Re: forged cancels (Re: Entrust Technologies's Solo - free download)
wireinfo <wireinfo@phoenix.net> writes:
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On Thu, 31 Jul 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
Nno one is arugeing that. Both sides in this debait aggry that that is REAL BAD thing. Spam cancelers use an objective rules.
[...]
You're not very bright are you David?
In my humble opinion David is pretty bright. Unfortunately he's misguided about certain things. I think the extreme aversion to censorship (like that displayed by imp and myself) seldom arises in people who haven't themselves been victims of censorship (plug-pulling or forged cancels, not 'censored thro being drowned up by the dissenting opinions" "-)
Let me clarify two things:
1. "Spam cancellers" are not generally news admins.
I think you will have to justerfy this, the top spam cancellers are all news adimns.
Aer nto.
The current top "spam canceller", Rich Bland ("cosmo") is an admin of a tiny little BBS in California - probably fewer users than mine. The previous top "spam canceller" - Rick Buchanan - was just a user, whose actions were condonded by the admins of the several systems he used to forge cancels. (He only had his plug pulled by one ISp I know of.) Most of the people who scream about their "hatred of spam" on news.* are not admins, but fairly recent users who figure that "fighting spam" is a cool thing. Thing is hardly relevant - anyone can easily set up their own site and become its admins. I was just pointing out that it's factually incorrect to use "admins" as a synonym for "anti-spammers". Many admins are pro-free speech.
2. Once a cancel-forger builds a "reputation" as a "spam canceller", s/he often diversifies into "retromodetration"
There is little proof that this is the case. Even the netscum case could have been considered spam.
What the fuck is "the netscum case"?
I think David is referring to the recent case of content-based cancels forged by Chris Lewis for severa articles whose only thing in common was the mention of Chris lewis's Net.Scum page. This is just one of dozens of such examples. Chris Lewis and Dave Barr obth forge cancels for usenet articles that follow up on their articles and quote them, claiming "copyright violations". Interestingly, Dave Barr is one of the moderators of news.admin.net-abuse.announce. When that newsgroup was up for a vote, its charter said (don't know why) that its moderators aren't supposed to issue third party cancels. So much for moderated newsgrou charters. :-)
[...]
Not even forgeries in my name? Not even out of the control spews from fidonet?
Correct.
Ok so if a mailing list gateway @bwalk.dm.com pumps thousands of broken posts into usenet you don't wish them to be removed from usenet?
The motherfucker can remove them himself, send him a note. But after they've already hit our servers and we've already read them it doesn't make much of a difference now does it? We've got to receive repeated blasts of forged cancels ten times the number of the offending posts?
Once the offending articles are part of the spool on toher site, it's pointless for me to issue cancels. Note that both have happened: both I and my wife have been forged numerous times on usenet, and there have been spews from this site. I don't think that trying to remove them from spool is a proper thing to do whether or not my site ogirinated them. I do think it's polite to try to let people know that these articles are forged/obsolete/posted in error and should be ignored. That was the original purpose of the cancel control articles in RFC 1036 - I post a "car for sale" ad, I sell the car, I don't want to get any more replies, I cancel it. Problem is, the cancels in RFC 1036 were unauthenticated - relied on honor, and too many people on Usenet have no honor are aere eager to forge other people's e-mail addresses on their cancels. As I discussed with David in private mail, a "retraction server" that would announce forgeries, spews, etc would be a useful thing.
You're really not very bright are you David?
Just misguided.
Nor if I post a message with your name and email, saying "Chris Lewis the best thing that happened to usenet and I wish to have his baby."
A simple "I didn't write that" shall suffice.
I recall how a couple of years ago Peter Vorobiev forged a bunch of articles in my name all over Usenet, and I posted an announcement to that effect on news.admin.net-abuse.misc, and got some very obnoxious e-mail from Tim Skirvin saying it's off-topic. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
wireinfo <wireinfo@phoenix.net> writes:
[...]
You're not very bright are you David?
In my humble opinion David is pretty bright. Unfortunately he's misguided about certain things.
Thankyou, I feel almost the same thing about you :D
I think the extreme aversion to censorship (like that displayed by imp and myself) seldom arises in people who haven't themselves been victims of censorship
Dose threats from a multynatnatil corpration count? Dose living in Austrlia count?
The current top "spam canceller", Rich Bland ("cosmo")
Jem seems to have gotten to the top of the list now. [...]
Most of the people who scream about their "hatred of spam" on news.* are not admins, but fairly recent users who figure that "fighting spam" is a cool thing.
Meany of the "I'm pissed off with spam" peaple lack knowlige of the conciquencers both social and technical of what thay are suggesting. In fact there are membours of the anty-cancelers that I trust more then them. That being said thouse that are in the center, are more resonable and are worryed about there activeriese have my support. [...]
I was just pointing out that it's factually incorrect to use "admins" as a synonym for "anti-spammers".
No sane person would suggest that (i.e. lots of peaple on usenet would make that suggestion) because if it was true then we wouldn't have the problems with agis or uunet.
Many admins are pro-free speech.
I woundn't have it any other way. [...]
Chris Lewis and Dave Barr obth forge cancels for usenet articles that follow up on their articles and quote them, claiming "copyright violations".
This is interesting, proof please. [...]
Once the offending articles are part of the spool on toher site, it's pointless for me to issue cancels.
Not even to free up diskspace?
Note that both have happened:
I know. - -- Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. ex-net.scum and proud You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For Themselves? --Terry Pratchett -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM+bVx6QK0ynCmdStAQG82gP+LuH2yOt+02VJDrNk0ZHo9Jxm3WoYbs6g HcUNCWAlvUFn8PhGqCqdYGaxYrjVDQX4EwIzgvhvpmZ3KOuIQjTl4vWlThoLZ6Yr HrpdGRwrdOzYI/Xd5JV4OPybRwqesEVwHiL2QbGu08g1enkwbwuEnkDXRQPbX+7e cpYEAGEUL6o= =R4gE -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
I think the extreme aversion to censorship (like that displayed by imp and myself) seldom arises in people who haven't themselves been victims of censorship
Dose threats from a multynatnatil corpration count? Dose living in Austrlia count?
Evidently these haven't made you into a staunch opponent of censorship. Perhaps if they did succeed in pulling your plug, you'd feel differently.
The current top "spam canceller", Rich Bland ("cosmo")
Jem seems to have gotten to the top of the list now.
I haven't been tracking the forgers lately. For those who don't know John E. Milburn: he's an expatriate U.S. engineer who used to work in South Korea and forge cancels from there in a variety of newsgroups (like alt.religion.monica). I caught him forging a cancel for one of my articles (for "homophobia" and "excessive cross-posting"). Milburn lost his job in Korea last year (possibly because of the complaints about his net-abuse) and announced his "retirement" from forging cancels. I'm sorry to see this bastard back.
I was just pointing out that it's factually incorrect to use "admins" as a synonym for "anti-spammers".
No sane person would suggest that (i.e. lots of peaple on usenet would make that suggestion) because if it was true then we wouldn't have the problems with agis or uunet.
Tim Skirvin presents these "newbies" with a false view of Usenet as a unified front of news admins who have all reached consensus that free speech is evil and are now fighting the evil spammers.
Chris Lewis and Dave Barr obth forge cancels for usenet articles that follow up on their articles and quot them, claiming "copyright violations".
This is interesting, proof please.
Check out Chris Lewis's Net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/lewisc0.html. Find "Edward Gerk" - one of the people who quoted Chris Lewis and whose articles Chris Lewis canceled for "copyright violations". Next check out Barr's Net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/barrd0.html. Find "Alain Larouche" - same thing.
Once the offending articles are part of the spool on toher site, it's pointless for me to issue cancels.
Not even to free up diskspace?
Correct. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
Dose threats from a multynatnatil corpration count? Dose living in Austrlia count?
Evidently these haven't made you into a staunch opponent of censorship.
Just because I do not copy your more rabid tacktics dose not mean that I am anyless an opponent of censorship. I fight it in my own way, as well all must do. [...]
Tim Skirvin presents these "newbies" with a false view of Usenet as a unified front of news admins who have all reached consensus that free speech is evil and are now fighting the evil spammers.
There is a strong aggreyment amounst most admins for the policy of spam canceling if there wasn't all hell would have broken out sooner.
This is interesting, proof please.
Check out Chris Lewis's Net.Scum page at http://www.netscum.net/lewisc0.html. Find "Edward Gerk" - one of the people who quoted Chris Lewis and whose articles Chris Lewis canceled for "copyright violations".
I check it out, there is a slight diffrence you can see from the staments that he had maid that it was in addtion to him being in excess of BI. - -- Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep. ex-net.scum and proud You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For Themselves? --Terry Pratchett -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBM+rpmqQK0ynCmdStAQFv2QQAq+b+fGg3AeS28LtL8CzZhSCSzk6Izf/O mXZQRLMTioeVYHk57XpqxQ32iYGmxQkADeZOTIyDm8YumCjA7q7b29cBsPcKPBJL 2mhZ8GqQOXPl0vJPBVyPhDdA6NlKhyH8TwKy1gE9Ky7ZnJHzSFqhND+Z+lan3QOt F/Vnv5l0qwE= =vY6O -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
participants (2)
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? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} -
dlv＠bwalk.dm.com