February 2022 - cypherpunks - lists.cpunks.org

xNY.io - Bank.org | DOJ Memo #1
by Gunnar Larson 13 Sep '22

13 Sep '22

Mr. Marzulli: Memo #1 here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OsxfjN3TUepftKklopkQDSMwFWstWozuku4IPPu… Why on Earth should the Deferred Agreement be our problem. We expect DOJ guidance on this serious matter. I love you too, Gunnar -- *Gunnar Larson - xNY.io <http://www.xNY.io> | Bank.org <http://Bank.org>* MSc <https://www.unic.ac.cy/blockchain/msc-digital-currency/?utm_source=Google&u…> - Digital Currency MBA <https://www.unic.ac.cy/business-administration-entrepreneurship-and-innovat…> - Entrepreneurship and Innovation (ip) G(a)xNY.io +1-646-454-9107 New York, New York 10001

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Cypherpunks for open borders
by professor rat 04 Sep '22

04 Sep '22

This seems uncontroversial - open borders in the absence of a command economy and full-spectrum welfare ie national-healthcare-style state is decidedly pro-market, pro-freedom, and pro-peace. Certainly open-borders are as intrinsic to crypto-anarchism as diversity-of-tactics. That is certainly uncontroversial. It may be that some self-described cypherpunk might decide to advocate for border controls for some reason. The onus is then on them to prove their case. Such as in Jeff Berwick Vs John Galton However no crypto-anarchist will be caught dead arguing for nationalist borders; I promise youse.

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John McAfee dead by suicide after extradition approved by Spanish court.
by jim bell 26 Aug '22

26 Aug '22

There is an "opportunity cost" to NOT implementing my 'Assassination Politics' 1995 invention. http://jya.com/ap.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost?wprov=sfla1 How many tech people have been victimized by government in ways that would never have occurred had an AP-type system been functioning? Edward Snowden. Ross Ulbricht. Now John McAfee. Phil Zimmermann, author of PGP-1, was harassed for a few years. Even, dare I say, myself. The Internet has greatly changed the world in the last 25 years because people implemented ideas that hardly existed 30 years ago. Facebook, Twitter, Amazon, Google. Smartphones. TOR. Encrypted phones. Dark Markets. Why not AP? Why not implement the one thing that has a good chance of taking down every government on the face of the Earth? No wars, no militaries, no taxes, no governments. Are those goals any less important than any of the other advances technology has brought us? U.S. software mogul John McAfee dies by hanging in Spanish prison - lawyer says | | | | | | | | | | | U.S. software mogul John McAfee dies by hanging in Spanish prison - lawyer says U.S. technology entrepreneur John McAfee apparently hanged himself in his prison cell on Wednesday after the Spanish high court authorised his extradition to the United States, his lawyer told Reuters. | | | |

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Fwd: FOIL Request# 2022-089773 Acknowledgement FOIL-2022-089773-016386
by Gunnar Larson 24 Aug '22

24 Aug '22

A quick update related to the NYCCoin, STX and Miami Coin disaster: - See we are on a 20 business day timeline for answers from NY-DFS. - Same goes for the September 11, 2021 Board of Directors resignation from LendingClub.com. These questions have simple answers people already know. Kicking the can down the road really does New Yorkers a disservice. And, simply won't work. New York innovation is priceless. And protecting it from fondling seemingly has failed, in the case of NYCCoin. -- *Gunnar Larson - xNY.io <http://www.xny.io/> | Bank.org <http://bank.org/>* MSc <https://www.unic.ac.cy/blockchain/msc-digital-currency/?utm_source=Google&u…> - Digital Currency MBA <https://www.unic.ac.cy/business-administration-entrepreneurship-and-innovat…> - Entrepreneurship and Innovation (ip) G(a)xNY.io +1-646-454-9107 New York, New York 10001 ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: <Carmen.Garrett(a)dfs.ny.gov> Date: Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 11:17 AM Subject: FOIL Request# 2022-089773 Acknowledgement FOIL-2022-089773-016386 To: <g(a)xny.io> DEAR Gunnar Larsen: I write to acknowledge receipt of the FOIL request that you submitted to the New York State Department of Financial Services (DFS), which has been assigned the above referenced tracking number. This number should be the number that you refer to in all future communications with DFS. Your request has been referred to the appropriate DFS unit(s) to search for the records that are responsive to your request. The assigned unit(s) will contact you within 20 business days to (i) advise whether the unit has any records that are responsive to your request; (ii) grant or deny your request, if the unit has responsive records; or (iii) apprise you of the progress of your request, if the search or review of the records that you requested is still on-going. *As part of the ongoing response to the COVID-19 pandemic, some or all agency employees may be working off-site. As such, there may be delays in response to FOIL requests. If a record responsive to a request is only available in hard-copy format, that record’s availability will be limited until further notice. Thank you for your patience during this extraordinary time.* New York State Department of Financial Services If you are a New York State resident and would like to register to vote or update your address, you may complete and submit to your County Board of Elections a New York State Voter Registration Form which can be found at http://www.ny.gov/services/register-vote . Tracking Number:FOIL-2022-089773-016386

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NAACP National Board of Directors
by Gunnar Larson 06 Aug '22

06 Aug '22

PETER ROSEMember, NAACP National Board of Directors https://naacp.org/people/peter-rose Peter Rose is the Vice Chairman of Sard Verbinnen & Co., one of the leading strategic and crisis communications firms in the world. He is also a Senior Advisor to Blackstone, the world's largest alternative asset manager. From 2007 to 2016, he was a partner and global head of public affairs at Blackstone. There he was responsible for media relations and government relations, as well as communications to a broad range of public and other constituencies. Before joining Blackstone in 2007, Mr. Rose was at Goldman Sachs for 20 years. He was a lobbyist and political analyst in their Washington office and in 1996 moved to New York to open Goldman Sachs's first-ever media relations office as it began the transition from a private to a public company. In 1998 he moved to Asia to set up a corporate communications function for Goldman Sachs there, returning in 2003 to head the media relations function for the firm in the Americas. Before joining Goldman Sachs, he was Chief of Staff for Congressman Mike Synar (D Okla) and a partner with a Washington DC law firm. He is a member of the board of DMC Global, a NASDAQ-listed industrial holding company. He is also a member of the board of the Poetry Society of the United States. Mr. Rose has a BA from The George Washington University and received a JD from The Yale Law School. -- *Gunnar Larson - xNY.io <http://www.xny.io/> | Bank.org <http://bank.org/>* MSc <https://www.unic.ac.cy/blockchain/msc-digital-currency/?utm_source=Google&u…> - Digital Currency MBA <https://www.unic.ac.cy/business-administration-entrepreneurship-and-innovat…> - Entrepreneurship and Innovation (ip) G(a)xNY.io +1-646-454-9107 New York, New York 10001

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Re: Morning Spam
by Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many 01 Aug '22

01 Aug '22

Replies to this thread since Feb 2 haven't been reaching the list. Me and my email client have been sending them to myself privately, apparently by repeated accident. >

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Re: PLEASE LET ME SLEEP OUTDOORS
by Victim of Undiscussed Horrifically Abusive Brainwashing 31 Jul '22

31 Jul '22

Thanks for your reply. It's nice to hear from you and I am really sorry for disrupting your list and you. I saw that you support hackerspaces which is pretty cool. I'm still trying to figure out how to get on the hackerspaces.org mailing list, the times I tried I didn't get a reply from the listserv. Apologies for capitals I am in a very strange state of mind !! Do you understand this?: I USUALLY SLEEP OUTDOORS. MANY OVERWINTERED WITH ME DURING OCCUPY. Summary: I have lots of gear already, have engaged this situation ad nauseum, and love the ice and wind. I'm in a pretty limited dissociation atm but I expect to be able to get back out there! Your inspiring words help a ton !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But it's not your responsibility. If I don't go I may get hospitalized or ostractised for my email name which for now gives me impetus to keep trying. Note to self: You can sleep outdoors, Karl. In Northern Arctic Canada, everybody does this the whole winter while hunting nomadically. Some of them are computer programmers! The temperature right now is up near freezing so you'll be more than safe. I'm outdoors right now, come join me! On 12/28/21, wrote: > You can sleep outdoors. Be prepared, however, for varying weather > conditions. You can find many items that you need at REI or other > technical outfitters. > > Best of luck. > > On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 10:36 AM Karl <gmkarl(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I do not know what to do. I am not able to kill myself with any >> reasonable likelihood. >> >> I have spent my whole life focused around living outdoors with an idea of >> making everything right in a caring way. >> >> I need to be able to sleep outdoors to be Karl Semich. >> >> I need to be able to spend many days outdoors without going indoors, to >> sleep outdoors, with my current psychology. >> >> PLEASE LET ME SLEEP OUTDOORS. PLEASE LET ME WORK OUTDOORS. >> >> Thank you for any aid. >

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HACK !
by Gunnar Larson 23 Jul '22

23 Jul '22

If your computer is hacked, let's say that someone plays with your Bluetooth ... It is still a computer crime. The proper officials, if they knew, should advise of the intrusion, not let it play at the disadvantage of the subject computer. Now, I am not embarrassed. Sure, yes, I knew that this PC had been compromised, but overall, my approach has been that any machine I had during this experience would be a target. What I am getting at is, it is not cute to be a computer criminal. We are probably one of the handful of experts in computer crimes on Manhattan Island related to virtual currencies and the BitLicense. Furthermore, have you heard of Ripple? :) XOXO GDAPL PS: Stop fucking with the wifi connection. Obstruction of justice is illegal, let alone your tacky computer crimes on this machine. Not my problem. Oh! Have you heard of Ripple: https://thecapital.io/article/computer-crimes-and-the-bitlicense-nydfs-MUoH… PSS: Hey FBI, cyberstalking is a crime, right? Please reference the Computer Crimes Manual W/183 Highlights: https://thecapital.io/article/crypto-computer-crimes-manual-w183-highlights… PSSS: Literally, the machine being compromised is something Ben Edelman taught me back in the day when we worked together. Point being, that if a machine is compromised (like this one here) all other details of the compromise can be tracked. So, The fact that I am 100% transparent is a good thing for me, over the last while. But, it is always bad to be a computer criminal or worse a computer criminal in prison. Overall, this machine will go down in history and people will never forget that 10001 is one of the most special places on the great, beautiful planet Earth! Long live Brody. -- *Gunnar Larson - xNY.io <http://www.xNY.io> | Bank.org <http://Bank.org>* MSc <https://www.unic.ac.cy/blockchain/msc-digital-currency/?utm_source=Google&u…> - Digital Currency MBA <https://www.unic.ac.cy/business-administration-entrepreneurship-and-innovat…> - Entrepreneurship and Innovation (ip) G(a)xNY.io +1-646-454-9107 New York, New York 10001

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mind is quantum
by coderman 22 Jul '22

22 Jul '22

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind Quantum mind The quantum mind or quantum consciousness is a group of hypotheses proposing that [classical mechanics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_mechanics) cannot explain [consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness).[1](https://en.… It posits that [quantum-mechanical](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanical) phenomena, such as [entanglement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement) and [superposition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_superposition), may play an important part in the brain's function and could explain consciousness. The hypotheses assert that consciousness is somehow quantum-mechanical and can overlap with [quantum mysticism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mysticism), a [pseudoscientific](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience) movement that assigns supernatural characteristics to various quantum phenomena such as [nonlocality](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_nonlocality) and the [observer effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)).[2](https:… Contents - [1 History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#History) - [2 Approaches](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#Approaches) - [2.1 Bohm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#Bohm) - [2.2 Penrose and Hameroff](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#Penrose_and_Hameroff) - [2.3 Umezawa, Vitiello, Freeman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#Umezawa,_Vitiello,_Free… - [2.4 Pribram, Bohm, Kak](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#Pribram,_Bohm,_Kak) - [2.5 Stapp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#Stapp) - [2.6 David Pearce](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#David_Pearce) - [3 Criticism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#Criticism) - [3.1 Conceptual problems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#Conceptual_problems) - [3.2 Practical problems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#Practical_problems) - [3.3 Ethical problems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#Ethical_problems) - [4 See also](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#See_also) - [5 References](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#References) - [6 Further reading](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#Further_reading) - [7 External links](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#External_links) History [Eugene Wigner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Wigner) developed the idea that quantum mechanics has something to do with the workings of the mind. He proposed that the [wave function collapses](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function_collapse) due to its interaction with consciousness. [Freeman Dyson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_Dyson) argued that "mind, as manifested by the capacity to make choices, is to some extent inherent in every electron".[3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-3) Other contemporary physicists and philosophers considered these arguments unconvincing.[4](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-4) [Victor Stenger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Stenger) characterized quantum consciousness as a "myth" having "no scientific basis" that "should take its place along with gods, unicorns and dragons".[5](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-5) [David Chalmers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chalmers) argues against quantum consciousness. He instead discusses how [quantum mechanics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics) may relate to [dualistic consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_dualism).[6]… Chalmers is skeptical that any new physics can resolve the [hard problem of consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness)… Approaches Bohm [David Bohm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bohm) viewed [quantum theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics) and [relativity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_relativity) as contradictory, which implied a more fundamental level in the universe.[9](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Bohm1980-… He claimed that both quantum theory and relativity pointed to this deeper theory, which he formulated as a quantum field theory. This more fundamental level was proposed to represent an undivided wholeness and an [implicate order](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicate_order), from which arises the [explicate order](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explicate_order) of the universe as we experience it. Bohm's proposed order applies both to matter and consciousness. He suggested that it could explain the relationship between them. He saw mind and matter as projections into our explicate order from the underlying implicate order. Bohm claimed that when we look at matter, we see nothing that helps us to understand consciousness. Bohm discussed the experience of listening to music. He believed that the feeling of movement and change that make up our experience of music derive from holding the immediate past and the present in the brain together. The musical notes from the past are transformations rather than memories. The notes that were implicated in the immediate past become explicate in the present. Bohm viewed this as consciousness emerging from the implicate order. Bohm saw the movement, change or flow, and the coherence of experiences, such as listening to music, as a manifestation of the implicate order. He claimed to derive evidence for this from [Jean Piaget](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Piaget)'s work on infants.[10](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Piaget195… He held these studies to show that young children learn about time and space because they have a "hard-wired" understanding of movement as part of the implicate order. He compared this hard-wiring to [Chomsky's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky) theory that grammar is hard-wired into human brains. Bohm never proposed a specific means by which his proposal could be falsified, nor a neural mechanism through which his "implicate order" could emerge in a way relevant to consciousness.[9](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Bohm… He later collaborated on [Karl Pribram](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_H._Pribram)'s [holonomic brain theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holonomic_brain_theory) as a model of quantum consciousness.[11](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-11) According to philosopher [Paavo Pylkkänen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paavo_Pylkk%C3%A4nen), Bohm's suggestion "leads naturally to the assumption that the physical correlate of the [logical thinking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_thinking) process is at the classically describable level of the brain, while the basic thinking process is at the quantum-theoretically describable level".[12](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-12) Penrose and Hameroff Main article: [Orchestrated objective reduction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction) Theoretical physicist [Roger Penrose](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Penrose) and [anaesthesiologist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaesthesiologist) [Stuart Hameroff](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Hameroff) collaborated to produce the theory known as "[orchestrated objective reduction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduction)" (Orch-OR). Penrose and Hameroff initially developed their ideas separately and later collaborated to produce Orch-OR in the early 1990s. They reviewed and updated their theory in 2013.[13](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-13)[14](http… Penrose's argument stemmed from [Gödel's incompleteness theorems](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theor…. In his first book on consciousness, [The Emperor's New Mind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Mind) (1989),[15](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Emperor-15) he argued that while a formal system cannot prove its own consistency, Gödel's unprovable results are provable by human mathematicians.[16](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Go… Penrose took this to mean that human mathematicians are not formal proof systems and not running a computable algorithm. According to Bringsjord and Xiao, this line of reasoning is based on fallacious [equivocation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation) on the meaning of computation.[17](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-17) In the same book, Penrose wrote: "One might speculate, however, that somewhere deep in the brain, cells are to be found of single quantum sensitivity. If this proves to be the case, then quantum mechanics will be significantly involved in brain activity."[15](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Emperor-15): 400 Penrose determined that [wave function collapse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_function_collapse) was the only possible physical basis for a non-computable process. Dissatisfied with its randomness, he proposed a new form of wave function collapse that occurs in isolation and called it objective reduction. He suggested each quantum superposition has its own piece of spacetime curvature and that when these become separated by more than one [Planck length](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_length), they become unstable and collapse.[18](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-emperorn… Penrose suggested that objective reduction represents neither randomness nor algorithmic processing but instead a non-computable influence in [spacetime](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime) geometry from which mathematical understanding and, by later extension, consciousness derives.[18](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-emperorne… Hameroff provided a hypothesis that [microtubules](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtubule) would be suitable hosts for quantum behavior.[19](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-19) Microtubules are composed of [tubulin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubulin) [protein dimer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_dimer) subunits. The dimers each have [hydrophobic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrophobic) pockets that are 8 nm apart and may contain delocalized [π electrons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A0_electrons). Tubulins have other smaller non-polar regions that contain π-electron-rich [indole](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indole) rings separated by about 2 nm. Hameroff proposed that these electrons are close enough to become entangled.[20](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Hamerof… He originally suggested that the tubulin-subunit electrons would form a [Bose–Einstein condensate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose%E2%80%93Einstein_condensate), but this was discredited.[21](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Penro… He then proposed a Frohlich condensate, a hypothetical coherent oscillation of dipolar molecules, but this too was experimentally discredited.[22](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-22) Orch-OR has made numerous false biological predictions and is not an accepted model of brain physiology.[23](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-23) In other words, there is a missing link between physics and neuroscience.[24](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-24) For instance, the proposed predominance of A-lattice microtubules, more suitable for information processing, was falsified by Kikkawa et al.,[25](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Kikkawa1994-2… who showed that all in vivo microtubules have a B lattice and a seam. The proposed existence of gap junctions between neurons and [glial cells](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroglia) was also falsified.[27](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Binmoll… Orch-OR predicted that microtubule coherence reaches the synapses through dendritic lamellar bodies (DLBs), but De Zeeuw et al. proved this impossible[28](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-DeZeeuw… by showing that DLBs are micrometers away from gap junctions.[29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-29) In 2014, Hameroff and Penrose claimed that the discovery of quantum vibrations in microtubules by Anirban Bandyopadhyay of the [National Institute for Materials Science](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institute_for_Materials_Sci… in Japan in March 2013[30](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-30) corroborates Orch-OR theory.[14](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-elsevier-1… Although these theories are stated in a scientific framework, it is difficult to separate them from scientists' personal opinions. The opinions are often based on intuition or subjective ideas about the nature of consciousness. For example, Penrose wrote:[32](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-32) > [M]y own point of view asserts that you can't even simulate conscious activity. What's going on in conscious thinking is something you couldn't properly imitate at all by computer.... If something behaves as though it's conscious, do you say it is conscious? People argue endlessly about that. Some people would say, "Well, you've got to take the operational viewpoint; we don't know what consciousness is. How do you judge whether a person is conscious or not? Only by the way they act. You apply the same criterion to a computer or a computer-controlled robot." Other people would say, "No, you can't say it feels something merely because it behaves as though it feels something." My view is different from both those views. The robot wouldn't even behave convincingly as though it was conscious unless it really was—which I say it couldn't be, if it's entirely computationally controlled. Penrose continues:[33](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Penrose… > A lot of what the brain does you could do on a computer. I'm not saying that all the brain's action is completely different from what you do on a computer. I am claiming that the actions of consciousness are something different. I'm not saying that consciousness is beyond physics, either—although I'm saying that it's beyond the physics we know now.... My claim is that there has to be something in physics that we don't yet understand, which is very important, and which is of a noncomputational character. It's not specific to our brains; it's out there, in the physical world. But it usually plays a totally insignificant role. It would have to be in the bridge between quantum and classical levels of behavior—that is, where quantum measurement comes in. [W. Daniel Hillis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Daniel_Hillis) responded: "Penrose has committed the classical mistake of putting humans at the center of the universe. His argument is essentially that he can't imagine how the mind could be as complicated as it is without having some magic elixir brought in from some new principle of physics, so therefore it must involve that. It's a failure of Penrose's imagination.... It's true that there are unexplainable, uncomputable things, but there's no reason whatsoever to believe that the complex behavior we see in humans is in any way related to uncomputable, unexplainable things."[33](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Penroseedge-33) Lawrence Krauss is also blunt in criticizing Penrose's ideas. He has said: "Roger Penrose has given lots of new-age crackpots ammunition by suggesting that at some fundamental scale, quantum mechanics might be relevant for consciousness. When you hear the term 'quantum consciousness', you should be suspicious.... Many people are dubious that Penrose's suggestions are reasonable, because the brain is not an isolated quantum-mechanical system."[2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Krauss-2) Umezawa, Vitiello, Freeman [Hiroomi Umezawa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroomi_Umezawa) and collaborators proposed a quantum field theory of memory storage.[34](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-34)[35](h… Giuseppe Vitiello and [Walter Freeman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Jackson_Freeman_III) proposed a dialog model of the mind. This dialog takes place between the classical and the quantum parts of the brain.[36](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-36)[37](htt… Their quantum field theory models of [brain dynamics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_brain_dynamics) are fundamentally different from the Penrose–Hameroff theory. Pribram, Bohm, Kak [Karl Pribram](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_H._Pribram)'s [holonomic brain theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holonomic_brain_theory) (quantum holography) invoked quantum mechanics to explain higher-order processing by the mind.[39](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-39)[40](http… He argued that his holonomic model solved the [binding problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binding_problem).[41](https://en.wik… Pribram collaborated with Bohm in his work on quantum approaches to mind and he provided evidence on how much of the processing in the brain was done in wholes.[42](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-42) He proposed that ordered water at [dendritic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrite) membrane surfaces might operate by structuring Bose–Einstein condensation supporting quantum dynamics.[43](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-43) Stapp [Henry Stapp](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Stapp) proposed that quantum waves are reduced only when they interact with consciousness. He argues from the orthodox quantum mechanics of [John von Neumann](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_von_Neumann)[[clarify](https://…] that the quantum state collapses when the observer selects one among the alternative quantum possibilities as a basis for future action. The collapse, therefore, takes place in the expectation that the observer associated with the state. Stapp's work drew criticism from scientists such as David Bourget and Danko Georgiev.[44](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Bourget-… Georgiev[45](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Georgiev2… criticized Stapp's model in two respects: - Stapp's mind does not have its own [wavefunction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavefunction) or [density matrix](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density_matrix), but nevertheless can act upon the brain using [projection operators](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projection_(linear_algebra)). Such usage is not compatible with standard quantum mechanics because one can attach any number of ghostly minds to any point in space that act upon physical quantum systems with any projection operators. Stapp's model therefore negates "the prevailing principles of physics".[45](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Georgiev2012-45) - Stapp's claim that [quantum Zeno effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_Zeno_effect) is robust against environmental decoherence directly contradicts a basic theorem in [quantum information theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_information_theory): that acting with projection operators upon the density matrix of a quantum system can only increase the system's [von Neumann entropy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_entropy).[45](https://en… Stapp has responded to both of Georgiev's objections.[[specify](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_source… David Pearce British philosopher [David Pearce](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Pearce_(philosopher)) defends what he calls physicalistic idealism ("the non-materialist physicalist claim that reality is fundamentally experiential and that the natural world is exhaustively described by the equations of physics and their solutions") and has conjectured that unitary conscious minds are physical states of [quantum coherence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_coherence) (neuronal superpositions).[50](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-5…) This conjecture is, according to Pearce, amenable to falsification, unlike most theories of consciousness, and Pearce has outlined an experimental protocol describing how the hypothesis could be tested using [matter-wave interferometry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferometry) to detect [nonclassical interference patterns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_interference) of [neuronal superpositions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_superposition) at the onset of [thermal decoherence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_decoherence).[54](https:… Pearce admits that his ideas are "highly speculative", "counterintuitive", and "incredible".[52](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Pearcevideo-52) Criticism These hypotheses of the quantum mind remain hypothetical speculation, as Penrose and Pearce admit in their discussions. Until they make a prediction that is tested by experimentation, the hypotheses aren't based on empirical evidence. According to Krauss, "It is true that quantum mechanics is extremely strange, and on extremely small scales for short times, all sorts of weird things happen. And in fact, we can make weird quantum phenomena happen. But what quantum mechanics doesn't change about the universe is, if you want to change things, you still have to do something. You can't change the world by thinking about it."[2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Krauss-2) The process of testing the hypotheses with experiments is fraught with conceptual/theoretical, practical, and ethical problems. Conceptual problems The idea that a quantum effect is necessary for consciousness to function is still in the realm of philosophy. Penrose proposes that it is necessary, but other theories of consciousness do not indicate that it is needed. For example, [Daniel Dennett](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dennett) proposed a theory called [multiple drafts model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_drafts_model), which doesn't indicate that quantum effects are needed, in his 1991 book [Consciousness Explained](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_Explained).[55](http… A philosophical argument on either side isn't scientific proof, although philosophical analysis can indicate key differences in the types of models and show what type of experimental differences might be observed. But since there isn't a clear consensus among philosophers, it isn't conceptual support that a quantum mind theory is needed. There are computers that are specifically designed to compute using quantum-mechanical effects. [Quantum computing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computing) is [computing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computation) using [quantum-mechanical](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics) [phenomena](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomena), such as [superposition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_superposition) and [entanglement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement).[56](http… They are different from [binary](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_number) [digital electronic computers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_electronic_computer) based on [transistors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor). Whereas common digital computing requires that the data be encoded into binary digits ([bits](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit)) each of which is always in one of two definite states (0 or 1), quantum computation uses [quantum bits](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qubit), which can be in [superpositions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_superposition) of states. One of the greatest challenges is controlling or removing [quantum decoherence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_decoherence). This usually means isolating the system from its environment, as interactions with the external world cause the system to decohere. Some quantum computers require their qubits to be cooled to 20 millikelvins in order to prevent significant decoherence.[57](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-57) As a result, time-consuming tasks may render some quantum algorithms inoperable, as maintaining the state of qubits long enough eventually corrupts the superpositions.[58](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-58) There aren't any obvious analogies between the functioning of quantum computers and the human brain. Some hypothetical models of quantum mind have proposed mechanisms for maintaining quantum coherence in the brain, but they have not been shown to operate. [Quantum entanglement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement) is a physical phenomenon often invoked for quantum mind models. This effect occurs when pairs or groups of [particles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle) interact so that the [quantum state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_state) of each particle cannot be described independently of the other(s), even when the particles are separated by a large distance. Instead, a quantum state has to be described for the whole system. [Measurements](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement#Quantum_mechanics) of physical properties such as [position](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Position_(vector)), [momentum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum), [spin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin_(physics)), and [polarization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarization_(waves)), performed on entangled particles are found to be [correlated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation). If one particle is measured, the same property of the other particle immediately adjusts to maintain the conservation of the physical phenomenon. According to the formalism of quantum theory, the effect of measurement happens instantly, no matter how far apart the particles are.[59](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-59)[60](https… It is not possible to use this effect to transmit classical information at faster-than-light speeds[61](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-61) (see [Faster-than-light § Quantum mechanics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light#Quantum_mechanic…) Entanglement is broken when the entangled particles [decohere](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_decoherence) through interaction with the environment—for example, when a measurement is made[62](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Peres1993-62) or the particles undergo random collisions or interactions. According to Pearce, "In neuronal networks, ion–ion scattering, ion–water collisions, and long-range Coulomb interactions from nearby ions all contribute to rapid decoherence times; but thermally induced decoherence is even harder experimentally to control than collisional decoherence." He anticipated that quantum effects would have to be measured in femtoseconds, a trillion times faster than the rate at which neurons function (milliseconds).[54](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Pea…) Another possible conceptual approach is to use quantum mechanics as an analogy to understand a different field of study like consciousness, without expecting that the laws of quantum physics will apply. An example of this approach is the idea of [Schrödinger's cat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat). [Erwin Schrödinger](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Schr%C3%B6dinger) described how one could, in principle, create entanglement of a large-scale system by making it dependent on an elementary particle in a superposition. He proposed a scenario with a cat in a locked steel chamber, wherein the cat's survival depended on the state of a [radioactive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_decay) atom—whether it had decayed and emitted radiation. According to Schrödinger, the Copenhagen interpretation implies that the cat is both alive and dead until the state has been observed. Schrödinger did not wish to promote the idea of dead-and-alive cats as a serious possibility; he intended the example to illustrate the absurdity of the existing view of quantum mechanics.[63](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Schrodi… But since Schrödinger's time, physicists have given other [interpretations of the mathematics of quantum mechanics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpretations_of_quantum_mechani…, some of which regard the "alive and dead" cat superposition as quite real.[64](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Polkinghorne… Schrödinger's famous [thought experiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment) poses the question, "when does a quantum system stop existing as a superposition of states and become one or the other?" In the same way, one can ask whether the act of making a decision is analogous to having a superposition of states of two decision outcomes, so that making a decision means "opening the box" to reduce the brain from a combination of states to one state. This analogy about decision-making uses a formalism derived from quantum mechanics, but doesn't indicate the actual mechanism by which the decision is made. In this way, the idea is similar to [quantum cognition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_cognition). This field clearly distinguishes itself from the quantum mind, as it is not reliant on the hypothesis that there is something micro-physical quantum-mechanical about the brain. Quantum cognition is based on the quantum-like paradigm,[66](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-66)[67](… generalized quantum paradigm,[68](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-68) or quantum structure paradigm[69](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-69) that information processing by complex systems such as the brain can be mathematically described in the framework of quantum information and quantum probability theory. This model uses quantum mechanics only as an analogy, but doesn't propose that quantum mechanics is the physical mechanism by which it operates. For example, quantum cognition proposes that some decisions can be analyzed as if there is interference between two alternatives, but it is not a physical quantum interference effect. Practical problems The demonstration of a quantum-mind effect by experiment is necessary. Is there a way to show that consciousness is impossible without a quantum effect? Can a sufficiently complex digital, non-quantum computer be shown to be incapable of consciousness? Perhaps a quantum computer will show that quantum effects are needed. In any case, complex computers that are either digital or quantum computers may be built. These could demonstrate which type of computer is capable of conscious, intentional thought. But they don't exist yet, and no experimental test has been demonstrated. Quantum mechanics is a mathematical model that can provide some extremely accurate numerical predictions. [Richard Feynman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman) called quantum electrodynamics, based on the quantum-mechanics formalism, "the jewel of physics" for its [extremely accurate predictions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precision_tests_of_QED) of quantities like the [anomalous magnetic moment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomalous_magnetic_moment) of the electron and the [Lamb shift](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamb_shift) of the [energy levels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_level) of [hydrogen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen).[70](https://en.wikipedia…: Ch. 1 So it is not impossible that the model could provide an accurate prediction about consciousness that would confirm that a quantum effect is involved. If the mind depends on quantum mechanical effects, the true proof is to find an experiment that provides a calculation that can be compared to experimental measurement. It has to show a measurable difference between a classical computation result in a brain and one that involves quantum effects. The main theoretical argument against the quantum-mind hypothesis is the assertion that quantum states in the brain would lose coherency before they reached a scale where they could be useful for neural processing. This supposition was elaborated by [Max Tegmark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Tegmark). His calculations indicate that quantum systems in the brain decohere at sub-picosecond timescales.[71](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Tegmar… No response by a brain has shown computational results or reactions on this fast of a timescale. Typical reactions are on the order of milliseconds, trillions of times longer than sub-picosecond timescales.[73](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-73) Daniel Dennett uses an experimental result in support of his [multiple drafts model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_drafts_model) of [an optical illusion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_phi_phenomenon) that happens on a time scale of less than a second or so. In this experiment, two different-colored lights, with an angular separation of a few degrees at the eye, are flashed in succession. If the interval between the flashes is less than a second or so, the first light that is flashed appears to move across to the position of the second light. Furthermore, the light seems to change color as it moves across the visual field. A green light will appear to turn red as it seems to move across to the position of a red light. Dennett asks how we could see the light change color before the second light is observed.[55](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-dennett1… Velmans argues that the [cutaneous rabbit illusion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutaneous_rabbit_illusion), another illusion that happens in about a second, demonstrates that there is a delay while modelling occurs in the brain and that this delay was discovered by [Libet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet).[74](https://en.wikipe… These slow illusions that happen at times of less than a second don't support a proposal that the brain functions on the picosecond time scale. According to David Pearce, a demonstration of picosecond effects is "the fiendishly hard part – feasible in principle, but an experimental challenge still beyond the reach of contemporary molecular matter-wave interferometry. [...] The conjecture predicts that we'll discover the interference signature of sub-femtosecond macro-superpositions."[54](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Pearce-54) Penrose says:[33](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Penroseedge-… > The problem with trying to use quantum mechanics in the action of the brain is that if it were a matter of quantum nerve signals, these nerve signals would disturb the rest of the material in the brain, to the extent that the quantum coherence would get lost very quickly. You couldn't even attempt to build a quantum computer out of ordinary nerve signals, because they're just too big and in an environment that's too disorganized. Ordinary nerve signals have to be treated classically. But if you go down to the level of the microtubules, then there's an extremely good chance that you can get quantum-level activity inside them. > > For my picture, I need this quantum-level activity in the microtubules; the activity has to be a large-scale thing that goes not just from one microtubule to the next but from one nerve cell to the next, across large areas of the brain. We need some kind of coherent activity of a quantum nature which is weakly coupled to the computational activity that Hameroff argues is taking place along the microtubules. > > There are various avenues of attack. One is directly on the physics, on quantum theory, and there are certain experiments that people are beginning to perform, and various schemes for a modification of quantum mechanics. I don't think the experiments are sensitive enough yet to test many of these specific ideas. One could imagine experiments that might test these things, but they'd be very hard to perform. A demonstration of a quantum effect in the brain has to explain this problem or explain why it is not relevant, or that the brain somehow circumvents the problem of the loss of quantum coherency at body temperature. As Penrose proposes, it may require a new type of physical theory. Ethical problems According to Lawrence Krauss, "You should be wary whenever you hear something like 'Quantum mechanics connects you with the universe' ... or 'quantum mechanics unifies you with everything else'. You can begin to be skeptical that the speaker is somehow trying to use quantum mechanics to argue fundamentally that you can change the world by thinking about it."[2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Krauss-2) A subjective feeling is not sufficient to make this determination. Humans don't have a reliable subjective feeling for how we do a lot of functions. According to Daniel Dennett, "On this topic, Everybody's an expert... but they think that they have a particular personal authority about the nature of their own conscious experiences that can trump any hypothesis they find unacceptable."[75](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-75) Since humans are the only animals that can verbally communicate their conscious experience, performing experiments to demonstrate quantum effects in consciousness requires experimentation on a living human brain.[[citation needed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] This is not automatically excluded or impossible, but it seriously limits the kinds of experiments that can be done. Studies of the ethics of brain studies are being actively solicited[76](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-76) by the [BRAIN Initiative](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRAIN_Initiative), a U.S. Federal Government funded effort to document the connections of neurons in the brain. An ethically objectionable practice by proponents of quantum mind theories involves the practice of using quantum-mechanical terms in an effort to make the argument sound more impressive, even when they know that those terms are irrelevant. Dale DeBakcsy notes that "trendy parapsychologists, academic relativists, and even the [Dalai Lama](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalai_Lama) have all taken their turn at robbing modern physics of a few well-sounding phrases and stretching them far beyond their original scope in order to add scientific weight to various pet theories".[77](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-77) At the very least, these proponents must make a clear statement about whether quantum formalism is being used as an analogy or as an actual physical mechanism, and what evidence they are using for support. An ethical statement by a researcher should specify what kind of relationship their hypothesis has to the physical laws. Misleading statements of this type have been given by, for example, [Deepak Chopra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepak_Chopra). Chopra has commonly referred to topics such as [quantum healing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_healing) or quantum effects of consciousness. Seeing the human body as being undergirded by a "quantum-mechanical body" composed not of matter but of energy and information, he believes that "human aging is fluid and changeable; it can speed up, slow down, stop for a time, and even reverse itself", as determined by one's state of mind.[78](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-ageless-78) [Robert Carroll](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Todd_Carroll) states that Chopra attempts to integrate [Ayurveda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda) with quantum mechanics to justify his teachings.[79](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-skepdic… Chopra argues that what he calls "quantum healing" cures any manner of ailments, including cancer, through effects that he claims are literally based on the same principles as quantum mechanics.[80](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-AshmanB… This has led physicists to object to his use of the term quantum in reference to medical conditions and the human body.[80](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-AshmanBarrin… Chopra said: "I think quantum theory has a lot of things to say about the [observer effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)), about non-locality, about correlations. So I think there’s a school of physicists who believe that consciousness has to be equated, or at least brought into the equation, in understanding quantum mechanics."[81](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-dawkins1-81) On the other hand, he also claims that "[quantum effects are] just a metaphor. Just like an electron or a photon is an indivisible unit of information and energy, a thought is an indivisible unit of consciousness."[81](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-dawkins1-81) In his book Quantum Healing, Chopra stated the conclusion that [quantum entanglement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement) links everything in the Universe, and therefore it must create consciousness.[82](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-dne… In either case, the references to the word "quantum" don't mean what a physicist would claim, and arguments that use the word "quantum" shouldn't be taken as scientifically proven. Chris Carter includes statements in his book Science and Psychic Phenomena[83](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-83) of quotes from quantum physicists in support of psychic phenomena. In a review of the book, Benjamin Radford wrote that Carter used such references to "quantum physics, which he knows nothing about and which he (and people like Deepak Chopra) love to cite and reference because it sounds mysterious and paranormal.... Real, actual physicists I've spoken to break out laughing at this crap.... If Carter wishes to posit that quantum physics provides a plausible mechanism for psi, then it is his responsibility to show that, and he clearly fails to do so."[84](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-84) Sharon Hill has studied amateur paranormal research groups, and these groups like to use "vague and confusing language: ghosts 'use energy', are made up of 'magnetic fields', or are associated with a 'quantum state'".[85](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-85)[86](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-86) Statements like these about quantum mechanics indicate a temptation to misinterpret technical, mathematical terms like entanglement in terms of mystical feelings. This approach can be interpreted as a kind of [scientism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism), using the language and authority of science when the scientific concepts don't apply. Perhaps the final question is, what difference does it make if quantum effects are involved in computations in the brain? It is already known that quantum mechanics plays a role in the brain since quantum mechanics determines the shapes and properties of molecules like [neurotransmitters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotransmitters) and [proteins](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proteins), and these molecules affect how the brain works. This is the reason that drugs such as [morphine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphine) affect consciousness. As Daniel Dennett said, "quantum effects are there in your car, your watch, and your computer. But most things — most macroscopic objects — are, as it were, oblivious to quantum effects. They don't amplify them; they don't hinge on them."[33](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Penroseedge-33) Lawrence Krauss said: "We're also connected to the universe by gravity, and we're connected to the planets by gravity. But that doesn't mean that astrology is true.... Often, people who are trying to sell whatever it is they're trying to sell try to justify it on the basis of science. Everyone knows quantum mechanics is weird, so why not use that to justify it? ... I don't know how many times I've heard people say, 'Oh, I love quantum mechanics because I'm really into meditation, or I love the spiritual benefits that it brings me.' But quantum mechanics, for better or worse, doesn't bring any more spiritual benefits than gravity does."[2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#cite_note-Krauss-2) See also - [Artificial consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_consciousness) - [Bohm interpretation of quantum mechanics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohm_interpretation) - [Coincidence detection in neurobiology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coincidence_detection_in_neurob… - [Electromagnetic theories of consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_theories_of_co… - [Evolutionary neuroscience](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_neuroscience) - [Many-minds interpretation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-minds_interpretation) - [Hameroff-Penrose Orchestrated Objective Reduction](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orch-OR) - [Hard problem of consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness) - [Holonomic brain theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holonomic_brain_theory) - [Mechanism (philosophy)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanism_(philosophy)) - [Quantum cognition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_cognition) - [Quantum neural network](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_neural_network) References - - ["Quantum Approaches to Consciousness"](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-consciousness/). Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. May 19, 2011 [First published Tue Nov 30, 2004]. - - Boyle, Alan. ["How to Spot Quantum Quackery"](https://www.nbcnews.com/science/how-spot-quantum-quackery-6c10403763). NBC News Science News. Retrieved 8 Mar 2018. - - [Dyson, Freeman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_Dyson) (2004). Infinite in All Directions: Gifford Lectures Given at Aberdeen, Scotland April–November 1985 (1st Perennial ed.). New York: Perennial. p. 297. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [0060728892](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0060728892). - - [Searle, John R.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Searle) (1997). [The Mystery of Consciousness](https://archive.org/details/mysteryconscious00sear) (1st ed.). New York: New York Review of Books. pp. [53](https://archive.org/details/mysteryconscious00sear/page/n69)–88. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [9780940322066](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780940322…. - - [Stenger, Victor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_J_Stenger). [The Myth of Quantum Consciousness](http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Quantum/QuantumC… (PDF). The Humanist. 53, No. 3 (May–June 1992). pp. 13–15. - - Stephen P. Stich; Ted A. Warfield (15 April 2008). [The Blackwell Guide to Philosophy of Mind](https://books.google.com/books?id=NEGK_ZStddkC&q=dualistic+consciousn…. Blackwell Philosophy Guides. John Wiley & Sons. p. 126. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [9780470998755](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780470998…. - - [David J. Chalmers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chalmers) (1995). ["Facing Up to the Problem of Consciousness"](http://consc.net/papers/facing.html). Journal of Consciousness Studies. 2 (3): 200–219. - - Chalmers, David J. (1997). The Conscious Mind: In Search of a Fundamental Theory (Paperback ed.). New York: Oxford University Press. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [978-0-19-511789-9](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-…. - - [Bohm, David](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bohm) (2002). Wholeness and the Implicate Order (Online-Ausg. ed.). Hoboken: Routledge. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [0203995155](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0203995155). - - Piaget, Jean (1997). Jean Piaget: selected works. (The Origin of Intelligence in the Child) (Repr. ed.). London: Routledge. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [9780415168861](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780415168…. - - Wade, Jenny (1996). Changes of Mind: A Holonomic Theory of the Evolution of Consciousness. Albany: State Univ. of New York Press. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [9780791428498](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780791428…. - - Paavo Pylkkänen. ["Can quantum analogies help us to understand the process of thought?"](http://philpapers.org/archive/PYLCQA.1.pdf) (PDF). Mind & Matter. 12 (1): 61–91 [75]. - - ["Discovery of quantum vibrations in 'microtubules' inside brain neurons supports controversial theory of consciousness"](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116085105.htm). ScienceDaily. 2014-01-16. Retrieved 2017-12-28. - - ["Discovery of Quantum Vibrations in "Microtubules" Inside Brain Neurons Corroborates Controversial 20-Year-Old Theory of Consciousness"](http://www.elsevier.com/about/press-releases/research-and-journals/discovery-of-quantum-vibrations-in-microtubules-inside-brain-neurons-corroborates-controversial-20-year-old-theory-of-consciousness). Elsevier. 2014-01-16. Retrieved 2017-12-28. - - Penrose, Roger (1989). [The Emperor's New Mind](https://archive.org/details/emperorsnewmind00roge). New York, NY: Penguin Books. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [0-14-01-4534-6](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-14-01-4…. - - Gödel, Kurt (1992). On Formally Undecidable Propositions of Principia Mathematica and Related Systems (Reprint ed.). New York: Dover Publications. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [0486669807](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0486669807). - - Bringsjord, S. and Xiao, H. 2000. [A Refutation of Penrose's Gödelian Case Against Artificial Intelligence](http://kryten.mm.rpi.edu/refute.penrose.pdf). [Journal of Experimental and Theoretical Artificial Intelligence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journal_of_Experimental_and_The…. - - Penrose, Roger (1999). [The Emperor's New Mind: Concerning Computers, Minds, and the Laws of Physics](https://archive.org/details/emperorsnewmindc1999penr) (New ed.). 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["Speedy Science: How fast can you react?"](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bring-science-home-reaction-time/). Scientific American. Retrieved 18 Feb 2018. - - Velmans, M. (1992). "Is Consciousness Integrated?". Behavioral and Brain Sciences. 15 (2): 229–230. [doi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doi_(identifier)):[10.1017/s0140525x0006…. (Commentary on Dennett & Kinsbourne "Time and the observer", BBS, 1992, 15(2): 183–201.) - - Dennett, Daniel (Feb 2017). From Bacteria to Bach and Back: The Evolution of Minds (1st ed.). New York: W. W. Norton and Company. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [978-0393242072](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-03932…. - - BRAIN Initiative. ["BRAIN Initiative: Research on the Ethical Implications of Advancements in Neurotechnology and Brain Science (R01)"](https://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/rfa-files/RFA-MH-17-260.html). Retrieved 4 Feb 2018. - - DeBakcsy, Dale (May 2014). 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After the Science Wars: Science and the Study of Science. Routledge. pp. 137–. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [978-1-134-61618-3](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-1-…. - - Chopra, Deepak (2013-06-19). ["Richard Dawkins Plays God: The Video (Updated)"](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-chopra/richard-dawkins-plays-god_b_3467484.html). Huffington Post. Retrieved 5 Mar 2018. - - O'Neill, Ian (May 26, 2011). ["Does Quantum Theory Explain Consciousness?"](http://news.discovery.com/space/does-quantum-theory-explain-consciousness-110526.htm). Discovery News. Discovery Communications, LLC. Retrieved August 11, 2014. - - Carter, Chris (2012). Science and Psychic Phenomena: The Fall of the House of Skeptics. Inner Traditions Press. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [978-1594774515](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-15947…. - - Radford, Benjamin (Mar 2014). "The House of Skeptics Serves Psi (and Crow)". Skeptical Inquirer. 37 (2): 60–62. - - Hill, Sharon (Mar 2012). ["Amateur Paranormal Research and Investigation Groups Doing 'Sciencey' Things"](https://www.csicop.org/si/show/amateur_paranormal_research_and_investigation_groups_doing_sciencey_things). Skeptical Inquirer. 36 (2): 38–41. - - Hill, Sharon. ["Scientifical Americans: Paranormal Researchers and the Public Understanding of Science"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hgmTl12isA). YouTube.com. Retrieved 17 Feb 2018. Further reading - Flanagan, Brian J. (2003). ["Are perceptual fields quantum fields?"](http://wordassociation1.net/FieldWork.html). NeuroQuantology. 1 (3): 334–364. [doi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doi_(identifier)):[10.14704/nq.2003.1.3.…. - Georgiev, Danko D. (2017). [Quantum Information and Consciousness: A Gentle Introduction](https://books.google.com/books?id=OtRBDwAAQBAJ). Boca Raton: CRC Press. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [9781138104488](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9781138104…. [OCLC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OCLC_(identifier)) [1003273264](https://www.worldcat.org/oclc/1003273264). - Hodgson, David (1993). [The Mind Matters: Consciousness and Choice in a Quantum World](https://books.google.com/books?id=wrvAQgAACAAJ). Clarendon Press. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [978-0-19-824068-6](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-0-…. - Koch, Christof; Hepp, Klaus (2006). ["Quantum mechanics in the brain"](https://doi.org/10.1038%2F440611a). Nature. 440 (7084): 611–612. [Bibcode](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibcode_(identifier)):[2006Natur.440…. [doi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doi_(identifier)):[10.1038/440611a](http…. [PMID](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMID_(identifier)) [16572152](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16572152). [S2CID](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S2CID_(identifier)) [5085015](https://api.semanticscholar.org/CorpusID:5085015). - Litt, Abninder; Eliasmith, Chris; Kroon, Frederick W.; Weinstein, Steven; Thagard, Paul (2006). ["Is the brain a quantum computer?"](http://watarts.uwaterloo.ca/~celiasmi/Papers/litt%20et%20al.2006.quantum%20brain.cogsci.pdf) (PDF). Cognitive Science. 30 (3): 593–603. [doi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doi_(identifier)):[10.1207/s15516709cog0…. [PMID](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PMID_(identifier)) [21702826](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21702826). - [Lockwood, Michael](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Lockwood_(philosopher)) (1995). [Mind, Brain, and the Quantum: The Compound 'I'](https://books.google.com/books?id=wUducgAACAAJ). Basil Blackwell. - [McFadden, Johnjoe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnjoe_McFadden) (2000) [Quantum Evolution](http://www.surrey.ac.uk/qe/quantumevolution.htm) HarperCollins. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [0-00-255948-X](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-00-25594…; [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [0-00-655128-9](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0-00-65512… . Final chapter on the quantum mind. - Rosenblum, Bruce; Kuttner, Fred (2011). [Quantum Enigma: Physics Encounters Consciousness](http://quantumenigma.com/) (2nd ed.). Oxford University Press. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [9780199753819](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/9780199753…. - [Schrödinger, Erwin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Schr%C3%B6dinger) (2012). [What is Life?: With Mind and Matter and Autobiographical Sketches](https://archive.org/download/WhatIsLife_201708/What%20is%20Life.p… (PDF). Canto Classics. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. [ISBN](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISBN_(identifier)) [978-1107604667](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/978-11076…. - [Weyl, Hermann](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Weyl) (1934). [Mind and Nature](https://books.google.com/books?id=Sw_WcQAACAAJ). Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press. - [Wigner, Eugene P.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Wigner) (1970). "Physics and the explanation of life". Foundations of Physics. 1 (1): 35–45. [Bibcode](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibcode_(identifier)):[1970FoPh....1…. [doi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doi_(identifier)):[10.1007/bf00708653](h…. [S2CID](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S2CID_(identifier)) [121081834](https://api.semanticscholar.org/CorpusID:121081834). - Khoshbin-e-Khoshnazar, M.R. (2020). ["From Dark Energy of The Very Early Universe To Dim Energy of The Mind"](https://neuroquantology.com). NeuroQuantology. 8 (7): 26–34. [doi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doi_(identifier)):[10.14704/nq.2003.1.3.…. }} External links - [Center for Consciousness Studies](http://consciousness.arizona.edu/), directed by [Stuart Hameroff](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuart_Hameroff) - [PhilPapers on Philosophy of Mind](https://philpapers.org/browse/philosophy-of-mind), edited by David Bourget and [David Chalmers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chalmers) - [Quantum Approaches to Consciousness](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qt-consciousness/), entry in [Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Encyclopedia_of_Philosop… - [Quantum-Mind](http://www.quantum-mind.co.uk/), founded by Simon Raggett

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As many as 200 Americans have now reported possible symptoms of 'Havana Syndrome'
by jim bell 22 Jul '22

22 Jul '22

https://news.yahoo.com/many-200-americans-now-reported-083000770.html Almost half of those reporting symptoms are linked to the CIA, say officials, with possible cases in Berlin and Vienna and on every continent but Antarctica._--__-------- Jim Bell's comment follows. Given how easy it should be to do an audio or radio/microwave spectrum analysis, using a SDR and smartphone, I'm surprised this is still so mysterious.

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