Hi Zig, On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 1:28 PM Zig the N.g <ziggerjoe@yandex.com> wrote:

Soros must be turning in his grave about now, as Whites are going ape over Blacks in America at the moment, as recent poll numbers actually properly show (a rare day indeed), and it's no surprise, what with Black shootings of young White mothers, a vicious and

Sorry, could you maybe remind us of a link of this? Because it looks to me right now that you are accusing people who are commonly victims of murder, as causing it, which would spread more _actual_murder_of_Black_people_ and is likely grounds for criminal charges. No more replies below. relentless campaign of destroying our history and

culture, it's a total surprise to some that we aren't screaming for monthly Hug A Black days, sheesh! :

New Poll Shows More White Americans Now Oppose Black Lives Matter Than Support (Paul Joseph Watson via Summit News,)

https://summit.news/2020/07/21/new-poll-shows-majority-of-americans-now-oppo...

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/new-poll-shows-more-white-americans-now-...

After enjoying a surge in support following the death of George Floyd, a new polls reveals that a majority of white Americans now oppose the Black Lives Matter movement. ...

[Seriously, Paul Joseph Watson is on a freaking roll these days! What a trooper!]

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 09:54:53AM +1000, Zig the N.g wrote:

...

Well well, finally BLM has decided to do Soros a favour and actually improve their public image, shooting a 24 year old mother of one in an ambush under a brigde while she was walking with her friends and fiancée.

... but earlier she did, or at least someone in her group did, respond to a black calling out "black lives matter" with the vile, racist, abhorrent slogan "all lives matter!"

How, just, absolutely!

BLM Supporters Ambush, Murder Young White Mother For Saying 'All Lives Matter'

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/blm-supporters-ambush-murder-young-white...

...

On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 08:46:07AM +1000, Zig the N.g wrote:

...

This might be obvious in hindsight, or I might just be unfortunately

...

...

Presimably feeling the heat, Soros is for some strange reason wanting

his grand hurrah, the White color revolution being dished out on North America for the world to see, to NOT be blamed on Soros!

...

It's hard to get over the level's of chutzpah in this one, and really,

chops to Soros for at least __trying__ to pin the blame on someone as Project Veritas and other leaks ongoingly damn him in the public mind ...

...

... I guess "Putin dunnit" was beginning to wear a little thin.. and

since for 30+ years the oligarchs have been stashing the cash over in their favourite Pooh Bear dictatorship, and now they're struggling to get it out,

slow to grasp things, but to this morning's delight, a "blame Trump" exercise actually surprises me. Go figure. they might as well try to turn up the heat on MAGA Man.

...

...

"All's fair in war and color revolutions."

Quite sophístamicated:

Hedge Fund CIO: Trump Is Now Left With Two Darker Options - A

Domestic Civil Conflict And/Or A Chinese Conflict

...

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/hedge-fund-cio-trump-now-left-two-darker-o...

...

Thanks. <Aggressive text follows. I do not consent to emailing aggressively.> So, you added the pluralization to "mother" yourself, further escalating an report already containing hyperbole around tensions between vulnerable groups, to try to pretend it is white peoples' lives who are threatened by racism. Like complaining about the romans who died in a gladiator rebellion. THIS FAKE SPREAD OF CULTURE GETS REAL PEOPLE KILLED. STOP PLEASE. What you posted makes it incredibly obvious how the corporate mafia are splitting apart the people trying to grow safety, independence, and freedom. </Aggressive> It's so nice to put aggressive tags around that stupid way of talking. I support underdogs of both skin colors. - K There is proof inside many peoples' electronics. Proof that a marketing group would contract development of a frightening virus. A virus that responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what people see on their devices. A virus that alters political behavior en masse, for profit. On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 8:11 AM Zig the N.g <ziggerjoe@yandex.com> wrote:

Hi Karl, the link you requested below, was already in the email - just a bit further down if you have another look.

HTH, Zig

...

Hi Zig,

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020, 1:28 PM Zig the N.g <ziggerjoe@yandex.com> wrote:

...

Soros must be turning in his grave about now, as Whites are going ape over Blacks in America at the moment, as recent poll numbers actually

...

...

show (a rare day indeed), and it's no surprise, what with Black shootings of young White mothers, a vicious and

Sorry, could you maybe remind us of a link of this? Because it looks to me right now that you are accusing people who are commonly victims of murder, as causing it, which would spread more _actual_murder_of_Black_people_ and is likely grounds for criminal charges.

No more replies below.

relentless campaign of destroying our history and

...

culture, it's a total surprise to some that we aren't screaming for monthly Hug A Black days, sheesh! :

New Poll Shows More White Americans Now Oppose Black Lives Matter Than Support (Paul Joseph Watson via Summit News,)

https://summit.news/2020/07/21/new-poll-shows-majority-of-americans-now-oppo...

...

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/new-poll-shows-more-white-americans-now-...

...

After enjoying a surge in support following the death of George Floyd, a new polls reveals that a majority of white Americans now oppose

...

...

Black Lives Matter movement. ...

[Seriously, Paul Joseph Watson is on a freaking roll these days! What a trooper!]

On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 09:54:53AM +1000, Zig the N.g wrote:

...

Well well, finally BLM has decided to do Soros a favour and actually improve their public image, shooting a 24 year old mother of one in an ambush under a brigde while she was walking with her friends and fiancée.

... but earlier she did, or at least someone in her group did, respond to a black calling out "black lives matter" with the vile, racist, abhorrent slogan "all lives matter!"

How, just, absolutely!

BLM Supporters Ambush, Murder Young White Mother For Saying 'All Lives Matter'

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/blm-supporters-ambush-murder-young-white...

...

...

On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 08:46:07AM +1000, Zig the N.g wrote:

...

This might be obvious in hindsight, or I might just be

unfortunately slow to grasp things, but to this morning's delight, a "blame Trump" exercise actually surprises me. Go figure.

...

...

Presimably feeling the heat, Soros is for some strange reason

wanting his grand hurrah, the White color revolution being dished out on North America for the world to see, to NOT be blamed on Soros!

...

It's hard to get over the level's of chutzpah in this one, and

really, chops to Soros for at least __trying__ to pin the blame on someone as Project Veritas and other leaks ongoingly damn him in the public mind ...

...

... I guess "Putin dunnit" was beginning to wear a little thin..

and since for 30+ years the oligarchs have been stashing the cash over in

On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 02:53:55PM -0400, Karl wrote: properly the their

...

...

favourite Pooh Bear dictatorship, and now they're struggling to get it out, they might as well try to turn up the heat on MAGA Man.

...

...

"All's fair in war and color revolutions."

Quite sophístamicated:

Hedge Fund CIO: Trump Is Now Left With Two Darker Options - A

Domestic Civil Conflict And/Or A Chinese Conflict

...

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/hedge-fund-cio-trump-now-left-two-darker-o...

...

...

...

...

report already containing hyperbole around tensions between vulnerable groups, to try to pretend it is white peoples' lives who are threatened by racism. Like complaining about the romans who died in a gladiator rebellion. THIS FAKE SPREAD OF CULTURE GETS REAL PEOPLE KILLED. STOP PLEASE. What you posted makes it incredibly obvious how the corporate mafia are splitting apart the people trying to grow safety, independence, and freedom. </Aggressive>

It's so nice to put aggressive tags around that stupid way of talking. I support underdogs of both skin colors.

It's funny that you think you have to apologize for talking clearly. It's also fucked up. You should stop focusing on fake politeness.

It sounds like you've been through so much, it seems I might never fully understand. As a kid I used to imagine strangers out there who had really rough lives and didn't believe anyone cared for them, and I would just spend time holding love for whoever they were, in my mind. I know many others do this: obviously it is no replacement for action (and such people need a way to learn what action to take that actually accomplishes something). I worry when we speak with anger, we are heard with anger or fear, rather than understanding and empowerment. That's my experience: people don't help me when I express anger; the topic doesn't move forward. To translate: Two people exchanging "Fuck you!" "Fuck you too!" could instead be "Fuck how hard this is!" "Yeah let's do something about it!". I don't like using that word. If you say "fuck you" to mean "you're my bro", be aware that a good chunk of people will hear the opposite. Honestly, nothing seems to matter any more. Doesn't mean I don't spasm. Are you a coder, Punk? I used to code C++ a lot, liked to learn to reverse engineer stuff. Then american activism and corporate mafia and wtf and all. I guess it's really important to talk about how businesses are secretly financing the destruction of the lives of open source hackers as much as we can, so that future people can make things that work rather than just getting gobbled up in droves like crowds of prey. At least I'm mostly just crazily spamming this one list right now ;p - K There is proof inside many peoples' electronics. Proof that a marketing group would contract development of a frightening virus. A virus that responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what people see on their devices. A virus that alters political behavior en masse, for profit.

I should also add a big thank you Karl, for bringing me into awareness of something I need to improve. It is sometimes not easy to receive such insights (my usual human instinct is to respond reactively and defensively). So, thanks. Zig

I'm aware of whites killing blacks for sport, in the present day. I don't have exposure to blacks killing whites, and honestly there are so many of us and our way of life seems so harmful to me, it seems the lesser issue to me.

Your almost explicit sanctioning (in the words you chose to use) of the "culling of one subgroup of our community" is abhorrent, no matter the skin colour of the sub group you target in this way. And your stated excuse that "our way of life seems harmful to me" can never ever be a sufficient excuse for the culling of ANY sub group of ANY colour. Sanction the culling of one sub group (as these words just did) and you sanction the culling of any and every sub group, i.e. everybody, which is despotism, and makes you look like a despot when you say such things. This is one of the problems in the "Black" Lives Matter movement - people get lulled into literal extermination agendas, thinking they are signalling great virtue by doing so. When we sanction the murder of a sub group, we sanction the destruction of the lives of our fellow Souls, and this is a despotic position, an evil position that you appear to take (evil is that which opposes my life, for any individual value of "my"). We must live a higher ethic collectively, and Karl, I encourage you to do so.

Before we came to the USA where I lived, it was covered in free black people.

This makes no sense to me. I cannot understand what you are saying, by reading the words you wrote.

We have yet to give their few remaining cultures and grandchildren recompense for their genocide for us to replace their culture with ours.

Again, this is, unfortunately, very unclear, and appears to assume collectivist guilt (a fundamentally Marxist propaganda) and other communication problems. If you wish to help heal the world, I suggest learning to speak (write) more clearly, for example, by limiting each sentence to a single concept. (It is a bully tactic to combine multiple unclear and unsupported concepts into one mashed up sentence, and for those unaware, presents too great a barrier to defend themselves, or to defend sanity, against such bullying.) Please stop using such bullying techniques.

We then went to Africa and did the same. We have had 1 male black president; my black roommate in college said his high school advisor told him he would never be able to go to college. Mine gave me many to choose from.

Again a mish mash of concepts and partial "non" facts - I realise you may be trying to speak from facts, but your facts are not my facts except that you slow down, presenting them in a way that others can hear, and actually discuss with you. If you don't want discussion, then again this would be your choice to use such bullying tactics.

I have been a cyberslave myself, and know some terror of running until your shoes break and your feet get frostbite, to escape from an environment where everybody you can reach supports you not being free. There are still people who believe blacks to be slaves, and they act on their beliefs in terrifying ways.

There are fewer black people than white people. We need to protect them or they will die off.

Again you make assertions without support of facts. That is a diatribe, not a conversation. You may or may not want conversation - that is a matter for you. You might want to ground your words in truth rather than in propaganda. Without truth, how do you know whose agenda you are pushing, perhaps even thinking it is your own agenda? (For one example, why are you proposing to massively increase the population in China of blacks, just to achieve some misguided idea of "equality in China" - do you thing the Chinese would agree with you that they should massively increase theil Black population so you can "appease your White guilt"??)

People talking about white racism seem to be describing minority rights as unfair ... That it hurts white people to defend black people?

No. Karl, good communication is not easy, it takes real effort and practice and writing, and reviewing your own words and rewriting as necessary. If you make efforts, some will assist. If you stick to cheap bullying and other tactics, little space is left for meaningful communication. Good luck,

On Sun, Aug 02, 2020 at 11:13:37PM -0400, Karl wrote:

You didn't respond to my one question to understand you other than "no"! =(

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 10:32 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:

...

...

I'm aware of whites killing blacks for sport, in the present day. I don't have exposure to blacks killing whites, and honestly there are so many of us and our way of life seems so harmful to me, it seems the lesser issue to me.

Karl, you said: "whites [are] killing blacks for sport" You then said: "[regarding] blacks killing whites ... there are so many of us and our way of life seems so harmful ..., it seems the lesser issue to me" Karl, do you wish to rephrase these words you used? At the moment, I am hearing you sanctioning the killing of Whites, by Blacks, because "there are so many of us" and also because, you say, "our way of life seems so harmful". And again Karl, when I read these words you used, I hear you sanctioning, that is justifying and almost explicitly supporting "blacks killing whites" for those two reasons that you cited. Again I ask you Karl, do you wish to retract what you appear to be saying? Or, do you wish to re-word what you are saying so that it is clearer, reflecting more accurately in some way, what you're (trying to) say? The rest of the conversation below, whether you meant it to or not, flows from this beginning of this conversation, and so until we get clarity and reach an accord or understanding of one another here at the beginning, then the rest will likely be, at best, talking at "crossed purposes to one another" as they say... (PS, you complain at the top there, of me providing "insufficient" answer to one of your many unclear sentences which was at the very bottom of your email, yet we appear stuck at the beginning, where you have either overlooked, or perhaps not understood what I was asking you in some detail and clarity (see immediately below)...)

...

Your almost explicit sanctioning (in the words you chose to use) of the "culling of one subgroup of our community" is abhorrent, no matter the skin colour of the sub group you target in this way.

And your stated excuse that "our way of life seems harmful to me" can never ever be a sufficient excuse for the culling of ANY sub group of ANY colour.

Sanction the culling of one sub group (as these words just did) and you sanction the culling of any and every sub group, i.e. everybody, which is despotism, and makes you look like a despot when you say such things.

You are saying that all groups (all people) are precious, right? I agree with this strongly. And what do you think of long term trends of change?

This is one of the problems in the "Black" Lives Matter movement - people

...

get lulled into literal extermination agendas, thinking they are signalling great virtue by doing so.

This makes no sense to me.

I have asked you again - see above.

When we sanction the murder of a sub group, we sanction the destruction of

...

the lives of our fellow Souls, and this is a despotic position, an evil position that you appear to take (evil is that which opposes my life, for any individual value of "my").

By finding a shared concept between us, you are mediating.

I do not believe in evil. I do not believe anything opposes the life of another.

Bullets, when accurately shot, directly oppose the life of a human. Are you saying this is not true?

Engaging another life at all indicates value for its spirit in some way.

You said evil does not exist. You earlier said that you are personally aware of Whites shooting Blacks for sport. And, now you say that evil does not exist. The fact that you say both that you are personally aware of Whites shooting Blacks for sport, and that evil does not exist, is very strange. As puported by you, those "Whites shooting Blacks for sport", would seem on any view of your assertion (presented to us with zero facts in support) to be a plain and simple example of some people opposing the lives of others (with such intent that they would murder them "for sport"). Why do you say that your own assertion (as fact-free as it is at this point in time to me) that you know of "Whites killing Blacks for sport", is NOT an example of evil?

We must live a higher ethic collectively, and Karl, I encourage you to do

...

so.

Thanks. Let's archive this list on a blockchain.

I think there is not a lot of benefit to doing so, and many more important jobs we could do anyway.

...

Before we came to the USA where I lived, it was covered in free black

...

people.

This makes no sense to me. I cannot understand what you are saying, by reading the words you wrote.

Sorry, I wrote "lived" instead of "live". Does that clear it up? Before

No.

white people came to the western continent I live on, it was covered in indigenous folk who had well established ways of life that mostly need

So "indigenous folk of North America" are black, or I guess you just referred to them as black? There are very real and different racial issues in the USA, and I don't think conflating them is very useful.

large tracts of healthy wilderness in order to not die off.

So, some "bad shit" has happened in the past. I agree with you. There are many examples, for example the current Australian Aborigines are actually from India, and only some 4000 years on this continent, before which there were an exclusively Polynesian population who were almost completely massacred into non-existence by the migrating Indians. There were also the smalls who lived in the Blue Mountains area West of Sydney, New South Wales, and they were also massacred into non existence by the present day "Aborigines" from sub continental India. Yes, some bad shit has happened and inside of humans is the capacity for great evil. --------- end of responses

...

We have yet to give their few remaining cultures and grandchildren

...

recompense for their genocide for us to replace their culture with ours.

Again, this is, unfortunately, very unclear, and appears to assume collectivist guilt (a fundamentally Marxist propaganda) and other communication problems.

Tell me about collectivist guilt; never heard of it. Is Marxism relevent and inherently bad? I don't know its details.

My main point is not culling these numerous groups.

Indigenous groups appear to struggle to survive. Their treaties are not respected. Their land is craftily taken for profit like mining operations. Their people are indoctrinated to buy and consume things as a new way of life. These things are a small subset of how we are culling them.

If you wish to help heal the world, I suggest learning to speak (write)

...

more clearly, for example, by limiting each sentence to a single concept.

I'm not sure what's new to you, but I've edited some sentences to separate things out.

(It is a bully tactic to combine multiple unclear and unsupported concepts

...

into one mashed up sentence, and for those unaware, presents too great a barrier to defend themselves, or to defend sanity, against such bullying.)

This is a bad habit I have. I used to call it oppression and avoid it, I don't remember what kind.

It seems a little helpful to bully back when there's too much, confusing.

====Cool sentence below====

...

Please stop using such bullying techniques.

====Rad sentence above====

<could use help stopping, save world with excess?>

...

We then went to Africa and did the same. We have had 1 male black

...

president; my black roommate in college said his high school advisor told him he would never be able to go to college. Mine gave me many to choose from.

Again a mish mash of concepts and partial "non" facts - I realise you may be trying to speak from facts, but your facts are not my facts except that you slow down, presenting them in a way that others can hear, and actually discuss with you.

If you don't want discussion, then again this would be your choice to use such bullying tactics.

Did you say what you mean here? It's not helpful to slow down? What kind of facts do you have?

...

I have been a cyberslave myself, and know some terror of running until your

...

shoes break and your feet get frostbite, to escape from an environment where everybody you can reach supports you not being free. There are still people who believe blacks to be slaves, and they act on their beliefs in terrifying ways.

There are fewer black people than white people. We need to protect them or they will die off.

Again you make assertions without support of facts.

Are you asking for supporting evidence to believe what I say? If so it's not hard to find and I may be able to add a little if you really don't believe these things; but I am on a $20 mobile phone.

That is a diatribe, not a conversation.

...

You may or may not want conversation - that is a matter for you.

I feel this way about your end too.

You might want to ground your words in truth rather than in propaganda.

...

Without truth, how do you know whose agenda you are pushing, perhaps even thinking it is your own agenda?

I don't know what you are talking about here, and I'm irritated to have to say that. Agendas are in all of our culture. Truth is reality which I stated. Personal reasons are also very important for me, and it would be good if we could give each other the trust of relating our experienced with relevent honesty. Are you asking for evidence? Of something in particular?

(For one example, why are you proposing to massively increase the

...

population in China of blacks, just to achieve some misguided idea of "equality in China" - do you thing the Chinese would agree with you that they should massively increase theil Black population so you can "appease your White guilt"??)

It seems.obvious to me that what you are saying here makes no sense. China was the tiananmen thing some time ago?

Mediation comes from my heart. I've never been to China.

...

People talking about white racism seem to be describing minority rights as

...

unfair ... That it hurts white people to defend black people?

No.

It is so hard to learn from such a short answer. It sounds like you believe white people are being wiped out by black people?

(I'm imagining a graph of population here, but I don't want to argue with you when I need to learn where you come from to stop threatening your views.)

Karl, good communication is not easy, it takes real effort and practice and

...

writing, and reviewing your own words and rewriting as necessary.

This is so painful and reminds me of my childhood of bullying! You talk about China like it is relevent!

What you mean to say is that both of us are rapidly learning to become incredibly good communicators ;P

But thank you I do need the pressure. Hard next to politics.

If you make efforts, some will assist. If you stick to cheap bullying and

...

other tactics, little space is left for meaningful communication.

Spirit never dies. Meaningful communication is the only thing that exists.

...

On Mon, Aug 03, 2020 at 07:26:11AM -0400, Karl wrote:

I'll respond to each thing you said with fewer words than you used, for clarity.

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 12:09 AM Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:

...

On Sun, Aug 02, 2020 at 11:13:37PM -0400, Karl wrote:

...

You didn't respond to my one question to understand you other than "no"! =(

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 10:32 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:

...

...

I'm aware of whites killing blacks for sport, in the present day. I don't have exposure to blacks killing whites, and honestly there are so many of us and our way of life seems so harmful to me, it seems the lesser issue to me.

Karl, you said: "whites [are] killing blacks for sport"

You then said: "[regarding] blacks killing whites ... there are so many of us and our way of life seems so harmful ..., it seems the lesser issue to me"

Karl, do you wish to rephrase these words you used?

At the moment, I am hearing you sanctioning the killing of Whites, by Blacks, because "there are so many of us" and also because, you say, "our way of life seems so harmful".

I do not sanction any kind of killing. I prioritize whose life to save.

Karl, you say, and I'll quote only one last time: "blacks killing whites ... seems the lesser issue to me", and you say this immediately after alleging "whites killing blacks for sport", and so with these words, and with this juxtaposition that you put to us, you dismiss the killing of whites, by blacks, as "the lesser issue to [you]". You then give two justifications for the killing of whites by blacks (in comparison to the purported by you, killing of blacks by whites) when you say both a) "honestly there are so many of us" and b) "our way of life seems so harmful to me". From these words there is no statement from you that you wish to preserve the lives of whites, only to blame them for "killing blacks for sport" which you allege to be true in "recent times", and in fact, you dismiss (in these words you use) the preservation of the lives of whites, repeatedly, with your stated justifications and with your statement further below that "Death happens: the question is whether we hold it as a goal". So according to you Karl, when it comes to whites killing blacks it happens as you allege "for sport" and you seem to imply that we must stop this "to preserve blacks" and according to you we must "fight to preserve .. their [blacks] numbers", but when it comes to blacks killing whites, you justify your failure to defend the right of whites to live (to "preserve their numbers") because you say "honestly there are so many of us" and further you add that 'our way of life is "so harmful"', and you say these things without any suggestion that the numbers ought be irrelevant (in fact you raised the very issue that the numbers of "white lives" is in fact a ground on which you dismiss the preservation of white lives). Karl, based on this exchange so far, you are using words, and defending positions which you are putting to us, which are abhorrent to any Soul who values all others, all lives irrespective of skin color, and these positions when held sufficiently, lead directly to great despotism upon people. Further, you appear either intentionally or unintentionally oblivious to the plain implications which normal people infer and take from your apparently quite carefully chosen words (and if you did not personally choose your words, but merely parrot what others have said to you, then you are not a thinking person of these words, and in that case you are speaking carelessly, but still very dangerously). Further, you repeatedly deny the existence of evil, and below say that you "do not believe in evil", and that you "do not believe anything opposes the life of another" (again, these are your exact words) and you say further that bullets used to murder another are not an example of evil, but instead show us only that bullets and murderers are according to you "[only] isolated parts of the system that relate to producing the death, coming out in placing human blame on a metal bullet without context" - and you say this is without context, even though the context was named (murder) and even though in fact it was you who raised this very context (the purported killing of blacks for "sport") and you conclude all this by saying that "behaviour we hate can exist in systems we love" (as though those words explain your position and as though "hate" has nothing to do with evil, since evil according to you does not exist, and whites who you purport 'murder blacks for sport' are not evil but are merely people who according to you "just believe different things are good than we do"). Karl I take an opposite position on evil to you, I stand for righteousness, and I stand against evil, I choose to stand in the face of those who engage in evil, in particular murder and genocide of any sub group in our community, and I seek that such people be held to full account for such evil deeds. I have a conscience, and by my conscience I know good from evil, and I stand for good, and I stand opposed to evil! Karl, to me you appear very mixed up, unable to acknowledge simple evil acts which you yourself put to us, and you appear mixed up to the point of being a real danger, a cog in a machine which has a hidden intention to bring a great evil upon us all. To the extent that you are highlighting this brainwashing to us, you are useful to us. To the extent that you brainwash others with the same program which you are evidently enmeshed within, and to the extent that you support this evil program within others who are already brainwashed (by your words both denying and justifying evil), then you are acting in a way both contrary to your own interests, but critically, as a menace to us all. By holding so strongly to your contradictions of the basic question of good versus evil, Karl you demonstrate that you are quite possibly a great danger, a source of evil propaganda which has a "denied agenda", possibly not visible even to your own self, and a source of a quite sophisticated justification for evil acts done by others. Karl, I suggest you pray for redemption, and pray that your eyes and your conscience be opened so that you might see that which is hidden to you and is inside the words you are using, and pray that you see such things so that you might stop spreading such damaging words, and so that you might therefore not damage others with your confusion. If you find it difficult to pray, then find Christians who pray, and ask them to pray for you. ---------------------------------

Death happens: the question is whether we hold it as a goal.

It was clear in what I said that I was not sanctioning killing.

It sounds like you are shocked or angered hearing my views of whites as having a harmful way of life, and being less important to fight to preserve due to their numbers? Please answer this question, I am still a beginner in learning to hear and understand others and need some guidance I understand.

And again Karl, when I read these words you used, I hear you sanctioning,

...

that is justifying and almost explicitly supporting "blacks killing whites" for those two reasons that you cited.

...

Again I ask you Karl, do you wish to retract what you appear to be saying?

Your words, not mine. I murder children already myself, learning to stop with this kind BLM movement as inspiration. Saw a lot of black people die.

Or, do you wish to re-word what you are saying so that it is clearer,

...

reflecting more accurately in some way, what you're (trying to) say?

...

The rest of the conversation below, whether you meant it to or not, flows from this beginning of this conversation, and so until we get clarity and reach an accord or understanding of one another here at the beginning, then the rest will likely be, at best, talking at "crossed purposes to one another" as they say...

This is because we have emotions, I suppose.

...

(PS, you complain at the top there, of me providing "insufficient" answer to one of your many unclear sentences which was at the very bottom of your email, yet we appear stuck at the beginning, where you have either overlooked, or perhaps not understood what I was asking you in some detail and clarity (see immediately below)...)

You imply blame on me for you sticking at the beginning here. Maybe you picked up my frustration at responding to so many following things that charge the emotions from a place I don't understand.

What's relevent is that asking the question comes before stating differences. Reduces disconnection.

...

...

Your almost explicit sanctioning (in the words you chose to use) of the

...

"culling of one subgroup of our community" is abhorrent, no matter the skin colour of the sub group you target in this way.

And your stated excuse that "our way of life seems harmful to me" can never ever be a sufficient excuse for the culling of ANY sub group of ANY colour.

Sanction the culling of one sub group (as these words just did) and you sanction the culling of any and every sub group, i.e. everybody, which is despotism, and makes you look like a despot when you say such things.

...

You are saying that all groups (all people) are precious, right? I agree with this strongly. And what do you think of long term trends of change?

To reiterate, I believe all groups (all people) are precious, quoted above. This clarifies my starting statement.

...

...

This is one of the problems in the "Black" Lives Matter movement - people

...

get lulled into literal extermination agendas, thinking they are signalling great virtue by doing so.

This makes no sense to me.

I have asked you again - see above.

We don't want to exterminate people. <== Please reread my sentence and understand it. "We" here refers to you, and me.

This is a connecting point between us and opens an avenue to discuss how to work together.

...

When we sanction the murder of a sub group, we sanction the destruction of

...

...

the lives of our fellow Souls, and this is a despotic position, an evil position that you appear to take (evil is that which opposes my life, for any individual value of "my").

By finding a shared concept between us, you are mediating.

I do not believe in evil. I do not believe anything opposes the life of another.

Bullets, when accurately shot, directly oppose the life of a human.

Are you saying this is not true?

Yes; you're focusing only on the isolated parts of the system that relate to producing the death, coming out in placing human blame on a metal bullet without context.

...

Engaging another life at all indicates value for its spirit in

...

some way.

You said evil does not exist.

You earlier said that you are personally aware of Whites shooting Blacks for sport.

And, now you say that evil does not exist.

I'm used to holding both of these. It means behavior we hate can exist in systems we love. With some contemplation you can see they don't contradict.

The fact that you say both that you are personally aware of Whites shooting

...

Blacks for sport, and that evil does not exist, is very strange.

As puported by you, those "Whites shooting Blacks for sport", would seem on any view of your assertion (presented to us with zero facts in support) to be a plain and simple example of some people opposing the lives of others (with such intent that they would murder them "for sport").

Why do you say that your own assertion (as fact-free as it is at this point in time to me) that you know of "Whites killing Blacks for sport", is NOT an example of evil?

What is evil to you? To me it seems made up to cause war. People who harm just believe different things are good than we do. Productive communication both parties value and hear resolves that.

...

We must live a higher ethic collectively, and Karl, I encourage you to do

...

...

so.

Thanks. Let's archive this list on a blockchain.

I think there is not a lot of benefit to doing so, and many more important jobs we could do anyway.

It is great to start working with you. What do you know to be important? I make a lot of decisions based on fear of cover-up/cleanup. I see preservation as saving lives and aiding in making good decisions later.

...

...

Before we came to the USA where I lived, it was covered in free black

...

...

people.

This makes no sense to me. I cannot understand what you are saying, by reading the words you wrote.

Sorry, I wrote "lived" instead of "live". Does that clear it up? Before

No.

Hrm .. is this related to China?

...

...

white people came to the western continent I live on, it was covered in indigenous folk who had well established ways of life that mostly need

So "indigenous folk of North America" are black, or I guess you just referred to them as black?

...

There are very real and different racial issues in the USA, and I don't think conflating them is very useful.

Seems to be to me. African and Native people both had their aboriginal cultures and histories destroyed by the urges of white people; the similarity is helpful in making decisions to protect the world. There.is something about us we need.to reign in, or people die en masse.

...

large tracts of healthy wilderness in order to not die off.

So, some "bad shit" has happened in the past.

I agree with you.

There are many examples, for example the current Australian Aborigines are actually from India, and only some 4000 years on this continent, before which there were an exclusively Polynesian population who were almost completely massacred into non-existence by the migrating Indians. There were also the smalls who lived in the Blue Mountains area West of Sydney, New South Wales, and they were also massacred into non existence by the present day "Aborigines" from sub continental India.

Yes, some bad shit has happened and inside of humans is the capacity for great evil.

Here I can more agree with the word "evil" - behaviors, not people.

Roughly, all people need to be able to live their lives. We are asking for ways to come together to make things right.

We're arguing a lot as we learn to listen before ourselves expressing.

--------- end of responses

...

...

...

We have yet to give their few remaining cultures and grandchildren

...

recompense for their genocide for us to replace their culture with ours.

Again, this is, unfortunately, very unclear, and appears to assume collectivist guilt (a fundamentally Marxist propaganda) and other communication problems.

Tell me about collectivist guilt; never heard of it. Is Marxism relevent and inherently bad? I don't know its details.

My main point is not culling these numerous groups.

Indigenous groups appear to struggle to survive. Their treaties are not respected. Their land is craftily taken for profit like mining operations. Their people are indoctrinated to buy and consume things as a new way of life. These things are a small subset of how we are culling them.

If you wish to help heal the world, I suggest learning to speak (write)

...

more clearly, for example, by limiting each sentence to a single concept.

I'm not sure what's new to you, but I've edited some sentences to separate things out.

(It is a bully tactic to combine multiple unclear and unsupported concepts

...

into one mashed up sentence, and for those unaware, presents too great a barrier to defend themselves, or to defend sanity, against such bullying.)

This is a bad habit I have. I used to call it oppression and avoid it, I don't remember what kind.

It seems a little helpful to bully back when there's too much, confusing.

====Cool sentence below====

...

Please stop using such bullying techniques.

====Rad sentence above====

<could use help stopping, save world with excess?>

...

We then went to Africa and did the same. We have had 1 male black

...

president; my black roommate in college said his high school advisor told him he would never be able to go to college. Mine gave me many to choose from.

Again a mish mash of concepts and partial "non" facts - I realise you may be trying to speak from facts, but your facts are not my facts except that you slow down, presenting them in a way that others can hear, and actually discuss with you.

If you don't want discussion, then again this would be your choice to use such bullying tactics.

Did you say what you mean here? It's not helpful to slow down? What kind of facts do you have?

...

...

shoes break and your feet get frostbite, to escape from an environment where everybody you can reach supports you not being free. There are still people who believe blacks to be slaves, and they act on their beliefs in terrifying ways.

There are fewer black people than white people. We need to protect

I have been a cyberslave myself, and know some terror of running until your them or

...

they will die off.

Again you make assertions without support of facts.

Are you asking for supporting evidence to believe what I say? If so it's not hard to find and I may be able to add a little if you really don't believe these things; but I am on a $20 mobile phone.

That is a diatribe, not a conversation.

...

You may or may not want conversation - that is a matter for you.

I feel this way about your end too.

You might want to ground your words in truth rather than in propaganda.

...

Without truth, how do you know whose agenda you are pushing, perhaps even thinking it is your own agenda?

I don't know what you are talking about here, and I'm irritated to have to say that. Agendas are in all of our culture. Truth is reality which I stated. Personal reasons are also very important for me, and it would be good if we could give each other the trust of relating our experienced with relevent honesty. Are you asking for evidence? Of something in particular?

...

population in China of blacks, just to achieve some misguided idea of "equality in China" - do you thing the Chinese would agree with you

(For one example, why are you proposing to massively increase the that

...

they should massively increase theil Black population so you can "appease your White guilt"??)

It seems.obvious to me that what you are saying here makes no sense. China was the tiananmen thing some time ago?

Mediation comes from my heart. I've never been to China.

...

People talking about white racism seem to be describing minority rights as

...

unfair ... That it hurts white people to defend black people?

No.

It is so hard to learn from such a short answer. It sounds like you believe white people are being wiped out by black people?

(I'm imagining a graph of population here, but I don't want to argue with you when I need to learn where you come from to stop threatening your views.)

Karl, good communication is not easy, it takes real effort and practice and

...

writing, and reviewing your own words and rewriting as necessary.

This is so painful and reminds me of my childhood of bullying! You talk about China like it is relevent!

What you mean to say is that both of us are rapidly learning to become incredibly good communicators ;P

But thank you I do need the pressure. Hard next to politics.

If you make efforts, some will assist. If you stick to cheap bullying and

...

other tactics, little space is left for meaningful communication.

Spirit never dies. Meaningful communication is the only thing that exists.

- phone signature goes here

...

I'd rather talk about evil though. What do you do when people are led to believe that good people are evil, and engage in great harm upon them to try to make the world right, and are then labeled as evil themselves because of this harm? Personally I believe that all evil is such situations. Every single <I do not consent to say>fucking</I do not> person has a deeply caring heart if you sit down and listen to them. _Every_single_person_. K - There is proof inside many peoples' electronics. Proof that a marketing group would contract development of a frightening virus. A virus that responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what people see on their devices. A virus that alters political behavior en masse, for profit. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 9:28 AM Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey Zenaan.

You have written too many strange interpretations of my words here for me to comprehend them. It sounds like you are implying I misspoke?

I VALUE THE PRESERVATION OF _ALL_ SOULS, AND SO DO YOU.

K

-

There is proof inside many peoples' electronics. Proof that a marketing group would contract development of a frightening virus. A virus that responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what people see on their devices. A virus that alters political behavior en masse, for profit.

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 9:07 AM Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:

...

On Mon, Aug 03, 2020 at 07:26:11AM -0400, Karl wrote:

...

I'll respond to each thing you said with fewer words than you used, for clarity.

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 12:09 AM Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:

...

On Sun, Aug 02, 2020 at 11:13:37PM -0400, Karl wrote:

...

You didn't respond to my one question to understand you other than "no"! =(

On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 10:32 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:

...

> I'm aware of whites killing blacks for sport, in the present day. I don't > have exposure to blacks killing whites, and honestly there are so many of > us and our way of life seems so harmful to me, it seems the lesser issue to > me.

Karl, you said: "whites [are] killing blacks for sport"

You then said: "[regarding] blacks killing whites ... there are so many of us and our way of life seems so harmful ..., it seems the lesser issue to me"

Karl, do you wish to rephrase these words you used?

At the moment, I am hearing you sanctioning the killing of Whites, by Blacks, because "there are so many of us" and also because, you say, "our way of life seems so harmful".

I do not sanction any kind of killing. I prioritize whose life to save.

Karl, you say, and I'll quote only one last time: "blacks killing whites ... seems the lesser issue to me", and you say this immediately after alleging "whites killing blacks for sport", and so with these words, and with this juxtaposition that you put to us, you dismiss the killing of whites, by blacks, as "the lesser issue to [you]".

You then give two justifications for the killing of whites by blacks (in comparison to the purported by you, killing of blacks by whites) when you say both a) "honestly there are so many of us" and b) "our way of life seems so harmful to me".

From these words there is no statement from you that you wish to preserve the lives of whites, only to blame them for "killing blacks for sport" which you allege to be true in "recent times", and in fact, you dismiss (in these words you use) the preservation of the lives of whites, repeatedly, with your stated justifications and with your statement further below that "Death happens: the question is whether we hold it as a goal".

So according to you Karl, when it comes to whites killing blacks it happens as you allege "for sport" and you seem to imply that we must stop this "to preserve blacks" and according to you we must "fight to preserve .. their [blacks] numbers", but when it comes to blacks killing whites, you justify your failure to defend the right of whites to live (to "preserve their numbers") because you say "honestly there are so many of us" and further you add that 'our way of life is "so harmful"', and you say these things without any suggestion that the numbers ought be irrelevant (in fact you raised the very issue that the numbers of "white lives" is in fact a ground on which you dismiss the preservation of white lives).

Karl, based on this exchange so far, you are using words, and defending positions which you are putting to us, which are abhorrent to any Soul who values all others, all lives irrespective of skin color, and these positions when held sufficiently, lead directly to great despotism upon people.

Further, you appear either intentionally or unintentionally oblivious to the plain implications which normal people infer and take from your apparently quite carefully chosen words (and if you did not personally choose your words, but merely parrot what others have said to you, then you are not a thinking person of these words, and in that case you are speaking carelessly, but still very dangerously).

Further, you repeatedly deny the existence of evil, and below say that you "do not believe in evil", and that you "do not believe anything opposes the life of another" (again, these are your exact words) and you say further that bullets used to murder another are not an example of evil, but instead show us only that bullets and murderers are according to you "[only] isolated parts of the system that relate to producing the death, coming out in placing human blame on a metal bullet without context" - and you say this is without context, even though the context was named (murder) and even though in fact it was you who raised this very context (the purported killing of blacks for "sport") and you conclude all this by saying that "behaviour we hate can exist in systems we love" (as though those words explain your position and as though "hate" has nothing to do with evil, since evil according to you does not exist, and whites who you purport 'murder blacks for sport' are not evil but are merely people who according to you "just believe different things are good than we do").

Karl I take an opposite position on evil to you, I stand for righteousness, and I stand against evil, I choose to stand in the face of those who engage in evil, in particular murder and genocide of any sub group in our community, and I seek that such people be held to full account for such evil deeds.

I have a conscience, and by my conscience I know good from evil, and I stand for good, and I stand opposed to evil!

Karl, to me you appear very mixed up, unable to acknowledge simple evil acts which you yourself put to us, and you appear mixed up to the point of being a real danger, a cog in a machine which has a hidden intention to bring a great evil upon us all.

To the extent that you are highlighting this brainwashing to us, you are useful to us.

To the extent that you brainwash others with the same program which you are evidently enmeshed within, and to the extent that you support this evil program within others who are already brainwashed (by your words both denying and justifying evil), then you are acting in a way both contrary to your own interests, but critically, as a menace to us all.

By holding so strongly to your contradictions of the basic question of good versus evil, Karl you demonstrate that you are quite possibly a great danger, a source of evil propaganda which has a "denied agenda", possibly not visible even to your own self, and a source of a quite sophisticated justification for evil acts done by others.

Karl, I suggest you pray for redemption, and pray that your eyes and your conscience be opened so that you might see that which is hidden to you and is inside the words you are using, and pray that you see such things so that you might stop spreading such damaging words, and so that you might therefore not damage others with your confusion.

If you find it difficult to pray, then find Christians who pray, and ask them to pray for you.

---------------------------------

...

Death happens: the question is whether we hold it as a goal.

It was clear in what I said that I was not sanctioning killing.

It sounds like you are shocked or angered hearing my views of whites as having a harmful way of life, and being less important to fight to preserve due to their numbers? Please answer this question, I am still a beginner in learning to hear and understand others and need some guidance I understand.

And again Karl, when I read these words you used, I hear you sanctioning,

...

that is justifying and almost explicitly supporting "blacks killing whites" for those two reasons that you cited.

...

Again I ask you Karl, do you wish to retract what you appear to be

saying?

...

Your words, not mine. I murder children already myself, learning to stop with this kind BLM movement as inspiration. Saw a lot of black people die.

Or, do you wish to re-word what you are saying so that it is clearer,

...

reflecting more accurately in some way, what you're (trying to) say?

...

The rest of the conversation below, whether you meant it to or not,

flows

...

from this beginning of this conversation, and so until we get clarity and reach an accord or understanding of one another here at the beginning, then the rest will likely be, at best, talking at "crossed purposes to one another" as they say...

This is because we have emotions, I suppose.

...

(PS, you complain at the top there, of me providing "insufficient"

answer

...

to one of your many unclear sentences which was at the very bottom of your email, yet we appear stuck at the beginning, where you have either overlooked, or perhaps not understood what I was asking you in some detail and clarity (see immediately below)...)

You imply blame on me for you sticking at the beginning here. Maybe you picked up my frustration at responding to so many following things that charge the emotions from a place I don't understand.

What's relevent is that asking the question comes before stating differences. Reduces disconnection.

...

...

...

"culling of one subgroup of our community" is abhorrent, no matter the skin colour of the sub group you target in this way.

And your stated excuse that "our way of life seems harmful to me" can never ever be a sufficient excuse for the culling of ANY sub group of ANY colour.

Sanction the culling of one sub group (as these words just did) and you sanction the culling of any and every sub group, i.e. everybody, which is despotism, and makes you look like a despot when you say such

Your almost explicit sanctioning (in the words you chose to use) of the things.

...

You are saying that all groups (all people) are precious, right? I agree with this strongly. And what do you think of long term trends of change?

To reiterate, I believe all groups (all people) are precious, quoted above. This clarifies my starting statement.

...

...

This is one of the problems in the "Black" Lives Matter movement -

people

...

...

...

get lulled into literal extermination agendas, thinking they are signalling great virtue by doing so.

This makes no sense to me.

I have asked you again - see above.

We don't want to exterminate people. <== Please reread my sentence and understand it. "We" here refers to you, and me.

This is a connecting point between us and opens an avenue to discuss how to work together.

...

...

...

the lives of our fellow Souls, and this is a despotic position, an evil position that you appear to take (evil is that which opposes my

...

...

any individual value of "my").

By finding a shared concept between us, you are mediating.

I do not believe in evil. I do not believe anything opposes the

When we sanction the murder of a sub group, we sanction the destruction of life, for life of

...

another.

Bullets, when accurately shot, directly oppose the life of a human.

Are you saying this is not true?

Yes; you're focusing only on the isolated parts of the system that relate to producing the death, coming out in placing human blame on a metal bullet without context.

...

Engaging another life at all indicates value for its spirit in

...

some way.

You said evil does not exist.

You earlier said that you are personally aware of Whites shooting Blacks for sport.

And, now you say that evil does not exist.

I'm used to holding both of these. It means behavior we hate can exist in systems we love. With some contemplation you can see they don't contradict.

The fact that you say both that you are personally aware of Whites shooting

...

Blacks for sport, and that evil does not exist, is very strange.

As puported by you, those "Whites shooting Blacks for sport", would seem on any view of your assertion (presented to us with zero facts in support) to be a plain and simple example of some people opposing the lives of others (with such intent that they would murder them "for sport").

Why do you say that your own assertion (as fact-free as it is at this point in time to me) that you know of "Whites killing Blacks for sport", is NOT an example of evil?

What is evil to you? To me it seems made up to cause war. People who harm just believe different things are good than we do. Productive communication both parties value and hear resolves that.

...

We must live a higher ethic collectively, and Karl, I encourage you to do

...

...

so.

Thanks. Let's archive this list on a blockchain.

I think there is not a lot of benefit to doing so, and many more important jobs we could do anyway.

It is great to start working with you. What do you know to be important? I make a lot of decisions based on fear of cover-up/cleanup. I see preservation as saving lives and aiding in making good decisions later.

...

...

Before we came to the USA where I lived, it was covered in free black

...

> people.

This makes no sense to me. I cannot understand what you are saying, by reading the words you wrote.

Sorry, I wrote "lived" instead of "live". Does that clear it up? Before

No.

Hrm .. is this related to China?

...

...

white people came to the western continent I live on, it was covered in indigenous folk who had well established ways of life that mostly need

So "indigenous folk of North America" are black, or I guess you just referred to them as black?

...

There are very real and different racial issues in the USA, and I don't think conflating them is very useful.

Seems to be to me. African and Native people both had their aboriginal cultures and histories destroyed by the urges of white people; the similarity is helpful in making decisions to protect the world. There.is something about us we need.to reign in, or people die en masse.

...

large tracts of healthy wilderness in order to not die off.

So, some "bad shit" has happened in the past.

I agree with you.

There are many examples, for example the current Australian Aborigines are actually from India, and only some 4000 years on this continent, before which there were an exclusively Polynesian population who were almost completely massacred into non-existence by the migrating Indians. There were also the smalls who lived in the Blue Mountains area West of Sydney, New South Wales, and they were also massacred into non existence by the present day "Aborigines" from sub continental India.

Yes, some bad shit has happened and inside of humans is the capacity for great evil.

Here I can more agree with the word "evil" - behaviors, not people.

Roughly, all people need to be able to live their lives. We are asking for ways to come together to make things right.

We're arguing a lot as we learn to listen before ourselves expressing.

--------- end of responses

...

...

...

We have yet to give their few remaining cultures and grandchildren > recompense for their genocide for us to replace their culture

...

ours.

...

...

Again, this is, unfortunately, very unclear, and appears to assume collectivist guilt (a fundamentally Marxist propaganda) and other communication problems.

Tell me about collectivist guilt; never heard of it. Is Marxism relevent and inherently bad? I don't know its details.

My main point is not culling these numerous groups.

Indigenous groups appear to struggle to survive. Their treaties are not respected. Their land is craftily taken for profit like mining operations. Their people are indoctrinated to buy and consume

...

...

new way of life. These things are a small subset of how we are culling them.

If you wish to help heal the world, I suggest learning to speak (write)

...

more clearly, for example, by limiting each sentence to a single concept.

I'm not sure what's new to you, but I've edited some sentences to separate things out.

(It is a bully tactic to combine multiple unclear and unsupported concepts

...

into one mashed up sentence, and for those unaware, presents too great a barrier to defend themselves, or to defend sanity, against such bullying.)

This is a bad habit I have. I used to call it oppression and avoid it, I don't remember what kind.

It seems a little helpful to bully back when there's too much, confusing.

====Cool sentence below====

...

Please stop using such bullying techniques.

====Rad sentence above====

<could use help stopping, save world with excess?>

...

We then went to Africa and did the same. We have had 1 male black > president; my black roommate in college said his high school advisor told > him he would never be able to go to college. Mine gave me many to choose > from.

Again a mish mash of concepts and partial "non" facts - I realise you may be trying to speak from facts, but your facts are not my facts except

a that

...

...

you slow down, presenting them in a way that others can hear, and actually discuss with you.

If you don't want discussion, then again this would be your choice to use such bullying tactics.

Did you say what you mean here? It's not helpful to slow down? What kind of facts do you have?

...

I have been a cyberslave myself, and know some terror of running until your > shoes break and your feet get frostbite, to escape from an environment > where everybody you can reach supports you not being free. There are still > people who believe blacks to be slaves, and they act on their beliefs in > terrifying ways. > > There are fewer black people than white people. We need to

...

them

...

...

or > they will die off.

Again you make assertions without support of facts.

Are you asking for supporting evidence to believe what I say? If so it's not hard to find and I may be able to add a little if you really don't believe these things; but I am on a $20 mobile phone.

That is a diatribe, not a conversation.

...

You may or may not want conversation - that is a matter for you.

I feel this way about your end too.

You might want to ground your words in truth rather than in

...

...

...

Without truth, how do you know whose agenda you are pushing,

...

...

...

thinking it is your own agenda?

I don't know what you are talking about here, and I'm irritated to have to say that. Agendas are in all of our culture. Truth is reality which I stated. Personal reasons are also very important for me, and it would be good if we could give each other the trust of relating our experienced with relevent honesty. Are you asking for evidence? Of something in

even particular?

...

(For one example, why are you proposing to massively increase the

...

population in China of blacks, just to achieve some misguided

...

...

"equality in China" - do you thing the Chinese would agree with you

idea of that

...

...

they should massively increase theil Black population so you can "appease your White guilt"??)

It seems.obvious to me that what you are saying here makes no sense. China was the tiananmen thing some time ago?

Mediation comes from my heart. I've never been to China.

...

People talking about white racism seem to be describing minority rights as > unfair ... That it hurts white people to defend black people?

No.

It is so hard to learn from such a short answer. It sounds like you believe white people are being wiped out by black people?

(I'm imagining a graph of population here, but I don't want to argue with you when I need to learn where you come from to stop threatening your views.)

Karl, good communication is not easy, it takes real effort and

with things as protect propaganda. perhaps practice

...

and

...

...

writing, and reviewing your own words and rewriting as necessary.

This is so painful and reminds me of my childhood of bullying! You talk about China like it is relevent!

What you mean to say is that both of us are rapidly learning to become incredibly good communicators ;P

But thank you I do need the pressure. Hard next to politics.

If you make efforts, some will assist. If you stick to cheap bullying and

...

other tactics, little space is left for meaningful communication.

Spirit never dies. Meaningful communication is the only thing that exists.

- phone signature goes here

...

James it sounds like we've been exposed to significantly different media, giving us different beliefs. I have also experienced the oppression you describe, but for talking about the opposite things. Is this something you can hear? I have also never seen such a video: where did you see them? My knowledge of killing of blacks comes partly from hearing from individual people exposed to it. My closest friend's black roommate had to leave due to harassment from whites expressing dislike of blacks who actually broke her door down to get to her. Another left their college because they couldn't handle being around so many people who "shot niggers" over the weekend for fun and discussed this publically at the college. And as I've stated before on this list one of my friends was mediating a community of black people outside america when a ceo opened fire on them from a helicopter. This same friend was defending a community in arizona where people with black skin were dying. This got _no_ media attention at all. Black Mesa: the people are being driven extinct in silence. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 7:18 AM <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote:

On 2020-08-03 11:15, Karl wrote:

...

Thanks friend. What I have to say next doesn't really matter compared to not having to fight.

I'm aware of whites killing blacks for sport, in the present day.

Liar.

I see plenty of videos of blacks attacking whites for fun.

If it had ever happened to one black in all of America, you would have a better poster boy than the "jogger" who was accosted by three armed white people while jogging away from a burglary, and grabbed the gun of one of them by the wrong end.

If there is any "systemic racism" against a group of people, it's against white people. -Affirmative action for college acceptance -Mandatory diversity training at work -Diversity quota hires -Forced diversity in entertainment: music, movies, TV shows -Forced diversity in advertising -BLM support from EVERY MAJOR CORPORATION ON THE PLANET -Fired from your job for talking about any of this -Censored off the internet for talking about any of this

James, we have a lot of different beliefs here. I don't know where to go on uncensored channels to find the videos you describe. I consider uncensored social media to be scuttlebutt, mastodon, possibly steem ... What do you consider uncensored social media? I know these particular friends well enough to predict their behavior accurately and am pretty certain they are not lying. So I get emotionally charged when I read what you write, and it's hard to read much of it. My activist friend just wanted to cry and be heard about seeing his friends murdered around him. It was all he seemed to want. You mention a black jogger, but not the george floyd video everybody struggled to get recognised this year ... what do you know about the george floyd video? K - There is proof inside many peoples' electronics. Proof that a marketing group would contract development of a frightening virus. A virus that responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what people see on their devices. A virus that alters political behavior en masse, for profit. On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 9:35 PM <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote:

On 2020-08-03 21:37, Karl wrote:

...

James it sounds like we've been exposed to significantly different media, giving us different beliefs.

Just search uncensored social media. You will find huge numbers of videos of black gangs attacking whites.

Search the official organs of the state, such as the New York Times or CNN.

What do you find?

What do you find on the official organs of our officially unofficial state religion?

You find a black "jogger" who was accosted by three white men after committing a minor burglary, and grabbed the gun of one them by the wrong end.

...

My knowledge of killing of blacks comes partly from hearing from individual people exposed to it.

They are lying to you because it makes them holy. It is like Christians claiming to have witnessed miracles.

If any of miracles that they had witnessed actually happened, they would be in the front page of the New York Times every day for the next twenty years.

Everyone remembers Emmett Till, who was not in fact lynched, but murdered, like no end of men of all races who made a pass at someone else's wife. The problem was not that she was white and he was black, but that she had a jealous husband.

If in the entire history of the all of the United States, one black had been lynched who was not plausibly accused of some serious crime, that black man would be the poster boy for lynchings, not Emmett Till.

If these things are happening, how come we cannot walk down the street without being reminded of it by big character posters every ten feet?

...

My closest friend's black roommate had to leave due to harassment from whites expressing dislike of blacks who actually broke her door down to get to her.

Remember Jussie Smollet. If she was telling you the truth, why is every single such story that media hears turn out to be a lie?

Remember the Covington Boys.

The media are so hungry for such incidents, that they invent them. They search high and low for such incidents, and have not found one such incident in the past several decades. Remember all the drama about a garage door opener that someone thought looked vaguely like a noose.

Are you sure they did not express dislike of her because of theft and assault? Are you sure she did not just stop turning up to college because she got bored, and told a better sounding story?

If white people actually broke down the door of a black college student while expressing dislike of blacks, you would not be hearing it from her and I not be hearing it from you. I would be hearing it on television for days or weeks or months.

There has not been one arbitrary lynching for frivolous cause anywhere in the United States ever, nor one such incident as you describe anywhere in the United States in the past few decades.

The media has shouted no end of such stories from the rooftops, and not one single one has ever held up.

James, I hear you speaking of george floyd in ways that sound honest to me. It's not the opinion I usually hear when people sound honest about it. On Tue, Aug 4, 2020, 8:14 AM <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote:

On 2020-08-04 19:38, Karl wrote:

...

I know these particular friends well enough to predict their behavior accurately and am pretty certain they are not lying.

Yet somehow, strangely, in all of America, despite frantic and desperate search by the mainstream media, they have not been able to find what you so easily found.

Why don't you report one of these many cases of horrific white persecution of dindu nuffins to the mainstream media? You will be a bigger hero than Jussie Smollett or Crystal Gail Mangum or was Jackie Coakley was. You will be world famous for years.

What's important here is that what you are saying makes no sense to me. I was asking _how_ to find things. I haven't "easily found" any information on white persecution. Was my email to you changed in transit? PLEASE VERIFY YOU READ THIS PARAGRAPH, or relate around blockchaining the email to sort this out. Below it sounds like we have very different experiences and I haven't replied much more yet. It sounds like "black privilege" is a term used to build fairness in environments where "white privilege" (which is the only one I've heard) could be stimulating struggle. Usually we use the phrase "white privilege" in environments where blacks are struggling; it sounds like it could have spread to environments where the opposite is true.

...

You mention a black jogger, but not the george floyd video everybody struggled to get recognised this year ... what do you know about the george floyd video?

Every person in the world has seen the George Floyd video until they are sick of it.

George Floyd was wrongfully killed, after engaging in violent acts against black and white people, police among them, again and again again and again all his life, among them two armed robberies, one of a pregnant woman in her home, and getting a slap on the wrist for each of his crimes.

If one keeps getting in fights with authority figures, eventually one of them may well wrongfully kill one, but all the other times, they wrongfully let him go on his merry way.

George Floyd wrongfully started a fight with police, while out of his mind on drugs. Police wrongfully ended it - but it happened to him, and not to a white man, because George Floyd was out of his mind on a cocktail of drugs that might well have killed him if the police did not, and which certainly contributed to his death.

Meanwhile, at the George Floyd protests, many people have been wrongfully killed, many innocent people have had their homes and businesses burned down, many good men, many of them white, have suffered grave injuries.

The number of black unarmed non felons killed by police is absolutely insignificant. The number of white unarmed non felons killed by police is enormously larger, because black privilege means that cops cannot get away with doing that to blacks, and can get away with doing that to whites. There is clear and overwhelming discrimination by cops and judges against white people.

If a white man had George Floyd's record, he would not have been killed by police because he would still be in jail.

And if, when he eventually, at long, long, long last, got out of jail, he was killed the way George Floyd was killed, no one would notice and no one would care.

K - There is proof inside many peoples' electronics. Proof that a marketing group would contract development of a frightening virus. A virus that responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what people see on their devices. A virus that alters political behavior en masse, for profit.

On 2020-08-04 22:35, Karl wrote:

...

On 2020-08-04 19:38, Karl wrote:

...

I know these particular friends well enough to predict their behavior accurately and am pretty certain they are not lying.

Yet somehow, strangely, in all of America, despite frantic and desperate search by the mainstream media, they have not been able to find what you so easily found.

Why don't you report one of these many cases of horrific white persecution of dindu nuffins to the mainstream media? You will be a bigger hero than Jussie Smollett or Crystal Gail Mangum or was Jackie Coakley was. You will be world famous for years.

What's important here is that what you are saying makes no sense to me. I was asking _how_ to find things. I haven't "easily found" any information on white persecution.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Beat+Whitey+Night https://archive.is/VJTyt https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Knockout+Game https://heavy.com/news/2013/11/knockout-game-videos-watch-punching-new-york/ Where are the white racist equivalents? Jussie Smollett?

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020, 14:56 Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:

you are the worst trash on the planet. james

Do not be so unfair, darling. This planet also has ZH, President Dump, President Bolsonaro (Brazil), KKK, corrupt politicians, and a lot of disgusting trash like James... :((

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020, 16:01 Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:

I was referrring to US trash in general. They are the worst trash on the planet. James is just one sample of US trash.

Do you know why I respect him much more than ZH? :-/ James is intelligent and has an elegant writing. Even when saying the most horrible things, the most detestable lies, or offending me in a pretty nasty way, he keeps interesting... and it means he is f* dangerous, a person to fear, not a simple boring clown without a soul like ZH and - of course! - all his fake hysterically profiles and/or messages. J, I do love you. I know you can hate me forever for saying it publicly, but it is a way of giving free counseling to Karl and other lost people here. They need to learn how to identify the - "absence of", maybe? - "heart" behind the masks, hidden for polite words.

On 2020-08-06 04:06, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

...

On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:09:23 +1000 jamesd at echeque.com wrote:

...

Where are the white racist equivalents?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States

Slaves in Africa were generally

Sorry James, the topic was slaves in the US, not in africa, and it was an example of the way the US was 'founded', run and is still run by white supremacists. Besides, slaves were 'bred' in your shithole, I mean, Your country. I also linked a sample of the many organized crimes that your country commits at a global scale. All those crimes are commited by white, jew-kkkristian, fascist, anti-libertarian, white-supremacists like you, with some help from the joos. So maybe stop whining about blacks a bit? Let me mention yet another entertaining fact about the history of Your Country. The 'democratic' party that you pretend to hate was the party of 'free trade', slavery and genocide. You know, jefferson, jackson and co. In other words, your white-supremacist, fake-libertarian views are exactly those of the demrats.

On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 07:48:45 +1000 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

The Topic was Karl's deluded belief that whites were physically attacking blacks in America with impunity today,

so I provided a list of all the crimes that whites commit at a global scale, including attacking and murdering people of all races. I also mentioned basic historical facts showing the enslavement and persecution of 'dark' people by whites, in the US. And elsewhere.

There were white slaves in America before there were black slaves in America. The Muslim world had been raiding white countries for slaves for a long time.

are you saying there were muslims in north america? The north american califate? Muslims enslaved whites in 'america'? or are you drunk? or what

The Barbary wars were fought over Muslims enslaving white Americans.

that was the first time the US cunts, led by jefferson, did a crusade/jihad against 'al qaeda', because 'national security'. Yes, that's another hilarious aspect of the history of the US. The slave owning jefferson cunt, who wrote the jefferson bible, was also a crusader against 'muslamic terrists'.

American slaves were not enslaved by Americans but purchased from black people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_breeding_in_the_United_States Hey James, how did you manage to finish primary-state-school-indoctrination-camp without learning any history? Also, looks like you can't even speak english. Yes, slaves were 'imported' from africa and then kept as slaves in the US shithole. Keeping somebody as a slave is tantamout to 'enslaving' him.

On 2020-08-07 07:12, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

Sorry James, the topic was slaves in the US, not in africa,

The question is, who enslaved them? Whites did not enslave blacks. Mostly other blacks enslaved them. Muslims who were frequently mighty black looking enslaved whites, leading to the Barbary wars. As racial violence motivated by racial hate is an entirely black and brown crime today, enslavement of blacks was an entirely brown and black crime. Browns enslaved whites. Browns and blacks enslaved blacks. Whites enslaved whites, but they did not enslave browns and blacks.

On Fri, Aug 07, 2020 at 07:13:59PM -0300, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 07:38:02 +1000 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

...

On 2020-08-07 07:12, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

...

Sorry James, the topic was slaves in the US, not in africa,

The question is, who enslaved them?

and the answer is : jew-kristian white criminals like you, who else? Not only blacks were 'imported'(and enslaved) by white slave dealers, black slaves were also 'bred' in the US.

Why do you say Jews are "white"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_breeding_in_the_United_States

of course, slavery is explicitly acknowledged in your US cuntstitution

"The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person."

'importation' of persons done by white slave dealers. And after 'importation' was 'banned', breeding.

On 2020-08-08 08:13, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 07:38:02 +1000 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

...

On 2020-08-07 07:12, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

...

Sorry James, the topic was slaves in the US, not in africa,

The question is, who enslaved them?

and the answer is : jew-kristian white criminals like you,

Like Karl making up his own present day reality which is the complete reverse of easily observed reality https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCTI1Ot__ih1ngwrYaKAzTdsehW-gBZj2 You make up your own history. Blacks were the primary slavers, whites the primary, indeed only, emancipators.

James, I enjoy relating across culture bounds, but part of our JOBS here is PROTECTING people from misleading information, and I am tasked with doing this too. Please let people make their own decisions and if you are aware of sharing biased information, please inhibit this share. Really when the flurry is too large I'll be looking for ways to make the area look more open to dialogue that I can come up with when taxed and confused, and that may come down to trying to tax the people or groups expressing overly-biased information somehow. My "superiors" can change this behavior if there is reason to do so. K - There is proof inside many peoples' electronics. Proof that a marketing group would contract development of a frightening virus. A virus that responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what people see on their devices. A virus that alters political behavior en masse, for profit. On Fri, Aug 7, 2020, 8:56 PM <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote:

On 2020-08-08 08:13, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

...

On Sat, 8 Aug 2020 07:38:02 +1000 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

...

On 2020-08-07 07:12, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

...

Sorry James, the topic was slaves in the US, not in africa,

The question is, who enslaved them?

and the answer is : jew-kristian white criminals like you,

Like Karl making up his own present day reality which is the complete reverse of easily observed reality https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLCTI1Ot__ih1ngwrYaKAzTdsehW-gBZj2

You make up your own history.

Blacks were the primary slavers, whites the primary, indeed only, emancipators.

On 2020-08-06 04:06, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

On Wed, 5 Aug 2020 17:09:23 +1000 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

...

Where are the white racist equivalents?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States

Slaves in Africa were generally people seized by the local authorities for vagrancy and petty theft (the penalty for everything else being death) Some of them were populations engaged in stubborn but unsuccessful rebellion. If they had not been sold off, would probably have been eaten. They were vastly better off in America then, and their descendants are vastly better off than the descendants of those that remained behind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation_in_the_United_States

Segregation was good for whites and good for blacks. Look at the school cafeteria. Blacks don't want to hang out with whites, and whites don't want to hang out with blacks. Diversity plus proximity equals war. Segregation created a black middle class, that had real jobs and real families, because it needed black shops, black cops, black judges, and black lawyers. Before desegregation, black men had wives, and black universities turned out blacks with skills in something other than hating white. Desegregation has destroyed city after city, starting with Detroit, and it has destroyed black people, who are now fatherless and now live on crime and welfare. Whites fled Detroit because black people were beating up white people and burning down their homes. Without white people to keep everything running, Detroit collapsed. When blacks were no longer sent to the back of the bus, white people stopped using buses because they got beaten up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States

Blacks commit more crime, and the most severe inequalities in incarceration are in Democratic states with an indulgent attitude towards crime, especially black crime. The question is not what proportion of a race get imprisoned, but what proportion of criminals of a race get imprisoned, and it is absolutely obvious that blacks are more likely to get away with crimes, or not be punished even if caught, than whites. It is absolutely obvious that blacks can get away with crimes more than white people, due to less enforcement, a revolving door policy by judges, and a remarkably indulgent attitude to attacks by colored people on whites. And strange to report, the more indulgent the State Government towards crime, especially black crime, the more unequal the incarceration rate. If racism caused inequality in incarceration rates, why are the inequalities distributed the way they are. By and large, the more progressive the state government the worse the disparity. Try to imprison less people, you are apt to wind up with a larger proportion of blacks in prison relative to whites in prison. What happens is that if you simply imprison less and police less, this decreases white imprisonment considerably but does not much decrease black imprisonment because it increases crime, and increases black crime more than white crime. Imprisoning lots of people reduces crime, but it reduces black crime considerably more, reducing the disparity in imprisonment rates. Black crime seems to be more sensitive to policing and enforcement than white crime, perhaps because blacks get less policing and enforcement than whites, so increasing enforcement on whites yields decreasing returns. If you make an effort to rehabilitate prisoners, and get them out of jail without them promptly needing to be returned, this tends to have more success with white prisoners, and again your disparity increases. George Floyd being a good example of someone who just needed to be kept permanently out of circulation as a danger to himself and others. Letting him out of prison with a slap on the wrist did not work out well for anyone.

Here is a typical of example of black privilege and the systematic second class status of whites. https://www.bitchute.com/video/qPB8CFgDdVyy/

I'm not sure our emails are reaching the list. They don't seem to all be in the archive. Maybe we triggered a brief DoS? It sounds like you hold a lot of reasons to be very angry around race issues. Is it accurate that your people need fairness with regard to the story of white and black people being understood by the public? <snip>

I don't know where to go on uncensored channels to find the videos you describe. I consider uncensored social media to be scuttlebutt, mastodon, possibly steem ... What do you consider uncensored social media?

I ask because media censorship is a huge concern of mine and sometimes gets squarely in the way of accurate discourse. It can seem a very complex challenge. <snip>

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 9:35 PM <jamesd@echeque.com> wrote:

...

On 2020-08-03 21:37, Karl wrote:

...

James it sounds like we've been exposed to significantly different media, giving us different beliefs.

Just search uncensored social media. You will find huge numbers of videos of black gangs attacking whites.

<snip>

I've received some links from you to duckduckgo, alternative media, and archive.is . Are these what you mean when you say uncensored social media? K

On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 21:12:40 +1000 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

-BLM support from EVERY MAJOR CORPORATION ON THE PLANET

That's your beloved capitalist libertarian heros James. You wouldn't be complaining about the actions of the Capitalist Masters of the Universe would you?

On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 15:26:50 -0400 Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com> wrote:

It sounds to me like James is not considering these businesses to be heros.

Thing is, my message makes sense only if you know who James is. Take into account for instance James' message from last week or so about the arch-criminal elon musk. You can get some more info about James' political views here : https://jim.com/blog "Child protective services abducting children from Christian families and selling them to gays" "The silicon valley meritocracy exemption has collapsed, and now silicon valley is collapsing because of affirmative action" "The pope worshiping naked pagan idols." et cetera...

I'm pretty sure like libertarians are counter to top-down control,

that's correct. REAL libertarians opposed top-down control.

don't really know.

Punk, in your other email you mentioned receiving bitcoin (in a way I felt confused and pain for James when reading).

Not sure what you mean? I don't think there was anything confused in that message =). I'm also pretty sure that James is clever enough to appreciate every bit of sarcasm contained in that message.

So you know, I didn't receive a bitcoin address in that email. Did you know bitcoin is designed to resist all censorship?

Is it? I know that all bitcoin transactions are public, and I know that 'miners' get to decide which transactions are included in the chain. I also know that mining isn't too 'distributed' and that the supposed creator of bitcoin wasn't bothered by mining being done in the NSA datacenter. So it doesn't really look like "bitcoin is designed to resist all censorship". Rather, it looks like whatever 'censorship resistance' bitcoin now has is accidental and won't last.

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 1:25 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:

...

On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 21:12:40 +1000 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

...

-BLM support from EVERY MAJOR CORPORATION ON THE PLANET

That's your beloved capitalist libertarian heros James. You wouldn't be complaining about the actions of the Capitalist Masters of the Universe would you?

On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 17:50:28 -0400 Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com> wrote:

No tone cues for sarcasm on the internet.

So to sum up, James is an arch-right-winger trying to pose as some kind of 'libertarian'. He's the typical corporate apologist, pretending in typical randroid fashion that "big business are amerikkkas' most oppresed minority". But NOW he's complaining that his dear 'meritocratic' big businesses are siding with BLM. Which in turn tells you that BLM is just controlled opposition and which makes James' position even more ridiculous.

I know that all bitcoin transactions are public,

Right. That aids censorship resistance. You can put things on a blockchain that nobody can delete, change, or even hide.

Transactions being public doesn't aid censorship resistance. Rather, it's what makes censorship possible.

You could also use cryptography to make those things private, and mixing layers to increase your anonymity, but that's not what I mean to worry about here.

But that's the thing. The more public information there is, the easier it becomes for censors to decide which transactions to reject.

and I know that 'miners' get to decide which transactions are included in

...

the chain.

Partly true. _Any one_ miner can accept a transaction for it to get included in the chain,

yeah, so all miners would have to cooperate to censor a transaction. But such cooperation isn't far fetched. Also, if the majority of miners become censors, then the network would be censored most of the time. You would have to wait for your transaction to be mined by a 'good' miner, but that would take a lot longer.

...

I also know that mining isn't too 'distributed'

What's relevent is that it is still distributed enough to defend information in the face of a nation state adversary.

We'll see...

The 'distributed' reducing problem reflects a situation where the corporate and government spookies attacked the development and mining communities, halting the expected curve of software development as demand increased.

Unless you change the proof of work algorithm, bitcoin mining is going to be centralized because of economic forces. The underlying economic system is pretty centralized and controled by govcorp, so only big mining operations can be 'profitable'.

It is an incredibly hard fight for them because cryptocurrencies are incredibly lucrative and widely supported.

and that the supposed creator of bitcoin wasn't bothered by mining being

...

done in the NSA datacenter.

This would be because the protocol was designed to be robust in the face of arbitrary groups mining. The NSA has to play by the rules of the network, or they are kicked out and ignored automatically.

My comment was somewhat obscure. What I meant is that 'satoshi' wasn't worried about mining being centralized...and wasn't worried about 'scaling' either. Here's the pertinent bit https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/emails/cryptography/2/ "as the network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to specialists with server farms of specialized hardware" ...you know, like amazon-NSA.

1. Bitcoin is hugely valuable and is designed to rise in value exponentially 2. The design is such that censoring it e.g. by miner collusion also lets people steal money 3. There are more creative thieves than creative censors 4. When the protocol is attacked, it becomes obvious on the network: the whole network is told

the protocol doesn't allow double spending, but it certainly allows 'discrimination'.

5. So, people are increasingly financially motivated to protect the essentials of the protocol, and many fixes have gone in over the years. If fixes ever stop completely, somebody loses a lot of money and takes action on it.

You need to run a "full node" to participate in the censorship-free network. And due to the harm to the communities the situation does slowly get a little more confusing and a little more delicate.

even if you run a full node and have direct access to the 'true' chain, miners still decide what gets in the blocks. Look at ethereum. The chain was 'forked' and the majority of people went to the chain that had some 'bad' transactions reverted. Same thing could happen to bitcoin.

It is still impossible enough to erase things on the Bitcoin blockchain, for now,

True, for now. On the other hand, look at all the cancer that grows around bitcoin like coinbase-mosad-GCHQ-NSA. Bitcoin 'exchanges' are worse than banks.

that if you could afford it you could broadcast a video of all the world leaders having a naked orgy and it would never go away.

...

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 1:25 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:

...

...

On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 21:12:40 +1000 jamesd@echeque.com wrote:

...

-BLM support from EVERY MAJOR CORPORATION ON THE PLANET

That's your beloved capitalist libertarian heros James. You wouldn't be complaining about the actions of the Capitalist Masters of

the

...

...

Universe would you?

K

-

There is proof inside many peoples' electronics. Proof that a marketing group would contract development of a frightening virus. A virus that responds to peoples' keystrokes and browsing habits, and changes what people see on their devices. A virus that alters political behavior en masse, for profit.

On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 15:41:34 -0400 Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com> wrote:

Punk, do you know how often the cypherpunks archive is updated? 

usually in real time, or a few minutes.

I seem to be disconnected from the list; didn't get the last archived email yet, and recent posts aren't showing up.

sometimes the confirmation messages get lost, but your messages are posted to the list anyway.

...

But NOW he's complaining that his dear 'meritocratic' big businesses are siding with BLM. Which in turn tells you that BLM is just controlled opposition and which makes James' position even more ridiculous.

The businesses are siding with BLM due to the effort of thousands of american activists pressuring people to notice what's up in the flag of violence against blacks, if it matters.  It seems something else may have mysteriously helped, too.

The position you describe is in line with Trump, who lumps the mainstream with the left. 

Not sure what position you're referring to. You mean my observation that US govcorp is pretending to be 'anti racist'?

It was a very minority view until he was elected; mostly held by rural demographics near major business enterprises in the areas I'd visited.

...

...

You could also use cryptography to make those things private, and mixing layers to increase your anonymity, but that's not what I mean to worry about here.

        But that's the thing. The more public information there is, the easier it becomes for censors to decide which transactions to reject.

Not with full nodes: the network is invalid if any information at all is missing.  But yes, you need a miner to accept it, and you could be identified, posting it

the bare minimum is something like monero where amounts, senders and recipients are hidden(at least in theory). A system like monero leaks less information than bitcoin so it makes it harder for miners to censor.

There's a way to push miner acceptance: you can make future transactions require old ones.  Like, you can post a special message, and then buy or sell a product in a way that the purchase only goes through if the "special message" is also mined.  Once that money is spent for something else, it is required that _all_ preceding transactions go through, for the entire lifetime of the blockchain. Censorship is actually incredibly hard if the protocol is used properly.

is that something that works with BTC? do you have a reference?

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I also know that mining isn't too 'distributed'

What's relevent is that it is still distributed enough to defend information in the face of a nation state adversary.

        We'll see...

This has already been shown to my satisfaction repeatedly. What would demonstrate it to you?

I mean, we'll see how well cryptocurrencies fare when attacked by govcorp. So far they have been tolerated or even encouraged.

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bitcoin mining is going to be centralized because of economic forces. The underlying economic system is pretty centralized and controled by govcorp, so only big mining operations can be 'profitable'.

This is another thing the devs seemed to realize too late that would be changed if there were focused, productive harmony in their community.  They made Jim's error of believing money was held by the people, not the leaders, and better capitalism would provide freedom.

Some developers may have made a mistake, while others are actually happy with the current situation...

Instead they produced a mess of cryptoanarchic millionaires which is still quite helpful.

well, I don't think they are too helpful. Even roger ver who has somewhat clear ideas is more ultimately more concerned about all his money than freedom .

Blockchains still show a single programmer can change the whole world, by stepping into the digital cultural spaces that people leave unaddressed, and automating them.

we'll see. Also automation isn't good per se.

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        My comment was somewhat obscure. What I meant is that 'satoshi' wasn't worried about mining being centralized...and wasn't worried about 'scaling' either. Here's the pertinent bit

        https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/emails/cryptography/2/

        "as the network grows beyond a certain point, it would be left more and more to specialists with server farms of specialized hardware"

        ...you know, like amazon-NSA.

Nice pairing of names.  This is just because Satoshi was making the Jim fallacy I mentioned above.

Question is, was that a honest mistake, or part of the 'design'?

It takes a very long time for bitcoins to merge with amazon-nsa.  They don't like them: the dollar seems more predictable and familiar, and the dollar makes it much easier for them to keep secrets.

The fact that bitcoin's supply can't be manipulated makes it unappealing to govcorp. However, other bitcoin features aren't as governmnt unfriendly as that one. Bitcoin as a surveillance tool with unerasable records is something that govcorp likes.

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1. Bitcoin is hugely valuable and is designed to rise in value exponentially 2. The design is such that censoring it e.g. by miner collusion also lets people steal money 3. There are more creative thieves than creative censors 4. When the protocol is attacked, it becomes obvious on the network: the whole network is told

        the protocol doesn't allow double spending, but it certainly allows 'discrimination'.

I don't know what you mean here. Economic discrimination and miner collusion?

yes, miners can even mine empty blocks if they want and sitll be paid for it(block reward).

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        Look at ethereum. The chain was 'forked' and the majority of people went to the chain that had some 'bad' transactions reverted. Same thing could happen to bitcoin.

This required agreement from the entire dev team and is exactly how blockchains die.  Note that ethereum is big enough that the original chain is still easy to acquire in its entirety.  Bitcoin is much bigger.

yeah the original chain is likely to survive. My point is that it may be possible for govcorp to take an existing system and force a mahority of people to accept 'new rules'.

Disruptive forking has already happened to bitcoin with bch, bsv, etc. It doesn't mean any information is lost, though: each one of those chains has the entire history prior to the fork. 

True. But those forks were not really attacks but rather competition.

All the people who trusted the blockchain to preserve something, in bitcoin and ethereum prior to their unexpected forks, have that trust still honored, without any regard to the content: except for the one person whose permanent impact was hacking the ethereum community itself.

True.

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It is still impossible enough to erase things on the Bitcoin blockchain, for now,

        True, for now. On the other hand, look at all the cancer that grows around bitcoin like coinbase-mosad-GCHQ-NSA. Bitcoin 'exchanges' are worse than banks.

Economic war is happening. But bitcoin still has friendly communities who will trade with you in person for cash. Most of the exchanges appear run by millionaire cryptoanarchists, learning business and the intense difficulties the situation entails.

I don't think any big exchange is run by anarchists. On the othre hand, something like coinbase is run by literal US govt agents.

I realized re: disreputed bipartisan and public figures: As far as I know, nobody is organizing protection of targeted people. Spies among the disruption workers are saying it is time to do that, or there will be a global dictatorship soon. Working with these disruption workers, and protecting their denial behavior, is one way to learn who is in danger and how to protect them. What might be needed is a corporation, government, nonprofit, or organized group with money that is strong enough to defend people who are not already in one, and strong enough to defend the group as a whole when it is targeted, and unpoison the ways in which it has picked up cultural targeting (e.g. review of impact of internal patterns and changing them). I don't have anyone to share the above information with, so it hasn't been heard yet. Anarchists are mostly influenced by handmade zines, the large impacts of obvious behaviors of other anarchist groups, and special agents trying to manipulate them. Educators make some kinds of anarchists but I'm skeptical the set has any size to it. Something similar to anarchy is obvious to most people, because of the harm that nobody fixes nor discusses in public view: then people try to act on that, and end up running into the anarchists who have already tried before. On Thu, Sep 10, 2020, 10:51 AM Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com> wrote:

Note, it is incredibly counterproductive to blame BLM on a single professor.

On Wed, Aug 5, 2020, 2:58 PM Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 <punks@tfwno.gf> wrote:

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observation that US govcorp is pretending to be 'anti racist'?

I have many reasons to disagree with Punk-Stasi regarding bitcoin, from a place of an experienced software hacker. But I spent a long time thinking about his question about antiracism pretensions.

What's meaningful here, is that a society is made of multiple groups. SO LONG AS YOU CAN SUSTAIN PRODUCTIVE DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE URGENT, THE HARMED, AND THE POWERFUL, YOU HAVE PEACE. It is the experienced rebels who know how to maintain stability: they had to for a very long time, to ever finally be heard.

Corporations in the US showed they can resist enough to support BLM publicly. The US showed it is still enough of a democracy for the citizens to push the corporations to do this when something got very large.

Influencers showed they can resist enough to get corporate buildings burned down widely, briefly. What do secret powerful people need to plan around?

People who can resist will need to work together. I'm not always available much, but the bsv blockchain's archival retention and access, and phrases like "corporate dictator spy mafia" are all I really was doing.

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On 2020-09-11 00:51, Karl wrote:

What's meaningful here, is that a society is made of multiple groups. SO LONG AS YOU CAN SUSTAIN PRODUCTIVE DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE URGENT, THE HARMED, AND THE POWERFUL, YOU HAVE PEACE.

I have perpetually attempted to engage the left in conversation, because I well know the horror that awaits. We have continually sought compromise and agreement. The left uniformly and universally refuse. If conversation is possible, let us have a conversation. We have had enough of lectures. I have many times listed our intolerable sufferings. No one listens. No one will notice that we have grievances. No matter what we say, all they hear is “I hates women and blacks and wants to rape children”

On 2020-08-04 06:53, Punk-BatSoup-Stasi 2.0 wrote:

Thing is, my message makes sense only if you know who James is. Take into account for instance James' message from last week or so about the arch-criminal elon musk. You can get some more info about James' political views here :

https://jim.com/blog

"Child protective services abducting children from Christian families and selling them to gays"

"The silicon valley meritocracy exemption has collapsed, and now silicon valley is collapsing because of affirmative action"

"The pope worshiping naked pagan idols."

et cetera...

Wrong link. The link you quoted was https://blog.jim.com/politics/state-of-the-left-singularity/

Zig, that was very naughty posing as me! It seems you might finally be getting some manners, so that's a good thing, I hope, but really! no more posing. You are _such_ a posèúr .... Zenaan On Mon, Aug 03, 2020 at 10:40:12AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

I should also add a big thank you Karl, for bringing me into awareness of something I need to improve. It is sometimes not easy to receive such insights (my usual human instinct is to respond reactively and defensively).

So, thanks.

Zig

The shame, oh the shame , I will wear brown paper bags over my sockety puppety churchy head for a month's penance. Sooorryyyyyyyy!! Sheesh, can't a sock puppet cause a little mischief occasionally these days¿?¡! Wat dis world comin to anyway... The SHAME already! Did I mention "shame"? I'm not even goiyng to sign off any more I feel so shameful … did I mention I feel sha..!$* '|!=<sQwArK><gUrGlE>... On Mon, Aug 03, 2020 at 11:16:44AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

Zig, that was very naughty posing as me!

It seems you might finally be getting some manners, so that's a good thing, I hope, but really! no more posing.

You are _such_ a posèúr ....

Behave already! Zenaan

On Mon, Aug 03, 2020 at 10:40:12AM +1000, "The Z.g" wrote:

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I should also add a big thank you Karl, for bringing me into awareness of something I need to improve. It is sometimes not easy to receive such insights (my usual human instinct is to respond reactively and defensively).

So, thanks.

Zig