Re: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

John Young

9 Sep 2015 9 Sep '15

12:21 p.m.

This from the journalists who check with USG before publishing Snowden documents as Snowden allegedly requires "to avoid harm to the US." Fingerpointing at Putin is obligatory for those working the Broadcasting Board of Governors propaganda beat. The Internet as an unprecedented global spying and propaganda machine has been long noted and carefully exploited by all varieties of spies and media -- used by all governments, but by US first and foremost. For a few years the Information Highway was perceived as a marvelous invention for public education and discourse, even a whiz-bang tool for shaping politics and government, empowering the citizenry. Was long before it was understood to be a gov-com-edu-org hegemon siphoning user data indiscriminately, some openly, some secretly. Encryption has been advocated to maintain citizen privacy and security. That too has been exposed as illusory, but die-hard security promoters will not sacrifice reputation and profits for perpetuating the notion that reliable infosec and comsec are "the best we can do, don't expect absolute security." Meanwhile continuting to rig standards and products to fit USG contracting requirements. Keeping up with these requirements is a top requirement for benefiting from official secrets. Still unrevealed by Snowden is what he did as CIA IT employee for many years before a few months deep undercover NOC as an NSA contractor. At 12:25 AM 9/9/2015, you wrote:

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https://theintercept.com/2015/09/08/how-putin-controls-the-russian-internet/ The key paragraph in Andrei Soldatov and Irina Boroganâs new book, The Red Web, comes surprisingly late, after the authors have described the long and ambitious construction of a wide-ranging, all-penetrating Internet surveillance and censorship system in Russia. ... Just as the Soviet system discovered that it did not need to exert total pressure in order to control its population, so the Kremlin has now demonstrated that it does not need to block every byte in order to exert utter dominance over information.

Show replies by date

Anton Nesterov

9 Sep 9 Sep

2:14 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

John Young:

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This from the journalists who check with USG before publishing Snowden documents as Snowden allegedly requires "to avoid harm to the US." Soldatov is actually critical of Snowden mainly because of this http://www.buzzfeed.com/andreisoldatov/how-edward-snowden-inadvertenly-helpe...

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Fingerpointing at Putin is obligatory for those working the Broadcasting Board of Governors propaganda beat. It's not fingerpointing. US is not the only country with surveillance. Russia has surveillance. Many surveillance.

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The Internet as an unprecedented global spying and propaganda machine has been long noted and carefully exploited by all varieties of spies and media -- used by all governments, but by US first and foremost. SORM works from 2000, it's hard to compare Russian and US surveillance technologically, but Russia use it on larger scale for sure. SORM covers 100% of Internet connections, installing SORM is forced by law. But even if US has the most advanced surveillance system, it doesn't mean that you should ignore surveillance in other countries.

-- https://nesterov.pw GPG key: 0CE8 65F1 9043 2B11 25A5 74A7 1187 6869 67AA 56E4 https://keybase.io/komachi/key.asc

rysiek

10:52 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

Dnia środa, 9 września 2015 08:21:36 John Young pisze:

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This from the journalists who check with USG before publishing Snowden documents as Snowden allegedly requires "to avoid harm to the US."

Fingerpointing at Putin is obligatory for those working the Broadcasting Board of Governors propaganda beat.

The fact that A is evil, and A is B's adversary, doesn't automagically make B not evil. The fact that there's a lot wrong with US of A, and USA and Russia don't really cooperate well, does not make what's happening in Russia magically okay. Why there's so many people defending Russian system just because USA-Russia relations are not superfriendly is beyond me. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147

Juan

11:02 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 00:52:47 +0200 rysiek wrote:

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Dnia środa, 9 września 2015 08:21:36 John Young pisze:

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This from the journalists who check with USG before publishing Snowden documents as Snowden allegedly requires "to avoid harm to the US."

Fingerpointing at Putin is obligatory for those working the Broadcasting Board of Governors propaganda beat.

The fact that A is evil, and A is B's adversary, doesn't automagically make B not evil.

Kindly point out where JY said the russian government was not evil.

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The fact that there's a lot wrong with US of A, and USA and Russia don't really cooperate well, does not make what's happening in Russia magically okay.

Kindly point out where JY said that what's happening in russia (whatever that is) is okay. On the other hand rysiek given your laughable & constant defense of the pentagon-funded tor-cunts, you are not really in a position to be pointing too many fingers.

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Why there's so many people defending Russian system just because USA-Russia relations are not superfriendly is beyond me.

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rysiek

10 Sep 10 Sep

7:26 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

Dnia środa, 9 września 2015 20:02:34 Juan pisze:

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On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 00:52:47 +0200

rysiek wrote:

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Dnia środa, 9 września 2015 08:21:36 John Young pisze:

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This from the journalists who check with USG before publishing Snowden documents as Snowden allegedly requires "to avoid harm to the US."

Fingerpointing at Putin is obligatory for those working the Broadcasting Board of Governors propaganda beat.

The fact that A is evil, and A is B's adversary, doesn't automagically make B not evil.

Kindly point out where JY said the russian government was not evil.

One could argue that using the term "fingerpointing" to refer to potential criticism of Putin's regime, and calling people who do just that "those working the Broadcasting Board of Governors propaganda beat" might be taken as more or less just that, or at least of turning the attention away from what's going on in Russia, but I also might just had a knee-jerk moment. :) -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147

Juan

8:23 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 21:26:58 +0200 rysiek wrote:

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One could argue that using the term "fingerpointing" to refer to potential criticism of Putin's regime, and calling people who do just that "those working the Broadcasting Board of Governors propaganda beat" might be taken as more or less just that, or at least of turning the attention away from what's going on in Russia, but I also might just had a knee-jerk moment. :)

Well, I can see how putin and friends aren't exactly ideal neighbors...

The Doctor

5:34 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 00:52:47 +0200 rysiek wrote:

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Why there's so many people defending Russian system just because USA-Russia relations are not superfriendly is beyond me.

People are so trained to think in binary terms that pretty much every possible shade of grey is all but invisble. Sad. -- The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415] [ZS] PGP: 0x807B17C1 / 7960 1CDC 85C9 0B63 8D9F DD89 3BD8 FF2B 807B 17C1 WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ "Would a giant, profit-oriented cartel lie to you?" --David Letterman

Zenaan Harkness

11:57 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On 9/10/15, The Doctor wrote:

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On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 00:52:47 +0200 rysiek wrote:

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Why there's so many people defending Russian system just because USA-Russia relations are not superfriendly is beyond me.

People are so trained to think in binary terms that pretty much every possible shade of grey is all but invisble.

Sad.

Sad indeed. A nuanced (from our western media perspective), almost academic analysis of why USSR fell, due to its internal problems, and what those problems were: http://fortruss.blogspot.ru/2015/09/the-three-deaths-of-soviet-union-part-1.... http://fortruss.blogspot.ru/2015/09/the-three-deaths-of-soviet-union-part-2.... I add that today, the relevant thing is that Putin on an inter-nation level is one of the only true diplomats on today's world stage, and has forged many significant relationships (e.g. BRICS) which have shifted power significantly and irrevocably away from USA and towards a multi-polar world; and I say this is a damn good thing and we are fortunate that "Russia" has produced someone like this - perhaps not so fortunate for some Russians inside Russia, but extraordinarily important, and good, for the world as a whole. USA hegemon had to be ended, and it's almost done but the shoutin'.

Juan

11 Sep 11 Sep

2:09 a.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 23:57:19 +0000 Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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and I say this is a damn good thing and we are fortunate that "Russia" has produced someone like this - perhaps not so fortunate for some Russians inside Russia, but extraordinarily important, and good, for the world as a whole. USA hegemon had to be ended, and it's almost done but the shoutin'.

As far as the US empire being finished, I don't see the process as 'almost done'. Rather, it looks as if the US empire keeps expanding and now 'almost' controls the whole fucking world, either directly or by proxy. As to putin and co. they aren't any better than the nato mafia. As a temporary measure I do agree it's good that the american nazis get 'counterbalanced'. But it's not really a long term solution.

Mirimir

2:42 a.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On 09/10/2015 08:09 PM, Juan wrote:

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On Thu, 10 Sep 2015 23:57:19 +0000 Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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and I say this is a damn good thing and we are fortunate that "Russia" has produced someone like this - perhaps not so fortunate for some Russians inside Russia, but extraordinarily important, and good, for the world as a whole. USA hegemon had to be ended, and it's almost done but the shoutin'.

As far as the US empire being finished, I don't see the process as 'almost done'. Rather, it looks as if the US empire keeps expanding and now 'almost' controls the whole fucking world, either directly or by proxy.

Russia has two huge problems. One is alcoholism. Not as bad as Finland, for sure, but worse than the UK. The other is the Jewish exodus to Israel etc. Back in the day, it was sober (relatively speaking) Jews who mostly did the technical stuff. Hell, Lenin was a Jew, along with much of the early Party. And by the way, he was funded by Kaiser Wilhelm's government, to create chaos and keep Russia out of WWI ;)

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As to putin and co. they aren't any better than the nato mafia. As a temporary measure I do agree it's good that the american nazis get 'counterbalanced'. But it's not really a long term solution.

Actually, they're all Nazis. Maybe not literally, but they're all national socialists. The US is a national socialist state that pretends to be a representative democracy. The CCCP was a national socialist state that pretended to be communist. Now it pretends to be a representative democracy. Nazi Germany at least let its national socialism hang free. Also, many Nazi intelligence officers, scientists and propaganda experts ended up in Russia and the US. So bottom line, it's arguable that they all cooperate far more than most folks think.

James A. Donald

17 Sep 17 Sep

3:05 a.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On 2015-09-10 08:52, rysiek wrote:

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Dnia środa, 9 września 2015 08:21:36 John Young pisze:

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This from the journalists who check with USG before publishing Snowden documents as Snowden allegedly requires "to avoid harm to the US."

Fingerpointing at Putin is obligatory for those working the Broadcasting Board of Governors propaganda beat.

The fact that A is evil, and A is B's adversary, doesn't automagically make B not evil.

The fact that there's a lot wrong with US of A, and USA and Russia don't really cooperate well, does not make what's happening in Russia magically okay.

The fact that Russia is being subverted by the USA, that the USA is attempting to overthrow the Russian government, does make that government's efforts to defend itself and its people against foreign influence OK. McCarthy was right to defend the US against Soviet influence, and Putin is right to defend Russia against US influence.

Razer

4:38 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On 09/16/2015 08:05 PM, James A. Donald wrote:

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McCarthy was right to defend the US against Soviet influence

Know the nice thing about flags James? They're all the same color when they burn. My mommy was a pink-diaper commie, and I'm an anarchist, and no one has ANY right to prevent anyone or any society from trying to influence my decisions. I'm much more concerned with Western media trying to influence my opinions so they can sell advertising space to influence me about crap I'm supposed to have to be socially 'normative' to a murderous and Earth-destroying '5 planet lifestyle'.

rysiek

11:04 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

Dnia czwartek, 17 września 2015 13:05:49 James A. Donald pisze:

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The fact that Russia is being subverted by the USA, that the USA is attempting to overthrow the Russian government, does make that government's efforts to defend itself and its people against foreign influence OK.

See, I was juuuuust about to start arguing with you, but then...

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McCarthy was right to defend the US against Soviet influence, and Putin is right to defend Russia against US influence.

...this happened. Are you saying Putin's crackdown on "foreign agents"[1] is as reasonable, well-funded and justified as mccarthyism was? Well, can't argue with that! I guess I'll call Poe's Law[2] and call it a day. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_foreign_agent_law [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147

James A. Donald

21 Sep 21 Sep

2:27 a.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

James A. Donald pisze:

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The fact that Russia is being subverted by the USA, that the USA is attempting to overthrow the Russian government, does make that government's efforts to defend itself and its people against foreign influence OK.

On 2015-09-18 9:04 AM, rysiek wrote:

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See, I was juuuuust about to start arguing with you, but then...

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McCarthy was right to defend the US against Soviet influence, and Putin is right to defend Russia against US influence.

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...this happened. Are you saying Putin's crackdown on "foreign agents"[1] is as reasonable, well-funded and justified as mccarthyism was? Well, can't argue with that!

We now know that everyone that McCarthy claimed was a Soviet agent was in fact on the Soviet payroll.

James A. Donald

2:32 a.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

...

...
...this happened. Are you saying Putin's crackdown on "foreign agents"[1] is as reasonable, well-funded and justified as mccarthyism was? Well, can't argue with that!

...

We now know that everyone that McCarthy claimed was a Soviet agent was in fact on the Soviet payroll.

Just as Pussy Riot is on the US payroll

rysiek

3:06 a.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

OHAI, Dnia poniedziałek, 21 września 2015 12:27:32 James A. Donald pisze:

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We now know that everyone that McCarthy claimed was a Soviet agent was in fact on the Soviet payroll.

Dnia poniedziałek, 21 września 2015 12:32:09 James A. Donald pisze:

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Just as Pussy Riot is on the US payroll

for a moment there I entertained a notion of asking you for some sources, but then I remembered that both Putin and Obama are actually reptilian invaders from outer space and we're all fucked anyway. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147

James A. Donald

3:45 a.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On 2015-09-21 1:06 PM, rysiek wrote:

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OHAI,

Dnia poniedziałek, 21 września 2015 12:27:32 James A. Donald pisze:

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We now know that everyone that McCarthy claimed was a Soviet agent was in fact on the Soviet payroll.

Dnia poniedziałek, 21 września 2015 12:32:09 James A. Donald pisze:

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Just as Pussy Riot is on the US payroll

for a moment there I entertained a notion of asking you for some sources,

"Blacklisted by History, The Untold Story of Senator Joseph McCarthy and His Fight Against America's Enemies," Case by case, Evans reveals the unimpeachable evidence that all of the so-called victims of McCarthy's crusade against Communist subversion — every single one of them — really were Communists and agents of a hostile foreign power

James A. Donald

3:52 a.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On 2015-09-21 1:06 PM, rysiek wrote:

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for a moment there I entertained a notion of asking you for some sources, but then I remembered that both Putin and Obama are actually reptilian invaders from outer space and we're all fucked anyway.

Does it not strike you as odd that whenever their is a protest in favor of US domination and the overthrow of a supposedly oppressive regimes, the protestors are generally carrying signs in English? Is it not strange that the website of the movement that overthrew the Ukrainian government was written in English in the dialect of the Harvard educated American upper class? At least those supposedly persecuted by McCarthy took the trouble to translate (badly) their Soviet written slogans.

rysiek

11:14 a.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

Dnia poniedziałek, 21 września 2015 13:52:45 James A. Donald pisze:

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On 2015-09-21 1:06 PM, rysiek wrote:

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for a moment there I entertained a notion of asking you for some sources, but then I remembered that both Putin and Obama are actually reptilian invaders from outer space and we're all fucked anyway.

Does it not strike you as odd that whenever their is a protest in favor of US domination and the overthrow of a supposedly oppressive regimes, the protestors are generally carrying signs in English?

I don't know, man, when I was protesting against ACTA I was carrying signs in English too. And that was in Poland. This might be related to the idea that once you're protesting, you want international media to pick up the story. Or, maybe this whole anti-ACTA thing was US-inspired and played right into the hands of our reptilian overlords. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147

James A. Donald

10:30 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

...

...
Does it not strike you as odd that whenever there is a protest in favor of US domination and the overthrow of a supposedly oppressive regimes, the protestors are generally carrying signs in English?

On 2015-09-21 9:14 PM, rysiek wrote:

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I don't know, man, when I was protesting against ACTA I was carrying signs in English too. And that was in Poland. This might be related to the idea that once you're protesting, you want international media to pick up the story.

If you are trying to influence poles and the polish government, why the "international media"? What it actually means is that you are asking the American elite and the New York Times to live up to its professed principles and go easy on Poland - acknowledging that that US is the hegemon. Nothing terribly wrong with this on ACTA, an international treaty. But when you are supposedly revolting against your own government, seeking the overthrow of a supposedly oppressive regime, appealing for US support is treason against your local elites and local people.

Juan

22 Sep 22 Sep

12:07 a.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 13:14:24 +0200 rysiek wrote:

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Dnia poniedziałek, 21 września 2015 13:52:45 James A. Donald pisze:

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On 2015-09-21 1:06 PM, rysiek wrote:

...
for a moment there I entertained a notion of asking you for some sources, but then I remembered that both Putin and Obama are actually reptilian invaders from outer space and we're all fucked anyway.

Does it not strike you as odd that whenever their is a protest in favor of US domination and the overthrow of a supposedly oppressive regimes, the protestors are generally carrying signs in English?

I don't know, man, when I was protesting against ACTA I was carrying signs in English too. And that was in Poland. This might be related to the idea that once you're protesting, you want international media to pick up the story.

Or, maybe this whole anti-ACTA thing was US-inspired and played right into the hands of our reptilian overlords.

So, your protest against ACTA was legitimate (true). And so it follows that US imperialism doesn't exist and that the US gov't never uses local people to further the interests of the US gov't...

rysiek

12:10 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

Dnia poniedziałek, 21 września 2015 21:07:59 Juan pisze:

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On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 13:14:24 +0200

rysiek wrote:

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Dnia poniedziałek, 21 września 2015 13:52:45 James A. Donald pisze:

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On 2015-09-21 1:06 PM, rysiek wrote:

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for a moment there I entertained a notion of asking you for some sources, but then I remembered that both Putin and Obama are actually reptilian invaders from outer space and we're all fucked anyway.

Does it not strike you as odd that whenever their is a protest in favor of US domination and the overthrow of a supposedly oppressive regimes, the protestors are generally carrying signs in English?

I don't know, man, when I was protesting against ACTA I was carrying signs in English too. And that was in Poland. This might be related to the idea that once you're protesting, you want international media to pick up the story.

Or, maybe this whole anti-ACTA thing was US-inspired and played right into the hands of our reptilian overlords.

So, your protest against ACTA was legitimate (true).

And so it follows that US imperialism doesn't exist and that the US gov't never uses local people to further the interests of the US gov't...

No, what follows is that the "they have signs in English, and that means the protests must have been US-funded/influenced/etc" line of "reasoning" is bollocks. Not saying US imperialism doesn't exist. But people having signs in English on a protest somewhere in Nowheristan is not proof. Not even close. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147

Juan

11:11 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 14:10:46 +0200 rysiek wrote:

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Dnia poniedziałek, 21 września 2015 21:07:59 Juan pisze:

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On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 13:14:24 +0200

rysiek wrote:

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Dnia poniedziałek, 21 września 2015 13:52:45 James A. Donald pisze:

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On 2015-09-21 1:06 PM, rysiek wrote:

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for a moment there I entertained a notion of asking you for some sources, but then I remembered that both Putin and Obama are actually reptilian invaders from outer space and we're all fucked anyway.

Does it not strike you as odd that whenever their is a protest in favor of US domination and the overthrow of a supposedly oppressive regimes, the protestors are generally carrying signs in English?

I don't know, man, when I was protesting against ACTA I was carrying signs in English too. And that was in Poland. This might be related to the idea that once you're protesting, you want international media to pick up the story.

Or, maybe this whole anti-ACTA thing was US-inspired and played right into the hands of our reptilian overlords.

So, your protest against ACTA was legitimate (true).

And so it follows that US imperialism doesn't exist and that the US gov't never uses local people to further the interests of the US gov't...

No, what follows is that the "they have signs in English, and that means the protests must have been US-funded/influenced/etc" line of "reasoning" is bollocks.

It isn't bollocks, at all. English signs on cnn that just happen to match the pentagon's war propaganda are obviously suspect...except for biased people or people in the payroll of the pentagon.

...

Not saying US imperialism doesn't exist. But people having signs in English on a protest somewhere in Nowheristan is not proof. Not even close.

The signs are not proof of american imperialism. The signs are proof of the kind of 'conspiracy' that people partial to the american government deny. American imperialism doesn't need any kind of subtle 'proofs'. It's part of all fucking history books since 1776. " reptilian overlords." Don't you have anything better than that?

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Juan

23 Sep 23 Sep

6:37 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

Por curiosidad, vos seguis siendo 'afin' y 'leal' a amati y el resto de bolsas de mierda de la mafia bitcoin argenta?

jim bell

7:07 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

From: Juan To: cypherpunks@cpunks.org > Por curiosidad, vos seguis siendo 'afin' y 'leal' a amati y el > resto de bolsas de mierda de la mafia bitcoin argenta? No hablo Espanol, senor. This reminds me of something that happened in prison in 2006. I was cellies in the SHU (solitary, sort of) with a Mexican, who was illiterate in both English and Spanish. He'd received some sort of official letter, in Spanish, probably from the Mexican government. I don't understand (nearly all) Spanish, but I understood, in general, how to pronounce Spanish. So, I "read" the letter to him, not understanding it at all, and HE understood what I was reading! I was careful to explain to him that despite the fact I was reading it in Spanish, I had no idea what I was reading actually meant. Jim Bell

Juan

7:30 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 19:07:19 +0000 (UTC) jim bell wrote:

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From: Juan To: cypherpunks@cpunks.org > Por curiosidad, vos seguis siendo 'afin' y 'leal' a amati y el > resto de bolsas de mierda de la mafia bitcoin argenta?

No hablo Espanol, senor.

Apologies. The thing is, sometimes mail from the list don't seem to come (only) from the list. Yours for instance apparently was sent both to my address directly and to the list. And your message also has a "Reply-To: jim bell field. Same thing happened with Brenda's message. So, I asked Brenda if she is still loyal to the local (argentina) bitcoin mafia.

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This reminds me of something that happened in prison in 2006. I was cellies in the SHU (solitary, sort of) with a Mexican, who was illiterate in both English and Spanish. He'd received some sort of official letter, in Spanish, probably from the Mexican government. I don't understand (nearly all) Spanish, but I understood, in general, how to pronounce Spanish. So, I "read" the letter to him, not understanding it at all, and HE understood what I was reading! I was careful to explain to him that despite the fact I was reading it in Spanish, I had no idea what I was reading actually meant.

That's a great story =)

...

Jim Bell

Juan

6:46 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

...

Por curiosidad, vos seguis siendo 'afin' y 'leal' a amati y el resto de bolsas de mierda de la mafia bitcoin argenta?

Oops. That was intended for Brenda, not the list... Anyway, it turns out I know Brenda and I know she's the typical fake libertarian. She and her 'friends'.

James A. Donald

21 Sep 21 Sep

4:01 a.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

It used to be that whenever Soviet attempts to brutally subjugate some country failed, the left would cry "Evil US imperialism" Now you have actual evil US imperialism happening right in front of your noses, for example Haiti, and the left is in total denial.

James A. Donald

4:05 a.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On 2015-09-21 2:01 PM, James A. Donald wrote:

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It used to be that whenever Soviet attempts to brutally subjugate some country failed, the left would cry "Evil US imperialism"

In a hilarious reversal, US efforts to brutally subjugate Syria go horribly wrong, and the left cries "Evil Russian imperialism"

Razer

9:05 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On 09/20/2015 09:01 PM, James A. Donald wrote:

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It used to be that whenever Soviet attempts to brutally subjugate some country failed, the left would cry "Evil US imperialism"

Now you have actual evil US imperialism happening right in front of your noses, for example Haiti, and the left is in total denial.

The Cruise Missile Left is cheering all "humanitarian interventions". All other left-thinking Mericans have been stupidified by TeeVee. I defer to: Amusing Ourselves To Death. Neil Postman. Available at LibCom Anarchist library: https://libcom.org/library/amusing-ourselves-death-public-discourse-age-show... The last chapter regarding Orwell or Huxley, who was right? clinches it. (personally, much like General Jack Ripper believed water fluoridation sapping the essence of our manhood, I think "Turkeyburger" is an insidious plot to stupefy Mericans with Soma-like L-Tryptophan. Note how the media always plays up the benefit of it in re Beef burgers, and anytime you see the word "Meatxxx" or "Burger minus any reference to beef or 'ham' in food descriptions, at least some significant portion of it is L-Tryptophan bearing Turkey product.)

rysiek

22 Sep 22 Sep

12:26 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

Dnia poniedziałek, 21 września 2015 14:05:59 Razer pisze:

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On 09/20/2015 09:01 PM, James A. Donald wrote:

...
It used to be that whenever Soviet attempts to brutally subjugate some country failed, the left would cry "Evil US imperialism"

Now you have actual evil US imperialism happening right in front of your noses, for example Haiti, and the left is in total denial.

The Cruise Missile Left is cheering all "humanitarian interventions". All other left-thinking Mericans have been stupidified by TeeVee.

I defer to: Amusing Ourselves To Death. Neil Postman.

Available at LibCom Anarchist library:

https://libcom.org/library/amusing-ourselves-death-public-discourse-age-show -business-neil-postman

The last chapter regarding Orwell or Huxley, who was right? clinches it.

Very much so. Here's a helpful infographic version: http://rys.io/static/amusing-ourselves-to-death-huxley-orwell.png /not mine, unfortunately/ One thing to note is that one important way we are being intellectually castrated is by being led to radicalizing our positions -- by the filter bubble, by keeping more and more to like-minded people on social media, by assuming "the other side" (whichever that might be in any given circumstances) is "inherently evil", and by assuming off the bat what the "other side" in a given discussion has to say. Without listening, without thinking. This, in turn, makes it impossible to find middle ground and to *actually* understand the world, and to *actually* work to improve it. Look at the US vs. Russia debate. Why the fuck does it have to be "vs."? Why the fuck almost every single "lefty" person that I talk to and pass on my concerns about what Putin (yes, personally that guy; I have no beef with Russians as a people) assumes that at the same time I'm saying I'm okay with US internal or international policies? Why if I criticize actions of the Russian government I am immediately assumed to be defending actions of the US? And, on the other hand, why do people that have (rightful) grievances with US policies fail to even *consider* that maybe, just maybe, things in Russia aren't all that great and that Putin is not entirely the victim here? They are both fucked up, in many *different* (systemic racism in the US; systemic homophobia in Russia), and several *similar* ways (oligarchy running things). And yet they are able to play us, because predominantly we simply cannot see the bigger picture and cannot seem to understand *anything* more complicated than the simplified beyond belief "USA BAD RUSSIA GOOD" (or the other way around) worldview. It sickens me. -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147

rysiek

1:04 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

Dnia wtorek, 22 września 2015 14:26:05 rysiek pisze:

...

Why the fuck almost every single "lefty" person that I talk to and pass on my concerns about what Putin (yes, personally that guy; I have no beef with Russians as a people) assumes that at the same time I'm saying I'm okay with US internal or international policies?

Brainfart, my bad. Was supposed to be: "Why the fuck almost every single "lefty" person that I talk to and pass on my concerns about what Putin does (yes, personally that guy; I have no beef with Russians as a people) assumes that at the same time I'm saying I'm okay with US internal or international policies?" -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147

Razer

5:30 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On 09/22/2015 05:26 AM, rysiek wrote:

...

They are both fucked up, in many *different* (systemic racism in the US; systemic homophobia in Russia), and several *similar* ways (oligarchy running things). And yet they are able to play us, because predominantly we simply cannot see the bigger picture and cannot seem to understand *anything* more complicated than the simplified beyond belief "USA BAD RUSSIA GOOD" (or the other way around) worldview.

For so many years now the geopolitical 'grand game' has been "Good Cop/Bad Cop", "Mutt and "Jeff" played on the typically indigenous people-d extractive resources nations (and in other ways against the west's manufacturing satraps) by the US AND Russia. Either you pick one side or the other or we have a war in YOUR country where YOUR people get killed and your society/way of life destroyed. There are no "nice guys". On the other hand I bristle when Syria's ally is accused of warmongering for doing what allies are supposed to do. Come to their defense in the traditional manner against an army of mercenaries that the West claims on one hand to be fighting, and on the other, had a large part in it's creation. Americans just sat idly by with their thumbs up their asses in denial while the State Dept and CIA created AQv2 from the Libyans we hired to sodomize Muammar al-Gadaffi with swords, and if the Russians want to eradicate that threat to Syria and the region, have at it.

Brenda Fernández

6:05 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

USG incompetence is hard to understand in these matters. I have no idea why they fuck up like this, getting involved in a conflict, supporting a side their are against to fight against the other side they are supposedly also against, but always on paper, they will never go there be killed. So why involve yourself in the first place other than to destroy what remains of your reputations, what remains of your money and relevance? But it's interesting nonetheless, to watch and see them fall, which they've been invariably doing since Vietnam. On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Razer wrote:

...

...
They are both fucked up, in many *different* (systemic racism in the US; systemic homophobia in Russia), and several *similar* ways (oligarchy running things). And yet they are able to play us, because predominantly we simply cannot see the bigger picture and cannot seem to understand *anything* more complicated than the simplified beyond belief "USA BAD RUSSIA GOOD" (or

On 09/22/2015 05:26 AM, rysiek wrote: the

...
other way around) worldview.

For so many years now the geopolitical 'grand game' has been "Good Cop/Bad Cop", "Mutt and "Jeff" played on the typically indigenous people-d extractive resources nations (and in other ways against the west's manufacturing satraps) by the US AND Russia. Either you pick one side or the other or we have a war in YOUR country where YOUR people get killed and your society/way of life destroyed. There are no "nice guys". On the other hand I bristle when Syria's ally is accused of warmongering for doing what allies are supposed to do. Come to their defense in the traditional manner against an army of mercenaries that the West claims on one hand to be fighting, and on the other, had a large part in it's creation.

Americans just sat idly by with their thumbs up their asses in denial while the State Dept and CIA created AQv2 from the Libyans we hired to sodomize Muammar al-Gadaffi with swords, and if the Russians want to eradicate that threat to Syria and the region, have at it.

-- Brenda Fernández me@brendafernandez.com GPG: CE5BEE6C81FCA4D4 http://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCE5BEE6C81FCA4D4

Brenda Fernández

6:09 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

Sorry, wrong thread. On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Brenda Fernández wrote:

...

USG incompetence is hard to understand in these matters. I have no idea why they fuck up like this, getting involved in a conflict, supporting a side their are against to fight against the other side they are supposedly also against, but always on paper, they will never go there be killed. So why involve yourself in the first place other than to destroy what remains of your reputations, what remains of your money and relevance? But it's interesting nonetheless, to watch and see them fall, which they've been invariably doing since Vietnam.

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Razer wrote:

...
...
They are both fucked up, in many *different* (systemic racism in the US; systemic homophobia in Russia), and several *similar* ways (oligarchy running things). And yet they are able to play us, because predominantly we simply cannot see the bigger picture and cannot seem to understand *anything* more complicated than the simplified beyond belief "USA BAD RUSSIA GOOD" (or

On 09/22/2015 05:26 AM, rysiek wrote: the

...
other way around) worldview.

For so many years now the geopolitical 'grand game' has been "Good Cop/Bad Cop", "Mutt and "Jeff" played on the typically indigenous people-d extractive resources nations (and in other ways against the west's manufacturing satraps) by the US AND Russia. Either you pick one side or the other or we have a war in YOUR country where YOUR people get killed and your society/way of life destroyed. There are no "nice guys". On the other hand I bristle when Syria's ally is accused of warmongering for doing what allies are supposed to do. Come to their defense in the traditional manner against an army of mercenaries that the West claims on one hand to be fighting, and on the other, had a large part in it's creation.

Americans just sat idly by with their thumbs up their asses in denial while the State Dept and CIA created AQv2 from the Libyans we hired to sodomize Muammar al-Gadaffi with swords, and if the Russians want to eradicate that threat to Syria and the region, have at it.

-- Brenda Fernández me@brendafernandez.com GPG: CE5BEE6C81FCA4D4 http://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCE5BEE6C81FCA4D4

-- Brenda Fernández me@brendafernandez.com GPG: CE5BEE6C81FCA4D4 http://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCE5BEE6C81FCA4D4

Juan

7:20 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:05:14 -0300 Brenda Fernández wrote:

...

USG incompetence is hard to understand in these matters.

there isn't any incompetence involved.

...

I have no idea why they fuck up like this,

right, you don't. getting involved in a conflict,

...

supporting a side their are against to fight against the other side they are supposedly also against, but always on paper, they will never go there be killed. So why involve yourself in the first place other than to destroy what remains of your reputations, what remains of your money and relevance? But it's interesting nonetheless, to watch and see them fall, which they've been invariably doing since Vietnam.

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Razer wrote:

...
...
They are both fucked up, in many *different* (systemic racism in the US; systemic homophobia in Russia), and several *similar* ways (oligarchy running things). And yet they are able to play us, because predominantly we simply cannot see the bigger picture and cannot seem to understand *anything* more complicated than the simplified beyond belief "USA BAD RUSSIA GOOD" (or

On 09/22/2015 05:26 AM, rysiek wrote: the

...
other way around) worldview.

For so many years now the geopolitical 'grand game' has been "Good Cop/Bad Cop", "Mutt and "Jeff" played on the typically indigenous people-d extractive resources nations (and in other ways against the west's manufacturing satraps) by the US AND Russia. Either you pick one side or the other or we have a war in YOUR country where YOUR people get killed and your society/way of life destroyed. There are no "nice guys". On the other hand I bristle when Syria's ally is accused of warmongering for doing what allies are supposed to do. Come to their defense in the traditional manner against an army of mercenaries that the West claims on one hand to be fighting, and on the other, had a large part in it's creation.

Americans just sat idly by with their thumbs up their asses in denial while the State Dept and CIA created AQv2 from the Libyans we hired to sodomize Muammar al-Gadaffi with swords, and if the Russians want to eradicate that threat to Syria and the region, have at it.

rysiek

9:54 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

Dnia wtorek, 22 września 2015 16:20:51 Juan pisze:

...

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:05:14 -0300

Brenda Fernández wrote:

...
USG incompetence is hard to understand in these matters.

there isn't any incompetence involved.

...
I have no idea why they fuck up like this,

right, you don't.

Thank FSM you do! :) -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147

Brenda Fernández

23 Sep 23 Sep

9:22 a.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

so all they do is in their actual best interest and they aren't failing and on the brink of collapse? Care to clarify apart from trolling? k, thx! On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Juan wrote:

...

On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:05:14 -0300 Brenda Fernández wrote:

...
USG incompetence is hard to understand in these matters.

there isn't any incompetence involved.

...
I have no idea why they fuck up like this,

right, you don't.

getting involved in a conflict,

...
supporting a side their are against to fight against the other side they are supposedly also against, but always on paper, they will never go there be killed. So why involve yourself in the first place other than to destroy what remains of your reputations, what remains of your money and relevance? But it's interesting nonetheless, to watch and see them fall, which they've been invariably doing since Vietnam.

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Razer wrote:

...
...
They are both fucked up, in many *different* (systemic racism in the US; systemic homophobia in Russia), and several *similar* ways (oligarchy running things). And yet they are able to play us, because predominantly we simply cannot see the bigger picture and cannot seem to understand *anything* more complicated than the simplified beyond belief "USA BAD RUSSIA GOOD" (or

On 09/22/2015 05:26 AM, rysiek wrote: the

...
other way around) worldview.

For so many years now the geopolitical 'grand game' has been "Good Cop/Bad Cop", "Mutt and "Jeff" played on the typically indigenous people-d extractive resources nations (and in other ways against the west's manufacturing satraps) by the US AND Russia. Either you pick one side or the other or we have a war in YOUR country where YOUR people get killed and your society/way of life destroyed. There are no "nice guys". On the other hand I bristle when Syria's ally is accused of warmongering for doing what allies are supposed to do. Come to their defense in the traditional manner against an army of mercenaries that the West claims on one hand to be fighting, and on the other, had a large part in it's creation.

Americans just sat idly by with their thumbs up their asses in denial while the State Dept and CIA created AQv2 from the Libyans we hired to sodomize Muammar al-Gadaffi with swords, and if the Russians want to eradicate that threat to Syria and the region, have at it.

-- Brenda Fernández me@brendafernandez.com GPG: CE5BEE6C81FCA4D4 http://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xCE5BEE6C81FCA4D4

Juan

6:48 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On Wed, 23 Sep 2015 06:22:43 -0300 Brenda Fernández wrote:

...

so all they do is in their actual best interest and they aren't failing and on the brink of collapse?

LMAO! The USG is on the brink of collapse? Lay off the drugs.

...

Care to clarify apart from trolling?

the fuck do you mean, trolling?

...

k, thx!

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Juan wrote:

...
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:05:14 -0300 Brenda Fernández wrote:

...
USG incompetence is hard to understand in these matters.

there isn't any incompetence involved.

...
I have no idea why they fuck up like this,

right, you don't.

getting involved in a conflict,

...
supporting a side their are against to fight against the other side they are supposedly also against, but always on paper, they will never go there be killed. So why involve yourself in the first place other than to destroy what remains of your reputations, what remains of your money and relevance? But it's interesting nonetheless, to watch and see them fall, which they've been invariably doing since Vietnam.

On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Razer wrote:

...
...
They are both fucked up, in many *different* (systemic racism in the US; systemic homophobia in Russia), and several *similar* ways (oligarchy running things). And yet they are able to play us, because predominantly we simply cannot see the bigger picture and cannot seem to understand *anything* more complicated than the simplified beyond belief "USA BAD RUSSIA GOOD" (or

On 09/22/2015 05:26 AM, rysiek wrote: the

...
other way around) worldview.

For so many years now the geopolitical 'grand game' has been "Good Cop/Bad Cop", "Mutt and "Jeff" played on the typically indigenous people-d extractive resources nations (and in other ways against the west's manufacturing satraps) by the US AND Russia. Either you pick one side or the other or we have a war in YOUR country where YOUR people get killed and your society/way of life destroyed. There are no "nice guys". On the other hand I bristle when Syria's ally is accused of warmongering for doing what allies are supposed to do. Come to their defense in the traditional manner against an army of mercenaries that the West claims on one hand to be fighting, and on the other, had a large part in it's creation.

Americans just sat idly by with their thumbs up their asses in denial while the State Dept and CIA created AQv2 from the Libyans we hired to sodomize Muammar al-Gadaffi with swords, and if the Russians want to eradicate that threat to Syria and the region, have at it.

Juan

21 Sep 21 Sep

6:19 a.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 05:06:23 +0200 rysiek wrote:

...

for a moment there I entertained a notion of asking you for some sources, but then I remembered that both Putin and Obama are actually reptilian invaders

You know rysiek, that kind of comment isn't really in line with your more enlightened comments and observations.... Just saying... from outer space and we're all fucked anyway.

...

rysiek

11:16 a.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

Dnia poniedziałek, 21 września 2015 03:19:45 Juan pisze:

...

On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 05:06:23 +0200

rysiek wrote:

...
for a moment there I entertained a notion of asking you for some sources, but then I remembered that both Putin and Obama are actually reptilian invaders

You know rysiek, that kind of comment isn't really in line with your more enlightened comments and observations....

Just saying...

Did I just get a veiled praise from Juan? Now I'm conflicted! -- Pozdrawiam, Michał "rysiek" Woźniak Zmieniam klucz GPG :: http://rys.io/pl/147 GPG Key Transition :: http://rys.io/en/147

Zenaan Harkness

12:05 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On 9/21/15, rysiek wrote:

...

Dnia poniedziałek, 21 września 2015 03:19:45 Juan pisze:

...
On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 05:06:23 +0200

rysiek wrote:

...
for a moment there I entertained a notion of asking you for some sources, but then I remembered that both Putin and Obama are actually reptilian invaders

You know rysiek, that kind of comment isn't really in line with your more enlightened comments and observations....

Just saying...

Did I just get a veiled praise from Juan? Now I'm conflicted!

Nah man, close your eyes, take a deep breath and focus now: he destroyed you ad-hominem, totally destroyed you! All better now? :)

Razer

8:54 p.m.

New subject: How Putin Controls the Internet and Popular Opinion in Russia

On 09/20/2015 08:06 PM, rysiek wrote:

...

...
...
Just as Pussy Riot is on the US payroll for a moment there I entertained a notion of asking you for some sources, but

Dnia poniedziałek, 21 września 2015 12:32:09 James A. Donald pisze: then I remembered that both Putin and Obama are actually reptilian invaders from outer space and we're all fucked anyway.

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participants (11)

Anton Nesterov
Brenda Fernández
James A. Donald
jim bell
John Young
Juan
Mirimir
Razer
rysiek
The Doctor
Zenaan Harkness