what is "Herd Immunity"?

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Zenaan Harkness

31 Jul 2020 31 Jul '20

6:44 a.m.

Had a friend annoyed at masks the other day, complaining heavily "muh human right to shop at the supermarket without wearing a mask!" Interlocutor: So you'd prefer herd immunity? Complainer: Of course! Weren't you even listening?! I: Well, do you know what herd immunity means? What is it? C: Ah, may be not? What is herd immunity? I: If you survive, you survive; those who die, are left to die, the rest of the herd is immune… C: <silence> I: So you've heard a little about the Spanish flu and the Black Death, right? C: Yeah.. I: Well, we're the survivors - we are that part of the herd that did not die.

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Peter Fairbrother

31 Jul 31 Jul

10:02 a.m.

On 31/07/2020 07:44, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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Had a friend annoyed at masks the other day, complaining heavily "muh human right to shop at the supermarket without wearing a mask!"

Interlocutor: So you'd prefer herd immunity?

Complainer: Of course! Weren't you even listening?!

I: Well, do you know what herd immunity means? What is it?

C: Ah, may be not? What is herd immunity?

I: If you survive, you survive; those who die, are left to die, the rest of the herd is immune…

C: <silence>

I: So you've heard a little about the Spanish flu and the Black Death, right?

C: Yeah..

I: Well, we're the survivors - we are that part of the herd that did not die.

Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, that has nothing to do with herd immunity - it's actually evolution. (herd immunity is when sufficient members of a herd are immune that there aren't enough non-immune members to spread a disease - the non-immune members could still get the disease, but there isn't anyone around who's infected to give it to them) Peter Fairbrother

jim bell

7:05 p.m.

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(herd immunity is when sufficient members of a herd are immune that

On Friday, July 31, 2020, 03:02:38 AM PDT, Peter Fairbrother wrote: there aren't enough non-immune members to spread a disease - the non-immune members could still get the disease, but there isn't anyone around who's infected to give it to them)

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Peter Fairbrother

"Herd immunity" can also be obtained in part by vaccines, of course. And these days, that is the usual way. As for COVID-19: There will come a point, I think, where more damage will be done by failing to use vaccines, than will likely be done using them. Maybe that point is already in the past. As long as there are people willing to volunteer to take the risk of getting vaccinated with these new COVID-19 vaccine candidates, I think society should take up their offer. Test the vaccines to the point where they are not likely to cause major harm, and then give them to tens of thousands of volunteers. Monitor their conditions. Maybe even do "challenge trials", meaning deliberately expose some of them to the virus, and see if they get sick. If no major negatives show up, start vaccinating hundreds of thousands, even millions. Keep monitoring. Those vaccines that 'work', we will soon be able to distinguish from those that don't. Jim Bell

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

10:21 p.m.

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 19:05:51 +0000 (UTC) jim bell VOMITED:

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As long as there are people willing to volunteer to take the risk of getting vaccinated with these new COVID-19 vaccine candidates, I think society should take up their offer.

yes, Jim. 'society' should... - wait, you've now reached the latest stage of collectivistic fascism eh? You now think 'society' is an agent? maybe it's time for you to retire...

Mirimir

1 Aug 1 Aug

12:27 a.m.

On 07/31/2020 03:21 PM, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 19:05:51 +0000 (UTC) jim bell VOMITED:

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As long as there are people willing to volunteer to take the risk of getting vaccinated with these new COVID-19 vaccine candidates, I think society should take up their offer.

yes, Jim. 'society' should... - wait, you've now reached the latest stage of collectivistic fascism eh? You now think 'society' is an agent?

I agree that "society" is vague. In most places, it means "governments", given that they regulate vaccine testing, and typically need to jawbone/bribe pharmaceutical firms to develop vaccines (which are usually not very profitable, and litigation magnets). But I suppose, in your happy anarchy, it could mean whatever cabrón develops some vaccine. <snip>

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

12:47 a.m.

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 17:27:22 -0700 Mirimir wrote:

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But I suppose, in your happy anarchy, it could mean whatever cabrón develops some vaccine.

are you mocking anarchy on an anarchist mailing list? Though of course, in practice, this list is a statist shithole, and is its own infinite self-parody, thanks to Jim and all the rest of technofascists. Hey, let's have more termal cameras, retardphone tracking and 'vaccines' because of the latest flu PSYOP. STILL, if people on this list were actually 'cypherpunks', instead of techno-fascist posers, then your comment would be as out of place as it should be.

Mirimir

2:14 a.m.

On 07/31/2020 05:47 PM, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 17:27:22 -0700 Mirimir wrote:

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But I suppose, in your happy anarchy, it could mean whatever cabrón develops some vaccine.

are you mocking anarchy on an anarchist mailing list? Though of course, in practice, this list is a statist shithole, and is its own infinite self-parody, thanks to Jim and all the rest of technofascists. Hey, let's have more termal cameras, retardphone tracking and 'vaccines' because of the latest flu PSYOP.

I'm mocking the idea that anarchy is workable for the existing population, generally. I do live in a community that's fundamentally anarchic, although there is coordination and oversight through circles with modified consensus. And it generally works pretty well. However, it's a hugely self-selected community, with an explicit social contract, and members who don't play well get shunned and booted. I really don't think that such a community would work for random sheeple. So what's your path to anarchy? Love? Education? Kill the assholes?

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STILL, if people on this list were actually 'cypherpunks', instead of techno-fascist posers, then your comment would be as out of place as it should be.

There are no rules here, my friend :)

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

4:25 a.m.

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 19:14:24 -0700 Mirimir wrote:

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I'm mocking the idea that anarchy is workable for the existing population, generally.

so who the fuck you think are? =) Oh yes, you're an enlightened elitist who thinks he's way above the 'existing population', though not in moral terms of course, because he's an 'utilitarian'.

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However, it's a hugely self-selected community, with an explicit social contract, and members who don't play well get shunned and booted. I really don't think that such a community would work for random sheeple.

So that's your argument against personal rights eh. Wait, your little community tale, whether real or imaginary, is not an argument. Then again, utilitarianism is even less of an argument.

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So what's your path to anarchy? Love? Education? Kill the assholes?

That's not the subject at hand.

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STILL, if people on this list were actually 'cypherpunks', instead of techno-fascist posers, then your comment would be as out of place as it should be.

There are no rules here, my friend :)

Of course there are rules. Basic logical rules. The pertinent rule in this case being : if you're not an anarchist, then you're not a cypherpunk, so what are you doing here? And just in case I need to spell out the painfully obvious. That's not a 'rule' to be 'enforced' by some 'owner' of some 'server'. So tell me, what do you think about the demographics of the flu farce in germany? What's your opinion as Englightened Science Worshipper? Do you want more thermal cameras like our Agent Jim Bell? Here, some basic arithmetic : https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-July/081633.html

Mirimir

5:33 a.m.

On 07/31/2020 09:25 PM, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 19:14:24 -0700 Mirimir wrote:

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I'm mocking the idea that anarchy is workable for the existing population, generally.

so who the fuck you think are? =)

Oh yes, you're an enlightened elitist who thinks he's way above the 'existing population', though not in moral terms of course, because he's an 'utilitarian'.

I'm fundamentally a hedonist, in that having fun is my major goal in life. But yes, I'm utilitarian. And a scientist. I didn't say "above". Indeed, I'm among the least community minded here. Right on the edge. It's just that I'm such a charming guy ;)

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However, it's a hugely self-selected community, with an explicit social contract, and members who don't play well get shunned and booted. I really don't think that such a community would work for random sheeple.

So that's your argument against personal rights eh. Wait, your little community tale, whether real or imaginary, is not an argument. Then again, utilitarianism is even less of an argument.

There's no right to be a member of a voluntary organization.

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So what's your path to anarchy? Love? Education? Kill the assholes?

That's not the subject at hand.

Who are you to define the "subject at hand"? And it's a simple question, no? If you don't have an answer, I guess that I default to mocking you for being uselessly dogmatic.

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STILL, if people on this list were actually 'cypherpunks', instead of techno-fascist posers, then your comment would be as out of place as it should be.

There are no rules here, my friend :)

Of course there are rules. Basic logical rules. The pertinent rule in this case being : if you're not an anarchist, then you're not a cypherpunk, so what are you doing here?

So you say.

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And just in case I need to spell out the painfully obvious. That's not a 'rule' to be 'enforced' by some 'owner' of some 'server'.

So tell me, what do you think about the demographics of the flu farce in germany? What's your opinion as Englightened Science Worshipper? Do you want more thermal cameras like our Agent Jim Bell? Here, some basic arithmetic :

I don't much care. We won't know how it will go for a year or two. It could go away, or it could get worse, or another one could come along. But human technological society is doomed, one way or another.

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https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-July/081633.html

Being over 70, I'd rather not be surrounded by masses of infected idiots. And damn, I'm glad that I don't live in Texas or California. Or the South, generally. However, I do see the logic of letting old folks die, and trashing the economy less. But then, a trashed economy releases less CO2, so maybe that's a good thing. So overall, I don't care much.

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

8:03 a.m.

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 22:33:58 -0700 Mirimir wrote:

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I'm fundamentally a hedonist, in that having fun is my major goal in life. But yes, I'm utilitarian. And a scientist.

hedonism is great. As long as you don't violate personal rights to get your fun, of course.

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I didn't say "above". Indeed, I'm among the least community minded here. Right on the edge. It's just that I'm such a charming guy ;)

Well, you don't think the 'masses' can govern themselves, so it kinda follows you think they must be governed? I assumed you pictured yourself among the ruling class rather than the ruled class, but maybe that was a wrong assumption on my part? You're saying you personaly need to be ordered around by politicians and cops because you're like a helpless child?

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However, it's a hugely self-selected community, with an explicit social contract, and members who don't play well get shunned and booted. I really don't think that such a community would work for random sheeple.

So that's your argument against personal rights eh. Wait, your little community tale, whether real or imaginary, is not an argument. Then again, utilitarianism is even less of an argument.

There's no right to be a member of a voluntary organization.

I didn't say there is. I mentioned personal rights because they are the political principle in opposition to utilitarianism. Utilitarians think that people should be ordered around and forced to do things that utilitarians consider 'useful'. Slavery is a perfectly utilitarian institution because slaves are useful to their masters. The FDA is great because it 'protects' poor consumers (no, no, the FDA isn't the handmaiden of big pharma, not at all). Etc.

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So what's your path to anarchy? Love? Education? Kill the assholes?

That's not the subject at hand.

Who are you to define the "subject at hand"?

And it's a simple question, no? If you don't have an answer, I guess that I default to mocking you for being uselessly dogmatic.

There's nothing dogmatic about telling the authoritarians, social planners, technocrats and the like to fuck off. It's the most basic, libertarian position. My personal plan is to counter propaganda, and it's what I'm doing at this moment. Apart from that, I don't have a path to overthrow the argie government or any other government. Wait, let me count my pocket money. Hm, no, I don't have enough resources to start a war against the state at the moment. In more general terms the path to anarchy requires some kind of critical mass to be reached. How? I don't know.

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STILL, if people on this list were actually 'cypherpunks', instead of techno-fascist posers, then your comment would be as out of place as it should be.

There are no rules here, my friend :)

Of course there are rules. Basic logical rules. The pertinent rule in this case being : if you're not an anarchist, then you're not a cypherpunk, so what are you doing here?

So you say.

so what do you say? cypherpunks advocate tyranny?, sorry! I mean, enlightened technocratic government?

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And just in case I need to spell out the painfully obvious. That's not a 'rule' to be 'enforced' by some 'owner' of some 'server'.

So tell me, what do you think about the demographics of the flu farce in germany? What's your opinion as Englightened Science Worshipper? Do you want more thermal cameras like our Agent Jim Bell? Here, some basic arithmetic :

I don't much care. We won't know how it will go for a year or two.

that doesn't sound too scientific. There's some propaganda...I mean, 'evidence' coming, for instance, from the german government, which I'd assume to be relatively unbiased (apart from their obvious pro-government bias). The people who allegedly die from the flu is a small minority, and their age shows that they are actually dying...of old age, not because of some 'deadly' 'new' 'very contagious' 'pandemic'.

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It could go away, or it could get worse, or another one could come along. But human technological society is doomed, one way or another.

...
https://lists.cpunks.org/pipermail/cypherpunks/2020-July/081633.html

Being over 70, I'd rather not be surrounded by masses of infected idiots. And damn, I'm glad that I don't live in Texas or California. Or the South, generally. However, I do see the logic of letting old folks die,

nobody is 'letting old folks die'. Then again, if the 'humanitarians' are so concerned about human lives they should you know...ban guns...ban knives...ban forks...ban cars...ban alcohol...ban sugar!...ban THEIR OWN FUCKING WARS..and EVERYTHING ELSE. Wait, an easy reductio ad absurdum shows that this fascist garbage isn't about 'protecting' old folks, or anybody else.

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and trashing the economy less.

FUCK the economy. The farce has nothing to do with 'protecting' people or with the economy directly. Though one of the objectives may be indeed to trash the economy, or rather, TRASH everybody except big businesses. Yeah, that sounds like a plan.

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But then, a trashed economy releases less CO2, so maybe that's a good thing.

So overall, I don't care much.

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

6:16 p.m.

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 22:33:58 -0700 Mirimir wrote:

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and trashing the economy less.

here's one sample illustrating how 'the economy' is being 'trashed' https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52238932 "Coronavirus pandemic: EU agrees €500bn rescue package" Those are 500,000 millions of newly stolen money that govcorp is 'granting' to govcorp. So the flu farce looks like a pretty convenient excuse for more govcorp looting eh? Well, we can thank government agents like Jim Bell and his fucking lies for providing such an excuse.

jim bell

1:32 a.m.

On Friday, July 31, 2020, 03:11:42 PM PDT, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote: On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 19:05:51 +0000 (UTC) jim bell VOMITED:

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As long as there are people willing to volunteer to take the risk of getting vaccinated with these new COVID-19 vaccine candidates, I think society should take up their offer.

> yes, Jim. 'society' should... - wait, you've now reached the latest stage of collectivistic fascism eh? You now think 'society' is an agent? > maybe it's time for you to retire... What word should I have used?The reality is that COVID-19 exists now. It is being dealt with, in part, by "governments". Organized institutions. Why shouldn't I try to make suggestions that recognize reality, at least in 'COVID-19 time', over the next few months and years. Jim Bell

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

1:59 a.m.

On Sat, 1 Aug 2020 01:32:52 +0000 (UTC) jim bell wrote:

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On Friday, July 31, 2020, 03:11:42 PM PDT, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 19:05:51 +0000 (UTC) jim bell VOMITED:

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As long as there are people willing to volunteer to take the risk of getting vaccinated with these new COVID-19 vaccine candidates, I think society should take up their offer.

> yes, Jim. 'society' should... - wait, you've now reached the latest stage of collectivistic fascism eh? You now think 'society' is an agent?

> maybe it's time for you to retire...

What word should I have used?

The problem is not the word, but the concept. Pretty much by definition, the people who reify 'society' like you did, are the socialists. They are the ones always babbling about how 'society'(meaning they, the socialist planners) should do this or that.

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The reality is that COVID-19 exists now.

No. The reality is that the flu is being used by governments as an excuse to commit (further) violations of personal rights on a planetary scale. And you are a fucking accomplice.

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It is being dealt with, in part, by "governments". Organized institutions. Why shouldn't I try to make suggestions that recognize reality,

Your views are detached from reality. They are FUCKING LIES.

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at least in 'COVID-19 time', over the next few months and years. Jim Bell

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

12:55 a.m.

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 11:02:06 +0100 Peter Fairbrother wrote:

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Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, that has nothing to do with herd immunity - it's actually evolution.

It is neither. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Germany#By_age_and_gender 95% of the alleged 'victims' of the wu-flu are older than 60. 85% of the alleged 'victims' of the wu-flu are older than 70. 64% of the alleged 'victims' of the wu-flu are older than 80. In other words, the older you get, the higher your chances of dying...of anything. I know this is shocking news for the Highly Learned Scientists of this fine mailing list. To further illustrate how pathetically ridiculous the wu-flu farce is : Number of people who allgedly died of the flu with ages 40 or younger : 31 Number of people who allgedly died of the flu, OLDER THAN FUCKING 100 : 50

Robert Hettinga

31 Jul 31 Jul

1:05 p.m.

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On Jul 31, 2020, at 2:44 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

I: Well, we're the survivors - we are that part of the herd that did not die.

And the survival rate of Covid-19 is somewhere north of 99 percent. I’ll take those odds. Also, the ‘precautionary principle’ is bunk. Also, see also, Hayek and dirigisme. Cheers, RAH

Peter Fairbrother

8:07 p.m.

On 31/07/2020 14:05, Robert Hettinga wrote:

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On Jul 31, 2020, at 2:44 AM, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

I: Well, we're the survivors - we are that part of the herd that did not die.

And the survival rate of Covid-19 is somewhere north of 99 percent.

Er, no. It's actually about 97-98% overall, more for some subgroups like the old, fat or lung-y, less for the young. And that doesn't include the later deaths due to the long-term organ damage which occurs in 5-10% of cases. Just sayin' Peter Fairbrother

Robert Hettinga

1 Aug 1 Aug

3:30 p.m.

Let’s try this with a proper cc, now, shall we?

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On Jul 31, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Peter Fairbrother wrote:

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And the survival rate of Covid-19 is somewhere north of 99 percent.

Er, no. It's actually about 97-98% overall

*yawns from pedant-boredom…*

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

31 Jul 31 Jul

4:49 p.m.

On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 16:44:45 +1000 Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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Had a friend annoyed at masks the other day, complaining heavily "muh human right to shop at the supermarket without wearing a mask!"

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I: If you survive, you survive; those who die, are left to die, the rest of the herd is immune…

lawl - the worthless piece of shit harkness is now playing the snowflake card! He's gone from white supremacist trump cocksucker to 'compassionate' 'humanitarian' worried about the 'welfare' of the 'herd'.

Zig the N.g

1 Aug 1 Aug

4:11 a.m.

New subject: FJWs: Facial Justice Warriors unite! -- Re: what is "Herd Immunity"?

On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 01:49:20PM -0300, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

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On Fri, 31 Jul 2020 16:44:45 +1000 Zenaan Harkness wrote:

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Had a friend annoyed at masks the other day, complaining heavily "muh human right to shop at the supermarket without wearing a mask!"

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I: If you survive, you survive; those who die, are left to die, the rest of the herd is immune…

lawl - I really can't compliment you enough on your dry approach to encouraging others to consider alt views regardless with a little light hearted comedy usually sprinkled with a fact ... IF you squint hard enough :)

<tftfy> Well gee, Juanagger, I'll leave it to Z to respond to your overly flattering compliments, he's such a humble fellow we can be sure you've really embarrassed him this time :D Also, just love the way you always look for the comedy in a situation, it's really edifying, at this rate you might even get _me_ to be humble. I know, I know, <shucks> don't mention it brother... Whilst we're on the topic of edifying comedy to lighten our collective load, Andrew Dickens coins a phrase I just know you're going to chuckle over … Gat any Facial Justice Warriors down in Mozambiquador where yu from, muh nagger? Have at 'em wid dis tasty deeish: In a world of poverty and injustice, mask-hating Facial Justice Warriors have finally found a cause worth fighting for https://www.rt.com/op-ed/496555-mask-hating-facial-justice-warriors-covid/ With limited time and passion to give to causes, it’s crucial we choose ours well. So well done Facial Justice Warriors for ignoring other issues until a fight worth fighting came along – being asked to occasionally wear a mask Bob Geldof once spoke of compassion fatigue: the notion that we have limited emotional resources when it comes to ‘doing our bit’ for a good cause. We can’t help everyone all the time, so it’s important to choose your battles wisely. This is why I salute the Facial Justice Warriors (FJWs), a term I have coined for those people tirelessly and selflessly campaigning against rarely-enforced laws requiring them to wear a face mask for a few minutes if they happen to be, say, in a shop or on a bus, in an attempt to slow the spread of Covid-19. While others have spent their precious energy campaigning against things like poverty, crime and injustice, the FJWs have bided their time, waiting for a really serious issue to trigger their activism. And now they have it: an annoying dress code. We’ve had anti-mask marches, we’ve had Bible-quoting mask truthers marching through supermarkets (warning: the truth may differ from truther to truther), we’ve had a wave of maskless selfies from brave FJWs risking the wrath of apathetic teenage shop assistants and, of course, we’ve had the FJW online battalions warning us of the #plandemic. https://twitter.com/StandUpX2/status/1287362305324457985 And what warriors they are ...

Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0

4:35 a.m.

New subject: FJWs: Facial Justice Warriors unite! -- Re: what is "Herd Immunity"?

On Sat, 1 Aug 2020 14:11:54 +1000 "Zig the N.g" wrote:

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Also, just love the way you always look for the comedy in a situation,

yeah, too bad I can't find any in your posts. Maybe you didn't eat enough bat soup today? Are you too afraid that the chinese will steal all your loot? You're struggling to pay your KKK membership? Maybe you need to suck more jew-jesus cock.

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participants (7)

jim bell
Mirimir
Peter Fairbrother
Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0
Robert Hettinga
Zenaan Harkness
Zig the N.g