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THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
_____________________________________________________________________
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE November 17, 2003
INTERVIEW OF THE PRESIDENT
BY
TREVOR KAVANAGH OF "THE SUN"
The Oval Office
November 14, 2003
9:31 A.M. EST
THE PRESIDENT: Have you ever been in the Oval Office before?
Q Once, just once --
THE PRESIDENT: Okay. The rug was designed by my wife. Every President
gets to design his own rug. You probably didn't know that.
Q Fabulous.
THE PRESIDENT: I wanted mine -- mine was designed by my wife, Laura. And
I wanted people to have a sense of optimism when they came in here, that this
is a guy who kind of sees a better world, not a worse world. Sometimes the Oval
can be foreboding, and I wanted it to be cheery. So I hope you felt that.
This is called, "A Charge To Keep," it's based upon a Methodist hymn. One
of America's great imports from England was John Wesley. And it talks about
serving something greater than yourself, which speaks to my own personal faith;
as a President, it speaks to my need to capture the spirit of America and call
on people to serve. You've probably followed some of my domestic policy, but
one of the things that's important is to call on people to serve their
communities by helping neighbors who hurt. The de Tocquevillean view of
America at that point was just, kind of, a civic fabric of loving organizations;
part of my vision, as well, is to energize them.
The paintings of Texas. That's kind of what my ranch looks like, by a guy
named Onderdonk, he's a Texas landscape artist. The blue bonnets are not quite
that big. Blair and I -- well, he's been there, and he would recognize kind of
the look, if he were here. This is West Texas, where my wife's family was
raised. We were both raised in West Texas, but this is farther west than where
I was raised. It's called El Paso. But it's a famous Texas artist and
historian who painted that.
More Texas. The reason I have Texas up there is it's where I'm from. And
in this job if you can't figure out who you are -- you better know who you are
because of the pressures and the decision making process and all the noise of
politics and all that (inaudible).
Really quickly, this is a desk given to us by Queen Victoria. A famous
desk called the HMS Resolute, and it's wood from the Resolute. The door was put
on by Roosevelt to cover his infirmities. Out of the door poked John Kennedy's
son --
Q Oh, yes, I remember.
THE PRESIDENT: I chose to use this -- Ronald Reagan put the bottom on to
make the desk high so it won't bump your knees. I love the desk. I love its
history. It does speak to the great relationship between America and Great
Britain, I'm sitting at a desk given to our country by Queen Victoria.
And, finally, the Churchill bust is on loan from the Brits. Tony Blair
knew I was a great admirer of Churchill, so here he sits, along with Lincoln and
Eisenhower.
That's it, welcome.
Q Fantastic. Thank you very much, Mr. President. Where would you like
me?
THE PRESIDENT: Sit right here, take Vice President Cheney's seat.
Q I'm more than a little impressed by being here and by sitting in this
seat.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you know, this is a shrine to democracy and we treat
it as such. And it's an honor to serve here.
Q Well, I would like to thank you on behalf of our readers for giving
them and me the time to talk to you.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I'm glad you're here, thanks.
Q We're a very pro-American newspaper, and our readers were shocked and
deeply moved by September the 11th. And they supported what happened
subsequently in Afghanistan, and a little more reluctantly in Iraq, but, in
fact, the majority of our readers were behind the action.
I think what they would like to know -- we've talked with them in a way
which is quite interesting, we actually spent a weekend with about 2,000 of our
readers.
THE PRESIDENT: Really? (Laughter.) Good marketing tool. (Laughter.)
That's interesting.
Q Yes. And the one question they wanted to ask you is, is the world a
safer place after the conflict than it was before?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, much safer. It's safer for a couple of reasons. One,
the free world has recognized the threat. In order to make the world safe
you've got to actually see reality. And the reality is that there are
cold-blooded killers who were trying to intimidate, create fear, create
hostility and to shape the will of the civilized world.
And a lot of countries have seen the threat for what it is. So, therefore,
step one is recognizing the problem. Tony Blair recognizes the problem, Jose
Maria Aznar recognizes the problem, Silvio Berlusconi recognizes the problem --
clearly, the United States recognizes the problem, after all, the clearest
indication that we were at war and that the stakes had changed dramatically was
September the 11th. After all, we were a country which was able to sit back in
our -- kind of in our geographical posture and pick and choose where a threat
might emerge and say, we may have to deal with that or we may not deal with it;
we were pretty confident that we were protected ourselves by oceans. That
changed.
And one of my vows to the American people is I won't forget the lessons of
September the 11th, 2001.
Secondly, the world is safer because the actions we have taken will
ultimately strengthen multi-national institutions. Take the theater in Iraq.
The United Nations had recognized that Saddam Hussein was a threat, they
recognized it in not one resolution, but multiple resolutions -- and, yet,
didn't do anything about it. And, therefore, the resolutions became weak,
became just words.
And as a result of enforcing 1441, which said that you disarm or there will
be serious consequences, now when multi-national institutions speak, hopefully,
people will take them seriously. And in order to win the war on terror, there
needs to be alliance and cooperation. Because these are killers that are
capable of hiding in societies, they're patient, they're lethal, they pop up and
will destroy. And, by the way, they don't care who they destroy. There are no
rules for these people, they will kill children just as soon as they'll kill
somebody in a military uniform.
Thirdly, the world is safer because there is a -- and, by the way,
multi-national forum doesn't necessarily mean U.N. It can also mean
collaborations, like the collaboration that's now taking place with North Korea
in dealing with Kim Jong-il, who is a threat to peace. And now it's not just
the United States dealing with Kim Jong-il, it's the United States, China, South
Korea, Japan and Russia in a collaborative effort. Or the fine work -- the
initial fine work done by the foreign ministers of Great Britain, France and
Germany in telling Iran to get rid of its nuclear ambitions. I say "initial
fine work" because the Iranians, in the past, have had clandestine operations.
And, therefore, in order to make sure that the words that have been issued to
them are true, there must be transparency.
Fourthly, we dealt al Qaeda. We are tough on al Qaeda. Now, you know,
there are key figures still looming in caves and remote regions of the world,
but we're dismantling them. If you were to look at al Qaeda as a business
organization, middle management is no longer. That's not to say that they're
not grooming junior executives to take over certain roles. But we're tough and
we're on their trail and we're still hunting them down. Make no mistake about
it. And as a result of dismantling al Qaeda, the world is safer.
We've also dealt with the tyrants in Afghanistan, which is an incredibly
dangerous regime -- dangerous not only to the free world because they provided
housing, training, money, safe haven -- but also they were just tortuous and
barbaric to their own people. And in Iraq, Saddam Hussein was clearly a threat
to peace. And we can argue about the definition of "serious consequence," and I
respect the debate, but no one can justify this man's behavior to his people.
We've discovered mass graves with over 300,000 people there, rape rooms and
torture rooms. He is paying suiciders to go kill innocent Israelis. He had a
weapons program as discovered -- I promise you this is going to be a short
answer, eventually; I saw you looking at the clock, your glance can't escape me.
(Laughter.)
This is an important question. It is the question.
Q Of course, absolutely.
THE PRESIDENT: David Kay discovered a weapons program that was in material
breach of 1441. In other words, it was in violation of precisely what the
United Nations had asked him not to do. Saddam Hussein, in 1991, it was assumed
that he -- his nuclear weapons program would be active in the out years and, in
fact, the inspectors discovered he's got nuclear ambitions, not only real and
active, but his program was a lot farther along than we thought. And had he
ever developed a nuclear weapon, had he been allowed to have a nuclear weapon,
he would have been the ultimate source of international blackmail.
And so the removal of Saddam Hussein makes the world safer. And, as
importantly, the removal of Saddam Hussein gives the Iraqis a chance to live in
freedom, which is the ultimate -- freedom is the ultimate route to security. I
strongly believe that free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations are not
terrorist havens, do not become terrorist havens. Free nations won't create
conditions of strife and resentment that breeds anxiety and terror.
And, therefore, the world is becoming safer, is safer and will be even more
safe when Iraq becomes free. And Iraq will be free, and it'll be peaceful. And
we need peace and freedom in that part of the world.
Now, there's an interesting debate going on as to whether or not people,
like the Iraqis, will ever adapt the habits of freedom. There's kind of an
elitism that takes place -- in our country, in your country and elsewhere,
feels, well, certain people can't be free, they can't adapt the habits of
democracy. I strongly disagree. I strongly disagree.
And so, yes, the world is safer and the world is more peaceful.
Q Okay. That answer will resonate with our readers. Nonetheless, there
is concern about the events, particularly in the last week or so, when things
have escalated. I think this causes concern everywhere. Are we going to
increase military presence there? Are we going to pull out? There's a fear
that --
THE PRESIDENT: You don't have to worry about us pulling out.
Q There's a famous t-shirt, slogan, which shows the American flag and
the words, "these colors don't run." Do you stand by that?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Our will is being tested.
See, the tactics of the terrorists is to kill as many innocent people as
possible and, therefore, try to shape the will of the Iraqis. As progress is
made -- and we're making interesting progress, and I'll cite some examples in a
minute that I think are fascinating. But as the Iraqis begin to say, wait a
minute, life can be better, and their instincts kick in about what it means to
live in a free society, the terrorists want to shake that. They want to scare
them. They want the police not to become police. And we've got over 118,000
people now, Iraqi citizens in uniform beginning to conduct operations for their
own security.
They, of course, want to kill our own soldiers, and, therefore, try to
shake the will of the American people and the President and the command
structure. They killed those Italians. And they were hoping that Berlusconi
would say, oh, my goodness, this is too big a fight, we'll leave. We're not
leaving. We're staying there to get the job done. Of course we mourn the death
of any citizen. But I recognize that it is -- I still remember the death, what
happened to us on September the 11th, as well. I was there at Ground Zero right
after the attacks and I remember this kind of haze and the smells and the death
and destruction. I'll always remember that, of course.
And, as I've told you, I vowed not to forget the lessons.
Q That changed everything?
THE PRESIDENT: Absolutely. Look, what changed for me was sitting on Air
Force One and getting the reports that we were under attack. And I made up my
mind then, right then, that we didn't need a bunch of legal briefs, I didn't
need a bunch of -- you know, let's kind of hold hands and hope to get the right
answer -- we were at war and we were going to win the war. And I still feel
that same exact determination today that I did then.
Q So you'll stay in Iraq even --
THE PRESIDENT: We will do our job.
Q -- after there's an interim council, a government which is --
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. There's a lot of talk right now about the political
process, as there should be. And we are interested in the Iraqis assuming more
responsibility on the political side and on the security side. And a political
process in which the Iraqis assume more responsibility will make the security
side come together quicker, as well, in our judgment.
And, therefore, Bremer came here, he took instructions back from me to talk
to the Governing Council to find out what is feasible when it comes to the
passing of more power to the Governing Council. That's where we are right
there.
On the security side, absolutely we're there. The goal is for Iraq to be
peaceful and free. I understand the consequences of a free and peaceful Iraq in
the midst of the Middle East. We can have the debate all day long as to whether
the Middle East will ever adapt the habits of democracy and freedom. I think
they will, obviously; and I'm confident they will. I like to tell people in
this country, freedom is not America's gift to the world, freedom is not Great
Britain's gift to the world, Freedom is the Almighty's gift to everybody in the
world.
Q And this is what you'll tell the demonstrators? Or this is what you
would tell the demonstrators if you had five minutes with them?
THE PRESIDENT: Of course I would, absolutely. I will say, you may
disagree with our tactics -- nobody likes war, war is my last choice -- if the
demonstrators are there as anti-war protestors; they may be there for other
reasons, as well, global trade, and I'd be glad to talk to them about that, as
well. But in terms of war, I can understand why people are anxious about war.
I can understand why citizens in Great Britain, protestor or not, wonders about
why a President would commit to war. Because nobody likes war.
On the other hand, I would tell them, the skeptics and the critics, that I
have a job to protect the security of the United States of America, and that
Saddam Hussein was a security risk, as witnessed by the international community
speaking loudly on that subject 12 different times. But I would tell those who
doubt our policy that we share a common goal, which is peace, and that free
societies are peaceful societies. They may say, well, you can't possibly expect
a country like Iraq to be free -- and then we'd have an interesting,
philosophical debate, because I believe freedom exists in the heart of every
single human being. It may take longer for people to accept freedom, if they've
been tortured and brutalized like Saddam Hussein did.
Secondly, I would tell the skeptics that not only is the world more secure
as a result of the decisions we made, the Iraqi people now have a chance to live
in a society which is hopeful and optimistic, a society in which you're able to
speak your mind, a society in which you don't have to pay homage to a brutal
tyrant and his two brutal sons -- which is precisely how they had to live in the
past.
Q So how do you respond to those people who were polled by the Europe
commission and found that America was alongside Iran, North Korea is the second
most powerful threat to world peace?
THE PRESIDENT: You just have to tell them watch what happens. The world
is going to be more peaceful and the free world will be more secure as a result
of the decisions we've taken.
Q Can I ask you about the special relationship, the role the British
soldiers play in Iraq and are still playing?
THE PRESIDENT: Sure.
Q Would you like to tell me about you feel about our contribution?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I'll tell you about your troops. They are well
trained, they are well motivated and they're really good at what they do. And
our soldiers and our generals and our commanders really appreciate being
side-by-side with the Brits. They trust them, and that's important.
Secondly, in Basra, the Brits have brought an interesting strategy in
dealing in Basra because you have dealt in Northern Ireland. In other words, it
was kind of a transfer of experience that has been incredibly useful and
important. I am really proud of our -- not only our alliance, because it's
close now and I intend to keep it that way. I've got a great personal
relationship with Tony Blair.
Let me tell you something about him just real quick, because it relates
also to the trust of the troops. He's a man who comes in here and he says he's
going to do something, and as I said -- as they say in Texas, you can book him
when he says he's going to do something, you can take it to the bank. Because
every time he has said something, he has done it, and I appreciate that a lot.
It's not always the way it is in politics -- whether it be domestic or
international politics. Sometimes they'll come and look you in the eye and say,
"Oh, don't worry, Mr. President, we're with you and behind you," and it turns
out they're way behind you, you can't find them when the heat gets on. But
that's not the way Tony Blair is, and that's not the way the Brits' command
structure is, and that's not the way the soldiers in the field have been.
They've been tough and capable.
And decent people. That's the other thing about militaries, both our
militaries are full of compassionate people. Because not only are we chasing
down people and bringing them to justice, as we say, but there are schools being
built, orphanages being opened, hospitals being supplied, thanks to
compassionate British troops, and American troops, as well, and other troops.
It speaks to the honor of our respective militaries, these are honorable people.
Q You're going to speak to some of the families of those who have
already died in Iraq, and also September the 11th.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
Q You're going to see them, I guess, on Downing Street.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I'm not sure exactly where, but, you bet, I am going
to see them.
Q What are you going to say to them?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I'm going to first of all ask for God's blessings,
because I understand how bad they hurt. I can't imagine what it would be like
if I were a mother or a dad to have lost a child. I'm a proud dad, it's got to
shatter a person's heart to lose a loved one. And I will do the best I can to
provide some comfort. I have done this here in America, as well. It's part of
my duty as the leader of this country to comfort those who have sacrificed.
I'll also explain to them as best as I can that the sacrifices that their
loved one has made is for a noble cause, and that's peace and freedom. I
strongly believe that what we're doing today will make it easier for this
person's grandchild to grow up in a free world and a peaceful world.
I'll tell you an interesting story, kind of dawned on me a while ago. I
was talking to Prime Minister Koizumi of Japan in Tokyo -- we were having
dinner, actually. And I kind of reflected on what it would be like -- during
our dinner, I reflected on what it would be like if America and the allies
hadn't done a good job in post-World War II, would I be sitting with a Prime
Minister of Japan, with whom I've got great relations, talking about how to deal
with Kim Jong-il and North Korea? It's an interesting thought.
Q Very interesting.
THE PRESIDENT: Beyond that is whether or not somebody 50 years from now is
going to be sitting with a leader from Iraq, or any other country in that
region, saying, "Thank goodness George W. and Tony Blair held the line, because
I'm now able to deal with terrorist threats or potential terrorist threats with
an ally; I'm able to help bring more peace to the world."
Presidents and Prime Ministers should never worry about their short-term
history, how they're viewed in short-term history. There's no such thing as
short-term history, except for the musings of somebody who's not very objective
to begin with. Because if you set big goals and work on big items, the
President or the Prime Minister won't be around to see the effects of those
policies. And, therefore, I don't worry about the short-term history. I think
in terms of long-term history I know what we're doing now is going to have an
effect, a positive effect on this world.
Q Can I just backtrack a little?
THE PRESIDENT: Sure.
Q You were talking earlier about the contributions countries like
Britain and Italy have made and others.
THE PRESIDENT: Spain, Poland, a lot of people.
Q You didn't mention France and Germany in that -- you seem very
critical of France.
THE PRESIDENT: Look, my attitude is the past is there, it's past, and now
let's go on. I'll tell you one example of why that attitude is important, and
that is Germany's contribution in Afghanistan. And it's a positive contribution
-- more than positive, it's incredibly helpful. They've got a number of troops
there. It's the first deployment of German troops, as I understand, outside of
their soil since World War II. It's a positive -- yes, I think that's right,
check the facts. But, anyway, it's helpful, really helpful.
Q And NATO?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, NATO is important.
Q But France is a semi-detached member of NATO --
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it's a historic role --
Q They won't be a rival --
THE PRESIDENT: I certainly hope not. See, there's no need to rival the
United States and our friends. Our goals are peace.
Q But France wants to counter.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean multi-polarity? Well, I think we need to work
against multi-polarity, and the reason why I know we need to work against
multi-polarity is a Europe working with American can do a lot together. A
united Europe working with America can do a lot together. We can promote peace.
We can fight off terror, which is necessary, and there needs to be full
cooperation in order to defeat the terrorists. We can work on issues like
global AIDS.
I'm real proud of our country's contribution to global AIDS. Just to give
you a sense of my feeling on this, we are a fortunate country. We're prosperous
-- and by the way, we're becoming more prosperous, which is good news.
Q I'd like to ask you about that.
THE PRESIDENT: Okay. But I believe we owe a lot to the world's peace and
we owe a lot to those who suffer, because of our fortune, because of our wealth.
I'm proud of the fact that Congress has supported my initiative to provide a
large sum of money. And, as importantly, I'm proud of our NGOs and faith-based
organizations that are willing to help provide the infrastructure so that we can
get help to beat this pandemic. We're a prosperous country, and yet in our
world an entire generation is about to be wiped out. And I feel strongly about
America's need to be involved and Europe's need to be involved in this issue,
together, just like I feel strongly we need to provide food for the hungry, just
like I feel strongly that when we see tyranny, that we need to work for freedom.
Every situation, of course, doesn't require military action. I just repeat
-- I want your readers to know, the military is my last choice, not my first
choice. See, I understand the consequences of war. I understand the risks of
war. I understand firsthand, particularly when I go and hug the moms and dads
and brothers and sisters and sons and daughters of those who died.
I also see the consequences of not acting, of hoping for the best in the
face of these tyrannical killers. So, therefore, our foreign policy will be
active, we'll work closely with our friends and allies, and we're going to stay
on the offensive against the terrorists.
Q Let me just ask you one quick question on the economy.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
Q It's going great guns. You're revising figures upwards. You
introduced tax cuts. You promised tax cuts, you introduced them. Is this a
message to the rest of the world, too?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think people ought to look at pro-growth policies
and how to stimulate the entrepreneurial spirit. To me, one of the unique
qualities of our country is the individualism of our country and the willingness
of people to take risks to better themselves. Most new jobs in America are
created by small businesses, and that's an exciting aspect of our economy,
because it not only is good economics to have the job hiring dispersed
throughout society, it also is such a hopeful part of our economy. When you
think about somebody in America can start their own business and grow it, and
then actually own something. They become the owner of this piece of property.
Our tax policy was very effective at stimulating small business growth,
because most small businesses pay tax at the individual income tax level. When
you hear small business or small corporation, you think, corporate tax. But in
America most small businesses are sole proprietorships or Subchapter S's, so
that when we cut all rates -- not trying to select rate cuts, but all rates --
it really affected capital formation in the small business.
This economy, and this country, more importantly, is tough and resilient.
We've been through a lot. When I showed up here, we were in recession. I guess
we were headed into recession. But the first -- I show up -- Dick Cheney and I
are here, we get sworn in, in late January, and the first quarter of '01 is
recession, or the beginnings of a recession. And then the attacks hurt us, and
we had corporate scandals. But I think the world is beginning to see America
will deal with corporate scandals in a tough way. It doesn't matter whether
you're -- we will hold people to account. I believe, in criminal matters, that
there has to be consequences for bad behavior, and clear consequences, and
that's how you deter bad behavior. And our SEC and our prosecutors are moving
quickly.
The war affected people. But we're overcoming that. It's not only good
tax policy, but we've got to work on making sure Congress doesn't overspend, and
that's tough. But I'm holding the line. We've done pretty good on our budget
agreements, so far. We need better legal policy. I've been pushing tort reform
at the national level on class action suits. All of which make it easier for
people to kind of calculate risk when it comes to employing capital, which is
the essence of promoting the entrepreneurial spirit.
Trade is a very important element. I'll be dealing -- real quickly -- I'm
going to take a good look at the steel issue. The International Trade
Commission made a ruling. It said our industry was being harmed by imports. I
felt I had an obligation to take that report seriously, which I did. I imposed
tariffs to see whether or not, to give the -- breathing room for the industry to
restructure. I'm not analyzing the extent to which they restructured. Having
said that, I am a fierce free trader. I believe in free trade. I know free
trade is important between America and Great Britain. And I will continue to
resist any protectionist tendencies here. In order for us to be free traders,
however, we've got to enforce the rules of free trade. And I was doing so
through the International Trade Commission's report.
Sorry I cut you off.
Q Not at all.
THE PRESIDENT: First Lady Bush is standing out there. We're getting ready
to award the National Humanities Award here.
Q Many thanks.
THE PRESIDENT: See you over there.
END 10:02 A.M. EST
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