On Nov 9, 2016 5:19 AM, "Cannon" wrote:

God bless the USA!

Please, God, bless much more _the rest of the world_ because ALL the politicians are monsters, but USA's ones have more ego trips! Help!!! \(+o+)/ (All politicians are monsters, with different degrees of internal and external corruption, not only her and him, not only in USA.)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 On 11/09/2016 09:27 AM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:

(All politicians are monsters, with different degrees of internal and external corruption, not only her and him, not only in USA.)

While yes true that most politicians suck. Why all the hate for Trump? He is pro American, pro constitution, pro 2nd amendment, pro border security. Will protect the USA from the invasion Europe is facing, we Americans dont want to go the route of Europe such as France and germany where their society is infected with jihadists that are attacking people, raping women, trashing the cities, defacating in the streets and shooting/blowing people up. France and Germany is a hell hole with defenseless population. All complaints I have seen people say about Trump are that he is racists or against gays. Such claims are utter lies. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYIw9TAAoJEAYDai9lH2mw1wQP/1nOL6dwUhNgscepmbz3whWF Sh89e7Jasl1R2eAzTzq1Jf4BgQukwLrhhYWivckMCau4tqnvkebGwQ9iXIAnSo1U +pURC57LcaoFERckq00IF25lEnfG6+ffSOk4DKhvQbstK23HJ7QlbCCiu6HoiQv7 UsNAfZPZRZtBq6i0Dtu3PTN+BSnjcKBTtJFeDfCaZLalccuggVFxcQCY8GLnPZDd +ZJlFqpHtiVf+jVxSt+rWrpCcus10BmIIw7ydfGf8M/doJALTzgfaTf8dh72U/0c wjjOaE6xUH+7hYrkHcwuOq3GSoxBB6k1fL7d/0rs9EBpE8MTXGFfuZt92DGa7zzv ZV1Ac1/d8woiNnkSXYT4h8Fjg9reDDcdeCkcYwACHYcKX1e3+YKxrp3CyVx+Nmnb eQGIO8SpsyIpmChDxTH92Sm2+QEbmYsVJMBhWV6kN7slrgBNS58NSDuLUCQF0iqI +ivpOYUNe808rjX0OeV4T9uDRuMAH6zx0RTgBZJANIrMxMgOqD7v2s3gQK++h1Je 0yDq9lpj2+Jj0OxOULF0qTcGczvXddr09j68rvZKJ1/LhBquOrqZByvbrMYNFT0V r+8KQYTJavezYoNKjznV08MvuSAM/uDFycaxtRzPPwBO2SS142hPlFpNclJBAnJF fkBAl+v15CdoTF158W7G =ZqlF -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Nov 9, 2016 8:59 AM, "Cannon" wrote:

On 11/09/2016 09:27 AM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:

...

(All politicians are monsters, with different degrees of internal and

external corruption, not only her and him, not only in USA.)

While yes true that most politicians suck. Why all the hate for Trump? He

is pro American, pro constitution, pro 2nd amendment, pro border security. Will protect the USA from the invasion Europe is facing, we Americans dont want to go the route of Europe such as France and germany where their society is infected with jihadists that are attacking people, raping women, trashing the cities, defacating in the streets and shooting/blowing people up. France and Germany is a hell hole with defenseless population.

All complaints I have seen people say about Trump are that he is racists

or against gays. Such claims are utter lies. Lies? Please, it'll be better to watch his discourses again, boy. ;) Ah, read my message AGAIN too, please. "All the hate for Trump" _AND ALL THE OTHERS_ has good reasons. And it's much more 'repulse' than 'hate', for being sincere. You're pretty fair, baby. Jihadists cannot do these bad things, but Trump can because he's a proud North American citizen. So, your President can attack women and being intolerant with all the people. OK, it is not much intelligent or smart, it's terribly evil, but it's your sincere opinion. You aren't hypocrite, at least. Good luck is what I wish for you, your country and the rest of the world. Take care.

I look at the bright side: Under that criminal scumbucket Nixon we ended up with: Clean Air/Clean Water Act, Women's "Right to choose", The US got OUT of Vietnam, the EPA. Know why? Because it PUT PEOPLE IN THE STREET IN A MURDEROUS RAGE INSTEAD OF BACK TO SLEEP LIKE ELECTING a Teflon Warmonger OREO DID. The REAL FIGHT is going to be IN THE STREET to maintain what laughably few rights we really have. Or have ever had. Gil Scott-Heron was right. It's a B-Movie with the good ol days and the good ol boys. That's what 'Merica wants! They're really looking for John Wayne, but he was no longer available so they settled for ... The closest thing they could get to John Wayne. #DonaldTrump And he doesn't wear a pantsuit... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78tTKTkz778&feature=youtu.be&t=3869 Rr Ps. Any of you who think there's a speck of a difference between the CRIMINALS the elite's pwned media offered up as a choice, or their actualizable policies within the US political system or it's society are ... literally ... ignorant. Nothing more than cheerleaders for the colors red or blue. "We find two great gangs of political speculators, who alternately take possession of the state power and exploit it by the most corrupt ends -- the nation is powerless against these two great cartels of politicians who are ostensibly its servants, but in reality dominate and plunder it." -Friedrich Engels [Image] "We find two great gangs of political speculators, who alternately take possession of the state power and exploit it by the most corrupt ends -- the nation is powerless against these two great cartels of politicians who are ostensibly its servants, but in reality dominate and plunder it." - Engels On 11/09/2016 03:59 AM, Cannon wrote:

On 11/09/2016 09:27 AM, Cecilia Tanaka wrote:

...

(All politicians are monsters, with different degrees of internal and external corruption, not only her and him, not only in USA.)

While yes true that most politicians suck. Why all the hate for Trump? He is pro American, pro constitution, pro 2nd amendment, pro border security. Will protect the USA from the invasion Europe is facing, we Americans dont want to go the route of Europe such as France and germany where their society is infected with jihadists that are attacking people, raping women, trashing the cities, defacating in the streets and shooting/blowing people up. France and Germany is a hell hole with defenseless population.

All complaints I have seen people say about Trump are that he is racists or against gays. Such claims are utter lies.

On Nov 9, 2016 8:29 AM, "John Newman" wrote:

Fuck the USA =)

John, please, more compassion. "Fu¢k the USA" is too much, dear. :( Unhappily, they are already fu¢ked. The rest of the world too. It's the end of the globalization era and the world will change a lot. Not for a better stage, probably. :( This corrupt guy really will create new jobs. He wants workers building "The Great Wall of USA", more cops, more army, uff... Good luck, USA! :(

| The attempts at building an interconnected globalised world are | beginning to fail.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 | The attempts at building an interconnected globalised world are | beginning to fail. The problem with globalism is that such a goal generally leads to centralization of power with trans-national government structure. Such a global big government is dangerous to our liberties due to such centralization and consolidation of power. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYIxaJAAoJEAYDai9lH2mwzSQP/22wYOTgKA1C8a0XhYXZbINo IH2tbpdfC5PNbvW4L0co+I7CEBk2OzmocMKxsdWORWk5CCKZDDUOVIgyZnUGhHJX 2r0auawV+buiEXQDdSo1mTXVh4Ln5CTAHJTc0n0OlhU+nIXIc+2t9re8Nvh5s934 4KMwYxJNifJ6okeGlnJUeMGgVUx7BCt5c058ICKxR1FHlpoaRReRdrCX+l+TFOQk 5G7PW3rd/2qMzyVSoRmno+iuQqa2joYiq+qj/tht4NDGhNpwyzqDkE7jtZnPxn5I qlQ6UM+1QV6S4IWXGl/HI3M+iqINtXIM/6w8TZMq71U9eq12syrAVjTaa9ub0WPr tcvjZhzm0pHA7iT7OnXkN4LL3AVUzGFqxrvVDd8rmnmPf1n6seLayjHrszwxRgf1 Soc84LmAz3hISQJbhKzm78ZaLWZF4O1KJUnx8g5IGUmi578T2W/mRYwHYBwKmT1S IzRQ/RU/e8MGw1bg7OKJSCo7UT0kihlzClwdu1GPn7ncyu2LsGxSQsY4OJeWQ7OU GjDlAl4OPaVEBta5F/rIVHM4Ick+mS8J/x7/DicFq4q3/8Gti7/XrZiEs1a2ObOZ GhgY86T53J79W3s/j7MTM7T7w0YhRedtfGJQQXf7jTlO+u4rD0rY7PKRQUNKU2xR YIUxh7OuT4b2jfasVCKv =pSy9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 6:28 AM, John Newman wrote:

Fuck the USA =)

She's a pretty hawt bish, nice robes, cute hat, bit of a bookworm, tough as nails, got that indepndant freedom thing going on for a while now... yeah, I'd do her. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty

http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/flashback-watch-the-simpsons-predict-pre... Trump will break your country. Hope Lisa Simpson can save it in an alternative reality, in a paralel world. :P

On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 11:28 AM, jim bell wrote:

most of the news media were pushing on the scales for Hillary.

They still are. And generally trying to steer shit with their sideways questions and comments. But hey, it's a free press, always happens. At least people can more or less be their own press with youtube, uploading tv clips and commentary. Now if only youtbe were decentralized...

On 11/09/2016 12:42 PM, grarpamp wrote:

County level maps always very interesting... democrats really only exist in big cities, and a few regional areas respondant to dems social causes such as black south. Massive 20-60% percent differences, flipping right at city limits.

http://www.nytimes.com/elections/results/president

So the final numbers for Election Day are: 231,556,622 eligible voters 46.9% didn't vote 25.6% voted Clinton 25.5% voted Trump NOBODY got the most votes! Rr

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 00:30:30 -0500 grarpamp wrote:

On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 10:43 PM, Razer wrote:

...

So the final numbers for Election Day are:

231,556,622 eligible voters

46.9% didn't vote 25.6% voted Clinton 25.5% voted Trump

NOBODY got the most votes!

I'm ok with that... means there's plenty of room for someone representing and executing a different arrangement of ideas to get 25.7%.

I think the point is that "nobody" got the most votes so "nobody" should be president.... Also voting age is of course statist nonsense so the number of votes for "nobody" is even higher.

On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:51 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 06:16:33PM -0300, Juan wrote: On Thu, 10 Nov 2016 00:30:30 -0500 grarpamp wrote:

...

...

On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 10:43 PM, Razer wrote: So the final numbers for Election Day are:

231,556,622 eligible voters

46.9% didn't vote 25.6% voted Clinton 25.5% voted Trump

NOBODY got the most votes!

I'm ok with that... means there's plenty of room for someone representing and executing a different arrangement of ideas to get 25.7%.

I think the point is that "nobody" got the most votes so "nobody" should be president....

Also voting age is of course statist nonsense so the number of votes for "nobody" is even higher.

I want to marry my rock, and my rock wants to vote, it's an assisted rock, assisted by me, so I assist it to the voting booth, the only slight difficulty might be proving sentience, assuming such state ordered nonsense as "sentience" were set as the minimum bar for voting -though if it can be tested, I can prolly write a computer program for my robot to demonstrate sentience.

Sentience test??? That's voter disenfranchisement. Anyone dumb enough to think their vote means jack shit is barely sentient anyway.... =)

:)

Jim wrote:

Ding Dong the Wicked Witch is DEAD!!!

So, good news, the wicked witch lost. Bad news, trump won.

On 11/12/2016 12:02 PM, John Newman wrote:

...

On Nov 11, 2016, at 4:58 PM, juan wrote:

Jim wrote:

...

Ding Dong the Wicked Witch is DEAD!!!

So, good news, the wicked witch lost. Bad news, trump won

The history of American politics is a wretched piece of surreal theatre.... Americans laboring under the illusion of freedom at home while every murderous trick is taken by government in cahoots with industry to maximize profits for the oligarchic elite. The Dulles brothers set the template in Guatemala...

Trump promises a return to a time (the post ww2 boom in America) when America profited in particular off the fact that most of the rest of the developed world had been bombed to shit, its industry destroyed. It's a nice con, and I'm quite sure he will do everything in his considerable power to enrich himself, his class, and his cronies, but I wonder what Joe Dumbshit will think when those factory jobs DON'T come back....

I'd say I hope it all gets burned down to the fucking ground, but I happen to live in the DC area.

Chunks of DC did, back in the 60s. And were still wastelands, last time I was there. Have those areas filled in yet?

Actually, I still hope that =).

;)

John

On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 2:02 PM, John Newman wrote:

wonder what Joe Dumbshit will think when those factory jobs DON'T come back....

Same thing he will when they don't come back under Clinton or Bernie or any other current major figure either. Raping, sellout and efficiency away of "good factory jobs" economy is eventual in a 1% system with no redistribution of harvested wealth. It's a foolish race to the top before the implosion without them realizing the top is the final lost position. All sorts of bad things happen with that.

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 4:16 PM, juan wrote:

I think the point is that "nobody" got the most votes so "nobody" should be president....

That's fine too. But without people out there explaining exactly how that will work in peoples daily lives, how to translate and integrate it, how to get things done... it won't happen. And since many who would suggest nobody are often too busy being little ragekids set on destroy, not much evolving and explaining is getting done, and thus not many nobody are being elected.

On 11/13/2016 10:12 PM, grarpamp wrote:

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 4:16 PM, juan wrote:

...

I think the point is that "nobody" got the most votes so "nobody" should be president....

That's fine too. But without people out there explaining exactly how that will work in peoples daily lives, how to translate and integrate it, how to get things done... it won't happen. And since many who would suggest nobody are often too busy being little ragekids set on destroy, not much evolving and explaining is getting done, and thus not many nobody are being elected.

The way it works should be stupidly simple. If "Nobody" wins, the election is declared null and void and a new slate of candidates is offered (within some time frame shorter than the original election campaign) while the sitting executive remains in office (with perhaps reduced powers) until 'nobody' has less votes than one of the candidates offered. Rr

On 11/14/2016 11:20 PM, grarpamp wrote:

Your nobody is not Juan's nobody.

Mine is solution-focused nobody. I also don't believe you can simply eliminate governments, or armies, or police agencies just... like... that. Anyone who says such things is either an idiot, a or a feudal warlord with an armory and a flock of marauding friends waiting for the opportunity to rip you off. Personally, I think that last describes the typical "Libertarian" in the US. Anarcho or not. Rr

On 11/15/2016 07:31 PM, jim bell wrote:

*From:* Razer

...

Your nobody is not Juan's nobody. Mine is solution-focused nobody. I also don't believe you can simply eliminate governments, or armies, or police agencies just... like... that. Anyone who says such things is either >an idiot, a or a feudal warlord with an armory and a flock of marauding friends waiting for the opportunity to rip you off. Personally, I think that last describes the typical "Libertarian" in

On 11/14/2016 11:20 PM, grarpamp wrote: the US. Anarcho or not.

Well, I don't consider myself to be a 'typical' libertarian. And as for eliminating governments and armies: Are you considering my AP essay? https://cryptome.org/ap.htm

I'm not saying implementing AP will trivial, but it is a relatively economical way for the public to get rid of governments and armies. I think anyone who thinks otherwise has a responsibility to defend that position. Jim Bell

My point being it's not going to happen this week nor does it happen in an instant. Theres a period of time, an interregnum if you would. If police vanished off the street this second what do you think might happen, realistically? Rr

On 11/16/2016 07:11 PM, grarpamp wrote:

On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Razer wrote:

...

If police vanished off the street this second what do you think might happen, realistically? There'd be a whole lotta thugs rising up, and becoming dead thugs just as fast. More efficient than today's model of dethugging? Who knows. Don't be a thug.

Umn... What about all the unarmed non-thugs? They're going to kill the thugs? Run them out of town on a rail? Former blackwater employees who band up? No-longer employed Cops working with exactly the people they worked with in uniform etc? You REALLY expect them to all kill each other off before they decimate the rest of the population? Really? Really REALLY? Jajajajajajajjjja! Gasp cough Ak AcK ACk ... choking noises... Rr

On 11/16/2016 07:59 PM, juan wrote:

On Wed, 16 Nov 2016 19:48:56 -0800 Razer wrote:

...

...

On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Razer wrote:

...

If police vanished off the street this second what do you think might happen, realistically? There'd be a whole lotta thugs rising up, and becoming dead thugs just as fast. More efficient than today's model of dethugging? Who knows. Don't be a thug. Umn... What about all the unarmed non-thugs? They're going to kill the

On 11/16/2016 07:11 PM, grarpamp wrote: thugs?

Run them out of town on a rail?

Former blackwater employees who band up? No-longer employed Cops working with exactly the people they worked with in uniform etc?

Are you suggesting that "former blackwater employees" (which are 'ex' US military psychos) are kept in check by...cops?

No... Absolutely not.

...

You REALLY expect them to all kill each other off before they decimate the rest of the population? Really? Really REALLY? The hypothetical scenario is not being fully explained. IF all cops dissapeared, then what. The military would take over? That makes no difference from the point of view of the state's subjects, so it's not even interesting as 'thought experiment'.

If all 'law enforcement' psychos lost their power? Then the mafia would take over? Again, that would simply be a re-cycling of the state.

Problem is they don't "Disappear". They're just abandoned to run amuck marauding. I'd suggest retraining them to do something socially useful like Social worker or something but I'm dreaming... I've actually suggested that to a few face to face that comes the revolution we'll retrain them to do something more useful, and if they don;t want to they can live on welfare... It's ok by me. :>

...

Jajajajajajajjjja! Gasp cough Ak AcK ACk ... choking noises...

Rr

On Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:28:21 -0500 grarpamp wrote:

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:48 PM, Razer wrote:

...

[?]

Well, those are the practical everyday questions people like Juan refuse to answer and explain the potential workings

That is not how it works =) A few points in no particular order : a) I am under no obligation to explain anything b) there are TONS of literature dealing with political philosophy c) utilitarianism is a joke d) at any rate, it's aggressors who should be doing the explaining. People who support the state's authority should provide the 'rational' basis for their obey-or-die 'philosophy' Let's say A point a gun at B and then the following dialog ensues : A : I want to buy ice-cream. Give me money or I'll kill you. B : what the fuck? A : I need money, so give me your money. B : are you nuts? A : No, I want ice-cream. How can I can buy ice-cream if I don't have money? B : I don't know. That's not my problem. A : Look I'm being rational. You have to solve my problems. If you don't want to be robed and/or raped and/or killed, YOU have to 'explain' B : why? A : and AND, but BUT WHO WOULD PICK THE COTTON?

of to people who might then vote for his nobodys. If you want a vote you have to put it in everyday practical terms. No offense to the Juans's out there, just saying.

No problem. I just explained why it's a mistake to demand explanations =P

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 01:48:46AM -0300, Juan wrote:

On Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:28:21 -0500 grarpamp wrote:

...

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:48 PM, Razer wrote:

...

[?]

Well, those are the practical everyday questions people like Juan refuse to answer and explain the potential workings

That is not how it works =) A few points in no particular order :

a) I am under no obligation to explain anything

b) there are TONS of literature dealing with political philosophy

c) utilitarianism is a joke

d) at any rate, it's aggressors who should be doing the explaining. People who support the state's authority should provide the 'rational' basis for their obey-or-die 'philosophy'

Ack.

...

of to people who might then vote for his nobodys. If you want a vote you have to put it in everyday practical terms. No offense to the Juans's out there, just saying.

No problem. I just explained why it's a mistake to demand explanations =P

Problem is, we're not starting from a blank slate. We have aggressors, carrying guns, extorting money, as our starting point. What's being asked for (and no, I have no easy answers either), is how do we transition whilst minimizing interim aggression. And no, neither your nor nobody is obliged to answer that question. There's merely a hope that we might find a sane pathway out of this mess we are collectively in. Good luck,

On 11/16/2016 11:35 PM, juan wrote:

Yes, that is a big problem because people who've been indoctrinated since early childhood have no incentives to learn that what they've been taught is wrong.

Yes, and they're going to rape your wife and kill you... And there's no one, or fewer people in the society, that can or will, OR HAVE THE SKILLS and WHEREWITHAL to, resist that marauding. I'm asking a question that separates realists from armchair anarchists who like to 'smoke their opium' and dream of a better world. One they have no hand in actually making. Rr

On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:05:44 +1100 Zenaan Harkness wrote:

...

...

...

of to people who might then vote for his nobodys. If you want a vote you have to put it in everyday practical terms. No offense to the Juans's out there, just saying. No problem. I just explained why it's a mistake to demand explanations =P Problem is, we're not starting from a blank slate. Yes, that is a big problem because people who've been indoctrinated since early childhood have no incentives to learn that what they've been taught is wrong.

...

We have aggressors, carrying guns, extorting money, as our starting point.

What's being asked for (and no, I have no easy answers either), is how do we transition whilst minimizing interim aggression.

I can't imagine a 'collective' transition. Official 'collective' entities, basically nation-states, are always moving in the opposite direction. I suppose what is needed is a critical mass to set up something like the free NO-state project.

...

And no, neither your nor nobody is obliged to answer that question. There's merely a hope that we might find a sane pathway out of this mess we are collectively in.

See above...

...

Good luck,

On 11/17/2016 10:09 AM, juan wrote:

What question is that?

The Question restated for your benefit: Are you interested in this convo regarding what to do in the interim between the time the police go away and the time the MAJORITY of people take personal responsibility towards others welfare and safety, or just compulsively typing the first twisted thing that pop into your mind? Rr

On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:12:42 -0800 Razer wrote:

...

On 11/16/2016 11:35 PM, juan wrote:

...

Yes, that is a big problem because people who've been indoctrinated since early childhood have no incentives to learn that what they've been taught is wrong. Yes, and they're going to rape your wife and kill you...

That sounds like terrorist propaganda =)

...

And there's no one, or fewer people in the society, that can or will, OR HAVE THE SKILLS and WHEREWITHAL to, resist that marauding.

I'm asking a question that separates realists from armchair anarchists

What question is that?

...

who like to 'smoke their opium' and dream of a better world. One they have no hand in actually making.

Rr

On 11/17/2016 10:55 AM, juan 'answers the question' (Snigger) 'Obtusely':

On Thu, 17 Nov 2016 10:29:22 -0800 Razer wrote:

...

On 11/17/2016 10:09 AM, juan wrote:

...

What question is that? The Question restated for your benefit:

Are you interested in this convo regarding what to do in the interim between the time the police go away and the time the MAJORITY of people take personal responsibility towards others welfare and safety, or just compulsively typing the first twisted thing that pop into your mind?

There isn't any real question there.

But go ahead you great 'realist' - Enlighten us 'armchair anarchists' as to what really serious people like you do. Shove the communist manifesto up your ass maybe?

Trololololol! Rr

On 11/16/2016 11:05 PM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

What's being asked for (and no, I have no easy answers either), is how do we transition whilst minimizing interim aggression.

Eggs-ack-ly.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 01:48:46AM -0300, Juan wrote:

...

On Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:28:21 -0500 grarpamp wrote:

...

...

[?] Well, those are the practical everyday questions people

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:48 PM, Razer wrote: like Juan refuse to answer and explain the potential workings

That is not how it works =) A few points in no particular order :

a) I am under no obligation to explain anything

b) there are TONS of literature dealing with political philosophy

c) utilitarianism is a joke

d) at any rate, it's aggressors who should be doing the explaining. People who support the state's authority should provide the 'rational' basis for their obey-or-die 'philosophy' Ack.

...

...

of to people who might then vote for his nobodys. If you want a vote you have to put it in everyday practical terms. No offense to the Juans's out there, just saying. No problem. I just explained why it's a mistake to demand explanations =P Problem is, we're not starting from a blank slate.

We have aggressors, carrying guns, extorting money, as our starting point.

What's being asked for (and no, I have no easy answers either), is how do we transition whilst minimizing interim aggression.

And no, neither your nor nobody is obliged to answer that question. There's merely a hope that we might find a sane pathway out of this mess we are collectively in.

Good luck,

From: Mirimir On 11/16/2016 08:11 PM, grarpamp wrote:

On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Razer wrote:

...

...

If police vanished off the street this second what do you think might happen, realistically?

...

There'd be a whole lotta thugs rising up, and becoming dead thugs just as fast. More efficient than today's model of dethugging? Who knows. Don't be a thug. Consider the Philippines. Young mothers becoming assassins ;) Yes, that is a very interesting current example of such a thing.  My question is, are the right people being killed?Is it anybody associated with drugs that is dying, or is it just such people who are merely unpopular with the police? Consider this logic:  If a person is a bigtime drug dealer, just about the most 'threatening' thing to him is that the drugs he sells would be declared legal.  During my time in Federal prison, I explained on countless occasions that I am a libertarian, and if I had my way, all currently-illegal drugs would be decriminalized.  (Ideally, legalized with NO taxation!).   The prisoners I told this to 'got it':  Legalization would be the elimination of their income, their way of life.So, wouldn't a bigtime drug supplier be interested in making political donations to politicians who declare themselves unalterably opposed to drug legalization?  It would be by far the most logical use of a relatively small portion of his money, helping to guarantee that anti-drug laws would not be loosened.          Jim Bell

From: John Newman On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 04:17:12PM +0000, jim bell wrote:

...

Yes, that is a very interesting current example of such a thing. ??My question is, are the right people being killed?Is it anybody associated with drugs that is dying, or is it just such people who are merely unpopular with the police?

Yes, drug prohibition creates the black markets that creates the wildly inflated prices that attracts the narco mafias and other organized crime structures. 

BTW, after I'd sent my comment, I did an "oops".  I didn't mean to suggest that I approved, at all, of Duarte's policy.  ("right people being killed"). Quite the opposite. I meant, within the context of that extremist policy, were the people being killed only those that the policy defined?  Or were there exceptions?        Jim Bell

On Nov 19, 2016, at 2:10 AM, grarpamp wrote:

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On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:14 PM, John Newman wrote: wouldn't a bigtime drug supplier be interested in making political donations to politicians who declare themselves unalterably opposed to drug legalization? It would be by far the most logical use of a relatively small portion of his money

No, because while illegality produces high profit, it's also high risk of jail / death. Lobbying instead for a legal regime of business friendly regulation (unfree trade, franchise, licensure, exclusive zoning, etc) can produce good profit at low risk.

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why the average person would even a.) give a shit what I (or anyone) puts in their own body

Even if completely legal and unregulated without a single drug production distibution sale posession law on the books, that production distribution sale process has a cost. Govt will not give drugs away for free. And even if walmart stocks them next to the cheerios and milk, consumer must still buy them. But crackheads don't have jobs, so they'll still either steal them raising your prices, or steal from you to buy them, and jack up your taxes to cover their addicted, public intox, no life caring about aids transmitting, ass in medical. Avg people don't like that. Legality quiets some of the messy aspects, but is nowhere complete solution without solving addiction and health. Go invent synthehol.

Heavy abuse of alcohol is just as destructive as heavy use of any other drug. For people that want help, I totally support it. Said "crackhead" would have far less negative societal impact if drugs were legal and cheap. And even assuming he does run half crazy and get himself in trouble for theft - I still don't support the government mandating what said "crackhead" can put into his own body. It's none of my business, it's none of your business, it sure as fuck isn't big brothers business. Your whole description and line of reasoning reeks of reefer madness style bullshit - no pun intended. Also, they have invented "synthenol" - it's called MDMA ;) John

MDMA is 'designer methamphetamine Do you how fucked up you look Tweaker? Tweaker!Tweaker! Tweaker! But I'm a Raver! Tweaker!Tweaker! Tweaker! But I'm a HIPSTER! Tweaker!Tweaker! Tweaker! Fuck you pharmapoisons. I took the best L on the planet back in the 60s, and even THEN 99 percent of what was going around was ABSOLUTE GARBAGE. Now it's ALL garbage, and so is you delusion that it came from some Czechoslovakian lab where they have a secret stash of Ergotamine Tartrate, a warehouse full, and the Indole too! Number #35 Blue Sylvania bulb? Nah! The DEA and every other drug enforcement agency on the planet isn't going to notice when you order a case of them... Right. Sure. Here's someone who knew Owsley personally on the topic. March 15 2011 Travus T. Hipp Morning News & Commentary: Owsley, The Man Who 'Changed The Minds' Of An Entire Generation... Literally... Passes https://archive.org/details/tth_110315 Here's a synopsis. Owsley was a SPEEDFREAK, and the ONLY THING that made him different than any other cooker was HE TRIED THE SHIT BEFORE HE SOLD IT, instead of using YOU as the guinea pig. He knew shit about chemistry. His GF was studying at UCB and was mostly responsible for making sure he did it sort of right.... when he wasn't too spun. As Gil Scott-Heron put it the only problem with streetcorner chemists is they can't remember if it's a little bit of this, and little bit of this and a LOT of that... Or was that a littttlllle biiitttt offff thiiis and A lOT oF tHaT? Cued up ... Live in '83 right here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78tTKTkz778&feature=youtu.be&t=20m16s Rr Ps. His 'Peace Tabs' were goooooood! If you knew how to spot the fakes.

LOL. Amusing.. umm.. anecdote about Owsley :) MDMA was first synthesized by Merck I think early 20th century. Alexander Shulgin definitely tried it in the 70s. He has a whole book that came out a while later about all the dope he cooked up and tried on himself with his schedule 1 DEA license (he could "legally" cook anything he wanted up, and he _was_ a trained chemist). I was being flippant with my MDMA remark anyway ;) Although I think it does compare favorably to most other drugs.. pot is definitely more benign than ecstacy, but I don't really consider pot a drug. Also, and I don't really want to get off in the weeds here too much, but you can buy MDMA test kits pretty cheap, and use sites like pillreports, etc. John On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 08:07:52AM -0800, Razer wrote:

MDMA is 'designer methamphetamine

Do you how fucked up you look Tweaker?

Tweaker!Tweaker! Tweaker!

But I'm a Raver!

Tweaker!Tweaker! Tweaker!

But I'm a HIPSTER!

Tweaker!Tweaker! Tweaker!

Fuck you pharmapoisons. I took the best L on the planet back in the 60s, and even THEN 99 percent of what was going around was ABSOLUTE GARBAGE.

Now it's ALL garbage, and so is you delusion that it came from some Czechoslovakian lab where they have a secret stash of Ergotamine Tartrate, a warehouse full, and the Indole too! Number #35 Blue Sylvania bulb? Nah! The DEA and every other drug enforcement agency on the planet isn't going to notice when you order a case of them... Right. Sure.

Here's someone who knew Owsley personally on the topic.

March 15 2011 Travus T. Hipp Morning News & Commentary: Owsley, The Man Who 'Changed The Minds' Of An Entire Generation... Literally... Passes

https://archive.org/details/tth_110315

Here's a synopsis. Owsley was a SPEEDFREAK, and the ONLY THING that made him different than any other cooker was HE TRIED THE SHIT BEFORE HE SOLD IT, instead of using YOU as the guinea pig.

He knew shit about chemistry. His GF was studying at UCB and was mostly responsible for making sure he did it sort of right.... when he wasn't too spun.

As Gil Scott-Heron put it the only problem with streetcorner chemists is they can't remember if it's a little bit of this, and little bit of this and a LOT of that... Or was that a littttlllle biiitttt offff thiiis and A lOT oF tHaT?

Cued up ... Live in '83 right here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78tTKTkz778&feature=youtu.be&t=20m16s

Rr

Ps. His 'Peace Tabs' were goooooood! If you knew how to spot the fakes.

-- John

government mandating what said "crackhead" can put into his own body

Though I forgot to include 'use' law, it's clear I meant a fully legal environment without any such drug laws.

incarceration costs

You misread again, legal *drug* environment above has no such jail. OP implied drug laws... not laws for theft, assault, vehicular, or any other laws. All the latter laws are unlikely to be made softer anytime soon due to innocence of 'brain disease'... https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5dmffs/surgeon_general_issues_landmar... 'People give a shit', even excluding whether or not they're on some hate crusade or not, up to the point of enacting laws, whether stupid laws or not... because what other people do does affect them, directly and indirectly. Just like filling the atmosphere with soot drops out on Greenland warming ice raising your seas, in your lungs giving you cancer, etc.

It could even be subsidized

Never said it couldn't, in fact more complete approach involving addiction / health. The tax hating anti staters here won't go for reallocating any funds or subsidy.

All your hyperbole about “no life caring aids transmuting ass” is just so much bullshit.

Regardless of if they're aware of support options or not, some will care, others won't, or can't act on it, addiction is like that. No BS there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Shulgin

On Tue, 15 Nov 2016 02:20:22 -0500 grarpamp wrote:

Your nobody is not Juan's nobody.

"Nobody will solve your problems, vote for Nobody" - That's the common sense and anarchist approach. Rayzer's isn't.

"Chaos" is not identical to "change".  Nevertheless, "Chaos" is a state in which there is very low resistance to change.            Jim Bell From: Razer +10 Addenda: Americans are confused. They mistake chaos for change. On 11/09/2016 09:28 AM, Steve Kinney wrote: On 11/09/2016 02:58 AM, jim bell wrote:

What a relief!!! Thank heavens for leaks!!!

Meh.  I prefer Trump by a /small/ margin; better chaos and gridlock in DC than a massive, well coordinated murder machine IMO.  I'm sentimental:  I hate to see millions of people slaughtered so a handful of billionaires can keep growing their wealth & power right up to the collapse of our present civilization.  In the case of Trump vs. Clinton, better to roll the dice than accept a status quo that assures the highest obtainable body count. But I don't see a Yuge victory for the humans here, only a new set of problems that /may/ be more tractable than those presented by Clinton. I was rather shocked by the election results, because I have kept an eye on developments in election rigging over the years.  Given the aggregate power of entrenched interests sponsoring Clinton and the scale of the cash flows that Trump's election have placed in jeopardy, I did not expect a Trump win to be permitted.  Maybe someday we will find out what happened behind the scenes - and whether the FBI director's strange behavior had anything to do with it. Before election day chop wood, carry water, smash the State. After election day chop wood, carry water, smash the State. :o)

From: Razer Subject: Re: Ding Dong the Wicked Witch is DEAD!!! On 11/09/2016 11:13 AM, jim bell wrote:

"Chaos" is not identical to "change".  Nevertheless, "Chaos" is a state in which there is very low resistance to change.   >                   Jim Bell

I disagree. The tendency of people confronted with Chaos is to embrace what they knew did work and attempt to restore it... traditionalism... ie. >One of the features of Fascism. No change if it went in that direction. If that's the case, then that ISN'T "chaos", at least not yet.             Jim Bell

From: Razer +10 Addenda: Americans are confused. They mistake chaos for change. On 11/09/2016 09:28 AM, Steve Kinney wrote: On 11/09/2016 02:58 AM, jim bell wrote:

What a relief!!! Thank heavens for leaks!!!

Meh.  I prefer Trump by a /small/ margin; better chaos and gridlock in DC than a massive, well coordinated murder machine IMO.  I'm sentimental:  I hate to see millions of people slaughtered so a handful of billionaires can keep growing their wealth & power right up to the collapse of our present civilization.  In the case of Trump vs. Clinton, better to roll the dice than accept a status quo that assures the highest obtainable body count. But I don't see a Yuge victory for the humans here, only a new set of problems that /may/ be more tractable than those presented by Clinton. I was rather shocked by the election results, because I have kept an eye on developments in election rigging over the years.  Given the aggregate power of entrenched interests sponsoring Clinton and the scale of the cash flows that Trump's election have placed in jeopardy, I did not expect a Trump win to be permitted.  Maybe someday we will find out what happened behind the scenes - and whether the FBI director's strange behavior had anything to do with it. Before election day chop wood, carry water, smash the State. After election day chop wood, carry water, smash the State. :o)

On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 08:47:00AM +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

On Wed, Nov 09, 2016 at 07:58:01AM +0000, jim bell wrote:

...

What a relief!!!Thank heavens for leaks!!!         Jim Bell

..

http://thesaker.is/trump-elected-as-president-risks-and-opportunities/

.. "So it has happened: Hillary did not win! I say that instead of saying that “Trump won” because I consider the former even more important than the latter. Why? Because I have no idea whatsoever what Trump will do next. I do, however, have an excellent idea of what Hillary would have done: war with Russia. Trump most likely won’t do that. In fact, he specifically said in his acceptance speech: I want to tell the world community that while we will always put America’s interests first, we will deal fairly with everyone, with everyone — all people and all other nations. We will seek common ground, not hostility; partnership, not conflict. And Putin’s reply was immediate: We heard the statements he made as candidate for president expressing a desire to restore relations between our countries. We realise and understand that this will not be an easy road given the level to which our relations have degraded today, regrettably. But, as I have said before, it is not Russia’s fault that our relations with the United States have reached this point. Russia is ready to and seeks a return to full-format relations with the United States. Let me say again, we know that this will not be easy, but are ready to take this road, take steps on our side and do all we can to set Russian-US relations back on a stable development track. This would benefit both the Russian and American peoples and would have a positive impact on the general climate in international affairs, given the particular responsibility that Russia and the US share for maintaining global stability and security. ... [Unfortunately the deep swamp war, DUMB and otherwise, continues, though there are signs of a better future...] ..

And that names the biggest winner (besides Trump) in all this: Wikileaks and Julian Assange, putting the lame stream media to shame.

http://theduran.com/breakdown-biggest-winners-and-losers-of-the-2016-us-pres...

http://theduran.com/list-biggest-election-winners-losers/

http://theduran.com/assad-must-go-who-must-go-goodbye-cameron-obama-hillary-...

http://theduran.com/trumps-victory-speech-message-peace-with-historic-signif... " the most crucial sentence was this: “We will get along with all the nations willing to get along with us”. I have waited all my life for an American President to utter such words. "

There are minor rumblings of detente (Trump rang Putin - might sound small, but a beginnin's a beginnin, muffaluckkas), and though Duh Swamp be very well entrenched, the mill grinds ('patriot' Flynn). "we will get along with all the nations willing to get along with us" Although the USA is far down the ladder of moral standing these days, for the time being Trump is still alive (unlike JFK) and hope remains ... the possibility for the North American Union otherwise known as the USA, to begin to rebuild a moral standing. Durham: "My -eyes-, nigger! Look in to muh -eyes-! You is face music!" [We hope!] USN Mercy was a washout (due to ICMTs - Inter-Continental Maglev Trains ??) so ... let's pray the DUMB wars favour justice, righteousness and truth. If needs be, a complete severance with the fallen ... Love must be upheld. Murder, blackmail and torture must be denounced and stopped, must be brought to account. Book, non-fiction, 1936: Darkness over Tibet; mighty interestin', mug whigs.. dem fallen' angels, man, like wow ... https://archive.org/details/DarknessOverTibetTIllion/page/n7/mode/2up Darkness Over Tibet Excerpts and Commentary by Laura Knight-Jadczyk https://cassiopaea.org/cass/tibet.htm Remember, muh grits: We fight not against men ... but against principalities. https://lovetruthsite.wordpress.com/2016/11/15/for-we-fight-not-against-men-... Your/ our, time, is now. Stand. Live your principles. Live your rights. Pray. Except that you live the right, live truth, live those righteous principles of justice, ... you are otherwise compliant. Explicitly, or implicitly/ tacitly, you are compliant. Stop blaming one another, albeit hold to truth and justice. Spend care for the seemingly trivial or "inconsequential" words spoken in anger or spite or any of the other innumerable "lower" states of one's being .. strive for a 'higher' path, a worthy action, that dignity before the incomprehensible grandeur of our very existence and being and capacities of life .. Stand. Stand for truth, for principles, for the logically inherent sanity in the stand by those staunch in the face of despotic empire, those who sit in their prison cells hoping ... that we awaken, we see, we arise and act in the pursuit of justice for all. Live truth muffas! Live truth or die in darkness. May the forces of righteousness be with you. May the angels on high be behind you, vigilant in support of your stand in this world, our intention to bring 'heaven' to earth, to live the greatest dignity we can conceive, before our maker and not before men. Cerate your world my brothers and sisters, cerate your world,