On Mon, Aug 03, 2020 at 07:26:11AM -0400, Karl wrote:
> I'll respond to each thing you said with fewer words than you used, for
> clarity.
>
> On Mon, Aug 3, 2020, 12:09 AM Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Aug 02, 2020 at 11:13:37PM -0400, Karl wrote:
> > > You didn't respond to my one question to understand you other than
> > "no"!  =(
> > >
> > > On Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 10:32 PM Zenaan Harkness <zen@freedbms.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > > I'm aware of whites killing blacks for sport, in the present day.  I
> > > > don't
> > > > > have exposure to blacks killing whites, and honestly there are so
> > many of
> > > > > us and our way of life seems so harmful to me, it seems the lesser
> > issue
> > > > to
> > > > > me.
> >
> >
> > Karl, you said: "whites [are] killing blacks for sport"
> >
> > You then said: "[regarding] blacks killing whites ... there are so many of
> > us and our way of life seems so harmful ..., it seems the lesser issue to
> > me"
> >
> >
> > Karl, do you wish to rephrase these words you used?
> >
> > At the moment, I am hearing you sanctioning the killing of Whites, by
> > Blacks, because "there are so many of us" and also because, you say, "our
> > way of life seems so harmful".
> >
>
> I do not sanction any kind of killing.  I prioritize whose life to save.


Karl, you say, and I'll quote only one last time: "blacks killing whites ... seems the lesser issue to me", and you say this immediately after alleging "whites killing blacks for sport", and so with these words, and with this juxtaposition that you put to us, you dismiss the killing of whites, by blacks, as "the lesser issue to [you]".

You then give two justifications for the killing of whites by blacks (in comparison to the purported by you, killing of blacks by whites) when you say both a) "honestly there are so many of us" and b) "our way of life seems so harmful to me".

>From these words there is no statement from you that you wish to preserve the lives of whites, only to blame them for "killing blacks for sport" which you allege to be true in "recent times", and in fact, you dismiss (in these words you use) the preservation of the lives of whites, repeatedly, with your stated justifications and with your statement further below that "Death happens: the question is whether we hold it as a goal".

So according to you Karl, when it comes to whites killing blacks it happens as you allege "for sport" and you seem to imply that we must stop this "to preserve blacks" and according to you we must "fight to preserve .. their [blacks] numbers", but when it comes to blacks killing whites, you justify your failure to defend the right of whites to live (to "preserve their numbers") because you say "honestly there are so many of us" and further you add that 'our way of life is "so harmful"', and you say these things without any suggestion that the numbers ought be irrelevant (in fact you raised the very issue that the numbers of "white lives" is in fact a ground on which you dismiss the preservation of white lives).

Karl, based on this exchange so far, you are using words, and defending positions which you are putting to us, which are abhorrent to any Soul who values all others, all lives irrespective of skin color, and these positions when held sufficiently, lead directly to great despotism upon people.

Further, you appear either intentionally or unintentionally oblivious to the plain implications which normal people infer and take from your apparently quite carefully chosen words (and if you did not personally choose your words, but merely parrot what others have said to you, then you are not a thinking person of these words, and in that case you are speaking carelessly, but still very dangerously).

Further, you repeatedly deny the existence of evil, and below say that you "do not believe in evil", and that you "do not believe anything opposes the life of another" (again, these are your exact words) and you say further that bullets used to murder another are not an example of evil, but instead show us only that bullets and murderers are according to you "[only] isolated parts of the system that relate to producing the death, coming out in placing human blame on a metal bullet without context" - and you say this is without context, even though the context was named (murder) and even though in fact it was you who raised this very context (the purported killing of blacks for "sport") and you conclude all this by saying that "behaviour we hate can exist in systems we love" (as though those words explain your position and as though "hate" has nothing to do with evil, since evil according to you does not exist, and whites who you purport 'murder blacks for sport' are not evil but are merely people who according to you "just believe different things are good than we do").


Karl I take an opposite position on evil to you, I stand for righteousness, and I stand against evil, I choose to stand in the face of those who engage in evil, in particular murder and genocide of any sub group in our community, and I seek that such people be held to full account for such evil deeds.

I have a conscience, and by my conscience I know good from evil, and I stand for good, and I stand opposed to evil!



Karl, to me you appear very mixed up, unable to acknowledge simple evil acts which you yourself put to us, and you appear mixed up to the point of being a real danger, a cog in a machine which has a hidden intention to bring a great evil upon us all.

To the extent that you are highlighting this brainwashing to us, you are useful to us.

To the extent that you brainwash others with the same program which you are evidently enmeshed within, and to the extent that you support this evil program within others who are already brainwashed (by your words both denying and justifying evil), then you are acting in a way both contrary to your own interests, but critically, as a menace to us all.

By holding so strongly to your contradictions of the basic question of good versus evil, Karl you demonstrate that you are quite possibly a great danger, a source of evil propaganda which has a "denied agenda", possibly not visible even to your own self, and a source of a quite sophisticated justification for evil acts done by others.




Karl, I suggest you pray for redemption, and pray that your eyes and your conscience be opened so that you might see that which is hidden to you and is inside the words you are using, and pray that you see such things so that you might stop spreading such damaging words, and so that you might therefore not damage others with your confusion.

If you find it difficult to pray, then find Christians who pray, and ask them to pray for you.




---------------------------------




> Death happens: the question is whether we hold it as a goal.
>
> It was clear in what I said that I was not sanctioning killing.
>
> It sounds like you are shocked or angered hearing my views of whites as
> having a harmful way of life, and being less important to fight to preserve
> due to their numbers?  Please answer this question, I am still a beginner
> in learning to hear and understand others and need some guidance I
> understand.
>
> And again Karl, when I read these words you used, I hear you sanctioning,
> > that is justifying and almost explicitly supporting "blacks killing whites"
> > for those two reasons that you cited.
>
>
> >
> > Again I ask you Karl, do you wish to retract what you appear to be saying?
> >
>
> Your words, not mine.  I murder children already myself, learning to stop
> with this kind BLM movement as inspiration.  Saw a lot of black people die.
>
> Or, do you wish to re-word what you are saying so that it is clearer,
> > reflecting more accurately in some way, what you're (trying to) say?
>
>
> >
> > The rest of the conversation below, whether you meant it to or not, flows
> > from this beginning of this conversation, and so until we get clarity and
> > reach an accord or understanding of one another here at the beginning, then
> > the rest will likely be, at best, talking at "crossed purposes to one
> > another" as they say...
> >
>
> This is because we have emotions, I suppose.
>
> >
> > (PS, you complain at the top there, of me providing "insufficient" answer
> > to one of your many unclear sentences which was at the very bottom of your
> > email, yet we appear stuck at the beginning, where you have either
> > overlooked, or perhaps not understood what I was asking you in some detail
> > and clarity (see immediately below)...)
> >
>
> You imply blame on me for you sticking at the beginning here.  Maybe you
> picked up my frustration at responding to so many following things that
> charge the emotions from a place I don't understand.
>
> What's relevent is that asking the question comes before stating
> differences.  Reduces disconnection.
>
> > > Your almost explicit sanctioning (in the words you chose to use) of the
> > > > "culling of one subgroup of our community" is abhorrent, no matter the
> > skin
> > > > colour of the sub group you target in this way.
> > > >
> > > > And your stated excuse that "our way of life seems harmful to me" can
> > > > never ever be a sufficient excuse for the culling of ANY sub group of
> > ANY
> > > > colour.
> > > >
> > > > Sanction the culling of one sub group (as these words just did) and you
> > > > sanction the culling of any and every sub group, i.e. everybody, which
> > is
> > > > despotism, and makes you look like a despot when you say such things.
> >
> >
> >
> > > You are saying that all groups (all people) are precious, right?  I agree
> > > with this strongly.  And what do you think of long term trends of change?
> >
>
> To reiterate, I believe all groups (all people) are precious, quoted
> above.  This clarifies my starting statement.
>
> >
> > > This is one of the problems in the "Black" Lives Matter movement - people
> > > > get lulled into literal extermination agendas, thinking they are
> > signalling
> > > > great virtue by doing so.
> > > >
> > >
> > > This makes no sense to me.
> >
> > I have asked you again - see above.
> >
>
> We don't want to exterminate people. <== Please reread my sentence and
> understand it.  "We" here refers to you, and me.
>
> This is a connecting point between us and opens an avenue to discuss how to
> work together.
>
> > When we sanction the murder of a sub group, we sanction the destruction of
> > > > the lives of our fellow Souls, and this is a despotic position, an evil
> > > > position that you appear to take (evil is that which opposes my life,
> > for
> > > > any individual value of "my").
> > > >
> > >
> > > By finding a shared concept between us, you are mediating.
> > >
> > > I do not believe in evil.  I do not believe anything opposes the life of
> > > another.
> >
> > Bullets, when accurately shot, directly oppose the life of a human.
> >
> > Are you saying this is not true?
> >
>
> Yes; you're focusing only on the isolated parts of the system that relate
> to producing the death, coming out in placing human blame on a metal bullet
> without context.
>
> > Engaging another life at all indicates value for its spirit in
> > > some way.
> >
> > You said evil does not exist.
> >
> > You earlier said that you are personally aware of Whites shooting Blacks
> > for sport.
> >
> > And, now you say that evil does not exist.
> >
>
> I'm used to holding both of these.  It means behavior we hate can exist in
> systems we love.  With some contemplation you can see they don't contradict.
>
> The fact that you say both that you are personally aware of Whites shooting
> > Blacks for sport, and that evil does not exist, is very strange.
> >
> > As puported by you, those "Whites shooting Blacks for sport", would seem
> > on any view of your assertion (presented to us with zero facts in support)
> > to be a plain and simple example of some people opposing the lives of
> > others (with such intent that they would murder them "for sport").
> >
> > Why do you say that your own assertion (as fact-free as it is at this
> > point in time to me) that you know of "Whites killing Blacks for sport", is
> > NOT an example of evil?
> >
>
> What is evil to you?  To me it seems made up to cause war.  People who harm
> just believe different things are good than we do.  Productive
> communication both parties value and hear resolves that.
>
> > We must live a higher ethic collectively, and Karl, I encourage you to do
> > > > so.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Thanks.  Let's archive this list on a blockchain.
> >
> > I think there is not a lot of benefit to doing so, and many more important
> > jobs we could do anyway.
> >
>
> It is great to start working with you.  What do you know to be important?
> I make a lot of decisions based on fear of cover-up/cleanup.  I see
> preservation as saving lives and aiding in making good decisions later.
>
> > > Before we came to the USA where I lived, it was covered in free black
> > > > > people.
> > > >
> > > > This makes no sense to me.  I cannot understand what you are saying, by
> > > > reading the words you wrote.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Sorry, I wrote "lived" instead of "live".  Does that clear it up?  Before
> >
> > No.
> >
>
> Hrm .. is this related to China?
>
>
> > > white people came to the western continent I live on, it was covered in
> > > indigenous folk who had well established ways of life that mostly need
> >
> > So "indigenous folk of North America" are black, or I guess you just
> > referred to them as black?
>
>
> > There are very real and different racial issues in the USA, and I don't
> > think conflating them is very useful.
> >
>
> Seems to be to me.  African and Native people both had their aboriginal
> cultures and histories destroyed by the urges of white people; the
> similarity is helpful in making decisions to protect the world.  There.is
> something about us we need.to reign in, or people die en masse.
>
> > large tracts of healthy wilderness in order to not die off.
> >
> > So, some "bad shit" has happened in the past.
> >
> > I agree with you.
> >
> > There are many examples, for example the current Australian Aborigines are
> > actually from India, and only some 4000 years on this continent, before
> > which there were an exclusively Polynesian population who were almost
> > completely massacred into non-existence by the migrating Indians.  There
> > were also the smalls who lived in the Blue Mountains area West of Sydney,
> > New South Wales, and they were also massacred into non existence by the
> > present day "Aborigines" from sub continental India.
> >
> > Yes, some bad shit has happened and inside of humans is the capacity for
> > great evil.
>
>
> Here I can more agree with the word "evil" - behaviors, not people.
>
> Roughly, all people need to be able to live their lives.  We are asking for
> ways to come together to make things right.
>
> We're arguing a lot as we learn to listen before ourselves expressing.
>
> --------- end of responses
> >
> >
> >
> > > > We have yet to give their few remaining cultures and grandchildren
> > > > > recompense for their genocide for us to replace their culture with
> > ours.
> > > >
> > > > Again, this is, unfortunately, very unclear, and appears to assume
> > > > collectivist guilt (a fundamentally Marxist propaganda) and other
> > > > communication problems.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Tell me about collectivist guilt; never heard of it.  Is Marxism relevent
> > > and inherently bad?  I don't know its details.
> > >
> > > My main point is not culling these numerous groups.
> > >
> > > Indigenous groups appear to struggle to survive.  Their treaties are not
> > > respected.  Their land is craftily taken for profit like mining
> > > operations.  Their people are indoctrinated to buy and consume things as
> > a
> > > new way of life.  These things are a small subset of how we are culling
> > > them.
> > >
> > > If you wish to help heal the world, I suggest learning to speak (write)
> > > > more clearly, for example, by limiting each sentence to a single
> > concept.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I'm not sure what's new to you, but I've edited some sentences to
> > separate
> > > things out.
> > >
> > > (It is a bully tactic to combine multiple unclear and unsupported
> > concepts
> > > > into one mashed up sentence, and for those unaware, presents too great
> > a
> > > > barrier to defend themselves, or to defend sanity, against such
> > bullying.)
> > > >
> > >
> > > This is a bad habit I have.  I used to call it oppression and avoid it, I
> > > don't remember what kind.
> > >
> > > It seems a little helpful to bully back when there's too much, confusing.
> > >
> > >
> > > ====Cool sentence below====
> > >
> > > > Please stop using such bullying techniques.
> > > >
> > > ====Rad sentence above====
> > >
> > > <could use help stopping, save world with excess?>
> > >
> > > > We then went to Africa and did the same.  We have had 1 male black
> > > > > president; my black roommate in college said his high school advisor
> > told
> > > > > him he would never be able to go to college.  Mine gave me many to
> > choose
> > > > > from.
> > > >
> > > > Again a mish mash of concepts and partial "non" facts - I realise you
> > may
> > > > be trying to speak from facts, but your facts are not my facts except
> > that
> > > > you slow down, presenting them in a way that others can hear, and
> > actually
> > > > discuss with you.
> > > >
> > > > If you don't want discussion, then again this would be your choice to
> > use
> > > > such bullying tactics.
> > >
> > >
> > > Did you say what you mean here?  It's not helpful to slow down?  What
> > kind
> > > of facts do you have?
> > >
> > > > I have been a cyberslave myself, and know some terror of running until
> > > > your
> > > > > shoes break and your feet get frostbite, to escape from an
> > environment
> > > > > where everybody you can reach supports you not being free.  There are
> > > > still
> > > > > people who believe blacks to be slaves, and they act on their
> > beliefs in
> > > > > terrifying ways.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are fewer black people than white people.  We need to protect
> > them
> > > > or
> > > > > they will die off.
> > > >
> > > > Again you make assertions without support of facts.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Are you asking for supporting evidence to believe what I say?  If so it's
> > > not hard to find and I may be able to add a little if you really don't
> > > believe these things; but I am on a $20 mobile phone.
> > >
> > > That is a diatribe, not a conversation.
> > > >
> > > > You may or may not want conversation - that is a matter for you.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I feel this way about your end too.
> > >
> > > You might want to ground your words in truth rather than in propaganda.
> > > > Without truth, how do you know whose agenda you are pushing, perhaps
> > even
> > > > thinking it is your own agenda?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I don't know what you are talking about here, and I'm irritated to have
> > to
> > > say that.  Agendas are in all of our culture.  Truth is reality which I
> > > stated.  Personal reasons are also very important for me, and it would be
> > > good if we could give each other the trust of relating our experienced
> > with
> > > relevent honesty.  Are you asking for evidence?  Of something in
> > particular?
> > >
> > > (For one example, why are you proposing to massively increase the
> > > > population in China of blacks, just to achieve some misguided idea of
> > > > "equality in China" - do you thing the Chinese would agree with you
> > that
> > > > they should massively increase theil Black population so you can
> > "appease
> > > > your White guilt"??)
> > > >
> > >
> > > It seems.obvious to me that what you are saying here makes no sense.
> > China
> > > was the tiananmen thing some time ago?
> > >
> > > Mediation comes from my heart.  I've never been to China.
> > >
> > > > People talking about white racism seem to be describing minority
> > rights as
> > > > > unfair ... That it hurts white people to defend black people?
> > > >
> > > > No.
> > > >
> > >
> > > It is so hard to learn from such a short answer.  It sounds like you
> > > believe white people are being wiped out by black people?
> > >
> > > (I'm imagining a graph of population here, but I don't want to argue with
> > > you when I need to learn where you come from to stop threatening your
> > > views.)
> > >
> > > Karl, good communication is not easy, it takes real effort and practice
> > and
> > > > writing, and reviewing your own words and rewriting as necessary.
> > > >
> > >
> > > This is so painful and reminds me of my childhood of bullying!  You talk
> > > about China like it is relevent!
> > >
> > > What you mean to say is that both of us are rapidly learning to become
> > > incredibly good communicators ;P
> > >
> > > But thank you I do need the pressure.  Hard next to politics.
> > >
> > > If you make efforts, some will assist. If you stick to cheap bullying and
> > > > other tactics, little space is left for meaningful communication.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Spirit never dies.  Meaningful communication is the only thing that
> > exists.
> >
>
> - phone signature goes here
>
> >