December 2001 - cypherpunks-legacy

Re: AP Al Qaeda
by mattd 13 Dec '01

13 Dec '01

>>you seem incapable of quoting in a legible manner. << Im learning on the job,bear with me,please. >>You should be aware that I'm not taking you seriously<< Thats a weight off. >>Ordinarily, I wouldn't feed the trolls, but I'm bored.<< Backatcha. >>Jim Bell was arrested for, charged with, and convicted of crossing US state lines with the intent to threaten a federal official, a felony in this country. Felony == crime. << Not assasination politics.He was investigating abuse's of power.Nowt to do with "assasination politics".Unless your a paranoid official. >>Carl Johnson was similarly convicted of threatening a federal official, still a felony in the US.<< Well CJ is here,lets ask him.The authorities seem dreadfully frightened of something laughable and impractical dreamed up by a circle of eunuchs; Thats where I come in.If the authorities don't like it.I just might.Im a libertarian socialist.(anarchist) >>Regardless of what you think of the laws involved, these two broke them according to the legal system under which they chose to operate, which is, by definition, crime.<< Yeah,so? Assasination politics is a crime? It must be like drugs and terror then.DECLARE WAR! >>Bully for you that you live (or claim to live) in Australia under a different legal system.<< I live in au,profess assasination politics openly.(operation soft drill) Would you mind e-mailing the victorian police and ask them to return the computer they stole from me over 6 months ago? Tell them how impractical and laughable it all is.Cops might take your laptop tomorrow.Dont come crying to me then.The police are bullies. >>The point here is that Bell, Johnson, and you have all made yourselves prime suspects if any public official (especially one in the US) is killed in a way that can be linked to assassination politics, << Oh,like that prosecuter in WA state just recently? I think CJ posted on that as I may have at melb indymedia.Suspects or subjects of surveillance and in CJs case low,vicious harassment.Shows how brittle and shitscared they might be,dontcha reckon,Gabe? The panopticon they will need to build will break their own back. >>and the still-rather-powerful executive branch of the US government is likely to come looking for you (and Bell and Johnson, if they're not incarcerated at that point) if someone should be, and likely to charge you with incitement to murder.<< Whats the charge? "Just give me my fucking phone call." FUCK the POLIZI. and all who sail in them."Id rather die on my feet than live on my knees" E.Zapata. libertarian socialist. >>. It doesn't matter whether or not this is Right (I'm willing to stipulate that it's Wrong), it is the reality of the situation.<< WoW! Shit like that can lead to revolutions! Lets Go! No such thing as bad publicity.Especially for a laughable,impractical scheme.The powers that be will be laughing stocks.Hilarious.Surreal.Im really scared. >>The crypto and electronic currency ideas used in assassination politics are kind of neat as a thought experiment<< How do you know that there isnt a 'napster for hitmen' or anti-choice warriors' or JDL cadres,already? No one can say there isnt for sure.Whats the nuremburg website all about? Doc-watch? Look around,AP is out there.Its especially 'neat' for ecash hungry crypto-anarchists.They seem to be being left behind for some reason.Will the last cypherpunk please turn out the lights? We do seem to need some new blood here as jim,CJ and I seem to be incompetents in yr eyes. >>but the execution (no pun intended) has, thus far, fallen extremely short. Unless you know something I don't and would care to share it.<< As far as I know,you are a P.I.Gs,(person/s impersonating govt servant/s) Also Ive only just unpacked my PGP. Ill probably give up OSD when the executions start.Like genet will only support palestinians till they get their own (police) state.Its the challenge of ushering in crypto-anarchy thats sucked me in.The essay is worth publicizing on its own...by any means necessary. >>My point is that knowing who was paid to kill someone is not the only way to find out that the assassin performed the assassination. The assassin can easily be (and often is) caught in the act. The assassin can fail (and, for bonus points, also be caught). There are plenty of examples of assassination attempts for which there is no monetary paper trail in which the assassin has been caught. (Let's see, in US history off the top of my head: John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, and John W. Hinckley Jr.)<< Thats a huge plus.How many incompetent assassins do you want running around.(did oswald act alone?) >>The issue of getting caught is totally orthogonal to the monetary paper trail; they intersect if a LEA uses the monetary paper trail to catch the assassin, but that's not the only way to catch him. Getting caught, though, must be a concern equal to, if not greater than, compensation to an assassin interested in getting paid for assassination (since he can't get paid if he gets caught or, at least, it won't do him much good in prison).<< I still like operation soft drill as its an 'open conspiracy" Skim the essay up to the last page (10) Everyone contributes pledges of 1$ at a bulletin board,anon if they prefer,payable (in installments if desired).No crypto required till payday. The money could go to next of kin,comrades, etc. If the assassin so desires,thus making a hit on oneself possible. Sandy sandfort might jump in at this point and scoff,but the other point is the mass civil disobedience aspect of bringing someone like condit,OJ or my own dennis to account.Empowering for all those who seek justice.The individual citizen decides who the baddies are and if they raise a few K,maybe the issue gets some media.Worth a shot.Not mob justice cos it takes time.It didnt take long for the USAma pot ,though, and someone said that he would be a hard on for AP a few weeks back,check archive 2-3 weeks. >>> (you just contradicted yrself btw.) How so? Well in the way you scoff at AP and salute it at the same time.You dont speak to OSD.either. >>No, no. AP is funny because it's impracticeable. On very preliminary results by a few publicists under enormous pressure.Its too early to write it off. >>Bell's theory does a really good job of sorting out the business end of assassination, No contradiction? I realize your critting the application of the application.All human endeavor will suffer from human failing and again its early days.Orville and wilbur didnt give up teaching mr ed to talk did they? >>I think you've watched Grosse Pointe Blank five too many times. I prefer scorcese and crimes and misdemeanors by woody allen.Also godfather and prizzi's honor.I do like john cusack.(and he likes the clash too!) He could play me in the AP movie though I look like mel gibson.The union of hitmen idea's quiet funny.Dan A,what a guy.Blues brothers,YEAH! Theres a movie.I saw grosse pointe once and have forgotten most of it,Im sorry I missed the recent TV series,sounded like a hoot.Not much time for movies/TV these days. >>How many seasoned professional killers do you really imagine are running around in the US these days? No, really, I want to know what you think.<< How many in the armed forces? Police force? Correctional wackenhutters?CIA.FBI.ATF.IRS. I dont know and I dont care.The more dead americans the better for the rest of the world.I dont want to live on Venus.FUCK AMERIKKKA! >>Hrm. That kind of counteracts the utility of Bell's system of remuneration for assassination, doesn't it? If the assassin would have done it for free (or, at least, cheap) and is willing to die trying, why would he bother with all the crypto flim-flam? << Indeed; See operation soft drill.Collapse of govts.Anarchy. >>Sure, maybe having a list of "recommended targets" would be helpful for all those civil-liberty-loving suicidal assassins out there just searching for a suitably morally devoid victim, but there's not much need for an organization to hold predictions in escrow then, now is there?<< You could be right.Operation soft drill is the 'let it all hang out'version of AP. The 'organization' is the (P-P) network,Its distributed and gets together for specific 'events'.No fixed abode.Crypto-anarchist nomads bring down the last empire.Could be a movie in it.Send us a script. >>> KILL THE PRESIDENT! "Id buy that for a dollar!"(Me) >>Really, I don't see what you've got against W. He's actually just a harmless twit, another Ronald Reagan. You really ought to be more interested in his cabinet, starting with (my former governor, who managed to lose an election to a dead man) Ashcroft. They're the real assholes. But you'd have a hard time knowing that considering you don't even live in the country whose public figures you're so interested in having assassinated.<< If you want to 'fork your own distro' on assfluff,Ill be the first to contribute 1 proffr dollar Your stooping low for a so called cypherpunk.Dont any of you listen to alpha baboon tim may? National borders are not even road humps on the infobahn? Remember? Dickhead, Im only interested soft drilling a few hundred of the richest people in the world and some 'public figures' that get in the way.Viva crypto-anarchy,VIVA! Theres only one question...who is to be master...thats all. >>Cheers mattd, apologies to the unamused on cypherpunks... Yeah,cheers yourself you hump.

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REMOVE ME NOW!!!!!
by The Silence Mailing List 13 Dec '01

13 Dec '01

--- info(a)appsales.net wrote: > (To be removed from our list, Please click on or > send an email to: remove(a)appsales.net. Please put > REMOVE as the subject. If you do not have REMOVE as > your subject you may be overlooked for removal) > > (JMP1128) THE CHANCE TO SAVE $2,000.00 ON JOB MASTER > PRODUCTION AND CONTROL SOFTWARE HAS BEEN HELD OVER > UNTIL DECEMBER 21! > > We received such a high volume of calls on this > special, that we have extended the ordering deadline > until December 21. Start your New Year right with a > complete production control and tracking software > package at an unbeatable price! > > Job Master, normally $2,495.00, remains not only on > sale for $1,495.00, but if we receive your order by > the end of our working day Friday, December 21, > you'll also receive two user licenses and a link to > either Peach Tree, QuickBooks or Excel at no charge, > AN ADDITIONAL THOUSAND DOLLAR SAVINGS. > > Right now, $1,495.00 buys you Job Master, two seats, > and a link to either Peach Tree, QuickBooks or > Excel. Job Master retails for $2,495.00. Seats are > $150.00 and links are $750.00 each. THIS IS A > $3,500.00 VALUE FOR $1,495.00 IF YOU ORDER BY > FRIDAY, December 21. > > Job Master is designed specifically for small to > medium sized manufacturers, and even at our regular > price of $2,495.00 costs many thousands of dollars > less than any other even remotely comparable > software package. > > If you've been waiting to upgrade your production > control and tracking software or to computerize your > operation, now is the time. For one more day, > $1,495.00 gets you everything-Job Master network > version, two user licenses, and a link to your > accounting program or to Excel. > > Job Master, a complete, user friendly Windows based > software package, can manage and control your > operation from sales quote to shipment. > > Following is a list of features. If you have any > questions, and would like to discuss the package > further, or if you would like to obtain our Web site > address for a total walk through of the program, > please call me directly at (661) 286-0041, or email > me at info(a)appsales.net > > By way of background, we are a software company, > which for some years has specialized in the > development of custom software, primarily for small > to medium sized manufacturers. Job Master is a > distillation of over a million and a half dollars of > software we have developed to control and manage the > production of our manufacturing clients. > > Job Master contains the following features: > > 1. QUOTATION MODULE. In this module, quotes are > developed, modified, and produced for sending to > your client. A history is kept of all quotes for > future reference, or modification for other clients. > All quotations and revisions are "auto numbered," > including versions. The quotes section allows for > the entry of parts/processes, and costing of each, > including materials, labor, markup, and taxes. > Inventory status can be accessed from this section > for reference. > > 2. SALES ORDER. Once a quotation is accepted, the > final quotation information can be transformed into > a Sales Order for your client's signature on a > "point and click" basis. The Sales Order can be > modified and re issued if necessary. A history if > kept of all Sales Orders for future reference, or > modification for other clients. All sales orders > and revisions are "auto numbered," including > versions. Inventory status can be accessed from > this section for reference. > > 3. CUSTOMER LETTERS can be created from the > Quotation and Sales Order sections. > > 4. SHOP TRAVELER/WORK ORDER. Once a Sales Order is > accepted, the sales order information can be > transformed into a shop traveler/work order on a > "point and click" basis. Each item on the Sales > Order becomes a shop traveler/work order, with each > step of production of the item then listed on the > traveler/work order. Each such traveler/work order > is tied back into the Sales Order. The shop > traveler/work order allows for the entry of line > items, and notes on each line item. The shop > traveler/work order contains a "notes" section. The > Shop traveler/work order allows for the storing or > attachment of drawings to the traveler/work order. > The shop traveler/work order also contains a "drop > down," from which standard processes can be selected > for inclusion on the shop traveler/work order. The > shop traveler/work order numbers progress in order > of production sequence, and re numbers them if new > steps are added. The shop traveler/work order > allows for change orders or revisions, and! > numbers changes in sequence of the original shop > traveler/work order number; i.e., 100, 100-1, 100-2, > etc. All shop traveler/work orders and related > revisions are retained in memory for future > reference. The shop traveler/work order is bar > coded for tracking of production step by step, and > production of ongoing client status reports. Bar > coding includes the ability for an employee to > "swipe" their own ID bar code for recording in the > system as to who upgraded what step. The shop > traveler/work order function also allows for manual > update of production status. The shop traveler/work > order allows for quality control sign off, and the > final production of certifications, either from a > "canned" list, or hand typed in on a case by case > basis. > > 5. INVENTORY. The application includes an inventory > section, which allows operations to check materials > inventory in and out. The inventory section allows > for the comparison of inventory received against a > P.O., and produces an "overage/underage" report of > inventory received as compared against the P.O. The > inventory section allows for the setting of minimum > (re-order now!) and maximum inventory amounts, and > produces reports showing what inventory needs to be > ordered, as well as inventory that is at or above > the maximum set to have in house. The inventory > section also tracks "partially shipped" orders, > which are tied in to the shipping function. This > section shows how much completed product under a > particular order has been actually shipped to a > client, and how much remains to be shipped. The > balance is adjusted as shipments are made. > > 6. REQUEST FOR PURCHASE. The application allows > operators to produce a Request For Purchase for > accounting for any inventory items, which need to be > ordered. Inventory items have a drop down of > approved vendors for each item. > > 7. REQUEST FOR BID. The application allows > operators to produce a Request For Bid for > accounting to send to Vendors for any inventory > items, which need to be ordered. Inventory items > have a drop down of approved vendors for each item > to which Requests For Bid can be sent. > > 8. INVOICE. The application produces an > invoice/invoice detail for all completed items ready > to be billed/shipped to clients. > > 9. PRODUCTION OUTPUT STATUS. The application > produces a date range selectable report on how much > product, and the value of the product, which was > completed during a selected date range. The > application also produces a report on how many > orders, and the value of those orders, which remain > to be completed during a selected date range. > > 10. The application produces SHIPPING DOCUMENTS as > per selected shippers, and produces a PACKING SLIP. > > 11. The application has a "FIND" FUNCTION in > selected sections, allowing for searches by customer > name, work order number, etc. > > 12. The application has "AUTO FILL;" i.e., when an > operator starts to type in a name, number, etc. all > related information auto fills after the first few > letters or numbers are typed in. > > Job Master is currently being sold in the > marketplace for $2,495.00 per package. However, if > we receive your order by December 21, your total > price will be $1,495.00 INCLUDING a free link to > either Peach Tree, QuickBooks or Excel (a $750.00 > value) and two free seats (a $300.00 value). > > Again, if you have any questions at all, or would > like to place your order, please call me on my > direct line, (661) 286-0041 or email me at > info(a)appsales.net. > > Thank you! > > > Wayne McFarland > Link It Software Corp. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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Nov-L: Supremes will interpret Apprendi in guns/drug offenses early 2002 (fwd)
by measl＠mfn.org 13 Dec '01

13 Dec '01

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:51:33 -0800 From: Nora Callahan <nora(a)november.org> To: november-l(a)november.org Subject: Nov-L: Supremes will interpret Apprendi in guns/drug offenses early 2002 Supreme Court accepts challenge of federal gun crime GINA HOLLAND, Associated Press Writer (12-10) 11:23 PST WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court agreed Monday to consider the fairness of federal prison terms for inmates given longer sentences for using a firearm in their crimes. The question for justices: whether juries or judges should decide if someone brandished or discharged a weapon while committing a crime. In federal courts, juries must decide beyond a reasonable doubt if there was a crime. Whether a gun was involved can be settled separately by a judge, who uses a lesser standard of proof. The Supreme Court will review the case of William Joseph Harris, whose attorneys argued that the process violates defendants� constitutional rights to due process and a jury trial. The weapon allegation does not have to be listed in an indictment. Congress requires longer prison sentences for people who use guns during violent crimes or drug dealing. The penalty for brandishing a weapon is at least seven years in prison and for discharging a gun is 10 years. Harris had pleaded guilty in 1999 to selling marijuana out of his pawn shop in Albemarle, N.C. He wore a pistol in a hip holster while at work for safety reasons, his lawyer told the court. Harris bragged during one sale that his homemade bullets could pierce a police officer�s armored jacket, according to government records. A judge convicted him of brandishing a gun while engaged in drug trafficking, then sentenced him to the mandatory seven years in prison. "He could have received seven years even without that finding," the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said in rejecting his case. The Bush administration had urged the Supreme Court to also turn back Harris� appeal, arguing that Congress in 1998 properly set penalties for criminals who use weapons. Justices decided to hear arguments in the case next year. Harris� appeal relies on a 2000 Supreme Court ruling that overturned a New Jersey man�s sentence for a hate crime. Justices said a jury�not a judge� should have decided if Charles Apprendi was motivated by bias when he fired shots into the home of a black family. Apprendi, who is white, had gotten a longer sentence because a judge ruled it was a hate crime. "Any fact that increases the penalty for a crime beyond the prescribed statutory maximum must be submitted to a jury, and proved beyond a reasonable doubt," the court said in the Apprendi case. Multiple appeals are pending or have come through the Supreme Court with similar arguments from defendants in drug cases. The case is Harris v. United States, 00-10666. -- The November Coalition, founded in 1997 is a 501 (c) (3) nonprofit organization, your gifts are tax deductible. You can send your donation to: The November Coalition 795 South Cedar Colville, WA 99114 -------- November-L is a voluntary mailing list of the November Coalition. To unsubscribe, visit http://www.november.org/lists/ or send a message to november-L-request(a)november.org containing the command "unsubscribe"

2 1

REMOVE ME FROM THIS LIST NOWWWWW!!!!!!!
by The Silence 13 Dec '01

13 Dec '01

--- info(a)appsales.net wrote: > (To be removed from our list, Please click on or > send an email to: remove(a)appsales.net. Please put > REMOVE as the subject. If you do not have REMOVE as > your subject you may be overlooked for removal) > > (JMP1128) THE CHANCE TO SAVE $2,000.00 ON JOB MASTER > PRODUCTION AND CONTROL SOFTWARE HAS BEEN HELD OVER > UNTIL DECEMBER 21! > > We received such a high volume of calls on this > special, that we have extended the ordering deadline > until December 21. Start your New Year right with a > complete production control and tracking software > package at an unbeatable price! > > Job Master, normally $2,495.00, remains not only on > sale for $1,495.00, but if we receive your order by > the end of our working day Friday, December 21, > you'll also receive two user licenses and a link to > either Peach Tree, QuickBooks or Excel at no charge, > AN ADDITIONAL THOUSAND DOLLAR SAVINGS. > > Right now, $1,495.00 buys you Job Master, two seats, > and a link to either Peach Tree, QuickBooks or > Excel. Job Master retails for $2,495.00. Seats are > $150.00 and links are $750.00 each. THIS IS A > $3,500.00 VALUE FOR $1,495.00 IF YOU ORDER BY > FRIDAY, December 21. > > Job Master is designed specifically for small to > medium sized manufacturers, and even at our regular > price of $2,495.00 costs many thousands of dollars > less than any other even remotely comparable > software package. > > If you've been waiting to upgrade your production > control and tracking software or to computerize your > operation, now is the time. For one more day, > $1,495.00 gets you everything-Job Master network > version, two user licenses, and a link to your > accounting program or to Excel. > > Job Master, a complete, user friendly Windows based > software package, can manage and control your > operation from sales quote to shipment. > > Following is a list of features. If you have any > questions, and would like to discuss the package > further, or if you would like to obtain our Web site > address for a total walk through of the program, > please call me directly at (661) 286-0041, or email > me at info(a)appsales.net > > By way of background, we are a software company, > which for some years has specialized in the > development of custom software, primarily for small > to medium sized manufacturers. Job Master is a > distillation of over a million and a half dollars of > software we have developed to control and manage the > production of our manufacturing clients. > > Job Master contains the following features: > > 1. QUOTATION MODULE. In this module, quotes are > developed, modified, and produced for sending to > your client. A history is kept of all quotes for > future reference, or modification for other clients. > All quotations and revisions are "auto numbered," > including versions. The quotes section allows for > the entry of parts/processes, and costing of each, > including materials, labor, markup, and taxes. > Inventory status can be accessed from this section > for reference. > > 2. SALES ORDER. Once a quotation is accepted, the > final quotation information can be transformed into > a Sales Order for your client's signature on a > "point and click" basis. The Sales Order can be > modified and re issued if necessary. A history if > kept of all Sales Orders for future reference, or > modification for other clients. All sales orders > and revisions are "auto numbered," including > versions. Inventory status can be accessed from > this section for reference. > > 3. CUSTOMER LETTERS can be created from the > Quotation and Sales Order sections. > > 4. SHOP TRAVELER/WORK ORDER. Once a Sales Order is > accepted, the sales order information can be > transformed into a shop traveler/work order on a > "point and click" basis. Each item on the Sales > Order becomes a shop traveler/work order, with each > step of production of the item then listed on the > traveler/work order. Each such traveler/work order > is tied back into the Sales Order. The shop > traveler/work order allows for the entry of line > items, and notes on each line item. The shop > traveler/work order contains a "notes" section. The > Shop traveler/work order allows for the storing or > attachment of drawings to the traveler/work order. > The shop traveler/work order also contains a "drop > down," from which standard processes can be selected > for inclusion on the shop traveler/work order. The > shop traveler/work order numbers progress in order > of production sequence, and re numbers them if new > steps are added. The shop traveler/work order > allows for change orders or revisions, and! > numbers changes in sequence of the original shop > traveler/work order number; i.e., 100, 100-1, 100-2, > etc. All shop traveler/work orders and related > revisions are retained in memory for future > reference. The shop traveler/work order is bar > coded for tracking of production step by step, and > production of ongoing client status reports. Bar > coding includes the ability for an employee to > "swipe" their own ID bar code for recording in the > system as to who upgraded what step. The shop > traveler/work order function also allows for manual > update of production status. The shop traveler/work > order allows for quality control sign off, and the > final production of certifications, either from a > "canned" list, or hand typed in on a case by case > basis. > > 5. INVENTORY. The application includes an inventory > section, which allows operations to check materials > inventory in and out. The inventory section allows > for the comparison of inventory received against a > P.O., and produces an "overage/underage" report of > inventory received as compared against the P.O. The > inventory section allows for the setting of minimum > (re-order now!) and maximum inventory amounts, and > produces reports showing what inventory needs to be > ordered, as well as inventory that is at or above > the maximum set to have in house. The inventory > section also tracks "partially shipped" orders, > which are tied in to the shipping function. This > section shows how much completed product under a > particular order has been actually shipped to a > client, and how much remains to be shipped. The > balance is adjusted as shipments are made. > > 6. REQUEST FOR PURCHASE. The application allows > operators to produce a Request For Purchase for > accounting for any inventory items, which need to be > ordered. Inventory items have a drop down of > approved vendors for each item. > > 7. REQUEST FOR BID. The application allows > operators to produce a Request For Bid for > accounting to send to Vendors for any inventory > items, which need to be ordered. Inventory items > have a drop down of approved vendors for each item > to which Requests For Bid can be sent. > > 8. INVOICE. The application produces an > invoice/invoice detail for all completed items ready > to be billed/shipped to clients. > > 9. PRODUCTION OUTPUT STATUS. The application > produces a date range selectable report on how much > product, and the value of the product, which was > completed during a selected date range. The > application also produces a report on how many > orders, and the value of those orders, which remain > to be completed during a selected date range. > > 10. The application produces SHIPPING DOCUMENTS as > per selected shippers, and produces a PACKING SLIP. > > 11. The application has a "FIND" FUNCTION in > selected sections, allowing for searches by customer > name, work order number, etc. > > 12. The application has "AUTO FILL;" i.e., when an > operator starts to type in a name, number, etc. all > related information auto fills after the first few > letters or numbers are typed in. > > Job Master is currently being sold in the > marketplace for $2,495.00 per package. However, if > we receive your order by December 21, your total > price will be $1,495.00 INCLUDING a free link to > either Peach Tree, QuickBooks or Excel (a $750.00 > value) and two free seats (a $300.00 value). > > Again, if you have any questions at all, or would > like to place your order, please call me on my > direct line, (661) 286-0041 or email me at > info(a)appsales.net. > > Thank you! > > > Wayne McFarland > Link It Software Corp. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > === message truncated === ===== MSM Management 5713 Harco St. Long Beach, CA 90808 Office: (213) 760-2258 Http://www.thesilencemusic.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

1 0

Cultural libertarianism the real threat to America?
by Matthew Gaylor 13 Dec '01

13 Dec '01

[Note from Matthew Gaylor: I could have titled this essay Jonah Goldberg doesn't get it. Mr. Goldberg is the online editor for National Review and has written a series of attack pieces on libertarianism. Below is the newest example. I did read one line that jumped from the page that is the crystallization of his view of conservatism when he wrote: "You foster good character by limiting freedom". Then curiously Goldberg writes: "I've done lots of things in my life that are "un-conservative." Even now, my personal tastes are not entirely consistent with what most people associate with conservatism." I can only regard his appeasement a personal rejection of the conservative values he is talking about, which I suppose he made in hopes of still being able to get laid- But on to the "meat" of his argument- I'm not entirely sure what ideology Goldberg wants imposed on us? It surely can't be an American one as outlined in our first amendment" "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." I don't see a constitutional mandate to impose any religion on anybody? Nor can I see where limiting freedom by continuing the war on drugs to be anything beneficial? I really have nothing but contempt and disdain for writers such as Goldberg who want to impose some sort of ill defined governmental "conservatism" while personally considering himself a member of the elite which doesn't have to follows rules made for the rest of the sheep.] <http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg121201.shtml> Jonah Goldberg can be reached at (JonahEmail(a)aol.com) Freedom Kills John Walker, Andrew Sullivan, and the libertarian threat. By Jonah Goldberg, NRO editor December 12, 2001 6:25 p.m. First, George Bush refers to "the evildoers" at every turn, but insists on pronouncing it "the evil Dewars." And now the major news networks are constantly referring to John Walker, the American Taliban, as "Johnny Walker": "Is Johnny Walker un-American?" "Does Johnny Walker represent a viper in our midst?" etc. Well, you can count me out of the "war on terrorism" if it becomes a proxy war on our most cherished brown liquors. What John Walker Says About the Right So let's talk about John Walker, the man, and leave poor Johnny out of this. Indeed, it's turning out that John is one of the most interesting cultural Rorschach tests we've had in a while. If you haven't been following the argument, you should read the article in yesterday's New York Times comparing the life of Mike Spann - the "God and country" CIA agent who was killed in Afghanistan - to that of John Walker, the son of hippy-dippy divorced parents from Marin County, California. The article put some flesh on what a lot of conservatives have been saying over the last week. Spann is a red-state guy, Walker a blue-stater. Spann is from Alabama: He's religious, from a strong, stable family, and he always wanted to fight for his country. Walker comes from a wishy-washy, whatever-floats-your-boat family living in the shadow of - where else? - San Francisco. The always eye-opening Shelby Steele made the definitive "blue state" argument in Monday's Wall Street Journal. In brief, Steele argues that Walker is a product of overly permissive, fashionably anti-American Left-coast liberalism. Andrew Sullivan, of the coincidentally named AndrewSullivan.com, also saw Walker's obvious cultural significance, labeling him a poster boy of blue-state culture. But Sullivan then backed off from the "blue state" argument, after his readers persuaded him that he had it wrong. The Walker case is "much more complex and more interesting than my original impression," Sullivan writes. One of the arguments that persuaded him to drop his "blue state" analysis is the fact that Walker became a "right-wing" fanatic. He excerpts a letter from a reader making this case: Maybe I missed something, but I am not sure how a religious fundamentalist and zealot like John Walker is an embodiment of the American Hating Left. He is a right wing religious nut just like the guy arrested here in Cincinnati last week for sending fake anthrax to abortion clinics. While you may be correct that his permissive parents and his multicultural context may have produced him (sounds like something some right wing nut case would say about homosexuality, right Andrew?), what it produced was a right wing Islamic religious nut who hates the West and America for its decadence (which he enjoyed and benefited from) and sin, just like his brothers on the right wing Christian extreme (like maybe Tim McVeigh, who was a Catholic to boot?). Let's at least be honest that Walker represents some of the worst of American permissiveness and multiculturalism, while being the embodiment of right wing religious fanaticism. I think we all get caught on this one. The lefties, meanwhile, have been slow out of the gate, but basically think that tagging the Left with Walker is just so much McCarthyism. But that's not what I want to talk about. The Problem of Andrew Sullivanism What I do want to talk about is the problem with the conservative critique of Walker and with Sullivan's approach in general. It's not surprising that Sullivan changed his mind after reading that letter. After all, he had already made it a project, if not a mission, to establish that so-called "theocons" (i.e. religious conservatives, particularly Christian ones) practiced a form of Talibanism - long before most people in the United States had ever heard of the Taliban. For example, in the cover story for the current New Republic, on the future of conservatism, Sullivan uses the war on Islamic extremists to argue that America, and conservatives in particular, need to drop our own support for such "extremists" at home. "It is hard to fight a war against politico-religious extremism," Sullivan writes, "if you are winking at milder versions in your own political coalition." This is reminiscent of his argument during the Clinton impeachment battles. "For the new conservatives," Sullivan wrote in 1998 in The New York Times Magazine, "the counterattack on homosexual legitimacy is of a piece with the battle against presidential adultery." Sullivan's essay in The New Republic is certainly worth reading, but in the end his conclusion is that all branches of conservatism are wrong, and that they should basically adopt Sullivan's own quirky, iconoclastic, personal brand of conservatism, complete with his imperative of incorporating gays into the mainstream conservative movement. In a nutshell, this is my problem with Andrew Sullivan's conservatism. He's a brilliant and charming guy. But he seems to reject or critique all forms of conservatism that don't dovetail with his own personal priorities. I'm not referring solely, or even primarily, to his homosexuality or advocacy of gay rights. From what I can tell, Sullivan's conservatism is informed not just by his sexuality but by his Catholicism, his blue-collar British roots, his serious hang-ups about British authoritarian culture, and - not least - by the fact that he's a follower of the British philosopher Michael Oakeshott (if I were smarter and more patient, I think I'd be an Oakeshottian too) and a protigi of the classical conservative Harvey Mansfield. Moreover, Sullivan's conservatism isn't just informed by these things, it's informed by the perhaps insurmountable contradictions between these things. For example: Oakeshott had a brilliantly nuanced and highly tolerant understanding of conservatism and of liberal society (he believed, I think, that the best metaphor for a good society was a good conversation). Meanwhile, Catholicism is wonderful, but it's hardly a democratic institution. And as for Mansfield, he's a leading opponent of gay rights. Further, anti-traditionalism in Britain may have its uses, but in America anti-traditionalism runs against many of the things conservatives rightly want to preserve. As Hayek pointed out, in America you can be a conservative traditionalist and still be a champion of liberty - because our institutions preserve liberty rather than combat it. Anyway, my point is: That's all great. These sometimes competing, sometimes complimentary impulses make Sullivan a joy to read (and talk to). But the extrapolation of one's personal beliefs - or, more accurately, one's personality - to a broad universal philosophy is at minimum a form of arrogance, and at maximum a recipe for disaster. Take me, for example. I've done lots of things in my life that are "un-conservative." Even now, my personal tastes are not entirely consistent with what most people associate with conservatism. But, I do not argue that conservatism would be better off if everybody adopted my own personal choices and tastes. Rather, I try to make the case for old-style conservatism in a way lots of people like me can relate to. The fact that I can't or won't live up to the ideal may make me hypocritical to a certain extent, but that doesn't mean the message is wrong. As the moral philosopher Max Scheler reportedly said: The sign that points to Boston doesn't have to go there. Sullivan is right to criticize certain conservatives for being too ideological. But what he doesn't give credit for, to these same conservatives, is that a little ideology is always necessary in order to remember what your ideas are. Chinese-Menu Culture If Sullivan is guilty of translating his personal priorities into a public agenda, he at least does so by speaking in the vocabulary of morality. His arguments for everything from gay marriage to the war on terrorism are deeply moral and proudly conservative. The real villains - the ones who take this sort of political solipsism a great deal further than Sullivan - are to be found elsewhere, and John Walker is a logical consequence of their political agenda. You see, the real enemy isn't the cultural liberalism Shelby Steele describes. It's the cultural libertarianism that is rapidly replacing liberalism as the real threat to America, and the true opposition to conservatism. Cultural libertarianism basically says that whatever ideology, religion, cult, belief, creed, fad, hobby, or personal fantasy you like is just fine so long as you don't impose it on anybody else, especially with the government. You want to be a Klingon? Great! Attend the Church of Satan? Hey man, if that does it for ya, go for it. You want to be a "Buddhist for Jesus"? Sure, mix and match, man; we don't care. Hell, you can even be an observant Jew, a devout Catholic or a faithful Baptist, or a lifelong heroin addict - they're all the same, in the eyes of a cultural libertarian. Just remember: Keep it to yourself if you can. Don't claim that being a Lutheran is any better than being a member of the Hale-Bopp cult, and never use the government to advance your view. If you can do that, then - whatever floats your boat. Of course, liberalism subscribes to something very similar, but today's liberalism is more of a condescending pose. It finds exotic ideologues - Marxists, black separatists, transgender theorists, whatever - fashionable and interesting as entertainment. The liberals who run the New York Times are simply thrilled to have these sorts of cultural rejectionists at their cocktail parties. But very few of them want their kids to become any such thing. They want their kids to go to private schools, attend an Ivy League or comparable liberal-arts college in New England, and become nice tolerant stockbrokers who are extra-careful to donate generously to the United Way, 'cause that might help people of color. But, at the same time, modern liberals hate traditional orthodoxies. If you're a pious Zoroastrian, they will show you off to their friends as if you were an exotic fertility mask they bought on a vacation safari. But if you are a pious Baptist, don't wait by the phone, because you won't be invited over at all. And, of course, liberals see no problem with using the government to impose their cultural beliefs on others; they just won't admit that's what they're doing. In this sense, cultural libertarians are less bigoted than their liberal cousins. The libertarians think all ideologies - so long as there's no governmental component - are equal. But of course, the flip side of this is that cultural libertarianism is essentially a form of arrogant nihilism. There are no universal truths or even group truths (i.e., the authority of tradition, patriotism, etc.) - only personal ones. According to cultural libertarianism, we should all start believing in absolutely nothing, until we find whichever creed or ideology fits us best. We can pick from across the vast menu of human diversity - from all religions and cultures, real and imagined - until we find one that fits our own personal preferences. Virginia Postrel can write triumphantly that the market allows Americans to spend $8 billion on porn and $3 billion at Christian bookstores, because she isn't willing to say that one is any better, or any worse, than the other. Unreasonable Reason The leading champions of this ideology are the folks over at Reason magazine. Nick Gillespie, who recently replaced Postrel as the editor, is a voluptuary of the idea that we can all have individualized, designer cultures. While he's got a healthy disdain for identity politics, Gillespie keeps going beyond that, and argues that people should be able to be whatever they want. Perhaps because cultural libertarianism is so popular on the Left these days, Gillespie recently told the Washington Post that he will try to woo anti-drug-war liberals, and others on the Left, to the magazine. For a long time, but now more than ever, Reason has essentially argued that being a drug addict is a lifestyle choice like any other. Because, hey, who are we to judge? Indeed, Gillespie is very fond of the usual argument of pro-drug libertarians: I've done lots of drugs, and I turned out okay - so why should I tell other people they can't? In the latest issue, featuring a big neon sign spelling "DRUGS" on the cover, Gillespie confesses that when he was younger, he did "pot and alcohol, mostly, but also acid, mescaline, Ecstasy, mushrooms, coke and meth... Mostly I did drugs because they were fun and I liked the way I felt when I was high." In other words, if it's good for me, it's good for everybody. So what does all of this have to do with John Walker? Well, John Walker's father has told various interviewers that he was just delighted that his son believed in something. He liked the fact that his son had "passion" for something. The fact that it was a thumb-in-the-eye to traditional Western values made him more exotic, to be sure. But that was just gravy. You don't turn children into responsible adults by giving them absolute freedom. You foster good character by limiting freedom, and by channeling energies into the most productive avenues. That's what all good schools, good families, and good societies do. The Boy Scouts don't throw a pocketknife to a kid and say, "Knock yourself out, kid. I'll be back in a couple hours." The cultural libertarians want to do precisely that. Someone threw John Walker a copy of The Autobiography of Malcolm X and said, "Knock yourself out, kid." From there, left to his own devices, he slid down a long slope to the Taliban - because nobody had the moral courage or maturity to put him on the right path. He could just as easily have become another Columbine spree-killer, or a drug addict - or, perhaps, a fireman. But any of these, it seems, would be a surprise to his father. It's hip and cool to say, "Be whatever you want." But - as in the case of the Boy Scout with the pocketknife - it's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye. If you tell kids they can believe in anything (and that anybody who disagrees is a bigot), you will eventually breed a bunch of kids who despise the very openness you champion. Western civilization in general and American culture in particular are remarkably, almost uniquely, open to and tolerant of competing views and faiths. That's wonderful. But pluralism is not, to borrow a phrase, a suicide pact. Chesterton pointed out that when a man stops believing in God, he won't believe in nothing, he'll believe in anything. God isn't necessarily the issue here. But the principle is the same. Humans, especially children, very much want to believe in things. If we don't bother to teach - or impose - certain Western values on our own people, they will embrace values that are neither open nor tolerant. Belief in "something" just isn't good enough. __________________________________________________________________________ Distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. --- ************************************************************************** Subscribe to Freematt's Alerts: Pro-Individual Rights Issues Send a blank message to: freematt(a)coil.com with the words subscribe FA on the subject line. List is private and moderated (7-30 messages per week) Matthew Gaylor, (614) 313-5722 ICQ: 106212065 Archived at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fa/ **************************************************************************

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Pentagon Releases bin Laden Tape
by Jim Choate 13 Dec '01

13 Dec '01

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20011213/us/afghan_bin_laden_tape_15.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?
by super ego 13 Dec '01

13 Dec '01

HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE? HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE IN A OUR GOVERNMENT WHEN EVERY POLITICIAN IN AMERICAN HISTORY HAS LIED TO GET INTO OFFICE, WITH THE IDEA OF TELL THEM WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR? NOT A SINGLE POLITICIAN IN OUR GOVERNMENT USES HIS GOOD REPUTATION OR HIS BACK GROUND TO GET INTO OFFICE ANYMORE. THEY RAISE AN ISSUE THAT IS MOST NERVE RACKING AND STAND ON THE SIDE THAT GETS THEM MORE VOTES. THEY DO NOT CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT, THEY WANT INTO OFFICE ANY THEY WILL LIE AND TELL YOU WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR IN ORDER TO GET IT. HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE? WHEN ALL LAWYERS HOLD BACK EVIDENCE TO WIN OR LOOSE A CASE? HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE? WHEN THE FBI AND CIA LIE AND CHEAT AND STEAL AND COVER UP AND UNDER STATE AND BLACK MAIL YOU TO KEEP NATIONAL SECURITY SAFE FOR THERE OIL DRIVEN SELF INTERESTS? EXAMPLES OF GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS USING LIES AND CORRUPTION TO STAY OR KEEP POWER. 1 JFK 2 WATER GATE 3 GRANADA 4 PANAMA CANAL 5 ROSENBURGS 6 LOS ALAMOS 7 CLINTON 8 REAGAN (COLD WAR LIES) 9 BUSH 1&2 GULF OIL WAR 10 ELIAN FBI LIES 11 FBI WACO 12 FBI TIM MISSING FILES 13 BUSH/GORE ELECTIONS 14 SENATOR CONDATE COVER UP 15 HILLARY LIES AND MORE IF YOU READ BETWEEN THE LINES OF WHAT ALL POLITICIANS SAY. HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE? WHEN NOT A SINGLE POLITICIAN GIVES IT TO YOU STRAIGHT SINCE LINCOLN. HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE? WHEN MORE THAN HALF THE WORLD HATE US BECAUSE WE LIE TO GET OUR WAY? OUR COUNTRY IS NOT AN HONEST ONE AND IF YOU THINK THAT IN ANY WAY IT IS YOUR A LIER ALSO. WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND AND ONE DAY AMERICA WILL LOOSE SO GET READY BECAUSE IT LOOK LIKE IT ON ITS WAY. IF YOU THINK THAT ITS OK TO HURT SOMEONE EXPECT TO GET HURT. HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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The Register - The Microsoft Secure PC: MS patents a lock-down OS
by Jim Choate 13 Dec '01

13 Dec '01

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23387.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE?
by Jim Choate 13 Dec '01

13 Dec '01

If you check the Cypherpunks archives you'll find an 18 point answer to that question I posted in the last year or so. On Thu, 13 Dec 2001 baptista(a)pccf.net wrote: > so .. how do you propose the problems be fixed? > > On Thu, 13 Dec 2001, super ego wrote: > > > HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE? > > > > HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE IN A OUR GOVERNMENT WHEN EVERY > > POLITICIAN IN AMERICAN HISTORY HAS LIED TO GET INTO > > OFFICE, WITH THE IDEA OF TELL THEM WHAT THEY WANT TO > > HEAR? > > > > NOT A SINGLE POLITICIAN IN OUR GOVERNMENT USES HIS > > GOOD REPUTATION OR HIS BACK GROUND TO GET INTO OFFICE > > ANYMORE. THEY RAISE AN ISSUE THAT IS MOST NERVE > > RACKING AND STAND ON THE SIDE THAT GETS THEM MORE > > VOTES. THEY DO NOT CARE ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT, THEY WANT > > INTO OFFICE ANY THEY WILL LIE AND TELL YOU WHAT YOU > > WANT TO HEAR IN ORDER TO GET IT. [SSZ: text deleted] -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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The Register - Watch out! There's an anti-terrorist law about (UK)
by Jim Choate 13 Dec '01

13 Dec '01

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/23374.html -- -- ____________________________________________________________________ Day by day the Penguins are making me lose my mind. Bumper Sticker The Armadillo Group ,::////;::-. James Choate Austin, Tx /:'///// ``::>/|/ ravage(a)ssz.com www.ssz.com .', |||| `/( e\ 512-451-7087 -====~~mm-'`-```-mm --'- --------------------------------------------------------------------

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