December 2003 - cypherpunks-legacy

REMOVE
by MSI: Patrick D. O'Brien 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

REMOVE

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Re: GSM technology
by Nurdane Oksas 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > Nurdane Oksas <oksas(a)asimov.montclair.edu> writes: > > > On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas(a)asimov.montclair.edu> writes: > > > > > > > ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait . > > > > > > What kind of movies? > > > > You're too young to watch these..:) > > I'm older than you... Do you mean I'm too old to watch these? Yes physically you are older and wiser; And watching 'wild orchid' would be detrimental to your health. thinking of you, oksas!

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Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls) (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:29:05 -0800 > From: Steve Schear <azur(a)netcom.com> > Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls) > > followed up, but it seems entirely reasonable a practicle. In fact I'm > surprised that Hollywood hasn't latched onto this in order to dub film > stars to different languages w/o loosing their recognizable voice > characteristics. In this regards you people (en toto) need to do a little more real world research in this area. Voice recognition is and has been easy to do for decades. As to what Hollywood is doing, not only are they doing voice masking but your local radio station does it on a regular basis [1] for a few $1,000's in hardware and software. [1] Video Toaster User Dec. 1996 Toaster Talk - "Learning from radio" pp. 6 Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Seismic Crypto
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla in the 1930s. Would any of our weapons connoisseurs have more info on what these are and how they were supposed to work? Electrical, chemical, nuclear? That Aussie blast has still not been identified except that it was something in the nuclear weapon, earthquake or meteorite range. The Arum sect, which owned 500,000 acres in the viciniity, was a suspect for a while but later cleared, although it was looking into seismic weapons. Will send the story: WHA_the Or read it at www.nytimes.com

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Re: Airport security [no such thing]
by Nurdane Oksas 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > Nurdane Oksas <oksas(a)asimov.montclair.edu> writes: > > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas(a)asimov.montclair.edu> writes: > > > > > > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > > > > > > Nurdane Oksas <oksas(a)asimov.montclair.edu> writes: > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > > > > > snow <snow(a)smoke.suba.com> writes: > > > > > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>shudder<< > > > > > > > > > No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with cl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one I really don't understand. Cypherpunks lobbied heavily fo > > > > > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the per > > > > > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at t > > > > > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage > > > > > > > compartment. And planes have those little blankets and pillows, > > > > > > > so what's the problem? > > > > > > > > > > > > Cold temps... > > > > > > > > > > What can naked people do to keep warm??? > > > > > > > > steal blankets from nearby passenger.. > > > > > > I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab > > > and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal > > > some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good- > > > looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!). > > > > Thank you for the complement; You've only seen me with clothes :) > > I can tell. > > > Would you like to share my blanket? > > Sure! A true gentleman (like me) is always ready, willing, and able to share > a security blanket with a lady. I am very embarassed... > > "Something nekkid's in the air!" > i think i am in trouble ;) > --- > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM > Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps >

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The Purpose of the List
by Blanc Weber 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

If the cpunk list discusses only crypto, then mathematician-programmers will do their cold work in an isolation which eliminates the need to think about the consequences of their actions. So discussions on philosophy, society, etc., are important, to remind everyone of the context within which this subject operates. However, if "community feeling" is the only thing created on the list, and crypto is no longer the focal topic, then what is to be accomplished: the list will become just a playing ground for wayward KOTM PhDs who are not welcome in most other cyberspaces. So the question of "how will this impact society", must maintain association with "but how does this relate to crypto?". (unless the list has changed its stripes, evolving into something completely different, which many will agree it has). .. Blanc

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Seismic Crypto
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla in the 1930s. Would any of our weapons connoisseurs have more info on what these are and how they were supposed to work? Electrical, chemical, nuclear? That Aussie blast has still not been identified except that it was something in the nuclear weapon, earthquake or meteorite range. The Arum sect, which owned 500,000 acres in the viciniity, was a suspect for a while but later cleared, although it was looking into seismic weapons. Will send the story: WHA_the Or read it at www.nytimes.com

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The Purpose of the List
by Blanc Weber 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

If the cpunk list discusses only crypto, then mathematician-programmers will do their cold work in an isolation which eliminates the need to think about the consequences of their actions. So discussions on philosophy, society, etc., are important, to remind everyone of the context within which this subject operates. However, if "community feeling" is the only thing created on the list, and crypto is no longer the focal topic, then what is to be accomplished: the list will become just a playing ground for wayward KOTM PhDs who are not welcome in most other cyberspaces. So the question of "how will this impact society", must maintain association with "but how does this relate to crypto?". (unless the list has changed its stripes, evolving into something completely different, which many will agree it has). .. Blanc

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FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications
by Ross Wright 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

||| FBI moderates its communications-surveillance request ||| TBTF for 5/4/95 [6] In 1995 the FBI asked for and was granted $500 million to augment the government's ability to tap communications (of this total $100M has been released to the FBI so far). Privacy advocates expressed outrage at the FBI's stated capacity goal: to be able to listen in on 1% of installed telephone lines at any time. This translates to about 1.6 million taps simultaneous of all kinds: pen registers, trap-and-trace, and wiretaps. The FBI withdrew its initial proposal under fire and on 1/14 submitted a revised proposal -- press release at [7], analysis at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical numbers of intercepts. [6] <http://www.tbtf.com/archive/05-04-95.html> [7] <http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/tele/telephon.htm> [8] <http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_3.01.html> Fuck the FBI. Ross =-=-=-=-=-=- Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906

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Nikola Tesla
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:39:48 -0500 > From: John Young <jya(a)pipeline.com> > Subject: Seismic Crypto > > In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the > Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic > weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla > in the 1930s. First, it's Nikola Tesla. At least do the man the honor of getting his name correct (he is a personal hero of mine), I mean he ONLY invented the AC power system we use today, the first commercial power generation plant at Niagra Falls in the world, the first torpedo which he sold to the Russians because the USN was too stupid to buy it, radio, remote control via radio, wireless power transmission, etc... Second, there is a LOT of hogwash attributed to Nikola which he in actuality never worked on (ie death rays, flying saucers to the interior of the Earth, etc.). If you would like to learn more about him then check out "The Writings and Inventions of Nikola Tesla", it was proofed by him prior to its publication. You will also find in most bookstores a copy of all his American patents in "The Collected Patents of Nikola Tesla". I apologize for not providing ISBN's but my copies are 30 miles away in my shop being used to build Tesla Coils. I would strongly suggest avoiding the Tesla Society as it is, in my opinion, populated by a bunch of UFO and conspiracy crazies (though a small percentage of their articles are useable). His work on 'artificial earthquakes' dealt with his studies on mechanical coupling between tuned oscillators. He was finaly 'asked' to leave because he would get 4-5 square block areas of New York rocking, much to the chagrin of the residents, by coupling pile-driver like oscillators to the building he lived in. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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North American crypto site -- correction
by Michael Paul Johnson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Correction: the "front door" to the North American crypto site is http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/getcrypt.htm (the /usa was missing in in an earlier post) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Personal Edition iQEVAgUBMuWW/W+Iqt/O4EnZAQHnSAgAmMNA1UcEsd8wTkLz50ayj16t8SCFnfLs y86ZwxUd0aD7PoyMwGXbr2KkY9E9/I+CQAf9P56DbxDSCWWPzZA0Tydy0Zb+yeH1 +hIoFYMJbWi4nj34B1OtiZeNW9QbWxqyD7CUu8gdaRncxM83tsFY9UAQd8+wyV3w IFyrT6MZj+WLNBh1IhzkKTSdJzNW1mool97hm2KHH/nVuSYtBiVixmeTXkyoB5NU NfesjceO9g0PrVl0jW7NE1kOCJteFI2AAEaAKVYLVYvgvEdGSUkO0DnAXzVFCGKv Eb7/Wk0S7YVEFgVfamxsHvu/PoofVnvXX92UtXPhcHmbobqANA/yfg== =2ZhX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Jesus Christ is coming back with power and glory! Are you READY? mailto:mpj@csn.net Bible site-> http://www.sni.net/~mpj Is 40:31 BBS 303-772-1062 PGPprint=3E67A5800DFBD16A 6D52D3A91C074E41

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Encrypting ZIP drives?
by Lucky Green 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm

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Encrypting ZIP drives?
by Lucky Green 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm

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North American crypto site -- correction
by Michael Paul Johnson 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Correction: the "front door" to the North American crypto site is http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/getcrypt.htm (the /usa was missing in in an earlier post) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Personal Edition iQEVAgUBMuWW/W+Iqt/O4EnZAQHnSAgAmMNA1UcEsd8wTkLz50ayj16t8SCFnfLs y86ZwxUd0aD7PoyMwGXbr2KkY9E9/I+CQAf9P56DbxDSCWWPzZA0Tydy0Zb+yeH1 +hIoFYMJbWi4nj34B1OtiZeNW9QbWxqyD7CUu8gdaRncxM83tsFY9UAQd8+wyV3w IFyrT6MZj+WLNBh1IhzkKTSdJzNW1mool97hm2KHH/nVuSYtBiVixmeTXkyoB5NU NfesjceO9g0PrVl0jW7NE1kOCJteFI2AAEaAKVYLVYvgvEdGSUkO0DnAXzVFCGKv Eb7/Wk0S7YVEFgVfamxsHvu/PoofVnvXX92UtXPhcHmbobqANA/yfg== =2ZhX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Jesus Christ is coming back with power and glory! Are you READY? mailto:mpj@csn.net Bible site-> http://www.sni.net/~mpj Is 40:31 BBS 303-772-1062 PGPprint=3E67A5800DFBD16A 6D52D3A91C074E41

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Re: The Purpose of the List
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Blanc Weber wrote: > If the cpunk list discusses only crypto, then mathematician-programmers > will do their cold work in an isolation which eliminates the need to > think about the consequences of their actions. > So discussions on philosophy, society, etc., are important, to remind > everyone of the context within which this subject operates. > However, if "community feeling" is the only thing created on the list, > and crypto is no longer the focal topic, then what is to be > accomplished: the list will become just a playing ground for wayward > KOTM PhDs who are not welcome in most other cyberspaces. > So the question of "how will this impact society", must maintain > association with "but how does this relate to crypto?". (unless the > list has changed its stripes, evolving into something completely > different, which many will agree it has). It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same: Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings".

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Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment
by Dale Thorn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Alec wrote: > :Jane Jefferson wrote: > :> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", > :> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to > :> individual. > Not only from individual to individual. > Please consider the changes in the concepts of "sin", "freedom", "good", > and "evil" which occur over time even within the same individual; to > wit the on and off again love affair with our nation's past "enemies; > individual responses to drug use especially alcohol; premarital sex > (ok for me but not my daughter). > This constant flux within both society and individual makes creation > and implementation of rules extremely difficult and hazardous. The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception. If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin" is taking one's attention from God's intent and turning to man's intent, which is inherently selfish. "Evil" is the selfish thing you do, when you should do the unselfish thing. These are not that difficult to understand, but are easily twisted by selfish minds. A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but rather the liberty to do what you ought to do".

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Nikola Tesla
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:39:48 -0500 > From: John Young <jya(a)pipeline.com> > Subject: Seismic Crypto > > In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the > Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic > weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla > in the 1930s. First, it's Nikola Tesla. At least do the man the honor of getting his name correct (he is a personal hero of mine), I mean he ONLY invented the AC power system we use today, the first commercial power generation plant at Niagra Falls in the world, the first torpedo which he sold to the Russians because the USN was too stupid to buy it, radio, remote control via radio, wireless power transmission, etc... Second, there is a LOT of hogwash attributed to Nikola which he in actuality never worked on (ie death rays, flying saucers to the interior of the Earth, etc.). If you would like to learn more about him then check out "The Writings and Inventions of Nikola Tesla", it was proofed by him prior to its publication. You will also find in most bookstores a copy of all his American patents in "The Collected Patents of Nikola Tesla". I apologize for not providing ISBN's but my copies are 30 miles away in my shop being used to build Tesla Coils. I would strongly suggest avoiding the Tesla Society as it is, in my opinion, populated by a bunch of UFO and conspiracy crazies (though a small percentage of their articles are useable). His work on 'artificial earthquakes' dealt with his studies on mechanical coupling between tuned oscillators. He was finaly 'asked' to leave because he would get 4-5 square block areas of New York rocking, much to the chagrin of the residents, by coupling pile-driver like oscillators to the building he lived in. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

1 0

FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications
by Ross Wright 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

||| FBI moderates its communications-surveillance request ||| TBTF for 5/4/95 [6] In 1995 the FBI asked for and was granted $500 million to augment the government's ability to tap communications (of this total $100M has been released to the FBI so far). Privacy advocates expressed outrage at the FBI's stated capacity goal: to be able to listen in on 1% of installed telephone lines at any time. This translates to about 1.6 million taps simultaneous of all kinds: pen registers, trap-and-trace, and wiretaps. The FBI withdrew its initial proposal under fire and on 1/14 submitted a revised proposal -- press release at [7], analysis at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical numbers of intercepts. [6] <http://www.tbtf.com/archive/05-04-95.html> [7] <http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/tele/telephon.htm> [8] <http://www.cdt.org/publications/pp_3.01.html> Fuck the FBI. Ross =-=-=-=-=-=- Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906

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Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:50:15 -0500 > From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam(a)ai.mit.edu> > Subject: Fighting the cybercensor. > > Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think > this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any particular view on them. If Billy-Bob wants to shoot himself in the foot, let him. Might be purty funny to watch. > The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice > between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of > speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal. Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share data in a easily digestible format. The web and technology in general have no more ethics or morality intrinsicly in them than a 5/8" open end wrench. Blocking and filtering are an expression of human choice and the implimentation thereof. You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an invitation. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
by David E. Smith 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:35 PM 1/21/97 -0800, you wrote: >I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. >Any advice would be appreciated. IBM or Mac? Methinks (and I haven't tried it, but I think I will soon) that at least on the IBM side, the usual realm of existing software (SecureDrive/SecureDevice are the first things that come to mind) ought to work. After the Iomega ZIP drivers are in place, the Zip drive is 'just another drive' as far as most applications can see. dave

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Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment"
by Bill Campbell 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Sean Roach <roach_s(a)alph.swosu.edu> wrote: > At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote: > >Bill Campbell wrote: > > > >> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the > >> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced. > > > > Dr. Vulis? There was an 'attempt' to silence him, but it hasn't > >worked, to date. > > > I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis. As long as the > members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one > less challenger in the fight over our rights. > Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself. I thought my meaning was obvious, but thanks for pointing it out to those who didn't get it. When I first began reading this list, I realized that a lot of important information was being put out; and it certainly raised my awareness of issues that I had not previously thought about. I believe that many other subscribers to the list also were exposed to many of these concepts, and that many subscribers to the list were people who could make a difference. I fear that many have now left the list, since it now seems to resemble, in many ways, a list consisting of high school age "wannabes" who think it's really cool to attack people just because they can. The downward spiral into inconsequential meaningless postings began with posts containing the word "fart". So cool, dudes. =Bill=

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ADSL (Was: GSM technology
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote: > Does anyone use ADSL lines? or are they still very expensive? They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US) phone companies offer it as more than trials. One limitation is that the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at your local telco wire center. Of course, your local telco has to have something useful to do with the bits once the user sends them to the telco, and has to have some useful bits to send the user. This means they've got to haggle about standards for 5 more years (or just do the right thing and deploy IP, with some respectable bandwidth to the outside world) (or deploy ATM to get a layer 2 connection to something outside.) Don't know if the telcos have a clue about pricing, either. It's obviously got to be more than cost, but they'll probably thrash around a lot the way they did with IP.... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)

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Re: Wow.
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:58 AM 1/19/97 -0500, Amanda Walker wrote: >I'm off to look for a mailing list where people are ACTUALLY DISCUSSING >CRYPTOGRAPHY AND IMPLEMENTING CRYPTOSYSTEMS. This list may still be >called "cypherpunks", but it doesn't have much cypherpunk left in it, as >far as I can tell. To some extent it's bad timing - there's been enough flaming on the list (including a few bad apples really harassing it) that John Gilmore decided it was time to start moderating the list, and that's led to a bunch of flames about moderation. But it was getting pretty bad. About a year ago the coderpunks(a)toad.com list got started; it's just for discussing code and related issues, not politics. It's moderated by the "Please be nice, and we'll kick you off for abuse" method, and it's worked out fine, though it's usually quiet. Also, a month or two ago, Perry Metzger started cryptography(a)c2.net , which is a bit more general but not for flaming. Perry moderates it. Both use -request to find the listbot. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)

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Re: mailing list
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 02:54 AM 1/18/97 -0500, roamer.fau wrote: >Please place me on your mailing list. > Thank You, > Mark > > cypherpunks-request(a)toad.com "help" # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)

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Re: Donna Rice, etc.
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>Yes, it's the very same Bimbo who scuttled Gary Hart's campaign, I think you have to give Gary all the credit for that; the "Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong and you could follow me around 24 hours a day and not find anything" bit convinced me that Hart was a major flake, and doing it when the only credible Democrat to take over after him was Walter F@#&! Mondale was just unconscionable. If he'd said something like "Get Off My Ass" or "Reagan's not on his first wife, so what's your point" or "my marriage is off limits" or whatever I'd have had some respect, and for a Democrat he hadn't seemed to be that bad. > but when she tries to tell me what I should or shouldn't be able to > see, my reply *must* be: > Fuck you, you hypocritical, ignorant, little slut. >I am also going to take issue with her trysting with a married man. >I wish Hart's wife had verbally beaten the living shit out of her. She's a _former_ bimbo, who has ostensibly rehabilitated herself. Not that that puts her in a position to throw stones at other people.. >Obligatory Crypto Policy reference: Why couldn't she have scuttled >Feurher Clinton's career, instead? Not enough room to fool around on a bass-fishing boat? # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)

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Re: Fascist cocksuckers: 0, Freedom of speech: 1
by Otto Matic 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>> John Young wrote: >> > Governments in China, Burma and >> > Singapore have already tried to discipline this on-line activity with >> > minimal success. >> >> Do you have any pointers to information in regard to this, or are you >> just being a goddamn tease? > >For example, the fascist cocksuckers Sandfart and Geekmore have been >totally impotent in their failed attempts to suppress free speech. > >Gilmore's as inept as the governments of China, Burma and Singapore combined. > > FUCK CENSORSHIP. FUCK EFF (EFFEMINATE FASCISTS FOUNDATION). > >--- > Seems as if you've been censored! Bummer, dude! 0tto otto =-=-=-=-=- Otto Matic "Fuckin' A, Miller!" Bud, Repo Man --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Fighting the cybercensor.
by Otto Matic 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From cypherpunks-errors(a)toad.com Tue Jan 21 16:57:46 1997 >"Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam(a)ai.mit.edu> writes: > >> Mission: >> >> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think >> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web >> was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice >> between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of >> speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal. > >Phil, when I saw the subject, I thought this was another article >condemning Gilmore, Sandfort, and their disgraceful censorship. What's up with this one getting censored? You didn't say cocksucker or fuck or anything? Otto otto =-=-=-=-=- Otto Matic "Fuckin' A, Miller!" Bud, Repo Man --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ---------------------------------------------------------

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Re: Encrypting ZIP drives?
by Lucky Green 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:21 AM 1/22/97 -0600, David E. Smith wrote: >At 09:35 PM 1/21/97 -0800, you wrote: >>I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. >>Any advice would be appreciated. > >IBM or Mac? Parallel on Win95. Thanks, -- Lucky Green <mailto:shamrock@netcom.com> PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm

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Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition
by pgut001＠cs.auckland.ac.nz 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

I've found another collection of references on speech scanning/recognition, the February 1989 CACM, p.193, contains 38 references going back to 1980. It'd be an interesting exercise for anyone with access to a large library to trace back through these (some of them look promising, like a 1980 book "Trends in Speech Recognition" from which a number of references are taken) to see how far back you can go and at what point certain things became feasible. The CACM references would be a good starting point for a search. Peter.

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Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation (fwd)
by proff＠suburbia.net 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>From owner-freebsd-hackers(a)freefall.freebsd.org Wed Jan 22 09:05:30 1997 Return-Path: <owner-freebsd-hackers(a)freefall.freebsd.org> Delivered-To: proff(a)suburbia.net Received: (qmail 7399 invoked from network); 22 Jan 1997 09:05:21 -0000 Received: from mail.webspan.net (206.154.70.7) by suburbia.net with SMTP; 22 Jan 1997 09:05:21 -0000 Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by mail.webspan.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA22296; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:00:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA22550; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 00:25:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (from root@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA22415 for hackers-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 00:20:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ajax.wcs.uq.edu.au (ajax.wcs.uq.edu.au [130.102.222.4]) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA22410 for <hackers(a)FreeBSD.ORG>; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 00:20:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from gdr@localhost) by ajax.wcs.uq.edu.au (8.6.8/8.6.6) id SAA11281; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:18:43 +1000 From: Gary Roberts <gdr(a)ajax.wcs.uq.edu.au> Message-Id: <199701220818.SAA11281(a)ajax.wcs.uq.edu.au> Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation To: jkh(a)time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:18:42 +1000 (EST) Cc: hackers(a)FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1045.853896142(a)time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Jan 21, 97 05:22:22 pm Organisation: The University of Queensland Phone: +617 3844 0400 Reply-To: gdr(a)wcs.uq.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Sender: owner-hackers(a)FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan K. Hubbard writes: > But that doesn't even raise the biggest issue, which is: > > > Freddy Kruger (Kruger(a)ElmStreet.org) has submitted the > > following policy topic for discussion: > > > > > FreeBSD should move from a.out to ELF. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [ ... various amounts of discussion for 5 days ... ] > > Freddy raises the issue and 10 people vote on it, 7 feeling ELF-ish > enough that the motion "passes." > > Now what? We've got this as a supposed piece of "FreeBSD Policy" now > and users will surely expect it to be implemented or there wouldn't be ... Actually, I think you'll find he was proposing a two stage process where the above example only allows a further vote to be taken as to whether or not it should become `policy'. This second stage is where you spend your vote tokens if you want to stop something passing. You are really alluding to the possibility of things `passing' due to apathy of the vast majority. That could be easily fixed. I imaging that people with `vote tokens' have them because they are registered as `adherents' to the FreeBSD religion. The Votebot could send each adherent a re-registration slip, say every three months. No reply means you are automatically removed from the adherents list and your voting rights disappear. You can easily re-instate yourself at any time and your previous vote tokens (if any) are then restored. In this way you trim out people who have lost the religion. At the first stage of voting, a decision to have a real vote on a policy change will *only* be made if (a) a significant fraction of adherents take part in the vote AND (b) there is a majority of `yes' over `no'. That way, if there is general apathy, the thing dies. At the second `real vote' stage, you must then decide whether to spend your vote tokens. Once again, things `pass' only if a quorum is involved and there is a majority of `yes' over `no' votes. The required quorum could be quite different for the first and second stages of voting. For example, the quorum to decide whether or not to put things to a vote could be set at say 20% which would not stifle the process but the quorum to actually change policy could be say 40 - 50% to make sure that a vocal minority couldn't `roll' the silent majority. Terry did offer to implement the voting system. Why not take him up on his offer with the first question to be decided being:- Q. Should changes in FreeBSD policy be made by an auto-voting system? and if you get a `yes' on that then the second could be:- Q. Does the Emperor have some clothes after all?? :-). Seriously, it might be useful to have the user community vote on important policy issues (like a.out versus ELF) knowing that there is really no binding commitment on volunteers to do anything if it doesn't suit the volunteers. I'm sure everyone really does understand and accept that. It would also be useful to kill off discussion that has exceeded its use-by date (like this thread) by putting it to a vote and then getting on with more useful things. All the above is, of course, IMHO. Cheers, -- Gary Roberts (gdr(a)wcs.uq.edu.au) (Ph +617 3844 0400 Fax +617 3844 0444) 4th Floor, South Bank House, 234 Grey St, South Bank QLD 4101 Australia.

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Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs
by Richard L. Field 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

That would be Samuel Slater, who built his mill in Pawtucket, Rhode Island (still there, on Roosevelt Avenue) in 1793. He reproduced his former boss's factory from memory in order to collect on a bounty offered in the US on the export-restricted patent. - Richard Field At 06:39 PM 1/21/97 -0500, Sean Roach <roach_s(a)alph.swosu.edu> wrote: >This has often reminded me of something that occurred around 1776. >I can't remember if it was before or after. >Remember how the colonies got sophisticated spinning gear? >I believe it was spinning gear. >Great Britain had a ban on the export of functional models, diagrams or >manufacturing instructions to one particular class of equipment. This was >so that they could maintain the monopoly on cheaply made cloth, holding the >outlying colonies in line by maintaining a dependancy. >One man memorized the structure of one of these machines and then came to >the American shores, where he reproduced it workably. > >I can't remember the name of the man or the machine, just that it was used >in the manufacture of cloth, the "spinning jenny" i think. Nor can I >remember the date.

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ADSL (Was: GSM technology
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote: > Does anyone use ADSL lines? or are they still very expensive? They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US) phone companies offer it as more than trials. One limitation is that the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at your local telco wire center. Of course, your local telco has to have something useful to do with the bits once the user sends them to the telco, and has to have some useful bits to send the user. This means they've got to haggle about standards for 5 more years (or just do the right thing and deploy IP, with some respectable bandwidth to the outside world) (or deploy ATM to get a layer 2 connection to something outside.) Don't know if the telcos have a clue about pricing, either. It's obviously got to be more than cost, but they'll probably thrash around a lot the way they did with IP.... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)

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Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:50:15 -0500 > From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam(a)ai.mit.edu> > Subject: Fighting the cybercensor. > > Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think > this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any particular view on them. If Billy-Bob wants to shoot himself in the foot, let him. Might be purty funny to watch. > The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice > between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of > speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal. Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share data in a easily digestible format. The web and technology in general have no more ethics or morality intrinsicly in them than a 5/8" open end wrench. Blocking and filtering are an expression of human choice and the implimentation thereof. You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an invitation. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Re: Wow.
by Bill Stewart 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 12:58 AM 1/19/97 -0500, Amanda Walker wrote: >I'm off to look for a mailing list where people are ACTUALLY DISCUSSING >CRYPTOGRAPHY AND IMPLEMENTING CRYPTOSYSTEMS. This list may still be >called "cypherpunks", but it doesn't have much cypherpunk left in it, as >far as I can tell. To some extent it's bad timing - there's been enough flaming on the list (including a few bad apples really harassing it) that John Gilmore decided it was time to start moderating the list, and that's led to a bunch of flames about moderation. But it was getting pretty bad. About a year ago the coderpunks(a)toad.com list got started; it's just for discussing code and related issues, not politics. It's moderated by the "Please be nice, and we'll kick you off for abuse" method, and it's worked out fine, though it's usually quiet. Also, a month or two ago, Perry Metzger started cryptography(a)c2.net , which is a bit more general but not for flaming. Perry moderates it. Both use -request to find the listbot. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts(a)ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.)

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Re: A moment with Dale (Rejection policy, etc.)
by nobody＠huge.cajones.com 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 From: Dale Thorn <dthorn(a)gte.net> CC: cypherpunks(a)toad.com Subject: Re: Rejection policy, etc. Dale Thorn obviously wrote: >I have a great deal of respect for power. When I was 6, I unwound a >coat hanger and put both ends into an electrical outlet. All I >remember from that is something like a sledgehammer hitting me, and >I went backwards rather quickly. And I never did it again. Why do I do this? Typical Dale. A moment with Dale. Stories from the past. However, there may be some grain of truth in this. Such socket poking might well explain Dale's (shall I say) specialness. He went backwards quickly and has, relentlessly, never reversed direction. Too bad he didn't keep on doing it again and again. Ho hum. More Dale. XO

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[noise] RE: Shave the Whales
by Mullen, Patrick 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Is there a way we can keep the caricatures w/out getting the rest of the message w/ these postings? I like the ASCII art, but... BTW, I don't know if the joke was in the original posting (I notice the RE: header), but -- Mammals have hair. Whales are mammals. Shave the whales! ~ Patrick >---------- >From: Huge Cajones Remailer[SMTP:nobody@huge.cajones.com] >Sent: Monday, January 27, 1997 4:30 PM >To: cypherpunks(a)toad.com >Subject: Re: Shave the Whales > >Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy died of AIDS last night with his >homosexual lover. > > \|/ > @ @ > -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy > > > >

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RE: Fighting the cybercensor
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:00 PM 1/27/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >blanc <blancw(a)cnw.com> writes: ... >> 2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this >> themselves? > >Perhaps because they love Saddam, who really is a great guy. Stop listening >to what U.S.gubmint and media tell you and use your brain. What did >Saddam do to _you? Those of us in the US have the luxery of secret ballots, Iraq is not. What was reported to me (by the media) was that those who decided to vote against Hussein, in a time when food was scarce, decided to vote against eating. It was not made illegal to vote him out, merely a catch 22, unless enough people agreed openly, the vocal minority would suffer. What we should have been doing as the troops pulled out and a no fly zone was being established was dropping bombs full of bread on the populus. Then they could have voted any which way they chose. ... >> Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because >> they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and >> 2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it. You might be >> able to kill off one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting >> in the wings to take his place. The situation surrounding the existence >> of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him >> there, not simply that one man himself. It was the same with Hitler and >> with so many others - they don't just have an excess of "power" >> concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over >> others - there will have been many people who will have helped put them >> there, expecting to derive benefits from it. > >I don't like your Saddam example, having much admiration for the man, but >again this goes back to the perceived likelihood of future assassination. >If Saddam is killed in an unlikely event, he will be succeeded by someone >who does not fear assassination. If all potential successors are convinced >that the rubout can be repeated, they won't go for the job. Remember, the >purpose of "terrorism" is not just to kill someone, but to "terrorize". > >> And what will be done about all those people who made this "power" >> possible? You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have >> to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him. > >You rub out enough key people and terrorize their potential successors >into not wanting to take over their jobs, and the system collapses. ... I don't remember where I heard this, and in all likelyhood, I heard it here. This is certainly not a direct quote, ant would the origional poster please speak up. There came a time, in some ancient civilization when the king committed suicide by eating poisoned food. In the remaining week, most of the household, apparently in honor of the deceased king, jumped on kitchen knives and butcher knives, killing themselves. The brother of the king would not come out of hiding because some unknown person was terrorizing him with a meat cleaver. After a year, it was apparent that no one in the line of succession still survived, all killing themselves with kitchen utensils. It was rumored that the post was cursed. It was then that the royal galley slave bravely stepped foreward to rule the kingdom until one of the origional line should return. The decendants of the galley slave have ruled to this day. Like I said, I don't know where this came from, but I would like to see it again, if it came from here.

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Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will > > have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be > > permenant, it is a form of online ethnic cleansing whereby the lists > > clique of illuminati have taken it upon themselves to remove the > > elements of the list they feel endanger their position of superiority > > and respect, the point they have missed is that they have no > > credibility whatsoever after this incident, as well as a number of > > other such occurances and therefore are only isolating themselves > > into their own little world. > > The Big Lie once again. yadda yadda yadda "Censorship!" yadda yadda > yadda "No Credibility" yadda yadda yadda ad nauseum. Blah Blah "Free speech advocates", Blah Blah "Foaming at the mouth anarchists".... > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship" > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship" "Fascists will reply to posts with weak arguments" Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > ...That was the intended direction of the list, it > > has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list > > where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly > > always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen. > > Again, nonsense. The moderation experiment (moderation, not > censorship) has been in effect for all of ONE WEEK. Where does > Paul get this hysterical "recent months" stuff? The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. There have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new members of the list". > > If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following: > > > > Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was > > to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and > > related issues... > > Paul's argument is the essence of literal conservativism, "but > I don't things to change!" Without change, though, there can be > no progress. Moderation is a one-month experiment. There is no > intellectual dishonesty in saying, "let's try something else for > a while." So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private list.... > > Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based > > censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present > > class structure,... > > "Unspoken but ever present class structure"? I wonder how Paul > was able to divine this? Certainly it is unspoken, but that, of > course, it because it does not exist anywhere but in Paul's > fertile imagination. There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain members postings are censored when their content is of a standard that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, would warrant their being sent to the censored list. If anyone here archives all of the list postings or is willing to retrieve them from the archive we can run some statistical tests and comparisons in a few weeks once the sample is large enough, however, the list oberfuhrer and leutenant von Sandfort will claim the statistical correlation between poster reputation among the upper class of list members and the number of their posts let onto the moderated list is caused by persistent flamers so this will not convince them.. > > It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will > > have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be > > permenant,... > > Great! I thought that hadn't been determined yet. What a > relief. I think you`ll find your poor attempt at making light of the situation does little to hide the fact that this censorship has finally confirmed that this is a private list and is no longer meant to be a free, anarchic discussion forum. I can tell you one other thing for sure, even if the moderation "experiment" were to end in a month as a last ditch attempt by John Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort to recover some of their lost credibility it would be a vain and entirely unsuccesful attempt. Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Sovreign Right of Lawful Access
by Somebody 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as something that goverments were determined to preserve.

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.hlp creation
by Neil Rogers 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Howdi all, how are you, Can someone please help me, Can someone create a Windows 3.1 .hlp file fro me, when opened has a link to FILE MANAGER - U:\W31\winfile.exe Please, I have tried but can't do one, I would be really gratefull if someone could help! Thanks in advance, Neil ..............

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Where's reference? (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7)
by Mullen, Patrick 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>>---------- >>From: Phil Karn[SMTP:karn@qualcomm.com] >>>If past cryptographic software is any indication, the DES Cracker >>>will be available from an overseas ftp site within hours of release in >>>the US. >> >>And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and >>physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by >>the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the >>overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-) >> >>Phil > Where can I get a reference to this? I thought you weren't supposed to transmit cryptographic code out of the U.S. under any means, including print... >(???) > >~ Patrick >

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Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph > > of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, > > the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum > > for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make > > a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was Maybe this was misleading, that was indeed a purpose of the list but it was also supposed to be a free and anarchic list where people were not prevented from posting whatever they want. Even if it were the case that we accepted content based censorship that is no defence of the obvious class system that is in place whereby certain posters are automatically sent straight to the moderated list and others are censored regardless of the content of their posts. Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

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Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list
by paul＠fatmans.demon.co.uk 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

> > ...That was the intended direction of the list, it > > has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list > > where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly > > always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen. > > Again, nonsense. The moderation experiment (moderation, not > censorship) has been in effect for all of ONE WEEK. Where does > Paul get this hysterical "recent months" stuff? The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. There have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new members of the list". > > If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following: > > > > Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was > > to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and > > related issues... > > Paul's argument is the essence of literal conservativism, "but > I don't things to change!" Without change, though, there can be > no progress. Moderation is a one-month experiment. There is no > intellectual dishonesty in saying, "let's try something else for > a while." So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private list.... > > Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based > > censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present > > class structure,... > > "Unspoken but ever present class structure"? I wonder how Paul > was able to divine this? Certainly it is unspoken, but that, of > course, it because it does not exist anywhere but in Paul's > fertile imagination. There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain members postings are censored when their content is of a standard that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, would warrant their being sent to the censored list. If anyone here archives all of the list postings or is willing to retrieve them from the archive we can run some statistical tests and comparisons in a few weeks once the sample is large enough, however, the list oberfuhrer and leutenant von Sandfort will claim the statistical correlation between poster reputation among the upper class of list members and the number of their posts let onto the moderated list is caused by persistent flamers so this will not convince them.. > > It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will > > have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be > > permenant,... > > Great! I thought that hadn't been determined yet. What a > relief. I think you`ll find your poor attempt at making light of the situation does little to hide the fact that this censorship has finally confirmed that this is a private list and is no longer meant to be a free, anarchic discussion forum. I can tell you one other thing for sure, even if the moderation "experiment" were to end in a month as a last ditch attempt by John Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort to recover some of their lost credibility it would be a vain and entirely unsuccesful attempt. Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul(a)fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul(a)crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul(a)cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

2 1

RE: Fighting the cybercensor
by Sean Roach 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

At 08:00 PM 1/27/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >blanc <blancw(a)cnw.com> writes: ... >> 2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this >> themselves? > >Perhaps because they love Saddam, who really is a great guy. Stop listening >to what U.S.gubmint and media tell you and use your brain. What did >Saddam do to _you? Those of us in the US have the luxery of secret ballots, Iraq is not. What was reported to me (by the media) was that those who decided to vote against Hussein, in a time when food was scarce, decided to vote against eating. It was not made illegal to vote him out, merely a catch 22, unless enough people agreed openly, the vocal minority would suffer. What we should have been doing as the troops pulled out and a no fly zone was being established was dropping bombs full of bread on the populus. Then they could have voted any which way they chose. ... >> Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because >> they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and >> 2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it. You might be >> able to kill off one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting >> in the wings to take his place. The situation surrounding the existence >> of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him >> there, not simply that one man himself. It was the same with Hitler and >> with so many others - they don't just have an excess of "power" >> concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over >> others - there will have been many people who will have helped put them >> there, expecting to derive benefits from it. > >I don't like your Saddam example, having much admiration for the man, but >again this goes back to the perceived likelihood of future assassination. >If Saddam is killed in an unlikely event, he will be succeeded by someone >who does not fear assassination. If all potential successors are convinced >that the rubout can be repeated, they won't go for the job. Remember, the >purpose of "terrorism" is not just to kill someone, but to "terrorize". > >> And what will be done about all those people who made this "power" >> possible? You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have >> to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him. > >You rub out enough key people and terrorize their potential successors >into not wanting to take over their jobs, and the system collapses. ... I don't remember where I heard this, and in all likelyhood, I heard it here. This is certainly not a direct quote, ant would the origional poster please speak up. There came a time, in some ancient civilization when the king committed suicide by eating poisoned food. In the remaining week, most of the household, apparently in honor of the deceased king, jumped on kitchen knives and butcher knives, killing themselves. The brother of the king would not come out of hiding because some unknown person was terrorizing him with a meat cleaver. After a year, it was apparent that no one in the line of succession still survived, all killing themselves with kitchen utensils. It was rumored that the post was cursed. It was then that the royal galley slave bravely stepped foreward to rule the kingdom until one of the origional line should return. The decendants of the galley slave have ruled to this day. Like I said, I don't know where this came from, but I would like to see it again, if it came from here.

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RE: Fighting the cybercensor
by Phillip M. Hallam-Baker 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>That's it? The system collapsed because the guards left their posts? >And no mutiny charges? Incredible. I was there. The collapse of East Germany was quite spectacular. There was at most three months of warning. First there was a series of sit ins at foreign embassies, then a migration of large numbers of people in their twenties within the eastern block. I missed the actual collapse of the wall itself having to go to England. I was told of the sequence of events by friends in Berlin. By this time the protestors were confident enough to stage open demonstrations. The authorities had tolerated small scale demonstrations for some time provided they did not appear to be part of a larger movement. The sudden increase in numbers from tens to tens of thousands left the authorities unsure of what to do. They could not be sure of the reliability of the police should they attempt to violently suppress the demonstrations. To imprison the ringleaders was equally dangerous. The communists were aware that the South Africans had continued to be troubled by Mandela and Biko long after they were imprisoned or murdered. At some point a group of protesters approached the wall, probably hoping to goad the police into making an arrest. The guards made no response and the numbers increased to the point where firing of warning shots was impossible without causing a massacre. West German protesters joined from the other side of the wall. The border guards did try to use a water cannon but to little effect since the range was insufficient. At some point someone appeared with a sledge hammer and a pickaxe. Some people say that this was at the start of the protest, others that someone fetched them. I have heard people who believe that they were brought from either side of the wall. They started attacking the wall and soon had removed one of the panels. Next day the border guards quite literally abandoned their posts. The Brandenburg gate was opened for the first time in fifty years and the party apparatus all but collapsed. The only military activity during this period was GDR forces preparing against possible invasion by Soviet forces. Not that this was a logistical possibility since it was unlikely they would get across Poland unopposed. Read Norman Davies book "Europe a history" if you want to find out the background for the velvet revolution. It is one of the most amazing events in political history. It is a pity that people have forgotten so quickly about the real causes. It was not military power that prevailed but the protest movement. Unfortunately US commentators tend to see everything in terms of US cultural norms, many of which were explicitly rejected by the protestors. The East Germans wanted West German affluence, they wanted to be part of Western Europe. They were certainly not responding to US military spending as right wing theorists claim, nor was the economy collapsing because of the arms race, it was collapsing because of the costs of a totalitarian state and the incompatibility of that state with modern industrial organization. Phill

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Re: Handbook of Applied Cryptography
by John Young 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Here's the publisher's URL for Handbook of Applied Cryptography, which amplifies Patrick's summary, and gives ordering info. http://www.crcpress.com/PRODS/8523.HTM Just reading the mouthwatering summaries and the extensive, detailed list of topics is a good primer on crypto.

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Re: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7
by Phil Karn 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

>If past cryptographic software is any indication, the DES Cracker >will be available from an overseas ftp site within hours of release in >the US. And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-) Phil

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Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" <hallam(a)ai.mit.edu> > Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) > Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:36:13 -0500 > > I don't agree with your view of states. The inhabitants of a > geographical area are not mere chattels of the governing power. Exactly! By jove you got it! By demanding your liberty but demanding that 'we' go to Singapore or anywhere else and treat them as chattels we have clearly instituted a double-standard. Most parties in this discussion still haven't made that distinction. All we have done is replace their current tyrant with a new one, mainly us. > The right to rule rests on certain criteria which I believe neither > country meets. The harassment of opposition politicians in > obviously trumped up charges disqualifies any country from > calling itself a democracy. Exactly. And by applying pressure on Singapore we only help them keep that tyrany in place. The quickest way I know to make a social institution band together is self-preservation from an outside threat, real or perceived. > I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into > the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool > for confirming the present social order which is manifestly > corrupt. ALL social orders are corrupt. The 3 laws of thermodynamics apply to everything including social institutions. 1. You can't get ahead 2. You can't break even 3. You can't quit the game Heinz Pagels (RIP) Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy (fwd)
by Jim Choate 17 Dec '03

17 Dec '03

Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 01:28:19 -0800 > From: Greg Broiles <gbroiles(a)netbox.com> > Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy > > Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where > the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension > substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought. Thank you for agreeing with my thesis that the legal industry is one driven by monetary gain and not justice. It is the one major problem with law today, it ignores those who are not 'worth it'. Justice is supposed to be blind and until that happens there can be no true liberty. Law should be involved in rights and wrongs and not 'how much money do I need to buy that villa in Spain'. There is also the aspect of 'reputation' of the organization which was defamed. This will become even more critical to good business over the Internet in the future than it is now. Now the only really important 'reputation' that one has to worry about is their credit report. Since it is very unlikely that such records will be made public in the future they won't be available so some other 'reputation' verification process will be required for parties interested in doing business with other parties they have no information on other than an email address or a webpage. This problem became very clear during the Austin Cypherpunks remailer project last year. The goal was to create a economicaly viable keyserver. The problem rapidly became one of trust and reputation and there was and still is no clear cut methodology for dealing with these concepts, let alone actualy trying to quantify them. Another aspect of this that keeps coming up is one of 'big' corporations with 'lots' of money, this monotonicity in legal thought is the reason I refer to the 'legal industry' and not 'legal profession'. Currently the main force driving law is how much money is available. Expansions of liberty simply can't happen in this environment because there is no mechanism to protect 'little' organizations or persons without 'lots' of cash. This problem is one that is not being addressed by anyone, most especialy lawyers who will loose income which they aren't apt to do voluntarily. > Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still > unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access > to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts. This would be hard to do in the situation such as a mailing list because the parties would have 'authorized access' and it does not include the issue of inside parties nor 'web bbs's' where parties can enter comments and other statements in a 'authorized' manner. There are mechanisms to use computers for abuse of other parties besides hacking. > Confusion > aids defendants, so I predict prosecutors will avoid defamation law (and > its tar pits of actual malice and the defense of truth) when they are able > to do so and still have a reasonable chance of conviction. > > >If they don't > >understand the technology (eg forwarding private email to publicly > >accessible lists by accident) how in the world are they going to understand > >what is best, let along convince anyone else? > > There's a world of difference between understanding technology and screwing > up once in awhile. Absolutely. However, if there is not a fundamental understanding of the technology and its ramifications I certainly wouldn't want somebody making a case on my behalf because they would make assumptions which were not based in fact. In Toto's case the point I was refering to was not his sending private practice related material to a publicly accessible list (pretty reprehensible for my attorney accident or not) but rather his unsolicited admission that he didn't have any idea how it works. THAT would worry me if my liberty, possessions, or life were on the line. > I was that "party", and I guess that in trying to be civil I was actually > unclear. If you were a politically important person or organization, and if > Toto's message had caused you real damage, and if Toto were reasonably > available to prosecute, a prosecutor might get interested. But you're not > important, Toto would be difficult to extradite, and you weren't harmed. So > you picked a crappy example to make your point(s) with. Change the facts, > and you'll get a different answer. Duh. Actualy it is the PERFECT example of what is wrong with the law, it is the reason that I went to such extremes to force the situation. If the law can't protect Ma. and Pa. Kettle (their poor, being share croppers) under our 'democracy' it shure can't proctect them under a more 'liberalized' democracy which so many want and the technology will force. If the coming technocracy can't (or for monetary reasons won't) then it won't be any different that what we have now. A tyrant is a tyrant, my goal is to get rid of the cage and not to put a new layer of gilt on it. > You picked a hypothetical which did a poor job of illustrating the points > you're making in this later message. Do you want to talk about whether or > not Toto is criminally liable for making fun of you while making a point > about ownership of networks and its relationship to freedom of speech, or > do you want to talk about the more general case of liability for > misattribution? If it's the latter, yes, there are some issues there, but I > still think that defamation law is a poor way to address them. You seem to > be having an "I've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. The point is not whether Toto did or did not make fun of me, you seem to have a prediliction for personal attacks. It ain't. The point is that if joe-six-pack isn't secure in knowing that his views and expression are not protected from abuse he won't use it. We all loose in that case. > And all of this seems a bit contrived if the real crypto-relevant point is > "use digital signatures to avoid misattribution". You missed the point, keep pondering. I am shure it will come to you. > Despite your closing, I haven't seen you write anything about "how it > should be", Because I don't know how it should be, and it isn't my place or yours to make that decision. It is our responsibility to discuss this issue and to review the various solutions and what they will mean in the long run (as near as we can make the future out that is). In this example, if party A makes a statement and then B changes it and then re-distributes it as original comments by A then there is a problem irrespective of the monetary worth of A or B. Digital signatures in and of themselves won't help this from happening unless it is required to include the full text and signature of any quote in any subsequent use of that material otherwise the quote and the digital signature are out of sync and therefore worthless. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage(a)ssz.com

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