Keepers of the keys
---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:04:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com> To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> Cc: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises" Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the US Courts? That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible privacy concerns. One has the sense that once they get into the hands of the varius agencies, they'll get back out. Best, Joe Shea Editor-in-Chief The American Reporter joeshea@netcom.com http://www.newshare.com:9999
At 12:45 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote, quoting Joe Shea, for those of you who can't follow attributions very well:
Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the US Courts? That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible privacy concerns. One has the sense that once they get into the hands of the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
Best,
Joe Shea Editor-in-Chief The American Reporter joeshea@netcom.com http://www.newshare.com:9999
Judges are human, too. "Agencies don't break the law -- people do". The next Ames could be a judge on any Federal court. Frankly, I find it mildly amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 03:25 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
At 1:36 PM -0700 7/18/97, Lizard wrote:>Frankly, I find it mildly
amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?
Why not go one step further and get the strong crypto supporters in the Senate to tack on an ammendment to the McCain-Kerrey-bill forcing the FBI and our most secret security agencies to use the very same government/industry escrow entitites (but not any of the intelligence organizations themselves) for all their encrypted data storage and communications traffic and requiring regular GOA compliance reviews.
If you want to diddle with GAK provisions to make them just a little more palatable (honey to make the pill go down?), I prefer my old one from 1993 (and 4 and 5 and 6 ...). Have the key split 12 ways, by XOR, so you need all 12, all have to agree the desire is justified and all can do whatever they want with the information that the key request came in and was or was not satisfied (by them): 1) ACLU 2) NRA 3) Republican Nat'l Committee 4) Democratic Nat'l Committee 5) N Y Times 6) Washington Post 7) Christian Coalition 8) Libertarian Party 9) FBI 10) NSA 11) Speaker of the House of Representatives 12) U S Supreme Court Deliver requests by US Postal Service. Have each session key released individually (by having the sender split the session key 12 ways and encrypt each piece under the public key of a different agency listed above). All requests include the name of the target and the reason for the suspicion. Since all the above can be trusted, there will be no compromise of law enforcement objectives. - Carl -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM9AdCVQXJENzYr45AQGVPgP+LULZPUSQB+xOm8nv5RfNCnAPy3XgK4vR rSxTuVw2kS/xVSb/gKNNfA5E4Eb+B/2H9zylfOe8Sz3ki5kWoP0xJvXhNIikNFb4 +fTJFClfWbONYag01kLQRjYiXvcVN+T6oH4s8490R2rgTpRebSG5opPMLaBTSpI8 R292Uw4719c= =4+Ph -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Carl M. Ellison cme@cybercash.com http://www.clark.net/pub/cme | |CyberCash, Inc. http://www.cybercash.com/ | |207 Grindall Street PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 | |Baltimore MD 21230-4103 T:(410) 727-4288 F:(410)727-4293 | +------------------------------------------------------------------+
At 3:25 PM -0700 7/18/97, Steve Schear wrote:
At 1:36 PM -0700 7/18/97, Lizard wrote:>Frankly, I find it mildly
amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?
Why not go one step further and get the strong crypto supporters in the Senate to tack on an ammendment to the McCain-Kerrey-bill forcing the FBI and our most secret security agencies to use the very same government/industry escrow entitites (but not any of the intelligence organizations themselves) for all their encrypted data storage and communications traffic and requiring regular GOA compliance reviews.
Beware this line of reasoning. The fundamental reason why I will not turn over my keys, my diaries, my tapes, my writings to some third party has nothing to do with this sort of issue. I really don't care if the Feds escrow their keys with the Pope...my keys will *not* be given to anyone other than whom I choose to give them to. Period. All of this brainstorming about who might be the best choice to hold "escrowed" keys, a la the reporter stooge Shea, or about requiring the Feds to use the same escrow system, misses this basic point. And plays into their hands. Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued? --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote: [usual rant deleted]
Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
Amazing. Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel. However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this nuance. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote: [usual rant deleted]
Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
Amazing. Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this nuance.
The patriotism quote has null benefit because it can be used against anyone that has "patriotic" principles that are different than yours. Thus all patriots are scoundrels when they disagree with you. This is the same as name calling. Re: Tim May's quote. May is pointing out the truism that the world is full of weak-minded fools. This is the essential problem of the illusory democracy that we live in today. Since in our illusory democracy, the people falsely believe they've excercised their will via "the vote". The reality is that the sheeple, lulled into veritable unconsciouness with an unending stream of monday-night sports, the Home Shopping Channel (TM) and Beavis and Butthead couldn't care a less as long as they feed on the media/social security/propaganda tit. Their personal opinions, thorougly pre-chewed and digested are spoon-fed to them through a port in the side of their head labeled "fear". May is just one of the people who has awoken from the anesthesia (self-induced or not). We have met the enemy and he is us. "There is no one so thoroughly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free." (unknown) Jim Burnes jim.burnes@ssds.com
At 8:51 AM -0700 7/19/97, Marshall Clow wrote:
At 7:43 AM -0700 7/19/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote: [usual rant deleted]
Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
Amazing. Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this nuance.
I think Tim is thinking of:
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
which, of course, was written by Jefferson.
I wasn't giving any specific quote--I was referring to the general principles. Apparently Kent Crispin, whom I blissfully killfile, is a literalist. Some would say anal-retentive. Can there be any doubt what the reaction of the Founders and other patriots would be were they to be transported to our modern era and learn that there are proposals that all citizen-units are to be required to deliver the keys (and hence the contents) for their most private communications to the King? Er, I mean, "the Government." All in the name of stopping "subversion" and other bad things? Jefferson's revolution every 20 or so years would certainly qualify as subversion...no doubt Jefferson would be interested to learn that the Government proposes and end to all such plottings. No doubt the government of Myanmar (Burma) will be anxious to have the escrowed keys of the rebels in the jungles. (I pointed this out to Phil Zimmermann and other PGP, Inc. employees at a Cypherpunks meeting several months ago, as Phil and others described mounting pressures to make PGP acceptable for government purchase orders, and "discussions" PGP, Inc. was having with government bodies.) Recall the "Enemies List" I posted several months back...basically, there are hundreds and hundreds of classes of people who are enemies of various governments. Jews, rebels, IRA, Mormons, Scientologists, Red Brigade, Militia of Montana, and on and on. All of these groups would feel the brunt of any key escrow policies here or abroad. (You do all know, I presume, that wiretaps and surveillance can be gotten without a normal court order if _any_ foreign contact is suspected? Cf. details on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, FISA, the special court meeting in Arlington, VA, and even more recent, sweeping legislation a few years ago, the Anti-Terrorism Act of 1995 (or language similar to this). It basically gave new sweeping powers to surveil and wiretap any organizations or persons suspected of supporting terrorist organizations....I'd say this makes the Cypherpunks list and all those on it eligible for warrantless surveillance. As if we didn't know this. Whether the Feds bother is another matter, of course. But they could.) And speaking of quotes, Ben Franklin had a pretty good one with his quote about those favoring security over liberty deserving neither. BTW, notice how in the comments of reporter stooge Shea, and weapons lab stooge Crispin, the debate has shifted back to _domestic_ key escrow? Shea was talking about stopping crimes by requiring keys be escrowed with Circuit Court judges--clearly he was talking about domestic key escrow. How many Amendments would this be in violation of? The First, by proscribing that only certain forms of speech (escrowed key forms) are acceptable. The Fourth, by violating the "secure in one's papers and possessions" (or similar) language, as key escrow would let any bored clerk or snooping agent examine one's papers. The Fifth, against compelled testimony against oneself. And probably others. But I'm sure we can count on the EFF, ECPA, EPIC, and other industry groups to craft a reasonable compromise which will ensure continuing profits to corporate sponsors while eviscerating the rights of ordinary Americans. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
On Sat, Jul 19, 1997 at 09:35:41AM -0700, Tim May wrote:
At 8:51 AM -0700 7/19/97, Marshall Clow wrote:
At 7:43 AM -0700 7/19/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote: [usual rant deleted]
Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
Amazing. Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this nuance.
I think Tim is thinking of:
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
which, of course, was written by Jefferson.
I wasn't giving any specific quote--I was referring to the general principles.
The general principle Tim espouses is, apparently, "Kill all who oppose, and anyone else remotely associated" -- witness his calls to use the "nuclear disinfectant" on Washington, for example. This is not, I believe, what Jefferson had in mind. However, I consider such a sentiment either insane or not intended seriously. Assuming Tim is not insane, then he doesn't intend his statements to be taken seriously.
Apparently Kent Crispin, whom I blissfully killfile, is a literalist. Some would say anal-retentive.
I can't resist pointing out what is usually associated with bliss. :-) I must point out, also, that I agree with Tim that GAK is bad. However, I believe that his rants actually do more harm than good to the cause.
Can there be any doubt what the reaction of the Founders and other patriots would be were they to be transported to our modern era and learn that there are proposals that all citizen-units are to be required to deliver the keys (and hence the contents) for their most private communications to the King? Er, I mean, "the Government."
Since they are just proposals, perhaps their reaction would be words like "I don't agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death to protect your right to say it." Or they might say something like "the antidote to bad speech is good speech". I don't think they would make a general call to anihilate all opponents of their point of view. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson Often those who speak of patriotism wield the term as a thunderbolt to head off criticism of their plans. "It is unpatriotic to oppose the CDA, mandatory key escrow." It is indeed the last refuge of a scoundrel when used as an excuse to violate civil liberties. I suspect that's not what Tim was doing below. -Declan On Sat, 19 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote: [usual rant deleted]
Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
Amazing. Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this nuance.
-- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
On Sun, 20 Jul 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson
Patriotism is the *FIRST* refuge of a scoundrel. (The second is prayer.) alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.
On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:48:20PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." --Samuel Johnson
Often those who speak of patriotism wield the term as a thunderbolt to head off criticism of their plans. "It is unpatriotic to oppose the CDA, mandatory key escrow." It is indeed the last refuge of a scoundrel when used as an excuse to violate civil liberties.
I suspect that's not what Tim was doing below.
That is *exactly* what Tim is doing. He is wrapping himself in the flag and shouting about how he has the one true vision of what the hallowed founding fathers thought:
Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
Pardon my patriotic tears... Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match it. Of course, the true believers chorus "Yea, verily", and are impressed by the fire and brimstone; and the anon crowd always chimes in after a respectful delay... -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
That is *exactly* what Tim is doing. He is wrapping himself in the flag and shouting about how he has the one true vision of what the hallowed founding fathers thought:
Foo. Tim has never claimed to have a true vision, as in all things it is highly individual and subjective, nor does he claim that even if his vision of their intentions were correct it would be the only correct interpretation. An argument based on discrediting the other persons perspective rather than trying to make an objective accessment is unlikely to ever be productive, clearly you must have no opinion whatsoever on this or any other subject or you would be claiming to have the one true vision of the reality of the situation, wouldn`t you???.
Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
Pardon my patriotic tears...
Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match it. Of course, the true believers chorus "Yea, verily", and are impressed by the fire and brimstone; and the anon crowd always chimes in after a respectful delay...
Yea, verily. Surely Kent you are not claiming that the founding fathers would have considered it right to stand by passively and allow the government to pass laws allowing them to intrude on citizens private communications and stored data? And your implied contention that the congress proponents of GAK are entitled to freely propose such legislation is flawed in two ways: 1. Elected poloticians do not have totally unrestricted free speech, this is because they are employees of the state and are bound by contract. You would not expect a senator to last long if he stood on the steps of congress and loudly proclaimed "kill all the niggers". This very same contract also involved their swearing an oath to uphold the constitution, hence proposing or voting for unconstitutional laws is a breach of this contract. 2. Further, the speech of elected officials can directly infringe the rights of citizens within their jurisdiction, a congress-critter proposing a GAK system or speaking in favour of a compulsory GAK bill is shouting fire in a crowded theatre, it is not pure speech. Datacomms Technologies data security Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"
On Mon, Jul 21, 1997 at 10:29:37AM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
[...]
Re: Tim May's quote. May is pointing out the truism that the world is full of weak-minded fools.
Almost everybody believes they are above average, believe it or not.
This is the essential problem of the illusory democracy that we live in today. Since in our illusory democracy, the people falsely believe they've excercised their will via "the vote".
?
The reality is that the sheeple, lulled into veritable unconsciouness with an unending stream of monday-night sports, the Home Shopping Channel (TM) and Beavis and Butthead couldn't care a less as long as they feed on the media/social security/propaganda tit. Their personal opinions, thorougly pre-chewed and digested are spoon-fed to them through a port in the side of their head labeled "fear".
Right. So those people simply don't count, and might as well be eliminated.
May is just one of the people who has awoken from the anesthesia (self-induced or not).
No, Tim obviously lives in a world rich in fantasy. But he is a very clever fellow, and can be quite impressive. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
Right. So those people simply don't count, and might as well be eliminated.
Butthead: Whoa! That was cool! Bevis: I like stuff that's like, um, you know, cool, huh huh, huh huh. Butthead: Me too, but I hate stuff that sucks Bevis: Yeah, yeah, huh huh, huh huh. Butthead: huh huh, huh huh. Bevis: Hey Butthead, let's eliminate something... Butthead: Yeah, let's go take a dump on Kent's head.. Huh huh. Bevis: huh huh, huh huh...
No, Tim obviously lives in a world rich in fantasy. But he is a very clever fellow, and can be quite impressive.
Bevis: He said fellow, huh huh, huh huh, huh huh. Butthead: Yeah, yeah, and then he said impressive. Bevis: We're there dude! Butthead: Yeah, Kent is a wuss, he like works for the NSA or something Bevis: Yeah, he works for your butt, fartknocker. Butthead: Huh huh, huh huh, shuddup before I smack you Bevis. Kent: I am Spookholio, come out with your passphrases down (whoa, that was cool, yeah um, huh huh, huh huh.) Kent: I need access to your bunghole. Grease up now citizen unit. Bevis: Whoa, that was cool or something Butthead: This sucks, change the channel. Kent: Are you threatening me? Government Access to Keys Now! Bevis: Kent is getting lame. Yeah, I'd rather go back to school than watch him. Butthead: Yeah, what a wuss, even we wouldn't give him our passwords. Bevis: Yeah, let him spank his own monkey. Butthead: Huh huh, yeah, huh huh. Kent: I am the great Spookholio, boioioioing! I need access to your butt. Butthead: Shut up Kent before I smack you. Kent: Bend over now! And pay for the vaseline(tm) All will bend over to the creat Spookholio! I need GAK for my bunghole. Bevis: yeah, yeah, shutup asswipe. Butthead: You fart knocker. Bevis: Hey, Butthead, let's leave or something... this sucks... Butthead, Uh, huh huh, yeah Kent, go take a dump or something Bevis: He's like, pretending to be Cornholio or something... Kent: Are you threatening me? Butthead: yeah, what a lame poser, dude... Bevis: this sucks Kent: You buttmunch. I'll get Louie Freeh after you.. Butthead: Kent you schill, you suck choads. Bevis: yeah, yeah... Butthead: Is that government shit coming out of his mouth? Bevis: yeah, he's got, like diarhea of the mouth or something... B&B: Diareah, cha cha cha B&B: Diareah, cha cha cha B&B: Diareah, cha cha cha B&B: Huh huh, huh huh, huh huh, that was cool! ... Now back to more regularly scheduled MTV videos .... =====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos============== .+.^.+.| Ray Arachelian | "If you wanna touch the sky, you must |./|\. ..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com| be prepared to die. And I hate cough |/\|/\ <--*-->| ------------------ | syrup, don't you?" |\/|\/ ../|\..| "A toast to Odin, | For with those which eternal lie, with |.\|/. .+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"| strange aeons, even death may die. |..... ======================== http://www.sundernet.com =========================
(this is a mail messages that got stuck in the queue a long time ago and just came out) On Mon, 21 Jul 1997, Kent Crispin wrote:
On Mon, Jul 21, 1997 at 10:29:37AM -0600, Jim Burnes wrote:
[...]
Re: Tim May's quote. May is pointing out the truism that the world is full of weak-minded fools.
Almost everybody believes they are above average, believe it or not.
I don't care. IQ scores cluster about a bell curve. Someone has to fill out the left side. Most of the left side don't understand bell curves and that worries me.
This is the essential problem of the illusory democracy that we live in today. Since in our illusory democracy, the people falsely believe they've excercised their will via "the vote".
?
The people believe they are free because the powers-that-be allow them to excercise a relatively feeble "right" to vote. Somehow, even though we've had this right since the beginning, things have gone from bad to worse without stop.
The reality is that the sheeple, lulled into veritable unconsciouness with an unending stream of monday-night sports, the Home Shopping Channel (TM) and Beavis and Butthead couldn't care a less as long as they feed on the media/social security/propaganda tit. Their personal opinions, thorougly pre-chewed and digested are spoon-fed to them through a port in the side of their head labeled "fear".
Right. So those people simply don't count, and might as well be eliminated.
I never said that. They count and I might say that giving them the right to vote soothes their nerves because it gives them the illusion of excercising (rather innefectual) self-determination. Truth be told, the kinds of issues solved by the "vote" are minor ones. Somewhere (circa 1938) the constitutional republic was de-activated and replaced by something horrible and malevolent. Meanwhile all the real power is wielded by a fascist melding of powerful corporations, politicians and the military/police state. I think it quite likely that people are born into this world with some combination of agression, intelligence and empathy. The eight combinations of these three variables determine the natural castes in life. Watch out for the one with high agression, high intelligence and relatively little empathy. I do internet security consulting for a living and get a chance to interview everyone from the lowest engineers up to CEO's. Its very interesting to see what happens when we turn in our security vulnerability reports and see how the people react at the top. Its a great reflection of character. Many VPs run scurrying trying to cover their asses and cover up the facts. They will destroy their underlings and force blame on them even when its clear that their management decisions brought about the current situation. Often their talent for deceit undermines the very security we set out to establish putting at risk billions of dollars of other peoples money. Relatively little changes from the playground. The worst are the ones that beligerantly assert that there is no security problem and how dare we suggest that there is. These types are very dangerous because they are not just reactive, they are pro-active and will destroy the messengers to cover up their insecurity. Their tactics are very clever, quick and decisive. For whatever its worth.... Actually I'm tired of stating the obvious. What are the current outstanding cypher projects? I'd rather be writing code. What I need is one more project on the burner. Jim Burnes "How do you explain school to higher intelligence?" Elliot to his brother in ET
The people believe they are free because the powers-that-be allow them to excercise a relatively feeble "right" to vote. Somehow, even though we've had this right since the beginning, things have gone from bad to worse without stop.
"even though", or "because"?
At 5:05 PM -0700 7/20/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:48:20PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match it.
Speaking of Clinton, "If Clinton blows anymore smoke up my ass, my sphincter is going to sue Philip-Morris." --Dennis Miller
On Tue, Jul 22, 1997 at 09:05:23AM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
At 5:05 PM -0700 7/20/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
On Sun, Jul 20, 1997 at 02:48:20PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote: Can there be any doubt at all? It's obviously old cheap rhetoric through and through, not even Bill Clinton at his worst could match it.
Speaking of Clinton,
"If Clinton blows anymore smoke up my ass, my sphincter is going to sue Philip-Morris." --Dennis Miller
:-) I should have used Freeh for an example. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44 61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55 http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html
At 7:43 AM -0700 7/19/97, Kent Crispin wrote:
On Fri, Jul 18, 1997 at 10:10:37PM -0700, Tim May wrote: [usual rant deleted]
Kill the key grabbers and all those who support them. Isn't it exactly what Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, and the others would have argued?
Amazing. Patriotism -- the last refuge of the scoundrel.
However, Patric Henry said something like "Give me liberty or give me death." That is really very different from "Kill everyone who opposes me and all their supporters." Tim doesn't seem to understand this nuance.
I think Tim is thinking of: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants." which, of course, was written by Jefferson. -- Marshall Marshall Clow Aladdin Systems <mailto:mclow@mailhost2.csusm.edu> "In Washington DC, officials from the White House, federal agencies and Congress say regulations may be necessary to promote a free-market system." -- CommunicationsWeek International April 21, 1997
Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the US Courts? That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible privacy concerns. One has the sense that once they get into the hands of the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles? How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts? We should also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too. -- #!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj $/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1 lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I'm really surprised to see this entire discussion resurface, especially without any apparent memory of the past 5 years that have hashed this topic over. The real issue, IMHO, is given in my http://www.clark.net/pub/cme/html/avss.html Hitting closer to home for those of us who design crypto: Our job is to permit Alice to communicate to Bob (or Alice at a later time) without Eve getting anything from that communication. +---+ | E | +---+ ^ +---+ | +---+ | A |-------------+---------->| B | +---+ +---+ The gov't wants us to achieve that goal but permit Dorothy the detective, D, to have access: +---+ | D | +---+ ^ +---+ | +---+ | A |-------------+---------->| B | +---+ +---+ Those two diagrams are identical except for labeling. How can we tell E from D, as crypto designers? Was J. Edgar Hoover an E or a D? Nixon? The LA Intelligence unit? ....? Meanwhile, the system to allow D but not E is hugely more complex than the system which prohibits both D and E. And, as I argue elsewhere, <http://www.clark.net/pub/cme/html/ukgak/>, good strong non-GAK crypto in the hands of criminals should help law enforcement in their surveillance effort -- because: 1) it encourages criminals to talk about their crimes with other criminals 2) some percentage of those "other criminals" will be plants, informers or turned, thus giving law enforcement an intelligence boon 3) traffic analysis of these criminal conversations is not inhibited - Carl At 12:45 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Declan McCullagh wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:04:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Joe Shea <joeshea@netcom.com> To: Declan McCullagh <declan@well.com> Cc: fight-censorship-announce@vorlon.mit.edu Subject: Re: FC: Brookings Inst. on crypto: "There are reasonable compromises"
Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the US Courts? That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible privacy concerns. One has the sense that once they get into the hands of the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
Best,
Joe Shea Editor-in-Chief The American Reporter joeshea@netcom.com http://www.newshare.com:9999
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM8/fpFQXJENzYr45AQGVFgP+NwnbWTzPmy97dNMiH01T7cwUT63ofpud B0LJmstXN7ayxJ288eDYqOd0KZLi83lUKqfmoeW6WhLH2ySC3+E72FQi/jfmK8eG k/JgH3cAukWGgDoZ1JpHnCW+9HfWIgkNHTLVEjNNMI8Vk2g5qRZc2onrbJd3Y38P okAx1LgrGDk= =fQdx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Carl M. Ellison cme@cybercash.com http://www.clark.net/pub/cme | |CyberCash, Inc. http://www.cybercash.com/ | |207 Grindall Street PGP 2.6.2: 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 | |Baltimore MD 21230-4103 T:(410) 727-4288 F:(410)727-4293 | +------------------------------------------------------------------+
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <3.0.3.32.19970718172701.00969de0@cybercash.com>, on 07/18/97 at 05:27 PM, Carl Ellison <cme@cybercash.com> said:
Those two diagrams are identical except for labeling. How can we tell E from D, as crypto designers? Was J. Edgar Hoover an E or a D? Nixon? The LA Intelligence unit? ....?
They are all "E" the only difference is that the "D's" stole our money to finance their operations against us. - -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html - --------------------------------------------------------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3a Charset: cp850 Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000 iQCVAwUBM9ADR49Co1n+aLhhAQGY2gQAvOsfcBz9kmTaxdMapp5sJrNuINlfnMw9 kH7WxS9shHmNJP37cmO2ZhtO2DXihInQ83UDVX6WP75WE5QaC0Onip5F197MtSmG ugp9lLANBQknn8VRuj4V2u1qSh+hcwfs8pBCEbtY+j+c77F23CxR3oEJvVMS76/6 JKasyqR4okc= =5aor -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
At 1:36 PM -0700 7/18/97, Lizard wrote:>Frankly, I find it mildly
amusing no one has asked the Congressional defenders of key escrow, point blank, "What safeguards do you have against keys falling into the hands of the next Ames?" Who watches the watchmen?
Why not go one step further and get the strong crypto supporters in the Senate to tack on an ammendment to the McCain-Kerrey-bill forcing the FBI and our most secret security agencies to use the very same government/industry escrow entitites (but not any of the intelligence organizations themselves) for all their encrypted data storage and communications traffic and requiring regular GOA compliance reviews. --Steve
Colin Rafferty wrote:
Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the US Courts? That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible privacy concerns. One has the sense that once they get into the hands of the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?
How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts? We should also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.
It doesn't matter who holds the keys, the problems involved are essentially the same. Such powers are always abused. Getting back to the courts, don't tell me you (joe) are intending to give our keys to the same courts who sign wiretap orders on a whim are you? The courts haven't proven themselves any more trust worthy than other branches of government. Furthermore, it is very difficult to take such powers out of the hands of the courts. How will you fight something like this, take it to court?
-- #!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]dsj $/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1 lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..)*)$/)
Hey! it's the RSA export-A-sig. I can recognize it anywhere... -- KORO "In view of the present world situation," said the parlor philosopher, "the best thing that can happen to a man is not to be born at all in the first place. But I doubt that even one man in a hundred thousand is that lucky."
[fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu removed, as we are getting incredible amounts of cross-pollution from lame posters who don't understand even the basics of liberty. Disgusting.] At 1:52 PM -0700 7/18/97, Colin Rafferty wrote:
Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the US Courts? That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible privacy concerns. One has the sense that once they get into the hands of the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?
How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts? We should also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.
I obviously agree with Colin on this. My communications, writings, and diaries are *mine*. I have no idea who this "Joe Shea" is, but he seems ignorant of basic concepts of life in a free society. Suggesting "better" holders of keys is beside the point. Anyone who tries to grab my keys should be killed. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
FYI, Joe Shea filed one of the lawsuits against the CDA, Shea v. Reno, on his own. He refused the join the ACLU's lawsuit against the act, calling them pro-porn or somesuch. He's calmed down a bit since then,I think. His lawsuit was put on hold by the SupCt while Reno v. ACLU was decided,then the lower court's decision was summarily affirmed. Ironically, Shea was represented by the same law firm that lost the Pacifica case. I have a PCWorld article I wrote about Shea's suit a year+ ago at: http://www.eff.org/pub/Publications/Declan_McCullagh/ -Declan On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
[fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu removed, as we are getting incredible amounts of cross-pollution from lame posters who don't understand even the basics of liberty. Disgusting.]
At 1:52 PM -0700 7/18/97, Colin Rafferty wrote:
Joe Shea (via Declan McCullagh) writes:
Declan, what would you think if the actual keepers of the keys, so to speak, were the courts, such as the Administratoive Office of the US Courts? That would at least seem to reduce a lot of the possible privacy concerns. One has the sense that once they get into the hands of the varius agencies, they'll get back out.
Why do I feel like we are going around and around in circles?
How about we give copies of our house-keys to the courts? We should also send them our old backup tapes, just in case they need them, too.
I obviously agree with Colin on this. My communications, writings, and diaries are *mine*.
I have no idea who this "Joe Shea" is, but he seems ignorant of basic concepts of life in a free society. Suggesting "better" holders of keys is beside the point.
Anyone who tries to grab my keys should be killed.
--Tim May
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
[I am leaving the distribution list alone, as I have no idea where the locus of this discussion is. We are seeing serious cross-pollution of the Cypherpunks list by crap from others lists.] At 2:27 PM -0700 7/18/97, Carl Ellison wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
I'm really surprised to see this entire discussion resurface, especially without any apparent memory of the past 5 years that have hashed this topic over.
It hasn't resurfaced from anyone clued in to the real issues. Just some reporters seeking "compromise." Fuck them. Anyone who tries to grab my keys needs killing. I have no more patience for "well-meaning" fools. We need anonymous contract murders to get rid of this kind of scum, as force is the only language they seem to understand. --Tim May There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
And if Tim May does kill me, I hope someone has his key, or better yet, can go make a showing to a judge and get it from him. Then he won't kill again. I think this is the whole point of key escrow -- to make sure people like the one Tim represents himself to be are people you can find in the maze of the Internet. Unfortunately -- well, not really -- I don't think Tim is a trained killer who's going to search me out. There are plenty of them, though, and they are moving vast sums of stolen money and nuclear weapon parts and stolen information all over the globe. I see no reason why we should be defenseless against them. At the same time, I don't think the keys should be in the hands of federal law enforcement agencies who have demonstrably screwed up big-time on an anwful lot of occasions. Judges -- people like the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals -- would look rather askance at requests for someone's key when it was no more aggravating an issue than a piece of flame mail. On the other hand, if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating. Of course, a lot of people would like to see it blow up, and maybe Tim is one of those, too. Best, Joe Shea Editor-in-Chief The American Reporter joeshea@netcom.com http://www.newshare.com:9999 On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Tim May wrote:
[I am leaving the distribution list alone, as I have no idea where the locus of this discussion is. We are seeing serious cross-pollution of the Cypherpunks list by crap from others lists.]
At 2:27 PM -0700 7/18/97, Carl Ellison wrote:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
I'm really surprised to see this entire discussion resurface, especially without any apparent memory of the past 5 years that have hashed this topic over.
It hasn't resurfaced from anyone clued in to the real issues. Just some reporters seeking "compromise." Fuck them.
Anyone who tries to grab my keys needs killing.
I have no more patience for "well-meaning" fools. We need anonymous contract murders to get rid of this kind of scum, as force is the only language they seem to understand.
--Tim May
There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
At 9:15 PM -0700 7/18/97, Joe Shea wrote:
And if Tim May does kill me, I hope someone has his key, or better yet, can go make a showing to a judge and get it from him. Then he won't kill again. I think this is the whole point of key escrow -- to make sure people like the one Tim represents himself to be are people you can find in the maze of the Internet. Unfortunately -- well, not really -- I don't think Tim is a trained killer who's going to search me out. There are plenty of them, though, and they are moving vast sums of stolen money and nuclear weapon parts and stolen information all over the globe. I see no reason why we should be defenseless against them. At the same time, I
Why should we be "defenseless against them"? Why should we be "defenseless" against those who plot crimes behind locked doors, with curtains drawn? Why not simply enter at will? And why be "defenseless" against those who speak in whispers, or those who speak in languages the State and Defense Departments have no translators for? Imprison the Navajo code talkers for speaking in an unapproved language. And why should the State be defenseless against those like Winston Smith who keep illegal, unescrowed diaries? They might be plotting to move nuclear weapons.
don't think the keys should be in the hands of federal law enforcement agencies who have demonstrably screwed up big-time on an anwful lot of occasions. Judges -- people like the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals -- would look rather askance at requests for someone's key when it was no more aggravating an issue than a piece of flame mail. On the other hand, if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating. Of course, a lot of people would like to see it blow up, and maybe Tim is one of those, too.
Best,
Fuck you with all your "best" bullshit. You are the enemy. My keys are my keys, period. If any Ninth Circuit stooge wants them, he'll have to deal with my (illegal by their bullshit laws) AR-15. You, of course, are quite welcome to voluntarily "escrow" your crypto keys, your house keys, your car keys, and the codes to your diary with the local or circuit judge of your choice. Just don't volunteer _my_ keys. Got it? Vermin like you are what is wrong with this country, and the reasons the militias are gaining strength every day. A fucking house-cleaning is in order. --TCM There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws. Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!" ---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@got.net 408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Higher Power: 2^1398269 | black markets, collapse of governments. "National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 09:15 PM 7/18/97 -0700, Joe Shea wrote:
Judges -- people like the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals -- would look rather askance at requests for someone's key when it was no more aggravating an issue than a piece of flame mail. On the other hand, if someone's going to blow up San Francisco this week, it sure would help to have a key to any encrypted communications he was generating.
The gov't doesn't give any KE agent, judge or otherwise, permission to see the actual decrypted traffic to make sure it matches the excuse given on the request for access. The gov't can always come back and say, "Well, he didn't say anything useful so we didn't record anything -- thanks for the key anyway." If the gov't had to get content itself from a judge -- or, better, from the NYTimes, Wash Post, ACLU, etc. -- then maybe we'd be closer to a politically workable answer. That is, it would be valueless as a covert intelligence tool. - Carl -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM9EVYFQXJENzYr45AQFPrwQAlss0rHedSDH243QOsZdt0vNMAdVuD52b aYZTXlBM9or33z9Ri35wSBAy8iGdVnX6lgloUUMzO7EsHrw5ytMFyNM/Lj1mnLkp GYBBmdZYcgO1uJMOdk2GlqJ7FNVPEgPFdlxiphMFBlDYjdH1MVoTCg2s1FwhIJbs LRBSZaRODxM= =i9dR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Carl M. Ellison cme@acm.org http://www.clark.net/pub/cme | | PGP: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84 E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2 | +-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+
participants (17)
-
Alan -
Carl Ellison -
Colin Rafferty -
Declan McCullagh -
Declan McCullagh -
Jim Burnes -
Joe Shea -
Kent Crispin -
Koro -
Lizard -
Marshall Clow -
Paul Bradley -
Ray Arachelian -
snow -
Steve Schear -
Tim May -
William H. Geiger III