderpunks" Q1.6 What have the Cypherpunks done to advance their goals other that merely talk about them? Many Cypherpunks are professionals in the computer security field. Others work for companies and corporations which create and distribute products utilizing strong cryptography. Cypherpunks are also directly responsible for the creation and running of Type I and Type II(mixmaster) Cypherpunks anonymous remailers (surprising, eh?). see Q2.5 Cypherpunks have also produced software to make good crypto easier for the masses. [Get permission from PGP-front end producers to reference here] The Linux-IPSEC project is another good example. [see & subscribe ref?]. Mykotronx exposure and dumpster diving excursion. [reference?] see Q1.4(list-archive sites) Q1.7 I'm interested, what can I do? First of all READ before you post. Observe simple etiquette. Don't clutter the group with "me too" posts and questions which you can easily find the answer to yourself. Contribute signal, not noise. As of this writing, RSA, inc. is hosting a contest to crack the government standard DES 56 bit algorhythm. See [http://www.rsa.com/contest] for full details. Also see Peter Trei's site for software and info. Host a portion of the distributed mailing list. See Q1.5. Run an anonymous or pseudonymous remailer. see Q1.6 for site references and software. Use strong crypto. Encourage friends to use it as well. Increase the amount of encrypted traffic on the net. Can you code? There are plenty of projects and opportunites yet to be explored. Black Unicorn writes: "Where is highly sophisticated stego? Where are larger keys for symetric ciphers? Where is a fully functional and secure "stealth PGP"? Where are anonymous and encrypted WWW clients and hosts which permit chaining? If the crypto war is going to be lost it will be lost in the chill of development when crypto regulation is put into place. If you don't make the guns in the first place, the government has a much easier time taking them away." Q1.8 What are all these terms and acronyms anyway? Here's a quick-n-dirty glossary. GAK = Government access to keys. Government euphemisms for GAK include "key escrow" and "key recovery" (actually important for corporations, but misused in recent USG proposals) USG = United States Government ITAR = International Trade and Arms Regulations. Regulations export of arms from the US. Strong Crypto is regulated as a weapon by this document. see Q3.2 EAR = Encryption Algorhythm Regulations (a guess, look it up) Recent proposals by Clinton Administration. see Q3.2 TLA = Three Letter Acronym/Agency. Refers to USG agencies (typically involved in law enforcement) FBI, CIA, NSA, etc. NSA = National Security Agency. This highly secretive agency is responsible for the protection of USG secrecy via encryption as well as the spying on other governments by breaking encryption algorhythms. see Q4.8 DES = US Data Encryption Standard algorhythm. see Q2.9 RSA = a company and a public key algorhythm. see Q2.9 and Q2.3 net.loon/kook = a purely subjective characterization. Signal-to-Noise ratio = Signal refers to on-topic posts. Noise, the opposite. A high S/N ratio means the list is putting out a lot of signal("good posts"). Subjective, but fairly obvious. See Section 5 for pointers no how to reduce (what you think is) noise Memes = [get a good definition here] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [Rest of FAQ goes here :) This is a pre-alpha FAQ, intended only to solicit commentary and suggestions.] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: latin1 iQCVAwUBMwJViqb3EfJTqNC9AQHigwP+IAXu+PO7aGiR/zZxz91PhnYuYvTy3jMN HzO4djcx44auPMjh6pFpmWJuYRcoxVHXCh2JO4UOR3cNYloxikwY4hGgYx8jLgN1 XORQztiCGMI/2ScVsi8tH6eJLCuZxmE7s8semel4CC8xH3H74vCiBNZD6iyyIXOG oMkSnOVFAQg= =Fdky -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Been good to know ya ...
by Rabid Wombat 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Later, all. And thanks to John for all the work he has put in to maintaining the list. Last one to leave, turn out the lights. -r.w.

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Re: anonymity and e-cash
by tcmay＠got.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups: alt.cypherpunks, talk.politics.crypto,sci.crypt) At 1:19 PM -0800 2/12/97, Lee Tien wrote (on the Cypherpunks(a)toad.com list): >The NSA's research report on e-cash says: > > "The ideal situation (from the point of view of privacy advocates) >is that neither payer nor payee should know the identity of the other. This >makes remote transactions using electronic cash totally anonymous: no one >knows where Alice spends her money and who pays her. > > "It turns out that this is too much to ask: there is no way in such >a scenario for the consumer to obtain a signed receipt. Thus we are forced >to settle for payer anonymity." > >Keeping in mind I am only a lawyer, my skim of Schneier (2d ed.) didn't >illuminate. The discussion of digital cash seemed to assume no payee >anonymity. But the immediate previous section of dining cryptographers >involved (it seemed) recipient untraceability. > >Is payee anonymity technically possible? Under what conditions? > >If so, is the issue social, e.g., as NSA notes, the lack of a signed receipt? You missed a very good talk by Ian Goldberg of UC Berkeley at the Saturday Cypherpunks meeting at Stanford, where Ian talked for more than an hour on just this issue. (He also talked for an hour on his crack of the RSA challenge using 250 workstations...this was also a good talk.) It was explicitly stated in Chaum's 1985 paper that methods existed to ensure full untraceability. Chaum has in recent years emphasized a more "surveillance friendly" system in which some of the anonymity is lost. It was the intuition of some of us that "coin changers" could solve this problem, e.g, by having intermediaries to "mix" the coins and thus break the traceability chain. Lucky Green wrote some articles along these lines, and maybe Hal Finney, too. This was a couple of years ago. The notion is similar to what Ian showed, but our arguments were not formal and robust. In August of '95, Doug Barnes released a long article on "Identity Agnostic" systems. (His article is no longer at the www.communities.com Web site, so I can't refer you to it. Maybe he'll post it again.) About a year ago Ian Goldberg considered this issue and came up with a solution which has seemingly reproduced what Chaum was thinking about (but, apparently, did not make completely clear in his papers, for whatever reasons). Ian deals with the issue of "making change" and comes up with a system in which intermediaries, which we may call "e-cashiers" and "moneychangers," can take on the role of the mint/bank. By making "negative deposits" (submitting signed withdrawal slips, effectively), these intermediaries function as moneychangers. And so the one-way anonymous features become two-way (effectively, each of the transactions contributes a "one-way anonymous" component: one-way + one-way = two-way). It is much easier to understand digital cash with the usual diagram showing the usual triangle of CUSTOMER-MERCHANT-MINT and then analyzing the flow of information, who knows what, etc. Drawing such diagrams in e-mail is beyond my patience. This system used online clearing, of course. This "disintermediates" the process, and makes for an "everyone a mint" situation, which has some of the same nice properties that an "everyone a remailer" ecology of remailers and users has. And the principle can be extended further back, to where the usual distinctions between CUSTOMER and MERCHANT vanish (as it sort of does in the real world, where the two parties are merely exchanging one item for another item), and where the role of the MINT is minimal. In fact, Ian showed, the Chaum patents on blinding are NOT USED by the Mint/Bank; only the CUSTOMER uses the blinding patents (and the MERCHANT in some cases, not in other cases). This means that "anyone a mint" does not violate any of the Chaum/Digicash patents, and "mint clients" are likely to be written by third parties. (The _customer_ is presumably on the honor system to abide by the Chaum patents...except the patents are only being licensed to banks...go figure.) (This is where, as I recall, Doug's "agnostic" system came in...it is possible his thinking was similar to Ian's...I don't have Doug's paper handy.) Ian demonstrated this on an actual system, with real live connections to mints in various countries, but with the blinding not used (as I recall). Draw your own conclusions about what this means. It was heady stuff, seeing the result many of us believed to be implicit in Chaum's 1985 paper made real. Everyone a mint. This makes the spread of fully anonymous digital cash harder to stop. Issues of the mint denying one has an account are always real ones, but not important--I think--in the real world. The untraceability of the digital coins means that a mint never knows who is testing it for reliability and "honesty," and the mint cannot set out to "screw" a particular customer by declaring his account not to exist (as the mint almost certainly does not have to know who own which accounts, as deposits can be made anonymously). I hope this helps. I plan to use this result centrally in my talk at the panel discussion on "Governmental and Social Implications of Digital Cash" at the upcoming CFP. --Tim May -- Boycott "Big Brother Inside" software! We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, we know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Licensed Ontologist | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Spam posts from my acct.
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Cpunks, A number of spam mails (I counted about 100 in my incoming mail) were sent to the list from my account last night. I do not take particular precautions with my password for this account as there is no sensitive mail sent through it, I recall in particular giving the password to someone to test out a machine recently and I believe they may be the culprit. Again, my appologies for the inconvenience and you have to admit that while his method may have been less than subtle his message was certainly something we can all relate to ;-) Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Re: John Gilmore the fascist cocksucker
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> Why you are doing this, Paul? > > - Igor. It would appear that someone I gave my password to the other day (I recieve no sensitive mail through this account) so they could use it to test a machine has a rather infantile sense of humour and have taken my critical posts to the list to mean that I want to spam a mailing list with dreck like this. I shall ensure the offending fool is castrated forthwith... Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Re: Excerpt on SPAM from Edupage, 11 February 1997
by Timothy C. May 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 6:21 PM +0000 2/12/97, Attila T. Hun wrote: > maybe relief is in sight; can we spell excedrin? > >on or about 970211:1433 educom(a)elanor.oit.unc.edu said: > >+COURT GRANTS COMPUSERVE INJUNCTION AGAINST JUNK E-MAIL > >+A U.S. district court in Ohio has granted CompuServe's request for a >+preliminary injunction barring Cyber Promotions Inc. from sending >+unsolicited e-mail to its subscribers while the commercial provider ... Were I a customer of CompuServe, I'd ask on what basis CompuServe was intercepting e-mail to me. In fact, a CompuServe account holder has made just this point: "I'll decide what's junk mail and what's not." Having the court system involved in deciding what mail is valid and what is not valid is not my idea of a free society. Having said this, the flaw remains that "junk mail" is "free" to the sender. This is a flaw in the ontology of e-mail, and needs to be fixed. Digital postage is one approach. I'm not holding my breath, but I sure don't want a "District Court" deciding. --Tim May Just say "No" to "Big Brother Inside" We got computers, we're tapping phone lines, I know that that ain't allowed. ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay(a)got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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Extensis CyberViewer Registration
by webmaster＠extensis.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

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Re: Recommendation: Creation of "alt.cypherpunks"
by Firebeard 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>>>>> Timothy C May writes: TCM> Since posting my comments I've just seen the proposal that tivoli TCM> may host a list. Whoa, Nellie! Who made that proposal? It certainly wasn't me! I said that I was taking steps to set up a majordomo to host a cypherpunks list. Topmost on those steps is creation of the sten.net or sten.org domain, and getting a personal, paid-for-out-of-my-own-pocket, ISDN connection. The majordomo will run off of my personal computer sitting in my apartment, not on Tivoli hardware sitting in the support lab. As I said, John forced my hand in his announcement, causing me to 'put up' before everything was in place, including the domain registration. Yes, my mail comes from sten.tivoli.com. That doesn't mean that everything I do in life is connected to Tivoli, IBM, etc. -- #include <disclaimer.h> /* Sten Drescher */ Unsolicited bulk email will be stored and handled for a US$500/KB fee. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning, it is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. -- Carlos Nunes-Ueno, 3/29/95

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