On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, John Banks wrote:

Just forget my request ... I'll find the help I need somewhere else. Get a life ... you're all sick. Sincerely, Mrs. Banks

Actually they are trying to piss you off. And they have won.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Me" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 4:12 PM Subject: Re: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank

...

----- Original Message ----- From: "Lori Banks"

...

If you are unable to help me, no response would have been better than the one you sent.

The response we sent is a narn bat sqaud, they should be arriving shortly.

Additionally, accomodations are being made for your son at a Cypherpunks safe house, where he will will have all the privacy he wants as he views his kidporn.

alan@ctrl-alt-del.com | Note to AOL users: for a quick shortcut to reply Alan Olsen | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys. "In the future, everything will have its 15 minutes of blame."

On 23 Jan 2001, at 19:00, Roy M. Silvernail wrote:

At 04:09 PM 1/23/01 -0800, you wrote:

...

On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, John Banks wrote:

...

Just forget my request ... I'll find the help I need somewhere else. Get a life ... you're all sick. Sincerely, Mrs. Banks

Interesting that Senor Banks signs his email Mrs.. perhaps John IS Mrs Banks..? This demands an Onion-type headline.. Whoever comes up with the best will have my, um, undying admiration. OK, OK, and my password cracking software. sparkane

...

Actually they are trying to piss you off.

And they have won.

IIRC, the canonical response is

YHBT, YHL, HAND

(feeling acronymical today)

While I almost always refrain from posting in petty flame wars, this is something I feel pretty strongly about, so...

First, I agree that Frank's response was most likely NOT the most professional or courteous response to your question. However, you argue that talking is not the answer here, and I most vehemently disagree. I was raised with good moral standing, and I do think I know right from wrong. However I did not learn these things by being completely isolated from the things in the world which are damaging.

Deception, filth, and dishonesty come from silence. Open communication, by simple definition of the term, serves to counteract these things. Perhaps the answer isn't total isolation or silence, but to simply communicate your message differently. I also believe that a parent's *number one* responsiblity in caring for their child is to protect them. However, what will happen when that child (no longer a child) enters the real world, where these things are NOT isolated from him anymore? Innocence only lasts as long as ignorance. What *will* make your son determine right from wrong is the knowledge you provide now, today and tomorrow, about these things.

I'm not flaming you or telling you how to raise your son, anymore than I would want someone telling me how to raise mine. (FWIW I am not a parent) But I cannot agree that this is the right approach. I can see religion is a strong force in your life. I don't share similar beliefs personally, but I will fight to the death to protect someone's right to believe what they choose. My suggestion is to perhaps teach your message in this framework, the keyword being /teach/. communicate. Share what you know, what you learned from experience in your life, with your son. ONLY with that kind of open teaching and leadership will your son have the ability to make those moral decisions on his own.

Oh -- the general feeling you received from the list regarding hacking your son's .pwl files come from most of us thinking it's wrong to do that. We all were taught, and learned, because someone took the time to share with us what they knew. No one is suggesting you let your son run rampant through porn sites and the like, just that we've been there and know from personal experience that approach will accomplish nothing.

Anyway, some food for thought...

- Ralph Forsythe ralph@centerone.com

On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Lori Banks wrote:

...

Mr. Blank Frank,

I simply asked for your assistance -- none of your repulsive filth was due me. It's people like you -- or the perception that you tried to give me of you that I am trying to protect my son against. When deception, filth, dishonesty, and the such as you have displayed rule this world ... when talking isn't the answer, a parent has the responsibilty to care for their child. Perhaps you are not a parent, or you never had a parent that cared enough to protect -- but, I am one that will fight to the bitter end to protect the innocence of my children. I simply asked for you assistance in cracking the .pwl file and your response was nothing to do with that request. If you are unable to help me, no response would have been better than

Mr. Forsythe, I couldn't agree with you more! Thanks for your response ... I'm not sure where anyone got the idea that I'm doing this behind my son's back, ... because I am not ... we've discussed these issues at length .... thanks again, Mrs. Banks ----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: "Ralph Forsythe" To: "Lori Banks" Cc: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 7:03 PM Subject: Re: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank the

one you sent. I'm sorry that misery seems to emmanate from you -- there's a Peace that can be found in Your Creator ... may He bless you today.

...

Sincerely, Mrs. Banks

...

"Lori Banks" writes:

...

I am a concerned parent that has stumbled upon information that is

not

...

...

good >regarding my teen and the Internet. Could you help me find out what these >passwords are or how to work that program?

We have checked our records, and he is in fact running a homo-necro-bestial paedophile ring when he's not smuggling heroin for Osama. He does not seem to be money-laundering, he gets paid in Semtex, so chill out, bitch. Besides, snooping is so *rude*, why don't you just talk to him?

Mr. May, Actually ..... he tells me that he hasn't forgotten it at all .... he says that he knows that he should allow me to have access, that he's being stubborn, and that he doesn't know why he's not giving it up ... must be a "Hackers Oath" or something that's not allowing him to divulge it ... I think that he's hiding something personally .... something that will hurt our relationship -- what he doesn't realize, of which I've tried dilligently to explain to him is that I love him unconditionally -- whatever he's got ... I'm in there for the long run and we'll be better people when we resolve the conflict!! ... I understand certain temptations, desires, ect ... of course, I haven't told you that he has developed a hackers website in which he has made some wonderful programs ... beautiful programming, I mean ... but they are programs that flood the chatrooms -- "just to see if I could do it" ... and a ban program ... "they banned me for flooding and I just want to play the game ... so I had to create a ban program" ... see, I told you that he's very bright!! .... just want to see him use it for a good purpose ... one that he can look back on and feel accomplishment..... so does this light give anymore fuel to someone's thoughts? Thanks again, Mrs. Banks ----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: "Tim May" To: Cc: "Lori Banks" Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 7:40 PM Subject: Re: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank

At 8:10 PM -0500 1/23/01, Lori Banks wrote:

...

Mr. Forsythe,

I couldn't agree with you more! Thanks for your response ... I'm not sure where anyone got the idea that I'm doing this behind my son's back, ... because I am not ... we've discussed these issues at length .... thanks again, Mrs. Banks

Ah, your son _forgot_ his password. I see. As you are not doing anything behind his back, you must be working with him on cracking the password files which he has forgotten.

Wouldn't want either of you to not have access to those files!

Good luck,

--Tim May -- Timothy C. May tcmay@got.net Corralitos, California Political: Co-founder Cypherpunks/crypto anarchy/Cyphernomicon Technical: physics/soft errors/Smalltalk/Squeak/agents/games/Go Personal: b.1951/UCSB/Intel '74-'86/retired/investor/motorcycles/guns

Dear Me, I'm his Mother ... he is my business-- thus, his business is my business to a degree!! I know that many people do not feel the same way ... it's easier to let him hide behind the door than to confront the issue ... but his health and welfare, spiritually, physically and emotionally are more important to me than a little bit of conflict! And ... just to let you know ... he respects me more than to tell me to ... whatever that means ... but, I have a feeling it's not nice. Thanks for your comments though ... Blessings, Mrs. Banks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Me" To: "Lori Banks" ; Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 10:21 PM Subject: Re: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank

----- Original Message ----- From: "Lori Banks"

...

he says that he knows that he should allow me to have access, that he's being stubborn, and that he doesn't know why he's not giving it up

What he means, is that he doesn't want to share his password because he feels it is none of your business. He is also reluctant to tell you to FOAD.

...

must be a "Hackers Oath" or something that's not allowing him to divulge it ...

One of those 'or something's, probably.

...

I think that he's hiding something personally

Duh.

I'm considering developing an asm prototype of a braid group-based encryption/decryption pki engine. The basic story behind braid group mathematics seems to imply much faster encryption/decryption engines. Before I spend the next month working through this, does anyone know of a braid group-based encryption/decryption engine? Did it work? Any cryptanalysis on this? Also, does anyone have any stats on the performance of popular pki systems? I'm specifically looking for #s regarding number of keys which can be generated by one vendor vs. another vendor's products (on similar hw platforms.) Any clue where I might find this info (other than by paying Giga or Meta $3K for a research report)? Cheers- Phillip

----- Original Message ----- X-Loop: openpgp.net From: "Ralph Forsythe" To: "Lori Banks" Cc: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 10:25 PM Subject: Re: Excuse me, Mr. Blank Frank

These programs are not what I'd consider to be hacking programs, per se. They are not gaining illegal access on anything, or doing any damage. He might be royally annoying some people on the net, but that's about it. I agree that it's not specifically hacking ... yet .... it's the principle behind it -- the gaming site sets up certain rules, he doesn't like the rules and goes around the rules to do what he wants .... not only does he do that for himself, but he then, puts his unban program on his website and invites other people to break the rules with him ... now, seriously, would you allow your daugther to participate in an activity that she's been banned from and then allow her to set the example before others and encourage them to do the same thing? .... I guess you wouldn't call it ... illegal ... here's another instance .... he actually boasts that he has "hacked" into other peoples' computers ..... isn't that computer space private property -- would you want someone snooping through your files?? Granted, he doesn't do it for destructive reasons ... I believe that he's just seeing if he can .... and ... actually, in the long run ... if he is to protect computing environments that he is responsible for ... it's good to know how the enemy attacks to prevent being attacked -- which is his defense .... but it's mostly the idea of ... trespassing into others' private space and the principle behind it..... what's your opinion on that, please? OK --- I'm putting this in bold just so its' easy to read ... if, in cryptographic circles this means something (:0) ) ... no intent here ... gotta watch these guys on the list .... I'm coming in peace with a white flag ....

Actually, kudos to your son ... You have to understand that most people using the programs like your son's have never taken the time to learn how they work, but just download them and use them. Very few people take the time to write the code themselves; to learn how the processes take place, or why what's happening is the way it is. yes ... he's very motivated and for that I am encouraging him ... I do not want to crush his desire to learn and educate himself .... he's got a gift for computing and the curiosity to learn -- and, he's not involved with alot of the other junk out there that a majority of teens are these days ... for that I am very thankful.... I believe that has to do with his raising. He knows that his life is special and wants to work towards what will benefit him and others most within the will of the Lord.

I'd imagine quite a few people on this list have, at one time or another, written programs that do things to piss people off, but in the end cause no real harm. Some of us have written programs to crack password files even, just to "see if we can". That doesn't mean we're out there downloading passwords and breaking into sites worldwide. (Well, most of us anyway...) ... snicker, snicker .... I understand this .... I just happen to be one of those people that would rather serve others than cause them stress and such ... but the "if we can" ... is typically living on the edge ... cracking Pandora's box just to see what might be in there ....

To be honest, it's exactly because I was able to tinker and try these things out that I have a good paying job in the computer security field, am respected by my peers, and continue to accomplish new things. I *absolutely* look back on my past and feel accomplishment. If your son was posting script kiddie crap like "I 0wn j00 l0053r5" (I owned you loosers, in english) on web sites that would be different. He's already above that. And that "hackers oath" is also exactly what defines the line between maliscious and constructive behavior. .... I want him to look back at what he does and feel that same accomplishment .... he did get the term "lamers" off of some of his zone friends ... are you familiar with that gaming website ... zone.net? Any information one way or another about it's content, environment, etc ... what I've seen is not that great.

I don't know you, and I don't know your son. But at least in regards to this, DEFINITELY encourage him to keep at it if he likes it. He'll likely land a great job someday because of it. Just make sure he knows where to draw the line between constructive learning and illegal activity that tends to make cops come to your house...

(Man I just feel all warm and fuzzy all of a sudden....)

.... thanks for the time .... I've enjoyed your comments .... Blessings, Mrs. Banks

- Ralph

On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Lori Banks wrote:

...

Mr. May,

Actually ..... he tells me that he hasn't forgotten it at all .... he says that he knows that he should allow me to have access, that he's being stubborn, and that he doesn't know why he's not giving it up ... must be a "Hackers Oath" or something that's not allowing him to divulge it ... I think that he's hiding something personally .... something that will hurt our relationship -- what he doesn't realize, of which I've tried dilligently to explain to him is that I love him unconditionally -- whatever he's got ... I'm in there for the long run and we'll be better people when we resolve the conflict!! ... I understand certain temptations, desires, ect ... of course, I haven't told you that he has developed a hackers website in which he has made some wonderful programs ... beautiful programming, I mean ... but they are programs that flood the chatrooms -- "just to see if I could do it" ... and a ban program ... "they banned me for flooding and I just want to play the game ... so I had to create a ban program" ... see, I told you that he's very bright!! .... just want to see him use it for a good purpose ... one that he can look back on and feel accomplishment..... so does this light give anymore fuel to someone's thoughts?