[SAGA-RG] OGF 18 - SAGA Minutes

Tue Sep 19 11:58:42 CDT 2006

Quoting [Craig Lee] (Sep 19 2006):
> 
> All,
> 
> I did talk to Hanoch Eiron (OGF's new VP of Marketing) about SAGA.
> The OGF plan is to produce a Grid Landscape document (this is separate
> from the TSC Technical Roadmap doc) that identifies how OGF (and its
> work results) fits into the technical marketplace, etc.  I specifically 
> suggested
> to Hanoch that we include SAGA in that Landscape document.  We should
> defintely have some follow-up conversations with him.

That would indeed be useful - thanks for starting that
discussion!

> On a more technical note, GridSolve will be developing the data handles
> concept for its use.  Perhaps we can have a discussion about GridRPC+DHs
> and SAGA at OGF-19?  Given that GridSolve/NetSolve has a GridRPC
> API at this point, and that SAGA has a GridRPC class, it might also be
> useful to think about how things like security and discovery are handled
> in various implementations (and exposed to the user).

Yes, definitely!  I expect that the DH part of GridRPC will
give us much more headache than the RPC class itself :-)
Will be interesting!

Thanks, Andre.

> --Craig
> 
> 
> At 06:34 AM 9/19/2006, Pascal Kleijer wrote:
> >Hello all,
> >
> >Here are the minutes of the two sessions held at OGF in Washington DC.
> >
> >**********************************************************************
> >
> >Session: SAGA I
> >Time: Tuesday 12 September 2006, 10:00-11:30 AM
> >Place: Washington Convention Center - Room 155
> >Attendees: ~15
> >Steering: Shantenu Jha
> >Notes: Pascal Kleijer
> >Phone: Andre Merzky
> >
> >Administration:
> >---------------
> >IPR
> >SAGA Status and history for newbie.
> >State of the RG and the WG, API v1.0 submission after GGF 18.
> >
> >SAGA Look & Feel:
> >-----------------
> >Andre: Simple and quick overview of the Look and Feel (L&F) aspects of the 
> >specification. What is in and what not.
> >
> >Ron: Does Java implementation interacts with GT4?
> >Andre: CoG might be interacting but GT4 is not indented.
> >Shantenu: Might be in the future by some group in the UK.
> >
> >Andre: Brief explanation of the slides. A more detailed explanation of the 
> >Interface & Class hierarchy. Discussion first focuses on the L&F, and then 
> >the functional API.
> >
> >Q: Where is the document in Grid forge?
> >A: The SAGA-Core-WG documents section should contain it; it is found in 
> >the SAGA-RG documents section.
> >TODO: Synchronize both projects in Grid forge to cross point the relevant 
> >documents.
> >
> >Q: What happens if a method in the specification doesn't have an 
> >underlying implementation?
> >A: Then the implementation is not compliant with the spec.
> >Q: What then?
> >A: We can throw an exception. This is in the spec document, the General 
> >Discussion section.
> >
> >Q: Discussion of the BES state model and SAGA is there compatibility? A: 
> >yes, there are some additional states.
> >
> >Discussion of COMPLIANT but INCOMPLETE, NOT COMPLIANT. Can be found in the 
> >document.
> >
> >Q: L&F is not an appropriate name; something better (bit mis-leading)?
> >R: "Foundation" or "Principle" might be a better? Needs to think about it! 
> >One proposal is to replace it with 'Principles of Foundations'
> >TODO: Fire this issue on the ML for future discussion.
> >
> >Q: Can we break down into namespace or blocks to support sub-sets to be 
> >implemented? This could allow partial implementation.
> >R: Yes this is already possible even if there is no clear namespace 
> >definition.
> >
> >TODO: Andrew Grimshaw pointed: SAGA should send experiences to OGF SC 
> >about compliance.
> >
> >TODO: FIXME must be removed before the document is sent to the OGF SC.
> >
> >Q: Is this document supposed to help the developer or make then have head 
> >aches?
> >R: No we try to help them as much as we can.
> >
> >TODO: Get feedback is important to improve it, seek feedback as much as 
> >possible.
> >
> >Q: What middleware is supposed to be supported?
> >R: C++ version should support GT4 in the future.
> >e.g., OMII implementation supports their stack, though that might not be 
> >so in the future.
> >Remark: Vendors support needed to develop bindings to their platform.
> >Andrew Grimshaw: Go to customers, all vendors were involved.
> >
> >This is a problem that OGF in general has to help tackle. It is not only a 
> >SAGA task. OGF SC needs to get involved as well.
> >
> >Why not use the MPI model? Take the vendors together, it that feasible 
> >right now?
> >
> >Customer: Stable API is a must, possibility to switch between implementations.
> >
> >SAS representative: Will be useful if it provides all functionality
> >(i.e., don't want to have to depend on different APIs). Equally don't want 
> >statically linked libraries!
> >
> >Go directly to the customers (e.g., Banks, Boeing, TeraGrid...), not just 
> >vendor, to ask them if they need it and how they need it. Use the 
> >customers to push ISV to support SAGA.
> >
> >TODO: Shantenu Jha needs to take contact with several people for future 
> >discussions. Business card taken: SAS, Intel, Qualcomm & GSI
> >
> >Chris: better framework to help quick implementation for sub-sets of the 
> >API. Platform could focus on the just Job Mgmt
> >
> >Adoption:
> >---------
> >Steven: SAGA should be pushed in the OGF technical strategy committee 
> >(document in the pipeline). See the TSC.
> >- SAGA finds important mention in the OGFs Tech Strategy committe
> >
> >Q: SAGA in GIN?
> >A: Steven Newhouse mentions that there is considerable debate ongoing
> >
> >Marketing material to promote SAGA is a necessity to make it pushed 
> >forward. It should not be an API technical document for developers but a 
> >manager type document.
> >
> >Q: Who should SAGA approach first: Vendor, Customer or ISV?
> >
> >EGEE Earth science at the Frauenhofer Institute (SCAI) is interested in 
> >testing SAGA.
> >
> >TODO: Seek contact with them to see what can be done.
> >
> >Andre: GT4, EGEE (gLight), NAREGI, etc. (big projects) should provide a 
> >binding to help push the project.
> >
> >
> >Steven: SAGA is client side stuff thus we should promote that in the 
> >marketing.
> >
> >(SAS) provide a new use case about their needs. Grid Monitoring is 
> >important to them.
> >
> >TODO: Send use case canvas to them (Shantenu Jha)
> >
> >Next session expectations:
> >* Streaming
> >* Messaging
> >* Next step
> >* Marketing material
> >
> >There were offline discussions with SAS representative and with RAL 
> >representative about information services.
> >
> >Session closed at 11h30.
> >
> >**********************************************************************
> >
> >**********************************************************************
> >
> >Session: SAGA II
> >Time: Tuesday 12 September 2006, 13:30-15:00 PM
> >Place: Washington Convention Center - Room 155
> >Attendees: ~12
> >Steering: Shantenu Jha
> >Notes: Pascal Kleijer
> >Phone: Andre Merzky
> >
> >Administration:
> >---------------
> >Agenda Bashing
> >IPR
> >Session rescheduling
> >
> >Streaming:
> >----------
> >Remark: Typo in section 3.12 GWD-R.72: "627" at the intro of the paragraph.
> >
> >Q: Juelich VISIT group, in their implementation wants to explore 
> >extensions in the stream API.
> >R: Some can be covered in the messaging API.
> >
> >Q: Is their any group using the API?
> >R: Yes at LSU is working on visualization apps using the streams.
> >
> >Their use case did not cover their new needs. SSH tunneling might be 
> >necessary inn the future.
> >
> >TODO: Juelich can be put in contact directly with John Shalf for more 
> >details and getting things moving on.
> >Update: Done (Shantenu Jha)
> >
> >Messaging:
> >----------
> >Intro from Andre about this API.
> >
> >Q: Did the API solve the visualization uses cases?
> >R: Yes it did. Large messages support causes some problems at the 
> >implementation level but manageable.
> >
> >Q: How can we do bi-directional streaming through one tunnel?
> >R: This is an implementation issue. The API doesn't care.
> >
> >Q: Any thoughts on this?
> >TODO: Put things on the ML for more detailed feedback. Clean up stuff then 
> >post.
> >
> >Next Step:
> >----------
> >Platform: Symphony presentation at GGF 17. Platform is looking for an API 
> >for their product (Symphony).
> >
> >Q: Is any other person interesting in this extension? Possible solution is 
> >working on the SAGA L&F from Platform side.
> >
> >Q: Performance important?
> >R: Important to critical.
> >TODO: Remind Chris to post his proposal on the ML before the next call.
> >
> >Marketing:
> >----------
> >TODO: get contact with Steven Newhouse and Andrew Grimshaw about what to 
> >put in the next marketing material flier. Pascal takes the job.
> >
> >CPR:
> >----
> >Quick overview of what it is!
> >TODO: Send CPR document to the SAGA ML (Derek's job).
> >Update: Done
> >Closing Remarks: Any contribution for getting the SAGA out to the outside 
> >is welcome.
> >
> >Session close at 14:30.
> >
> >**********************************************************************
> >
> >k-pasukaru at ap.jp.nec.com
> >--
> >   saga-rg mailing list
> >   saga-rg at ogf.org
> >   http://www.ogf.org/mailman/listinfo/saga-rg
-- 
"So much time, so little to do..."  -- Garfield