Munitions shirt (again)
So, Dave and I got free munitions shirts (they're different, though; the font is smaller and they have a bunch of X'd out Constitutional Amendments on the back; I think they ere designed by Joel Furr) for our bug find. So I'm wearing it today. The thing is, I live in International House, a residence that has 50% non-Americans. So, any consensus as to whether it's actually illegal to do so? I remember some disagreement a few weeks ago that AFAIK wasn't resolved. As far as I can tell, it's _technically_ illegal, but any LEO would be out of his mind to try to enforce it (it would have to be a Fed, too, wouldn't it? Or can regular city cops get you for violating export restrictions?). - Ian
On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Ian Goldberg wrote:
So, Dave and I got free munitions shirts (they're different, though; the font is smaller and they have a bunch of X'd out Constitutional Amendments on the back; I think they ere designed by Joel Furr) for our bug find.
Good.
So I'm wearing it today. The thing is, I live in International House, a residence that has 50% non-Americans.
So, any consensus as to whether it's actually illegal to do so? I remember some disagreement a few weeks ago that AFAIK wasn't resolved.
As far as I can tell, it's _technically_ illegal, but any LEO would be out of his mind to try to enforce it (it would have to be a Fed, too, wouldn't it? Or can regular city cops get you for violating export restrictions?).
- Ian
Funny, this thread sounds awfully familiar. In fact, I think I wrote almost this _exact same post_ about 3 weeks ago, just substituting "Berkeley" for "Towson State University". I mentioned the fact that I live in the International House of _my_ campus, and we discussed the legality of my wearing it. We hashed over it for a few days, and never really came to a real answer, since ITAR is rather vague in that area. I might add, however, that two days ago I wore my RSA shirt to my sound design class, where the guy I happened to sit down next to recognized it, was familiar with what it stood for, and knew all about the Zimmerman case; not because he was a crypto enthusiast or a comp sci major, but because he works for customs at Baltimore-Washington International Airport. This event really changed my point of view considering ITAR... I figured that it was just one of those dumb laws that _nobody_ really paid much attention to except for the FBI and that was only because they were looking for a way to nail Zimmerman for writing good crypto. I had assumed that ITAR was something that customs agents/L. E. O's/etc. learned about, took a test on it, then forgot about it the next day. Interesting... they _really_ are serious, aren't they? -=me=- kelli@zeus.towson.edu Geek Code v3.0 http://zeus.towson.edu/~kelli/ GAT dx s++:- a-- C++ uu+++ P+ L++ E- W++ N K W--- O- M- V-- PS+++ PE- Y++(-) PGP+>++ t+ 5 x+ R tv b+++ DI- D--- G e h* r+ z** Diverse Sexual Orientation Coll.Towson State University DSOC@zeus.towson.edu "All the world will be your enemy, Prince With The Thousand Enemies. . . And whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first, they must catch you. . ." -Richard Adams
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:26:08 -0400 (EDT) From: "K. M. Ellis" <kelli@zeus.towson.edu>
[re. wearing an RSA T-shirt in the presence of furreners] The CRYPTO conference sounds like a better alleged violation of export -- unless you take your shirt off and give it to the furrener or lie down on his scanner to scan your bar codes (or maybe let him take a picture of the bar codes). :-) It was the late 70's when an over-enthusiastic person from NSA complained to the IEEE that it was about to hold a conference including foreign nationals at which crypto would be discussed. This is clearly in violation of the ITAR (dissemination of controlled technical data). The IEEE generally thumbed its nose at the NSA person and shortly thereafter (1980) the ICAR was founded and CRYPTO conferences were held. CRYPTO includes multiple attendees from the crypto services of (former) (?current?) unfriendly governments. (is France friendly? :-) It also has multiple NSA attendees -- so it's not going on in secret from the gov't.
I might add, however, that two days ago I wore my RSA shirt to my sound design class, where the guy I happened to sit down next to recognized it, was familiar with what it stood for, and knew all about the Zimmerman case; not because he was a crypto enthusiast or a comp sci major, but because he works for customs at Baltimore-Washington International Airport.
This event really changed my point of view considering ITAR... I figured that it was just one of those dumb laws that _nobody_ really paid much attention to except for the FBI and that was only because they were looking for a way to nail Zimmerman for writing good crypto. I had assumed that ITAR was something that customs agents/L. E. O's/etc. learned about, took a test on it, then forgot about it the next day.
Interesting... they _really_ are serious, aren't they?
Well ... I was at an AFCEA talk about export rules about 1.5 years ago and met a special agent from Customs. I asked him for Customs' policy on export of crypto S/W and technical data by USENET News, FTP and WWW. He seemed very interested -- wanted my phone number -- was going to come out to visit to see these sites offering this stuff. He never came out. I started e-mailing him asking him whether he was going to come get a tour of the net -- and he stopped replying. I can only assume that when he thought it was a single incident (like PRZ) which could be tracked, he might follow it -- but when I started talking about dozens or hundreds of people involved (e.g., all US persons talking crypto techniques on sci.crypt) he lost interest. I was going to show him the MIT and TIS sites which release crypto code. (Those sites have letters from the State Dept. saying that what we do to restrict export is OK -- even if it is the honor system.) I was going to show him how easy it is to get crypto from overseas. As I said, he lost interest. - Carl +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Carl M. Ellison cme@acm.org http://www.clark.net/pub/cme | |PGP: E0414C79B5AF36750217BC1A57386478 & 61E2DE7FCB9D7984E9C8048BA63221A2 | | ``Officer, officer, arrest that man! He's whistling a dirty song.'' | +---------------------------------------------- Jean Ellison (aka Mother) -+
participants (3)
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Carl Ellison -
Ian Goldberg -
K. M. Ellis