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Rigging Election: Clinton and DNC Incite Violence at Trump Rallies
by grarpamp 22 Oct '16

22 Oct '16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IuJGHuIkzY Published on Oct 17, 2016 In this explosive new video from Project Veritas Action, a Democratic dirty tricks operative unwittingly provides a dark money trail to the DNC and Clinton campaign. The video documents violence at Trump rallies that is traced to the Clinton campaign and the DNC through a process called birddogging A shady coordinated communications chain between the DNC, Clinton Campaign, Hillary Clinton's Super PAC (Priorities) and other organizations are revealed. A key Clinton operative is on camera saying, It doesn't matter what the friggin legal and ethics people say, we need to win this motherfucker." https://www.facebook.com/ProjectVerit https://twitter.com/@Pveritas_Action http://projectveritasaction.com/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEE8w-v6Gg4j3ze3oX-urEw/videos Don't forget, US Sec Of State Kerry just visited London. Quoting some random anon "Ecuador moved at the behest of Hillary, Kerry and pals in the US government. I have no doubt that the pressure on Ecuador is immense. The elites are desperate to stop Assange and his leaks. Even at this late hour, the thought that the truth might get out terrifies them enough that all agree on increasingly desperate measures. As the web of lies and tattered economy they have left in their wake comes undone, I have no doubt that we will see more and more extreme actions like this from our ruling elite. Today also, RT's bank accounts in the UK were unilaterally closed, again at the behest of the US government. War with Russia is being drummed up at all costs, because only a major war can save the Elites from the banquest of consequences their enraged populations have in store for them. Don't be naive enough to swallow the pathetic excuses the shills will render up. The US and western elites have finally moved on Assange, because he committed the most unforgivable sin of all; he made them afraid." People with things that go bang make them afraid too, which explains their policy below... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HrUUXOHgzg

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Intercept Greenwald Klein Talk Waffling Full Disclosure
by grarpamp 21 Oct '16

21 Oct '16

https://theintercept.com/2016/10/19/is-disclosure-of-podestas-emails-a-step… youtube-dl https://soundcloud.com/the_intercept/disclosure_glennnaomi_v1 Some news organizations, including The Intercept, have devoted substantial resources to reporting on the newsworthy aspects of the archive of emails of Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta that was published last week by WikiLeaks. Numerous documents from that archive have shed considerable light on the thought processes and previously secret behavior of top Clinton campaign aides and often the candidate herself. While the significance of particular stories has been debated, there is no denying that many of those disclosures offer a valuable glimpse into campaign operatives who currently exercise great political power and who, as of January of next year, are likely to be among the most powerful officials on the planet. Despite her agreement with those propositions, the author and activist Naomi Klein believes there are serious threats to personal privacy and other critical political values posed by hacks of this sort, particularly when accompanied by the indiscriminate publication of someone’s personal emails.

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Torgate: SchrodingersK1t vs isislovecruft re SummerSchool Croatia
by grarpamp 21 Oct '16

21 Oct '16

https://twitter.com/SchrodingersK1t/status/788506585584766976 On my experiences with @isislovecruft in Croatia, mere days after @ioerror resigned from @torproject: https://schrodingersk1t.github.io/ (https://twitter.com/shiromarieke/status/788513758515699713 As I have been asked: @SchrodingersK1t has few followers and you may not know them. I met them IRL. So did many others. They're real.) This is my recollection of events and how I experienced them during the Summerschool on Real-World Crypto and Privacy held in Croatia from 6-10 June. Let me first sketch the situation. In April I tutored Jake on a formal verification class for which there was an exam in the last week of June. I convinced Jake to come to Croatia after I got my stipend, so I could tutor him there. At first he was not going to join because of conflicting travel plans, even though he had attended the summerschool in the previous year. On May 26th Security in Times of Surveillance took place in Eindhoven and Jake was supposed to give a talk. ...

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Corrupt Hillary's position on Encryption.
by jim bell 21 Oct '16

21 Oct '16

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/video/leaked-emails-suggest-cozy-relationship… [Don't worry: Hillary always has a PUBLIC position and a PRIVATE position.] Jim Bell

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Re: Intercept Greenwald Klein Talk Waffling Full Disclosure
by Cari Machet 20 Oct '16

20 Oct '16

Yes well naomi is an elite so elite's concern themselves with so called "protections" Hierarchy is in all human shit Activists that are elite pose a huge threat to us all tremendously more than any leak ever could On Oct 20, 2016 8:47 PM, "Razer" <rayzer(a)riseup.net> wrote: On 10/20/2016 10:26 AM, Kevin Gallagher wrote: > Thanks for the reply! I will consider these things. > > The only thing that worries me is the proposal that we use the same > criteria as the people we are claiming to be criminals. Implicate the > whole family for the sins of one... It just don't seem like an > improvement to me. It isn't. But it's a starting point to hold the people who accumulate power for self-advantage (ie psychopaths) accountable for their power by not allowing them a right to wield that power without panopticon-like observation. It implies that people who are born to privilege are > incapable of seeing the problems with the system and escaping it. Some people 'escape'. It's usually glaring obvious who those people are, and there aren't many. Even fewer manage to avoid falling back into that comfortable 'nest' of affluence. I'm > not sure that's the best way, but at the moment I don't yet have an > alternative, so I will just think about it for a while. We need to start somewhere. Start with the people who have the power and have the ability to violate OUR privacy at their government-legitimized whim. Let's get some equality between the gander and the goose so to speak, or OUR gooses get cooked. Recently there's been a reporting, by the Intercept and ACLU notably, about the violation of NODAPL's privacy and safety by COINTELPRO-like ops and data gathering on activists by, ahem, Cloudflare, and others. Leonard Peltier, in his letter of support for the Sacred Stone encampment made a POINT of warning everyone that the end result of that sort of domestic spying may create more "Leonard Peltiers". The same is very true for the BlackLivesMatter folks. They COULD very much end um the next gen of "Geronimo Pratts" and other Black Panthers. Imprisoned for decades for crimes they had no part in because the government was able to fabricate 'circumstances'. I suspect the Useful Idiot organization New Black Panthers are tasked with that endeavor whether they understand it or not. Rr > > Thanks, > > Kevin > > > On 10/20/2016 01:16 PM, Razer wrote: >> >> On 10/20/2016 09:50 AM, Kevin Gallagher wrote: >>> Hello Razer, >>> >>> I actually don't disagree with you at all. I agree with the >>> "transparency for the powerful, privacy for the weak" mindset that is so >>> ingrained in cypherpunk culture. I was just wondering where we draw the >>> line between the powerful and the weak. >>> >> For me that line needs to be drawn where the power over one's personal >> rights is delegated to a government. >> >>> There is no doubt in my mind that the criminals currently running for >>> government positions in the U.S. are powerful, and therefore need >>> transparency, but this brings about a few questions in my mind. Is one >>> powerful because they are related to someone who is powerful? >> >> Could be. Neil Bush's bank in South America has quite the chokehold on >> certain parts of the South American economy. >> >> >> If so, at >>> what point does the relation become "too distant" for someone to be >>> considered powerful? >> >> What say we use the government's standard for Drone Wars. They kill >> whole family and tribal blood lines... or try to. >> >> Charlie Wilson's Haquannis... al-Awalakis, other members of the >> bin-Laden family have been killed though I'm not sure of their direct >> relationship to terrorism. >> >> Is there something other than money or political >>> power that can be considered a source of power? These are just >>> considerations I want to think through, and I was wondering what your >>> take on it was. >> Sigh... Theo Roszak proposed that money and power are really just >> substitutes for, or ways of obtaining, life extension. But that doesn't >> mean age is considered wealth and power in Capitalist societies (though >> it sure does in the few undamaged tribal societies left) >> >> I ascribe to the idea that accumulation of wealth and political power >> (which is for the most part the equivalent of social power over society >> and it's individuals) for the sake of those items dynamic in controlling >> the continuation of wealth and power (hence social control) in the hands >> of oneself and one's friends is a pretty good place to begin, anyway. >> >> That implies for a start, that the wealth and power aren't shared >> voluntarily by that group and they conspire to keep it that way (in >> private). Monarchies and dictatorships are examples. The US is >> essentially a two faction soft dictatorship. 'Soft' in the sense that >> the dictators, neuropsychologically preened for media 'candidates' >> Americans get to select from, have the manufactured consent of of the >> masses that they have the right to rule. >> >> >>> My question was honestly not meant as a critique of your viewpoint, just >>> a clarification so I can think these ideas through. I'm sorry if it >>> offended you. >> >> No offense... I'm just a little testy about the upcoming two-faction of >> a one-party state erections, and everyone who actually thinks it matters >> in any real sense of the word. It's made me a bit defensive. >> >> >>> To answer your question directly: No, that's not unreasonable. I agree >>> with you on it entirely. I just want to consider the implications of >>> things such as family relationships, and where the lines are drawn. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Kevin >> >>> >>> On 10/20/2016 12:41 PM, Razer wrote: >>>> On 10/20/2016 08:56 AM, Kevin Gallagher wrote: >>>>> This is an interesting argument. >>>>> >>>>> For clarification on your opinion, do their children have private lives >>>>> or have they been forced into the spotlight based on nothing but who >>>>> their parents happen to be? >>>>> >>>> Let me put it this way. The warmongering bitch so-called progressive >>>> liberals will vote for probably hahahaha-ed about the drone >>>> assassination death of anwar al-Awalaki's 19 year old son who'd never >>>> been charged with a crime. (more recently that Yemeni taxicab driver who >>>> just happened to pick up the WRONG person) >>>> >>>> Does that hint at my answer your question how I feel about the human >>>> scum offered up as US dictators-of-corporate policy and their >>>> corporatist bffs, and their right to privacy? >>>> >>>> Get this. Fascist HAVE NO RIGHTS (because they grant you none you can >>>> really exercise freely, usefully) and that fucking well includes their >>>> right to have private, cf. CONSPIRATORIAL, lives. >>>> >>>> So Kevin... In light of the above. A question for you. >>>> >>>> Is it considered unusual to think politicians need to be held to a >>>> HIGHER STANDARD needing DIFFERENT RULES if they're going to have >>>> relegated and delegated power over our lives? >>>> >>>> RR >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 10/20/2016 11:30 AM, Razer wrote: >>>>>> On 10/19/2016 12:45 PM, grarpamp wrote: >>>>>>> https://theintercept.com/2016/10/19/is-disclosure-of- podestas-emails-a-step-too-far-a-conversation-with-naomi-klein/ >>>>>>> youtube-dl https://soundcloud.com/the_intercept/disclosure_ glennnaomi_v1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some news organizations, including The Intercept, have devoted >>>>>>> substantial resources to reporting on the newsworthy aspects of the >>>>>>> archive of emails of Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta that was >>>>>>> published last week by WikiLeaks. Numerous documents from that archive >>>>>>> have shed considerable light on the thought processes and previously >>>>>>> secret behavior of top Clinton campaign aides and often the candidate >>>>>>> herself. While the significance of particular stories has been >>>>>>> debated, there is no denying that many of those disclosures offer a >>>>>>> valuable glimpse into campaign operatives who currently exercise great >>>>>>> political power and who, as of January of next year, are likely to be >>>>>>> among the most powerful officials on the planet. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Despite her agreement with those propositions, the author and activist >>>>>>> Naomi Klein believes there are serious threats to personal privacy and >>>>>>> other critical political values posed by hacks of this sort, >>>>>>> particularly when accompanied by the indiscriminate publication of >>>>>>> someone’s personal emails. >>>>>>> >>>>>> That's the downside of having power in a corporatist shitstem and it >>>>>> applies to their whore politicians too. Hillary Clinton is a public >>>>>> person in a high profile position. She HAS NO "Personal emails" afaic. >>>>>> Just like a corporate director has to get up at 3 am while in mid-fuck >>>>>> of some prostitute he hired for the night and get on a plane to 'put out >>>>>> a fire' threatening the corporation, someone whose secretary of state or >>>>>> president HAS NO PRIVATE LIFE. >>>>>> >>>>>> Nor should they. >>>>>> >>>>>> Rr >

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US Nat'l Academies formalizes cooperation with intel agencies to further ensconce academia with imperial neoliberalism
by M373 20 Oct '16

20 Oct '16

Spy agencies team up with National Academies Expanded ties include new board, first-ever survey of social sciences and security By Jeffrey Mervis In an unprecedented move, U.S. intelligence agencies are teaming up with the nation’s most prestigious scientific body in a bid to make better use of findings from the country’s leading social and behavioral scientists. The partnership between the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI) in Tysons Corner, Virginia, and the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine aims to build bridges between communities that historically have either ignored one another or butted heads. The effort includes the creation of a permanent Intelligence Community Studies Board at the academies, which will meet for the first time next week, as well as a first-ever study of how social and behavioral science research might strengthen national security. David Honey, ODNI director of science and technology under Director of National Intelligence James Clapper, says he hopes that the new partnership will help the intelligence community improve how it collects and analyzes information. He and others are eager for help picking out useful and relevant research, as well as grasping where there is a lack of good science. Understanding “the limitations of our knowledge,” says Robert Fein, a national security psychologist in Cambridge, Massachusetts, and a member of the new intelligence board, “will help to protect us against armies of snake oil salesmen.” One area in dire need of better research is figuring out when people are lying, Fein says. After the start of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, he notes, intelligence agencies poured money into research on both mechanical-—think polygraphs—-and behavioral-—think interrogations—-methods of detecting deception. But the results were disappointing, recalls Fein, who led a 2006 report on interrogation techniques for the director of national intelligence. “Researchers overpromised,” he says, “and there were few useful results after millions of dollars were spent.” Even research that generated solid results had serious flaws, he adds. “For example, none of the studies [of deception] involved people who didn’t speak English,” Fein notes, making them of questionable value for use in many current hot spots around the globe. Last week, Honey harvested the first fruits of the fledgling collaboration at a 2-day public summit in Washington, D.C., designed to feed ideas into the upcoming survey of social and behavioral science. Prominent researchers presented talks on everything from decision-making under stress to how social media fuel conspiracy theories. In addition, a panel of intelligence analysts offered a rare glimpse into their classified world and how scientific results need to be tweaked before they can be applied to intelligence and policy. “Scholars like to say, ‘In general, X is the case.’ But as practitioners, we are asked to respond to a specific situation,” explained Charles Gaukel of the National Intelligence Council in Washington, D.C., which consists of senior officials from each of the 16 intelligence agencies across the government. Gaukel also debunked the popular notion that intelligence analysts try to forecast global events. “Our role is not to make predictions,” he said. “Rather, we try to give policy-makers a sense of what’s out there, and how the enemy is likely to respond.” The new survey won’t follow the usual blueprint for so-called decadal surveys, which look ahead 10 years. Traditionally, decadal studies help a particular discipline, such as astrophysics or geoscience, set priorities among competing facilities and projects. They may also recommend how federal agencies can fill gaps and maximize their research portfolios. In contrast, the new study won’t seek to balance competing demands for scientific facilities or examine existing research portfolios at the intelligence agencies. Instead, Honey hopes it will identify current and future research areas that might be useful for national security. Speaking at the summit, Fein suggested that those on the decadal survey might want to convene a panel of intelligence practitioners who would propose areas “that might benefit from the relevant perspectives, data, and knowledge” of social and behavioral scientists. “I can’t forecast what we will learn” from the study, Honey says. “But the history of decadal studies shows their value in pointing to where the research community is headed.” The survey is expected to take 2 years, and more than 300 people have been nominated for the panel’s 18 slots. Despite that strong show of interest, some scientists who support the effort worry that getting involved could harm their research because of public unease about the spy agencies’ activities. “I’m a citizen scientist, and I think this collaboration is great,” says Paul Glimcher, a neuroeconomist at New York University in New York City who spoke at the summit about the Kavli HUMAN project, a deep dive into the behavior and characteristics of 10,000 New York City residents that he leads. But he says his team has “promised our subjects that the data will never be shared with the government. And I’m concerned they might react negatively to my being involved in a study funded by U.S. intelligence agencies.” Some observers see the new intelligence board as a successor to an ODNI science advisory panel that Clapper abolished after becoming the nation’s top spy in 2010. “It seems like at least an admission that the abandonment of [that advisory board] was a mistake and that there is an important role for independent advice from academics to the intelligence community,” says Steven Aftergood, who leads the government secrecy project at the Federation of American Scientists in Washington, D.C. Gaukel may have inadvertently given the pending decadal survey its marching orders during his summit talk on what intelligence analysts do. “We’re looking for truth,” he said. “But we’re particularly looking for truth that works.” Science 14 OCTOBER 2016 • VOL 354 ISSUE 6309 DOI: 10.1126/science.354.6309.155 http://scihub22266oqcxt.onion/http://science.sciencemag.org/content/354/630…

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Causing systemic change / achieving a lasting "win" - honest businessmen - gold and silver coin
by Zenaan Harkness 20 Oct '16

20 Oct '16

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 07:44:42PM -0300, juan wrote: > This is what happens to honest businessmen in the US > https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2012/03/26/use-real-money-go-to-f… Not only the USA. Robert Kahre's mistake was to fail to build a solid grass-roots group of similarly principled companions. No, paying salaries to your employees does not count ... The era of lone Ulyssees heros, plating the flag on the hilltop, being hailed by the throngs of well wishers, is over. A win for the community, must genuinely involve "the community" - that is, many thousands of individuals who actually stand the ground of the win/ cause/ human right/ change to the system, that is being attempted. That way for example, Robert Kahre would have had thousands of individuals, not only from his own company, rocking up to court hearings, protesting the IRS, joining in his legal court cases as parties interested - as in a class action - and much more. Fail to build a team of fellow humans who genuinely share your vision, and you shall do little more than suffer the wrath of the existing powers that be. And what exactly is the point of martyrdom? You won't get many brownie points these days, and those you do get are little more than "good on ya mate"... We have here in Australia the example of a state senator who conducted a multi-year information gathering exercise regarding municipal/town water fluoridation. He ultimately collected a lot of original documents, and published the 1000+ page volume (or three), along with the 100 page summary volume, along with the 30 page summary summary volume, along with the 50-point two page summary summary summary page (bones go brittle, fluorosis, hypothalamus encrusting and consequential mental impairment, congenital effects, much better/ more efficatious/ targetted options, etc etc (50 headline bombshells). AFter all this, he proposed alteration to legislation and banning of fluoridation of human (drinking) water supplies, had that legislation single handedly passed, and the State of Queensland, Australia, was without fluoridated municipal water for two to three years. He did not get elected for a second 6 or 7 year term, and fluoride was reintroduced in that next term, in short order. Moral of the story? A win/change by a lone individual will not last the next term of government where he is not re-elected, and ONLY a genuine grass roots supported movement for change, shall be lasting. "If you are to keep your father's wealth, you must earn it anew." Good luck fellow humans,

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Hey Cee Cee... Fix your bot
by Razer 20 Oct '16

20 Oct '16

This was dated the 16th and your bot finally got around to forwarding it through pglaf.org Return-Path: <cypherpunks-bounces(a)lists.cpunks.org> X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on spoonbill.riseup.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Pyzor: Reported 0 times. 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To: "hackerspaces-brasil(a)googlegroups.com" <hackerspaces-brasil(a)googlegroups.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1143ebc263c4ec053efee1ac X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 20 Oct 2016 08:35:04 -0700 X-BeenThere: cypherpunks(a)lists.cpunks.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.16 Precedence: list List-Id: The Cypherpunks Mailing List <cypherpunks.lists.cpunks.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.cpunks.org/mailman/options/cypherpunks>, <mailto:cypherpunks-request@lists.cpunks.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/> List-Post: <mailto:cypherpunks@lists.cpunks.org> List-Help: <mailto:cypherpunks-request@lists.cpunks.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.cpunks.org/mailman/listinfo/cypherpunks>, <mailto:cypherpunks-request@lists.cpunks.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: cypherpunks-bounces(a)lists.cpunks.org Sender: "cypherpunks" <cypherpunks-bounces(a)lists.cpunks.org> --001a1143ebc263c4ec053efee1ac Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Citizen applications for 'Asgardia' opened. Mirimir, John, let's try? The Earth is too mainstream for us, hahahaha!! ;D And, of course, it will be f-ck=C2=A1ng fun running the first hackerspace i= n the space, wohooo!!! ;D http://asgardia.space/citizenship http://airc.at/#1 https://www.rt.com/viral/362555-plans-first-space-nation/ Ceci, la la la... :D --001a1143ebc263c4ec053efee1ac Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Citizen applications for 'Asgardia' open= ed.=C2=A0 Mirimir, John, let's try?=C2=A0 The Earth is too mainstream f= or us, hahahaha!!=C2=A0 ;D And, of course, it will be f-ck=C2=A1ng fun runn= ing the first hackerspace in the space, wohooo!!!=C2=A0 ;D <a href=3D"http://asgardia.space/citizenship">ht= tp://asgardia.space/citizenship</a> <a href=3D"http://airc.at/#1">http://airc.at/#1<= /a> <a href=3D"https://www.rt.com/viral/362555-plans= -first-space-nation/">https://www.rt.com/viral/362555-plans-first-space-nat= ion/</a> Ceci, la la la...=C2=A0 :D --001a1143ebc263c4ec053efee1ac--

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Tor and Torsocks updates
by grarpamp 20 Oct '16

20 Oct '16

For people using tor... https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-0289-released-important-fixes https://lists.torproject.org/pipermail/tor-dev/2016-October/011579.html

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Re: Causing systemic change / achieving a lasting "win" - honest businessmen - gold and silver coin
by Zenaan Harkness 20 Oct '16

20 Oct '16

(Guessing you meant this to be on-list Steven.) It is likely (he had some number of employees) that he used lawyers. That was problem #1. Yes, problem #2, from what you say it appears he acted "double minded" in his accounting, vs his filings/ defence in the court. Double minded is a legal phrase, and one must be very careful to maintain a consistent position, as well as, and more importantly, a consistent jurisdiction. Failure to consistently stay in the jurisdiction of law ("sand pit") in which you can ultimately win your court case, is the primary failure arising from double mindedness. And, the courts imply jurisdiction based on the arguments, positions and evidence before the court. And in this case, the more obvious failure of double mindedness, by Kahre, is that he attempted to employ and pay people in constitutional jurisdiction, yet did so within a government created statutory corporation. The corporation is bound by the government's statute laws and corresponding fiction jurisdiction which includes the jurisdiction (i.e. and obligations) of and to the IRS. "You can't have your cake and eat it too." Don't go in to battle being double minded. On the other hand, if you are able to operate properly outside the government's fictional statutory jurisdictions (it's not hard, but it does require diligence), then it is entirely straightforward to operate your business (not statutory Corporation), entirely within the jurisdiction of Constitution. Disclaim this is common advice not legal advice the govt says you gotta get a lawyer and we all gotta tell each other we gotta get lawyers and if we say anything else we are engaging in legal practice and open to prosecution for engaging in legal practice and you can stay outside that evil jurisdiction but it does take quite a lot of reading and prolly some practice and don't quote me I am not a lawyer so go get your legal advice from a lawyer, plebe! :) Learning to, and playing in, jurisdictions that are outside of government fictions / statute law, is rivetting, exciting, liberating, scary, a whole new world, quite anarchic, and altogether provides a genuine experience of living. If you are timid, go back to bed now - you have been warned. On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 12:01:21AM -0700, Steven Schear wrote: > >From what I recall in reading the LV Review-Journal reporting, the major > legal mistake Kahre made was accounting for the gold in his books at both > the notional and market price. This enabled prosecutors to show he really > didn't value the gold coins at their denominated values when paying his > contractors, despite the clever use of such coins to file his court papers > (which the government accepted at their denominated value, and therefore > was guilty of fraud and tax evasion. > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 11:17 PM, Zenaan Harkness <zen(a)freedbms.net> wrote: > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2016 at 03:10:33AM -0300, juan wrote: > > > On Thu, 20 Oct 2016 16:39:27 +1100 > > > Zenaan Harkness <zen(a)freedbms.net> wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 07:44:42PM -0300, juan wrote: > > > > > This is what happens to honest businessmen in the US > > > > > https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2012/03/26/use- > > real-money-go-to-federal-prison/ > > > > > > > > Not only the USA. > > > > > > Moral of the story? A win/change by a lone individual will not last > > > > the next term of government where he is not re-elected, and ONLY a > > > > genuine grass roots supported movement for change, shall be lasting. > > > > > > > > > But he did get some popular support... > > > > No, he got support for the data/info gathering. > > > > Entirely different to political support for a systemic change. > > > > > > > Maybe the moral of the > > > story is that democracy is rather flawed. "If voting changed > > > anything they'd make it illegal" > > > > The Swiss failed to keep constitutional and therefore people control > > over their own money. > > > > But they did for some decades experience far greater political "control" > > than most other so-called democracies around the world. > > > > > > Also balk against "they" - far too defeatist, leads to disheartened > > apathy ("there's nothing we can do - 'they' will stop us"). Not useful.

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