Bantering with punk-stasi-victim was Re: Slavery was Formally Abolished Today, Happy Freedom Day
gmkarl at gmail.com
Tue Feb 9 10:46:54 PST 2021
I just finished a session of videotherapy. I haven't read Punk's emails yet.
I suspect I reply to Punk more because the things he says are more
similar to things I'm used to being said around me.
During my therapy my therapist said something like "things you've been
through, like human trafficking," and immediately got irritated,
because I had been brainwashed to know I had not been through human
trafficking. It's pretty obvious I was briefly, which is pretty
I'm imagining people who have been forced to spread and believe
propaganda against human trafficking, being unable to state that they
have experienced it. A situation worse than mine.
On 2/8/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks at tfwno.gf> wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 18:46:14 -0500
> Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Here we go again with totally different answers!
>> On 2/6/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks at tfwno.gf> wrote:
>> > On Sat, 6 Feb 2021 14:34:57 -0500
>> > Karl <gmkarl at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> On 2/6/21, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks at tfwno.gf> wrote:
>> >> Punk, I bumped into a weirdo. He said I had to draw a square on the
>> >> wall, and if I ever told anybody about him, the instructions, or the
>> >> square, he would kill me!
>> > Do you like to speak in riddles? Or do you do it because you think it
>> > serves some purpose? Problem is, I don't understand your riddles. I can
>> > try
>> > half guessing, but it takes effort and makes the discussion even harder
>> > to
>> > follow.
>> It's not a riddle. It's a summarisation of things that have happened
>> to me. The parts were changed to ones I made up. It's meant
>> straight, plus obvious similarity.
> Well, you're talking about it. Now you're going to be killed?
Dunno! Today, my heart is still beating. And this isn't really
talking, more like beating around a lot of bushes (which means
intensely avoiding something). Do you think it's the right choice?
>>> As far as I can
>>> tell you're saying that abolition of government is a more violent form
>>> government. Which is absurd.
>> Personal slavery. Where the government is not a large organised body
>> but rather a smaller representative of pain.
> are you saying that abolition of government leads to personal slavery?
No. Here, let me quote something you said:
> "I'm down for an abolition-of-government solution to human trafficking"
> Ok, that statement is clear and non-ambiguous. But then you add
> "which is obviously just a much more personal and violent form of 'governance'"
> What is the word "which" pointing at?
The word "which" was pointing at the two words immediately preceding
it: "hy0Omun tRaphikking". What word do you see, prior to "which"?
>> > No. When you abolish government, all the problems that governmetn
>> > causes
>> > dissapear. That's the whole point of abolishing government.
>> Sorry, thought you were blaming all problems on government.
> Yes. Or to be more accurate, the vast amajority of problems are caused and
> amplified by government.
Sounds like this whether or not abolishing government would resolve
the subject of this thread is a confusing topic for you?
>> So you do you propose abolishing "government" and not abolishing
> ...? I never proposed not-abolishing-slavery...
> >> We'd have to make sure to prevent slavery, in the
> >> government-abolition.
And you said:
> > that sounds like typical anti anarchist propaganda.
Not sure what the concern here is. Are we in agreement that slavery
and governance are both reasonable things to reign in? Kind of the
small-form and large-form of controlling other people against their
>> Personally, like, anarchism is cool, but to me govcorp looks pretty
>> blurry. The USA government would basically disappear by actually
>> respecting people if the powers pulling their strings were wrangled.
> Govcorp is blurry? Not sure what you mean by that.
I mean it's hard to tell who or where they are, specifically.
>>US government would....disappear....if the powers pulling their strings
>> were wrangled.
> govcorp IS the power pulling the strings.
I'm not sure what that means; I think of 'govcorp' as kind of just
slang for governments and corporations acting synchronously. In the
USA we have a lot of corporate lobbyists and financers influencing
things pretty heavily.
>> >> But often people leave stuff out when planning.
>> > social planners are interested in planning. Social planners are the
>> > opposite of anarchists.
>> These similarity of "planning" does not mean that planners are
> But it does. Planners have the wrong mindset. They are wannabe tyrants,
> 'planning' what other people should do. Also, look at all the fucking
> technocrats around here...
>> Me, I'd like to live in a community where we do not
>> enslave people, but rather respect everyone in it.
> Fine. That's a principle, not a plan.
You can plan on people sharing their principles in groups. Such
groups may want to plan together.
>> What do you think of the idea of offering a service to governments and
>> anarchists both, where young women can be forced to seduce activists,
>> possibly even marry them, to take them out of their activism?
> Sounds convoluted.
Yeah kind of a specific case of multiple things.
Maybe it would be easier to draw on a normal trafficking service as a
government worker. How 'bout that?
>> "laws". "we love human rights bla bla".
>> Many people believe those laws and follow and live by them. Many of
>> these people are where the government's power comes from, so they
>> actually defend the laws for those people.
? I've lived in upper-income communities and seen the reliable
policing and respect. I've also seen moonshiners have their camp
leveled by machinery just because somebody called the police about
their clothes looking raggy.
Laws are functional tools for the people who pay the most of the
taxes. These people can be reached and worked with.
>> > Those 'human rights' 'laws' are of course more propaganda. In practice
>> > the
>> > US has the highest incarceration rate on the planet, it's the most
>> > dangerous
>> > rogue state on the planet, has military bases all over the planet, etc,
>> > etc,
>> > and does all that according to their 'laws'.
>> Most of that stuff is picked by humans, kind of outside the laws.
> bullshit. All those crimes are commited 'by law' and 'inside' the 'laws'.
>> Like, the law might say some human can pick stuff, and the human picks
>> that bad stuff.
> Govt crimimals write 'laws' which are nothing but a description of their
> crimes, and 'execute' the 'laws', i.e. commit the crimes.
That totally happens, but in the USA we also write our own laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_referendum . Representation
occasionally works too, where laws get written that people want.
What's relevant is that we have antislavery laws, so working with laws
would be a part of a comprehensive effort against slavery.
You could also just rescue and protect people with your physical body,
which sounds pretty awesome too.
>> But, like, yeah, laws are bad. It's really hard to talk like the
>> die-hard antigov you pretend to be after my brainwashing.
>> Is there a
>> word for not actually being a government agent but being about as
>> gross as one? I'm about as gross as a government agent, just in a way
>> that yields great pity, so I think of laws as helpful, now.
> In the past you claimed you were an 'anarcho-primitivist'. It doesn't seem
> that's the case tho.
I'd better be allowed to be an anarcho-primtivist who was forcibly
brainwashed to not behave or talk like one, because I am that.
If you want me to criticise laws for my reasons, they produce and
sustain conflict by depersonalizing the resolution of concerns. You
need to have ways to heal relations with the people who impact you and
are impacted by you, on a personal and emotional level, or things just
worsen and worsen.
>> >> Really, with a good blockchain'd camera and a big and diverse crowd,
>> >> you could win lawsuits altering the harmful behaviors of the US, based
>> >> on antislavery laws.
>> > Haha. Win lawsuits? By definition the govt owns the courts.
>> I've had success in two court battles myself.
> Well yes, you can win a few 'lawsuits' which in practice won't affect the
> operation of government and would give the false idea that government isn't
Lawsuits in the USA maybe have two useful roles: they give you an
opportunity to defend yourself against government excess, and they
provide an avenue for producing defended results. For example, people
have had some success retrieving FOIA documents.
>> >> Happy to run whatever campaign is willing to welcome all supporters,
>> >> and listen to all their ideas. If you're intentionally excluding
>> >> people who want to support you, or their ideas, that's a recipe for
>> >> disaster, leave me out.
>> > Why wouldn't I exclude people who parrot govt propaganda.
>> Obviously because somebody would train everybody to parrot it, so that
>> they got the people instead of you.
> Somehow "people who want to support you" and "people who parrot govt
> propaganda" got mixed up. Anyway, you don't want support from people who
In the scenario I proposed, the second group is a superset of the first.
> parrot what your enemy tells them to parrot. And if they believe govt
Sounds like you can't teach people what is true?
> propaganda they won't support anti government actions so they are not a
> great loss.
In the USA, most people grow up supporting the government, and then at
some point realise it is a big sham and many people then turn against
the government. Nothing is black and white.
>> Say there were a tiny bit of human trafficking. Say I had even
>> experienced it! What would be a respectful way to engage this,
>> without spreading bullshit propaganda?
> I don't know.
Sounds like it's not bullshit propaganda, unless those words mean
>> Anyway, here's how to start a human trafficking ring.
>> Clean out your basement.
> thanks for the instructions
thanks for snipping them.
>> Here's what's actually true, rather than that bullshit:
>> When somebody tries to control your behavior, they vomit on your soul
>> in a way you can never, ever forget. Like they have told you they
>> hate you in a way so real that you become it. Maybe you consciously
>> forget everything that hurt, everything that is bad, maybe you can't
>> bring to mind any memories of this. But it is written on ever fibre
>> of your being, in a way every part of you understands and knows, like
>> nothing else.
>> This is why government cannot last. Not because of some fake world
> Not sure I follow. By "government cannot last" you mean it's going to
> somehow self-destruct?
It's like the blowback I mentioned earlier. The more you do nasty
stuff the more people eventually make sure it can never happen again.
We'd like to skip all the death and just be nice to each other,
>> >> > Nobody told me what to do here. And when I'm told what to do I
>> >> > usually
>> >> > do
>> >> > the opposite.
>> >> Yeah? Who would you love to disobey the most? \0xDynamite told me
>> >> they were in charge, I think.
>> > Oh yes, he's literally a jew theocrat. You can imagine how much I
>> > would
>> > obey him.
>> So you're speaking backwards-language? You were told what to do, and
>> you are following orders?
> I wasn't told what to do. And I added that in the hypothetical case that I
> were given orders, I'm pretty unlikely to follow them.
So you're saying the answer to two questions is no, and no?
>> >> >> You also quoted that slavery is only legal in the united states as
>> >> >> punishment for a crime the victim has been duly convicted of.
>> >> >
>> >> > so slavery IS STILL LEGAL. What part you don't get?
>> >> It sounds like you are really interested in helping close the last
>> >> loopholes?
>> > last loopholes? The 'loophole' is the existence of government itself.
>> > And no I'm not particulary interested in making govt laws look
>> > prettier.
>> > The fact that the US govt makes slavery explicitly 'legal' is a good
>> > reminder of what governments actually are.
>> Totally. Justice is run by human beings, not laws.
> The 'legal' system is run by pseudo-human trash who write 'laws' and
> execute them. That's obviously not 'justice, and yes it is run by 'laws' and
> the assholes who write them.
Government is bad, slavery is bad, sounds like we agree that people
>> That justice can
>> be a mob of people, a court of law, a mediation, it can be anything.
>> But we need to take action and talk with people, to make it happen.
>> Anyway, sorry you were enslaved to downplay my sharing of rescue
> Funny you keep saying that. Do you mean you are enslaved to post govt
> propaganda here? Because that's what you keep doing.
I already said that what you propose is true. I'll consider believing
it's not true for you when you can acknowledge that human trafficking
>> > Government can put anybody they want in jail for any reason (that is,
>> > for
>> > no reason at all). That's what government is all about.
>> You mean organised crime! It's organised crime that does that.
> Yes government is organised crime. That's pretty much a self-evident fact.
Crime is specifically opposed to government, in the definition.
Anyway, it sounds like oppose human trafficking, i.e. where masses of
people are forced to do things against their will for the benefit of
others, but call it government? It is notable that governments also
do this, but they don't offer the behaviors of their people as a
service to the wealthy or anything that I am aware of.
>> In the USA laws get in the way of government immediately imprisoning
> meh, now you are just trolling.
You can look in BlueLeaks and see the presentation of groups who are
not about terrorism, described as terrorists in law enforcement
trainings (although it's hard to find). If government was just a way
to control people directly, there would be no need to deceive the
police to get them to attack certain groups of people.
>> > You think you're teaching me something with your false analogy?
>> > Churches
>> > are a fucking criminal cancer.
>> So is carbon monoxide and ozone! It's obviously because they have
>> oxygen in them!
> Churches are a cancer and your retorts are not relevant. If you care about
> human freedom you should be against jew-kristianity.
I mean, I really don't like indoctrination, but I have eaten at
numerous soup kitchens run by churches. They do do moral things.
Why do you care so much about being for and against stuff? It's,
like, the only thing I am against (being against stuff in general),
and this is true of so many people. You cast yourself as the eternal
>> [insert lost story around coordinating with an organiser of a quaker
> fuck the quakers. Puritan english theocrats.
I like how they sit in a circle of silence, listening, and accept all
beliefs. They still talk like god is the biggest one which is weird.
>> > You can start with this : christianity is a form of totalitarianism
>> > derived
>> > from jew savagery and totalitarianism.
>> Although many people make that logical sloppiness, nobody really does
>> it in this context.
> What logical sloppiness. Organized religion is criminal fraud. European
> jew-kkkristianty is a derivative of jew anti-culture. Basic moral and
> historical facts.
I received two spaces and no words between "is" and "criminal". I
suppose you edited it.
What does this matter? This "information" is possibly helpful for
judging how much to trust something, but not everything is about how
much to trust somebody's religion. In fact, very little is.
>> My names is FakeAnarchistGimmeMoreBeerAndWeed
>> Anyway, if you want to fucking die in the street while fucking cops
>> rip your fucking tent to shreds and fucking brutalise your fucking
>> body, be my guest,
> There's no need to get into a fight with cops, unless there's enough people
> to beat the cops to death slowly, like they deserve.
Anarchists tend to lose their homes and live on the streets. On the
streets you can get hurt by cops.
>> but shit do fucking smart people fucking sign up
>> for fucking government aid and talk to a fucking therapist
> smart people don't sign up for govt 'aid' either. You presented a false
What does "false choice" mean?
Dude, tell them your name is "doe john" and use the free money to
stimulate their fucking economy and get medical treatment for your
>> who doesn't
>> fucking slur through a pile of fucking forties to say everything.
>> I dunno, man. Maybe you don't know how nice it is to be able to
>> contact a freedom resource when what you've been through is beyond
>> what anybody you talk to seems able to comprehend. I asked my
>> therapist if he could find somebody who had experience working with
>> torture victims. He said he'd try a little bit.
>> I can't fend for myself anymore. I've always given to others. When
>> I'm on the streets, people can tell that I had a middle-class
>> experience. But now I need to take to myself to survive. I'm a
>> software developer. It's like all I know how to do well. It would be
>> really powerful if I could do anything useful with it, but I'm
>> brainwashed not to. Hmm.
> How are you brainwashed exactly? And what can a single software developer
> do anyway. I mean, there's already software out there and the problem is
> that people mostly don't use it. Just look at monero for instance. Very
Eh I was harmed in a way that used timing and intensity to build like
alternate personalities in me that believe weird shit and influence me
A single free software developer can write a blockchain or machine
learning application that changes the entire world. See: bitcoin.
It's not that people use it: it's that people mine it.
But what's more relevant is that most people don't understand
software, so you can really help some arbitrary group out by managing
their software issues and writing software that does things they do.
Software isn't used cause devs aren't free, over here. Why do you
believe monero isn't used?
>> I'm so confused.
>> Are you asking me to join street communities instead of calling the
>> human trafficking hotline? Why are you speaking in riddles when you
>> do this?
> If anything I'm asking you to not spread govt propaganda. If you want to
> call teh 'govt hotline', go ahead. But why post about it here.
It was freedom day. Slaves don't always talk, so it's worth the
gamble to share it. Somebody may have never heard of it before.
I'm always spamming the list and it's one of my gimmicks ;p
It's not meant to be government propaganda. It's not even
government-run. NGOs get government financing in the USA. Obviously
it _is_ government propaganda a little, but I thought I addressed that
in the post.
>> I like doing that. I love being outdoors.
> joining a street community sounds goood
>> Okay here's why I'm weird: I want to talk to someone who understands,
>> and the streets are full of people who understand. I don't have to
>> hop through 200 therapists to find this.
> That sounds sensible.
interesting messaging you carry here, punk-stasi.
the world is pretty confusing. i didn't know using computers would
turn into my life.
>> > If you call the governmetn's 'human trafficking' 'hotline' you'll
>> > increase
>> > modern day slavery by playing into the governmetn's hands.
>> Well, due to phone surveillance and culture organisation, yes,
> that's one of the various ways yes.
what are other ways? i just keep hearing that the government gives
htem money, the government is bad, the government is bad, laws are
bad, governments are bad ...
>> you'll also expend their resources monitoring you and influencing the
>> people working there,
> the more you spend 'their' resources, the more they will grow. It's a
> demand/supply thing. You don't sabotage the government by playing their
>> and you they'll have to listen to some of the story and could turn into
> Maybe that could happen to a few 'therapists' but the chances are pretty
You're here, talking to me.
>> Anyway, so, you work for a government?
>> Since you're clearly doing a job here and keep blaming the government for
> How does that follow, exactly? I'm presenting the anti government case, and
> your conclusion is that I work for some government?
You do it totally irrationally as if it is a sham. If you wanted to
convince people of something you would make points around what they
are likely to hear.
Maybe I imagine that people often, when lying and taxed, pick the
exact opposite of what is true. Takes more energy to creatively make
up something new, maybe.
>> > The details are everywhere. Did you hear about the fake 'covid'
>> > 'pandemic'
>> > and the fact that that half the world has been/is under house arrest?
>> > What's
>> > your take on all that?
>> Hey this long answer was where my email closed!
>> So, as far as I know, it's the response that's fake. Covid is real,
>> the response is fake. So that's just 1 layer of unclear communication
>> with you there. Usually many more it seems.
> 'covid' is just the ordinary flu. That's the only sense in which it's real.
>> It seems to be a way to gain better control of the world as technology
>> and communicatoin resulting from grassroots activism develop, dunno.
> yes, the only purpose of the flu farce is to expand the power of govcorp.
> Point being, while we're talking about the virtues of the govt 'hotline'
> and how 'helpful' govt 'laws' are, the govt criminals keep radically
> expanding their power.
That's obvious. Really, I felt the freedom hotline share helped with
>> Kinda looks like it also helps people stimulating disruption, what
>> with the public masks hiding faces and all.
>> Oh, it reduces the need for surveillance infrastructure, since
>> everybody is indoors and online.
> The surveillance infrastructure is being expanded. See bell's posts calling
> for/ praising 'thermal cameras' and more retardphone surveillance.
Maybe it helps authorities have a norm of full surveillance before it
is actually deployed.
>> This probably helps defuse the
>> ongoing cold war. The nice thing about that is that people with
>> urgent importance can of course leave their home to do things, but
>> most people won't which probably satisfies a lot of powerful people.
>> Oh, and it supports internet businesses, showing development between
>> big social / big tech / whatnot and international crime.
> yes, it shows that the US govt and amazon-joogle-microshit-etc are one and
> the same.
What I've been exposed to is the corps sending people to different
parts of governments and influencing them in targeting manners or
getting their own people elected. People successfully fight this,
they just get really hurt doing so.
>> Maybe it's a mediation point between many possibly-secret
>> international power groups who may be quite happy to take down
>> government if protected in doing so. What was left out for your
> The 'international' power group is the US govt. The US govt is not going to
> take down the US govt.
You didn't like Trump's attack on the USA government?
>> My request for a show was serious. Most shows I find are kinda
>> stupid, assuming there is no corruption or that it isn't deeply
>> intertwined with everything.
> Pretty much.
The concept of mine you snipped and said was similar to shows seemed
indicative of some intertwined corruption.
>> >> >> Regarding anarchism, this is faulty logic. You have more power if
>> >> >> you
>> >> >> steal money from your government.
>> >> >
>> >> > 1) the govt doesn't 'own' any money. All they have, they stole it.
>> >> > When
>> >> > you take govt money you just become an accomplice of government
>> >> > theft.
>> >> > The
>> >> > exact opposite of what any actual anarchist would do.
>> >> The government makes the money. But yeah it's all stolen from their
>> >> people.
>> > right, the govt prints the pseudo money, but the actual resources are
>> > stolen from all the holders of money. In the case of US dollars, the US
>> > govt
>> > is STEALING from people ALL OVER THE WORLD.
>> obviously, why are you saying this
>> i suppose because you don't know what to say, and don't want to talk
>> about slavery.
> lawl - I mentioned that because you could have argued that by spending govt
> money you're getting back what you pay in taxes. HOWEVER, in the case of the
> US, a good deal of the loot doesn't even come from US taxpayers. So when you
> spend 'govt money' you're being subsidized by people all over the world. And
> it seem pretty relevant given all your pro US govt comments.
These are strange things to say. Do you have a source of income? Are
you working on any public software projects?
It sounds like the thing to do with govt money is to send it out of the country?
>> >> > 2) the govt only gives money to their accomplices and other useful
>> >> > idiots
>> >> > who are not a threat, at all, to government.
>> >> Whistleblowers.
>> > whistleblowers are not paid for what they do. They are persecuted by
>> > the
>> > govt.
>> they were paid before they blew their whistle.
> right. They were paid when they were criminal accomplices of the govt, and
> are persecuterd when they stop being accomplices of the govt.
yup yup. such people will probably need some freedom services.
>> >> Social aid.
>> > propaganda, vote buying, crums to keep the masses from revolting, etc.
>> > 'social aid' is obviously bad, unless you're a social democrat who is
>> > selling statism.
>> i've got an idea
>> let's find all those homeless bums living off social aid because they
>> were enslaved by a street-representative of their local law
>> enforcement and some pharmaceuticals, steal all their money, and
>> invest it in cryptocurrency right before a bubble, then we can use the
>> money to make a brainwashing camp where we train the homeless to hate
>> the government more. whaddaya think?
> I think government should be abolished.
I think we can work together peacefully to accomplish anything.
>> >> Also, hackers who have been influenced
>> >> to work for them, of which many are likely on this list, honestly
>> >> believing themselves to be anarchists.
>> > if you're talking about 'hackers' working for the govt, those
>> > worthless
>> > scumbags need killing. They belong in the "sellout" category and in the
>> > "enabler-of-child-murder" category.
>> did you get that phrasing from pr? i didn't know we were killing
>> people. is the service available to people looking for suicide after
>> being forced to do something they hate for years?
> who is 'we'? Are you a 'hacker' working for the government?
You and me and anyone else in whatever you're talking about with me.
I wish I were, I'd probably be able to do things I choose or enjoy a
little more, or make money doing them =S Maybe I am in some kinda
>> >> You can get paid a ton as a hacker.
>> > yeah the more corrupt you are, the bigger your govcorp paycheck is.
Deposit your savings on a blockchain with govcorp secrets as attached messages.
>> we were trained since we were kids that money was the only way to
>> survive, i mean give us a little break here. how do you survive
>> without money?
Basically you find some way to learn that, and spend a couple years
practicing, making it fun rather than grueling, and then you don't
need money anymore. Libraries and homeless people have lots of
information on this. Courses can make it formal.
>> > So, hopefully you see that taking money from the govt is bad in many
>> > different ways.
>> none of them seemed convincing to me.
> go figure. You also think US government laws are 'helpful'.
Only the helpful ones! Most of these reduce government's power, like
FOIA or popular referendum or free speech.
>> > we need some critical mass of people who know what they are talking
>> > about.
>> we need some critical mass of people who know what they are talking
>> - how do we know whether they know what they are talking about?
>> - note: people who know about everything and talk about it get
>> seriously harmed. so we would probably have people who know about
>> different things, that they are talking about.
>> any further thoughts?
> not really. You can have the last word if you want ^-^
I am speaking last but my words don't contain information. My last
word is fake.
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